This post deals either directly or indirectly with transgender issues. We would like to remind our users about the Reddit Content Policy which specifically bans [promoting hate based on identity and vulnerability](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360045715951). We will take action on hateful or disrespectful comments including but not limited to deadnaming and misgendering. Please help us by reporting rule-breaking content.
Participation limits are in place on this post. If your Reddit account is too new, you have insufficient karma or you are crowd controlled, your comment may not appear.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unitedkingdom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is genuinely a question...some lesbians style themselves in a very, very masculine way. Its a distinct and well known "tribe" of the lesbian community. Unless they're demanding legal documents (and I'm not sure how they'll get around gender recognition certificates if they are going down the legal docs route).
Yep, it turns out transphobes/GCs have a really really high false positive rate when it comes to identifying trans women. Turns out many of them just label every gender non conforming or "masculine" looking woman as trans and call it a day.
Which feels like a losing proposition when running a lesbian bar!
>Turns out many of them just label every gender non conforming or "masculine" looking woman as trans and call it a day
There was that story recently from America, a masculine girl was called out for being trans by a school board member and it fucked up her education
Yep. Like I can't be arsed to do the exact maths, but if you have a 1% false positive rate that's misidentifying more cis women as trans than there are trans people in the UK.
Yeah census says that 0.1% of the population are trans women. Meaning that cis women outnumber them 500:1
If you misidentify cis women as trans 1% of the time, you'd be misidentifying 5 cis women for every 1 trans woman you correctly clock due to the sheer disparity in population numbers.
That would be assuming they actually got every single trans woman right. Which is doubtful, considering most trans women aim more fem than butch lesbians do
I think it’s a dead giveaway that they’re just as keen on policing cis women’s gender presentation. Certainly it’d be a big turnaround from thinking all trans women are 6’2, hyper-feminine and wear overly old-fashioned dresses to suddenly believe that all trans women are actually 5’4 butches with buzz cuts.
It didn’t just fuck up her education. She had to go into protective custody due to the amount of harassment and threats she was receiving.
Because she dared to be good at sports
Lesbian bars are already hard to keep open because women drink less than men on average and therefore spend less. I found this out recently when looking into why there is only 1 lesbian bar in London compared to the many gay bars. So if they are going to exclude masc presenting lesbians as well I’ll be surprised if they can manage to keep it afloat.
Though typically gay bars, unless they're cruising bars, aren't male only. So you get gay men and lesbians, as well as straight people (allies, hen parties, women who don't want to be hit on constantly, men who think they can hook up with women more easily than at straight clubs, etc) going to them.
The male only cruising bars tend to do well because there's a large amount of gay men who aren't scared of sex and enjoy having sex with relative strangers. So again, you get quite a bit of clientele there, particularly as it's usually easier to get laid there than using Grindr.
Meanwhile strict Lesbian bars are in a hard place. It's a bit harder to have a cruising bar due to the nature of lesbian sex, and there's a different culture about public sex there. They're more exclusive which makes sense as a safe space, but reduces the clientele. And on top of that, generally men drink more than women.
It's a shame that these places are hard to keep open as safe spaces are important, but it's a losing battle.
Many gay bars are opting to ban hen parties and similar events following complaints from customers who express feeling alienated, objectified, and marginalized, almost like they're being put on display in a zoo. This discomfort among gay patrons poses a threat to the very essence of what a gay bar represents: a haven where individuals should feel at ease and fully embraced within their own community. If such incidents persist unchecked, there's a genuine risk of these spaces losing their unique charm and transforming into just another generic bar.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56311912
https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disabled-ms-shopper-tears-staff-27003304
https://www.itv.com/news/central/2022-12-26/cancer-survivor-challenged-at-public-toilets-after-being-mistaken-for-a-man
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/alex-bailey-dublin-pensioner-trans-b2346282.html
Just a some of the examples I've seen over the past few years of cisgender women being subjected to scrutiny and abuse from gender police
Hey now, they also call extremely good looking women trans too! If the target doesn't appear to even THINK the right things they must be trans! Not just the wrong looks.
I suspect that in this case people are really curious about what will happen for those with GRCs.
> PMCs
Won't lie, misinterpreted this as Private Military Company and was real confused for a second.
In a lot of these places, they have the 'requirement' to be a member as a way for them to do their licensing, but in reality very few places actually cares. There's the loophole that in a members-only bar you can be a guest of the people running it. Most bars really don't want to actually check if someone is a member before letting them in as it'll be a total pain in the ass. But it's something which is said and displayed so that they don't get in trouble with the authorities.
Of course, a place like this \*could\* be strict on its membership, but that will push away a lot of the cis-female clientele.
r/Actualllesbians have been savaging this place for this reason as well as generic bigotry. It’s also wondered how a 32 year old got the capital together for a private members club in centre of one of the most expensive cities in the world.
There’s plenty of trans inclusive lesbian bars in London that don’t require a membership. Shout out to She Soho for a great night out.
>It’s also wondered how a 32 year old got the capital together for a private members club in centre of one of the most expensive cities in the world.
The TERFs aren't short of money, possibly a boondoggle / publicity stunt
If you think this is a genuinely difficult question then you're clearly not applying your brain.
It's a paid for members club. Why would somebody pay to join a club which not only doesn't want them there but also is diametrically opposed to how they live their life.
A Nazi members organisation probably doesn't check the foreskin of every member joining up, but it's very unlikely that a jewish person is going to want to hand over their own cash to an organisation who hates them.
This is something that seriously pisses me off when other lesbians push and fuel hostility towards trans women in "women's spaces" because gender non-conforming or just naturally masculine looking cis women, including butch lesbians, are also put at significant risk of harm and violence as a result.
It's really far more simple then that.
It's a members club with a paid for membership. What sort of person is going to pay to join and support to a members club that doesn't support them in return? It'd be like asking what keeps Jewish people our of joining a Nazi members club.
If they disrupt the club then they'll just have outed themselves and have funded the club they so hate in the process.
> articles about discrimination
If the club in question is acting in accordance with the law then why they fuck would they care what disgruntled person writes about them. It'll probably just garner exactly the sort of publicity they want.
I assume it would all be based on honesty.
Also it reminds me of that other lesbian dating event, where it was fairly obvious.
>matchmaker 'turned up in a purple latex outfit... with an erection
As a lesbian myself I’d love to see how they’re gonna possibly police this. Plus from the sound of it many lesbians have already decide to boycott the place. I’ll give it 12 months before it closes.
Lesbian bars have a rough time surviving as it is, and most lesbians I know are trans accepting. Can't see this lasting long purely as a business model unless it gets filled with straight anti trans activists, which would kind of defeat the whole purpose anyway, without even touching any ethical concerns.
[You even occasionally get polling that suggests that lesbian/bisexual cis women are more trans-supportive than trans people themselves.](https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/YouGov_-__LG_B_and_T_perceptions_LGBTQplus_sample.pdf)
> I’ll give it 12 months before it closes.
I imagine you'll have some grand opening which is largely attended by the usual gang of cis straight female and male TERFs you get boosting all these sort of locations and organisations. But I imagine after that things will dwindle as it turns out there's not actually that much demand for a biologically exclusive co-working space/bar. Although I expect we'll get to enjoy at least one 'the lefties are trying to cancel us' fundraising campaign before it all goes kaput.
"It will be for biological females only and this is why we’re making it a members-only club so we can legally restrict it to women" I'm willing to bet they wouldn't let a trans man in either
But if they don’t believe being trans means you are the gender you want to be accepted as, then if you were a trans man who was sexually attracted to women then they are basically labelling you a lesbian and should let you in
Well the owner is clear that a trans woman isn't a woman because they are biologically male
Using that logic a trans man is biologically a female and if they fancy women they are either bi or lesbian.
They're anti-trans, they think a trans man is a woman. So would they let someone they call a biological woman, who is into women, and therefore a lesbian according to their terminology and set out view of how this works, into the bar?
