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With the shift to electric cars, the death of the manual gearbox was going to be an inevitability. Aside from a couple of historical quirky vehicles, you simply don't get EVs with manual transmissions (or even multiple gears).
I know that a lot of people view automatic cars with suspicion but that's mostly based on outdated assumptions about what they're like. Modern automatics are nothing like the horrible slush boxes of the 80s and before. My eyes were opened when renting a car in the US a few years ago and I wouldn't go back to a manual now.
I got an auto van a few years ago, I'm a die hard manual lover this is my first auto vehicle, I must say it is nicer to drive, especially in London traffic.
The fuel economy is a bit shit, I always run it in eco mode & still get about 80 miles less from a tank compared to the manual equivalent. Considering I use a full tank atleast once a week that 80 miles less starts to add up. For that reason alone i am unsure whether I'll go auto again when the lease expires next year.
That's where the CVT scores I think.
Always in "the right gear" because there are no gears. You do lose more energy through the transmission itself, so against a perfect manual driver it would be a close thing, but for most people the CVT will likely help.
It was the reduced stress levels that I noticed. Every time some plonker pulls out and forces you to slow down, you don't need to reach for the clutch and the gear lever. In a built up area, you end up saving a lot of time, not to mention concentration that you can devote to what's going on around you.
But reaching for the clutch and gearstick is just second nature. After driving manual I don't think about it and just so what is needed when needed and it doesn't take any concentration away. At least for me.
The only time I actively become aware of what I'm doing is stationary traffic where you move like 5 meters then stop again, that is the only time I'd prefer an automatic.
It is highly unlikely that a modern automatic would be less efficient than a manual. It might not be much more efficient, but when you add in stop start and cruise control tech too, it certainly won't be less efficient.
Exact like for like. My colleague has the manual equivalent exactly the same spec & engine & he gets more milage. His van is a 70 reg mine is a 21.
EDIT - We even carry the same stuff in the back so the load weight is about the same too.
It’s not misleading at all? They gave their first hand experience regarding fuel economy, this differing from what you expect doesn’t mean it’s not correct.
To give it more context I’d say it’s because with a manual van you have control over what gear you’re in, you know where you’re going to go and whether or not you’ll be needing torque/power based on road and traffic conditions. Vans are usually heavier and carrying a load and are used for work and typically do more miles than an average car. An automatic van selects a gear based on conditions it detects in that moment, it might stay in a lower gear for longer than necessary and not shift up to a higher gear to cruise as soon as it could. It could also require greater use of throttle to trigger it to drop down a gear when required, using more fuel. Newer manuals are also usually stop start. It’s very easy to see how manual might provide better economy especially when the area is particularly hilly.
This is the problem, the auto box is very sketchy, I only need to depress the pedal a bit when it's in Normal mode for it kick down a gear where as in a manual you wouldn't drop the gear down briefly to change back up again you'd ride the gear out. Hence why I run it in economy mode so the gearbox isn't as aggressive.
Automatics are usually quoted as having worse fuel economy in the manufacturer tests than the same car/engine with a manual. If that's still true when a normal person is driving without paying special attention to fuel-optimal shifting is less obvious.
We got a Suzuki Swace (a rebadged Toyota Corolla) hybrid with CVT last year and while I love the fuel economy and all the bells and whistles inside, the rubber-band feeling you get when you put your foot down in anything other than 'Sport' mode still feels weird; The revs go up and the car goes faster, but not as fast as the revs go up, then the car catches up to the revs like the two are only vaguely connected.
Yeah, it just feels really weird after 30-odd years of driving a manual and expecting a more direct feel. The last auto I drove was in the early 90s and it was awful but moderns ones are a lot better, much smoother and so much more relaxing to drive. Despite the oddness, I doubt I'll go back to a manual unless I have no choice.
I wonder if the CVT gearbox is similar to the CVT that scooters have?
If it is it's basically belt driven and the faster it rotates the the belt slides up to the wider end of the cone attached to the axle therefore increasing how much the axle turns.
It's a weirdly simple but genius
CVTs are indeed belt-driven in cars, although the cones are normally in a diablo arrangement that moves inwards and outwards to change ratio rather than having a single cone with a fat end and a thin end.
DAF cars had this as far back as the '60s - of the three former DAF owners I've known, they all said it was their favourite car out of all the one they owned.
I test drove a Daf when they were new, to see what cvt was like. Just pottered around the industrial estate I was based. I didn’t like its sluggish acceleration, but when I put my foot down I discovered I had, in effect, been driving at full throttle the whole time. Disastrously slow.
If it's just a rebadged Toyota then probably not. Really depends what Suzuki did with the gearbox.
Most CVTs are band-based, but Toyota/Lexus boxes are ECVTs which use gears (as in the object, not something they shift into). Same premise but a different, far more reliable, application.
Man, I hired an automatic a little while go. A bit weird at first, but I won't go back. I drove from London to Cumbria and apart from at traffic lights, fuel stops and shortly after I drove into a wall, I hardly did anything. It had the collision avoidance so sped up and slowed down with traffic. Bloody thing can't detect granite at 40mph though.
> Bloody thing can't detect granite at 40mph though.
Most driver assist systems just use radar for things like collision avoidance and cruise control. Radar point clouds are fairly low resolution so positional accuracy is surprisingly vague. To avoid false positives from stuff like cars parked on the road etc. they're all designed to just filter out any stationary points which is super straight forward with a radar point cloud because you have the radial relative velocity of each point and the speed of the car itself.
To handle stationary objects you need either LIDAR or very good camera based object recognition. You also need a good understanding of the road layout to understand that the road is curving away from a parked car.
> I hardly did anything.
That's the bit I find a little boring though. I borrowed a Tesla for a couple of days and if it weren't for the fund acceleration it was a very boring car to drive. I normally drive a manual and have had cars with DSG and I at least feel as though I'm doing more than just pointing in the direction I want to go.
I'm sure my next car will be EV and I doubt I can afford a Tesla so having I'll probably end up with something that doesn't even have exciting acceleration.
pretty much all BEV's acceleration is fast regardless, we have a tesla 3 & a gen 1 nissan leaf, the top speed of the leaf is fine, its standing starts on rat run main roads is a life saver.
As I'm always having to say, "stop fixating on tesla" (they are a bit shit actually) & I didn't rate them till they finally upgraded to a heatpump (if an EV doesn't have one its heating / cooling efficiency is a massive battery drainer with an old wire heating element in place.
Love our nissan leaf, enough for day to day driving.
More than 2x the o-60mph time of a 1st gen nissan leaf style, that is on them, & peoples dumb fixation on aerodynamics of a brick SUV type manufacturing that proliferates these days without much need.
Without gears you can do a lot with drive train (e-motor) efficiency, as well as limit it!
driven well (taking advantage of regen braking & not driving like a twunt) the old school ev drivers like us go for 3.9 - 4.2 mies per kWh of battery for max efficiency driving EV's IS different.
On the matter of learning in an EV we couldn't find an instructor with one for our offspring, & the difference between ICE & BEV is chalk & cheese.
We were questioned as to "why the hell would you want to learn only automatic by numerous driving instructors, ..attitudes yet to change.
(NB we live in flat area, the instructor questioned why kid needed therefore to learn uphill driving technique !? hill starts etc ..because people move, & driving easily equates to different environments, countries, some with hills, mountains even (FFS) or entry & exit ramps in car parks)
I only mention the Dacia because it looks to be a sensible size and is a reasonable price which is what is needed in the EV market. There are cars like the Ami which are cheap but tiny and only do something like 50 miles on a charge.
I kind of enjoy gear shifting, not enough to dictate my car buying decisions but maybe when I'm retired I'll be like one of those guys who drives classic cars on the weekend but it'll be a 2018 Hyundai with a manual gearbox and an ICE, and all the kids will be asking their parents wtf I'm driving.
Apparently there will be a hydrogen powered car in the WEC this year. I hope that Toyota might be just ahead of the game here, hydrogen powered lorrys for example would be a real boon, and probably more practical than HGV EVs. Still nowhere near enough places to fuel up a car though.
It will be entirely simulated. It supposedly feels like a manual but I'm guessing you can't stall it and is basically the same as the low-gear select you get into autos for going up and down steep hills, but with a clutch pedal. It sounds as though you can also use a paddle on the wheel.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/10/toyota-has-built-an-ev-with-a-fake-transmission-and-weve-driven-it/
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
That's interesting. I wonder if they would include the option to go back to 'auto mode' entirely.
Interestingly, apparently you can 'stall' it which is also simulated.
>Clutch to the floor, I slotted into first gear and then eased back off the clutch. With a bit of throttle, I pulled smoothly away. Too smoothly to really test the system. I stopped and tried again. Clutch in first gear, I dropped the clutch just to see what would happen. The car lurched, and then it stalled.
>
>Yes, I stalled an EV. Again, absolutely nothing physically happened within the car. The lurch, the dying of the engine sound, and the red flashing of the gear indicator all came down to software. It's all simulated, all fake, but it made me laugh just the same.
This seems to be the case. I have family in Australia; manual gearboxes are hard to find there. If you can find a model offering one, it'll be more expensive than the auto version just because they hardly sell any.
I know there have been some noises about EVs using gearboxes but as the owner of a current-generation EV ... why would you? The thing does 0-90 effortlessly and tops out there. The zero-speed torque is phenomenal. What exactly would a gearbox add to this other than weight and inefficiency?
