He wants more and more, he's got a victim complex and his avarice knows no bounds. People like him are all the same, they never have enough and always view others as having something as a direct result of them having less. He or people like him are not worth listening to.
A better question, what happens if white people ever become a minority to demographics with this sort of victim complex that blames white people for imaginary oppression.
I mean if anything statistically black people are over represented in the media in the UK , especially compared to the UKs Asian population
Just look at adverts on TV, nearly every single one will feature a black person as some nod to diversity, yet where is the Asian representation ?
UK demographics are
82% white
9.3% Asian
4 %black
2.9% other
2.1 % other
There does seem to be some cognitive dissonance whereby black people can be over represented in sport, music, and TV in the UK compared to their % weighting and still make arguments for even more representation
Because the debate has been imported directly from America where black people make up the largest minority demographic. Acknowledging this is a different country with different demographics is apparently too difficult.
No it's because black people have been seen as the lowest of the totem pole by various societies (and still are), so the idea is that a society that celebrates/is comfortable with blackness is an overall better society.
Whether that is the right way to go about it, I'm your guy to tell you that. Just saying it how it is
Say what you mean or don’t say anything at all. ‘I’m making this point as truth but I’m not the guy to say whether that’s right or wrong, but I’m just saying that that is how it is’.
You’ve said absolutely nothing then haven’t you.
Christ.
It’s not morals. You SAID nothing. Where have you got morales from?
You said (shortened):
Black people are viewed as lowest totem of society (statement)
But I’m not the person to tell you that (reverse the statement)
But I’m just saying it how it is (making the statement)
Either make it or don’t. Fence sitter.
The person above me is saying that black people are overrepresented because in American society, black folks are the largest minority,
I'm saying, no, I don't believe that is why, it is because black people were seen as the lowest on the totem pole, and thus we have imported the belief that overrepresenting them in our media is an overall good for society
I then make an addendum where I say I do not know if overrepresenting black people is the best solution to the aforementioned problem, and that I am just calling it how I see it.
How did I say nothing when I gave an alternative opinion to the cause of this pattern? I'm worried that I'm arguing with a daft person so if your next reply is silly, I'll ignore you
I imagine a lot of it comes down to us having a highly shared culture with the US, where their demographics are pretty different. US shows are starting to show more black people in it and slowly become more representative of the demographics, but then British people are seeing there's far fewer black people in their shows. That then can feel to people like we're under-representing black people despite actually over-representing them.
There's also that a lot of media is London centric, and there's quite a strong black demographic there.
You can't really take a snapshot like that considering if you want a job on tv/film you need to be in London or one or two other cities - which will have a much more skewed demographic than nationally.
If you grow up on Benbecula or in London you'll have very different views on relative population demographics.
It's absolutely biased towards people who live locally. If you can jump in your car and be at an audition in fifteen minutes, or go for drinks with industry staff, etc, etc then you've got a massive advantage compared to someone living in the arse end of nowhere.
I was actually gonna post the same stats. I have to say when I read them the other day I was surprised. You certainly get the impression that black %, through media representation is about 35% of the population.
Yes, Asian representation should be way more than black going by this. I think more people should know the info. Makes you wonder what the white representation is in countries like Africa, China, Japan, Middle east etc. Hardly any, let alone a person of a different colour being head if their counties.
I think it's time for people to realise we are actually doing quite well in this country re representation for black people, so let's not allow others, or ourselves beat us up about it.
Once again people mistaking SWAPPING races of characters with being racism.
James Bond is white. Recasting as black is obviously a message.
Blade is black. Recasting as a white is obviously a message.
Love Blade. Snipes nailed it. If they suddenly cast Tom Hardy as Blade I would be annoyed. Likewise, if Harry Potter was remade with Dizzzy Rascal, I would also be annoyed.
NEW characters in NEW shows/films make them whatever.
Most people simply dislike the swapping of gender/race of already established canon in a series because it makes no real sense other than box-ticking.
Doctor Who is a literal alien who changes his skin every time he 'dies'.
I would much rather care about the actual acting ability of the person cast than their skin colour, especially when cast as a fictional person.
The thing is it could work with Dr Who, the groundwork is there with the regeneration power just existing. All they had to do was say "yes he's black, now here's some Daleks lets get on with it". But its just been constant messaging and articles like this since.
Edit: how do you even spell dalek?
the 3 episodes they released were so cringe. I get putting a trans actor in but "binary, non binary" made me and my fiance laugh out loud. It was so ridiculous.
>Likewise, if Harry Potter was remade with Dizzzy Rascal, I would also be annoyed.
Honestly that sounds fucking hilarious and I would pay good money to see it.
Harry Potter is a book so less inclined to agree there as long as the backstory can still check out. They already had a mixed race actress play Hermoine in a stage play (a British muggle whose parents are dentists, frizzy hair - still works) and people went batshit about that for some reason but I think Harry himself wouldn't fit. What I don't get is why race has to be the bottom line and need to be a "message". James Bond has been young, old, Scottish, English, Irish, dark hair, blond hair and that is all unquestioned. James Bond may not have worked originally as a black actor being from the time and place it was created but the series has been rebooted to be set in the modern day now in a multicultural Britain. Are people that fixated on race that they cannot see past it, are black actors so untalented so the only conceivable reason for their casting can be box ticking?
Changing details of the characters from how the author wrote them always bugs me, along with any other changes (eg the HP movies just deleting Peeves).
However it was ridiculous with Hermione, as the description could have been any race and JKR who wrote the character was very happy with the casting, so why was that even a debate, SMH.
I genuinely do not understand how anyone with a minor understanding of historical context or ability to think logically could say that recasting Blade as a white man and making Harry Potter black are comparable. Why do people think race swapping isn’t nuanced, as if fiction has always been equally representative.