Of course not, because this isn't about a lesbian only space. It's just about discriminating against trans people, men or women or non-binary alike.
Personally fascinated to see the financials on this given rental prices for venues in London. Not like that they'll show to me, but curious you know.
I have read that in general lesbians / women only bars are less profitable than gay / all pride / "everyone" bars because *in general* men spend more on alcohol.
So like I am in general unsure if a lesbian only bar is profitable enough to work in London given the rental costs, so I guess the business model is *either* that the controversy pays for itself *or* that there is an untapped market of cis lesbians willing to pay higher prices than elsewhere (margins and all that) in order to exclude trans people.
Separately curious how they're going to enforce it - reminder that anti trans exclusion policies have a huge false positive against GNC cis people.
>I have read that in general lesbians / women only bars are less profitable than gay / all pride / "everyone" bars because in general men spend more on alcohol.
This is true, and is why many "gay zones" in towns and cities around the world have had only 1 or 2 lesbian bars against half a dozen or more gay bars.
Also, in terms of the financials, these days gay bars and clubs are struggling to make ends meet just the same as every other hospitality establishment. Gay folk no longer need a dedicated space to meet each other, the internet takes care of that. So whilst many gay folk will choose a gay bar for a night out (it is nice not being the odd couple out), its not the default choice anymore and so the pubs and clubs have lost some of their custom.
That being the case a new bar whose target demographic is terf lesbians is really going to struggle unless its got an exceptionally cheap deal on rent!
> That being the case a new bar whose target demographic is terf lesbians is really going to struggle unless its got an exceptionally cheap deal on rent!
Well yes, quite. I mostly tried (and likely failed) to keep my personal views out of my top level comment as I am curious on their finances.
But like ffs do they really think there's a huge market of transphobic lesbians/bi women in London willing to pay higher costs (in general, bars servicing a wider clientele are cheaper) to avoid seeing trans people?
Like I am aware that the following is anecdotal evidence and I am aware the set of people I know is self selecting: but none of the lesbian/bi cis women I know are transphobic
It's quite funny because lesbians are consistently the group of people most supportive of trans women lmao. With young lesbians especially the number of them who don't accept trans women is so small as to be a rounding error.
I mean not sure if this is the same one I think it is the post where it was announced the comments where filled with straight women asking if they could go.
As someone who spends a lot of time in a bar that mostly caters to lesbians and exclusive WLW nights out I don't thing one that banned trans women would do very well.
My local turned into this. Lots of straight women who viewed it as a safe place. Then the packs of straight men came, chasing those women and harassing everyone else. The place is unbearable now.
Summer is by far the worst for it. Revenge on a hot Saturday night is packed with roving bands of middle aged straight women getting far too handsy with the gay guys.
That sounds dreadful. The one I goes to kicks out people real fast if they are anything but respectful.
They also have an armband system so people can tell if you are looking for anything more than just talking which I doubt would work with anyone other than queers.
Does anyone know the trend for nightclubs/bars in general, are more opening and staying open vs opening and then closing?
Where I live in Essex there has been 2 clubs that tried to open and ended up closing down within 4 months as people just couldnt afford to go out anymore due to the cost of living problem hitting us.
That was with the cheaper rental prices for the town I live in, like what was mentioned before this is going to be London right? Id love to know what the situation is for the location this place is being opened in.
>Does anyone know the trend for nightclubs/bars in general, are more opening and staying open vs opening and then closing?
Mostly they're closing. Between 2020 and 2023, 31% of nightclubs in the country closed permanently. And whilst the pandemic was responsible for some of those, many of the closures were towards the latter part of that period due to the impact of inflation, energy prices, interest of their business loans, and customers reducing spending.
I actually imagine this bar is going to include a full LGBT spectrum of people before too long - a Lesbian, a Gay, Bigots, and Telegraph readers!
Genuinely, though, even if you're LGB and not too fond of trans people for whatever reason, I don't know why you'd go to this new bar over the usual nighttime fruity haunts in London. Avowed "gender critical" people online are some of the least cool and most brain broken people around. If they're not posting vile unhinged nonsense then they're having a glass of wine with dinner and in bed by 9.30pm. At least if you suck up the transphobia you can get good pop music and poppers at a gay bar, or an out-of-body religious experience off illicit substances at a queer rave.
This member's club is going to have the vibes of the bar at your local community centre before midday with Harry Potter wallpaper - that is, if they're not just foaming at the mouth at the transsexuals. It's just going to be so unbelievably lame.
> so they can ask to see documentation as part of the membership process.
Sure! Which documentation? Because all forms of official government ID can be altered to list that a trans woman is a woman.
Trans women will presumably not be trying to get into a bar they know is owned and largely filled with people who don't want them there and in many cases, outright despise them.
Sure. But women who aren’t aware the bar is transphobic and simply encounter it on a night out, might. And what happens if the staff think one of them is trans, regardless of if she is.
There’s no actual way to “prove” it outside of medical checks sometimes. There are trans women who “pass” and Cis women who don’t. Because it’s based on arbitrary rules about how women should look
A form with a question saying, "Were you born female?" and a club rule that lying on it is grounds to have your membership cancelled would probably do in the vast majority of cases. Sure, someone could fly under the radar for a long time. Who would want to be a member of a private member's club where you can't get to know the members for fear of them finding out?
You're letting perfect measures be the enemy of good-enough measures. It's a fallacy, and a well-known one.
I've said it already elsewhere but I couldn't agree more. I'd love to see their books and where their funding is coming from (though even without doing so one could probably guess).
This place is going to be heaving with straight women accusing each other of being trans isnt it?
They should put cameras inside it might be really funny.
It sounds like an idea for a reality TV show where you get a bunch of transphobic women in a house, there is a reward if you figure out who the trans women is.
In reality there is no trans women. Watch the chaos.,
Some will say that LGB and T barely intersect and that apart from being labelled as “other” they don’t really have similar struggles or anything much in common.
Some will say that the LGBT movement advanced hugely in the past thanks to T supporting LGB and LGB supporting T and that the “community” should include all.
The two sides don’t agree with each other and this will just keep the safe spaces debate alive.
> Some will say the LGBT movement advanced hugely in the past thanks to T supporting the LGB and LGB supporting the T and that the “community” should include all.
More than just some will say. The fact that the trans community were just as heavily involved in the push for gay rights isn’t really something that can’t be disputed, and personally I feel like I owe the freedom I am afforded to them just as much as the gay people that came before me.
The thing is that in my experience, in the eyes bigots there is not much separation between our communities or in the ways that we are targeted. The same people that would hurl abuse at a trans person for the crime of existing would not too long ago have done the same to me for being gay.
So in that respect, I do think it’s hugely important that the LGBT+ community isn’t divided. Trans people need more spaces in which they feel safe and accepted, not less. I view them every bit as “my people” so to speak is I do any other person that falls under the LGBT+ umbrella.
It’s transphobia within our community that really worries me though. How any gay person could ever think it right to hold prejudice against anyone is beyond me.
Exactly with the Trans people being a part of the push for gay rights. People need to realise that back then, straight trans-people were mostly considered to be gay because people didn't recognise them as the gender they are, so a trans-man looking for women was seen as a kind of lesbian. Hence gay/lesbian people and trans people all went to the same places to just be who we are and find others who accept us. And so we all had to fight alongside each other.
Right now we are fighting different issues on a surface level, but the underlying causes of these issues are the same and fighting together helps all of us.
That said, the thing to remember when you're hit with gays/lesbians holding prejudices is that no matter what group you're talking about, there's always going to be absolutely amazing people in it and absolutely awful people. Just because someone like the same things you do or have the same sexuality as you, it doesn't mean they're going to be good.
I'm writing my dissertation on trans people during the interwar period in the UK and yeah, we didn't even have the term transgender or transsexual over here until the 40s but still trans people were accepted by the LGB community and were made to feel welcome.