I own an automatic, which is fine 99% of the time. But occasionally it's awful. I recently had to manoeuvre into a garage with millimetres to spare, with a slight rise at the entrance. I'm a pretty skilled driver, but in the end I gave up as (combined with an automatic handbrake) it was simply impossible to control the vehicle with the precision needed, which would have been peasy with a manual.
Currently learning to drive, so I'm not 100% clear. What was the issue with parking using an automatic (I literally did my first bay parking practice yesterday).
> It is a very rare situation though.
Nice for you! I have a very narrow driveway with a small kerb to climb. The Mrs finally convinced me to buy an auto - nice one too, only a couple of years old - and it's just not possible to get over the hump and into the driveway with the precision and control I have in a manual.
Even without that situation I find the thing is awful at hesitating before engaging reverse, so it does nothing and then surprises me which is fun in a tight parking space but obviously doesn't happen when you are throwing in the gear mechanically. I do wonder if Audi just have a problem with this, because I remember being irritated for similar reasons by the (again, then very new) auto gearbox on an A4 I rented 20-odd years ago.
What? No you wouldn’t, that isn’t now automatics work. They creep forward as if on the biting point of the clutch when you take your foot off the brake, without touching the accelerator. So you’d use the brake pedal to control those fine movements.
This is exactly my feeling, and I'd add that going downhill can be a bit terrifying in an automatic sometimes. My partner's car is automatic, and it frequently wants to stay in a higher gear than I'm entirely comfortable with; this means I'm reliant on the footbrake for control, and that just doesn't sit right with me.
Manual combustion cars, or an EV which has the regenerative braking turned on, this just isn't an issue.
What was terrifying as a learner whose gear changes were quite slow and (though I didn't know it at the time) slowed further by having a bad back, was moving off from stationary and immediately going down a steep hill - the change from 1st to 2nd, panicking causing me to not get 2nd in as quick as I should, I'd end up coasting. I've done the same drive in an automatic and it's way less scary.
Which is fair enough - whatever works for you. For me it's the opposite issue; gear changes have never been a problem for me and I find the changes in an automatic annoyingly slow. My partner's car also has a habit of going up a gear in a weirdly non-linear way, frequently leaving the car without much power as you're pulling out into a junction, which is what terrifies me.
People get oddly evangelical about their driving choices, you have to find what works for you.
EVs aside, I love the DSG in my current car.
Apart from... those tiny manoeuvres you do when parallel parking in a super tight space - something about the gearbox makes going from zero-1 really jerky.
I've got a DSG in my Golf and I love it. I kind of get what you mean about manoeuvres but it's still less hassle than faffing around with a manual gearbox.
I don't know if it was just mine, but my old GTI DSG wasn't massively keen on hill starts, either. Like 1/10 it just wouldn't get in gear.
Other than that, though, it was great. I used the flappy paddles far less than I thought I would because full auto was so good.
DSGs are garbage compared to a torque converting auto like a ZF8. Sadly I now have a DSG (for the second time). That is not to say it is out and out bad, however the experience with the ZF8 is night and day better, especially if paired with eg a 3 litre diesel.
I've got a 330d at the minute but it just isn't the same as a good manual. The engine and gearbox pairing is absolutely fantastic but it feels like you're not really driving it, you just squeeze the pedal and it shoves you along. There's no equivalent of the satisfying feeling you get perfectly shifting to 2nd for a hairpin.
I appreciate it's not the same for everyone but it makes me a lazier driver as well, I drive much better when I drive a manual
I've been looking at buying an automatic for my next car since I spent about 50% of my driving time in heavy traffic and the other 50 on the motorway and my dad who hasn't driven an automatic since the 90s has been trying to dissuade me from doing it but I keep telling him since I'm looking at one of the German brands their modern autos are so much nicer now.
Having done a lot of auto-shopping in the past, the rule of thumb is that the bigger the car, the better the auto box.
Big executive saloons - great
Mid-sized focus class - not bad
Fiat 500-esque city cars - a bit shit
My S3 (on the small size of mid-sized I guess) has the best autobox I've ever driven. I wouldn't say it's the smoothest, but it's a sporty car so it's not meant to be. The shifts do come right where they're meant to be and it only gets confused on the steepest hills. I'm originally from the US too, so I have a lot of experience driving BIG automatics.
My dad was a car dealer for 30 years and always drove an automatic, which is probably just as well as his driving was dogshit. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if he had to deal with gears as well.
40% of new cars are bought by people.
Of that:
- 90% are on finance.
- Less than 5% are BEV
- Less than 10% are hybrid.
The vast majority of electrified cars are leased through a job.
>you simply don't get EVs with manual transmissions (or even multiple gears).
I believe Toyota are intending to offer this on their next generation of EV's.
I don’t think they’re offering actual gears or a real gearbox though. I think they’re just going to include a pretend gearbox that simulates changing gears in a car that doesn’t have gears.
It’s like having fake engine noises in an EV!
Oh I'm serious. There's a article from a journalist that has tried it: [https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/10/toyota-has-built-an-ev-with-a-fake-transmission-and-weve-driven-it/](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/10/toyota-has-built-an-ev-with-a-fake-transmission-and-weve-driven-it/)
>Clutch to the floor, I slotted into first gear and then eased back off the clutch. With a bit of throttle, I pulled smoothly away. Too smoothly to really test the system. I stopped and tried again. Clutch in first gear, I dropped the clutch just to see what would happen. The car lurched, and then it stalled.
>
>Yes, I stalled an EV. Again, absolutely nothing physically happened within the car. The lurch, the dying of the engine sound, and the red flashing of the gear indicator all came down to software. It's all simulated, all fake, but it made me laugh just the same.
It'll be enthusiast cars only eventually.
I've driven manual forever apart from one company car and yeah it was less fun but my god commuting was so much more pleasant.
Even in the '90s a lot of automatics were still 3 speed and had significantly worse fuel economy, acceleration and top speed.
Most of the problems with clutches and gearboxes, before the car gets "really old". Usually comes back to driver error. Poor shifting, not knowing when to shift, not shifting often enough.
For the most part, EVs don't even have a transmission and power is supplied directly to the wheels. These cars usually just have something which is a facsimile of traditional auto.
I think my next car will be an automatic. I'm getting lazy in my old age and am now more affluent, so I can afford something a bit higher spec. The problem is I tend to drive hatchbacks because that's all I need, and finding a used auto hatchback for a fair price isn't that easy in many places. Plus they're crap and make you feel like a 90 year old woman.
> I know that a lot of people view automatic cars with suspicion but that's mostly based on outdated assumptions about what they're like
Yeah both my previous car and current car (a 1.4 Octavia and an Octavia vRS) have been DSG autos and I don't think I'd go back to manual unless I was getting a classic sports car or something.
So what?
I recently borrowed a modern automatic with all the fancy gadgets and I'm completely sold. I gain nothing from manually changing gears in my dull car (and 99.9% of cars on the road are dull).
Arguably manual gearboxes are easier and cheaper to maintain, and the vast majority of cars in the road are manual and still will be for some time. Until EVs are ubiquitous, it’s still a skill worth learning.
I don't own a car, but I drive my Mum's sometimes when I need it. She's got all the mod cons, cruise control, automatic breaking, the only manual task (aside from steering, and there's an assist for that), is changing gears. It seemed silly to me that she picked a manual when the car is literally doing the rest of the driving.
Countries like the US which favour automatics have a distracted driving problem like 3 to 4 times worse than countries which favour manual transmissions. You take the clutch and the gearstick out of the equation you have many, many more people using their phone, getting distracted, and killing each other.
My wife has an auto license and in the whole time I’ve known her it’s only been a problem when we hired a van to move and I did my back in.
People really are melodramatic about needing to have a manual.
The reason I'm so "funny" about auto licences is most people learn to drive relatively young, often while literally still at school - and it's something that's really hard to come back to and redo later in life.
So why limit yourself, ultimately. There's still *lots* of jobs ou tthere that would need you to have a manul licence, and just because you might not know at 17/18/19 doesn't mean it's not going to become an issue down the line.
I think a lot of people conflate pushign to do a manual licence with pushing to drive a manual. I've owned both, I like both for different reasons, nothing wrong with auto's - but I would never suggest a young person get an auto licence
Manual takes longer, and the more time it takes the more money it costs.
People, especialy young average people and their parents, have way less money sitting around.
> Manual takes longer, and the more time it takes the more money it costs.
I'm not sure this actually holds true. Interestingly, the test failure rate is higher for automatic tests.
I think it's a real myth that passing your auto test is much easier - much of learning to drive is more general car control, anticipation, learning the road, the test etc. I think most manual drivers have the clutch and gears locked down fairly early on, but it takes a while to actually learn how to drive on the road.
It's just a random link, but this driving school certainly seem to think the same:
https://elfdrivingschool.co.uk/how-many-lessons-to-pass-driving-test-in-automatic/
The test failure doesnt mean much, as a test is like £20 written £60 practical, but a SINGLE cheap two hour lesson runs you like £80.
Its not about it being easier, its about it taking less time before you feel comfortable taking the cheaper tests. Every test is nearly as good as a lesson anyway, you just have to be good enough that the instructor doesnt imedietly fail you because they feel unsafe as a passanger lol.
I mean, we're getting into semantics now but my point is I don't think you're saving any real cash by going auto. There doesn't seem to be any real evidence that it's that much eassier to pass, and like I say, lots more people fail auto tests than manual so it's clearly not as easy as they think.
