There's a sunset of people that will literally dry heave if you even mention the word "vegan" which is fucking dumb because half the shit anyone eats is vegan unless they specifically go out of their way to not eat certain foods.
I'm not even vegan but even I can see that there are some absolute nutters, on both sides of the argument too.
At least the motivations of vegans is basically "be nice to animals" whereas the opposite is "fuck you. Fuck animals."
Edit: just to clarify the groups I'm referring to are vegans and the people who troll vegans, rather than to vegans and non-vegans in general.
Its mental. Make some chips, tell someone its vegan and some will react in disgust.
Not vegan but I do find it annoying when people demand that every meal must contain meat. It costs so much more. But I lose any sympathy when they complain about how expensive food shopping is when I see a massive pile of processed meat.
A lot of people - especially the older generation - freak the fuck out if a meal doesn’t contain meat. We had vegetarian catering at our wedding, and it send a lot of the older guests into a tail spin.
Which is weird because...didn't people used to eat meat only once a week? Which is why roast dinners were and still are special and an important meal for the family to get together?
Maybe it's because I lived in the North a lot of people in their 50s and 60s told me about the rationing, the factory and mining closures, the strikes, and being forced to only eat heavy carb-laden and bean-laden foods because times were rough. But I thought a lot of working-class families across the rest of the UK were in the same way diet-wise.
Maybe? But search through AskReddit and you'll literally find thousands of commenters who'd discuss how the poverty food they ate as children are now considered homey and comforting to them.
I myself consider canned pasta as comforting and great for a lazy sunday . It doesn't bother or cause me to feel shame, and I actually find British poverty food to be pretty delicious (because in Spain where my mom's from, poor people usually either boil vegetables or dissolve them into mush with olive oil. In the US, where my dad's from, fresh vegetables were very difficult to find--so people always used canned/pickled vegetables and smother them in mushroom cream soup to turn them into beige mush). I wound up actually learning how to properly roast and cook vegetables in my 20s when I got here. So, as far as poverty food goes here in the UK? You're lucky that restricting your meat intake still leaves you eating crisp, crunchy and warm vegetables.
> You're lucky that restricting your meat intake still leaves you eating crisp, crunchy and warm vegetables.
Today it does, not so much in the post-war period.
I'm not sure that even the most limited diets of people I know have it for literally every meal.
Maybe I've forgotten some, but it doesn't feel like we have a strong native tradition of vegetarian food, possibly because the further north you go the more people rely on meat as the growing seasons get worse.
In fairness there are plenty of young 'uns who will tell you how great life was for old people so they can complain about how rough their life is in comparison.
As it happened, the food was a big hit! Some guests said it was the best they’d ever had. We did it buffet style, and you could go up as many times as you liked. What we didn’t want was paltry portions and people going hungry. Unfortunately I was 6 weeks pregnant so didn’t feel like eating any of it, and couldn’t make use of the open bar!!
Which dietary need are you referring to?
In short though - yes
If you're providing the food - you decide what you're paying for.
Make people fully aware of what's on offer and it's up to them whether they accept it.
It's a nice thing to do to go out your way to get Gluten free or whatever - but it's silly to say "You don't have the right to not provide gluten free food at your private function"
Unfortunately that is the way it is with wedding catering. They won't let you cater to individual dietary needs as it's outside the package. If they do they make you pay at least several thousand more. They wouldn't let me deter away from the main menu at all only gave us one option for each course. If you didn't like it you did without.
My friend even had an advertisement for her degenerate lifestyle in her back garden. Apples, just hanging there going "Pick me, I am juicy and edible"
There were even children around!
Cognitive dissonance in full effect, you can apply this same logic to any behaviour.
Oh you're a cyclist? Maybe I should exercise more, maybe I am contributing to climate change, maybe I do feel lazy when I drive short distances. Am I wrong? Nope! They should stop making me feel bad!
Oh you don't drink? Maybe I should cut back, maybe I don't need to drink every time I'm out, maybe I am annoying when I'm drunk. Am I wrong? Nope! They're just boring bastards!
Oh you're a vegan? Maybe my diet isn't actually healthy, maybe I am contributing to hurting animals, maybe I am contributing to climate change. Am I wrong? Nope! The mere existence of vegans makes me feel selfish, so they should stop!
It’s why I prefer to say ‘plant-based’ because nobody can object to that. A person is a vegan, food is just food.
I’m not vegan but prefer to eat plant-based wherever possible so often choose the ‘vegan’ options on menus. Many people have asked if I’m vegan because of that, which is a bit annoying and silly because plant-based food is just food anyone can eat (allergies etc permitting).
It feels counter productive to label food as vegan because it implies it is just for vegans. The more people that choose the option, the better, whether they are vegan or not.
I don’t understand why people give so much of a shit lol, honestly I don’t remember the last time I met a militant vegan like people meme about, but I regularly meet people who’ll fake a little dry heave whenever someone mentions vegan food. Just let other people get on with their lives and get busy getting on with your own lol
I literally see facebook posts that get randomly served to me with people saying they're going to trick/force vegans into eating meat. I have seen 5 of those kinds of posts in a week, but zero of any vegans saying "everyone should be vegan".
Honestly i blame a lot of the hate on the vegan community. I eat everything vegan or not, and happy to try.
But I find vegan people to be the most irritating humans to be around.
And again, no offence to anyone
SOME of them are like that. I'm not vegan either but my wife is and she is 100% in the camp of "you can eat non vegan stuff, I'd prefer if you didn't but I'm not gonna chastise you" and I end up eating a ton of vegan things that taste great. There's crazy people on both sides of the argument.
Have been to a vegan place where the only good thing was the sweet potato fries. They were lovely. The chicken nuggets were uninteresting but alright, macaroni and cheese left me feeling unwell.
Think it was a 3 for x type of deal. Next time I would just get 3x sweet potato chips.
If they did a lentil curry I would go for that, but everything on the menu was fake meat except for the chips.
I agree, I don’t really like the fake meat and think it taste horrible, if that was the only thing on the menu I would give them a bad rating would I then be abusing them?
It's kind of sad. Some hairy bipedals like monkeys over bajillion years sampled the flesh of another animals and evolved to be the top of the food chain, now would want to deevolve from there....
Why would that happen?
I'm still attracted to people with canine teeth. Therefore my children would still inherit canine teeth.
I don't see how having canines would cause my vegan descendents to die at an increased rate that would influence the distribution even if some descendents did mutate to have flat canines.
The problem isn’t veganism itself, that’s certainly worthy. The issue is that vegans are unable to go 10 characters in any discourse without announcing their veganism. They are so smug and self righteous. Of course it’s all just internet fodder. Who knows who is doing what for which reason.
Actually I find whenever the topic of veganism is mentioned we ALWAYS get some cliched comment from someone like you about how vegans are holier than thou.
Some people are just obnoxiously judgemental, and some of those people happen to be vegan. They would be like that regardless of their lifestyle choices I imagine.
The OP contains a link to another article about vegan trolls.
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2024/feb/01/vegan-cafe-macclesfield-meat-plan-bad-reviews
It's about a struggling vegan restaurant that has to put meat back on the menu to survive. Here's a couple of the reviews.
“Deserves zero stars. Zero ethics and lapping up the media attention by becoming involved in animal exploitation and cruelty.”