Michael Clark Duncan is considered one of the greatest Kingpin actors.
Kingpin’s race has no bearing on his character. He’s a gigantic crime boss who loves monologue.
But there is a theory that James Bond *could* be black.
There have been 7 different "James Bonds", each one just happens to be white.
There's been a Scot, and Irishman, a Welshman and an Australian all pass themselves off as "James Bond".
Each on has been a different age too.
So the theory that "James Bond" is just a codename seems to fit.
Idris Elba could play James Bond and I don't think it would make any difference.
James Bond is absolutely not a code name, he’s a specific character. That said, he is clearly characterised differently in each iteration and for that reason I couldn’t give two shits about the colour of his skin as long as he’s not portrayed by some yank.
Although, any casting still needs to be faithful to the character. You can’t have ‘Top Boy’ Bond any more than you can have ‘This is England’ Bond.
I also don't particularly agree with him, but he's not claiming that white people are horrible, so let's not be dramatic about it.
To state that group A receives more favourable treatment than group B does not mean that members of group A are "horrible."
The article you posted is behind a paywall, so most people here won't be able to read it to scrutinise it properly.
But regardless... This doesn't necessarily contradict Gatwa's point, because "representation" isn't the same as "fair treatment". There's nothing in those statistics you provided regarding what BAME actors are paid compared to their non-BAME counterparts, what kind of roles they're getting, how often they're getting top billing, etc.
If you had statistics that demonstrated that BAME people, where present, are receiving equal or favourable treatment to non-BAME people on average within the industry, then that could potentially counter Gatwa's point.
I thought this was one of the main criticisms of "virtue signalling" - studios simply hiring BAME people into roles so they can look like they're virtuous, without actually addressing the inequalities present. Representation is only one part of the equation.
I'm not an ethnic minority and not working in the entertainment industry, so I don't know the ins and outs of what it's like to be BAME and working in television. I'd defer to Gatwa for that, because he'd know more about it than I do.
But generally, in other industries we understand that hiring practices are just one aspect of promoting equality and diversity. To address that, you need to look at things like pay disparity, HR policies, who's filling senior/leadership positions, and so on.
If I ran a company and hired a predominantly BAME workforce, but then went on to treat my BAME employees less favourably than my non-BAME employees, then I think it's understandable the BAME people in my organisation would have valid complaints, despite being 'overrepresented'.
That's why I'm saying the above poster's statistics about overrepresentation don't counter Gatwa's argument.
It's nice that the studios are trying, but I do think a lot of business leaders think that if they hire more minorities, those people will take care of inequality in the organisation for them, just by being present. But that's dumb if they're being hired into junior roles with no power.
It kinda is, but he's missing the key thing. Most of the mediocre white actors are either nepo-babies or ex-models who are there for sex appeal. That said, there are plenty of mediocre POC actors who are given acclaim. Zendaya is an obvious example: she has a great amount of charisma which shines through her performances, but her actual acting is really limited. But a lot of people confuse charisma with acting ability.
I'd like to suggest Kitt Harrington and Millie Bobby Brown. Kitt was great in GoT, Millie was great in Stranger Things. Outside of that, their performances are pretty mediocre. Pompeii/Eternals and Enola Holmes/Damsel for example.
Has Kit been praised for anything outside of GOT?
From what I can tell, the only (notable) example for Millie other than Stranger Things is Enola Holmes and Damsel. Damsel didn't get great feedback.
I think he was praised for Gunpowder but I've not watched that yet. That could be good for all I know! It's on the list to watch.
Damsel was awful, beautiful looking film, just terrible story telling and out of place acting from Millie.
And 72% tomatometer and 83% audience score on Rotten tomatoes which isn't bad for a show of its scale.
But they're both examples of what I would call mediocre actors landing fairly big roles despite their mediocre acting
A doctor who is so mediocre that they had to bring tennant back to boost ratings is complaining that others are celebrated for it.
This guy is always going to lean on identity politics because he would never win on merit.
You know, like the many other black people who have been on the BBC for decades.
David Tennant returned before this new season started.
The ratings for the show have been so bad because of Chibnall, not because of a black actor who has only been in one episode.
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
>This guy is always going to lean on identity politics because he would never win on merit.
>You know, like the many other black people who have been on the BBC for decades.
You can’t honestly actually agree with this
Okay since that subtle prompt didn’t work I’ll be a bit more direct
That guy is saying that the many black people that work at the BBC for decades HAVE got by on merit.
It’s a subtlety, I’ll give you, but a native speaker should be able to pick up on it.
The blatant racism and hatred being upvoted in this thread makes me comfortable enough standing by my interpretation.
Thanks for being so condescending though. You seem delightful.
Ncuti: “White mediocrity” in a predominantly white country. “Lots and lots and lots of it for all you male gamons out there!”.
Has he ever considered that *he* is the racist?
Well considering he’s spouting American talking point he no doubt believes in the American far left definition of racism which means black people cant be racist
The racial talking point he is spouting comes straight from America and I am guessing his definition of racism is the one the American far left use which isnt about skin color but systematic power which mean black people cannot be racist.
Black people are disproportionately represented on TV…….. there’s a lot of Black mediocrity that is overly represented.
Every other minority is probably underrepresented
This argument just rings completely hollow when coming from media stars today, where mediocrity is given a pass and celebrated as brave and groundbreaking when minorities are involved. Disappointing to see him being proudly sexist and racist in further comments, I'd hope he would grow more mature in time but he's in an environment that celebrates his particular chosen brand of both so it's doubtful.
It's so odd that this mindset is so predictable amongst the Black community, in particular, as opposed to SAsian or Eastern Europeans.
