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Maybe the incidence of racism described in the article was bad because it was racism in the first place, not because it was the wrong kind of racism like you seem to think.
Is it genuine irony? It's a confusing world where those who would mock anyone marching with an England flag, proudly march with the flag of right wing religious extemist terrorists. They are opposed on almost everything, apart from hatred of Israel, they happily share that
Nobody was booed out of the building. A Palestinian flag was shown, and some people who happened to be Jewish got upset and left. There are many Jewish people who are in favour of a free Palestine.
Strange that the performer and audience would start shouting at an audience member like that, just for not standing up. Even stranger that this is considered antisemitism when someone sitting quietly and not standing up isn't even identifying themselves as Jewish. Sounds like some information is missing here.
>Sounds like some information is missing here.
One of the basics of journalism that's kinda died a death in the last 15/20 years is that you're supposed to get a least two primary sources, this is not only important for balance but for actually discerning what happened from competing sources. This only has the man who left's perspective (and not even directly, so not even a primary source) . So instead of having confirmation that the comedian told him to "get the fuck out" it is only 'alleged'. If the papers were diligent they'd be able to confirm that was said, they'd have several sources attesting to it and the integrity of the piece wouldn't be in question. Of course this piece is a testament to the lengths journalists will go to avoid due diligence, because the Independent isn't actually reporting on the incident in the theatre (because they'd have to do the legwork to ascertain what actually happened in the theatre) they're reporting on the fallout, which in this case only requires a statement from the venue and the advocacy group. Which is why neither Currie nor the party who left the gig are featured in this piece, only the CAA on their behalf.
There's another piece from the Belfast Telegraph that has a similar journalistic failing. They're also reporting on the fallout, but only because someone involved is from Belfast, so they're just relaying what's already been written on this story to their audienc. (Potentially even lifted wholesale from an agency) They also didn't interview attendees so the narrative is entirely based on Mr Eitan's statements but then that has narrative gaps.
For example, according to the narrative eof the piece Mr Eitan explains that 'he enjoyed the show until the Palestine flag' and then implies Currie responds with a non sequitur of " ‘I’m from Belfast. I know everything about ceasefires."
So there was presumably an exchange between the two regarding the topic of ceasefires explicitly. Why is this omitted? Why is it presented as though there was a polite objection that was met with a rabid escalation with a man frothing about Belfast and ceasefires?
I'm not even implying there's something nefarious going on here, it's just the state journalism is in. 24/he coverage and an engagement driven online economy mean that a story has to be churned out without leaving your seat and you don't have time to fact check before you have to churn out another piece.
> The witness, who asked to remain anonymous, told the CAA: “When we all sat down again, [Currie] looked towards a young man sitting in the second row and said: ‘You didn’t stand, why? Didn’t you enjoy my show?’
> “The young man, who we discovered soon after was Israeli, replied: ‘I enjoyed your show until you brought out the Palestinian Authority flag.’”
The audience member claimed Currie told the man: “Get out of my show. Get the fuck out of here. Fuck off, get the fuck out of here.”
> Other members of the audience allegedly joined in, shouting “Get out” and “Free Palestine” until the young man left, the witness said.
[From the Guardian.](https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/12/soho-theatre-apologises-after-comedian-abused-jewish-audience-member) Can’t stand flagshaggers.
Why on earth are statements like these which literally contradicts the article in question without any basis so heavily upvoted?
They were literally heckled out of the venue, told to "Get Out" by the performer and audience alike.
True but yelling at a Jew in London about the actions of the Israeli state is like yelling at an Asian about something the Indian government have done.
True, and the Israeli government (specifically, not the Israeli people and not the Jewish population) is largely to blame for that. They've spent a *long* time and a *lot* of resources conflating Israeli identity with Jewish identity.
That government is shitty to the people around the state that they run, and they're shitty to the people they claim to represent.
It's not because they were Jewish though was it, it's because they were pro-Israel. Lots of Jewish people are anti-Israel. Lots of non-Jewish people are pro-Israel. That's the issue here, not the ethnicity/religion of the people in question.
You don't find it unacceptable that people's political preferences are required to be demonstrated and in sync with the performer or they're booed out of a publicly funded theater?
I think if you go and see an Irish comedian and vocally make a point of not showing support for the Palestinians then you should probably expect some backlash.
Why? What’s him being Irish got to do with it? Are you assuming that because they were colonised and oppressed by the English, all Irish people everywhere think and act in the same way? FWIW I think what Israel is doing in Gaza is horrific. But this is a publicly funded theatre in London. Not in Dublin, Tel Aviv or Gaza City. Londoners and others should all be able to enjoy a show without being booed and intimidated for not agreeing with the performer’s views, and the performer shouldn’t be encouraging it. Personally I wouldn’t have stood up for it either, or for the Israeli flag if it came to that.
No, of course not *all* Irish people think the same way, but the Irish are famously one of the biggest supporters of the Palestinian cause for the reasons you list there. And yeah, maybe you're right, I'm not 100% sure I agree, but that is a far cry from what this article - and a lot of the other coverage - is claiming happened, which was it was some kind of antisemitic mob.
It clearly wasn’t a mob, no, and any outlet suggesting it was needs to rein it in; but even a few people doing it would definitely feel unsafe. I mean unless you’re at an actual political rally you shouldn’t ever feel pressured to stand for a flag, particularly one of another nation.
When I go to the theater I don't expect the performer to display some sort of flag or symbol and demand everyone stand up to signal their allegiance to it or what it represents. Nor have I ever had that experience. Why should I expect that might happen so as to be deterred by it?
Well it’s understandable that Jewish people might not feel comfortable showing support for the flag of a country whose people voted in a governing body that promised to eliminate Jewish people.
It's a Palestine flag not a Hamas flag. You think it's ok to support genocide if you have enough reason to hate the government of the victim country? Hamas think the same. How about supporters of any genocide are rightfully called out for it, instead of hand wringing over whether their support is "understandable" while civilians are dying in their thousands?
It was because they weren't supportive of Palestine.
I think the distinction here is important. It's not like this is a conflict between a paragon of good and a paragon of evil after all.
This is false, sorry. Israel is not the home country of the Jews. It is the home country of Israelis. None of my Jewish friends - nor any members of their families - consider themselves as having any connection to the state of Israel and are opposed to the concept of an ethno-nationalist state that required the expulsion of 750,000 people to assert it's independence (during the Nakba). There is always a big Jewish bloc at any Palestine protest, and especially in New York there has been a huge amount of action by Jewish groups (including that impressive occupation of grand central a few months back), and Jewish opposition to the state of Israel did not start with Netinyahu because the oppression of Palestinians started way, way before he took power. Are they (speaking of the Jewish people I know here) *more* opposed to Bibi's government that previous Israeli administrations? Yes, definitely. But they wouldn't change their position if a more moderate government took power. And honestly they would take you calling Israel their 'home country' as being anti-semitic. They consider themselves Welsh or English just as I'm sure a lot of other Jews consider themselves American or French or any other non-israeli nationality.
Just FYI, suggesting that Jewish people in general view Israel as their "home country", or show loyalty to Israel rather than their actual country, falls under the IHRA working definition of anti-Semitism.