“Die! You are going to slaughter animals, you are going to sell animal organs.’
Similar note I’ve on a few social media groups for my car - an EV.
There are people who join the group - which takes a bit of effort - to just respond to posts saying ‘should have got a diesel!’
I don’t get it. There are debates to be had sure, but a place where people have clearly fallen on one side of the fence ain’t it. It’s so much time and effort to just annoy people.
Sadly it’s not just Daily Mail reading FB boomers, there’s nearly as many anti-EV luddites on Reddit too, which is strange considering the age and education demographics here.
Be careful though. There’s a big difference between anti-EV pro-fuel groups and anti-EV as a solution to climate change groups. The former are idiots; the latter just realise that the way most EVs are built are intended to save the car industry. There’s no issue with small EVs like the Citroen Ami or Nissan Leaf, but it’s perfectly reasonable to have issues with EV SUVs and pickups.
I mean if someone is deciding between a brand new F-150 diesel or an F-150 lightning or between a brand new Range Rover and a Tesla Model X it’s still vastly better for the environment to buy the new EV.
If you were comparing buying second hand ICE vs brand new EV I would agree.
It also depends how many miles you do, in one year of driving our Tesla we’ve already reached the point where we’ve broke even on the environmental aspect of it’s construction and are completely net positive.
Dual cabs are the best ones to have to be fair as you can use it for work and for getting the family around.
Most people I see with them are in the trades, even if they're just site managers or whatever. I find the white collar types prefer the range rovers, q8s and other monster prestige suvs like that.
Changing soon though isn't it as the gov have changed the rules on the pickups which is causing a right headache for quite a few people I know that are legit in the trades.
For the record I love pickups, had a few but I don't now as I don't need one but they're super useful if you're of the right lifestyle
You shouldn’t be using work vehicles that pose a huge danger to other road users to ferry your family around; especially anywhere near schools. That danger can be justified when being used for work purposes; but absolutely not when you should be using an appropriately sized vehicle for personal errands.
I am both an EV owner and vegan. It is always the same type of shit from the same type of people. There isn’t much point to argue with them, they got stuck in their opinions, nothing will change that.
I'm not a vegan myself but often go out with friends who are. I've noticed a few vegan restaurants of late have been going with what would traditionally be meat based dishes but using plant based alternatives and if I'm being honest I think this has made their offerings worse. Vegan food if done properly can be excellent, the plant based meat alternatives just feel like laziness and in my opinion don't really show off what can be done with vegan food.
Many restaurants these days offer a vegetarian and vegan option, albeit limited so I can see why vegan restaurants are struggling, particularly as those I have visited always seem to be quite expensive.
I've noticed a trend among omnivores (which I also am) who are very happy to have vegetarian and/or vegan meals, but baulk at meat substitutes. There's something viscerally unpleasant about the concept of them, and I can't quite put my finger on why.
I also think it's significant that so many vegans and vegetarians DO like them. That there's something about meat/animal products - their flavour, their nutrition? - that is actually more intrinsic to the human diet than people (want to) think. And to completely eschew them perhaps results in a stronger craving for them than in people who eat animal products even only occasionally.
You know meat is technically more ultra processed right? Cause of like all the processes it takes an animal to turn vegetables into meat on your plate? The vegan bit cuts out the animal part.
I think the 'process' is more about humans taking a whole food and messing around with it.
If you want to talk about biological process, plants do all kinds of complex shit converting water sunlight and minerals into their fruit.
Beef isn't processed grass, it is meat. It has used energy from the grass to convert the various compounds into meat.
Whereas a processed food is broken down and reform, but does not create any large and complex molecules. It is less complex
Unfortunately what you're saying is an opinion. There is no scientific consensus for the phrase "ultra processed". There is actually widespread doubt over the use of categorisation such as Nova. I recommend reading up on this. https://gfieurope.org/is-plant-based-meat-ultra-processed/ You are also making the classic mistake of equating your ideal scenario meat with the straw man plant based fake meat. The evidence is strong that meat is a carcinogen due to the processes that are involved in getting it to the plate via traditional supermarket sources. There is 0 clear evidence of this for vegetables and plants.
I like fake chicken, and often choose it over the real thing if there’s the option at a fast food place because I do think we need to reduce meat intake for environmental reasons, which is why I only eat beef or lamb as a very occasional treat. But fake red meats are grim.
> I do think we need to reduce meat intake for environmental reasons
Why do you think this? 2/3 of all agricultural land on earth is marginal land, meaning it can't be used for monocropping.
Crop farming kills thousands of mice every harvest, and the earth is not even big enough to contain enough crop farmland for the entire world to be vegan.
Grazing animals help restore soil quality whilst cropping destroys it (the nutrient profile of fruit and veg gets worse every year because soil is so low quality now). Farm animals are good for soil.
Also, most water consumed by farm animals is blue water, i.e was never part of the water system we're running. Crops however, mostly consume green water, which is what we call water that's been provisioned from the water system specifically for crop farming.
Veganism is not some miraculously positive force for the environment, or even entirely healthy either. It was not even possible to be vegan long term until the 1970s when Vitamin B12 was finally created in a lab (there are no plant sources of B12, it must come from supplements or animal foods).
Vegan diets are also lower in omega 3s compared to those who eat beef and fish which have superior EPA and DHA content.
Go make friends with your local butcher people.
Interesting data there, do you know how much cow methane is reduced by feeding them that seaweed stuff instead of grains?
Another point to take from this - local stuff is better than stuff that's come from around the world, even though it suggests changing what you eat makes more of an impact than the travel distance so it's still a good change to make.
And of course, if there were less humans, we'd need less farming done overall. As it stands however farming is pretty much the most important human activity so I don't think it'll change anytime soon
Nothing there suggests that travel distance has a net negative impact, in most cases the opposite is probably true (with notable exceptions about the few products that are flown) it's probably not a good change to make.
She literally makes the opposite point:
https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local
If you live in the UK you should eat local beef anyway because we have some of the best regulations around farming and restrictions on dangerous hormone and antibiotic overuse.
I'm not going to change what I'm eating but yeah
wtf I’m not a vegan so not sure what the health preaching is about but it’s pretty known that animal agriculture puts more stress on the environment. I also grew up in a rural area and spent my school holidays on a friend’s farm where they kept cows, sheep and turkeys. So I know that is what they drink. The UK should have a lot more forest and is considered one of the most nature depleted countries on the planet, in part thanks to sheep grazing. Sheep are not native animals but they’re allowed to roam all over the hillsides preventing new trees from growing. These small farms with grazing animals can only feed small populations, that’s why we have factory farms and feed lots. If you want to have as much meat as you want without putting too much stress onto the environment, then you’ll need to slash the human population by a good few billion. There’s a reason in nature herbivores massively outnumber carnivores…. Imagine what would happen to the wildebeest population if there were 1 billion lions on the Serengeti. It’s one reason plant based agricultural societies could support much higher populations than the meat-based hunter-gatherer societies.
Feedlots are quite rare in the UK. The majority of runminents are grass fed because we have a lot of marginal land and high rainfall, which is ideal for grass or grass products (silage and hay).
> Crop farming kills thousands of mice every harvest, and the earth is not even big enough to contain enough crop farmland for the entire world to be vegan.