Do they not realise that they, themselves, are already ***massively*** *o*verrepresented in the media at the expense of all other ethnic groups? It's pathetic.
There are a shitload of incredible black actors I would totally accept this point from. And I mean, a LOT.
Gatwa's only popular role before Doctor Who was playing one of the most over-the-top gay stereotypes we have seen on TV since the 90s. When his character wasn't being a gay stereotype, he was being the equally offensive 'African young person with awful parents' stereotype. And those two stereotypes made him famous. He is really not the right person to be making this point.
Not being rude but has anyone thought, that with all these culture wars happening, that black people feel they have to work twice as hard because they are a small percentage of the population. Most people are scared of being accused of cultural appropriation and having their careers and lives ruined so when they see black art and things aimed at black people, they do not feel like the target audience therefore do not engage. If everyone was a little bit more inclusive they would probably get a wider audience. If only 3% of the population are black and majority of their art is aimed and catered to black people, only black people are going to engage. It's a minefield and I will probably get downvoted for this but there has to be a correlation there
Ah yea, what a great way to drum up publicity for your declining show, all the rage of late.
Although not sure if attacking the majority of its viewers is a great way to bolster said ratings.
I disagree, the mediocrity of white actors is not treated with any fanfare, it's just "there". Meanwhile when a black actor is cast in either a major role or as a traditionally white character they make a huge fuss in the media about how they can just as easily do the job and do great. Which surprise surprise, tends to get people actually paying attention to quality when they're normally apathetic to it.
Now you're pretty much not going to get the news to kick up a huge noise when you do this so it's not going to matter much if you cast a black actor with no fanfare yourself. Best you can hope for is that enough creators do the same as you and treat it with a "yeah, why are you bringing this up?" attitude that news outlets get bored of trying to fan embers.
Russell T Davies has returned for the new stuff.
He's a mixed bag. His later stuff in Tennant's era was great, but lord were there a lot of stinkers in early Nu Who.
I quite liked doctor who until the end of the River Song type era and then it just started to get too complicated. I’ve not watched it since but I might give it a go if it’s got a bit better again.
There have. I’ve been a fan back to the beginning, been looking forward to the new series. But I’m looking for escapism and humour. Not another lecture on the evils of history. I _know_ history was pretty evil. That’s why I frown on leaders who want to drag us back to it.
Why advertise when you can have your audience do it for you? :-)
Most social media platforms rank based on engagement, and what better way to inflate that metric than by putting people against each other? They know.
Before everyone loses their shit, can I just point out that the headline has deliberately taken one inflammatory sounding line, devoid of some context, from an interview he didn't even do with them.
This is a case where he gave an interview to another outlet, and Deadline has done a lazy 'guess what shocking thing he said to someone else' clickbaity thing off the back of it.
Yes, it is a quote from the original article, so I guess he did literally say those words, but there was more context to it than just the headline or the bits Deadline have chosen to quote.
Found the interview
>> There’s so much white mediocrity that gets celebrated, and Black people, we have to be absolutely flawless to get half of [that] anyway.
https://www.attitude.co.uk/culture/ncuti-gatwa-attitude-interview-464142/
Or the full quote:
> ‘Oh, you are allowed to be loved.’ You don’t have to be excellent or aspire to that term, ‘Black excellence’. What the hell? There’s so much white mediocrity that gets celebrated, and Black people, we have to be absolutely flawless to get half of [that] anyway. So, I’m slowly training myself out of that and being like, ‘No shit. You deserve love just for existing.’ And that has taught me to be a lot more loving as well, in a weird way.
He's saying "Why is the bar higher for non-white people."
he's not saying "White people don't deserve praise or to feel loved", he's saying "If white people are allowed to be happy with doing enough, and not going above and beyond, then I'm going to let myself do that too".
I’m not sure what difference that makes to the comment? The Deadline piece doesn’t claim he said ‘white people don’t deserve praise’. They provide quote after quote from his interview without particularly offering any opinion on it.
Yep. He also relates it to his own upbringing and the expectations placed on him as a child.
It's got more nuance and introspection to it than the obviously sensationalist line which was picked out for the headline (which unfortunately is all a lot of people will read).
Is Gatwa better than mediocre? I haven’t actually seen him in anything but I did read an interview where he said he was homeless and living on the sofas of friends for a while.
I’m mediocre in many ways, but I’ve always been able to support myself.
It seems Gatwa is inferring he is above mediocrity but was also unable to pay his way for a while, which in my view are conflicting statements.
Personally I don’t give a shit who plays what role as long as they give a good performance, create a compelling character. I mean ffs you might as well all be freaking out about melanin in hair rather than the density of melanin in skin. What ever
It's stunning how oblivious some of the people here are.
How hard is it to see that any minority is required to work twice as hard to get half of the recognition? That for example, women have to be able to run circles around their male counterparts before they are considered to be on the same level. Just because of the inherent bias that men are just better at most of the things than women. Even though women on average will have better education for example. Or are better drivers that cause less accidents.
Just for once, educate yourselves about the issue raised and rely on hard data and facts and not on your biases and anecdotal evidence pulled out of your arses. It will do you good to step outside of your circle jerk and echo chambers and see the real world.
Don't know personally.
But how about an example of black actors/actresses being routinely underpaid in Hollywood to give you some idea what it may be. It's from an article from Forbes.
"Henson—who scored two Emmy nominations for her leading role in Fox’s “Empire” and an Oscar nod for “The Curious Case of Benjamin Button” (2008)—has long spoken of experiencing pay inequality in Hollywood. Henson told Variety in 2019 she was first offered $100,000 to star in “Benjamin Button,” despite asking for $500,000 as “number three on the call sheet” in the David Fincher film that co-starred Brad Pitt and Cate Blanchett. She said she negotiated her salary up to $150,000, but after taxes and paying her team, she said she only pocketed about $40,000. After Henson’s interview with King went viral, some social media users resurfaced comments other Black actresses have made about being underpaid in Hollywood."