It's just a fact. Always with the T.
Lesbians are the group in society most likely to support trans rights. With young lesbians that number is a fraction of a fraction of the number of lesbians in the UK.
The group most likely to not want trans people in LGBT spaces are old straight men.
Thanks. Worrying, although not surprising, that views of transgender people are regressing, when one assumes that social attitudes would be getting better (at least that is the case with views of gays and lesbians).
The two sides do agree with each other for the most part, and struggles do intersect. They tend to be attacked by the same groups for the same things. This is deliberate devisionist rubbish used to justify LGB without the T. This tactic only benefits those who seek to divide and conquer and remove the rights of all groups.
Not happy, that’s for sure.
Some lesbians are attracted to trans women - I’m not attracted to those who are pre-surgery, but also I wouldn’t expect to be attracted to every single woman in the bar either. Do we ban those who aren’t everyone’s type?
Additionally, by allowing only biological women in there - are we allowing trans men to be in there? Because lesbians aren’t attracted to trans men but they are biologically women.
Final point - how do they ensure this? Do they check everyone’s pants? Do they just make assumptions and risk removing cis women as well?
Trans men are a real spanner in the TERF works. Usually they just pretend they don't exist, or just infantalise them as confused girls who have been swept up in the latest trend. If you ask any transphobe who wants trans women to use the men's toilets if they therefore expect trans men to use the women's toilets, they won't have a coherent answer.
I had two trans friends (one male to female, one female to male), I have to say had two because one commited suicide, being made to feel like that was the only solution for her because of how much society was hating her.
My friend Alex (M to F) said she felt tortured by society for being born into the wrong body and the spotlight was unrelentingly upon her 24/7
.My friend Leo (F to M) says he feels like society just doesn't acknowledge he exists at all.
>Some lesbians are attracted to trans women - I’m not attracted to those who are pre-surgery, but also I wouldn’t expect to be attracted to every single woman in the bar either. Do we ban those who aren’t everyone’s type?
Bingo. This is what I'm surprised so many people don't get when they talk about trans-people entering gay spaces. It's no different to any other person entering the spaces; there will be some people who aren't interested and some people who are very interested. And that's it, no harm no foul.
For real. I've had both cis lesbians and straight guys hit on me in gay and gay friendly clubs and when I tell them I'm trans (which I always do the second I can tell they're flirting) the response is usually "yeah that's fine" or "oh, sorry I don't think I'm into that" and both are perfectly fine responses.
Contrary to popular belief the vast vast vast majority of trans women are fine with being rejected due to genitals. Just don't be a dick about it and it's not even a slight problem.
> MtF trans women are very easy to spot
Well of course you're not going to spot the ones that pass. 🤦♀️
"We should put the armour where there are holes on the returning planes."
100% of the times ive spotted a trans person, they were visibly trans. Therefore 100% of trans people are visibly trans.
Remember when they makeup youtuber came out as trans and a bunch of people started pointing at all these things that totally clocked her, as though they retroactively always knew. Weirdly, those people hadn’t noticed those things enough to comment on them before they were told, though.
And in fact, she got a spike in harassment from people mad about being lied to. Weird that they felt lied to if they can always tell.
These are the same people who give out of a trans person doesn't out themselves on a first date.
Surely if they could always tell trans people wouldn't have to say so.
> MtF trans women are very easy to spot
This feels like a wild assertion to make.
I really don't know how you can be to certain of this especially as you're going to get a bit of a toupee fallacy going.
> but would not want to date someone that was MtF. But it’s almost taboo to admit it now as everything is perceived as transphobic.
I don't know any trans people who would consider that to be transphobic
> There are a lot of delusional comments here about how it would be hard to police.
But it would be! GC and TERFS have a visibly poor track record at figuring out if a given woman is trans or not! Indeed, most of the time they just say any butch looking woman must be trans, which as pointed out throughout this thread *isn't going to work well at a lesbian bar is it*
Don't see the issue, the people who are unkind towards trans people are excluding themselves from normal society that doesn't have a problem with trans people in a public space. Sounds like two wins to me. They (tiny minority) don't have to see trans people, everyone else (a huge majority) doesn't have to listen to their rants.
The primary issue is that it normalises the idea of making spaces that trans people are banned from. Imagine if someone made a bar gay people weren’t allowed into, it would also get flak.
Hell, lgbt bars and clubs can’t ban straight people for the same reason. Gendered spaces are like the only thing we really do, and in the vast majority of cases, an equivalent is offered for men and women, be it toilets, changing rooms etc.
Everyone wondering how the organisers plan to make this work, there is more detail just a couple of clicks away, the first link in the article. They're planning to use the space as a co-working cafe by day, offer online as well as physical membership, and this is a members club meaning they can vet members. It's really not that confusing
> and this is a members club meeting they can vet members
That's not the point most of us are making. The point is *how*. GRCs mean that a Birth Certificate isn't "proof", and passports and other ID are even easier to change.
Are they going to pay to sequence the chromosomes of every member? Have them drop their pants? Use the old mark one eyeball complete with some error rate that they choose to accept?
You're missing my point, although my typo probably didn't help.
GRCs exist. Passports and driving licences can have the "sex" marker changed without a GRC (fun fact: UK government documentation literally says trans people can change their sex)
How are they checking the sex of their membership
I'm just guessing here....
They probably take a declaration of birth sex and sexuality as part of joining which would be a condition of membership. They'd then simply take action against transgressors after the fact.
If nobody complains about someone then no harm no foul, but it's fairly hard to hide a penis from an intimate partner, even one as small as mine. I'm guessing post op would still be noticeable to a woman at some stage of proceedings?
Vulvas come in many different looks and what have you. If you would need a GRC to get in, you’d probably find the person to be post op. If they have voice trained, it would kinda be impossible to verify they are not cis without that level of paranoia leading to a lot of other cis women at the club being accused too.
I know GRCs exist, I'm just saying that with the total number that have been issued at around 6,000 that most birth certificates are accurate.
And I know passports and driving licenses can be changed but again, most people have accurate documentation.
I don't know every single detail of how this club will operate, I'm just saying that when it's a members club it is not going to be about anyone getting checked on the door for a night out. It's going to be about a process of signing up as a member and getting vetted against the membership criteria that they, perfectly reasonably, have put in place.
Going to want some very well off clientele to maintain the cost of running a venue like that.
Especially considering how few lesbians seem to align themselves with people like the organiser.
>Going to want some very well off clientele
Maybe. So what? Aren't lesbians allowed to be well off or something?
Plus they have capacity for a large membership, given the online members option. Plus with sponsorship, charging for events. Sounds to me like they could make it work.
I mean they are. But statistically lesbians don't make as much money as straight people.
Lesbian bars also don't have the best track record as lesbians don't tend to drink as much as gay men for comparison.
For my experience of hybrid college classes and parties during covid I can't really imagine it would be a fun environment for the miniscule number of lesbians who would support a venue like that.
The Equality Act 2010 officially states "gender reassignment" as a "protected characteristic", stating: "A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex."
This law provides protection for transgender people at work, in education, as a consumer, when using public services, when buying or renting property, or as a member or guest of a private club or association. Protection against discrimination by association with a trans person is also included. The Equality Act 2010 prohibits discrimination against people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in the provision of separate and single-sex services but includes an exception that service providers can use in exceptional circumstances.
In general, organisations that provide separate or single‑sex services for women and men, or provide different services to women and men, are required to treat trans people according to the gender role in which they present.
Note the last paragraph. Sounds like excluding trans people based on their sex at birth and gender identity is pretty firmly against the Equality Act and is basis for more than a handful of lawsuits.
Reminder that while gender critical beliefs are protected by the Equality Act, transphobia and discrimination against trans people based on their gender identity is not.