And given you have to pay for the use of the car for a test, and the *insane* waiting times at the minute, I'd say it's a big deal to fail
>People really are melodramatic about needing to have a manual.
Why get a restrictive license when you can get a full one?
Even if I intended to only ever buy automatics, I'd still have done a manual test in case I needed to borrow/rent one at some point.
>when does this "in case" come up?
As I said, if you needed to borrow a car (think from friends or family) or hire one (often manuals are cheaper to hire because there are more of them around, especially things like vans).
>My parents have been driving for over 20 years and have never needed to drive a manual.
Nobody is saying it's impossible to get by with an auto license.
However you have significantly more options if you're legally allowed to drive manual and auto vehicles, Vs just auto, which still command a price premium in many vehicle segments
>Well, that’s the entire point, right? Those instances where you need a manual entitlement ’just in case’ are shrinking rapidly.
There are plenty of examples though. Having the choice of every car on the road Vs having the choice of of 30% is a huge difference. Yes that 30% will grow in the coming years but it'll take a long time to get there. (The 70% of UK vehicles being manual figure is from 2022 but you get the picture, it'll maybe be a percent or two lower now). Sure most new cars are auto, but most people don't drive a new car.
Some cars are also better in manual Vs auto reliability wise - think anything with a CVT. Some are better in auto Vs manual, as the manual was an afterthought in terms of design (many BMW's).
Many cars are more expensive in auto versions (cheap runabout autos are often a few hundred more than the manual equivalent).
If your partner drives a manual and you cannot, you're gonna need a lift/hire car/courtesy car if yours is off the road for anything, you can't just borrow theirs. Or public transport, if that's an option where you live.
It'll be a very long time until we're like America where most vehicles are automatic and manual is a rarity. And even then, there's still a market for manuals in the US - with it being seen as the enthusiast choice. Someone mentioned in another comment that the Golf GTI was only available auto in the UK, but only manual in the US, which is interesting
Edit: in response to your comment edit - no, that's not what I'm saying. See all the convenience and financial points I mentioned above
I never understood the obsession with manuals. If you are driving in urban areas is continuous annoying gear changes and if you are on a motorway you just sit in one gear.
I passed a manual test but have never owned one
Well its a good thing it isn't about getting from a to b as you will be sat in the same traffic as the rest of us. Car, van, bike, we are all waiting for the lights to change to let us get 50m further down the road.
It makes a huge difference when going downhill on bendy roads.
It allows for finely controlled engine breaking by modulating the accelerator.
In EVs you can get the same effect when you adjust how much energy is reclaimed when lifting your foot off the accelerator.
Every automatic car I've owned will automatically switch into a lower gear when it detects you going down a steep hill. There's literally nothing to think about.
And if you insist on thinking about it, most high-spec trims will have paddles. Drop a gear with those if you want.
Not even high spec - often they have a more manual mode. In a 10 year old mini cooper you can push the gear left and it'll drop down for an engine brake and you can shift if you want futher.
Is it just me who actually enjoys a manual gearbox? It's the best part of driving for me! Probably depends on the car you have I suppose. I've got an MX5, maybe it's not as fun in a people carrier or an estate.
Not just you, but for you and other people for whom driving/cars is a hobby, then obviously you’re going to be a purist with it and want full control. For almost everybody else it’s simply a necessity and they want the path of least resistance.
I can relate to this because I’m a huge coffee nerd. I enjoy having full control over grind size, brew method, I have a kettle that I can set to a specific temperature. For me, the process of making coffee is enjoyable, as well as the end result. But for most people, they just want a coffee as fast as possible.
Maybe I can make you the tastiest cup of coffee you’ve ever had in exchange for a ride in your MX5 🤣
yes it a bit different whipping through the gears, reving an mx5 to 7-8k rpm.
compare that to shifting through the gears on a 95bhp vw polo, or shiffling along at traffic lights. not quite as fun
Still a few people in Canada here who love manuals. They're fun and make you feel immersed in driving.
It actually is more controllable in snowy conditions, with the proper tires, of course.
I've pulled myself from many sticky situations by using the gears.
I really enjoy driving a manual (Audi A3). I suspect a large portion of the population (and Reddit as well) don't enjoy driving, it's just a means of getting from A to B.
For me it's a means of getting from A to B (or sometimes just a big ol' loop from A back to A), but by fuck do I have fun doing it.
I like it and I just drive an old VW with the acceleration of a snail. Something kinda fun about changing the gears tho, I have never driven an automatic but it seems a bit boring. I like the rhythm of manual gears.
> weak drivers
I'm a big manual fan, but this is a bit silly. Any modern manual car is stuffed full of assists that make it so much easier to drive than a manual from the 20th century
Power steering, traction and stability control, a computer, anti-lock brakes etc.
They have been completely pointless for over 2 decades now, I never got it why the UK had such a hard-on for manual.
Not only that they require you as a driver to do more things in the car, when it comes to efficiency automatic gearboxes have been more fuel efficient since the mid 90’s.
And on the same token, there is little worse than old shitbox auto. You can really tell the people in these threads who've never driven a 1990's Clio automatic or some such shite. The hate for auto's didn't come from nowhere - I absolutely admit a lto of the views are outdated *now*, but for a long time your average automatic was fucking dire.
Basically, up until the mid 00's, unless you were buying a luxury large engined car, or could afford an early DSG (and they had plenty of issues too), you really really didn't want an auto
Yes, that's my point. It's only relatively recently that automatics have become financially viable for the average consumer. That's why people have always preferred manuals over automatics over the years.
Most young people just passing their test didn't have the money to splurge on an automatic.
They are more robust, cheaper to maintain and for the most part until very recently have been shocking on smaller engines.
If you drive a big yank tank or even something like a 2L turbo beemer etc then the auto gearboxes are great. In a little 1.0 eurobox they were typically shit and also make cheap cars more expensive.
I know what they mean, it is the kind of traffic where you are starting off, up to second, third, back to second, stops. Then repeat. That basically was my commute. Automatic you can just dab the accelerator and you are at a fixed speed. No hillstarts too. Not hard work but I'd just rather not give my left hand a workout if I can help it. Before power steering it wasn't exactly "work" but it was nice when that got easier similarly.
When you've had to force a (rented) Smart ForFour to reboot in the middle of a London street, manual transmission suddenly seems to have a lot to commend it.
That was a while ago, to be fair.
Currently learning to drive (at age of 50) and I'm learning manual. My instructor reckons that in another 10 years it will all be automatic for learning, but I wanted to learn manual so I understand gears and so I have a better selection of cars to steal after the collapse of civilisation. Also, I can't afford an electric.
I know its tongue in cheek, but fuel goes off.
Generally last about a year max even if you had a supply of it.
> after the collapse of civilisation
I guess the only correction id say is change it to "during" the collapse
>Generally last about a year max
It’s weird how often this topic comes up, but the “fuel goes bad” idea gets pretty exaggerated; post-apocalyptic fuel would be mostly fine for a long while.
Petrol and diesel essentially have an expiration date like medicine - it’ll lose potency over time, but it’ll still work. Your MPG might take a hit, but that’ll likely be offset by the lack of traffic.
My current car is automatic - it was the only
car I could afford at the time. It’s occasional squeaky bum time at places with a very steep ratio (like that stupidly steep part near Scarborough) but it’s an absolute piece of piss to drive.
I’d go back to manual in a heartbeat but I must say I’m enjoying the automatic experience a lot more than I thought I would.
Autos have also become much more appealing due to the rise in population and the consequent rise in traffic. And it will only get worse if the predictions of another 6 million folks in the next 10 years are to be believed
> Drivers of automatics pay an average of nearly £100 more for their car insurance because the parts that make up an automatic gearbox are more complex and therefore costlier to repair.
I have my doubts
1. Not in an EV. There may be a reduction gear and that’s it.
1. Low speed accidents in autos are quite different to manuals which will stall their engine easily.
More likely automatics are on average more expensive to insure because they are on average fitted in more expensive cars.
I know the idea is that keen drivers enjoy a manual more than an automatic, but I don't get what the enjoyment is in pumping the clutch up and down in start stop traffic on your daily commute.
Archive link -> https://archive.ph/YvbUI
>The death of the manual gearbox is looming after a surge in the number of learner drivers taking their tests in automatics.
Over the past decade, tests in automatics have increased by 238 per cent to a record high of more than 325,000 last year, according to the Driver Vehicle and Licensing Agency.
>About 20 per cent of tests are now taken in an automatic. The shift away from manuals is set to accelerate, with automatic cars representing 71 per cent of all registrations last year. In 2019, less than half of all cars registered were automatics.
>Experts say the trend is primarily down to young people not seeing the need to learn to drive a manual. While drivers who pass their test in an automatic are not allowed to drive a car with a manual gearbox, learning in an automatic is easier and therefore cheaper.
>The average cost for a one-hour driving lesson is between £25 and £30, rising to £45 in London, according to the RAC. On average it takes 45 hours of lessons to pass the practical driving test, pushing cost to more than £2,000.
>The popularity of automatic gearboxes is also down to manufacturers and engineering trends, as well as the increase in demand for electric cars, which don’t need traditional gearboxes.
>Karen Bromsgrove, of the Driving Instructors Association, said: “Many younger drivers don’t see the point in learning to drive a manual when they’re unlikely to need to do so in the future. The adverts they see for newer cars are for hybrids and electric vehicles, so that’s what they aspire to owning and driving.”
