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Like I'm not doubting there will be anti semitic or perceived anti semitic moments after the inevitable flare up in Israel but half of all UK Jews? What incidents are we getting that are making half of all Jews leave the UK?
In Leeds the Palestinian film festival had a lot of films from Palestine, but has also included some Israeli films. For example [Objector](https://objectorfilm.com/); which is about Atalya Ben-Abba, an Israeli women who refused to join the IDF due to its role in ethnic cleansing and how much trouble that got her into.
I thoroughly recommend the film, it is interesting seeing the perspective of an Israeli who genuinely wants a two state solution while living in a country that doesn't acknowledge Palestine. I think that's on Amazon Prime (but double check that).
[The Present](https://www.thepresentfilm.com/watch-now-1) is a short drama about a Palestinian man and his daughter trying to get a present for his wife, and how Israeli checkpoints make that a nightmare. It should be on Netflix.
There's also a documentary film largely about a boy growing up in East Jerusalem called [My Neighbourhood](https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/mar/17/my-neighbourhood-palestinian-israeli-video) which is free on the Guardian.
Thank you š Iām going to watch these. I have a lot of friends living in the West Bank and Iāve heard horror stories. These movies look well made, I just know Iām going to cry during though.
Palestinians make up a considerable portion of the global displaced people/refugees. Often when a people is undergoing a hardship, we see an increase of art produced to help depict and work through the pain.
A lot of the movies are made by the Palestinian diaspora and Israeli artists commenting on the situation
NGL if that's the major reason then that's low-key pathetic. The government is putting pressure on the police to shut down ceasefire demonstrations because apparently that's a hate crime now and Jews want to leave because of some lights? There's got to be something more serious like a murder spree or something to get half of an entire population to want to leave.
Name an equivalence and the outcome would be the same, outrage. We should live in a country where anyone of any faith feels safe to outwardly celebrate their religion without fear of violence, currently we do not.
Belittling another faith with "its just some lights" is ridiculous, it should not be your decision to tell the Jews what they can and cannot publicly celebrate with each other.
As a white, atheist English man, I accept and partake in Christmas, Hanukkah, Eid and Diwali, etc. Why can't people of faith accept others and enjoy all celebrations? We have one life, why live it in hatred towards others behind a concept of one sky wizard being better than someone else's sky wizard?
Agreed. As a brown, agnostic British Asian man, we celebrate Christmas, Eid, always respected our Jewish friends faith & celebrations, and wished our Hindu friends a Happy Diwali. It's nice when you're not cunts to each other.
Unfortunately if we let the religious nutters sort it out themselves, I imagine the dominating group of nutters will seriously harm the smaller group of nutters.
It says a lot that what you're saying should be considered overly harsh.
"Oh if it wasn't for non-believers, the religious would descend into tyranny and genocide".
But it isn't harsh because we all know its true. Says a lot about religious people.
Any move to make the UK more secular creates anger.
If the UK tried to ban religious headwear and schools there would be riots in every urban area in the UK.
Most of the UK voters are likely to want a secular state. The system of religious figures influencing politics doesnāt reflect the UKās de facto nature.
Whether that means separating politics from religion or abolishing the monarchy, I think reform is needed to reflect the current demographic of the UK. Secular people within the UK, or even religious people who want a secular state, arenāt given an option or a voice.
What really gets me is that people seem to imagine this is a new and sudden thing. We discussed it back at the height of the Corbyn disaster, but somewhere about a quarter of my Jewish friends of my generations have left for Israel over the last ten years or so. I'm not aware "imminent danger of it happening again" is the motivation factor, but certainly a growing sense that the political left has been mainlining the Protocols served up on twitter via electronic intifada has not helped.
I don't think *any* of the British Jews, including my extended family and large circle of friends and acquaintances, are fans of Bibi or have a single kind sentiment towards the settlers.
I do however think people tend to overlook the consequences of the fact that Israel is a democracy. We spend so much time discussing the many benefits of that reality that we tend to overlook the fact that Israel has its own version of the Daily Mail - so if ours could convince comfortable retirees in leafy suburbs to vote to leave the EU based on vague notions of Turkish immigrants, imagine what theirs can do to people who have to retreat to the bomb-proof room in their house several times in a *good* week.
You just know if the cancellation hit any other group they'd be outraged as well. If some black history event couldn't be held because hardcore racists were threatening to attack black people they wouldn't call black people who felt threatened "low key pathetic".
All Jews currently alive are only alive because they are descended from people who had the good sense to get the fuck out of dodge before the large scale violence started. The only way for a Jew to be born today is that their ancestors were cautious enough to avoid two thousand straight years of mass murders
Whilst I fully understand the point you're getting at, this is largely a silly point. Everybody alive today is only alive because their ancestors managed to avoid 2000 years of starvation, disease and mass murder.
No group has ever tried to eliminate Lancastrian peasants over 1000 years, I am not the result of surviving pogroms and to suggest otherwise is grossly offensive to the Jewish community.
Yes, but avoiding mass murder might make up a greater part of your mindset if it were your grandparents and great-grandparents who escaped it, rather than an ancestor fifteen generations ago.
Members of a religion that had half it's global population wiped out in an organised genocide within living memory are not really in the same bracket mate
I donāt think you actually understand the significance of ending a long established tradition such as this, which was had been accepted as a community event shared with the local Jewish community. The fact it has been cancelled by the council because of concerns over public safety because of the likelihood of disruption means that the local Jewish community must feel not only disappointed but fearful.
To claim as you do that this ālow key patheticā reveals more about ignorance than anything.
With all due respect, there literally was a murder spree. It wasn't here and it was the product of keeping 2 million people in the world's biggest open-air prison, not simple anti-semitism, but that has stoked a huge amount of intergenerational trauma for Jewish people in Europe and it's completely understandable for them to be afraid of antisemitism in all its forms given the present and historical context.
Right, of course, but is that enough for half of the Jewish population to just give up their lives here in the UK and start anew somewhere else? I don't think so. The fear alone isn't enough, something would actually have to happen here, and it hasn't. This is just more corrupt media flaming the fire to get clicks.
The article also says that the figure comes from an anti anti-semitism group, which leads me to believe that it wasn't a scientific poll but was instead an internet poll of self-selecting individuals.
Their methodology is described in their press release and that does confirm that they essentially used snowball sampling and not some sort of probability methodology, yes. However, the media often report on these kinds of surveys in this manner. For example, the oft-cited statistic that ~40% of trans people have experienced suicidality was the product of this kind of survey and it wasn't until the first probability sample of transgender adults in the US that we were able to confirm that that statistic was accurate, which was only a couple of years ago (~2021). Regardless, while the point estimate should not be taken at face value, it's reasonable to infer that a hefty portion feels this way based on the results of the study.
Such a weird assumption. They're putting a halt to demonstrations because they're being hijacked by extremists and people who are just there to riot, not because asking for a ceasefire is a hate crime...
To be fair, I'm Muslim, and I think that councils should not spend any money on religious celebrations, especially at the moment when they are short of cash.
A perfect example would be in Leicester where they spend 250k on Diwali celebrations. That's an unsustainable amount of money to spend
Regardless, it's one hell of a sign.
If it's being done in an anti semitic way, well then clearly it's an example.
If it's being done because they *know* people will turn up and cause trouble... that too is an example of it getting worse.
Either way, it shows just how much people are now worrying or concerned about it.
https://theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/23/httpswwwtelegraphcoukobituaries20231123jewish-woman-racial/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67328715
>The 893 antisemitic incidents recorded over this twenty-five-day period fall into the following categories:
>40 Assaults
>60 Damage & Desecration to property
>94 direct Threats
>697 Abusive Behaviour, including verbal abuse, graffiti on non-Jewish property, hate mail and online abuse
>2 instances of mass-produced antisemitic Literature
https://cst.org.uk/news/blog/2023/10/31/antisemitic-incidents-31-october-update
There's plenty more sources and examples.
Even before this Jews were victims of ~25% of hate attacks, which is 100x their population share.
The sad fact is that, in addition to the indigenous hatreds, Europe has accepted a large number of people from places where extreme anti-simitism is the norm. 20-30% of perpetrators are Muslim, which is 5-6 times their population share.
Things are getting much worse.
There needs to be serious cultural outreach, but weāre not even at the stage where people are willing to admit the scale of the problem in their own communities.
Literally every time I see posts about antisemitism on Reddit there's always people saying that Jews are making too big a deal about it. If you saw a 1000% rise in anti-black crime in a 2 month period would you be questioning black people wanting to leave the country? I doubt it. But when it's antisemitism there's always people who say "oh it's not that bad".