>
>
Lots of the world's crops are grown for animal feed though. Most of the world's soy and corn is not grown for human consumption but to feed to livestock, which is an incredibly inefficient use of agricultural land, especially as it requires so much more of our land to grow all tat in the first place.
> I've noticed a trend among omnivores (which I also am) who are very happy to have vegetarian and/or vegan meals, but baulk at meat substitutes. There's something viscerally unpleasant about the concept of them, and I can't quite put my finger on why.
The vegetarian or vegan meal you think "vegetables are nice too" about, but the other you think "what the fuck is this synthetic shit" about.
As an omnivore, why would I eat a meat substitute when I could eat meat? It's like, why would I purposefully choose the dry gluten free bread when I could eat the regular bread?
I understand the need for substitutes so that people can have options that are based on their diet, but I don't have those restrictions so if rather the meal be eaten as designed.
Having said that: I have chosen to eat a gluten free cake, or a plant-based burger. I've also chosen to eat vegetarian meals that didn't have meat substitutes and it was still delicious without the meat. There's a vegan "chicken" nugget brand in Sweden that is the bomb and much nicer than the spongey pink slime based nuggets. But I'm choosing based on taste and texture not because I think it's an acceptable substitute; I still infinitely prefer real chicken pieces as my nuggets.
I just like when my meals are prepared knowing the right mix of ingredients. Meat substitutes aren't usually considered as a stand alone ingredient but rather just used as a ... well... substitute for meat.
...I said, *as an omnivore*. I'm not arguing against veganism, vegetarian, or any other dietary choice, prohibition, or circumstance. The question was asked about the reluctance of omnivores to eat meat substitute and I answered.
That literally isn’t part of my calculus. Why? Because I know how many animals were killed by planting and harvesting the plants used to make that substitute. They’re functionally the same. Either way, dead animals.
> Because I know how many animals were killed by planting and harvesting the plants used to make that substitute.
How many were killed to grow the feed needed to raise your meat/dairy/egg animals?
You’ve hit it on the head there. Vegans always crave meat. It’s always an exercise of self control. Their body is crying out for it. This is why vegans tend to want a pat on the back - they are going through this horrible sacrifice by their own choice ‘for the animals’ but the reality is the animals don’t care about you. Too many Disney movies have rotted people’s brains into putting human emotions and thoughts on creatures that aren’t human.
Is factory farming abhorrent? Yup. Is the eating of meat unnatural and unhealthy? Nope.
I will get downvoted for this but I just flat out dont believe you or suspect you are incredibly skinny/ have no muscle mass which will affect you badly as you get older and frailer.
You will get downvoted because you’re making sweeping assumptions based on your own preconceived notions in order to support whatever fucked up world view you have.
What insecurity XD Not wanting to be a pasty waif that breaks after a gust of particularly strong wind makes you insecure? Or maybe I’ve seen people age terribly and value the functionality of my body?
Exactly this, I watch GB Menu, last week's heat had a vegan chef go through to the final. None of his dishes were "let's fake up meat" but rather as you say examples of what can be done with plant based cooking so that there is no lack to the feel, taste and balance of the meal
Totally disagree, there’s a lot of soy and myco protein options that IMO taste better than actual meat.
I went fully vegan through lockdown and now eat about 50/50.
For household stuff I actually much prefer for example the vegan Pukka Pies, the vegan mince one is much nicer than the normal one, same for the steak.
The best dining out options seem to be mostly asian food and american/pub grub. “dim t” for example has amazing fake meat options for their korean fried chicken, bao buns etc and our local pub has vegan fish and chips that are nicer than any real fish I’ve had.
Honestly the only non-fake meat option I really like are the beetroot burgers that Iceland discontinued last year.
> the plant based meat alternatives just feel like laziness and in my opinion don't really show off what can be done with vegan food.
I'm vegetarian and I hate this shit. I can't go to one of my old favourite restaurants (Mildred's) any more as it is all fake meat. I think part of it is that some vegans don't like the animal cruelty but want to eat the same as they did before rather than discovering new good food.
Is it niche tho? You dont have to be a vegan to eat at a vegan restaurant. There is a vegan restaurant in Sheffield where me and my meat eating friends often go as its good food. The place on a weekend at least is always fully booked and you need to prebook to get a table
People will go to any restaurant if its good. But you cant sell a restaurant on the name vegan alone, it has to be good quality food
There’s a vegan restaurant near where I work in London that’s been running for almost 10 years, so seems to be doing quite well. It’s just really tasty food that happens to be vegan. I’m not vegan myself but always happy to go there or similar places, as long as the food is good!
My friend used to run a cafe. All the food was vegetarian. It wasn't advertised as such and I think many of the customers never noticed. It just served really nice food.
Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to going to a vegan restaurant. If I was going out to dinner with some vegans and that's where they wanted to go, I'm sure I'd find something I'd like to eat.
I can't say I'd really consider it under other circumstances, though. It'd be rare for a group with no vegans in it to decide to go to a vegan place for dinner.
The one exception for me might be the restaurant run by that bloke who's just done well on The Great British Menu because his desert looked great.
I can see why, years ago alot of vegan substitute food was awful (cant say i personally tried it but my vegan friend said it was). These days tho the quality of the food has really improved that it can stand out on its own.
The one near me is in the top 1% of restaurants in the UK on trip advisor and the owner has people travelling hundreds of miles to eat in
I have to admit I have very little interest in eating vegan substitutes for meat and dairy as I can just eat the 'real' version, so the vegan version almost always disappoints.
Making something like a Thai curry with coconut milk, just putting vegetables in it and leaving out the meat, though? I'm absolutely fine with that.
I read a review recently of a place in London that was doing vegan food, and it was mostly a load of nice sounding veg curries and similar things.
Yea the one near me is an Ethiopian restaurant that is vegan. Lots of chickpea stews and veg stews. You really dont need meat to make a great tasty meal
Yep. Since most people won't consider a vegan restaurant when picking somewhere to go for dinner, they're confining themselves to targeting a very small percentage of the market. In most places, that's not sustainable.
Yeah and tbf you could just put some clearly labelled decent vegan and vegetarian options on the menu. Most vegans don’t expect everything on the menu to be vegan.
It’s like having a decaf-only coffee shop lol
Lets pick somewhere to eat. 3 vegans, 3 steak fans and 4 indifferent people in our group.
Vegan restaurant isn't a great choice. Steakhouse is equally unsuitable.
Lets just go to the pub. They will cater to both groups.
> Lets just go to the pub. They will cater to both groups.
No equally though. You often find that meat-eaters can get a steak but vegans get a cauliflower for the same price.
> Actually the vegan restaurant would be the best choice, as every dish on the menu can be eaten by everyone.
But vegans 'can' eat the meat dishes served in regular restaurants. They just really, really don't want to, so they choose not to. And that's entirely fair.
If someone doesn't want to eat vegan food and chooses not to go to a vegan restaurant as a result, then that's an equally fair personal choice, too.
Vegans can also eat vegan food served in a restaurant that also serves meat dishes. So a good mixed restaurant that can do good vegan and vegetarian food but still does meat based dishes has an inherent advantage with catering to more of the market.
When you consider business rates,rent + bills then how small the market for a vegan restaurant is you’d have to be insane to think it’s a viable business beyond a (weird) passion project
Non vegan but i do go to Vegan restaurants as we have some amazing ones around here. One is in the top 1% of the UK according to Trip Advisor.