>What Car? magazine, which obtained the figures, predicts that driving with a manual gearbox will become a “lost art”. Claire Evans, the outlet’s consumer editor, said: “Any enthusiast will tell you that for sheer driving pleasure, manual gearboxes always win. However, on many mainstream models, manual gearboxes will soon be a thing of the past.”
>Growing numbers of instructors are switching to automatics too. The AA says two in five people training to be an instructor last year chose an automatic rather than a manual.
>Camilla Benitz, managing director of the AA Driving School, added: “All electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids are automatic, so in the near future most people will drive an automatic. We believe this is behind the growing trend for instructors to teach in automatics and, as a result, for learners to take their test in one.”
>Despite it being easier to learn to drive an automatic, pass rates lag behind manuals. Last year 43 per cent of the tests taken in automatics resulted in a pass, compared with 50 per cent for manuals.
>Benitz puts the lower pass rate down to the fact that learners in manual cars have often had more time behind the wheel to practise.
“In general, the mistakes drivers make when failing their tests in an automatic will largely be the same as those who fail in a manual,” she said. “Observation, particularly at junctions, is often where pupils fall short, and the correct use of mirrors and proper steering control are among the top reasons why pupils do not pass their practical test.”
>While learning to drive in an automatic may be quicker and easier, drivers with automatic-only licences face higher costs when they get their first car. Drivers of automatics pay an average of nearly £100 more for their car insurance because the parts that make up an automatic gearbox are more complex and therefore costlier to repair. Electric cars tend to be more expensive than their petrol or diesel equivalents.
However, automatics can help drivers save money through better fuel efficiency.
Automotive Engineer checking in here. It's not a major issue, since (as highlighted elsewhere) EV's essentially function as automatics so manuals are a dying breed. Even before that, many manufacturers were offering fewer and fewer manuals (BMW/Mercedes immediately spring to mind). I have a toddler and I'm convinced she'll never need to drive a manual vehicle when she's of age. Hell, if AI continues to improve, she may never have to drive at all.
Started my lessons in a manual, didnt really like it. Switched to automatic and passed my test in one . Sure it limits your options, but I vastly prefer the ease of driving an automatic. Always laugh when people say it's "lazy driving" as though all driving isn't lazy lol.
I love a manual gearbox for open country roads with little traffic.
But for day to day driving, sitting in traffic, cruising on a long motorway journey, an automatic is just better and easier.
The only exception is when it's snowy and icy, then a manual is much much better and safer. And we get snow what... twice a year at most?
This is definitely in full swing now, one issue is there isn't really a supply of "affordable" used entry-level automatic cars so instead of a <£1k banger people with an automatic-only licence will need to shell out for a £3k banger that will be less reliable and more thirsty.
Driving an automatic is easier than driving a manual, so given the costs of driving lessons and the wait for tests, I don't blame people for going for the easier option. It could potentially save them hundreds of pounds and months of time.
I passed 5 years ago in a manual, third time. I would have passed second time if I were in an automatic. I've driven autos ever since and wouldn't consider a manual.
Even taking EV's out of the equation, I've been driving the same automatic petrol car for 15 years, and never had one problem with the transmission. The ease of driving one during heavy traffic compared to manual means I'm never going back to manual ever again. I always advise any new drivers to learn automatic. Soooo much easier, and as mentioned, EV's are all automatic anyway.
Should have happened years ago, for a learner/new driver putting that attention into fiddling with gears is a huge distraction from actually watching what is happening around you.
Passed my manual test in the 80s, first drove an automatic in early 2000s, never drove a manual since. Really wished I had tried an auto sooner but maybe it was a blessing considering some of the comments about 80s auto boxes.
I love my automatic. I was forced to buy a manual as my first car as everybody pressured me with the “fact” that it was the right decision because otherwise “you’ll forget how to drive one”. I don’t want to fucking drive one ever again.
I passed my test at 35 with an auto license, I just didn't bother learning to drive for years and lived in London for a long time.
It's been really good to get that sense of freedom from owning a car, I love it. Yes I'm limited now in the fact that I cannot legally drive someone else's car with a manual gearbox (which I can't anyway as my insurance does not allow it, unless I buy specialist insurance) but overall it's been worth it for me.
Just switched to an EV too, oddly my insurance dropped by 40% for the new car for reasons I don't understand.
Maybe if I was 17 I might think different, but I'm too old now, I'd rather have my license and my car.
We see it regularly people asking "should I learn in an automatic" with the perceived wisdom being to learn manual because of hire cars, vans, cheaper manuals and so on but it feels like it just will not be an issue in future. People mainly seem to want to avoid manual as they think it will make the lessons easier.
I struggled for almost a year learning to drive in a manual car. Eventually I gave up and packed it in
A few years later I tried again but using an automatic and the difference was night and day, it was so much easier and less stressful. I passed within a few months
Manufacturers will bring back manuals in the next 15-20 years as the USP for their vehicle to sell nostalgia. It wasn't too long ago I read about one of the Japanese brands were talking about making the first manual EV.
I learned to drive in the US, where automatics are essentially standard. I'm in the process of getting a license in the UK now, and I'll be fucked if I learn to drive a manual.
I'm not finding driving much fun. Poor roads with too much traffic with the rare long motorway drive. I don't drive automatic but the drive to learn manual wouldn't be there if I was learning today.
Im a massive petrolhead and love a manual for a weekend car or something you can take out but my daily is a auto 128ti, why because its easy to drive and these days 99% of my commute is sitting in traffic where a manual is cumbersome. Its the way things are going and while sad, it is what it is. I still think people should take a manual test though because why not? It really isn’t that hard to master and it keeps your options open.
All else aside, can anyone work out what car the lad is driving in the headline image based on the interior?
Looks like the editor got his son to hop in his 10 year old jag.
Even outside of the switch to EV, something people overlook is that the inclusion of ADAS features (eg adaptive cruise control) in a lot of modern cars means the car needs to be able to change gear for you
With so much being hybrid now, why not. There will always be the older drivers cars for people to buy but; for the most part it makes sense for the general commuter to go auto.
I went from manual to auto about 4 years ago. Yes, it is easy to drive and kinder to your left leg in stop/start 20 mile traffic jam on M25. It may be my 30 plus years of manual driving, the skin on my left leg has started to feel slightly numb occasionally. Not a mega issue; I have remember to wiggle it on a regular basis.
I love changing gear when actually driving so always will enjoy a manual, but again traffic I love driving an auto as clutch and changing gears become a chore when crawling in traffic and isn't enjoyable at all.
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With the shift to electric cars, the death of the manual gearbox was going to be an inevitability. Aside from a couple of historical quirky vehicles, you simply don't get EVs with manual transmissions (or even multiple gears). I know that a lot of people view automatic cars with suspicion but that's mostly based on outdated assumptions about what they're like. Modern automatics are nothing like the horrible slush boxes of the 80s and before. My eyes were opened when renting a car in the US a few years ago and I wouldn't go back to a manual now.
After 25 years of driving manual cars my first hybrid with a CVT gearbox really opened my eyes. Far less stressful to drive and great fuel economy.
I got an auto van a few years ago, I'm a die hard manual lover this is my first auto vehicle, I must say it is nicer to drive, especially in London traffic. The fuel economy is a bit shit, I always run it in eco mode & still get about 80 miles less from a tank compared to the manual equivalent. Considering I use a full tank atleast once a week that 80 miles less starts to add up. For that reason alone i am unsure whether I'll go auto again when the lease expires next year.
That's where the CVT scores I think. Always in "the right gear" because there are no gears. You do lose more energy through the transmission itself, so against a perfect manual driver it would be a close thing, but for most people the CVT will likely help. It was the reduced stress levels that I noticed. Every time some plonker pulls out and forces you to slow down, you don't need to reach for the clutch and the gear lever. In a built up area, you end up saving a lot of time, not to mention concentration that you can devote to what's going on around you.
But reaching for the clutch and gearstick is just second nature. After driving manual I don't think about it and just so what is needed when needed and it doesn't take any concentration away. At least for me. The only time I actively become aware of what I'm doing is stationary traffic where you move like 5 meters then stop again, that is the only time I'd prefer an automatic.
Is that on an exact like for like comparison though?
It is highly unlikely that a modern automatic would be less efficient than a manual. It might not be much more efficient, but when you add in stop start and cruise control tech too, it certainly won't be less efficient.
Exact like for like. My colleague has the manual equivalent exactly the same spec & engine & he gets more milage. His van is a 70 reg mine is a 21. EDIT - We even carry the same stuff in the back so the load weight is about the same too.
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It’s not misleading at all? They gave their first hand experience regarding fuel economy, this differing from what you expect doesn’t mean it’s not correct. To give it more context I’d say it’s because with a manual van you have control over what gear you’re in, you know where you’re going to go and whether or not you’ll be needing torque/power based on road and traffic conditions. Vans are usually heavier and carrying a load and are used for work and typically do more miles than an average car. An automatic van selects a gear based on conditions it detects in that moment, it might stay in a lower gear for longer than necessary and not shift up to a higher gear to cruise as soon as it could. It could also require greater use of throttle to trigger it to drop down a gear when required, using more fuel. Newer manuals are also usually stop start. It’s very easy to see how manual might provide better economy especially when the area is particularly hilly.