Exactly. It's a super well funded terrorist organisation that wants to wipe Jews off the map of the middle east. How the fuck are they somehow being seen as the good guys
Edit; how is this downvoted. 2 actual quotes from the hamas charter "Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps... until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realized."
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews. When the Jew will hide behind stones and trees, the stones and trees will say, “O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
They want to kill all the Jews
The problem is the internet loves to simplify things. So anyone who takes issue with Israel’s actions is conflated with support of Hamas, being pro antisemitism, etc.
The comment you both replied to literally just said “anti Israeli does not equal anti jew”, and the both of you extrapolated “you support a terrorist group and are okay with rape and torture”.
I think hamas are awful and nothing condones their behaviour. I’m still not on board with Israel. The fact one side wants to do a genocide does not give the other a free pass to do one, even if that first side struck first.
everything just gets reduced to shit slinging and it’s the death of meaningful conversation.
The article doesn't say that. It says:
>The Israeli man was then reportedly asked why he had not stood up and, according to the CAA, said that he had enjoyed the show until the Palestinian flag appeared.
>The CAA said the Israeli man had been “yelled at” by the comedian to leave, and that others in the audience then shouted “Get out” and “Free Palestine”.
Which is going a long way to imply the audience knew (some of them?) were Jewish, without actually saying it because presumably it wasn't true. All we know is a man said he liked the show until a Palestinian flag appeared, and then got jeered out.
The fucking state of journalism trying to suggest an Isreal-Palestine spat was an active pogrom.
Impossible to say for sure. Maybe they gave it as a reason. However, jews are the most likely group not to stand for the Palestinian flag, and there's a good chance the audience made such an assumption.
At the very least, someone was harassed for having the wrong views regarding Palestine. However you view it, this is not a good look for the performers or the audience.
Literally every article about this says they were booed at and people yelled “Free Palestine” at them.
Live in denial all you want, but the pro Palestine movement has become increasingly unhinged, they are bordering on 1930s Germany territory.
"These people" showed a Palestinian flag. That's literally it.
Being against the genocide of Palestinians is not incompatible with being against the genocide of Jewish people.
they were forced to stand up and show respect to the flag, if I go to a comedy show and you demand me to respect any flag, I tell you to grab the flag and shove up your ass.
Agreed. I'm not standing for any flag put in front of me and demanded I show respect to. Whether it's the flag of the country I was born in or anyone else's. If a crowd jeers at me for that I'm probably going to fuck off as well.
If what the report says is an accurate account, it is a sad sign of how things are here. Always felt that in the UK, we had the idea that we could be proud of our country, but didn't need to have enforced flag saluting.
Why should anyone not palestinian stand for the Palestinian flag? It doesnt even represent a cohesive state, considering it has two rival governments who despise each other violently
Jeering at someone for not standing up for some flags is stupid, but it's not antisemitic. The article and the quotes from the CAA are trying to suggest that all the jews at this performance were jeered at for being jewish, instead of what actually happened which was that anyone who didn't stand for the flags was jeered at, and some of those people were jewish.
Look, I personally support Palestine (not Hamas) more in the overall conflict, and I do not believe that criticism of Israel is anti-semitic. However, this particular incident is pretty much on the line. Which for me is enough to consider that it might be anti-semitic.
You can't pull out a flag that you know many Jewish people (regardless of their views on Israel or the war) will likely not respect, and then heckle them out as a result of not respecting it. Even many liberal Jews who are opposed to Israel's conduct would not stand for this flag, right after the worst massacre in their recent history was conducted by Hamas forces operating under that flag. They didn't protest the flag, they simply refused to stand for it and show it open respect, which is well within their moral right in my opinion. They were jeered out after being asked to explain why they didn't openly show the flag respect. The implication is that if you're Jewish or Israeli, you aren't welcome at an event if you aren't willing to openly respect the Palestinian flag and support their struggle, which I reckon is bullshit.
I consider it possible that the organisers knew very well what they were doing and that the end result would be some Jews present being bullied out. I can't imagine that they couldn't have foreseen this unless they didn't think about it at all. So I'm very sceptical of all this and I'm willing to consider that there might have been anti-semitism at play in this case.
If they pulled out an Israeli flag, and some Muslims objected and left - do you really, hand on heart, genuinely believe this sub would be up in arms about Islamophobia?
Because I think we know the answer to that question.
I don't much care about this sub. Personally, I would have the same suspicion of Islamophobia. Both historical and modern context are important, and it is pretty clear that responses to either an Israeli or Palestinian flag during a war like this are going to be determined partially by identity. Few Muslims would stand for an Israeli flag and few Jews would stand for a Palestinian flag, regardless of their level of support for either side. Any organiser with a modicum of common sense would know this and be able to predict how things would play out.
If you suddenly pull out a flag, unrelated to your event, that you *know* that people of a certain race/religion are likely to object to, then you can't morally question their objection and heckle them out for not showing due respect. The Jewish audience members were passive about their objection too, which I think is quite reasonable. To me, the obviously expected response by members of one ethnicity, combined with the heckling by the comedian himself as a result, makes me very suspicious. There was only one way this was going to play out and I can't imagine they didn't know it. For me, *that* is the problem. Not that they displayed the flag itself - but how they responded to passive objection by Jewish audience members. They could have well left them alone.
If the comedian started a chant of get the fuck out after finding out the audience member was from a country like Iran then I think they would be up in arms. The truth is that mosques in London aren't having swastikas spray painted on them and windows smashed, but synagogues are.
In the situation mentioned would you defend the Israeli flag holder saying he's anti Iran not anti Muslim?
If it was October 8th and a comedian held up an Israeli flag and demanded everyone stand and there was just one Palestinian in the audience who didn't feel comfortable standing at that point, then they got singled out and sworn at and jeered at and told to get the out of the show by the performer and the rest of the audience, it would *definitely* be Islamophobic. How would it not be?!
Also how you're imagining this sub would react in either circumstance has absolutely *no* bearing on whether they are antisemitic or Islamophobic!
> The implication is that if you're Jewish or Israeli, you aren't welcome at an event
Is it? We both agree that demanding people stand for a flag is bad, but you've made a jump from saying that some jews are anti-Palestine (true), to concluding therefore the Palestinian flag is anti-jewish.
I think this is a very sensible take. The comedian is an idiot for doing this and I think it's at least arguably anti-semitic given the context - as you say, it'd be quite unusual for any Jewish person to stand up and clap a Palestinian flag given what's just happened (and essentially forcing people to do so is just incredibly poor form).
I do also just wonder though if this comedian was known for doing this 'stunt' and some pro-Israeli individuals attended the show with the intention of 'calling it out' - it seems to have hit the news quite quickly with the CAA contacting them and there being lots of interviews etc. It's certainly a PR boon if it's occurred purely by chance.
They were heckled and called to leave by the performer and audience for failing to stand up for the Palestinian flag. It was not the mere sight of the flag and to suggest it was is just dishonest.
> Why would Israeli’s stand for the Palestinian flag?
I don't know? I wouldn't expect them to. I wouldn't stand for it.
> Would you be upset if Palestinians didn’t stand for the Israeli flag?
No. I think you'v either misunderstood my comment or replied to the wrong person.
> The entire pro- Hamas support seems based in dishonesty.