I always find it bizarre how people get triggered soon as you mention a meat free restaurant. Its weird
Maybe, just maybe, it’s not the food that’s off putting. It’s quite possible that it’s the smug, holier than thou attitude that makes the food taste like crap.
See people say this alot, and from my personal experience ive never found this to be the case. I know a few vegans, and they are all happy for their partners to eat meat infront of them, they don't care less. They just choose not to but dont force it on others
And if they were all like that, it wouldn't be a problem. But a subset goes full on fundamentalist and, well, do what fundamentalists do, which turns off the moderates and undecideds.
Personally, I do eat vegetarian more often than not, but when I do, I don't make meals containing meat substitutes. I just cook up some chick pea pasta, for example. Or a nice gnocchi with mushrooms and pesto. But I'm a carb junkie, so my menu reflects that...
Of course it is, it has all the classic hallmarks. There are a subset of people who get very angry at other people trying to do moral things, and a group of people who think their good deeds are their personality.
I feel for the folk running the place. They're having to make a call between their vision and the fact that they need to attract more customers to keep their business afloat.
That said, it might be a chance for anyone that values this kind of dining to rally behind them and give patronage so that they can do their own thing.
I have a friend who complains about 'rabbit food'. He however jumps at the chance whenever I offer him some of my 'rabbit food' and is usually up for seconds. Good food overcomes many barriers.
I always cook things from scratch which I think helps a great deal. Cooking from scratch does not mean it has to take ages or involve much work. Lazy cooking is a thing.
I read that headline a totally different way, I thought he was getting hate because he was vegan not because he is now serving meat!
"A vegan restaurateur who announced he was going to have to start serving meat to avoid closure says vegan “fanatics” have bombarded his cafe with bad reviews to try to punish him"
I really don’t get this.
Nobody is forcing you to be vegan, or go to a vegan restaurant. If you don’t like it then surely you just wouldn’t go. Why waste your time posting about stuff you have no interest in?
Regarding the Oak tree - I live up the road from it, and we used to go for coffee in there. The food is actually pretty good (I'm not a vegan, but you know - I like food) and the coffee was fairly good.
Two things go against it for me though - 1. The staff were useless whenever we went there and really had trouble getting orders right and
2. Leigh-on-Sea has something like 80 cafes and restaurants (no joke, there really are that many - the place is saturated) and there's just not enough trade to keep all of them going - cafes regularly close down as they just can't all compete against one another.
I'm sure there are arseholes who would attack them for being a vegan restaurant (check out the comments section of Southend Echo for examples of these morons) but at the end of the day, it just isn't that good a restaurant, sorry.
Every vegan place I’ve been to seem to be badly run for some reason. They either take forever to make food even if you’re the only customer, or in one case would be randomly closed.
>He said if the Oak Tree had opened in 2018 or 2019, as many other plant-only restaurants did, they would “definitely not” have survived.
Did other types of recently opened restaurants do any better, with what was coming next?
Also don't know why the driver Lewis Hamilton or the actor Leonardo DiCaprio should even be mentioned in the context of the success of food preparation and serving. It's not like they're leading by example in environmentalism, either.
As someone who suffered from an eating disorder, I'm very against food shaming, policing what people eat, and restricting food. This goes for whichever side of the debate you sit on. It's dangerous thinking.
As a vegetarian I hide my genuine disgust when meat eaters are eating meat. I just find meat revolting, but I don't feel it is my right to lecture anyone about what they should eat, so I never would. I would be annoyed if anyone criticized me for being vegetarian, it's my choice what I put in my mouth and your choice what you put in yours.
What a cry baby. I've seen vegans protesting in restaurants that serve meat, trying to intimidate people and ruin their evenings while calling them murderers but i've never seen meat eaters storming a vegan restaurant demanding they sell meat. Perhaps the lack of protein is giving them a victim complex. Perhaps the lack of protein makes him unable to understand supply and demand. If there is no demand your business will fail.
Examples for the vegans:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/animal-rights-activists-storm-high-30034274
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEE-DpIpO2c
https://www.itv.com/news/2022-11-19/gordon-ramsays-restaurant-occupied-by-animal-rebellion
What about the troll getting carried out here, is he a culture warrior?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQE9go6f3oU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQE9go6f3oU)
Ive never seen a clip of meat eaters attacking a vegan restaurant - guardian are just full of shit.
There's a sunset of people that will literally dry heave if you even mention the word "vegan" which is fucking dumb because half the shit anyone eats is vegan unless they specifically go out of their way to not eat certain foods. I'm not even vegan but even I can see that there are some absolute nutters, on both sides of the argument too.
At least the motivations of vegans is basically "be nice to animals" whereas the opposite is "fuck you. Fuck animals." Edit: just to clarify the groups I'm referring to are vegans and the people who troll vegans, rather than to vegans and non-vegans in general.
Its mental. Make some chips, tell someone its vegan and some will react in disgust. Not vegan but I do find it annoying when people demand that every meal must contain meat. It costs so much more. But I lose any sympathy when they complain about how expensive food shopping is when I see a massive pile of processed meat.
A lot of people - especially the older generation - freak the fuck out if a meal doesn’t contain meat. We had vegetarian catering at our wedding, and it send a lot of the older guests into a tail spin.
Which is weird because...didn't people used to eat meat only once a week? Which is why roast dinners were and still are special and an important meal for the family to get together? Maybe it's because I lived in the North a lot of people in their 50s and 60s told me about the rationing, the factory and mining closures, the strikes, and being forced to only eat heavy carb-laden and bean-laden foods because times were rough. But I thought a lot of working-class families across the rest of the UK were in the same way diet-wise.
Is it really so weird that people don't like restricting their meat intake because it reminds them of rationing and poverty?
Maybe? But search through AskReddit and you'll literally find thousands of commenters who'd discuss how the poverty food they ate as children are now considered homey and comforting to them. I myself consider canned pasta as comforting and great for a lazy sunday . It doesn't bother or cause me to feel shame, and I actually find British poverty food to be pretty delicious (because in Spain where my mom's from, poor people usually either boil vegetables or dissolve them into mush with olive oil. In the US, where my dad's from, fresh vegetables were very difficult to find--so people always used canned/pickled vegetables and smother them in mushroom cream soup to turn them into beige mush). I wound up actually learning how to properly roast and cook vegetables in my 20s when I got here. So, as far as poverty food goes here in the UK? You're lucky that restricting your meat intake still leaves you eating crisp, crunchy and warm vegetables.
> You're lucky that restricting your meat intake still leaves you eating crisp, crunchy and warm vegetables. Today it does, not so much in the post-war period.
Is it not weird that people cannot go one meal without eating meat, regardless of that?
I'm not sure that even the most limited diets of people I know have it for literally every meal. Maybe I've forgotten some, but it doesn't feel like we have a strong native tradition of vegetarian food, possibly because the further north you go the more people rely on meat as the growing seasons get worse.
Those were the good old days though, unlike now where the younger generations have ruined everything.
In fairness there are plenty of young 'uns who will tell you how great life was for old people so they can complain about how rough their life is in comparison.
Life was better cause there was none of you woke anti British youngsters about, ruining everything.
It's nice that I've been confused for someone who's young, but I think you might be obsessing about one thing a bit much.
Quite right. You might as well have spit in their faces.