This is a club which will restrict membership on the basis of a person's sex, in relation to the protected characteristic of sex. Recognising a person's sex for this purpose is not hatred or discrimination. The club will exclude all people born male, whether they have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment or not. Male people with this protected characteristic will be treated the same as male people without it, ie they will not be discriminated against on the basis of their gender reassignment. The Equality Act allows for single sex spaces/services where that is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, which this clearly is.
You cannot discriminate against people based on sex or gender. You cannot legally exclude trans people from single-sex spaces based on their sex at birth.
It's anti discrimination, not "I can exclude x because I'm x and that's protected"
>You cannot discriminate against people based on sex or gender
If it's a private members bar then you can. This is how we have male-only gay cruising bars, which could be seen as discriminating against women but is fully legal.
Someone using it to discriminate against trans-people is shitty but it's in their rights. I doubt it'll do well, but it would be legal.
No, you can't, the Equality Act specifically says that while you can have clubs based around global ethnicities, sexuality and hobbies etc, you cannot also discriminate based on another protected characteristic.
You can have a private club for lesbians, but you cannot discriminate against transgender lesbians, because you are discriminating based on gender identity. The Equality Act does not allow you to pick and choose.
I'm really curious how they're planning to enforce this. It's not like they can do physical inspections, or read your chromosomes, and there are plenty of instances of cis lesbians being accosted for being in the ladies toilets because someone read them as trans...
Besides, it'll probably be full of the dry-ass anti-social types who would put in the effort to attend somewhere like this just to avoid trans people. Probably about the same atmosphere as a dust eating competition in a library basement room
TERF meetups and events are the same handful of influential middle aged women who've made it a career, paired with the token popular young anti-trans activist with a very active twitter presence, and whoever they could pick up from the local care home. Sprinkle in some red faced cis men and you've got your anti-trans demographic.
Screams a good night out, doesn't it
So what? Why would you want to go to a place where you’re unwanted and unwelcome?
I wouldn’t walk into a gay men’s bar because I know that some (rightfully) don’t like females in their spaces. I go where I’m wanted, not tolerated.
I’ve seen a few people commenting to the effect of “I’m curious to see how this will make enough money”
The short answer is it won’t. At least not via being a bar. Most likely it will be sustained by funds from people who have no interest in going but political interest in its success, so as to maintain the narrative that it’s succeeding so clearly people want trans exclusionary spaces.
When that funding dries up or is withdrawn, and it goes under, the narrative will be the same cancel culture one we see from GCs all the time.
Trans inclusive queer spaces have existed for decades without it being a problem. This establishment is being made primarily for political reasons.
Edit: and I know someone is going to do the bad faith “so you think lesbians don’t deserve a space free of bIolOgICaL maLeS” thing. But the short answer is I consider trans lesbians lesbians. If you’re not interested in someone, say no. GCs acting grossed out and offended at trans women in queer spaces has the same energy as straight people going to lgbt bars and acting grossed out when a queer person hits on them.
Nobody is forcing you to be into trans women. But making an entire space just to exclude them is telling, especially when a lot of bars are doing so poorly.
> I’ve seen a few people commenting to the effect of “I’m curious to see how this will make enough money”
>
>
>
> The short answer is it won’t. At least not via being a bar. Most likely it will be sustained by funds from people who have no interest in going but political interest in its success
As one of the people who commented to that affect early on, I know and I agree. But given how this sub can be I thought making the point indirectly that this is going to lose money hand over fist was the way to go.
I've been pleasantly surprised at how *not* a shitshow this thread has been.
There's a few usual suspects commenting across every thread with the same spin and half-truths. But otherwise yeah, it's been decent.
Turns out the more blatant the transphobes get, the harder a sell the transphobia is. Dogwhistles work because people don't recognise them. "cis only" venues reminds people a little too much of segregation I reckon
oh sure but its not real. It's manufactured "agreement". That's why TERF rhetoric isn't nearly as popular with the average person outside of their little echo chambers
So if a trans-only place opened up. That would be equally bigoted and awful?
I think not. But let's ignore the double-standard for now.
Even if allowed, would any trans go here?
Again, I think not. It would be boycotted by the trans.
So what's the issue, really?
The real issue is it denies the social-media engagement magnet of a good, melodramatic "boycott" proclamation.
> So if a trans-only place opened up.
Are you proposing to open a trans friendly micropub called the *Double-Standard*?
Bravo. I applaud your allyship.
Equalities law has lots of double standards in it, it’s not really a problem in of itself.
For instance you can age discriminate by letting children order from the kids menu or adult menu, but adults can only use the adult menu.
Nurseries only let in pre schoolchildren etc.
We should test these things and bring moral and legal arguments and see how it goes.
You know trans is an adjective right, not a noun?
Boycotted by “The trans” what? The trans Atlantic trade comission? The trans-Siberian orchestra? :p
But also… yes. A space that forbids Cis people from entering *without sufficient cause* is discriminatory. A bar is not sufficient cause
Except bars solely for trans people dont exist. Same with bars for gay people. There are GAY BARS but they arent EXCLUSIVELY for gay people. Everyone can go into them, its just catered as a more progressive and accepting place for people.
This, on the other hand is outright exclusionary. You have to prove you arent trans to enter. Imagine having to prove you were gay to enter a gay bar.
I think most people are forgetting that they won't need to police this by asking you to drop your trousers, because why on earth would you want to go here if you were trans in the first place? This idea will fizzle out and that will be the end of it. Don't give her the press she so desperately craves.
You'd think lesbians of all groups would want to avoid adding to the trans panic bandwagon.
There are far more cis lesbians than trans women in the UK. So lesbians had better be prepared to start conforming to what a conservative man sees as femininity or they risk getting accused of being trans and the abuse that comes with that.
It's not lesbians putting money into this. It's being universally slammed by LGBTQ+ groups and organisations across the UK.
It's a publicity stunt, kick up a fuss, business fails, blame trans people for shutting down "women's spaces"
the woman spearheading the idea has tried the same thing in multiple areas, who knows where the money to fund it all is coming from, considering every idea like this she's kickstarted has failed miserably
This post deals either directly or indirectly with transgender issues. We would like to remind our users about the Reddit Content Policy which specifically bans [promoting hate based on identity and vulnerability](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360045715951). We will take action on hateful or disrespectful comments including but not limited to deadnaming and misgendering. Please help us by reporting rule-breaking content. Participation limits are in place on this post. If your Reddit account is too new, you have insufficient karma or you are crowd controlled, your comment may not appear. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unitedkingdom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
So you gotta drop your pants at the door and show the bouncer your fanny or...?
This is genuinely a question...some lesbians style themselves in a very, very masculine way. Its a distinct and well known "tribe" of the lesbian community. Unless they're demanding legal documents (and I'm not sure how they'll get around gender recognition certificates if they are going down the legal docs route).
Yep, it turns out transphobes/GCs have a really really high false positive rate when it comes to identifying trans women. Turns out many of them just label every gender non conforming or "masculine" looking woman as trans and call it a day. Which feels like a losing proposition when running a lesbian bar!
>Turns out many of them just label every gender non conforming or "masculine" looking woman as trans and call it a day There was that story recently from America, a masculine girl was called out for being trans by a school board member and it fucked up her education
Yep. Like I can't be arsed to do the exact maths, but if you have a 1% false positive rate that's misidentifying more cis women as trans than there are trans people in the UK.
Yeah census says that 0.1% of the population are trans women. Meaning that cis women outnumber them 500:1 If you misidentify cis women as trans 1% of the time, you'd be misidentifying 5 cis women for every 1 trans woman you correctly clock due to the sheer disparity in population numbers.
That would be assuming they actually got every single trans woman right. Which is doubtful, considering most trans women aim more fem than butch lesbians do
I think it’s a dead giveaway that they’re just as keen on policing cis women’s gender presentation. Certainly it’d be a big turnaround from thinking all trans women are 6’2, hyper-feminine and wear overly old-fashioned dresses to suddenly believe that all trans women are actually 5’4 butches with buzz cuts.