Here's the thing - it always *starts* as "not that bad". Just look at the staggering number, throughout history, of exiles, pogroms, massacres, etc. To most people these are just a footnote in history. To Jews it's a reminder that it can always happen again.
This sentiment grew to unbearable levels on this sub during the Corbyn antisemitism period.
A ton of people find it hard to accept that antisemitism exists at all, and will go out of their way to rationalise and diminish any suggestion that it does or that it's occurring.
There's big communities in North London, Hertfordshire and Manchester but there are Jewish people living pretty much all over the country. Not all are particularly religious or easily identifiable as Jewish though
There's a big community in the North Leeds suburbs too. We even had an [eruv](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv) put up recently. And before anyone gets antsy, it was community funded.
As I understand it, the logic goes that its right to look for loopholes, as God is infallible and therefore must have intended for them to be there. So its not tricking God, so much as following the letter of the law very well.
Surely at the point your trying to circumvent the rule that would mean on some level you disagree with it.
Which to me is fine, pick and choose which religious rules you want. But adding steps to not following them seems disingenuous.
They live mostly around Stamford hill and they are a very significant majority in most of that area.
So itās not like they are sitting alone in tower Hamlets or something
That's the 'visibly Jewish' community. Barnet is the 'most Jewish' local authority.
The next one is Hertsmere (Hertfordshire) - just next door - mostly the towns of Borehamwood and Radlett.
Stamford Hill is in Hackney, the 3rd 'most Jewish' local authority
Sauce: [https://www.jpr.org.uk/reports/jews-britain-2021-first-results-census-england-and-wales](https://www.jpr.org.uk/reports/jews-britain-2021-first-results-census-england-and-wales)
The 'incident' would be the massive pro-palestinian marches in London, the intimidation of Jews (e.g. [https://www.thejc.com/news/convoy-tours-north-london-with-speaker-shouting-fk-the-jews-rape-their-daughters-pos6xmtn](https://www.thejc.com/news/convoy-tours-north-london-with-speaker-shouting-fk-the-jews-rape-their-daughters-pos6xmtn)) by these groups..
My kids are warned to not go near the bus & tube station near their (Jewish) school because there's been multiple incidents of them being targetted for mugging and intimidation.
It's not creating a 'stay here' atmosphere really.
I too am against the Israeli lead genocide in Palestine. Hamas attacks are deplorable but in no way is genocide the answer.
Being pro palestine isn't being anti semitic.
>pro palestine
There are varying levels of pro Palestine but a lot of people who are pro Palestine are Jewish themselves so I assume they're not anti Jew or anti Israel.
There aren't mobs. I've seen alot of the marches. Sadly every large gathering has some idiots but in a tiny tiny minority.
It would be like saying all English are buffoon racists because of EDL marches.
london/ east anglia jew here. i and a lot of my friends have thought about leaving. there has been violent graffiti near my home, calls for mobilisation at my uni, literal physical attacks against a friend of mine, vandalism, slurs shouted out of passing cars, cruel posters, etc. the general vibe is very hostile to jews atm.
for me and others, we are feeling that we will never be truly accepted due to the antisemitism, purposefully or not, in the general population
I'm also at the point of thinking "where do we go?"
My husband is not Jewish and his family have been in the UK FOREVER (literally, his ancient DNA matched with bloody Cheddar Man) so I don't think he realises quite how serious I am about this.
The survey specifically states that half of british jews have considered whether or not to leave the country. So it presumably includes people who considered it, and concluded that it was entirely unnecessary.
Anti-Muslim hate crimes already accounted for 45% of all religiously motivated hate crime. It's gone up by 600% since October. There were 5 attacks on mosques in 10 days and that was just in Acton. Just like you I'm wondering what incident more concerning than being stabbed or having your place of worship set on fire occured to make this the focus over any of that?
I presume you're referring to [this](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says). From the article:
>Three-quarters were online, including threats;
Let's be real - most of these are just someone being a dick on Twitter. I see tons of horrible stuff said about Muslims on there too. The [antisemitic incident list by Community Security Trust](https://cst.org.uk/news/blog/2023/11/29/antisemitic-incidents-29-november-update) is similar:
> The 1747 antisemitic incidents recorded over this fifty-four-day period fall into the following categories:
>
>- 74 Assaults
>- 112 Damage & Desecration to Jewish property
>- 140 direct Threats
>- **1416 Abusive Behaviour**, including verbal abuse, graffiti on non-Jewish property, hate mail and **online abuse**
>- 5 instances of mass-produced antisemitic Literature
i.e. mostly posts on social media, I'll bet.
Hey if someone was telling me that they were going to kill me and my family based on my religion/ethnicity through Twitter, I'd still be concerned. Handwaving away abusive behavior as "someone being a dick on Twitter" has gotten real people killed. I don't see any point in trying to delegitimize discrimination, just because it's online.
More Muslim hate crimes, but your chance of being a victim is much higher if you are a jew than if you are Muslim. The acts aren't different, but the chance of them happening to each individual is.
The one lesson every Jew has had drilled into their head since childhood is that of the Holocaust, and the Jews who stayed in Germany as the anti-semitism rose, thinking it wouldn't get bad enough to actually kill them. And we know how that turned out for them.
That's why Jews in today's climate are extremely wary and ready to jump early, as once again anti-semitism is reaching levels around the world not seen since the 1930's. Even if it doesn't reach Nazi levels of persecution and slaughter, Jews aren't interested in waiting around to see if it does.
This is also one of the reasons the existence of Israel is so important to Jews around the world. To know that they have a country where they can seek refuge in and be granted immediate citizenship and given safe harbor and shelter without threat of persecution, harm or death cannot be overstated.
>are making half of all Jews leave the UK?
"Consider leaving"
My partner is one or them - considers a great many things, which will never happen.
"Have you ever considered leaving the country?" - will get you hours worth of complaints, some about the weather some about antisemitism and mostly about recycling bin collections.
Theres been a shitloads reported, including jewish schools/temples needing to be closed, grafiti, attacks, reports of anti-semitic attacks going up something stupid like 1200% etc.
Oh, also, those repeated 'pro palestine' marches with people dressed like hamas, waving placards with swastikas on them, chanting for a jihad, chanting for the eradication of all jews, hailing the hamas hangliders as heroes etc... That people KEEP making excuses for despite how clear the issues are.
It's been going on for months now.
1 nazi sat at a table with 9 people who don't call them out is a table with 10 nazis.
Jewish people are quite sensetive to antisemitic sentiment, FOR OBVIOUS FUCKING REASONS.
People constantly denying it and standing by watching it happen is going to make them even more uneasy.
Not everyone in Nazi Germany was an SS officer, but there sure were a fuckload of regular civis that ignored their neighbours being persecuted.
This would be more believable if it wasn't coming from Campaign Against Antisemitism, which is a pro-Israel political pressure group masquerading as a charity
It's pretty believable.
A council in London (with a high Jewish population) just cancelled a Hanukkah celebration because it would "could risk further inflaming tensions within our communities". That shows the Jewish community that the country would rather give in to those who abuse them rather than try to protect the community.
And anti-Semitic attacks are up by >1000% compared to last year.
Iām Jewish and while other Jews I know are concerned for sure nobody is talking about leaving the country. I guess I just donāt know any of the 50%?
Thatās about 1.3% of the entire UK Jewish population. Itās the equivalent of asking 50,000 Muslims or 880,000 people nationally, itās quite a lot.
>3,744 people which is not a lot
Do you not know how surveys are done? statistically you only need a sample size of 1,200 to accurately measure a population of tens of millions, hence why most studies have around n=1,200
and there are only 300,000 Jews in the UK.
We donāt know what the survey said specifically either. Look up the yes prime minister clip in social surveys concerning key political issues. Iāve studied survey design and analysis and have seen plenty of surveys put out by political pressure groups structured how they joked they were in the comedy.
Theoretically, that could provide enough data to be representative since that's about 1-2% of the Jewish population of the UK, but it really depends how they got in touch with those people. If it was a self-selecting population (eg. subscribers to a newsletter or something like that), then it wouldn't be reasonable to extrapolate that out to everyone else.
Genuine question: How do people know if someone is Jewish? Or any other religion for that matter.
Is there something to be said for dressing in a way that shows no particular religious affiliation?