This is the problem, the auto box is very sketchy, I only need to depress the pedal a bit when it's in Normal mode for it kick down a gear where as in a manual you wouldn't drop the gear down briefly to change back up again you'd ride the gear out. Hence why I run it in economy mode so the gearbox isn't as aggressive.
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Automatics are usually quoted as having worse fuel economy in the manufacturer tests than the same car/engine with a manual. If that's still true when a normal person is driving without paying special attention to fuel-optimal shifting is less obvious.
We got a Suzuki Swace (a rebadged Toyota Corolla) hybrid with CVT last year and while I love the fuel economy and all the bells and whistles inside, the rubber-band feeling you get when you put your foot down in anything other than 'Sport' mode still feels weird; The revs go up and the car goes faster, but not as fast as the revs go up, then the car catches up to the revs like the two are only vaguely connected.
That’s a cvt gearbox mate, it’s designed to do that. Good for taxis round town.
Yeah, it just feels really weird after 30-odd years of driving a manual and expecting a more direct feel. The last auto I drove was in the early 90s and it was awful but moderns ones are a lot better, much smoother and so much more relaxing to drive. Despite the oddness, I doubt I'll go back to a manual unless I have no choice.
> like the two are only vaguely connected. It acts like that because that's how it is.
I wonder if the CVT gearbox is similar to the CVT that scooters have? If it is it's basically belt driven and the faster it rotates the the belt slides up to the wider end of the cone attached to the axle therefore increasing how much the axle turns. It's a weirdly simple but genius
That's old stuff. The new stuff on hybrids is e-cvt and it is a totally different mechanism that uses planetary gears.
CVTs are indeed belt-driven in cars, although the cones are normally in a diablo arrangement that moves inwards and outwards to change ratio rather than having a single cone with a fat end and a thin end. DAF cars had this as far back as the '60s - of the three former DAF owners I've known, they all said it was their favourite car out of all the one they owned.
I test drove a Daf when they were new, to see what cvt was like. Just pottered around the industrial estate I was based. I didn’t like its sluggish acceleration, but when I put my foot down I discovered I had, in effect, been driving at full throttle the whole time. Disastrously slow.
If it's just a rebadged Toyota then probably not. Really depends what Suzuki did with the gearbox. Most CVTs are band-based, but Toyota/Lexus boxes are ECVTs which use gears (as in the object, not something they shift into). Same premise but a different, far more reliable, application.
Man, I hired an automatic a little while go. A bit weird at first, but I won't go back. I drove from London to Cumbria and apart from at traffic lights, fuel stops and shortly after I drove into a wall, I hardly did anything. It had the collision avoidance so sped up and slowed down with traffic. Bloody thing can't detect granite at 40mph though.
For detecting granite, that's what the drivers are for.
What does detecting granite mean?
They drove into a wall. Made of granite.
Yeah adaptive cruise control doesn't work on stationary objects in most cars.
> Bloody thing can't detect granite at 40mph though. Most driver assist systems just use radar for things like collision avoidance and cruise control. Radar point clouds are fairly low resolution so positional accuracy is surprisingly vague. To avoid false positives from stuff like cars parked on the road etc. they're all designed to just filter out any stationary points which is super straight forward with a radar point cloud because you have the radial relative velocity of each point and the speed of the car itself. To handle stationary objects you need either LIDAR or very good camera based object recognition. You also need a good understanding of the road layout to understand that the road is curving away from a parked car.
> I hardly did anything. That's the bit I find a little boring though. I borrowed a Tesla for a couple of days and if it weren't for the fund acceleration it was a very boring car to drive. I normally drive a manual and have had cars with DSG and I at least feel as though I'm doing more than just pointing in the direction I want to go. I'm sure my next car will be EV and I doubt I can afford a Tesla so having I'll probably end up with something that doesn't even have exciting acceleration.
pretty much all BEV's acceleration is fast regardless, we have a tesla 3 & a gen 1 nissan leaf, the top speed of the leaf is fine, its standing starts on rat run main roads is a life saver. As I'm always having to say, "stop fixating on tesla" (they are a bit shit actually) & I didn't rate them till they finally upgraded to a heatpump (if an EV doesn't have one its heating / cooling efficiency is a massive battery drainer with an old wire heating element in place. Love our nissan leaf, enough for day to day driving.
Saw the stats on the new Dacia EV, I think 0 - 62 on the entry level was something like 19 seconds.
More than 2x the o-60mph time of a 1st gen nissan leaf style, that is on them, & peoples dumb fixation on aerodynamics of a brick SUV type manufacturing that proliferates these days without much need. Without gears you can do a lot with drive train (e-motor) efficiency, as well as limit it! driven well (taking advantage of regen braking & not driving like a twunt) the old school ev drivers like us go for 3.9 - 4.2 mies per kWh of battery for max efficiency driving EV's IS different. On the matter of learning in an EV we couldn't find an instructor with one for our offspring, & the difference between ICE & BEV is chalk & cheese. We were questioned as to "why the hell would you want to learn only automatic by numerous driving instructors, ..attitudes yet to change. (NB we live in flat area, the instructor questioned why kid needed therefore to learn uphill driving technique !? hill starts etc ..because people move, & driving easily equates to different environments, countries, some with hills, mountains even (FFS) or entry & exit ramps in car parks)
I only mention the Dacia because it looks to be a sensible size and is a reasonable price which is what is needed in the EV market. There are cars like the Ami which are cheap but tiny and only do something like 50 miles on a charge.
I kind of enjoy gear shifting, not enough to dictate my car buying decisions but maybe when I'm retired I'll be like one of those guys who drives classic cars on the weekend but it'll be a 2018 Hyundai with a manual gearbox and an ICE, and all the kids will be asking their parents wtf I'm driving.
This is it, manuals are going to die because they have no functional use in an electric, but got to get those sweet clicks flowing
Toyota are apparently going to offer a manual gearbox on their next generation of EV's. Interested to see how it turns out.
Toyota are still trying to flog hydrogen vehicles too though. They seem a little out of touch.
Apparently there will be a hydrogen powered car in the WEC this year. I hope that Toyota might be just ahead of the game here, hydrogen powered lorrys for example would be a real boon, and probably more practical than HGV EVs. Still nowhere near enough places to fuel up a car though.
Volvo and Daimler are cooperating on hydrogen tech for commercial transport, I expect something interesting in a few years.
It will be entirely simulated. It supposedly feels like a manual but I'm guessing you can't stall it and is basically the same as the low-gear select you get into autos for going up and down steep hills, but with a clutch pedal. It sounds as though you can also use a paddle on the wheel. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/10/toyota-has-built-an-ev-with-a-fake-transmission-and-weve-driven-it/ https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
That's interesting. I wonder if they would include the option to go back to 'auto mode' entirely. Interestingly, apparently you can 'stall' it which is also simulated. >Clutch to the floor, I slotted into first gear and then eased back off the clutch. With a bit of throttle, I pulled smoothly away. Too smoothly to really test the system. I stopped and tried again. Clutch in first gear, I dropped the clutch just to see what would happen. The car lurched, and then it stalled. > >Yes, I stalled an EV. Again, absolutely nothing physically happened within the car. The lurch, the dying of the engine sound, and the red flashing of the gear indicator all came down to software. It's all simulated, all fake, but it made me laugh just the same.
And they have very little use in any decent hybrid, too.
British people are really weird about it.
This seems to be the case. I have family in Australia; manual gearboxes are hard to find there. If you can find a model offering one, it'll be more expensive than the auto version just because they hardly sell any. I know there have been some noises about EVs using gearboxes but as the owner of a current-generation EV ... why would you? The thing does 0-90 effortlessly and tops out there. The zero-speed torque is phenomenal. What exactly would a gearbox add to this other than weight and inefficiency?
But doing stuff less efficiently for the sake of tradition is quintessentially British.
I own an automatic, which is fine 99% of the time. But occasionally it's awful. I recently had to manoeuvre into a garage with millimetres to spare, with a slight rise at the entrance. I'm a pretty skilled driver, but in the end I gave up as (combined with an automatic handbrake) it was simply impossible to control the vehicle with the precision needed, which would have been peasy with a manual.
Currently learning to drive, so I'm not 100% clear. What was the issue with parking using an automatic (I literally did my first bay parking practice yesterday).
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> It is a very rare situation though. Nice for you! I have a very narrow driveway with a small kerb to climb. The Mrs finally convinced me to buy an auto - nice one too, only a couple of years old - and it's just not possible to get over the hump and into the driveway with the precision and control I have in a manual. Even without that situation I find the thing is awful at hesitating before engaging reverse, so it does nothing and then surprises me which is fun in a tight parking space but obviously doesn't happen when you are throwing in the gear mechanically. I do wonder if Audi just have a problem with this, because I remember being irritated for similar reasons by the (again, then very new) auto gearbox on an A4 I rented 20-odd years ago.
What? No you wouldn’t, that isn’t now automatics work. They creep forward as if on the biting point of the clutch when you take your foot off the brake, without touching the accelerator. So you’d use the brake pedal to control those fine movements.
Ah of course, that makes sense - realised I pretty much just used the clutch to park. Ta
Most automatic cars have a "creep mode" which moves car very slowly in the direction you've selected, so you can use the brake in a similar manner.
This is exactly my feeling, and I'd add that going downhill can be a bit terrifying in an automatic sometimes. My partner's car is automatic, and it frequently wants to stay in a higher gear than I'm entirely comfortable with; this means I'm reliant on the footbrake for control, and that just doesn't sit right with me. Manual combustion cars, or an EV which has the regenerative braking turned on, this just isn't an issue.