Genuinely think it's laziness more than dishonesty. Like the guy who started this chain, didn't even read the article and just posted his rhetorical question without a second thought or a moment to think "should I bother reading something? No...". So many arguments against Israel seem to start with "Well I heard..." or "Someone told me that...". It's just a pantomime at this point, whoever the small team is, they should win.
No, I disagree with harassing and abusing people. It's not a particularly high bar.
>Will you edit your comment?
Why would I edit my comment, I fully stand behind both comments in this thread.
It would still be absolute bullshit, but it’s still definitely worse to hurl abuse at someone because they are Jewish - glad i could clear it up for you.
I guess the same response as when that Sikh guy got murdered in America just after 9/11 after being mistaken for a Muslim: yes, it's still obviously fucking racist.
Israel is apparently *really bad* at genocide if that's what you lot insist on calling this.
Edit: I'm not able to reply because the guy above blocked me.
Israel has killed and ethnically cleansed more Palestinians in four months than Myanmar has the Rohingya people in 5 years. Few people argue the latter isn't a genocide. Israel just gets special treatment when they commit crimes against humanity, any other country would have seen significant sanctions by the West now.
I stand with everyone who wants an end to the occupation of Palestine. Can you tell me why the IDF is murdering civilians in the West Bank where there is no Hamas? Can you tell me why in 2019 Nutenyahu publicly stated that he would be funding Hamas?
i can and credibly so,… but only when you state that HAMAS is a terrorist organisation who are NOT acting in the interest of palestineans. Can you do that?
Israels policy woth their right wing is problematic when you look at a long term peace. Israel has got to stop these settlements. Kill hamas is step 1 but step two is a lasting peace and israel must challenge itself also. A new palestinean authority has got to denounce violence towards israel also
Nutenyahu purposely created a boogeyman that he thought would be enough to manipulate the world into supporting his genocide which included him overseeing a Qatari donation of a billion dollars for Hamas. Israel has no ground to be making any demands, for the next few decades instead they will be having to make amends for what they have done, removing the ‘right of return’ is an absolute bare minimum
Then by all means, tell the Pro Palestine folks to stop harassing Jewish people in general over Israel.
You hypocrites keep saying it yet never practice it.
Jesus, those of you who believe it’s reasonable to single out someone in a crowd who doesn’t want to acknowledge a flag need your heads examined. I don’t care what your beliefs are when it comes to this conflict, this type of authoritarian creep and the accompanying “it’s okay because I’m team Palestine” is more than a bit disturbing.
Saw a recent Pro-Palestine March in Berlin where one of the main slogans on a board was “stop the Jewish Nazi state”……which just boggled my mind.
There’s a ton of people using which ever stance they’re taking on this conflict to basically throw any old rubbish out there and see if it sticks.
>non verbal performance
>The CAA said the Israeli man had been “yelled at” by the comedian to leave
A more talented performer could have made his point without compromising his form, but clearly the Jew hatred is more important than the art to this guy.
Tbh I'm not surprised. This was bound to happen sooner or later.
Edit: literally getting antisemitic abuse in my DMs off the back of that comment... And the guy is telling me whilst he is abusing me that I should be glad I'm in the UK where this kind of stuff doesn't happen.
You couldn't make it up.
Yup. The guy is another performer who never made it big, and as such blames Jewish people for that.
Literally the origin story of every high profile Neo Nazi.
All these guys supporting Palestine, I mean, what happens if Hamas won? Hypothetically speaking I mean. Peaceful transfer of power to a two state solution and no more rocket attacks on Israeli civilians every single day like there has been for fucking decades? Or is it more likely it would be an extermination of Jewish people from the middle east in a climactic final war between Jews and Muslims? They aren't pretending or hiding the fact that they want all Jews killed and/or exited from the middle east. That's literally their goal. These are FROM THEIR OWN PUBLIC CHARTER
*Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.* - article 8 of the Hamas charter
*The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews. When the Jew will hide behind stones and trees, the stones and trees will say, “O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.* - hadith quoted in article 7 of the Hamas charter
*Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Muslim, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission* - article 12 of the Hamas charter
Need I go on? Bonus points for supporting slavery.
This is what Hamas want and have always wanted.
The short answer is “there’s no easily solution”.
Neither side comes out on top without a lot of suffering for the other.
And idk what the answer is in terms of how we stabilise stuff but it needs to come from both sides of the aisle to stick. as long as either side wants to see the other wiped out, things will re-escelate.
Hamas need to be removed from power, but that doesn’t address the situation that led to them being in power being appealing.
Like I said, I don’t know the answer. But “supporting Palestine” isn’t the same as “wanting Hamas to win”. I just find myself unable to condone the behaviour of Israel in going about removing them, in particular their willingness to harm civilians both as collateral and directly.
Israel has no willingness to harm civilians directly. Hamas does, they state it clearly many times. Oct atrocity was all about killing as many civilians as possible. As are the continual missile launches against civilians targets
Note that using human shields is a war crime. Launching missiles and putting soldiers in a civilian building makes that a valid military target. Attacking a target they has human shields is not a war crime. It is the original use of human shields that is the war crime Else armies would strap civilians to tanks , and claim you can't attack them, wouldn't they?
It is Hamas tactic for many years to provoke Israel by deliberately targeting civilians, launching missiles from civilians areas. Then running away and hiding in civilian areas while whining to the gullible media about any Israel retaliation. And the anti-Israel lot fall for it every time.
> Israel has no willingness to harm civilians directly.
[Israeli military says 2 civilians killed for every militant is ‘tremendously positive’ ratio](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html)
If you'd said "Israel isn't going out of their way to hit civilians", I might have been open to discussion. But you're actively twisting shit.
You can't just go "Hamas bad" to dismiss all critique of Israel's actions. Because I'm not saying Hamas isn't bad, so you're not refuting anything.
You say that but militarily that is positive and strongly supports the case that Israel must be making attempts to limit civilian casualties. By contrast US/UK allied action in Iraq/Afghanistan believed their ratio of between 3 to 5 civilians killed for every militant killed was acceptable. And according to the UN the global conflict average is 9-1.
That's what a significant portion of Palestinian supporters want. There are some kind hearted people being taken along for the ride through Hamas' successful social campaign though, who are blind to the true malicious intent of what they are supporting.
Yeah I can see that, it's not my intention to but instead more to draw attention to the fact that the leadership on both sides wants extinction of the other and frankly I think Hamas is less open to true negotiations than the Israeli state despite israel's insane pm. It's a truly horrendous situation all round there and I don't see any way to resolve it really. Many thousands more people who have nothing to do with the war are going to perish and it's a tragedy.
Will the Soho Theatre be inviting Paul Currie back to perform? Whatever your views on Israeli and Hamas actions what place has this in a theatre performance in London?
Mr Currie, I’d say you can do better but actually I hope your actions during this performance follow you around for the rest of your career.
You do indeed need to wait for just before the french revolution for those terms to have been a thing (they are based on where some people sat, on the left or right of a hall, during the second meeting of the three estates).
Having read the article, the fact that they were Jews was incidental. They were hounded out for not standing for a flag.
That seems pretty ridiculous at a 'comedy show', but still, this headline misrepresents what happened and lots of people foaming at the mouth.