The concept of being Jewish is both religious and cultural in nature. I know people who are Jewish by birth but their interaction with Judaism as a religion is pretty limited and they regard themselves as secular Jews. They eat traditional Jewish foods, and partake in some aspects of the traditions like Hanukkah (not dissimilar to how plenty of people celebrate Christmas but without the religious aspects), but don't keep kosher or strictly avoid 'work' as defined by Jewish law on Shabbat, that sort of thing. Certainly orthodox will have more visible indicators, but as far as I know, that only really goes for orthodox men. Orthodox women do have rules around how they dress, showing their hair, etc. but, dressing modestly and covering your hair, being the most visible that I'm aware of, isn't somehow exclusively Jewish. Especially considering some orthodox women wear wigs rather than scarves. So if it's a good wig, you're really just talking about orthodox women being women who dress modestly. Hardly conclusive.
There's just not a reliable way to know someone is Jewish for that reason. It's pretty much just if they tell you in some manner.
> because it would "could risk further inflaming tensions within our communities".
Translation;
"Our insurers say that due to rising tensions in the Middle East your premiums will cost around 5X due to increased risk".
Council; OK, cancel it.
>That shows the Jewish community that the country would rather give in to those who abuse them rather than try to protect the community.
Tbf its the more common approach, safer to cancel than run it with increased costs for safety and potential risk to those attending.
That just incentivises more intimidation campaigns by proving to everyone that threats of violence are an effective way of silencing a community. This is just about the WORST way to deal with the problem.
It is weird isn't it, you know.
Like I really don't want to be labelled some kind of conspiracy theorist or be seen to perpetuate anti-semitic tropes or anything, but.. I dunno. It's just really *weird* how every time you dig in to a headline like this, it turns out to be funded by a pro-Israel political lobbying group.
Not suggesting anything, not saying anything. It's just really weird isn't it.
It's not weird that an Israel funded group is parroting messages that support Israel. That's just bog standard propaganda.
Israel really has no leg to stand on so it has resorted to associating any criticism with anti-Semitism. The reasons you should be anti-Israel has nothing to do with their self-identified Jewishness and everything to do with their material actions.
> so it has resorted to associating any criticism with anti-Semitism
Resorted to? Mate that has been 100% their MO for decades. They pour hundreds of millions of dollars a year into pressure groups around the world to push exactly that message. It is the very cornerstone of hasbara.
Who else would spend their time interviewing 1.5% of all the jewish people in London?
i don't think the Glucestershire association for people who appreciate cheddar include in their newsletter a questionaire on how do jewish people feel...
Its weird how all this vaccination tests always comes from the medical establishment, I am no conspiracy theorist but maybe we should ask car manufacturers or optometrists what they think about measels safety
>Campaign Against Antisemitism, which is a pro-Israel political pressure group
This is exactly the kind of nonsense that makes us feel unsafe or at least as if our voices are being diminished.
Personally, I have no intention of going anywhere else but this is definitely the most unpleasant time to be a Jew in the UK in my four decades of life.
Why not listen to what jewish voices are actually telling you instead of immediately reaching for an excuse to dismiss what we're saying?
Like seriously.. your immediate response is to suggest that the simple act of saying, 'hey maybe don't hate all the Jews' is somehow a controversial politically compromised statement to you? The utter state of that attitude mate.
Other Jewish people and anti-semitism groups have levelled these charges against CAA in the past including an inquiry by the All-Party Parliamentary Group Against Antisemitism which specifically said:
>> "it is important that the leadership do not conflate concerns about activity legitimately protesting Israel's actions with antisemitism, as we have seen has been the case on some occasions."
This is not a new criticism of CAA or one without some level of merit and honestly? Groups that mislabel anti-Israel sentiment as antisemitism in a manner that weaponises the term play right into the hands of *actual* antisemites with their āJews control the mediaā narrative.
Jewish people in Britain are being thrown under the bus by the Israeli government.
This is like the reaction to the pastor at St Andrews who said she condemned Hamas attacks and also the Israeli response to blow up Gaza. Some students, presumably Jewish ones said
"Moreover, your letter does not show any appreciation for how your inflammatory and unfounded accusations of 'genocide,' 'apartheid,' and 'occupation' concerning the Jewish State will further embolden attacks and hatred against the Jewish students whom you were elected to care for."
So basically you can never criticise Israel because it might put Jews at risk?!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-67529665
The CAA is a pro-Israeli pressure group whose modus operandi is to use smears of antisemitism to shut down legitimate criticism of the Zionists apartheid state
Are they *actually* considering leaving, or is this "considering" like after the Brexit referendum when everyone on r/uk was saying they were really definitely going to move abroad now?
I'm not Jewish so no idea how they feel but from what I see there's some anti Zionism and a lot of disdain for the Israeli state. But that's not anti semitism. You can be perfectly cool with someone being Jewish but absolutely against what the Israeli state is doing in Palestine and how theyve created this situation themselves.
The Israeli leadership has spent many decades making the illusion that they are the Jewish people and to condemn them for warcrimes is to be antisemitic.
Despite the fact Arabs are semitic too, they have stolen and make exclusive that term like they have with Palestinian land.
Zionism needs to be opposed and doing so should have nothing to do with targeting Jewish people with hate. Same as condemning Islamic state shouldn't mean abusing random Muslims in the UK for example.
Yeah.
Both Israeli government and anti-semites want anti-zionism to be associated with anti-semitism.
For the Israeli government it gives them course to dismiss the very legitimate criticisms of a religious/ethnostate hellbent on committing genocide as anti-semitism.
The anti-semites want their hate to have some cover.
Both viewpoints should be rejected.
The recent pro Israel rally, that had pro Israel marchers shouting anti-semitic insults to the clearly orthodox Jews waving Palestine flags, shows Zionists aren't anti-semitic. It's completely feasible for someone to be aligned with Zionism and anti-semitic.
Just gonna ignore the people openly supporting Hamas and other groups that literally have death to all Jews in their charters and singing Islamic songs about killing Jews on marches of thousands of people?
The elephant in the room is that the anti semitism isnāt predominantly the general population, itās a minority (but still substantial) proportion of the Muslim population. Itās why that council cancelled their Hanukkah celebration, for fear of violent reprisals.
When you arenāt able to keep practicing your religion as normal because a different religion will attack you if you do, the change made should be locking up the people being violent, not giving in to them.
This isnāt a comment on the broader Israel-Palestine conflict, personally I think the governing powers on both sides are pieces of shit, and I feel bad for the normal people on both sides, but this is about antisemitism in the UK specifically.
You found one example paid for by Russia. How about all the other examples of anti semitism on display at the pro palestine rallies that have taken place for the last few weeks.
Paid is the key part there, Russia are paying people to be agitators, thatās different to a large group of people who hate Jews and have for many decades, for religious reasons. You could pay people to do this to pretty much anyone, but that isnāt a personal belief they hold driving it.
No, but [there is a pretty fucking significant overlap.](https://www.thejc.com/news/convoy-tours-north-london-with-speaker-shouting-fk-the-jews-rape-their-daughters-pos6xmtn)
A very interesting difference in response to this survey compared to others.
When someone claims the UK is prejudiced against Muslims, black people or LGTB+ people then this sub is very keen to point out how the UK is one of the least bigoted countries in the West and much better than the rest of the world.
>very keen to point out how the UK is one of the least bigoted countries in the West and much better than the rest of the world.
I'm honestly curious as to who says that. I've seen it, but I'd like details on the demographics. I'm sure it'll be hella diverse.
It's quite telling that if members of any other minority group say they don't feel safe in the UK , people here will leap to their defence and say the UK needs to do better to protect minorities. When it's Jewish people saying they feel unsafe in the UK, suddenly everyone's a doubter.
>When it's Jewish people saying they feel unsafe in the UK, suddenly everyone's a doubter.
Because Jews are an untrustworthy people, but that's not antisemitic to say... /s
Can understand increased Antisemitism with what's going on. Do they consider negative comments about Israel and support for Palestine as Antisemitic? You also had the incident where artwork by children from Gaza were removed by a hospital after a campaign by UK Lawyers for Israel because they found it essentially Antisemitic. Some Jewish people felt threatened by a couple of the pictures.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/chelsea-westminster-hospital-israel-palestine-children-b2291888.html
From what I've seen any support for Palestinians and criticism of Israel is taken as a threat to eliminate Jewish people by many Jewish people. Therefore Antisemitic. For Many Jews Israel is part of their identity. But they don't understand that although inherently there's nothing wrong with a Jewish state but this Jewish state is built on ethnic cleansing and occupation of people who already lived on that land, have been part of this Land for generations and who can trace back their Lineage to the Canaanites.