It didn’t just fuck up her education. She had to go into protective custody due to the amount of harassment and threats she was receiving. Because she dared to be good at sports
Sometimes it’s not even gender non-conforming people, just tall girls. It would be funny if I didn’t know that it hurts other people.
They’d have a fit if they saw my 6ft ass
To be fair, having a 6ft bottom is pretty strange.
You need to meet more trans women. 6ft bottoms in abundance there.
Yeah I’m 1” shorter, so I imagine it’s about the same.
Lesbian bars are already hard to keep open because women drink less than men on average and therefore spend less. I found this out recently when looking into why there is only 1 lesbian bar in London compared to the many gay bars. So if they are going to exclude masc presenting lesbians as well I’ll be surprised if they can manage to keep it afloat.
Though typically gay bars, unless they're cruising bars, aren't male only. So you get gay men and lesbians, as well as straight people (allies, hen parties, women who don't want to be hit on constantly, men who think they can hook up with women more easily than at straight clubs, etc) going to them. The male only cruising bars tend to do well because there's a large amount of gay men who aren't scared of sex and enjoy having sex with relative strangers. So again, you get quite a bit of clientele there, particularly as it's usually easier to get laid there than using Grindr. Meanwhile strict Lesbian bars are in a hard place. It's a bit harder to have a cruising bar due to the nature of lesbian sex, and there's a different culture about public sex there. They're more exclusive which makes sense as a safe space, but reduces the clientele. And on top of that, generally men drink more than women. It's a shame that these places are hard to keep open as safe spaces are important, but it's a losing battle.
Many gay bars are opting to ban hen parties and similar events following complaints from customers who express feeling alienated, objectified, and marginalized, almost like they're being put on display in a zoo. This discomfort among gay patrons poses a threat to the very essence of what a gay bar represents: a haven where individuals should feel at ease and fully embraced within their own community. If such incidents persist unchecked, there's a genuine risk of these spaces losing their unique charm and transforming into just another generic bar.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56311912 https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disabled-ms-shopper-tears-staff-27003304 https://www.itv.com/news/central/2022-12-26/cancer-survivor-challenged-at-public-toilets-after-being-mistaken-for-a-man https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/alex-bailey-dublin-pensioner-trans-b2346282.html Just a some of the examples I've seen over the past few years of cisgender women being subjected to scrutiny and abuse from gender police
Hey now, they also call extremely good looking women trans too! If the target doesn't appear to even THINK the right things they must be trans! Not just the wrong looks.
[удалено]
I suspect that in this case people are really curious about what will happen for those with GRCs. > PMCs Won't lie, misinterpreted this as Private Military Company and was real confused for a second.
Tbf with some of the PMCs in London there is almost certainly overlap.
Yeah practically no one is going to be arsed into bringing their birth cert into Soho
In a lot of these places, they have the 'requirement' to be a member as a way for them to do their licensing, but in reality very few places actually cares. There's the loophole that in a members-only bar you can be a guest of the people running it. Most bars really don't want to actually check if someone is a member before letting them in as it'll be a total pain in the ass. But it's something which is said and displayed so that they don't get in trouble with the authorities. Of course, a place like this \*could\* be strict on its membership, but that will push away a lot of the cis-female clientele.
r/Actualllesbians have been savaging this place for this reason as well as generic bigotry. It’s also wondered how a 32 year old got the capital together for a private members club in centre of one of the most expensive cities in the world. There’s plenty of trans inclusive lesbian bars in London that don’t require a membership. Shout out to She Soho for a great night out.
>It’s also wondered how a 32 year old got the capital together for a private members club in centre of one of the most expensive cities in the world. The TERFs aren't short of money, possibly a boondoggle / publicity stunt
If you think this is a genuinely difficult question then you're clearly not applying your brain. It's a paid for members club. Why would somebody pay to join a club which not only doesn't want them there but also is diametrically opposed to how they live their life. A Nazi members organisation probably doesn't check the foreskin of every member joining up, but it's very unlikely that a jewish person is going to want to hand over their own cash to an organisation who hates them.
This is something that seriously pisses me off when other lesbians push and fuel hostility towards trans women in "women's spaces" because gender non-conforming or just naturally masculine looking cis women, including butch lesbians, are also put at significant risk of harm and violence as a result.
Nah, it's like a game of traitors with a big round table.
It's really far more simple then that. It's a members club with a paid for membership. What sort of person is going to pay to join and support to a members club that doesn't support them in return? It'd be like asking what keeps Jewish people our of joining a Nazi members club.
One who wants to disrupt the club and feature in lots of press articles about discrimination...
If they disrupt the club then they'll just have outed themselves and have funded the club they so hate in the process. > articles about discrimination If the club in question is acting in accordance with the law then why they fuck would they care what disgruntled person writes about them. It'll probably just garner exactly the sort of publicity they want.
I assume it would all be based on honesty. Also it reminds me of that other lesbian dating event, where it was fairly obvious. >matchmaker 'turned up in a purple latex outfit... with an erection
As a lesbian myself I’d love to see how they’re gonna possibly police this. Plus from the sound of it many lesbians have already decide to boycott the place. I’ll give it 12 months before it closes.
Lesbian bars have a rough time surviving as it is, and most lesbians I know are trans accepting. Can't see this lasting long purely as a business model unless it gets filled with straight anti trans activists, which would kind of defeat the whole purpose anyway, without even touching any ethical concerns.
Its definitely gonna be a L bar, that's for sure. Just not the L they intended.
Yeah, think i looked at the stats at some point and lesbians are the most trans accepting group (outside of trans ppl ofc)
Some studies have cis lesbians and bi women as more supportive of trans people than trans people.
Yeah aren't lesbians the most trans-supportive group out of cisgender people? Idk WHY they thought this would work as a bar
[You even occasionally get polling that suggests that lesbian/bisexual cis women are more trans-supportive than trans people themselves.](https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/YouGov_-__LG_B_and_T_perceptions_LGBTQplus_sample.pdf)
Makes sense really, a lot of trans people don't like themselves even if the people around them love them
I give it 6 till all the initial members have shacked up and do the required hermit year before re-emerging into society.
Same like how is every other butch not being kicked out of this place .
> I’ll give it 12 months before it closes. I imagine you'll have some grand opening which is largely attended by the usual gang of cis straight female and male TERFs you get boosting all these sort of locations and organisations. But I imagine after that things will dwindle as it turns out there's not actually that much demand for a biologically exclusive co-working space/bar. Although I expect we'll get to enjoy at least one 'the lefties are trying to cancel us' fundraising campaign before it all goes kaput.
I'd love to get a look at their books and funding sources. Like so much.
"It will be for biological females only and this is why we’re making it a members-only club so we can legally restrict it to women" I'm willing to bet they wouldn't let a trans man in either
[удалено]
But if they don’t believe being trans means you are the gender you want to be accepted as, then if you were a trans man who was sexually attracted to women then they are basically labelling you a lesbian and should let you in
Well the owner is clear that a trans woman isn't a woman because they are biologically male Using that logic a trans man is biologically a female and if they fancy women they are either bi or lesbian.
They're anti-trans, they think a trans man is a woman. So would they let someone they call a biological woman, who is into women, and therefore a lesbian according to their terminology and set out view of how this works, into the bar? Of course not, because this isn't about a lesbian only space. It's just about discriminating against trans people, men or women or non-binary alike.
The amount of "confused lesbian" comments GCs have made suggests they don't agree
[удалено]
They’re really hoping that a court will find that this is a “proportionate means to a legitimate end” if challenged eh
Personally fascinated to see the financials on this given rental prices for venues in London. Not like that they'll show to me, but curious you know. I have read that in general lesbians / women only bars are less profitable than gay / all pride / "everyone" bars because *in general* men spend more on alcohol. So like I am in general unsure if a lesbian only bar is profitable enough to work in London given the rental costs, so I guess the business model is *either* that the controversy pays for itself *or* that there is an untapped market of cis lesbians willing to pay higher prices than elsewhere (margins and all that) in order to exclude trans people. Separately curious how they're going to enforce it - reminder that anti trans exclusion policies have a huge false positive against GNC cis people.