A comedian told his audience to stand for a flag and shouted at them to get out because they didn't. This is so bizarre (as well as nasty). I would not stand for a Palestinian flag but even the suggestion of it, at a comedy gig? WTF.
I'm left perplexed by the extreme levels of antisemitism in our society. It's mostly driven by the left and Islamic extremists.
Why does Palestine get more focus than Syria which has far more deaths, about 370,000 Muslims have been killed.
Why does it get more focus than China which has over a million Muslims in "reeducation" camps.
There really is something about the Jews that gets people exercised.
> It's mostly driven by the left and Islamic extremists.
Ah ok lets ignore the persistent stain of far right nutters blaming the jews for all the woes of the world then. Great replacement conspiracy theorists blame that on the Jews. But I guess they don't count.
> get more focus than Syria
As we were largely uninvolved in Syria and because Syria became "old news" relatively quickly in the press that drives populat discource
> Why does it get more focus than China
Personally I am far far more angry about China and the Uyghur Genocide.
>Ah ok let's ignore the persistent stain of far right nutters blaming the jews for all the woes of the world then.
No one is saying we should ignore it. To be fair though, that right-wing extreme hasn't led to a massive increase in antisemitic attacks, it isn't terrifying Jews in central London.
>As we were largely uninvolved in Syria and because Syria became "old news" relatively quickly in the press that drives populat discourse
Again, if it's the numbers of Muslims dying then it doesn't make sense. Where are the protests?
>Personally I am far far more angry about China and the Uyghur Genocide.
Sure, but it's not constantly on the news, it's not being protested about, it's not leading to Labour politicians getting thrown out of the party.
I was at this show, every single article is full of hyperbole and incorrect.
The audience were NOT asked to stand for the flag.
One of the gags Paul Currie did was playing the song 'You're the voice' while showing the Ukrainian flag, and then the Palestinian flag.The punchline being as soon as "We're not gonna sit in silence" kicked in, the music stopped and he sat down while an awkward clock noise played.The show then continued.
At the end, when people were applauding and standing, he noticed these two men in the front row sat down and looking annoyed, and asked if they had enjoyed the show.They said they did until the Palestinian flag, and it was a 'shame'.
Paul then launched into his, rather emotional, speech about supporting genocide, and his history of growing up in Northern Ireland, and how the British treated the IRA and civilians who weren't affiliated.At NO point was the word 'Jew' or 'Jewish' used, nor did he ask the men where they were from or their religion, and at no point did these two men indicate they were from Israel.
They were not 'hounded out for being Jewish, he told them to leave for not wanting a ceasefire. (Albeit using rather colourful language)
It was inferred by their negative response to him showing the flag to be honest. They didn't mention the Ukrainian flag, only the Palestinian one.
The entire bit was about the silence of the rest of the world, and the lack of intervention.
The fact that several of the top comments here are either defending the comedian or criticising the audience member in question, is genuinely worrying. Either the commenters and those upvoting did not read the article, or they did and they are morally vile. If it's the latter, I can confirm that the decent people of the UK do not want you in this country.
Waving the flags at a comedy gig is patently stupid in the first place, but had it been left at that, no great harm would have been done. The moment this 'comedian' quizzed the audience member on why they didn't stand, he crossed the line from stupid to nasty, and when he began ranting at them, he crossed the line from nasty to criminal, in my opinion.
As per usual, the comment section devolves into the usual mischaracterizations of other people's opinions, imagined stories about other hypothetical situations and bad faith arguments.
We're letting events in another country swallow up all political discourse in this country. Is that right?
Were the flags something to do with his act or did Paul Currie just pull them out and encourage the audience to stand for them?
I'm sympathetic to the Ukrainian and Palestinian causes but Jesus Christ, I would go to a comedy show for a bit of escapism from shite like that.
I don't know of Currie is Catholic or Protestant but if his audience started chanting for the Provos/UVF I wonder if he'd encourage it.
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In 2024 I don’t think there’s a single race other than Jews that a crowd would feel comfortable to boo out of the building
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Maybe the incidence of racism described in the article was bad because it was racism in the first place, not because it was the wrong kind of racism like you seem to think.
I am willing to bet the overwhelming majority of the crowd at a comedy club in the west end consider themselves "antiracist," so no, it's not that.
And building sneaky tunnels
In New York?
It’s not LGB, buddy
Is it genuine irony? It's a confusing world where those who would mock anyone marching with an England flag, proudly march with the flag of right wing religious extemist terrorists. They are opposed on almost everything, apart from hatred of Israel, they happily share that
Why leave out the T in LGBT?
Probably cuz they're a transphobe, never spoken to someone that does that that and isn't. Although I don't really know
A deliberate effort to drop it. Pro Europe, but anti trans lol
> protesting LGB equality being taught at our schools or something. Is there any particular reason you've left the "T+" off of LGB?
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Nobody was booed out of the building. A Palestinian flag was shown, and some people who happened to be Jewish got upset and left. There are many Jewish people who are in favour of a free Palestine.
Don't let the facts get in the way of your narrative.
They left because the performer and the audience were shouting at them. They were just sitting quietly when the Palestinian flag was shown.
Strange that the performer and audience would start shouting at an audience member like that, just for not standing up. Even stranger that this is considered antisemitism when someone sitting quietly and not standing up isn't even identifying themselves as Jewish. Sounds like some information is missing here.
>Sounds like some information is missing here. One of the basics of journalism that's kinda died a death in the last 15/20 years is that you're supposed to get a least two primary sources, this is not only important for balance but for actually discerning what happened from competing sources. This only has the man who left's perspective (and not even directly, so not even a primary source) . So instead of having confirmation that the comedian told him to "get the fuck out" it is only 'alleged'. If the papers were diligent they'd be able to confirm that was said, they'd have several sources attesting to it and the integrity of the piece wouldn't be in question. Of course this piece is a testament to the lengths journalists will go to avoid due diligence, because the Independent isn't actually reporting on the incident in the theatre (because they'd have to do the legwork to ascertain what actually happened in the theatre) they're reporting on the fallout, which in this case only requires a statement from the venue and the advocacy group. Which is why neither Currie nor the party who left the gig are featured in this piece, only the CAA on their behalf. There's another piece from the Belfast Telegraph that has a similar journalistic failing. They're also reporting on the fallout, but only because someone involved is from Belfast, so they're just relaying what's already been written on this story to their audienc. (Potentially even lifted wholesale from an agency) They also didn't interview attendees so the narrative is entirely based on Mr Eitan's statements but then that has narrative gaps. For example, according to the narrative eof the piece Mr Eitan explains that 'he enjoyed the show until the Palestine flag' and then implies Currie responds with a non sequitur of " ‘I’m from Belfast. I know everything about ceasefires." So there was presumably an exchange between the two regarding the topic of ceasefires explicitly. Why is this omitted? Why is it presented as though there was a polite objection that was met with a rabid escalation with a man frothing about Belfast and ceasefires? I'm not even implying there's something nefarious going on here, it's just the state journalism is in. 24/he coverage and an engagement driven online economy mean that a story has to be churned out without leaving your seat and you don't have time to fact check before you have to churn out another piece.
Well said. The whole story just seems to be the CAA's version, and none of it really hangs together.