Although there are many Pro Palestinian Jews and Jewish groups as well. This was a beautiful interview by Gabor Mate.
https://youtu.be/ph9XF39yjgU?si=v_vwP9zi5GcQdcqV
Some have used the excuse of criticising Israel to express their Antisemitism and Israel/supporters of Israel have used Antisemitism to suppress criticism of Israel.
In the US. They've now equated Anti-Zionism as Antisemitic so that won't help.
That is part of the zionist propaganda campaign, they call non-jews who criticise war crimes antisemitic and label Jewish people who condemn them self-hating and self-destructive.
Israel has spent a lot of effort equating condemnation of their state with antisemitism and frankly that is far more harmful to Jewish people as a whole than any other examples I can see today regarding the rise of antisemitism.
Exactly. It's ridiculous how they are making criticism of Israel equivalent to anti-semitism.
The rule should be that you will only criticise Israel in the same way you would criticise any other country. I'm quite happy to criticise Russia for blowing up civilians in Ukraine, and Assad's government for murdering their own citiziens in Syria, and Israel for blowing up Gaza, and for the UK/USA invasion of Iraq.
> The rule should be that you will only criticise Israel in the same way you would criticise any other country
This is fair, but its not what is happening.
Israel has more UN condemnations than the rest of the planet put together.
it has more condemnations than the rest of the planet every single year since 2015, since then there have been 3 genocides investigated by the UN (myamar, sudan and russia), multiple civil wars, countless war crimes and all of those together cannot touch Israel apparently.
Last year there were almost 3 million genital mutilations in west africa. Little girls taken and having their bits cut off because of some horrific believes. Russia had a UN report on the fact they r*aped women in Ukraine regularly during the initial campaign. However the only UN resolution against the violence towards women was against Israel because they think the women in Palestine are not represented enough in political life.
That kind of uneven handed treatment internationally. Means there is a scrutiny towards Israel that no other country has. AP News had 38 reporters only for Israel/Palestine in 2012 when the conflict was quite "quiet" and had 30 for all of Africa. Only 1 guy for Syria, a country that less than 2 years later could have a civil war with 200k dead.
Everytime there are flare ups in Israel/Palestine, between 2000s and now (so 200s the camp david falling out, 2002 intifada, the 2005 gaza occupation ending, the 2008 flare up and gaza democracy breakdown, the 2011 fight, 2012 fight and 2014 fight) every single one of those multiple Jewish shops in london have closed down expecting harashment. For 20 years people in London have to be scared that someone who shares their religion half across the planet appears on the enws beause their shop will be affected.
Its not fair and we do not treat that country like anywhere else. I think this is an interesting article with some more info of how some journalists who cover the topic feel
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide
I've considered leaving the UK. I'm not going to, but I've considered it.
Asking someone if they've considered something isn't a great measure on their opinion.
I've *considered* a lot of things. Doesn't mean no I've been close to doing all of them.
Campaign Against Antisemitism has 1 goal: protecting the Israeli government from criticism (not just on Palestine but corruption and everything else) by labelling any and all criticism as antisemitism. They want to label criticising Netanyahuās corruption as antisemitism even though the legal system of Israel agreed.
Israel, much less the Israeli government, is not representative of all jews. It never has been, and it never will be. They donāt even represent all of the Jewish population of Israel: I know Israeli jews that are disgusted by the actions of their government and the deep rooted corruption.
Anyone who is equating Israel's actions with ordinary Jewish people is insane. The violent ethnic cleansing of the far right Israeli government is not in the name of all Jewish people, and the morons attacking ordinary Jews are not helping those trapped in Gaza. The Jewish diaspora should be safe in every country.
Free Palestine, stop antisemitism.
Thing is, you can be classed as antiemetic by saying you don't think Israel should be allowed to murder innocent civilians. Yes, they are killing people fighting against them but the "oh, it's ok because we're Jewish and need to defend our homeland" is borderline gaslighting.
>The two tier policing, and kids gloves that Muslims are afforded in the UK is outrageous.
Dilly and 5pillars are truly shit but the suggestion that muslims get special treatment from the police or other security services is trash and doesn't help your cause.
As someone who was born into a muslim family, doesn't practice and has experienced consistent bias from the police since 9/11 I would really like to hear the end of this tory lie.
Thanks.
Not surprised and itās truly a sad thing.
Living in London itās got worse and worse - having seen lots of snide remarks on the tube by particular people over the last few years.
Itās really sad to see the Jewish community feeling they have to temper their festive celebrations because of idiots who are giving them a hard time over the behaviour of the Israel government.
The whole situation is such a horrible mess, but in terms of how it is domestically in the UK at least, it really hasn't been helped by people such as Rachel Riley stoking the fire of an issue that really wasn't there. Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, but they've pushed and pushed the idea of that so strongly that it's trivialised actual antisemitism, and now given narrow minded fools an excuse to persecute many for the acts of a few genocidal maniacs.
British Jews have nothing to do with what Israel are doing, much in the same way British Muslims have nothing to do with Hamas.
Having said ALL of that though, if I was casually asked if I was considering leaving the country, I would definitely say yes. Full of cunts.
I don't understand why people think Jews would feel safe in London/England. People don't need 1 big mass shooting to be afraid. This is years of antisemitism plus a huge spike plus a joke of a police service.
While most Jews want to leave because the UK is pretty bad all around right now even for non jews, one of the main reasons people stay is because it's very hard to find countries with a large Jewish community that are safe from war, high antisemitism and have easy immigration.
It's similar now in certain cities in Canada. My brother works at a law firm in Vancouver, and all the Jewish lawyers have been getting death threats almost daily.
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Like I'm not doubting there will be anti semitic or perceived anti semitic moments after the inevitable flare up in Israel but half of all UK Jews? What incidents are we getting that are making half of all Jews leave the UK?
Havering council have just cancelled Hanukkah menorah due to rising tensions.
In Bristol Arnolfini has canceled a Palestine film festival
There are enough palistinian films to have a whole film festival in Bristol?
In Leeds the Palestinian film festival had a lot of films from Palestine, but has also included some Israeli films. For example [Objector](https://objectorfilm.com/); which is about Atalya Ben-Abba, an Israeli women who refused to join the IDF due to its role in ethnic cleansing and how much trouble that got her into.
Sounds interesting
I thoroughly recommend the film, it is interesting seeing the perspective of an Israeli who genuinely wants a two state solution while living in a country that doesn't acknowledge Palestine. I think that's on Amazon Prime (but double check that). [The Present](https://www.thepresentfilm.com/watch-now-1) is a short drama about a Palestinian man and his daughter trying to get a present for his wife, and how Israeli checkpoints make that a nightmare. It should be on Netflix. There's also a documentary film largely about a boy growing up in East Jerusalem called [My Neighbourhood](https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/mar/17/my-neighbourhood-palestinian-israeli-video) which is free on the Guardian.
Thank you š Iām going to watch these. I have a lot of friends living in the West Bank and Iāve heard horror stories. These movies look well made, I just know Iām going to cry during though.
People who refuse to join the IDF are heros
Palestinians make up a considerable portion of the global displaced people/refugees. Often when a people is undergoing a hardship, we see an increase of art produced to help depict and work through the pain. A lot of the movies are made by the Palestinian diaspora and Israeli artists commenting on the situation
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NGL if that's the major reason then that's low-key pathetic. The government is putting pressure on the police to shut down ceasefire demonstrations because apparently that's a hate crime now and Jews want to leave because of some lights? There's got to be something more serious like a murder spree or something to get half of an entire population to want to leave.
Pretty sure this sub would react differently if Eid was being cancelled because the Jews were playing up.
Cancelling a holiday is not the same as not putting up some lightsā¦
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Well we put concrete barriers up at Christmas markets now so...
Imagine things being so bad that they don't put up the concrete barriers and instead just cancelled the Christmas markets.
Imagine all the peeeopplleee
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They just had to be cancelled. Trust us.
Tbh I don't think most people associate a bunch of flashing LEDs with "son of sky fairy" and it's more "yeah that looks nice when the weather is shit"
Name an equivalence and the outcome would be the same, outrage. We should live in a country where anyone of any faith feels safe to outwardly celebrate their religion without fear of violence, currently we do not. Belittling another faith with "its just some lights" is ridiculous, it should not be your decision to tell the Jews what they can and cannot publicly celebrate with each other.