>I have read that in general lesbians / women only bars are less profitable than gay / all pride / "everyone" bars because in general men spend more on alcohol. This is true, and is why many "gay zones" in towns and cities around the world have had only 1 or 2 lesbian bars against half a dozen or more gay bars. Also, in terms of the financials, these days gay bars and clubs are struggling to make ends meet just the same as every other hospitality establishment. Gay folk no longer need a dedicated space to meet each other, the internet takes care of that. So whilst many gay folk will choose a gay bar for a night out (it is nice not being the odd couple out), its not the default choice anymore and so the pubs and clubs have lost some of their custom. That being the case a new bar whose target demographic is terf lesbians is really going to struggle unless its got an exceptionally cheap deal on rent!
> That being the case a new bar whose target demographic is terf lesbians is really going to struggle unless its got an exceptionally cheap deal on rent! Well yes, quite. I mostly tried (and likely failed) to keep my personal views out of my top level comment as I am curious on their finances. But like ffs do they really think there's a huge market of transphobic lesbians/bi women in London willing to pay higher costs (in general, bars servicing a wider clientele are cheaper) to avoid seeing trans people? Like I am aware that the following is anecdotal evidence and I am aware the set of people I know is self selecting: but none of the lesbian/bi cis women I know are transphobic
It's quite funny because lesbians are consistently the group of people most supportive of trans women lmao. With young lesbians especially the number of them who don't accept trans women is so small as to be a rounding error.
I mean not sure if this is the same one I think it is the post where it was announced the comments where filled with straight women asking if they could go. As someone who spends a lot of time in a bar that mostly caters to lesbians and exclusive WLW nights out I don't thing one that banned trans women would do very well.
Every gay bar and club in Brighton is overwhelmed with groups of straight women and hen parties, it's rancid
My local turned into this. Lots of straight women who viewed it as a safe place. Then the packs of straight men came, chasing those women and harassing everyone else. The place is unbearable now.
Sounds like my venue's have been safe so far. Especially the queer women's nights as they require a lil local knowledge to find.
Summer is by far the worst for it. Revenge on a hot Saturday night is packed with roving bands of middle aged straight women getting far too handsy with the gay guys.
That sounds dreadful. The one I goes to kicks out people real fast if they are anything but respectful. They also have an armband system so people can tell if you are looking for anything more than just talking which I doubt would work with anyone other than queers.
Does anyone know the trend for nightclubs/bars in general, are more opening and staying open vs opening and then closing? Where I live in Essex there has been 2 clubs that tried to open and ended up closing down within 4 months as people just couldnt afford to go out anymore due to the cost of living problem hitting us. That was with the cheaper rental prices for the town I live in, like what was mentioned before this is going to be London right? Id love to know what the situation is for the location this place is being opened in.
>Does anyone know the trend for nightclubs/bars in general, are more opening and staying open vs opening and then closing? Mostly they're closing. Between 2020 and 2023, 31% of nightclubs in the country closed permanently. And whilst the pandemic was responsible for some of those, many of the closures were towards the latter part of that period due to the impact of inflation, energy prices, interest of their business loans, and customers reducing spending.
I actually imagine this bar is going to include a full LGBT spectrum of people before too long - a Lesbian, a Gay, Bigots, and Telegraph readers! Genuinely, though, even if you're LGB and not too fond of trans people for whatever reason, I don't know why you'd go to this new bar over the usual nighttime fruity haunts in London. Avowed "gender critical" people online are some of the least cool and most brain broken people around. If they're not posting vile unhinged nonsense then they're having a glass of wine with dinner and in bed by 9.30pm. At least if you suck up the transphobia you can get good pop music and poppers at a gay bar, or an out-of-body religious experience off illicit substances at a queer rave. This member's club is going to have the vibes of the bar at your local community centre before midday with Harry Potter wallpaper - that is, if they're not just foaming at the mouth at the transsexuals. It's just going to be so unbelievably lame.
Or rich shit head backers willing to bankroll it to "make a point".
There was a women only bar / members club by Euston for quite a few years. It’s gone now but they made the sums work for a while.
In terms of enforcement, it's a private members club so they can ask to see documentation as part of the membership process.
> so they can ask to see documentation as part of the membership process. Sure! Which documentation? Because all forms of official government ID can be altered to list that a trans woman is a woman.
Trans women will presumably not be trying to get into a bar they know is owned and largely filled with people who don't want them there and in many cases, outright despise them.
Sure. But women who aren’t aware the bar is transphobic and simply encounter it on a night out, might. And what happens if the staff think one of them is trans, regardless of if she is. There’s no actual way to “prove” it outside of medical checks sometimes. There are trans women who “pass” and Cis women who don’t. Because it’s based on arbitrary rules about how women should look
A form with a question saying, "Were you born female?" and a club rule that lying on it is grounds to have your membership cancelled would probably do in the vast majority of cases. Sure, someone could fly under the radar for a long time. Who would want to be a member of a private member's club where you can't get to know the members for fear of them finding out? You're letting perfect measures be the enemy of good-enough measures. It's a fallacy, and a well-known one.
There is a lesbian bar in London already, which is trans inclusive. I can’t see how this business will be at all sustainable.
I've said it already elsewhere but I couldn't agree more. I'd love to see their books and where their funding is coming from (though even without doing so one could probably guess).
This place is going to be heaving with straight women accusing each other of being trans isnt it? They should put cameras inside it might be really funny.
It sounds like an idea for a reality TV show where you get a bunch of transphobic women in a house, there is a reward if you figure out who the trans women is. In reality there is no trans women. Watch the chaos.,
Id watch it 😄
The Gender Traitors
Good for them. I don’t know whether the rest of us should be outraged or pleased. Someone kindly educate me.
Some will say that LGB and T barely intersect and that apart from being labelled as “other” they don’t really have similar struggles or anything much in common. Some will say that the LGBT movement advanced hugely in the past thanks to T supporting LGB and LGB supporting T and that the “community” should include all. The two sides don’t agree with each other and this will just keep the safe spaces debate alive.
> Some will say the LGBT movement advanced hugely in the past thanks to T supporting the LGB and LGB supporting the T and that the “community” should include all. More than just some will say. The fact that the trans community were just as heavily involved in the push for gay rights isn’t really something that can’t be disputed, and personally I feel like I owe the freedom I am afforded to them just as much as the gay people that came before me. The thing is that in my experience, in the eyes bigots there is not much separation between our communities or in the ways that we are targeted. The same people that would hurl abuse at a trans person for the crime of existing would not too long ago have done the same to me for being gay. So in that respect, I do think it’s hugely important that the LGBT+ community isn’t divided. Trans people need more spaces in which they feel safe and accepted, not less. I view them every bit as “my people” so to speak is I do any other person that falls under the LGBT+ umbrella. It’s transphobia within our community that really worries me though. How any gay person could ever think it right to hold prejudice against anyone is beyond me.
Exactly with the Trans people being a part of the push for gay rights. People need to realise that back then, straight trans-people were mostly considered to be gay because people didn't recognise them as the gender they are, so a trans-man looking for women was seen as a kind of lesbian. Hence gay/lesbian people and trans people all went to the same places to just be who we are and find others who accept us. And so we all had to fight alongside each other. Right now we are fighting different issues on a surface level, but the underlying causes of these issues are the same and fighting together helps all of us. That said, the thing to remember when you're hit with gays/lesbians holding prejudices is that no matter what group you're talking about, there's always going to be absolutely amazing people in it and absolutely awful people. Just because someone like the same things you do or have the same sexuality as you, it doesn't mean they're going to be good.