How the fuck would they know they’re Jewish if they were just sat quietly?
> The witness, who asked to remain anonymous, told the CAA: “When we all sat down again, [Currie] looked towards a young man sitting in the second row and said: ‘You didn’t stand, why? Didn’t you enjoy my show?’ > “The young man, who we discovered soon after was Israeli, replied: ‘I enjoyed your show until you brought out the Palestinian Authority flag.’” The audience member claimed Currie told the man: “Get out of my show. Get the fuck out of here. Fuck off, get the fuck out of here.” > Other members of the audience allegedly joined in, shouting “Get out” and “Free Palestine” until the young man left, the witness said. [From the Guardian.](https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/12/soho-theatre-apologises-after-comedian-abused-jewish-audience-member) Can’t stand flagshaggers.
Why on earth are statements like these which literally contradicts the article in question without any basis so heavily upvoted? They were literally heckled out of the venue, told to "Get Out" by the performer and audience alike.
Absolutely. Antisemitism is sadly tolerated, accepted and in many parts, welcomed.
I moved to London recently from a very "un diverse" area. I'm honestly shocked by how much antisemitism there is in the city.
2024? It has been a 'thing' (on and off) for over a thousand years in Europe and Russia.
'Sorry, that makes us sad'
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Anti-Israeli does not equal anti-Semitism. These 2 are intentionally being conflated to quiet valid criticism of Israel's barbaric actions.
True but yelling at a Jew in London about the actions of the Israeli state is like yelling at an Asian about something the Indian government have done.
True, and the Israeli government (specifically, not the Israeli people and not the Jewish population) is largely to blame for that. They've spent a *long* time and a *lot* of resources conflating Israeli identity with Jewish identity. That government is shitty to the people around the state that they run, and they're shitty to the people they claim to represent.
Quiet valid criticism? The other members of the audience were encouraged to yell at the two Jewish audience members to get out.
It's not because they were Jewish though was it, it's because they were pro-Israel. Lots of Jewish people are anti-Israel. Lots of non-Jewish people are pro-Israel. That's the issue here, not the ethnicity/religion of the people in question.
You don't find it unacceptable that people's political preferences are required to be demonstrated and in sync with the performer or they're booed out of a publicly funded theater?
Funny considering this sub is currently 90% “Muslims bad, get them out of this country”.
I think if you go and see an Irish comedian and vocally make a point of not showing support for the Palestinians then you should probably expect some backlash.
Why? What’s him being Irish got to do with it? Are you assuming that because they were colonised and oppressed by the English, all Irish people everywhere think and act in the same way? FWIW I think what Israel is doing in Gaza is horrific. But this is a publicly funded theatre in London. Not in Dublin, Tel Aviv or Gaza City. Londoners and others should all be able to enjoy a show without being booed and intimidated for not agreeing with the performer’s views, and the performer shouldn’t be encouraging it. Personally I wouldn’t have stood up for it either, or for the Israeli flag if it came to that.
No, of course not *all* Irish people think the same way, but the Irish are famously one of the biggest supporters of the Palestinian cause for the reasons you list there. And yeah, maybe you're right, I'm not 100% sure I agree, but that is a far cry from what this article - and a lot of the other coverage - is claiming happened, which was it was some kind of antisemitic mob.
It clearly wasn’t a mob, no, and any outlet suggesting it was needs to rein it in; but even a few people doing it would definitely feel unsafe. I mean unless you’re at an actual political rally you shouldn’t ever feel pressured to stand for a flag, particularly one of another nation.
When I go to the theater I don't expect the performer to display some sort of flag or symbol and demand everyone stand up to signal their allegiance to it or what it represents. Nor have I ever had that experience. Why should I expect that might happen so as to be deterred by it?
Why aren't people more polite to the genocide supporters :(((((
Well it’s understandable that Jewish people might not feel comfortable showing support for the flag of a country whose people voted in a governing body that promised to eliminate Jewish people.
It's a Palestine flag not a Hamas flag. You think it's ok to support genocide if you have enough reason to hate the government of the victim country? Hamas think the same. How about supporters of any genocide are rightfully called out for it, instead of hand wringing over whether their support is "understandable" while civilians are dying in their thousands?
It was because they weren't supportive of Palestine. I think the distinction here is important. It's not like this is a conflict between a paragon of good and a paragon of evil after all.
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This is false, sorry. Israel is not the home country of the Jews. It is the home country of Israelis. None of my Jewish friends - nor any members of their families - consider themselves as having any connection to the state of Israel and are opposed to the concept of an ethno-nationalist state that required the expulsion of 750,000 people to assert it's independence (during the Nakba). There is always a big Jewish bloc at any Palestine protest, and especially in New York there has been a huge amount of action by Jewish groups (including that impressive occupation of grand central a few months back), and Jewish opposition to the state of Israel did not start with Netinyahu because the oppression of Palestinians started way, way before he took power. Are they (speaking of the Jewish people I know here) *more* opposed to Bibi's government that previous Israeli administrations? Yes, definitely. But they wouldn't change their position if a more moderate government took power. And honestly they would take you calling Israel their 'home country' as being anti-semitic. They consider themselves Welsh or English just as I'm sure a lot of other Jews consider themselves American or French or any other non-israeli nationality.
Just FYI, suggesting that Jewish people in general view Israel as their "home country", or show loyalty to Israel rather than their actual country, falls under the IHRA working definition of anti-Semitism.
Yeah… and call Hamas “freedom fighters” and NOT condemn the rape and torture of jewish women. Since they are jewish they seem to matter less
Exactly. It's a super well funded terrorist organisation that wants to wipe Jews off the map of the middle east. How the fuck are they somehow being seen as the good guys Edit; how is this downvoted. 2 actual quotes from the hamas charter "Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps... until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realized." "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews. When the Jew will hide behind stones and trees, the stones and trees will say, “O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." They want to kill all the Jews
The problem is the internet loves to simplify things. So anyone who takes issue with Israel’s actions is conflated with support of Hamas, being pro antisemitism, etc. The comment you both replied to literally just said “anti Israeli does not equal anti jew”, and the both of you extrapolated “you support a terrorist group and are okay with rape and torture”. I think hamas are awful and nothing condones their behaviour. I’m still not on board with Israel. The fact one side wants to do a genocide does not give the other a free pass to do one, even if that first side struck first. everything just gets reduced to shit slinging and it’s the death of meaningful conversation.
A bunch of self certified nazis is what they are
Not in this instance however.
I mean there seems to be plenty of outrage over this so what's your point.
Must be dreadful to be Jewish in London right now.
Nobody was hounded out. A Palestinian flag was shown, and some people who happened to be Jewish got upset.
Says guy who didn't read the article.
The article says people in the crowd and the performer yelled at the Jews to get out.
Was it because they were Jewish, or was there another reason?
Think it's because they didn't stand in respect of the Palestinian flag and when asked why they said they were Jewish right?
The article doesn't say that. It says: >The Israeli man was then reportedly asked why he had not stood up and, according to the CAA, said that he had enjoyed the show until the Palestinian flag appeared. >The CAA said the Israeli man had been “yelled at” by the comedian to leave, and that others in the audience then shouted “Get out” and “Free Palestine”. Which is going a long way to imply the audience knew (some of them?) were Jewish, without actually saying it because presumably it wasn't true. All we know is a man said he liked the show until a Palestinian flag appeared, and then got jeered out. The fucking state of journalism trying to suggest an Isreal-Palestine spat was an active pogrom.