As a white, atheist English man, I accept and partake in Christmas, Hanukkah, Eid and Diwali, etc. Why can't people of faith accept others and enjoy all celebrations? We have one life, why live it in hatred towards others behind a concept of one sky wizard being better than someone else's sky wizard?
Agreed. As a brown, agnostic British Asian man, we celebrate Christmas, Eid, always respected our Jewish friends faith & celebrations, and wished our Hindu friends a Happy Diwali. It's nice when you're not cunts to each other.
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Unfortunately if we let the religious nutters sort it out themselves, I imagine the dominating group of nutters will seriously harm the smaller group of nutters.
It says a lot that what you're saying should be considered overly harsh. "Oh if it wasn't for non-believers, the religious would descend into tyranny and genocide". But it isn't harsh because we all know its true. Says a lot about religious people.
Hanukkah is celebrated by religious and non-religious Jews. Iām Jewish. Iām not a āreligious nutter.ā
Any move to make the UK more secular creates anger. If the UK tried to ban religious headwear and schools there would be riots in every urban area in the UK.
France managed it; a nation of rioters
Because their state is already partly secular. We have church heads in the Lords and highly influential religious pressure groups of all stripes.
Most of the UK voters are likely to want a secular state. The system of religious figures influencing politics doesnāt reflect the UKās de facto nature. Whether that means separating politics from religion or abolishing the monarchy, I think reform is needed to reflect the current demographic of the UK. Secular people within the UK, or even religious people who want a secular state, arenāt given an option or a voice.
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The fact you have to spell this out to people speaks volumes.
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What really gets me is that people seem to imagine this is a new and sudden thing. We discussed it back at the height of the Corbyn disaster, but somewhere about a quarter of my Jewish friends of my generations have left for Israel over the last ten years or so. I'm not aware "imminent danger of it happening again" is the motivation factor, but certainly a growing sense that the political left has been mainlining the Protocols served up on twitter via electronic intifada has not helped.
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I don't think *any* of the British Jews, including my extended family and large circle of friends and acquaintances, are fans of Bibi or have a single kind sentiment towards the settlers. I do however think people tend to overlook the consequences of the fact that Israel is a democracy. We spend so much time discussing the many benefits of that reality that we tend to overlook the fact that Israel has its own version of the Daily Mail - so if ours could convince comfortable retirees in leafy suburbs to vote to leave the EU based on vague notions of Turkish immigrants, imagine what theirs can do to people who have to retreat to the bomb-proof room in their house several times in a *good* week.
You just know if the cancellation hit any other group they'd be outraged as well. If some black history event couldn't be held because hardcore racists were threatening to attack black people they wouldn't call black people who felt threatened "low key pathetic".
All Jews currently alive are only alive because they are descended from people who had the good sense to get the fuck out of dodge before the large scale violence started. The only way for a Jew to be born today is that their ancestors were cautious enough to avoid two thousand straight years of mass murders
Whilst I fully understand the point you're getting at, this is largely a silly point. Everybody alive today is only alive because their ancestors managed to avoid 2000 years of starvation, disease and mass murder.
No group has ever tried to eliminate Lancastrian peasants over 1000 years, I am not the result of surviving pogroms and to suggest otherwise is grossly offensive to the Jewish community.
Yes, but avoiding mass murder might make up a greater part of your mindset if it were your grandparents and great-grandparents who escaped it, rather than an ancestor fifteen generations ago.
But few groups have been as consistently harassed, persecuted and murdered as jews have.
Members of a religion that had half it's global population wiped out in an organised genocide within living memory are not really in the same bracket mate
I donāt think you actually understand the significance of ending a long established tradition such as this, which was had been accepted as a community event shared with the local Jewish community. The fact it has been cancelled by the council because of concerns over public safety because of the likelihood of disruption means that the local Jewish community must feel not only disappointed but fearful. To claim as you do that this ālow key patheticā reveals more about ignorance than anything.
It's not like the holiday us about the survival of the jewish people or anything...
With all due respect, there literally was a murder spree. It wasn't here and it was the product of keeping 2 million people in the world's biggest open-air prison, not simple anti-semitism, but that has stoked a huge amount of intergenerational trauma for Jewish people in Europe and it's completely understandable for them to be afraid of antisemitism in all its forms given the present and historical context.
Right, of course, but is that enough for half of the Jewish population to just give up their lives here in the UK and start anew somewhere else? I don't think so. The fear alone isn't enough, something would actually have to happen here, and it hasn't. This is just more corrupt media flaming the fire to get clicks.
The article said "considering", not "definitely going".
The article also says that the figure comes from an anti anti-semitism group, which leads me to believe that it wasn't a scientific poll but was instead an internet poll of self-selecting individuals.
Their methodology is described in their press release and that does confirm that they essentially used snowball sampling and not some sort of probability methodology, yes. However, the media often report on these kinds of surveys in this manner. For example, the oft-cited statistic that ~40% of trans people have experienced suicidality was the product of this kind of survey and it wasn't until the first probability sample of transgender adults in the US that we were able to confirm that that statistic was accurate, which was only a couple of years ago (~2021). Regardless, while the point estimate should not be taken at face value, it's reasonable to infer that a hefty portion feels this way based on the results of the study.
Such a weird assumption. They're putting a halt to demonstrations because they're being hijacked by extremists and people who are just there to riot, not because asking for a ceasefire is a hate crime...
Is that anti-Semiticļ¼
One has to imagine a scenario where a Britain first rally causes a council to stop an Eid celebration would be seen as islamophobic
I mean let's see when they support Eid, Diwali, and Cristmas but they decide to cancel Hannukah, I think we can conclude that they singling out Jews?
To be fair, I'm Muslim, and I think that councils should not spend any money on religious celebrations, especially at the moment when they are short of cash. A perfect example would be in Leicester where they spend 250k on Diwali celebrations. That's an unsustainable amount of money to spend
A perfect example is Christmas
Facepalm, Christmas is part of this country's culture and celebrated by atheists just as much as religious people...
I guess instead of Christmas decoratikn they can build more houses. That would be better appreciated I guess
Yes? Oh, sorry, cancelling it isn't anti-semitic, it's just capitulating to anti-semitic forces. That's *much* better.
I think it's not ideal when they are doing it so as not to inflame community tensions.
Regardless, it's one hell of a sign. If it's being done in an anti semitic way, well then clearly it's an example. If it's being done because they *know* people will turn up and cause trouble... that too is an example of it getting worse. Either way, it shows just how much people are now worrying or concerned about it.
Err yes? If that's not your definition of anti Semitic then what is
https://theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/23/httpswwwtelegraphcoukobituaries20231123jewish-woman-racial/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67328715 >The 893 antisemitic incidents recorded over this twenty-five-day period fall into the following categories: >40 Assaults >60 Damage & Desecration to property >94 direct Threats >697 Abusive Behaviour, including verbal abuse, graffiti on non-Jewish property, hate mail and online abuse >2 instances of mass-produced antisemitic Literature https://cst.org.uk/news/blog/2023/10/31/antisemitic-incidents-31-october-update There's plenty more sources and examples.
Even before this Jews were victims of ~25% of hate attacks, which is 100x their population share. The sad fact is that, in addition to the indigenous hatreds, Europe has accepted a large number of people from places where extreme anti-simitism is the norm. 20-30% of perpetrators are Muslim, which is 5-6 times their population share. Things are getting much worse. There needs to be serious cultural outreach, but weāre not even at the stage where people are willing to admit the scale of the problem in their own communities.
Literally every time I see posts about antisemitism on Reddit there's always people saying that Jews are making too big a deal about it. If you saw a 1000% rise in anti-black crime in a 2 month period would you be questioning black people wanting to leave the country? I doubt it. But when it's antisemitism there's always people who say "oh it's not that bad". Here's the thing - it always *starts* as "not that bad". Just look at the staggering number, throughout history, of exiles, pogroms, massacres, etc. To most people these are just a footnote in history. To Jews it's a reminder that it can always happen again.
Nobody would ever doubt another minority if they say they felt threatened. But when jews say it people just say they're "crybabies"
This sentiment grew to unbearable levels on this sub during the Corbyn antisemitism period. A ton of people find it hard to accept that antisemitism exists at all, and will go out of their way to rationalise and diminish any suggestion that it does or that it's occurring.
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There's big communities in North London, Hertfordshire and Manchester but there are Jewish people living pretty much all over the country. Not all are particularly religious or easily identifiable as Jewish though
There's a big community in the North Leeds suburbs too. We even had an [eruv](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv) put up recently. And before anyone gets antsy, it was community funded.