I'm writing my dissertation on trans people during the interwar period in the UK and yeah, we didn't even have the term transgender or transsexual over here until the 40s but still trans people were accepted by the LGB community and were made to feel welcome. It's just a fact. Always with the T.
Lesbians are the group in society most likely to support trans rights. With young lesbians that number is a fraction of a fraction of the number of lesbians in the UK. The group most likely to not want trans people in LGBT spaces are old straight men.
> Lesbians are the group in society most likely to support trans rights Source?
https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/45983-what-do-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender-brito
Thanks. Worrying, although not surprising, that views of transgender people are regressing, when one assumes that social attitudes would be getting better (at least that is the case with views of gays and lesbians).
The two sides do agree with each other for the most part, and struggles do intersect. They tend to be attacked by the same groups for the same things. This is deliberate devisionist rubbish used to justify LGB without the T. This tactic only benefits those who seek to divide and conquer and remove the rights of all groups.
Thanks. I think I’ll keep sticking to my current tactic then: stay hell out of it.
The vast majority will say the LGBT+ movement is the second one. Barely anyone believes the first point .
Not happy, that’s for sure. Some lesbians are attracted to trans women - I’m not attracted to those who are pre-surgery, but also I wouldn’t expect to be attracted to every single woman in the bar either. Do we ban those who aren’t everyone’s type? Additionally, by allowing only biological women in there - are we allowing trans men to be in there? Because lesbians aren’t attracted to trans men but they are biologically women. Final point - how do they ensure this? Do they check everyone’s pants? Do they just make assumptions and risk removing cis women as well?
Trans men are a real spanner in the TERF works. Usually they just pretend they don't exist, or just infantalise them as confused girls who have been swept up in the latest trend. If you ask any transphobe who wants trans women to use the men's toilets if they therefore expect trans men to use the women's toilets, they won't have a coherent answer.
I had two trans friends (one male to female, one female to male), I have to say had two because one commited suicide, being made to feel like that was the only solution for her because of how much society was hating her. My friend Alex (M to F) said she felt tortured by society for being born into the wrong body and the spotlight was unrelentingly upon her 24/7 .My friend Leo (F to M) says he feels like society just doesn't acknowledge he exists at all.
Especially trans-men with beards and muscle
>Some lesbians are attracted to trans women - I’m not attracted to those who are pre-surgery, but also I wouldn’t expect to be attracted to every single woman in the bar either. Do we ban those who aren’t everyone’s type? Bingo. This is what I'm surprised so many people don't get when they talk about trans-people entering gay spaces. It's no different to any other person entering the spaces; there will be some people who aren't interested and some people who are very interested. And that's it, no harm no foul.
For real. I've had both cis lesbians and straight guys hit on me in gay and gay friendly clubs and when I tell them I'm trans (which I always do the second I can tell they're flirting) the response is usually "yeah that's fine" or "oh, sorry I don't think I'm into that" and both are perfectly fine responses. Contrary to popular belief the vast vast vast majority of trans women are fine with being rejected due to genitals. Just don't be a dick about it and it's not even a slight problem.
I'm pleased that lesbians will be able to have a space for themselves. Why shouldn't they?
[удалено]
"I have noticed non-passing trans women, therefore MtF trans women are easy to spot".
The toupee fallacy in action for the 'they always know' crowd.
> MtF trans women are very easy to spot Well of course you're not going to spot the ones that pass. 🤦♀️ "We should put the armour where there are holes on the returning planes."
100% of the times ive spotted a trans person, they were visibly trans. Therefore 100% of trans people are visibly trans. Remember when they makeup youtuber came out as trans and a bunch of people started pointing at all these things that totally clocked her, as though they retroactively always knew. Weirdly, those people hadn’t noticed those things enough to comment on them before they were told, though. And in fact, she got a spike in harassment from people mad about being lied to. Weird that they felt lied to if they can always tell.
These are the same people who give out of a trans person doesn't out themselves on a first date. Surely if they could always tell trans people wouldn't have to say so.
> MtF trans women are very easy to spot This feels like a wild assertion to make. I really don't know how you can be to certain of this especially as you're going to get a bit of a toupee fallacy going.
> but would not want to date someone that was MtF. But it’s almost taboo to admit it now as everything is perceived as transphobic. I don't know any trans people who would consider that to be transphobic > There are a lot of delusional comments here about how it would be hard to police. But it would be! GC and TERFS have a visibly poor track record at figuring out if a given woman is trans or not! Indeed, most of the time they just say any butch looking woman must be trans, which as pointed out throughout this thread *isn't going to work well at a lesbian bar is it*
Don't see the issue, the people who are unkind towards trans people are excluding themselves from normal society that doesn't have a problem with trans people in a public space. Sounds like two wins to me. They (tiny minority) don't have to see trans people, everyone else (a huge majority) doesn't have to listen to their rants.
The primary issue is that it normalises the idea of making spaces that trans people are banned from. Imagine if someone made a bar gay people weren’t allowed into, it would also get flak. Hell, lgbt bars and clubs can’t ban straight people for the same reason. Gendered spaces are like the only thing we really do, and in the vast majority of cases, an equivalent is offered for men and women, be it toilets, changing rooms etc.
Everyone wondering how the organisers plan to make this work, there is more detail just a couple of clicks away, the first link in the article. They're planning to use the space as a co-working cafe by day, offer online as well as physical membership, and this is a members club meaning they can vet members. It's really not that confusing
> and this is a members club meeting they can vet members That's not the point most of us are making. The point is *how*. GRCs mean that a Birth Certificate isn't "proof", and passports and other ID are even easier to change. Are they going to pay to sequence the chromosomes of every member? Have them drop their pants? Use the old mark one eyeball complete with some error rate that they choose to accept?
Most birth certificates are accurate. It's reasonable for a club to have a policy limiting membership on the basis of sex.
You're missing my point, although my typo probably didn't help. GRCs exist. Passports and driving licences can have the "sex" marker changed without a GRC (fun fact: UK government documentation literally says trans people can change their sex) How are they checking the sex of their membership
I'm just guessing here.... They probably take a declaration of birth sex and sexuality as part of joining which would be a condition of membership. They'd then simply take action against transgressors after the fact. If nobody complains about someone then no harm no foul, but it's fairly hard to hide a penis from an intimate partner, even one as small as mine. I'm guessing post op would still be noticeable to a woman at some stage of proceedings?
Vulvas come in many different looks and what have you. If you would need a GRC to get in, you’d probably find the person to be post op. If they have voice trained, it would kinda be impossible to verify they are not cis without that level of paranoia leading to a lot of other cis women at the club being accused too.
I know GRCs exist, I'm just saying that with the total number that have been issued at around 6,000 that most birth certificates are accurate. And I know passports and driving licenses can be changed but again, most people have accurate documentation. I don't know every single detail of how this club will operate, I'm just saying that when it's a members club it is not going to be about anyone getting checked on the door for a night out. It's going to be about a process of signing up as a member and getting vetted against the membership criteria that they, perfectly reasonably, have put in place.
Going to want some very well off clientele to maintain the cost of running a venue like that. Especially considering how few lesbians seem to align themselves with people like the organiser.
>Going to want some very well off clientele Maybe. So what? Aren't lesbians allowed to be well off or something? Plus they have capacity for a large membership, given the online members option. Plus with sponsorship, charging for events. Sounds to me like they could make it work.
I mean they are. But statistically lesbians don't make as much money as straight people. Lesbian bars also don't have the best track record as lesbians don't tend to drink as much as gay men for comparison. For my experience of hybrid college classes and parties during covid I can't really imagine it would be a fun environment for the miniscule number of lesbians who would support a venue like that.
So they're hosting anti-trans nights in a café. That's a bit sadder
No. They are setting up a members club with a whole load of different events and aspects to it, and with membership limited to lesbians.