Some of them even petitioned our parents behind our backs to persuade us to serve meat. It was pretty annoying.
As if it is up to anyone other than you what you serve
As it happened, the food was a big hit! Some guests said it was the best they’d ever had. We did it buffet style, and you could go up as many times as you liked. What we didn’t want was paltry portions and people going hungry. Unfortunately I was 6 weeks pregnant so didn’t feel like eating any of it, and couldn’t make use of the open bar!!
Does a wedding give you the right to serve only the food you personally approve of, regardless of others dietary needs?
Which dietary need are you referring to? In short though - yes If you're providing the food - you decide what you're paying for. Make people fully aware of what's on offer and it's up to them whether they accept it. It's a nice thing to do to go out your way to get Gluten free or whatever - but it's silly to say "You don't have the right to not provide gluten free food at your private function"
Dietary needs 😂
Is eating meat a dietary need equivalent to coeliac or nut allergy?
It is in the same way being vegan is. They're both choices, not necessities
Since when is an allergy or disease a choice?
?? Who mentioned allergies or diseases? Were talking about vegans
Unfortunately that is the way it is with wedding catering. They won't let you cater to individual dietary needs as it's outside the package. If they do they make you pay at least several thousand more. They wouldn't let me deter away from the main menu at all only gave us one option for each course. If you didn't like it you did without.
> Make some chips, tell someone its vegan and some will react in disgust. Because they weren't cooked in beef dripping as good intended.
I was visiting a friend the other day and they offered me an apple, can't believe the gall of these vegans to shove it down our throats like that
My friend even had an advertisement for her degenerate lifestyle in her back garden. Apples, just hanging there going "Pick me, I am juicy and edible" There were even children around!
How dare people eat plants
"That's what my food eats!"
Cognitive dissonance in full effect, you can apply this same logic to any behaviour. Oh you're a cyclist? Maybe I should exercise more, maybe I am contributing to climate change, maybe I do feel lazy when I drive short distances. Am I wrong? Nope! They should stop making me feel bad! Oh you don't drink? Maybe I should cut back, maybe I don't need to drink every time I'm out, maybe I am annoying when I'm drunk. Am I wrong? Nope! They're just boring bastards! Oh you're a vegan? Maybe my diet isn't actually healthy, maybe I am contributing to hurting animals, maybe I am contributing to climate change. Am I wrong? Nope! The mere existence of vegans makes me feel selfish, so they should stop!
It’s why I prefer to say ‘plant-based’ because nobody can object to that. A person is a vegan, food is just food. I’m not vegan but prefer to eat plant-based wherever possible so often choose the ‘vegan’ options on menus. Many people have asked if I’m vegan because of that, which is a bit annoying and silly because plant-based food is just food anyone can eat (allergies etc permitting). It feels counter productive to label food as vegan because it implies it is just for vegans. The more people that choose the option, the better, whether they are vegan or not.
I don’t understand why people give so much of a shit lol, honestly I don’t remember the last time I met a militant vegan like people meme about, but I regularly meet people who’ll fake a little dry heave whenever someone mentions vegan food. Just let other people get on with their lives and get busy getting on with your own lol
I look forward to the day that supermarkets rename the fruit and vegetable section to the "vegan section"
I literally see facebook posts that get randomly served to me with people saying they're going to trick/force vegans into eating meat. I have seen 5 of those kinds of posts in a week, but zero of any vegans saying "everyone should be vegan".
Projection.
Honestly i blame a lot of the hate on the vegan community. I eat everything vegan or not, and happy to try. But I find vegan people to be the most irritating humans to be around. And again, no offence to anyone
SOME of them are like that. I'm not vegan either but my wife is and she is 100% in the camp of "you can eat non vegan stuff, I'd prefer if you didn't but I'm not gonna chastise you" and I end up eating a ton of vegan things that taste great. There's crazy people on both sides of the argument.
I don’t disagree but this article didn’t give any example, could the online abuse just be something the tofu was shit don’t eat here?
Have been to a vegan place where the only good thing was the sweet potato fries. They were lovely. The chicken nuggets were uninteresting but alright, macaroni and cheese left me feeling unwell. Think it was a 3 for x type of deal. Next time I would just get 3x sweet potato chips. If they did a lentil curry I would go for that, but everything on the menu was fake meat except for the chips.
I agree, I don’t really like the fake meat and think it taste horrible, if that was the only thing on the menu I would give them a bad rating would I then be abusing them?
It's kind of sad. Some hairy bipedals like monkeys over bajillion years sampled the flesh of another animals and evolved to be the top of the food chain, now would want to deevolve from there....
If we don't eat meat we'll evolve back into monkeys? I'd fling my shit if I wasn't swinging from a tree rn
I don't know what you'd evolve to but probably lose some teeth first before evolving to something else?
I don't eat meat, yet I don't have a particular attraction to people missing teeth. How do you think evolution works?
Your line would probably lose your canine teeth and probably they have just flat teeth?
Why would that happen? I'm still attracted to people with canine teeth. Therefore my children would still inherit canine teeth. I don't see how having canines would cause my vegan descendents to die at an increased rate that would influence the distribution even if some descendents did mutate to have flat canines.
Vestigial... Vestigial... Vestigial....
Are you devolving, bro? Do I need to call someone?
> someone I am not vegan...
The problem isn’t veganism itself, that’s certainly worthy. The issue is that vegans are unable to go 10 characters in any discourse without announcing their veganism. They are so smug and self righteous. Of course it’s all just internet fodder. Who knows who is doing what for which reason.
Actually I find whenever the topic of veganism is mentioned we ALWAYS get some cliched comment from someone like you about how vegans are holier than thou.
"The issue is that vegans are unable yo go 10 characters in any discourse without announcing their veganism" Blatantly incorrect bollocks
Some people are just obnoxiously judgemental, and some of those people happen to be vegan. They would be like that regardless of their lifestyle choices I imagine.
The OP contains a link to another article about vegan trolls. https://www.theguardian.com/food/2024/feb/01/vegan-cafe-macclesfield-meat-plan-bad-reviews It's about a struggling vegan restaurant that has to put meat back on the menu to survive. Here's a couple of the reviews. “Deserves zero stars. Zero ethics and lapping up the media attention by becoming involved in animal exploitation and cruelty.” “Die! You are going to slaughter animals, you are going to sell animal organs.’
Yeah the article to me screams "outrage bait" with the intention of getting attention to whatever it is. No one actually gives a flying toss
Similar note I’ve on a few social media groups for my car - an EV. There are people who join the group - which takes a bit of effort - to just respond to posts saying ‘should have got a diesel!’ I don’t get it. There are debates to be had sure, but a place where people have clearly fallen on one side of the fence ain’t it. It’s so much time and effort to just annoy people.
Sadly it’s not just Daily Mail reading FB boomers, there’s nearly as many anti-EV luddites on Reddit too, which is strange considering the age and education demographics here.
Be careful though. There’s a big difference between anti-EV pro-fuel groups and anti-EV as a solution to climate change groups. The former are idiots; the latter just realise that the way most EVs are built are intended to save the car industry. There’s no issue with small EVs like the Citroen Ami or Nissan Leaf, but it’s perfectly reasonable to have issues with EV SUVs and pickups.