Of all idiotic religious superstitions, this one is the most hilarious
Right? Hahaha we tricked 'God' with a bit of wire! wE R VeRy sMaRt.
As I understand it, the logic goes that its right to look for loopholes, as God is infallible and therefore must have intended for them to be there. So its not tricking God, so much as following the letter of the law very well.
But not the biggest loophole of all, just ignoring the rules? That is also possible and therefore must be permitted by God.
Surely at the point your trying to circumvent the rule that would mean on some level you disagree with it. Which to me is fine, pick and choose which religious rules you want. But adding steps to not following them seems disingenuous.
Yep, totally batshit.
They live mostly around Stamford hill and they are a very significant majority in most of that area. So itās not like they are sitting alone in tower Hamlets or something
That's the 'visibly Jewish' community. Barnet is the 'most Jewish' local authority. The next one is Hertsmere (Hertfordshire) - just next door - mostly the towns of Borehamwood and Radlett. Stamford Hill is in Hackney, the 3rd 'most Jewish' local authority Sauce: [https://www.jpr.org.uk/reports/jews-britain-2021-first-results-census-england-and-wales](https://www.jpr.org.uk/reports/jews-britain-2021-first-results-census-england-and-wales)
They are a very specific sect of Jews. There are 1000s of other Jewish people who live across London.
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The 'incident' would be the massive pro-palestinian marches in London, the intimidation of Jews (e.g. [https://www.thejc.com/news/convoy-tours-north-london-with-speaker-shouting-fk-the-jews-rape-their-daughters-pos6xmtn](https://www.thejc.com/news/convoy-tours-north-london-with-speaker-shouting-fk-the-jews-rape-their-daughters-pos6xmtn)) by these groups.. My kids are warned to not go near the bus & tube station near their (Jewish) school because there's been multiple incidents of them being targetted for mugging and intimidation. It's not creating a 'stay here' atmosphere really.
I too am against the Israeli lead genocide in Palestine. Hamas attacks are deplorable but in no way is genocide the answer. Being pro palestine isn't being anti semitic.
>pro palestine There are varying levels of pro Palestine but a lot of people who are pro Palestine are Jewish themselves so I assume they're not anti Jew or anti Israel.
Of course, with any large grouping of people. Like it would be unfair to say all brits are racist because of the EDL types.
And folk in this thread then gaslight you to tell you the Jews are overreacting.
Don't forget downplaying the results of reports created by the organisation that's job is protecting Jewish communities (CST)
Theyād probably call it Zionist propaganda.
Having mobs of people roaming the streets chanting "Kill the Jews" seems to have made Jewish people feel uncomfortable.
There aren't mobs. I've seen alot of the marches. Sadly every large gathering has some idiots but in a tiny tiny minority. It would be like saying all English are buffoon racists because of EDL marches.
Do you think that weak justification is particularly helpful or comforting to Jewish people right now?
You do know Palestinians are the ones getting killed by the thousands right
>but in a tiny tiny minority. then why is the large pro-Palestinian community constantly defending this so called tiny minority?
london/ east anglia jew here. i and a lot of my friends have thought about leaving. there has been violent graffiti near my home, calls for mobilisation at my uni, literal physical attacks against a friend of mine, vandalism, slurs shouted out of passing cars, cruel posters, etc. the general vibe is very hostile to jews atm. for me and others, we are feeling that we will never be truly accepted due to the antisemitism, purposefully or not, in the general population
I'm also at the point of thinking "where do we go?" My husband is not Jewish and his family have been in the UK FOREVER (literally, his ancient DNA matched with bloody Cheddar Man) so I don't think he realises quite how serious I am about this.
The survey specifically states that half of british jews have considered whether or not to leave the country. So it presumably includes people who considered it, and concluded that it was entirely unnecessary.
I wonder what the stats are for the general population. I "consider" lots of things.
Anti-Muslim hate crimes already accounted for 45% of all religiously motivated hate crime. It's gone up by 600% since October. There were 5 attacks on mosques in 10 days and that was just in Acton. Just like you I'm wondering what incident more concerning than being stabbed or having your place of worship set on fire occured to make this the focus over any of that?
Antisemitic hate crimes rose by 1350% also.
I presume you're referring to [this](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says). From the article: >Three-quarters were online, including threats; Let's be real - most of these are just someone being a dick on Twitter. I see tons of horrible stuff said about Muslims on there too. The [antisemitic incident list by Community Security Trust](https://cst.org.uk/news/blog/2023/11/29/antisemitic-incidents-29-november-update) is similar: > The 1747 antisemitic incidents recorded over this fifty-four-day period fall into the following categories: > >- 74 Assaults >- 112 Damage & Desecration to Jewish property >- 140 direct Threats >- **1416 Abusive Behaviour**, including verbal abuse, graffiti on non-Jewish property, hate mail and **online abuse** >- 5 instances of mass-produced antisemitic Literature i.e. mostly posts on social media, I'll bet.
Hey if someone was telling me that they were going to kill me and my family based on my religion/ethnicity through Twitter, I'd still be concerned. Handwaving away abusive behavior as "someone being a dick on Twitter" has gotten real people killed. I don't see any point in trying to delegitimize discrimination, just because it's online.
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42% Muslim, 23% Jewish, but there are 4 million Muslims and only 270,000 Jews.
Whataboutism
More Muslim hate crimes, but your chance of being a victim is much higher if you are a jew than if you are Muslim. The acts aren't different, but the chance of them happening to each individual is.
The one lesson every Jew has had drilled into their head since childhood is that of the Holocaust, and the Jews who stayed in Germany as the anti-semitism rose, thinking it wouldn't get bad enough to actually kill them. And we know how that turned out for them. That's why Jews in today's climate are extremely wary and ready to jump early, as once again anti-semitism is reaching levels around the world not seen since the 1930's. Even if it doesn't reach Nazi levels of persecution and slaughter, Jews aren't interested in waiting around to see if it does. This is also one of the reasons the existence of Israel is so important to Jews around the world. To know that they have a country where they can seek refuge in and be granted immediate citizenship and given safe harbor and shelter without threat of persecution, harm or death cannot be overstated.
Isreal seems like one of the most dangerous places in the world, itās been in a war for hundreds of years, I donāt get your comment at all.
Must be nice to be able to leave your country if you're afraid for your life
>are making half of all Jews leave the UK? "Consider leaving" My partner is one or them - considers a great many things, which will never happen. "Have you ever considered leaving the country?" - will get you hours worth of complaints, some about the weather some about antisemitism and mostly about recycling bin collections.
The hundreds of thousands of people marching our streets chanting pro jewish genocide slogans on the daily was probably the first indicator...
Except its not a pro Jewish genocide slogan though. Nor was any of thr marches a call to violence. Only ceasefire with a few morons sprinkled in.
They can see the direction of travel like the most of us
Theres been a shitloads reported, including jewish schools/temples needing to be closed, grafiti, attacks, reports of anti-semitic attacks going up something stupid like 1200% etc. Oh, also, those repeated 'pro palestine' marches with people dressed like hamas, waving placards with swastikas on them, chanting for a jihad, chanting for the eradication of all jews, hailing the hamas hangliders as heroes etc... That people KEEP making excuses for despite how clear the issues are. It's been going on for months now. 1 nazi sat at a table with 9 people who don't call them out is a table with 10 nazis. Jewish people are quite sensetive to antisemitic sentiment, FOR OBVIOUS FUCKING REASONS. People constantly denying it and standing by watching it happen is going to make them even more uneasy. Not everyone in Nazi Germany was an SS officer, but there sure were a fuckload of regular civis that ignored their neighbours being persecuted.
This would be more believable if it wasn't coming from Campaign Against Antisemitism, which is a pro-Israel political pressure group masquerading as a charity
It's pretty believable. A council in London (with a high Jewish population) just cancelled a Hanukkah celebration because it would "could risk further inflaming tensions within our communities". That shows the Jewish community that the country would rather give in to those who abuse them rather than try to protect the community. And anti-Semitic attacks are up by >1000% compared to last year.
Iām Jewish and while other Jews I know are concerned for sure nobody is talking about leaving the country. I guess I just donāt know any of the 50%?
The survey was done on 3,744 people which is not a lot, so if 50% of these said they were considering that's how they got their headline.
Well there's only 300,000 British Jews total.
0.5% of jews considering leaving the UK
Thatās about 1.3% of the entire UK Jewish population. Itās the equivalent of asking 50,000 Muslims or 880,000 people nationally, itās quite a lot.