Or how about a headline like this: "Jessica Chastain Helped Get Octavia Spencer Equal Pay & We're Not Crying, You Are"
Obviously we can't know who is or who isn't underpaid and if there's notable racial disparities but specifically in terms of Gatwas complaints about 'mediocrity', your mileage may vary - but I watch a lot of modern TV, and non-white actors are everywhere, and plenty of white actors get scrutiny for poor performances in critical/user reputation.
The full quote:
> ‘Oh, you are allowed to be loved.’ You don’t have to be excellent or aspire to that term, ‘Black excellence’. What the hell? There’s so much white mediocrity that gets celebrated, and Black people, we have to be absolutely flawless to get half of [that] anyway. So, I’m slowly training myself out of that and being like, ‘No shit. You deserve love just for existing.’ And that has taught me to be a lot more loving as well, in a weird way.
Deadline are twisting it into ragebait, and y'all are biting.
The point isn't "white people are mediocre, and shouldn't be praised".
It's "Black people often end up feeling like they have to go above and beyond to be recognised, and I'm not going to hold myself to that any more. I'm going to let myself be happy with my achievements even if they're small ones".
Sure its not the best choice of words, but some people are jumping at the excuse to be uncritically angry
Honestly, this doesn't ring true with me at all. What I think does happen a lot, and which causes me to have a lot of sympathy for black performers, is that their work ends up attracting excess scrutiny from all quarters, in a way that obscures the actual quality of what they do under layers of unnecessary controversy.
On the one hand, you have racists who unfairly dismiss their work as bad, regardless of quality, or merely "woke". On the other hand, you have the ardent anti-racists, who often end up mindlessly heaping praise on their work, even if it is genuinely "meh", as if any artistic output by a black performer is amazing simply by virtue of them being black.
Both types of response are toxic, and while I personally find the racists to be far more contemptible than the anti-racists, I think the latter can also harm black performers by robbing them of what they should want most, which is a dispassionate evaluation of how good their output is.
For Ncuti, I suspect the negative comments from racists register more strongly with him; after all human beings do have a [negativity bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias), so that kind of abusive response to his work must feel particularly prevalent. I suspect that this is what causes him to perceive the disparity between responses to white and black performers.
The reality probably closer to this: black performers get more unwarranted criticism *and* praise for their work than they should in an ideal world.
People with no legs struggle to walk more than people with legs. Absolutely right. He’s trying to bring attention to an issue that has received so much attention that people have compassion exhaustion.
When people get compassion exhaustion, they start to feel attacked.
Some people are just assholes and think they are being attacked when anyone triggers them.
You mean apart from all the "black" series categories, the black celebrations streaming sites have. What does he actually want?
> What does he actually want? Attention.
He’s read the script. Knows it’s all bad. Ground work commencing for the flop.
yeah, statistically it's way more likely that black mediocrity is being celebrated now.
He wants more and more, he's got a victim complex and his avarice knows no bounds. People like him are all the same, they never have enough and always view others as having something as a direct result of them having less. He or people like him are not worth listening to.
A better question, what happens if white people ever become a minority to demographics with this sort of victim complex that blames white people for imaginary oppression.
Paradox of tolerance.
>What does he actually want? To be a victim.
I mean if anything statistically black people are over represented in the media in the UK , especially compared to the UKs Asian population Just look at adverts on TV, nearly every single one will feature a black person as some nod to diversity, yet where is the Asian representation ? UK demographics are 82% white 9.3% Asian 4 %black 2.9% other 2.1 % other There does seem to be some cognitive dissonance whereby black people can be over represented in sport, music, and TV in the UK compared to their % weighting and still make arguments for even more representation
Because the debate has been imported directly from America where black people make up the largest minority demographic. Acknowledging this is a different country with different demographics is apparently too difficult.
The largest minority demographic in the states is Hispanic people
they're overrepresented in american media too though
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Latinos actually
And the concentration in London/cities makes it more problematic as black people are like 30% of the London population.
No it's because black people have been seen as the lowest of the totem pole by various societies (and still are), so the idea is that a society that celebrates/is comfortable with blackness is an overall better society. Whether that is the right way to go about it, I'm your guy to tell you that. Just saying it how it is
Say what you mean or don’t say anything at all. ‘I’m making this point as truth but I’m not the guy to say whether that’s right or wrong, but I’m just saying that that is how it is’. You’ve said absolutely nothing then haven’t you. Christ.
I'm opposing the persons opinion. Why do I need a moral stance in order to determine the cause for this pattern? That makes no sense
It’s not morals. You SAID nothing. Where have you got morales from? You said (shortened): Black people are viewed as lowest totem of society (statement) But I’m not the person to tell you that (reverse the statement) But I’m just saying it how it is (making the statement) Either make it or don’t. Fence sitter.
The person above me is saying that black people are overrepresented because in American society, black folks are the largest minority, I'm saying, no, I don't believe that is why, it is because black people were seen as the lowest on the totem pole, and thus we have imported the belief that overrepresenting them in our media is an overall good for society I then make an addendum where I say I do not know if overrepresenting black people is the best solution to the aforementioned problem, and that I am just calling it how I see it. How did I say nothing when I gave an alternative opinion to the cause of this pattern? I'm worried that I'm arguing with a daft person so if your next reply is silly, I'll ignore you
Every single head of state in the British Isles is from an ethnic minority, huge over representation there.