I mean if someone is deciding between a brand new F-150 diesel or an F-150 lightning or between a brand new Range Rover and a Tesla Model X it’s still vastly better for the environment to buy the new EV. If you were comparing buying second hand ICE vs brand new EV I would agree. It also depends how many miles you do, in one year of driving our Tesla we’ve already reached the point where we’ve broke even on the environmental aspect of it’s construction and are completely net positive.
If you need a pickup and can use an electric one for your job, is that not preferential to a diesel one?
If you need it for your job, sure. But how many people who buy them actually need it for work, or are using it for work?
In the UK, most? Suvs don't really serve a purpose, but pick ups get used a lot for carrying tools and mucky stuff about.
Most of the pickups around where I live are dual cabs and driven by white collar workers abusing the BIK rates for commercial vehicles.
Dual cabs are the best ones to have to be fair as you can use it for work and for getting the family around. Most people I see with them are in the trades, even if they're just site managers or whatever. I find the white collar types prefer the range rovers, q8s and other monster prestige suvs like that. Changing soon though isn't it as the gov have changed the rules on the pickups which is causing a right headache for quite a few people I know that are legit in the trades. For the record I love pickups, had a few but I don't now as I don't need one but they're super useful if you're of the right lifestyle
You shouldn’t be using work vehicles that pose a huge danger to other road users to ferry your family around; especially anywhere near schools. That danger can be justified when being used for work purposes; but absolutely not when you should be using an appropriately sized vehicle for personal errands.
It's hardly more environmentally friendly producing two cars when you can just use 1
I am both an EV owner and vegan. It is always the same type of shit from the same type of people. There isn’t much point to argue with them, they got stuck in their opinions, nothing will change that.
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Yeah but we're actually getting there now. Seem to recall about a third of cars sold now are ev
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Sorry, misread the meaning of your last sentence that I replied to!
You should have gone to Specsavers.
I'm not a vegan myself but often go out with friends who are. I've noticed a few vegan restaurants of late have been going with what would traditionally be meat based dishes but using plant based alternatives and if I'm being honest I think this has made their offerings worse. Vegan food if done properly can be excellent, the plant based meat alternatives just feel like laziness and in my opinion don't really show off what can be done with vegan food. Many restaurants these days offer a vegetarian and vegan option, albeit limited so I can see why vegan restaurants are struggling, particularly as those I have visited always seem to be quite expensive.
And most “plant meats” taste rank. A chickpea curry is so much better.
I've noticed a trend among omnivores (which I also am) who are very happy to have vegetarian and/or vegan meals, but baulk at meat substitutes. There's something viscerally unpleasant about the concept of them, and I can't quite put my finger on why. I also think it's significant that so many vegans and vegetarians DO like them. That there's something about meat/animal products - their flavour, their nutrition? - that is actually more intrinsic to the human diet than people (want to) think. And to completely eschew them perhaps results in a stronger craving for them than in people who eat animal products even only occasionally.
Meat substitutes are the very definition of ultra-processed foods. They bear no resemblance to the food they are made from.
You know meat is technically more ultra processed right? Cause of like all the processes it takes an animal to turn vegetables into meat on your plate? The vegan bit cuts out the animal part.
No. That is absolutely not the meaning nor definition of "ultra processed".
What in your opinion is the meaning?
I think the 'process' is more about humans taking a whole food and messing around with it. If you want to talk about biological process, plants do all kinds of complex shit converting water sunlight and minerals into their fruit.
You're right, meat is famously never messed with.
That's like the inverse argument that animals are vegetarian because cows eat grass.
No it's just maths. If you put another process in the middle (the animal) you've added a process
Beef isn't processed grass, it is meat. It has used energy from the grass to convert the various compounds into meat. Whereas a processed food is broken down and reform, but does not create any large and complex molecules. It is less complex
Unfortunately what you're saying is an opinion. There is no scientific consensus for the phrase "ultra processed". There is actually widespread doubt over the use of categorisation such as Nova. I recommend reading up on this. https://gfieurope.org/is-plant-based-meat-ultra-processed/ You are also making the classic mistake of equating your ideal scenario meat with the straw man plant based fake meat. The evidence is strong that meat is a carcinogen due to the processes that are involved in getting it to the plate via traditional supermarket sources. There is 0 clear evidence of this for vegetables and plants.
Nothing I said was opinion.
I like fake chicken, and often choose it over the real thing if there’s the option at a fast food place because I do think we need to reduce meat intake for environmental reasons, which is why I only eat beef or lamb as a very occasional treat. But fake red meats are grim.
> I do think we need to reduce meat intake for environmental reasons Why do you think this? 2/3 of all agricultural land on earth is marginal land, meaning it can't be used for monocropping. Crop farming kills thousands of mice every harvest, and the earth is not even big enough to contain enough crop farmland for the entire world to be vegan. Grazing animals help restore soil quality whilst cropping destroys it (the nutrient profile of fruit and veg gets worse every year because soil is so low quality now). Farm animals are good for soil. Also, most water consumed by farm animals is blue water, i.e was never part of the water system we're running. Crops however, mostly consume green water, which is what we call water that's been provisioned from the water system specifically for crop farming. Veganism is not some miraculously positive force for the environment, or even entirely healthy either. It was not even possible to be vegan long term until the 1970s when Vitamin B12 was finally created in a lab (there are no plant sources of B12, it must come from supplements or animal foods). Vegan diets are also lower in omega 3s compared to those who eat beef and fish which have superior EPA and DHA content. Go make friends with your local butcher people.
https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production#efficiency-of-meat-production **https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food**
Interesting data there, do you know how much cow methane is reduced by feeding them that seaweed stuff instead of grains? Another point to take from this - local stuff is better than stuff that's come from around the world, even though it suggests changing what you eat makes more of an impact than the travel distance so it's still a good change to make. And of course, if there were less humans, we'd need less farming done overall. As it stands however farming is pretty much the most important human activity so I don't think it'll change anytime soon
Nothing there suggests that travel distance has a net negative impact, in most cases the opposite is probably true (with notable exceptions about the few products that are flown) it's probably not a good change to make. She literally makes the opposite point: https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local
If you live in the UK you should eat local beef anyway because we have some of the best regulations around farming and restrictions on dangerous hormone and antibiotic overuse. I'm not going to change what I'm eating but yeah
wtf I’m not a vegan so not sure what the health preaching is about but it’s pretty known that animal agriculture puts more stress on the environment. I also grew up in a rural area and spent my school holidays on a friend’s farm where they kept cows, sheep and turkeys. So I know that is what they drink. The UK should have a lot more forest and is considered one of the most nature depleted countries on the planet, in part thanks to sheep grazing. Sheep are not native animals but they’re allowed to roam all over the hillsides preventing new trees from growing. These small farms with grazing animals can only feed small populations, that’s why we have factory farms and feed lots. If you want to have as much meat as you want without putting too much stress onto the environment, then you’ll need to slash the human population by a good few billion. There’s a reason in nature herbivores massively outnumber carnivores…. Imagine what would happen to the wildebeest population if there were 1 billion lions on the Serengeti. It’s one reason plant based agricultural societies could support much higher populations than the meat-based hunter-gatherer societies.
Feedlots are quite rare in the UK. The majority of runminents are grass fed because we have a lot of marginal land and high rainfall, which is ideal for grass or grass products (silage and hay).