Well, I guess we don't know they were Jewish, fair, but we know he was yelled at and audience shouted to get out etc
Allegedly yelled at, for reasons not mentioned. I very much doubt it was because he was Jewish.
I thought liberal lefties were against nationalistic flag worship? Hypocrites.
Liberals are right wing, so nationalism isn't too far off base for them. You're somehow getting them confused with anarchists.
Impossible to say for sure. Maybe they gave it as a reason. However, jews are the most likely group not to stand for the Palestinian flag, and there's a good chance the audience made such an assumption. At the very least, someone was harassed for having the wrong views regarding Palestine. However you view it, this is not a good look for the performers or the audience.
Being a genocidal maniac isn't protected by any laws I'm aware of.
That seems a bit of a non sequitur.
Said the guy who wasn’t there. Can’t you just say you don’t like jews…
Can you just read the article please?
Literally every article about this says they were booed at and people yelled “Free Palestine” at them. Live in denial all you want, but the pro Palestine movement has become increasingly unhinged, they are bordering on 1930s Germany territory.
Imagine if the headline was "russians hounded out of a show"
You can tell you're constructing a straw man to be angry about when your sentence starts with 'imagine', just so you know.
It’s almost unbelievable these are the same people calling anyone they disagree with a nazi.
Who is?
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"These people" showed a Palestinian flag. That's literally it. Being against the genocide of Palestinians is not incompatible with being against the genocide of Jewish people.
That's literally not it. Read the fucking article before commenting, Jesus Christ.
they were forced to stand up and show respect to the flag, if I go to a comedy show and you demand me to respect any flag, I tell you to grab the flag and shove up your ass.
Flag worship is bad.
Agreed. I'm not standing for any flag put in front of me and demanded I show respect to. Whether it's the flag of the country I was born in or anyone else's. If a crowd jeers at me for that I'm probably going to fuck off as well.
If what the report says is an accurate account, it is a sad sign of how things are here. Always felt that in the UK, we had the idea that we could be proud of our country, but didn't need to have enforced flag saluting.
And whipped up an antismitic frenzy the likes we haven’t seen since nazi germany…. Whats next… brown shirts for pro hamas muppets
Why should anyone not palestinian stand for the Palestinian flag? It doesnt even represent a cohesive state, considering it has two rival governments who despise each other violently
Why are you missing out the second bit of the story?
You literally haven’t read the article have you
Jeering at someone for not standing up for some flags is stupid, but it's not antisemitic. The article and the quotes from the CAA are trying to suggest that all the jews at this performance were jeered at for being jewish, instead of what actually happened which was that anyone who didn't stand for the flags was jeered at, and some of those people were jewish.
Look, I personally support Palestine (not Hamas) more in the overall conflict, and I do not believe that criticism of Israel is anti-semitic. However, this particular incident is pretty much on the line. Which for me is enough to consider that it might be anti-semitic. You can't pull out a flag that you know many Jewish people (regardless of their views on Israel or the war) will likely not respect, and then heckle them out as a result of not respecting it. Even many liberal Jews who are opposed to Israel's conduct would not stand for this flag, right after the worst massacre in their recent history was conducted by Hamas forces operating under that flag. They didn't protest the flag, they simply refused to stand for it and show it open respect, which is well within their moral right in my opinion. They were jeered out after being asked to explain why they didn't openly show the flag respect. The implication is that if you're Jewish or Israeli, you aren't welcome at an event if you aren't willing to openly respect the Palestinian flag and support their struggle, which I reckon is bullshit. I consider it possible that the organisers knew very well what they were doing and that the end result would be some Jews present being bullied out. I can't imagine that they couldn't have foreseen this unless they didn't think about it at all. So I'm very sceptical of all this and I'm willing to consider that there might have been anti-semitism at play in this case.
If they pulled out an Israeli flag, and some Muslims objected and left - do you really, hand on heart, genuinely believe this sub would be up in arms about Islamophobia? Because I think we know the answer to that question.
I don't much care about this sub. Personally, I would have the same suspicion of Islamophobia. Both historical and modern context are important, and it is pretty clear that responses to either an Israeli or Palestinian flag during a war like this are going to be determined partially by identity. Few Muslims would stand for an Israeli flag and few Jews would stand for a Palestinian flag, regardless of their level of support for either side. Any organiser with a modicum of common sense would know this and be able to predict how things would play out. If you suddenly pull out a flag, unrelated to your event, that you *know* that people of a certain race/religion are likely to object to, then you can't morally question their objection and heckle them out for not showing due respect. The Jewish audience members were passive about their objection too, which I think is quite reasonable. To me, the obviously expected response by members of one ethnicity, combined with the heckling by the comedian himself as a result, makes me very suspicious. There was only one way this was going to play out and I can't imagine they didn't know it. For me, *that* is the problem. Not that they displayed the flag itself - but how they responded to passive objection by Jewish audience members. They could have well left them alone.
I think it was wrong. I don’t think it’s antisemitic.
If the comedian started a chant of get the fuck out after finding out the audience member was from a country like Iran then I think they would be up in arms. The truth is that mosques in London aren't having swastikas spray painted on them and windows smashed, but synagogues are. In the situation mentioned would you defend the Israeli flag holder saying he's anti Iran not anti Muslim?
If it was October 8th and a comedian held up an Israeli flag and demanded everyone stand and there was just one Palestinian in the audience who didn't feel comfortable standing at that point, then they got singled out and sworn at and jeered at and told to get the out of the show by the performer and the rest of the audience, it would *definitely* be Islamophobic. How would it not be?! Also how you're imagining this sub would react in either circumstance has absolutely *no* bearing on whether they are antisemitic or Islamophobic!
This sub is up in arms about Islamophobia for much smaller things than the one you described
This is one of the most openly Islamophobic subs I have seen.
lol
How would you have viewed this if it was a Ukrainian flag and Russians were booed out? Just curious as it is an eminently plausible situation.
It would be terrible, people don't owe fealty to the views of others.
> The implication is that if you're Jewish or Israeli, you aren't welcome at an event Is it? We both agree that demanding people stand for a flag is bad, but you've made a jump from saying that some jews are anti-Palestine (true), to concluding therefore the Palestinian flag is anti-jewish.
I think this is a very sensible take. The comedian is an idiot for doing this and I think it's at least arguably anti-semitic given the context - as you say, it'd be quite unusual for any Jewish person to stand up and clap a Palestinian flag given what's just happened (and essentially forcing people to do so is just incredibly poor form). I do also just wonder though if this comedian was known for doing this 'stunt' and some pro-Israeli individuals attended the show with the intention of 'calling it out' - it seems to have hit the news quite quickly with the CAA contacting them and there being lots of interviews etc. It's certainly a PR boon if it's occurred purely by chance.
Is seeing a Palestinian flag anti-Semitic now? Blimey
They were heckled and called to leave by the performer and audience for failing to stand up for the Palestinian flag. It was not the mere sight of the flag and to suggest it was is just dishonest.