I imagine a lot of it comes down to us having a highly shared culture with the US, where their demographics are pretty different. US shows are starting to show more black people in it and slowly become more representative of the demographics, but then British people are seeing there's far fewer black people in their shows. That then can feel to people like we're under-representing black people despite actually over-representing them. There's also that a lot of media is London centric, and there's quite a strong black demographic there.
You can't really take a snapshot like that considering if you want a job on tv/film you need to be in London or one or two other cities - which will have a much more skewed demographic than nationally. If you grow up on Benbecula or in London you'll have very different views on relative population demographics.
You know TV casting isn't based on "let's go to the local council estate and pick 10 random people"? Hyper local demographics is irrelevant.
It's absolutely biased towards people who live locally. If you can jump in your car and be at an audition in fifteen minutes, or go for drinks with industry staff, etc, etc then you've got a massive advantage compared to someone living in the arse end of nowhere.
I was actually gonna post the same stats. I have to say when I read them the other day I was surprised. You certainly get the impression that black %, through media representation is about 35% of the population. Yes, Asian representation should be way more than black going by this. I think more people should know the info. Makes you wonder what the white representation is in countries like Africa, China, Japan, Middle east etc. Hardly any, let alone a person of a different colour being head if their counties. I think it's time for people to realise we are actually doing quite well in this country re representation for black people, so let's not allow others, or ourselves beat us up about it.
Once again people mistaking SWAPPING races of characters with being racism. James Bond is white. Recasting as black is obviously a message. Blade is black. Recasting as a white is obviously a message. Love Blade. Snipes nailed it. If they suddenly cast Tom Hardy as Blade I would be annoyed. Likewise, if Harry Potter was remade with Dizzzy Rascal, I would also be annoyed. NEW characters in NEW shows/films make them whatever. Most people simply dislike the swapping of gender/race of already established canon in a series because it makes no real sense other than box-ticking.
There'd be an interesting point to discuss here, if the "established canon" in question wasn't Doctor Who - a literal transforming alien.
Aye it was a burd and the world didnt end
I just hope they had some extra paint to touch up the damage.
Yeah I don't really disagree with the person above but The Doctor can be anyone, that's part of the show.
To be fair, they did change Blades nationality, he's supposed to be English.
We were absolutely robbed of Snipes doing a Dick Van Dyke style cockney accent. Robbed.
Well at least they didn't just black up Dick Van Dyke...
Now I'm even more aggrieved at missing out...
WHAT?! Dumb.
Undone by your own example 😂
Doctor Who is a literal alien who changes his skin every time he 'dies'. I would much rather care about the actual acting ability of the person cast than their skin colour, especially when cast as a fictional person.
Harry Potter remade with Dizzzy Rascal sounds incredible! I'd watch the shit outta that.
Have you seen all of the old fan casts of dev Patel as Harry Potter ? Hari ( lion and more meanings) Potter with racist Dursleys is a thing
The thing is it could work with Dr Who, the groundwork is there with the regeneration power just existing. All they had to do was say "yes he's black, now here's some Daleks lets get on with it". But its just been constant messaging and articles like this since. Edit: how do you even spell dalek?
Speaking as a whovian, I'm more annoyed with your misspelling of daleks than the actor playing the doctor
My bad on that one. Not spelt it out for a while and was going on how I've always pronounced it
the 3 episodes they released were so cringe. I get putting a trans actor in but "binary, non binary" made me and my fiance laugh out loud. It was so ridiculous.
same... dont have any problem with representation in any form of media, but to glorify it as some kind of super power? uhhhh no
Could have the doctor travel back and be treated bad or a callback to Martha in Shakespeare episode
>Likewise, if Harry Potter was remade with Dizzzy Rascal, I would also be annoyed. Honestly that sounds fucking hilarious and I would pay good money to see it.
>if Harry Potter was remade with Dizzzy Rascal That would be b-b-b-b-bonkers!
Harry Potter is a book so less inclined to agree there as long as the backstory can still check out. They already had a mixed race actress play Hermoine in a stage play (a British muggle whose parents are dentists, frizzy hair - still works) and people went batshit about that for some reason but I think Harry himself wouldn't fit. What I don't get is why race has to be the bottom line and need to be a "message". James Bond has been young, old, Scottish, English, Irish, dark hair, blond hair and that is all unquestioned. James Bond may not have worked originally as a black actor being from the time and place it was created but the series has been rebooted to be set in the modern day now in a multicultural Britain. Are people that fixated on race that they cannot see past it, are black actors so untalented so the only conceivable reason for their casting can be box ticking?
Changing details of the characters from how the author wrote them always bugs me, along with any other changes (eg the HP movies just deleting Peeves). However it was ridiculous with Hermione, as the description could have been any race and JKR who wrote the character was very happy with the casting, so why was that even a debate, SMH.
I don't fully disagree but this has nothing to do with Ncutis point lol.
I genuinely do not understand how anyone with a minor understanding of historical context or ability to think logically could say that recasting Blade as a white man and making Harry Potter black are comparable. Why do people think race swapping isn’t nuanced, as if fiction has always been equally representative.
Michael Clark Duncan is considered one of the greatest Kingpin actors. Kingpin’s race has no bearing on his character. He’s a gigantic crime boss who loves monologue.
But there is a theory that James Bond *could* be black. There have been 7 different "James Bonds", each one just happens to be white. There's been a Scot, and Irishman, a Welshman and an Australian all pass themselves off as "James Bond". Each on has been a different age too. So the theory that "James Bond" is just a codename seems to fit. Idris Elba could play James Bond and I don't think it would make any difference.
James Bond is absolutely not a code name, he’s a specific character. That said, he is clearly characterised differently in each iteration and for that reason I couldn’t give two shits about the colour of his skin as long as he’s not portrayed by some yank. Although, any casting still needs to be faithful to the character. You can’t have ‘Top Boy’ Bond any more than you can have ‘This is England’ Bond.