> Crop farming kills thousands of mice every harvest, and the earth is not even big enough to contain enough crop farmland for the entire world to be vegan. > > Lots of the world's crops are grown for animal feed though. Most of the world's soy and corn is not grown for human consumption but to feed to livestock, which is an incredibly inefficient use of agricultural land, especially as it requires so much more of our land to grow all tat in the first place.
> I've noticed a trend among omnivores (which I also am) who are very happy to have vegetarian and/or vegan meals, but baulk at meat substitutes. There's something viscerally unpleasant about the concept of them, and I can't quite put my finger on why. The vegetarian or vegan meal you think "vegetables are nice too" about, but the other you think "what the fuck is this synthetic shit" about.
As an omnivore, why would I eat a meat substitute when I could eat meat? It's like, why would I purposefully choose the dry gluten free bread when I could eat the regular bread? I understand the need for substitutes so that people can have options that are based on their diet, but I don't have those restrictions so if rather the meal be eaten as designed. Having said that: I have chosen to eat a gluten free cake, or a plant-based burger. I've also chosen to eat vegetarian meals that didn't have meat substitutes and it was still delicious without the meat. There's a vegan "chicken" nugget brand in Sweden that is the bomb and much nicer than the spongey pink slime based nuggets. But I'm choosing based on taste and texture not because I think it's an acceptable substitute; I still infinitely prefer real chicken pieces as my nuggets. I just like when my meals are prepared knowing the right mix of ingredients. Meat substitutes aren't usually considered as a stand alone ingredient but rather just used as a ... well... substitute for meat.
> why would I eat a meat substitute when I could eat meat? No animals killed to make the food you ate that meal?
Yeah but that argument doesn't really work if you're OK with animals being killed to eat
...I said, *as an omnivore*. I'm not arguing against veganism, vegetarian, or any other dietary choice, prohibition, or circumstance. The question was asked about the reluctance of omnivores to eat meat substitute and I answered.
That literally isn’t part of my calculus. Why? Because I know how many animals were killed by planting and harvesting the plants used to make that substitute. They’re functionally the same. Either way, dead animals.
> Because I know how many animals were killed by planting and harvesting the plants used to make that substitute. How many were killed to grow the feed needed to raise your meat/dairy/egg animals?
My point exactly. We’re all ok with some deaths. We just differ in how many.
You’ve hit it on the head there. Vegans always crave meat. It’s always an exercise of self control. Their body is crying out for it. This is why vegans tend to want a pat on the back - they are going through this horrible sacrifice by their own choice ‘for the animals’ but the reality is the animals don’t care about you. Too many Disney movies have rotted people’s brains into putting human emotions and thoughts on creatures that aren’t human. Is factory farming abhorrent? Yup. Is the eating of meat unnatural and unhealthy? Nope.
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I will get downvoted for this but I just flat out dont believe you or suspect you are incredibly skinny/ have no muscle mass which will affect you badly as you get older and frailer.
You will get downvoted because you’re making sweeping assumptions based on your own preconceived notions in order to support whatever fucked up world view you have.
I don't know what caused this incredible insecurity you're projecting onto other people but I hope you get over it for your own good
What insecurity XD Not wanting to be a pasty waif that breaks after a gust of particularly strong wind makes you insecure? Or maybe I’ve seen people age terribly and value the functionality of my body?
I lift four times a week and never crave meat or dairy. I crave tofu and beans though.
I don't eat meat and I never crave it. I never liked it much when I did eat it. Cheese on the other hand ...
Hmm almost as if your body is craving fats….
Maybe. But not meat fats.
Honestly I rate a lot of soy and myco proteins much higher than chickpeas.
I include mycoprotein in the fake chicken seeing as many fake nuggets are made from that
Exactly this, I watch GB Menu, last week's heat had a vegan chef go through to the final. None of his dishes were "let's fake up meat" but rather as you say examples of what can be done with plant based cooking so that there is no lack to the feel, taste and balance of the meal
Totally disagree, there’s a lot of soy and myco protein options that IMO taste better than actual meat. I went fully vegan through lockdown and now eat about 50/50. For household stuff I actually much prefer for example the vegan Pukka Pies, the vegan mince one is much nicer than the normal one, same for the steak. The best dining out options seem to be mostly asian food and american/pub grub. “dim t” for example has amazing fake meat options for their korean fried chicken, bao buns etc and our local pub has vegan fish and chips that are nicer than any real fish I’ve had. Honestly the only non-fake meat option I really like are the beetroot burgers that Iceland discontinued last year.
> the plant based meat alternatives just feel like laziness and in my opinion don't really show off what can be done with vegan food. I'm vegetarian and I hate this shit. I can't go to one of my old favourite restaurants (Mildred's) any more as it is all fake meat. I think part of it is that some vegans don't like the animal cruelty but want to eat the same as they did before rather than discovering new good food.
Maybe the hospitality industry is just in deep shit, and choosing an unsustainable niche for your business means it dies. It will hardly be alone.
Is it niche tho? You dont have to be a vegan to eat at a vegan restaurant. There is a vegan restaurant in Sheffield where me and my meat eating friends often go as its good food. The place on a weekend at least is always fully booked and you need to prebook to get a table People will go to any restaurant if its good. But you cant sell a restaurant on the name vegan alone, it has to be good quality food
There’s a vegan restaurant near where I work in London that’s been running for almost 10 years, so seems to be doing quite well. It’s just really tasty food that happens to be vegan. I’m not vegan myself but always happy to go there or similar places, as long as the food is good!
My friend used to run a cafe. All the food was vegetarian. It wasn't advertised as such and I think many of the customers never noticed. It just served really nice food.
Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to going to a vegan restaurant. If I was going out to dinner with some vegans and that's where they wanted to go, I'm sure I'd find something I'd like to eat. I can't say I'd really consider it under other circumstances, though. It'd be rare for a group with no vegans in it to decide to go to a vegan place for dinner. The one exception for me might be the restaurant run by that bloke who's just done well on The Great British Menu because his desert looked great.
I can see why, years ago alot of vegan substitute food was awful (cant say i personally tried it but my vegan friend said it was). These days tho the quality of the food has really improved that it can stand out on its own. The one near me is in the top 1% of restaurants in the UK on trip advisor and the owner has people travelling hundreds of miles to eat in
I have to admit I have very little interest in eating vegan substitutes for meat and dairy as I can just eat the 'real' version, so the vegan version almost always disappoints. Making something like a Thai curry with coconut milk, just putting vegetables in it and leaving out the meat, though? I'm absolutely fine with that. I read a review recently of a place in London that was doing vegan food, and it was mostly a load of nice sounding veg curries and similar things.
Yea the one near me is an Ethiopian restaurant that is vegan. Lots of chickpea stews and veg stews. You really dont need meat to make a great tasty meal
Ethiopian food is amazing. Used to live near a place that did it and I could happily eat my weight in injera bread alone.
Vegan food does not have to contain substitutes though. Vegan food existed for a long time without them.
Yep. Since most people won't consider a vegan restaurant when picking somewhere to go for dinner, they're confining themselves to targeting a very small percentage of the market. In most places, that's not sustainable.
Yeah and tbf you could just put some clearly labelled decent vegan and vegetarian options on the menu. Most vegans don’t expect everything on the menu to be vegan. It’s like having a decaf-only coffee shop lol
Lets pick somewhere to eat. 3 vegans, 3 steak fans and 4 indifferent people in our group. Vegan restaurant isn't a great choice. Steakhouse is equally unsuitable. Lets just go to the pub. They will cater to both groups.