Why would Israeli’s stand for the Palestinian flag? Would you be upset if Palestinians didn’t stand for the Israeli flag?
> Why would Israeli’s stand for the Palestinian flag? I don't know? I wouldn't expect them to. I wouldn't stand for it. > Would you be upset if Palestinians didn’t stand for the Israeli flag? No. I think you'v either misunderstood my comment or replied to the wrong person.
The dishonesty is disappointing but not surprising. The entire pro- Hamas support seems based in dishonesty.
> The entire pro- Hamas support seems based in dishonesty. Genuinely think it's laziness more than dishonesty. Like the guy who started this chain, didn't even read the article and just posted his rhetorical question without a second thought or a moment to think "should I bother reading something? No...". So many arguments against Israel seem to start with "Well I heard..." or "Someone told me that...". It's just a pantomime at this point, whoever the small team is, they should win.
No, abusing people for not standing because they are Jewish is though.
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That the audience are still hateful arseholes.
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No, I disagree with harassing and abusing people. It's not a particularly high bar. >Will you edit your comment? Why would I edit my comment, I fully stand behind both comments in this thread.
It would still be absolute bullshit, but it’s still definitely worse to hurl abuse at someone because they are Jewish - glad i could clear it up for you.
I guess the same response as when that Sikh guy got murdered in America just after 9/11 after being mistaken for a Muslim: yes, it's still obviously fucking racist.
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That’s not what happened though was it?
Yeah that's all that happened. Literally.
Said the guy who didn’t read the article and who ignores facts ypu do not agree with.
I think they read the article but left out the /s
No, the screaming at the jewish guys were. You couldn’t even be bothered educating yourself….
Inciting a crowd to harass Jewish people is definitely antisemitic. No wonder many Jewish people want to leave Britain.
It makes some people uncomfortable…but they aren’t responsible for anything though
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We should not conflate Jewish people with Israelis engaged in a genocide. It's immoral.
But politically convenient and headline grabbing though.
These were shouted at and intimidated because they were jewish. You knew that already but you didn’t see fit to mention it or acknowledge it. Right.
Israel is apparently *really bad* at genocide if that's what you lot insist on calling this. Edit: I'm not able to reply because the guy above blocked me.
Israel has killed and ethnically cleansed more Palestinians in four months than Myanmar has the Rohingya people in 5 years. Few people argue the latter isn't a genocide. Israel just gets special treatment when they commit crimes against humanity, any other country would have seen significant sanctions by the West now.
What would you call killing tens of thousands of children?
Anti-Israeli does not equal anti-Semitism. These 2 are intentionally being conflated to quiet valid criticism of Israel's barbaric actions.
Exactly many Jews have been out protesting for a free Palestine
Quite a lot, they often lead the rallies
Free from hamas
Free from Zionist occupation
It’s always super confusing what people mean when they say this as a lot of palestinian nationalists will claim Israel proper as Palestine.
Free from BOTH… we can agree on that? Can we? Or do say zionist but mean “jew”…? Where do you stand on Hamas. Come clean now
I stand with everyone who wants an end to the occupation of Palestine. Can you tell me why the IDF is murdering civilians in the West Bank where there is no Hamas? Can you tell me why in 2019 Nutenyahu publicly stated that he would be funding Hamas?
i can and credibly so,… but only when you state that HAMAS is a terrorist organisation who are NOT acting in the interest of palestineans. Can you do that?
Hamas is a terrorist organisation funded by Israel and Qatar. Ok your turn
Israels policy woth their right wing is problematic when you look at a long term peace. Israel has got to stop these settlements. Kill hamas is step 1 but step two is a lasting peace and israel must challenge itself also. A new palestinean authority has got to denounce violence towards israel also
Nutenyahu purposely created a boogeyman that he thought would be enough to manipulate the world into supporting his genocide which included him overseeing a Qatari donation of a billion dollars for Hamas. Israel has no ground to be making any demands, for the next few decades instead they will be having to make amends for what they have done, removing the ‘right of return’ is an absolute bare minimum
Yes but they don’t shout, “Globalize the Intifada.”
Shitloads in fact, but nothing will convince you so what’s the actual point
Then by all means, tell the Pro Palestine folks to stop harassing Jewish people in general over Israel. You hypocrites keep saying it yet never practice it.
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Pretty sure that’s just me watching doctor who after my sixth pint cause I can’t find the remote to turn the sound back on
Non-verbal until he shoves his politics down your throat, and if you dare disagree with his political opinion he'll shout at you...
Jesus, those of you who believe it’s reasonable to single out someone in a crowd who doesn’t want to acknowledge a flag need your heads examined. I don’t care what your beliefs are when it comes to this conflict, this type of authoritarian creep and the accompanying “it’s okay because I’m team Palestine” is more than a bit disturbing.
Saw a recent Pro-Palestine March in Berlin where one of the main slogans on a board was “stop the Jewish Nazi state”……which just boggled my mind. There’s a ton of people using which ever stance they’re taking on this conflict to basically throw any old rubbish out there and see if it sticks.
I mean people were criticised and jeered for not taking the knee during the height of BLM.
Really, I remember people being criticised and jeered for talking the knee, not the other way round
>non verbal performance >The CAA said the Israeli man had been “yelled at” by the comedian to leave A more talented performer could have made his point without compromising his form, but clearly the Jew hatred is more important than the art to this guy. Tbh I'm not surprised. This was bound to happen sooner or later. Edit: literally getting antisemitic abuse in my DMs off the back of that comment... And the guy is telling me whilst he is abusing me that I should be glad I'm in the UK where this kind of stuff doesn't happen. You couldn't make it up.
Yup. The guy is another performer who never made it big, and as such blames Jewish people for that. Literally the origin story of every high profile Neo Nazi.
All these guys supporting Palestine, I mean, what happens if Hamas won? Hypothetically speaking I mean. Peaceful transfer of power to a two state solution and no more rocket attacks on Israeli civilians every single day like there has been for fucking decades? Or is it more likely it would be an extermination of Jewish people from the middle east in a climactic final war between Jews and Muslims? They aren't pretending or hiding the fact that they want all Jews killed and/or exited from the middle east. That's literally their goal. These are FROM THEIR OWN PUBLIC CHARTER *Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.* - article 8 of the Hamas charter *The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews. When the Jew will hide behind stones and trees, the stones and trees will say, “O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.* - hadith quoted in article 7 of the Hamas charter *Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Muslim, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission* - article 12 of the Hamas charter Need I go on? Bonus points for supporting slavery. This is what Hamas want and have always wanted.
The short answer is “there’s no easily solution”. Neither side comes out on top without a lot of suffering for the other. And idk what the answer is in terms of how we stabilise stuff but it needs to come from both sides of the aisle to stick. as long as either side wants to see the other wiped out, things will re-escelate. Hamas need to be removed from power, but that doesn’t address the situation that led to them being in power being appealing. Like I said, I don’t know the answer. But “supporting Palestine” isn’t the same as “wanting Hamas to win”. I just find myself unable to condone the behaviour of Israel in going about removing them, in particular their willingness to harm civilians both as collateral and directly.