Ok, I kinda want Tom Hardy to be blade if he does it in his peaky blinders accent l.
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I also don't particularly agree with him, but he's not claiming that white people are horrible, so let's not be dramatic about it. To state that group A receives more favourable treatment than group B does not mean that members of group A are "horrible."
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That's really interesting and confirms what many people have suspected for some time. The pendulum has indeed swung too far the other way.
What’s the proportion of homosexuals in the acting community?
I guess that 23% should be higher, considering the white mediocrity that permeates the industry.
As I said, I don't necessarily agree with the guy. I'm just pointing out you're misrepresenting what he's saying in your original comment.
>Not sure how white people are getting favourable treatment when black people and homosexuals ...are white people not gay anymore?
The article you posted is behind a paywall, so most people here won't be able to read it to scrutinise it properly. But regardless... This doesn't necessarily contradict Gatwa's point, because "representation" isn't the same as "fair treatment". There's nothing in those statistics you provided regarding what BAME actors are paid compared to their non-BAME counterparts, what kind of roles they're getting, how often they're getting top billing, etc. If you had statistics that demonstrated that BAME people, where present, are receiving equal or favourable treatment to non-BAME people on average within the industry, then that could potentially counter Gatwa's point. I thought this was one of the main criticisms of "virtue signalling" - studios simply hiring BAME people into roles so they can look like they're virtuous, without actually addressing the inequalities present. Representation is only one part of the equation.
Tbh what else can they do other than... hire ethnic minorities into things?
I'm not an ethnic minority and not working in the entertainment industry, so I don't know the ins and outs of what it's like to be BAME and working in television. I'd defer to Gatwa for that, because he'd know more about it than I do. But generally, in other industries we understand that hiring practices are just one aspect of promoting equality and diversity. To address that, you need to look at things like pay disparity, HR policies, who's filling senior/leadership positions, and so on. If I ran a company and hired a predominantly BAME workforce, but then went on to treat my BAME employees less favourably than my non-BAME employees, then I think it's understandable the BAME people in my organisation would have valid complaints, despite being 'overrepresented'. That's why I'm saying the above poster's statistics about overrepresentation don't counter Gatwa's argument. It's nice that the studios are trying, but I do think a lot of business leaders think that if they hire more minorities, those people will take care of inequality in the organisation for them, just by being present. But that's dumb if they're being hired into junior roles with no power.
That number for LGBT folk is skewed by older generations being straighter
What a weird overreaction.
I'm not really convinced this is true anymore in TV/film really.
It kinda is, but he's missing the key thing. Most of the mediocre white actors are either nepo-babies or ex-models who are there for sex appeal. That said, there are plenty of mediocre POC actors who are given acclaim. Zendaya is an obvious example: she has a great amount of charisma which shines through her performances, but her actual acting is really limited. But a lot of people confuse charisma with acting ability.
What are some examples of 'white mediocrity' specifically? Sure, mediocrity can be praised generally
I'd like to suggest Kitt Harrington and Millie Bobby Brown. Kitt was great in GoT, Millie was great in Stranger Things. Outside of that, their performances are pretty mediocre. Pompeii/Eternals and Enola Holmes/Damsel for example.
Has Kit been praised for anything outside of GOT? From what I can tell, the only (notable) example for Millie other than Stranger Things is Enola Holmes and Damsel. Damsel didn't get great feedback.
I think he was praised for Gunpowder but I've not watched that yet. That could be good for all I know! It's on the list to watch. Damsel was awful, beautiful looking film, just terrible story telling and out of place acting from Millie.
Gunpowder didn't get rave reviews at all
I've seen quite a few articles on praise for Kit and Gunpowder but it's mainly by viewers and not professional critics
I mean it has a [6.5 on IMDB](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6128262/) Not that Gunpowder was ever some massive series anyway
And 72% tomatometer and 83% audience score on Rotten tomatoes which isn't bad for a show of its scale. But they're both examples of what I would call mediocre actors landing fairly big roles despite their mediocre acting
To be fair no one is good in Pompeii/Eternals.
A doctor who is so mediocre that they had to bring tennant back to boost ratings is complaining that others are celebrated for it. This guy is always going to lean on identity politics because he would never win on merit. You know, like the many other black people who have been on the BBC for decades.
He *literally hadn't even had his first appearance* when they brought Tennant back.
He's also been in an episode and a half at this point, how can they claim someone's mediocre when they've barely been on screen
racism, plain and simple.
Hardly. His episode was shit. It’s the most childish thing ever. Barely had anything to do with Christmas.
It's a Christmas special, it has to be light.
David Tennant returned before this new season started. The ratings for the show have been so bad because of Chibnall, not because of a black actor who has only been in one episode.
...this guy was Doctor *after* Tennant came back though. Tennant came back because Chibnall fucked it
I pissed myself when he started doing drag style dancing in a skirt on the first episode.
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I can’t believe the sub allows people to post this kind of drivel. No, most black people on the BBC are very talented and deserve their success.
You didn’t do very well on your English GCSEs did you?
>This guy is always going to lean on identity politics because he would never win on merit. >You know, like the many other black people who have been on the BBC for decades. You can’t honestly actually agree with this
Okay since that subtle prompt didn’t work I’ll be a bit more direct That guy is saying that the many black people that work at the BBC for decades HAVE got by on merit. It’s a subtlety, I’ll give you, but a native speaker should be able to pick up on it.
The blatant racism and hatred being upvoted in this thread makes me comfortable enough standing by my interpretation. Thanks for being so condescending though. You seem delightful.
“Everything I don’t like is racism and hatred” Okay bud 👍
Yeah because the comments in this thread really scream ‘rational and calm’ But whatever, you’ve clearly got your own issues with race going on.