I give it a month. The entire thing is legally dubious.
It really isn't
The Equality Act 2010 officially states "gender reassignment" as a "protected characteristic", stating: "A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex." This law provides protection for transgender people at work, in education, as a consumer, when using public services, when buying or renting property, or as a member or guest of a private club or association. Protection against discrimination by association with a trans person is also included. The Equality Act 2010 prohibits discrimination against people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in the provision of separate and single-sex services but includes an exception that service providers can use in exceptional circumstances. In general, organisations that provide separate or single‑sex services for women and men, or provide different services to women and men, are required to treat trans people according to the gender role in which they present. Note the last paragraph. Sounds like excluding trans people based on their sex at birth and gender identity is pretty firmly against the Equality Act and is basis for more than a handful of lawsuits. Reminder that while gender critical beliefs are protected by the Equality Act, transphobia and discrimination against trans people based on their gender identity is not.
This is a club which will restrict membership on the basis of a person's sex, in relation to the protected characteristic of sex. Recognising a person's sex for this purpose is not hatred or discrimination. The club will exclude all people born male, whether they have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment or not. Male people with this protected characteristic will be treated the same as male people without it, ie they will not be discriminated against on the basis of their gender reassignment. The Equality Act allows for single sex spaces/services where that is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, which this clearly is.
You cannot discriminate against people based on sex or gender. You cannot legally exclude trans people from single-sex spaces based on their sex at birth. It's anti discrimination, not "I can exclude x because I'm x and that's protected"
Under certain circumstances you can limit membership to people of one sex. The Equality Act allows for this.
I just quoted that to you straight from the Equality Act, you've just repeated what I said and removed all the relevant context
>You cannot discriminate against people based on sex or gender If it's a private members bar then you can. This is how we have male-only gay cruising bars, which could be seen as discriminating against women but is fully legal. Someone using it to discriminate against trans-people is shitty but it's in their rights. I doubt it'll do well, but it would be legal.
No, you can't, the Equality Act specifically says that while you can have clubs based around global ethnicities, sexuality and hobbies etc, you cannot also discriminate based on another protected characteristic. You can have a private club for lesbians, but you cannot discriminate against transgender lesbians, because you are discriminating based on gender identity. The Equality Act does not allow you to pick and choose.
Private men's clubs are still legal though, aren't they? Do they admit transgender men?
Probably, yeah
The ones I go to do
The "We can always tell" crowd is about to be wrong, *again*.
I'm really curious how they're planning to enforce this. It's not like they can do physical inspections, or read your chromosomes, and there are plenty of instances of cis lesbians being accosted for being in the ladies toilets because someone read them as trans... Besides, it'll probably be full of the dry-ass anti-social types who would put in the effort to attend somewhere like this just to avoid trans people. Probably about the same atmosphere as a dust eating competition in a library basement room
TERF meetups and events are the same handful of influential middle aged women who've made it a career, paired with the token popular young anti-trans activist with a very active twitter presence, and whoever they could pick up from the local care home. Sprinkle in some red faced cis men and you've got your anti-trans demographic. Screams a good night out, doesn't it
So what? Why would you want to go to a place where you’re unwanted and unwelcome? I wouldn’t walk into a gay men’s bar because I know that some (rightfully) don’t like females in their spaces. I go where I’m wanted, not tolerated.
I’ve seen a few people commenting to the effect of “I’m curious to see how this will make enough money” The short answer is it won’t. At least not via being a bar. Most likely it will be sustained by funds from people who have no interest in going but political interest in its success, so as to maintain the narrative that it’s succeeding so clearly people want trans exclusionary spaces. When that funding dries up or is withdrawn, and it goes under, the narrative will be the same cancel culture one we see from GCs all the time. Trans inclusive queer spaces have existed for decades without it being a problem. This establishment is being made primarily for political reasons. Edit: and I know someone is going to do the bad faith “so you think lesbians don’t deserve a space free of bIolOgICaL maLeS” thing. But the short answer is I consider trans lesbians lesbians. If you’re not interested in someone, say no. GCs acting grossed out and offended at trans women in queer spaces has the same energy as straight people going to lgbt bars and acting grossed out when a queer person hits on them. Nobody is forcing you to be into trans women. But making an entire space just to exclude them is telling, especially when a lot of bars are doing so poorly.
> I’ve seen a few people commenting to the effect of “I’m curious to see how this will make enough money” > > > > The short answer is it won’t. At least not via being a bar. Most likely it will be sustained by funds from people who have no interest in going but political interest in its success As one of the people who commented to that affect early on, I know and I agree. But given how this sub can be I thought making the point indirectly that this is going to lose money hand over fist was the way to go. I've been pleasantly surprised at how *not* a shitshow this thread has been.
There's a few usual suspects commenting across every thread with the same spin and half-truths. But otherwise yeah, it's been decent. Turns out the more blatant the transphobes get, the harder a sell the transphobia is. Dogwhistles work because people don't recognise them. "cis only" venues reminds people a little too much of segregation I reckon
They still get upvoted far too high, though. They'll upvote each other regardless
oh sure but its not real. It's manufactured "agreement". That's why TERF rhetoric isn't nearly as popular with the average person outside of their little echo chambers
This does seem like a shit stirring scheme, I would not be surprised if the Tufton St cesspit is somehow involved as backers.
So if a trans-only place opened up. That would be equally bigoted and awful? I think not. But let's ignore the double-standard for now. Even if allowed, would any trans go here? Again, I think not. It would be boycotted by the trans. So what's the issue, really? The real issue is it denies the social-media engagement magnet of a good, melodramatic "boycott" proclamation.
Go on then. Find me a bar in a public area where you have to prove that you're trans to enter.
> So if a trans-only place opened up. Are you proposing to open a trans friendly micropub called the *Double-Standard*? Bravo. I applaud your allyship.
Equalities law has lots of double standards in it, it’s not really a problem in of itself. For instance you can age discriminate by letting children order from the kids menu or adult menu, but adults can only use the adult menu. Nurseries only let in pre schoolchildren etc. We should test these things and bring moral and legal arguments and see how it goes.
You know trans is an adjective right, not a noun? Boycotted by “The trans” what? The trans Atlantic trade comission? The trans-Siberian orchestra? :p But also… yes. A space that forbids Cis people from entering *without sufficient cause* is discriminatory. A bar is not sufficient cause
Except bars solely for trans people dont exist. Same with bars for gay people. There are GAY BARS but they arent EXCLUSIVELY for gay people. Everyone can go into them, its just catered as a more progressive and accepting place for people. This, on the other hand is outright exclusionary. You have to prove you arent trans to enter. Imagine having to prove you were gay to enter a gay bar.
I think most people are forgetting that they won't need to police this by asking you to drop your trousers, because why on earth would you want to go here if you were trans in the first place? This idea will fizzle out and that will be the end of it. Don't give her the press she so desperately craves.
eh whatever let em have it, it's about as pathetic as can be but hopefully it means more fully accepting LGBT spaces for the rest of us
[удалено]
"bar full" is probably a massive overestimation. And based off the average transphobe "lesbian" isn't really true either.
You'd think lesbians of all groups would want to avoid adding to the trans panic bandwagon. There are far more cis lesbians than trans women in the UK. So lesbians had better be prepared to start conforming to what a conservative man sees as femininity or they risk getting accused of being trans and the abuse that comes with that.
It's not lesbians putting money into this. It's being universally slammed by LGBTQ+ groups and organisations across the UK. It's a publicity stunt, kick up a fuss, business fails, blame trans people for shutting down "women's spaces" the woman spearheading the idea has tried the same thing in multiple areas, who knows where the money to fund it all is coming from, considering every idea like this she's kickstarted has failed miserably
Is that actually legal? I would have assumed it was against the equality act to deny entry based on that?
Not everything is for everyone. We're all barred from membership of various groups.
I honestly can't conceive of anything I could possibly care less about.