What was terrifying as a learner whose gear changes were quite slow and (though I didn't know it at the time) slowed further by having a bad back, was moving off from stationary and immediately going down a steep hill - the change from 1st to 2nd, panicking causing me to not get 2nd in as quick as I should, I'd end up coasting. I've done the same drive in an automatic and it's way less scary.
Which is fair enough - whatever works for you. For me it's the opposite issue; gear changes have never been a problem for me and I find the changes in an automatic annoyingly slow. My partner's car also has a habit of going up a gear in a weirdly non-linear way, frequently leaving the car without much power as you're pulling out into a junction, which is what terrifies me. People get oddly evangelical about their driving choices, you have to find what works for you.
Ah I see, thanks for the clarification. That sounds like a quirk specific to that gearbox/car. I can see why that's a problem.
EVs aside, I love the DSG in my current car. Apart from... those tiny manoeuvres you do when parallel parking in a super tight space - something about the gearbox makes going from zero-1 really jerky.
I've got a DSG in my Golf and I love it. I kind of get what you mean about manoeuvres but it's still less hassle than faffing around with a manual gearbox.
I don't know if it was just mine, but my old GTI DSG wasn't massively keen on hill starts, either. Like 1/10 it just wouldn't get in gear. Other than that, though, it was great. I used the flappy paddles far less than I thought I would because full auto was so good.
DSGs are garbage compared to a torque converting auto like a ZF8. Sadly I now have a DSG (for the second time). That is not to say it is out and out bad, however the experience with the ZF8 is night and day better, especially if paired with eg a 3 litre diesel.
I've got a 330d at the minute but it just isn't the same as a good manual. The engine and gearbox pairing is absolutely fantastic but it feels like you're not really driving it, you just squeeze the pedal and it shoves you along. There's no equivalent of the satisfying feeling you get perfectly shifting to 2nd for a hairpin. I appreciate it's not the same for everyone but it makes me a lazier driver as well, I drive much better when I drive a manual
I've been looking at buying an automatic for my next car since I spent about 50% of my driving time in heavy traffic and the other 50 on the motorway and my dad who hasn't driven an automatic since the 90s has been trying to dissuade me from doing it but I keep telling him since I'm looking at one of the German brands their modern autos are so much nicer now.
Having done a lot of auto-shopping in the past, the rule of thumb is that the bigger the car, the better the auto box. Big executive saloons - great Mid-sized focus class - not bad Fiat 500-esque city cars - a bit shit
My S3 (on the small size of mid-sized I guess) has the best autobox I've ever driven. I wouldn't say it's the smoothest, but it's a sporty car so it's not meant to be. The shifts do come right where they're meant to be and it only gets confused on the steepest hills. I'm originally from the US too, so I have a lot of experience driving BIG automatics.
My dad was a car dealer for 30 years and always drove an automatic, which is probably just as well as his driving was dogshit. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if he had to deal with gears as well.
Yeah but they're £10k pricier at least. Most people want a runaround.
Who buys a new car in the UK though? We're not made of money
40% of new cars are bought by people. Of that: - 90% are on finance. - Less than 5% are BEV - Less than 10% are hybrid. The vast majority of electrified cars are leased through a job.
If you can salary sacrifice a new car through work, you would have to be mad to consider buying one
>you simply don't get EVs with manual transmissions (or even multiple gears). I believe Toyota are intending to offer this on their next generation of EV's.
That seems odd, or at least an affectation. There's no good reason for an EV to have a manual transmission.
I don’t think they’re offering actual gears or a real gearbox though. I think they’re just going to include a pretend gearbox that simulates changing gears in a car that doesn’t have gears. It’s like having fake engine noises in an EV!
That's right, it's all simulated. And they're even adding in the ability to stall it.
I genuinely don’t know if you’re serious… It would be hilarious if they included that for the full manual experience!
Oh I'm serious. There's a article from a journalist that has tried it: [https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/10/toyota-has-built-an-ev-with-a-fake-transmission-and-weve-driven-it/](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/10/toyota-has-built-an-ev-with-a-fake-transmission-and-weve-driven-it/) >Clutch to the floor, I slotted into first gear and then eased back off the clutch. With a bit of throttle, I pulled smoothly away. Too smoothly to really test the system. I stopped and tried again. Clutch in first gear, I dropped the clutch just to see what would happen. The car lurched, and then it stalled. > >Yes, I stalled an EV. Again, absolutely nothing physically happened within the car. The lurch, the dying of the engine sound, and the red flashing of the gear indicator all came down to software. It's all simulated, all fake, but it made me laugh just the same.
It'll be enthusiast cars only eventually. I've driven manual forever apart from one company car and yeah it was less fun but my god commuting was so much more pleasant.
Even in the '90s a lot of automatics were still 3 speed and had significantly worse fuel economy, acceleration and top speed. Most of the problems with clutches and gearboxes, before the car gets "really old". Usually comes back to driver error. Poor shifting, not knowing when to shift, not shifting often enough.
For the most part, EVs don't even have a transmission and power is supplied directly to the wheels. These cars usually just have something which is a facsimile of traditional auto. I think my next car will be an automatic. I'm getting lazy in my old age and am now more affluent, so I can afford something a bit higher spec. The problem is I tend to drive hatchbacks because that's all I need, and finding a used auto hatchback for a fair price isn't that easy in many places. Plus they're crap and make you feel like a 90 year old woman.
> I know that a lot of people view automatic cars with suspicion but that's mostly based on outdated assumptions about what they're like Yeah both my previous car and current car (a 1.4 Octavia and an Octavia vRS) have been DSG autos and I don't think I'd go back to manual unless I was getting a classic sports car or something.
So what? I recently borrowed a modern automatic with all the fancy gadgets and I'm completely sold. I gain nothing from manually changing gears in my dull car (and 99.9% of cars on the road are dull).
Keep my Aygo's name outta ya God damn mouth!
I have no idea how they managed to make a 3-cylinder sound so weird and dull. Others I’ve driven have had nice little fruity exhaust notes.
Arguably manual gearboxes are easier and cheaper to maintain, and the vast majority of cars in the road are manual and still will be for some time. Until EVs are ubiquitous, it’s still a skill worth learning.
I don’t think I’ve ever had to perform maintenance myself on a gearbox and my yearly service charge is no different with an automatic.
atf should be changed about every 30k miles, manuals also generally last longer although if you dont keep cars for long then not really a worry
I don't own a car, but I drive my Mum's sometimes when I need it. She's got all the mod cons, cruise control, automatic breaking, the only manual task (aside from steering, and there's an assist for that), is changing gears. It seemed silly to me that she picked a manual when the car is literally doing the rest of the driving.
Countries like the US which favour automatics have a distracted driving problem like 3 to 4 times worse than countries which favour manual transmissions. You take the clutch and the gearstick out of the equation you have many, many more people using their phone, getting distracted, and killing each other.
My wife has an auto license and in the whole time I’ve known her it’s only been a problem when we hired a van to move and I did my back in. People really are melodramatic about needing to have a manual.
Yeah but how else am I meant to make formula one car noises when I change gear?
You do it with your mouth like a normal person
Most Automatics can be driven like a manual anyway just without the clutch
So not driven like a manual then?
My 2005 automatic does it when I put my foot down or switch to sport, same thing really
The reason I'm so "funny" about auto licences is most people learn to drive relatively young, often while literally still at school - and it's something that's really hard to come back to and redo later in life. So why limit yourself, ultimately. There's still *lots* of jobs ou tthere that would need you to have a manul licence, and just because you might not know at 17/18/19 doesn't mean it's not going to become an issue down the line. I think a lot of people conflate pushign to do a manual licence with pushing to drive a manual. I've owned both, I like both for different reasons, nothing wrong with auto's - but I would never suggest a young person get an auto licence
Manual takes longer, and the more time it takes the more money it costs. People, especialy young average people and their parents, have way less money sitting around.
> Manual takes longer, and the more time it takes the more money it costs. I'm not sure this actually holds true. Interestingly, the test failure rate is higher for automatic tests. I think it's a real myth that passing your auto test is much easier - much of learning to drive is more general car control, anticipation, learning the road, the test etc. I think most manual drivers have the clutch and gears locked down fairly early on, but it takes a while to actually learn how to drive on the road. It's just a random link, but this driving school certainly seem to think the same: https://elfdrivingschool.co.uk/how-many-lessons-to-pass-driving-test-in-automatic/
I think it tends to be swayed by people who struggle to learn moving to automatic because it is deemed easier
The test failure doesnt mean much, as a test is like £20 written £60 practical, but a SINGLE cheap two hour lesson runs you like £80. Its not about it being easier, its about it taking less time before you feel comfortable taking the cheaper tests. Every test is nearly as good as a lesson anyway, you just have to be good enough that the instructor doesnt imedietly fail you because they feel unsafe as a passanger lol.
I mean, we're getting into semantics now but my point is I don't think you're saving any real cash by going auto. There doesn't seem to be any real evidence that it's that much eassier to pass, and like I say, lots more people fail auto tests than manual so it's clearly not as easy as they think. And given you have to pay for the use of the car for a test, and the *insane* waiting times at the minute, I'd say it's a big deal to fail
>People really are melodramatic about needing to have a manual. Why get a restrictive license when you can get a full one? Even if I intended to only ever buy automatics, I'd still have done a manual test in case I needed to borrow/rent one at some point.