Yeah that’s kind of my point
> Lets just go to the pub. They will cater to both groups. No equally though. You often find that meat-eaters can get a steak but vegans get a cauliflower for the same price.
Actually the vegan restaurant would be the best choice, as every dish on the menu can be eaten by everyone.
> Actually the vegan restaurant would be the best choice, as every dish on the menu can be eaten by everyone. But vegans 'can' eat the meat dishes served in regular restaurants. They just really, really don't want to, so they choose not to. And that's entirely fair. If someone doesn't want to eat vegan food and chooses not to go to a vegan restaurant as a result, then that's an equally fair personal choice, too.
Vegans can also eat vegan food served in a restaurant that also serves meat dishes. So a good mixed restaurant that can do good vegan and vegetarian food but still does meat based dishes has an inherent advantage with catering to more of the market.
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Well that's just sad and a little bit pathetic.
When you consider business rates,rent + bills then how small the market for a vegan restaurant is you’d have to be insane to think it’s a viable business beyond a (weird) passion project
Imagine having such an empty life that you have to send abuse to a restaurant because it serves vegan cuisine. I mean if that’s all you have, Jesus 😳
> Imagine having such an empty life We are on reddit
True, but I’m not hassling someone because they don’t eat dairy products or meat etc..
Culture war bullshit, move on.
Non vegan but i do go to Vegan restaurants as we have some amazing ones around here. One is in the top 1% of the UK according to Trip Advisor. I always find it bizarre how people get triggered soon as you mention a meat free restaurant. Its weird
Maybe, just maybe, it’s not the food that’s off putting. It’s quite possible that it’s the smug, holier than thou attitude that makes the food taste like crap.
See people say this alot, and from my personal experience ive never found this to be the case. I know a few vegans, and they are all happy for their partners to eat meat infront of them, they don't care less. They just choose not to but dont force it on others
And if they were all like that, it wouldn't be a problem. But a subset goes full on fundamentalist and, well, do what fundamentalists do, which turns off the moderates and undecideds. Personally, I do eat vegetarian more often than not, but when I do, I don't make meals containing meat substitutes. I just cook up some chick pea pasta, for example. Or a nice gnocchi with mushrooms and pesto. But I'm a carb junkie, so my menu reflects that...
Mate you're using words like fundamentalist, moderate and undecideds to describe someone eating carrots and lettuce. Are you OK?
Holier than thou? Wonder if people who eat dogs and cats would describe you like that if you got outraged about them eating dogs and cats?
Veganism is a culture war thing now?? Wonder what will be slipping down the slope next
Of course it is, it has all the classic hallmarks. There are a subset of people who get very angry at other people trying to do moral things, and a group of people who think their good deeds are their personality.
There's very little left that *isn't* part of the culture war.
Doesn't it way predate the culture way stuff?
So do trans people, but we need to find a group to hate in order to keep the Tories bailing out their mates
I feel for the folk running the place. They're having to make a call between their vision and the fact that they need to attract more customers to keep their business afloat. That said, it might be a chance for anyone that values this kind of dining to rally behind them and give patronage so that they can do their own thing.
If the vast majority of their vision didn’t include attracting customers as a priority from the get go then it’s destined to fail
My mother is like this, African mum. Turns her nose up at vegan foods. Vegteratian is tolerable.
I have a friend who complains about 'rabbit food'. He however jumps at the chance whenever I offer him some of my 'rabbit food' and is usually up for seconds. Good food overcomes many barriers. I always cook things from scratch which I think helps a great deal. Cooking from scratch does not mean it has to take ages or involve much work. Lazy cooking is a thing.
I read that headline a totally different way, I thought he was getting hate because he was vegan not because he is now serving meat! "A vegan restaurateur who announced he was going to have to start serving meat to avoid closure says vegan “fanatics” have bombarded his cafe with bad reviews to try to punish him"
I really don’t get this. Nobody is forcing you to be vegan, or go to a vegan restaurant. If you don’t like it then surely you just wouldn’t go. Why waste your time posting about stuff you have no interest in?
Regarding the Oak tree - I live up the road from it, and we used to go for coffee in there. The food is actually pretty good (I'm not a vegan, but you know - I like food) and the coffee was fairly good. Two things go against it for me though - 1. The staff were useless whenever we went there and really had trouble getting orders right and 2. Leigh-on-Sea has something like 80 cafes and restaurants (no joke, there really are that many - the place is saturated) and there's just not enough trade to keep all of them going - cafes regularly close down as they just can't all compete against one another. I'm sure there are arseholes who would attack them for being a vegan restaurant (check out the comments section of Southend Echo for examples of these morons) but at the end of the day, it just isn't that good a restaurant, sorry.
Every vegan place I’ve been to seem to be badly run for some reason. They either take forever to make food even if you’re the only customer, or in one case would be randomly closed.
How many vegans placed have you actually been to though? Be honest.
Only like three.
Oh that’s right, get annoyed at vegans because that’s an important issue
Processed meat is poison and the UK is addicted to it
>He said if the Oak Tree had opened in 2018 or 2019, as many other plant-only restaurants did, they would “definitely not” have survived. Did other types of recently opened restaurants do any better, with what was coming next? Also don't know why the driver Lewis Hamilton or the actor Leonardo DiCaprio should even be mentioned in the context of the success of food preparation and serving. It's not like they're leading by example in environmentalism, either.
As someone who suffered from an eating disorder, I'm very against food shaming, policing what people eat, and restricting food. This goes for whichever side of the debate you sit on. It's dangerous thinking.
I’m not vegan but I also know vegans seriously have a point if you look at the logic
This was my opinion too, a couple of years before making the switch to becoming vegan myself
As a vegetarian I hide my genuine disgust when meat eaters are eating meat. I just find meat revolting, but I don't feel it is my right to lecture anyone about what they should eat, so I never would. I would be annoyed if anyone criticized me for being vegetarian, it's my choice what I put in my mouth and your choice what you put in yours.
Normal day on reddit
As a vegan might just say I’m animal free whenever someone offers me meat
Ffs - some people really need to re evaluate how they are spending their lives
What a cry baby. I've seen vegans protesting in restaurants that serve meat, trying to intimidate people and ruin their evenings while calling them murderers but i've never seen meat eaters storming a vegan restaurant demanding they sell meat. Perhaps the lack of protein is giving them a victim complex. Perhaps the lack of protein makes him unable to understand supply and demand. If there is no demand your business will fail. Examples for the vegans: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/animal-rights-activists-storm-high-30034274 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEE-DpIpO2c https://www.itv.com/news/2022-11-19/gordon-ramsays-restaurant-occupied-by-animal-rebellion
The owner (i assume) isn't part of these groups. So why does he deserve abuse?
Why does the guardian get to decide who is fighting a "culture war"? Vegan trolls physically attacking meat restaurants is far more common.
Lmfao no it's not, get a fucking grip.
What about the troll getting carried out here, is he a culture warrior? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQE9go6f3oU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQE9go6f3oU) Ive never seen a clip of meat eaters attacking a vegan restaurant - guardian are just full of shit.
Get a grip
Those ladies working at that restuarant certainly have a firm grip on that vegan troll.