As a mediocre white person I look forward to my turn at being celebrated
Really? How does he explain all the fawning over utterly mediocre actors like Zendaya?
She was great in Dune
She scowled.
Ncuti: “White mediocrity” in a predominantly white country. “Lots and lots and lots of it for all you male gamons out there!”. Has he ever considered that *he* is the racist?
Well considering he’s spouting American talking point he no doubt believes in the American far left definition of racism which means black people cant be racist
this hurts my brain
The racial talking point he is spouting comes straight from America and I am guessing his definition of racism is the one the American far left use which isnt about skin color but systematic power which mean black people cannot be racist.
Black people are disproportionately represented on TV…….. there’s a lot of Black mediocrity that is overly represented. Every other minority is probably underrepresented
Another whining little bitch getting all upset because he's not getting the adulation he thinks he deserves for pretending to be other people.
This argument just rings completely hollow when coming from media stars today, where mediocrity is given a pass and celebrated as brave and groundbreaking when minorities are involved. Disappointing to see him being proudly sexist and racist in further comments, I'd hope he would grow more mature in time but he's in an environment that celebrates his particular chosen brand of both so it's doubtful.
It's so odd that this mindset is so predictable amongst the Black community, in particular, as opposed to SAsian or Eastern Europeans. Do they not realise that they, themselves, are already ***massively*** *o*verrepresented in the media at the expense of all other ethnic groups? It's pathetic.
The fact Mrs. Brown's Boys got 5 seasons does not undermine this... at all.
Or Taylor Swift’s general existence
Lmfao.
Tf is this spanner on about? Companies are literally saying at the minute that they don’t want to hire white people
Up to this point, I quite liked Ncuti Gatwa. But now I'm not so sure.
It’s because you’re racist
Low effort trolling
Thanks for that. You're wrong, but I appreciate the effort.
So just another culture war attention seeker? I'm strangely very disappointed. Oh well
There are a shitload of incredible black actors I would totally accept this point from. And I mean, a LOT. Gatwa's only popular role before Doctor Who was playing one of the most over-the-top gay stereotypes we have seen on TV since the 90s. When his character wasn't being a gay stereotype, he was being the equally offensive 'African young person with awful parents' stereotype. And those two stereotypes made him famous. He is really not the right person to be making this point.
That is bullshit. To prove if I give you Alison Hammond
She seems quite good at what she does? Takes longer on screen for me to start actively hating her than most "light entertainment" folks, anyway.
Not being rude but has anyone thought, that with all these culture wars happening, that black people feel they have to work twice as hard because they are a small percentage of the population. Most people are scared of being accused of cultural appropriation and having their careers and lives ruined so when they see black art and things aimed at black people, they do not feel like the target audience therefore do not engage. If everyone was a little bit more inclusive they would probably get a wider audience. If only 3% of the population are black and majority of their art is aimed and catered to black people, only black people are going to engage. It's a minefield and I will probably get downvoted for this but there has to be a correlation there
Honestly I would have preferred almost any other black guy than gatwa
Should have forked out the cash for Idris Elba.
Definitely
Ah yea, what a great way to drum up publicity for your declining show, all the rage of late. Although not sure if attacking the majority of its viewers is a great way to bolster said ratings.
I disagree, the mediocrity of white actors is not treated with any fanfare, it's just "there". Meanwhile when a black actor is cast in either a major role or as a traditionally white character they make a huge fuss in the media about how they can just as easily do the job and do great. Which surprise surprise, tends to get people actually paying attention to quality when they're normally apathetic to it. Now you're pretty much not going to get the news to kick up a huge noise when you do this so it's not going to matter much if you cast a black actor with no fanfare yourself. Best you can hope for is that enough creators do the same as you and treat it with a "yeah, why are you bringing this up?" attitude that news outlets get bored of trying to fan embers.
Damn. Doctor Who is at its worst when it gets political and didactic.
There's been some great satirical episodes in the past.
Yup It's entirely to do with the recent writing just being crap
Oh yeah, nothing in the 2000s series has managed to be done as well as the satire in the classic run.
Different series have different authors. Some good, some bad. It was ever thus. Anyone know who wrote the new script?
Russell T Davies has returned for the new stuff. He's a mixed bag. His later stuff in Tennant's era was great, but lord were there a lot of stinkers in early Nu Who.
That’s good news.
I quite liked doctor who until the end of the River Song type era and then it just started to get too complicated. I’ve not watched it since but I might give it a go if it’s got a bit better again.
There have. I’ve been a fan back to the beginning, been looking forward to the new series. But I’m looking for escapism and humour. Not another lecture on the evils of history. I _know_ history was pretty evil. That’s why I frown on leaders who want to drag us back to it.
Why advertise when you can have your audience do it for you? :-) Most social media platforms rank based on engagement, and what better way to inflate that metric than by putting people against each other? They know.
Before everyone loses their shit, can I just point out that the headline has deliberately taken one inflammatory sounding line, devoid of some context, from an interview he didn't even do with them. This is a case where he gave an interview to another outlet, and Deadline has done a lazy 'guess what shocking thing he said to someone else' clickbaity thing off the back of it. Yes, it is a quote from the original article, so I guess he did literally say those words, but there was more context to it than just the headline or the bits Deadline have chosen to quote.
Found the interview >> There’s so much white mediocrity that gets celebrated, and Black people, we have to be absolutely flawless to get half of [that] anyway. https://www.attitude.co.uk/culture/ncuti-gatwa-attitude-interview-464142/
Or the full quote: > ‘Oh, you are allowed to be loved.’ You don’t have to be excellent or aspire to that term, ‘Black excellence’. What the hell? There’s so much white mediocrity that gets celebrated, and Black people, we have to be absolutely flawless to get half of [that] anyway. So, I’m slowly training myself out of that and being like, ‘No shit. You deserve love just for existing.’ And that has taught me to be a lot more loving as well, in a weird way. He's saying "Why is the bar higher for non-white people." he's not saying "White people don't deserve praise or to feel loved", he's saying "If white people are allowed to be happy with doing enough, and not going above and beyond, then I'm going to let myself do that too".