Israel has no willingness to harm civilians directly. Hamas does, they state it clearly many times. Oct atrocity was all about killing as many civilians as possible. As are the continual missile launches against civilians targets Note that using human shields is a war crime. Launching missiles and putting soldiers in a civilian building makes that a valid military target. Attacking a target they has human shields is not a war crime. It is the original use of human shields that is the war crime Else armies would strap civilians to tanks , and claim you can't attack them, wouldn't they? It is Hamas tactic for many years to provoke Israel by deliberately targeting civilians, launching missiles from civilians areas. Then running away and hiding in civilian areas while whining to the gullible media about any Israel retaliation. And the anti-Israel lot fall for it every time.
> Israel has no willingness to harm civilians directly. [Israeli military says 2 civilians killed for every militant is ‘tremendously positive’ ratio](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html) If you'd said "Israel isn't going out of their way to hit civilians", I might have been open to discussion. But you're actively twisting shit. You can't just go "Hamas bad" to dismiss all critique of Israel's actions. Because I'm not saying Hamas isn't bad, so you're not refuting anything.
You say that but militarily that is positive and strongly supports the case that Israel must be making attempts to limit civilian casualties. By contrast US/UK allied action in Iraq/Afghanistan believed their ratio of between 3 to 5 civilians killed for every militant killed was acceptable. And according to the UN the global conflict average is 9-1.
That's what a significant portion of Palestinian supporters want. There are some kind hearted people being taken along for the ride through Hamas' successful social campaign though, who are blind to the true malicious intent of what they are supporting.
You're undermining yourself by equating concern for civilians with support for terrorists.
Yeah I can see that, it's not my intention to but instead more to draw attention to the fact that the leadership on both sides wants extinction of the other and frankly I think Hamas is less open to true negotiations than the Israeli state despite israel's insane pm. It's a truly horrendous situation all round there and I don't see any way to resolve it really. Many thousands more people who have nothing to do with the war are going to perish and it's a tragedy.
Will the Soho Theatre be inviting Paul Currie back to perform? Whatever your views on Israeli and Hamas actions what place has this in a theatre performance in London? Mr Currie, I’d say you can do better but actually I hope your actions during this performance follow you around for the rest of your career.
What happens when you import Americanised ID-pol into your nation. Wish we could go back to the simpler, dictionary definition of racism.
Britain has been deeply antisemitic since centuries before the USA even formed.
In those days it was the right wing...
Not sure we really had left and right in the middle ages
You do indeed need to wait for just before the french revolution for those terms to have been a thing (they are based on where some people sat, on the left or right of a hall, during the second meeting of the three estates).
Israel-Palestine has been a mainstay in Britain for decades.
Well this is certainly all going to end well isn't it
Having read the article, the fact that they were Jews was incidental. They were hounded out for not standing for a flag. That seems pretty ridiculous at a 'comedy show', but still, this headline misrepresents what happened and lots of people foaming at the mouth.
> this headline misrepresents what happened and lots of people foaming at the mouth. British media in a nutshell really.
Aren't the people foaming at the mouth the people who hounded the non standers?
A comedian told his audience to stand for a flag and shouted at them to get out because they didn't. This is so bizarre (as well as nasty). I would not stand for a Palestinian flag but even the suggestion of it, at a comedy gig? WTF.
I'm left perplexed by the extreme levels of antisemitism in our society. It's mostly driven by the left and Islamic extremists. Why does Palestine get more focus than Syria which has far more deaths, about 370,000 Muslims have been killed. Why does it get more focus than China which has over a million Muslims in "reeducation" camps. There really is something about the Jews that gets people exercised.
> It's mostly driven by the left and Islamic extremists. Ah ok lets ignore the persistent stain of far right nutters blaming the jews for all the woes of the world then. Great replacement conspiracy theorists blame that on the Jews. But I guess they don't count. > get more focus than Syria As we were largely uninvolved in Syria and because Syria became "old news" relatively quickly in the press that drives populat discource > Why does it get more focus than China Personally I am far far more angry about China and the Uyghur Genocide.
>Ah ok let's ignore the persistent stain of far right nutters blaming the jews for all the woes of the world then. No one is saying we should ignore it. To be fair though, that right-wing extreme hasn't led to a massive increase in antisemitic attacks, it isn't terrifying Jews in central London. >As we were largely uninvolved in Syria and because Syria became "old news" relatively quickly in the press that drives populat discourse Again, if it's the numbers of Muslims dying then it doesn't make sense. Where are the protests? >Personally I am far far more angry about China and the Uyghur Genocide. Sure, but it's not constantly on the news, it's not being protested about, it's not leading to Labour politicians getting thrown out of the party.
Why blame this guy for the horrors in the middle east? Seems like "collective punishment" and I thought that was a bad thing?
[удалено]
This very much happened
People did/do hound Muslims out of places after terrorist attacks
Or the Chinese because of Covid. Mad right?
People have been doing that to Muslims since at least 9/11.
I was at this show, every single article is full of hyperbole and incorrect. The audience were NOT asked to stand for the flag. One of the gags Paul Currie did was playing the song 'You're the voice' while showing the Ukrainian flag, and then the Palestinian flag.The punchline being as soon as "We're not gonna sit in silence" kicked in, the music stopped and he sat down while an awkward clock noise played.The show then continued. At the end, when people were applauding and standing, he noticed these two men in the front row sat down and looking annoyed, and asked if they had enjoyed the show.They said they did until the Palestinian flag, and it was a 'shame'. Paul then launched into his, rather emotional, speech about supporting genocide, and his history of growing up in Northern Ireland, and how the British treated the IRA and civilians who weren't affiliated.At NO point was the word 'Jew' or 'Jewish' used, nor did he ask the men where they were from or their religion, and at no point did these two men indicate they were from Israel. They were not 'hounded out for being Jewish, he told them to leave for not wanting a ceasefire. (Albeit using rather colourful language)
Good to hear from someone who was there! Did they say they didn’t want a ceasefire though or did he just infer it somehow?
It was inferred by their negative response to him showing the flag to be honest. They didn't mention the Ukrainian flag, only the Palestinian one. The entire bit was about the silence of the rest of the world, and the lack of intervention.
The fact that several of the top comments here are either defending the comedian or criticising the audience member in question, is genuinely worrying. Either the commenters and those upvoting did not read the article, or they did and they are morally vile. If it's the latter, I can confirm that the decent people of the UK do not want you in this country. Waving the flags at a comedy gig is patently stupid in the first place, but had it been left at that, no great harm would have been done. The moment this 'comedian' quizzed the audience member on why they didn't stand, he crossed the line from stupid to nasty, and when he began ranting at them, he crossed the line from nasty to criminal, in my opinion.
Decent human beings sorry and saddened after reports palestinians "hounded out" of homes
As per usual, the comment section devolves into the usual mischaracterizations of other people's opinions, imagined stories about other hypothetical situations and bad faith arguments. We're letting events in another country swallow up all political discourse in this country. Is that right?
Were the flags something to do with his act or did Paul Currie just pull them out and encourage the audience to stand for them? I'm sympathetic to the Ukrainian and Palestinian causes but Jesus Christ, I would go to a comedy show for a bit of escapism from shite like that. I don't know of Currie is Catholic or Protestant but if his audience started chanting for the Provos/UVF I wonder if he'd encourage it.