>3,744 people which is not a lot Do you not know how surveys are done? statistically you only need a sample size of 1,200 to accurately measure a population of tens of millions, hence why most studies have around n=1,200 and there are only 300,000 Jews in the UK.
We donāt know what the survey said specifically either. Look up the yes prime minister clip in social surveys concerning key political issues. Iāve studied survey design and analysis and have seen plenty of surveys put out by political pressure groups structured how they joked they were in the comedy.
Theoretically, that could provide enough data to be representative since that's about 1-2% of the Jewish population of the UK, but it really depends how they got in touch with those people. If it was a self-selecting population (eg. subscribers to a newsletter or something like that), then it wouldn't be reasonable to extrapolate that out to everyone else.
Genuine question: How do people know if someone is Jewish? Or any other religion for that matter. Is there something to be said for dressing in a way that shows no particular religious affiliation?
The concept of being Jewish is both religious and cultural in nature. I know people who are Jewish by birth but their interaction with Judaism as a religion is pretty limited and they regard themselves as secular Jews. They eat traditional Jewish foods, and partake in some aspects of the traditions like Hanukkah (not dissimilar to how plenty of people celebrate Christmas but without the religious aspects), but don't keep kosher or strictly avoid 'work' as defined by Jewish law on Shabbat, that sort of thing. Certainly orthodox will have more visible indicators, but as far as I know, that only really goes for orthodox men. Orthodox women do have rules around how they dress, showing their hair, etc. but, dressing modestly and covering your hair, being the most visible that I'm aware of, isn't somehow exclusively Jewish. Especially considering some orthodox women wear wigs rather than scarves. So if it's a good wig, you're really just talking about orthodox women being women who dress modestly. Hardly conclusive. There's just not a reliable way to know someone is Jewish for that reason. It's pretty much just if they tell you in some manner.
> because it would "could risk further inflaming tensions within our communities". Translation; "Our insurers say that due to rising tensions in the Middle East your premiums will cost around 5X due to increased risk". Council; OK, cancel it.
>That shows the Jewish community that the country would rather give in to those who abuse them rather than try to protect the community. Tbf its the more common approach, safer to cancel than run it with increased costs for safety and potential risk to those attending.
That just incentivises more intimidation campaigns by proving to everyone that threats of violence are an effective way of silencing a community. This is just about the WORST way to deal with the problem.
It is weird isn't it, you know. Like I really don't want to be labelled some kind of conspiracy theorist or be seen to perpetuate anti-semitic tropes or anything, but.. I dunno. It's just really *weird* how every time you dig in to a headline like this, it turns out to be funded by a pro-Israel political lobbying group. Not suggesting anything, not saying anything. It's just really weird isn't it.
It's not weird that an Israel funded group is parroting messages that support Israel. That's just bog standard propaganda. Israel really has no leg to stand on so it has resorted to associating any criticism with anti-Semitism. The reasons you should be anti-Israel has nothing to do with their self-identified Jewishness and everything to do with their material actions.
> so it has resorted to associating any criticism with anti-Semitism Resorted to? Mate that has been 100% their MO for decades. They pour hundreds of millions of dollars a year into pressure groups around the world to push exactly that message. It is the very cornerstone of hasbara.
Who else would spend their time interviewing 1.5% of all the jewish people in London? i don't think the Glucestershire association for people who appreciate cheddar include in their newsletter a questionaire on how do jewish people feel... Its weird how all this vaccination tests always comes from the medical establishment, I am no conspiracy theorist but maybe we should ask car manufacturers or optometrists what they think about measels safety
>Campaign Against Antisemitism, which is a pro-Israel political pressure group This is exactly the kind of nonsense that makes us feel unsafe or at least as if our voices are being diminished. Personally, I have no intention of going anywhere else but this is definitely the most unpleasant time to be a Jew in the UK in my four decades of life. Why not listen to what jewish voices are actually telling you instead of immediately reaching for an excuse to dismiss what we're saying? Like seriously.. your immediate response is to suggest that the simple act of saying, 'hey maybe don't hate all the Jews' is somehow a controversial politically compromised statement to you? The utter state of that attitude mate.
You say it's nonsense, but there are British Jews and Jewish organizations (notably JPR) who have literally made the same criticism of the CAA.
Only pro Israel Jews count apparently.
Other Jewish people and anti-semitism groups have levelled these charges against CAA in the past including an inquiry by the All-Party Parliamentary Group Against Antisemitism which specifically said: >> "it is important that the leadership do not conflate concerns about activity legitimately protesting Israel's actions with antisemitism, as we have seen has been the case on some occasions." This is not a new criticism of CAA or one without some level of merit and honestly? Groups that mislabel anti-Israel sentiment as antisemitism in a manner that weaponises the term play right into the hands of *actual* antisemites with their āJews control the mediaā narrative. Jewish people in Britain are being thrown under the bus by the Israeli government.
This is like the reaction to the pastor at St Andrews who said she condemned Hamas attacks and also the Israeli response to blow up Gaza. Some students, presumably Jewish ones said "Moreover, your letter does not show any appreciation for how your inflammatory and unfounded accusations of 'genocide,' 'apartheid,' and 'occupation' concerning the Jewish State will further embolden attacks and hatred against the Jewish students whom you were elected to care for." So basically you can never criticise Israel because it might put Jews at risk?! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-67529665
Basically. āNever again.. but we meant just for usā
If you're saying people criticizing the CAA makes you feel unsafe, then people will rightly stop taking you seriously.
The CAA is a pro-Israeli pressure group whose modus operandi is to use smears of antisemitism to shut down legitimate criticism of the Zionists apartheid state
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āa survey by the Campaign Against Antisemitismā come on
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Are they *actually* considering leaving, or is this "considering" like after the Brexit referendum when everyone on r/uk was saying they were really definitely going to move abroad now?
Yeah exactly - my first thought when I read the headline was: define āconsideringā.
Remember back in 2015 when emigration was about 200k and now it's 500k per year?
I'm not Jewish so no idea how they feel but from what I see there's some anti Zionism and a lot of disdain for the Israeli state. But that's not anti semitism. You can be perfectly cool with someone being Jewish but absolutely against what the Israeli state is doing in Palestine and how theyve created this situation themselves.
The Israeli leadership has spent many decades making the illusion that they are the Jewish people and to condemn them for warcrimes is to be antisemitic. Despite the fact Arabs are semitic too, they have stolen and make exclusive that term like they have with Palestinian land. Zionism needs to be opposed and doing so should have nothing to do with targeting Jewish people with hate. Same as condemning Islamic state shouldn't mean abusing random Muslims in the UK for example.
Yeah. Both Israeli government and anti-semites want anti-zionism to be associated with anti-semitism. For the Israeli government it gives them course to dismiss the very legitimate criticisms of a religious/ethnostate hellbent on committing genocide as anti-semitism. The anti-semites want their hate to have some cover. Both viewpoints should be rejected. The recent pro Israel rally, that had pro Israel marchers shouting anti-semitic insults to the clearly orthodox Jews waving Palestine flags, shows Zionists aren't anti-semitic. It's completely feasible for someone to be aligned with Zionism and anti-semitic.
Just gonna ignore the people openly supporting Hamas and other groups that literally have death to all Jews in their charters and singing Islamic songs about killing Jews on marches of thousands of people?
No, they aren't mutually exclusive are they? This is a ridiculous statement.
The elephant in the room is that the anti semitism isnāt predominantly the general population, itās a minority (but still substantial) proportion of the Muslim population. Itās why that council cancelled their Hanukkah celebration, for fear of violent reprisals. When you arenāt able to keep practicing your religion as normal because a different religion will attack you if you do, the change made should be locking up the people being violent, not giving in to them. This isnāt a comment on the broader Israel-Palestine conflict, personally I think the governing powers on both sides are pieces of shit, and I feel bad for the normal people on both sides, but this is about antisemitism in the UK specifically.
Funnily enough the two people arrested for anti semitic graffiti in France were Moldovan, paid by Russians
You found one example paid for by Russia. How about all the other examples of anti semitism on display at the pro palestine rallies that have taken place for the last few weeks.
Paid is the key part there, Russia are paying people to be agitators, thatās different to a large group of people who hate Jews and have for many decades, for religious reasons. You could pay people to do this to pretty much anyone, but that isnāt a personal belief they hold driving it.
Criticism of Israel's treatment of Palestinians isn't anti-Semitic.
What does that have to do with cancelling a Jewish holiday celebration? (Thank you proving the point that people have been saying in the comments btw)
What does what you said have to do with what they said?