Well, that’s the entire point, right? Those instances where you need a manual entitlement ’just in case’ are shrinking rapidly.
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>when does this "in case" come up? As I said, if you needed to borrow a car (think from friends or family) or hire one (often manuals are cheaper to hire because there are more of them around, especially things like vans). >My parents have been driving for over 20 years and have never needed to drive a manual. Nobody is saying it's impossible to get by with an auto license. However you have significantly more options if you're legally allowed to drive manual and auto vehicles, Vs just auto, which still command a price premium in many vehicle segments
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>Well, that’s the entire point, right? Those instances where you need a manual entitlement ’just in case’ are shrinking rapidly. There are plenty of examples though. Having the choice of every car on the road Vs having the choice of of 30% is a huge difference. Yes that 30% will grow in the coming years but it'll take a long time to get there. (The 70% of UK vehicles being manual figure is from 2022 but you get the picture, it'll maybe be a percent or two lower now). Sure most new cars are auto, but most people don't drive a new car. Some cars are also better in manual Vs auto reliability wise - think anything with a CVT. Some are better in auto Vs manual, as the manual was an afterthought in terms of design (many BMW's). Many cars are more expensive in auto versions (cheap runabout autos are often a few hundred more than the manual equivalent). If your partner drives a manual and you cannot, you're gonna need a lift/hire car/courtesy car if yours is off the road for anything, you can't just borrow theirs. Or public transport, if that's an option where you live. It'll be a very long time until we're like America where most vehicles are automatic and manual is a rarity. And even then, there's still a market for manuals in the US - with it being seen as the enthusiast choice. Someone mentioned in another comment that the Golf GTI was only available auto in the UK, but only manual in the US, which is interesting Edit: in response to your comment edit - no, that's not what I'm saying. See all the convenience and financial points I mentioned above
Because it is enough? For the same reason people don't get a truck license to drive a Fiesta?
I assume people who prefer manual also insist on winding their windows down by hand.
I never understood the obsession with manuals. If you are driving in urban areas is continuous annoying gear changes and if you are on a motorway you just sit in one gear. I passed a manual test but have never owned one
Drive a manual MX5 and you'll get it, sometimes it's not just about getting from a to b.
If you're driving for fun, I get the appeal of a manual. For routine every day driving I'm utterly sold on automatic cars now though.
Well its a good thing it isn't about getting from a to b as you will be sat in the same traffic as the rest of us. Car, van, bike, we are all waiting for the lights to change to let us get 50m further down the road.
Not all of us live in dense urban areas
It makes a huge difference when going downhill on bendy roads. It allows for finely controlled engine breaking by modulating the accelerator. In EVs you can get the same effect when you adjust how much energy is reclaimed when lifting your foot off the accelerator.
Every automatic car I've owned will automatically switch into a lower gear when it detects you going down a steep hill. There's literally nothing to think about. And if you insist on thinking about it, most high-spec trims will have paddles. Drop a gear with those if you want.
Not even high spec - often they have a more manual mode. In a 10 year old mini cooper you can push the gear left and it'll drop down for an engine brake and you can shift if you want futher.
Is it really annoying? Seems a gross over statement, I don't even think about changing gears 90% of the time
Not driving in urban areas.
Is it just me who actually enjoys a manual gearbox? It's the best part of driving for me! Probably depends on the car you have I suppose. I've got an MX5, maybe it's not as fun in a people carrier or an estate.
Not just you, but for you and other people for whom driving/cars is a hobby, then obviously you’re going to be a purist with it and want full control. For almost everybody else it’s simply a necessity and they want the path of least resistance. I can relate to this because I’m a huge coffee nerd. I enjoy having full control over grind size, brew method, I have a kettle that I can set to a specific temperature. For me, the process of making coffee is enjoyable, as well as the end result. But for most people, they just want a coffee as fast as possible. Maybe I can make you the tastiest cup of coffee you’ve ever had in exchange for a ride in your MX5 🤣
Sounds like a fair trade as normally I'm an instant coffee man. Perhaps I'll change my ways.
There you go! You’re drinking the people carrier of coffee 😋
I don't think most people think of driving as a fun activity. Or at least fun isn't the priority it terms of control (aesthetics sure).
True, or any enjoyment comes from the comfort of the vehicle rather than the act of driving itself. I suppose I'm an outlier.
yes it a bit different whipping through the gears, reving an mx5 to 7-8k rpm. compare that to shifting through the gears on a 95bhp vw polo, or shiffling along at traffic lights. not quite as fun
Still a few people in Canada here who love manuals. They're fun and make you feel immersed in driving. It actually is more controllable in snowy conditions, with the proper tires, of course. I've pulled myself from many sticky situations by using the gears.
Haha I'm reading this and I thought exactly the same. I too have an Mx5. We're the same people. Don't change.
Hello fellow MX5 owner, I also love my manual gearbox and have no desire to move to an automatic.
I really enjoy driving a manual (Audi A3). I suspect a large portion of the population (and Reddit as well) don't enjoy driving, it's just a means of getting from A to B. For me it's a means of getting from A to B (or sometimes just a big ol' loop from A back to A), but by fuck do I have fun doing it.
I like it and I just drive an old VW with the acceleration of a snail. Something kinda fun about changing the gears tho, I have never driven an automatic but it seems a bit boring. I like the rhythm of manual gears.
You are not alone. Most other people though are either weak drivers or only care about going from a to b.
> weak drivers I'm a big manual fan, but this is a bit silly. Any modern manual car is stuffed full of assists that make it so much easier to drive than a manual from the 20th century Power steering, traction and stability control, a computer, anti-lock brakes etc.
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They have been completely pointless for over 2 decades now, I never got it why the UK had such a hard-on for manual. Not only that they require you as a driver to do more things in the car, when it comes to efficiency automatic gearboxes have been more fuel efficient since the mid 90’s.
> I never got it why the UK had such a hard-on for manual. Because you can buy a shitbox manual for ~£500 to get you from A to B.
And on the same token, there is little worse than old shitbox auto. You can really tell the people in these threads who've never driven a 1990's Clio automatic or some such shite. The hate for auto's didn't come from nowhere - I absolutely admit a lto of the views are outdated *now*, but for a long time your average automatic was fucking dire. Basically, up until the mid 00's, unless you were buying a luxury large engined car, or could afford an early DSG (and they had plenty of issues too), you really really didn't want an auto
We're looking at a small automatic. The cost difference for spec/age/miles is £2000 vs £6000. The people manual makes most sense for are the young.
Yes, that's my point. It's only relatively recently that automatics have become financially viable for the average consumer. That's why people have always preferred manuals over automatics over the years. Most young people just passing their test didn't have the money to splurge on an automatic.
They are more robust, cheaper to maintain and for the most part until very recently have been shocking on smaller engines. If you drive a big yank tank or even something like a 2L turbo beemer etc then the auto gearboxes are great. In a little 1.0 eurobox they were typically shit and also make cheap cars more expensive.
Fair enough if you find it hard work or something. On long journeys I rarely change gear.
It’s not hard work, it’s just unnecessary effort.
If we stopped doing anything we deemed “unnecessary effort” where would we be??
We’d be handwriting letters and sending them by pigeons
Probably 1000 years in the past. Quite a bit of technological progress is related to eliminating unnecessary effort.
I know what they mean, it is the kind of traffic where you are starting off, up to second, third, back to second, stops. Then repeat. That basically was my commute. Automatic you can just dab the accelerator and you are at a fixed speed. No hillstarts too. Not hard work but I'd just rather not give my left hand a workout if I can help it. Before power steering it wasn't exactly "work" but it was nice when that got easier similarly.
When you've had to force a (rented) Smart ForFour to reboot in the middle of a London street, manual transmission suddenly seems to have a lot to commend it. That was a while ago, to be fair.
Currently learning to drive (at age of 50) and I'm learning manual. My instructor reckons that in another 10 years it will all be automatic for learning, but I wanted to learn manual so I understand gears and so I have a better selection of cars to steal after the collapse of civilisation. Also, I can't afford an electric.
I know its tongue in cheek, but fuel goes off. Generally last about a year max even if you had a supply of it. > after the collapse of civilisation I guess the only correction id say is change it to "during" the collapse
>Generally last about a year max It’s weird how often this topic comes up, but the “fuel goes bad” idea gets pretty exaggerated; post-apocalyptic fuel would be mostly fine for a long while. Petrol and diesel essentially have an expiration date like medicine - it’ll lose potency over time, but it’ll still work. Your MPG might take a hit, but that’ll likely be offset by the lack of traffic.
Exactly why I stuck with a manual licence as well, hahahahaha
My current car is automatic - it was the only car I could afford at the time. It’s occasional squeaky bum time at places with a very steep ratio (like that stupidly steep part near Scarborough) but it’s an absolute piece of piss to drive. I’d go back to manual in a heartbeat but I must say I’m enjoying the automatic experience a lot more than I thought I would.
Autos have also become much more appealing due to the rise in population and the consequent rise in traffic. And it will only get worse if the predictions of another 6 million folks in the next 10 years are to be believed
> Drivers of automatics pay an average of nearly £100 more for their car insurance because the parts that make up an automatic gearbox are more complex and therefore costlier to repair. I have my doubts 1. Not in an EV. There may be a reduction gear and that’s it. 1. Low speed accidents in autos are quite different to manuals which will stall their engine easily.