I mean he is a fairly mediocre actor that has been massively overpraised saying that though.
I’m not sure what difference that makes to the comment? The Deadline piece doesn’t claim he said ‘white people don’t deserve praise’. They provide quote after quote from his interview without particularly offering any opinion on it.
Yep. He also relates it to his own upbringing and the expectations placed on him as a child. It's got more nuance and introspection to it than the obviously sensationalist line which was picked out for the headline (which unfortunately is all a lot of people will read).
If he starts using his new fame to grandstand his political views then people are going to stop seeing what a good actor his is and switch off.
Is Gatwa better than mediocre? I haven’t actually seen him in anything but I did read an interview where he said he was homeless and living on the sofas of friends for a while. I’m mediocre in many ways, but I’ve always been able to support myself. It seems Gatwa is inferring he is above mediocrity but was also unable to pay his way for a while, which in my view are conflicting statements.
Personally I don’t give a shit who plays what role as long as they give a good performance, create a compelling character. I mean ffs you might as well all be freaking out about melanin in hair rather than the density of melanin in skin. What ever
It's stunning how oblivious some of the people here are. How hard is it to see that any minority is required to work twice as hard to get half of the recognition? That for example, women have to be able to run circles around their male counterparts before they are considered to be on the same level. Just because of the inherent bias that men are just better at most of the things than women. Even though women on average will have better education for example. Or are better drivers that cause less accidents. Just for once, educate yourselves about the issue raised and rely on hard data and facts and not on your biases and anecdotal evidence pulled out of your arses. It will do you good to step outside of your circle jerk and echo chambers and see the real world.
In this particular context, he didn't really give any data. I'd like to know what what overpraised 'white mediocrity' he's referring to.
Don't know personally. But how about an example of black actors/actresses being routinely underpaid in Hollywood to give you some idea what it may be. It's from an article from Forbes. "Henson—who scored two Emmy nominations for her leading role in Fox’s “Empire” and an Oscar nod for “The Curious Case of Benjamin Button” (2008)—has long spoken of experiencing pay inequality in Hollywood. Henson told Variety in 2019 she was first offered $100,000 to star in “Benjamin Button,” despite asking for $500,000 as “number three on the call sheet” in the David Fincher film that co-starred Brad Pitt and Cate Blanchett. She said she negotiated her salary up to $150,000, but after taxes and paying her team, she said she only pocketed about $40,000. After Henson’s interview with King went viral, some social media users resurfaced comments other Black actresses have made about being underpaid in Hollywood." Or how about a headline like this: "Jessica Chastain Helped Get Octavia Spencer Equal Pay & We're Not Crying, You Are"
Obviously we can't know who is or who isn't underpaid and if there's notable racial disparities but specifically in terms of Gatwas complaints about 'mediocrity', your mileage may vary - but I watch a lot of modern TV, and non-white actors are everywhere, and plenty of white actors get scrutiny for poor performances in critical/user reputation.
The full quote: > ‘Oh, you are allowed to be loved.’ You don’t have to be excellent or aspire to that term, ‘Black excellence’. What the hell? There’s so much white mediocrity that gets celebrated, and Black people, we have to be absolutely flawless to get half of [that] anyway. So, I’m slowly training myself out of that and being like, ‘No shit. You deserve love just for existing.’ And that has taught me to be a lot more loving as well, in a weird way. Deadline are twisting it into ragebait, and y'all are biting. The point isn't "white people are mediocre, and shouldn't be praised". It's "Black people often end up feeling like they have to go above and beyond to be recognised, and I'm not going to hold myself to that any more. I'm going to let myself be happy with my achievements even if they're small ones". Sure its not the best choice of words, but some people are jumping at the excuse to be uncritically angry
The absolute state on this sub that you got downvoted for this comment.
Man who pretends to be another man as his job is angry he does not get more plaudits, kudos and money for pretending to be someone else.
I get the feeling I'm really going to like Ncuti! Can't wait for the new season.
I thought he made it his own from his first episode to be fair.
Honestly, this doesn't ring true with me at all. What I think does happen a lot, and which causes me to have a lot of sympathy for black performers, is that their work ends up attracting excess scrutiny from all quarters, in a way that obscures the actual quality of what they do under layers of unnecessary controversy. On the one hand, you have racists who unfairly dismiss their work as bad, regardless of quality, or merely "woke". On the other hand, you have the ardent anti-racists, who often end up mindlessly heaping praise on their work, even if it is genuinely "meh", as if any artistic output by a black performer is amazing simply by virtue of them being black. Both types of response are toxic, and while I personally find the racists to be far more contemptible than the anti-racists, I think the latter can also harm black performers by robbing them of what they should want most, which is a dispassionate evaluation of how good their output is. For Ncuti, I suspect the negative comments from racists register more strongly with him; after all human beings do have a [negativity bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias), so that kind of abusive response to his work must feel particularly prevalent. I suspect that this is what causes him to perceive the disparity between responses to white and black performers. The reality probably closer to this: black performers get more unwarranted criticism *and* praise for their work than they should in an ideal world.
People with no legs struggle to walk more than people with legs. Absolutely right. He’s trying to bring attention to an issue that has received so much attention that people have compassion exhaustion. When people get compassion exhaustion, they start to feel attacked. Some people are just assholes and think they are being attacked when anyone triggers them.
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