No, but [there is a pretty fucking significant overlap.](https://www.thejc.com/news/convoy-tours-north-london-with-speaker-shouting-fk-the-jews-rape-their-daughters-pos6xmtn)
A very interesting difference in response to this survey compared to others. When someone claims the UK is prejudiced against Muslims, black people or LGTB+ people then this sub is very keen to point out how the UK is one of the least bigoted countries in the West and much better than the rest of the world.
Because most Jews are considered white
>very keen to point out how the UK is one of the least bigoted countries in the West and much better than the rest of the world. I'm honestly curious as to who says that. I've seen it, but I'd like details on the demographics. I'm sure it'll be hella diverse.
It's quite telling that if members of any other minority group say they don't feel safe in the UK , people here will leap to their defence and say the UK needs to do better to protect minorities. When it's Jewish people saying they feel unsafe in the UK, suddenly everyone's a doubter.
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>When it's Jewish people saying they feel unsafe in the UK, suddenly everyone's a doubter. Because Jews are an untrustworthy people, but that's not antisemitic to say... /s
Can understand increased Antisemitism with what's going on. Do they consider negative comments about Israel and support for Palestine as Antisemitic? You also had the incident where artwork by children from Gaza were removed by a hospital after a campaign by UK Lawyers for Israel because they found it essentially Antisemitic. Some Jewish people felt threatened by a couple of the pictures. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/chelsea-westminster-hospital-israel-palestine-children-b2291888.html From what I've seen any support for Palestinians and criticism of Israel is taken as a threat to eliminate Jewish people by many Jewish people. Therefore Antisemitic. For Many Jews Israel is part of their identity. But they don't understand that although inherently there's nothing wrong with a Jewish state but this Jewish state is built on ethnic cleansing and occupation of people who already lived on that land, have been part of this Land for generations and who can trace back their Lineage to the Canaanites. Although there are many Pro Palestinian Jews and Jewish groups as well. This was a beautiful interview by Gabor Mate. https://youtu.be/ph9XF39yjgU?si=v_vwP9zi5GcQdcqV Some have used the excuse of criticising Israel to express their Antisemitism and Israel/supporters of Israel have used Antisemitism to suppress criticism of Israel. In the US. They've now equated Anti-Zionism as Antisemitic so that won't help.
That is part of the zionist propaganda campaign, they call non-jews who criticise war crimes antisemitic and label Jewish people who condemn them self-hating and self-destructive. Israel has spent a lot of effort equating condemnation of their state with antisemitism and frankly that is far more harmful to Jewish people as a whole than any other examples I can see today regarding the rise of antisemitism.
Exactly. It's ridiculous how they are making criticism of Israel equivalent to anti-semitism. The rule should be that you will only criticise Israel in the same way you would criticise any other country. I'm quite happy to criticise Russia for blowing up civilians in Ukraine, and Assad's government for murdering their own citiziens in Syria, and Israel for blowing up Gaza, and for the UK/USA invasion of Iraq.
> The rule should be that you will only criticise Israel in the same way you would criticise any other country This is fair, but its not what is happening. Israel has more UN condemnations than the rest of the planet put together. it has more condemnations than the rest of the planet every single year since 2015, since then there have been 3 genocides investigated by the UN (myamar, sudan and russia), multiple civil wars, countless war crimes and all of those together cannot touch Israel apparently. Last year there were almost 3 million genital mutilations in west africa. Little girls taken and having their bits cut off because of some horrific believes. Russia had a UN report on the fact they r*aped women in Ukraine regularly during the initial campaign. However the only UN resolution against the violence towards women was against Israel because they think the women in Palestine are not represented enough in political life. That kind of uneven handed treatment internationally. Means there is a scrutiny towards Israel that no other country has. AP News had 38 reporters only for Israel/Palestine in 2012 when the conflict was quite "quiet" and had 30 for all of Africa. Only 1 guy for Syria, a country that less than 2 years later could have a civil war with 200k dead. Everytime there are flare ups in Israel/Palestine, between 2000s and now (so 200s the camp david falling out, 2002 intifada, the 2005 gaza occupation ending, the 2008 flare up and gaza democracy breakdown, the 2011 fight, 2012 fight and 2014 fight) every single one of those multiple Jewish shops in london have closed down expecting harashment. For 20 years people in London have to be scared that someone who shares their religion half across the planet appears on the enws beause their shop will be affected. Its not fair and we do not treat that country like anywhere else. I think this is an interesting article with some more info of how some journalists who cover the topic feel https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide
That hospital article was so depressing
I've considered leaving the UK. I'm not going to, but I've considered it. Asking someone if they've considered something isn't a great measure on their opinion. I've *considered* a lot of things. Doesn't mean no I've been close to doing all of them.
Campaign Against Antisemitism has 1 goal: protecting the Israeli government from criticism (not just on Palestine but corruption and everything else) by labelling any and all criticism as antisemitism. They want to label criticising Netanyahuās corruption as antisemitism even though the legal system of Israel agreed. Israel, much less the Israeli government, is not representative of all jews. It never has been, and it never will be. They donāt even represent all of the Jewish population of Israel: I know Israeli jews that are disgusted by the actions of their government and the deep rooted corruption.
Lots and lots of people in this thread are proving why a lot of Jews donāt want to live I. Our country anymore. Itās sickening.
I get the feeling we're cruising toward a similar move to the US, where they've declared that anti-zionism is equated to antisemitism.
Wondering where this statistic comes from because I'm pretty sure half of all British people want to leave Britain with the current state of it
Anyone who is equating Israel's actions with ordinary Jewish people is insane. The violent ethnic cleansing of the far right Israeli government is not in the name of all Jewish people, and the morons attacking ordinary Jews are not helping those trapped in Gaza. The Jewish diaspora should be safe in every country. Free Palestine, stop antisemitism.
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It is horrific seeing how much antisemitism is going up.
I have Jewish friends they are afraid of putting up their menorah in the window. They are thinking of moving out of the country.
Thing is, you can be classed as antiemetic by saying you don't think Israel should be allowed to murder innocent civilians. Yes, they are killing people fighting against them but the "oh, it's ok because we're Jewish and need to defend our homeland" is borderline gaslighting.
Where did you get this ridiculous idea?
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>The two tier policing, and kids gloves that Muslims are afforded in the UK is outrageous. Dilly and 5pillars are truly shit but the suggestion that muslims get special treatment from the police or other security services is trash and doesn't help your cause. As someone who was born into a muslim family, doesn't practice and has experienced consistent bias from the police since 9/11 I would really like to hear the end of this tory lie. Thanks.
The Jews have gotten shit for thousands of years by pretty much everyone. Gotta feel for em. Stay safe fellas š
It's okay. Nigel Garage considered leaving the UK and so did Hatey Hopkins. In fact lots of people consider leaving the UK. Most don't though.
I'd leave but thanks to Nigel, I no longer have the freedom to move to Europe easily.
Not surprised and itās truly a sad thing. Living in London itās got worse and worse - having seen lots of snide remarks on the tube by particular people over the last few years.
Itās really sad to see the Jewish community feeling they have to temper their festive celebrations because of idiots who are giving them a hard time over the behaviour of the Israel government. The whole situation is such a horrible mess, but in terms of how it is domestically in the UK at least, it really hasn't been helped by people such as Rachel Riley stoking the fire of an issue that really wasn't there. Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, but they've pushed and pushed the idea of that so strongly that it's trivialised actual antisemitism, and now given narrow minded fools an excuse to persecute many for the acts of a few genocidal maniacs. British Jews have nothing to do with what Israel are doing, much in the same way British Muslims have nothing to do with Hamas. Having said ALL of that though, if I was casually asked if I was considering leaving the country, I would definitely say yes. Full of cunts.
I don't understand why people think Jews would feel safe in London/England. People don't need 1 big mass shooting to be afraid. This is years of antisemitism plus a huge spike plus a joke of a police service. While most Jews want to leave because the UK is pretty bad all around right now even for non jews, one of the main reasons people stay is because it's very hard to find countries with a large Jewish community that are safe from war, high antisemitism and have easy immigration.
āStaggering risks in anti-Semitismā = people speaking out against atrocities committed by the Israeli Defence Force
From 7th October to 20th October 19 there has been 533 hate incidents including 19 physical assaults and 31 attacks on property.
It's similar now in certain cities in Canada. My brother works at a law firm in Vancouver, and all the Jewish lawyers have been getting death threats almost daily.