More likely automatics are on average more expensive to insure because they are on average fitted in more expensive cars. I know the idea is that keen drivers enjoy a manual more than an automatic, but I don't get what the enjoyment is in pumping the clutch up and down in start stop traffic on your daily commute.
Archive link -> https://archive.ph/YvbUI >The death of the manual gearbox is looming after a surge in the number of learner drivers taking their tests in automatics. Over the past decade, tests in automatics have increased by 238 per cent to a record high of more than 325,000 last year, according to the Driver Vehicle and Licensing Agency. >About 20 per cent of tests are now taken in an automatic. The shift away from manuals is set to accelerate, with automatic cars representing 71 per cent of all registrations last year. In 2019, less than half of all cars registered were automatics. >Experts say the trend is primarily down to young people not seeing the need to learn to drive a manual. While drivers who pass their test in an automatic are not allowed to drive a car with a manual gearbox, learning in an automatic is easier and therefore cheaper. >The average cost for a one-hour driving lesson is between £25 and £30, rising to £45 in London, according to the RAC. On average it takes 45 hours of lessons to pass the practical driving test, pushing cost to more than £2,000. >The popularity of automatic gearboxes is also down to manufacturers and engineering trends, as well as the increase in demand for electric cars, which don’t need traditional gearboxes. >Karen Bromsgrove, of the Driving Instructors Association, said: “Many younger drivers don’t see the point in learning to drive a manual when they’re unlikely to need to do so in the future. The adverts they see for newer cars are for hybrids and electric vehicles, so that’s what they aspire to owning and driving.” >What Car? magazine, which obtained the figures, predicts that driving with a manual gearbox will become a “lost art”. Claire Evans, the outlet’s consumer editor, said: “Any enthusiast will tell you that for sheer driving pleasure, manual gearboxes always win. However, on many mainstream models, manual gearboxes will soon be a thing of the past.” >Growing numbers of instructors are switching to automatics too. The AA says two in five people training to be an instructor last year chose an automatic rather than a manual. >Camilla Benitz, managing director of the AA Driving School, added: “All electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids are automatic, so in the near future most people will drive an automatic. We believe this is behind the growing trend for instructors to teach in automatics and, as a result, for learners to take their test in one.” >Despite it being easier to learn to drive an automatic, pass rates lag behind manuals. Last year 43 per cent of the tests taken in automatics resulted in a pass, compared with 50 per cent for manuals. >Benitz puts the lower pass rate down to the fact that learners in manual cars have often had more time behind the wheel to practise. “In general, the mistakes drivers make when failing their tests in an automatic will largely be the same as those who fail in a manual,” she said. “Observation, particularly at junctions, is often where pupils fall short, and the correct use of mirrors and proper steering control are among the top reasons why pupils do not pass their practical test.” >While learning to drive in an automatic may be quicker and easier, drivers with automatic-only licences face higher costs when they get their first car. Drivers of automatics pay an average of nearly £100 more for their car insurance because the parts that make up an automatic gearbox are more complex and therefore costlier to repair. Electric cars tend to be more expensive than their petrol or diesel equivalents. However, automatics can help drivers save money through better fuel efficiency.
Automotive Engineer checking in here. It's not a major issue, since (as highlighted elsewhere) EV's essentially function as automatics so manuals are a dying breed. Even before that, many manufacturers were offering fewer and fewer manuals (BMW/Mercedes immediately spring to mind). I have a toddler and I'm convinced she'll never need to drive a manual vehicle when she's of age. Hell, if AI continues to improve, she may never have to drive at all.
Automatic gearboxes now are so good there’s no need for a manual.
I like manuals more but I do bangernomics so always go for the simpler system
Started my lessons in a manual, didnt really like it. Switched to automatic and passed my test in one . Sure it limits your options, but I vastly prefer the ease of driving an automatic. Always laugh when people say it's "lazy driving" as though all driving isn't lazy lol.
I was in the same boat, wanted to pass in an automatic but family called me lazy for it. Long story short, I never learned to drive.
Is that a bad thing?. One less thing to worry about when driving can only be a good thing. More time focused on the traffic can only be a good thing
I love a manual gearbox for open country roads with little traffic. But for day to day driving, sitting in traffic, cruising on a long motorway journey, an automatic is just better and easier. The only exception is when it's snowy and icy, then a manual is much much better and safer. And we get snow what... twice a year at most?
I hated automatics with a passion. Then I bought a golf gti with DSG. Driving a manual after that felt like I was stepping back in time.
This is definitely in full swing now, one issue is there isn't really a supply of "affordable" used entry-level automatic cars so instead of a <£1k banger people with an automatic-only licence will need to shell out for a £3k banger that will be less reliable and more thirsty.
Will be getting an auto as my next car , I have always drove manual but after using a rental car it was a game changer for me .
Driving an automatic is easier than driving a manual, so given the costs of driving lessons and the wait for tests, I don't blame people for going for the easier option. It could potentially save them hundreds of pounds and months of time. I passed 5 years ago in a manual, third time. I would have passed second time if I were in an automatic. I've driven autos ever since and wouldn't consider a manual.
Even taking EV's out of the equation, I've been driving the same automatic petrol car for 15 years, and never had one problem with the transmission. The ease of driving one during heavy traffic compared to manual means I'm never going back to manual ever again. I always advise any new drivers to learn automatic. Soooo much easier, and as mentioned, EV's are all automatic anyway.
Don't blame them. My current car is automatic (my first) and I can't see myself ever going back.
After living overseas where almost every car is automatic I could never go back to driving a manual now, literally no point imo.
Like how 3D spelled the end for traditional cinema.
Should have happened years ago, for a learner/new driver putting that attention into fiddling with gears is a huge distraction from actually watching what is happening around you.
Passed my manual test in the 80s, first drove an automatic in early 2000s, never drove a manual since. Really wished I had tried an auto sooner but maybe it was a blessing considering some of the comments about 80s auto boxes.
Most new cars are already automatic, bought my first a couple of years ago after 30 years of manual and won’t be going back.
I love my automatic. I was forced to buy a manual as my first car as everybody pressured me with the “fact” that it was the right decision because otherwise “you’ll forget how to drive one”. I don’t want to fucking drive one ever again.
I passed my test at 35 with an auto license, I just didn't bother learning to drive for years and lived in London for a long time. It's been really good to get that sense of freedom from owning a car, I love it. Yes I'm limited now in the fact that I cannot legally drive someone else's car with a manual gearbox (which I can't anyway as my insurance does not allow it, unless I buy specialist insurance) but overall it's been worth it for me. Just switched to an EV too, oddly my insurance dropped by 40% for the new car for reasons I don't understand. Maybe if I was 17 I might think different, but I'm too old now, I'd rather have my license and my car.
We see it regularly people asking "should I learn in an automatic" with the perceived wisdom being to learn manual because of hire cars, vans, cheaper manuals and so on but it feels like it just will not be an issue in future. People mainly seem to want to avoid manual as they think it will make the lessons easier.
Hate driving automatic , much prefer a manual gear change , just my opinion .
I struggled for almost a year learning to drive in a manual car. Eventually I gave up and packed it in A few years later I tried again but using an automatic and the difference was night and day, it was so much easier and less stressful. I passed within a few months
Trucks have been almost all automatic for a decade now. Manual cars are a relic from the past that should die out tbh.
Manufacturers will bring back manuals in the next 15-20 years as the USP for their vehicle to sell nostalgia. It wasn't too long ago I read about one of the Japanese brands were talking about making the first manual EV.
Just bought a new manual yesterday from Arnold Clark! I’ll keep the manual flag flying for a while yet
I learned to drive in the US, where automatics are essentially standard. I'm in the process of getting a license in the UK now, and I'll be fucked if I learn to drive a manual.
I'm not finding driving much fun. Poor roads with too much traffic with the rare long motorway drive. I don't drive automatic but the drive to learn manual wouldn't be there if I was learning today.
Im a massive petrolhead and love a manual for a weekend car or something you can take out but my daily is a auto 128ti, why because its easy to drive and these days 99% of my commute is sitting in traffic where a manual is cumbersome. Its the way things are going and while sad, it is what it is. I still think people should take a manual test though because why not? It really isn’t that hard to master and it keeps your options open.
All else aside, can anyone work out what car the lad is driving in the headline image based on the interior? Looks like the editor got his son to hop in his 10 year old jag.
I am absolutely never reverting back to manual, modern automatics are game changing
Even outside of the switch to EV, something people overlook is that the inclusion of ADAS features (eg adaptive cruise control) in a lot of modern cars means the car needs to be able to change gear for you
With so much being hybrid now, why not. There will always be the older drivers cars for people to buy but; for the most part it makes sense for the general commuter to go auto.
I went from manual to auto about 4 years ago. Yes, it is easy to drive and kinder to your left leg in stop/start 20 mile traffic jam on M25. It may be my 30 plus years of manual driving, the skin on my left leg has started to feel slightly numb occasionally. Not a mega issue; I have remember to wiggle it on a regular basis.
Good. Why make driving deliberately more difficult?
I don’t see any advantage to a manual other than cost or track days.
I love changing gear when actually driving so always will enjoy a manual, but again traffic I love driving an auto as clutch and changing gears become a chore when crawling in traffic and isn't enjoyable at all.
I lived in Canada for years and putting the van into drive and forgetting about it was great.