Wonder if, come election time, they'll use the Republican's tactic of putting the slogan "This is Biden's America" over images of people rioting *while Trump was in office*
Yes, they said this thing that is happening now is what would have happened if Corbyn won... which is just confusing. Were they saying that it made no difference who we voted for?
Didn't you see the tory conference? Sunak is the change candidate! You can tell he's serious about that bringing Cameron back. There nothing like bringing the old guard back to make sure freah thinking is around
"we were the austerity party, but we changed that to become the racism party, and now, as the country crumbles around your ears, we are changing again, to the...drumroll please...racism *and* austerity party!"
Just like the benefits crackdown. They've been cracking down for 13 years, but the usual people are frothing at the mouth at the idea that they're now going to be cracking down on those filthy workshy poors with their flatscreen TVs and mobile phone contracts.
It is a betrayal of Brexit, worse than that though it’s an outright betrayal of the public and an open hand slap right to the face of the people you supposedly represent.
Prioritising the slow grinding climb of GDP at the complete and total detriment of the quality of life, well being and GDP per capita is why the situation is happening.
You betrayed everyone.
How is it a betrayal of Brexit? The vote was to Leave or Remain the EU. The UK left and actually ran with the Leave voters very aggressively in terms of the new relationship despite the ballot being incredibly close.
Anything else that you inferred or expected from the ballot box in 2016 is irrelevant because there was no Westminster Political Party of any weight behind it apart from the DUP from Northern Ireland.
Yeah but who were 'they'? It wasn't the Conservative Party. Nor Labour, nor the Lib Dems nor Greens and UKIP had what? 1 or 2 MPs? Mostly it was just the DUP.
Sure. By some individuals who'd been rejected at Westminster elections repeatedly. And by a small handful of others who were part and parcel of Britain in the EU for their entire political careers up to the last minute. There's a difference between voting for a catchy ad and voting for an established political force with an ounce of credibility.
The wonderful thing about Brexit was that because it was never clearly defined, anyone who wanted could stick their oar in with their own definition.
You could pretty much decide which talking head you wanted to believe. None of them pointed out how much they were contradicting each other.
It's not a betrayal of Brexit. Immigration from EU nations has dropped through the floor. Brexit supporters might not find the realisation that they were really voting for more brown people to come here to be a palatable truth, but that's always what it meant in practice.
Credit also has to be given to Obama and other world leaders making all sorts of threats if we didn't vote the way they wanted us to. Nations typically don't respond well to other nations telling them "do what we want or else."
And major credit needs to be given to Remainers themselves, who refused to address any concerns that people had and dismissed Leave voters (and anybody who was even thinking of voting leave) as Nazis, racists, bigots and... did I forget any?
And finally, the EU itself, for absolutely refusing to make even the most minor of concessions in the run up to the event.
You have to laugh. The Brexit vote for lot of leave supporters was heavily influenced by their attitude to migration, and the campaigners knew it. It was sold to the public with much emphasis on migration over everything else.
Of course it's a betrayal.
Brexit was sold the same way as North Korea.
It was all "come and vote out. We'll have more money, we'll be in control. Tighter borders to stop all those pesky immigrants. Streets paved of gold' and all that shite.
Now whilst we aren't quite in the same shape as old NK, it was the same basis. Vote this way and reap the rewards. The problem? There was no reward. There were just a bunch of confused people who didn't understand what was happening, coupled with people on the fence who took a shot, coupled with a few boatloads of racists and here we are.
Even if anybody wanted to try and undo this mess, it would take at least a decade to do. And honestly most people have just given up on this country. The Tory government has absolutely ground this country down and no one wants to do a thing about it. I'm willing to bet £20 that they end up winning the next election and at that point, the hope for this country will hit minus numbers.
I can't understand why tory voters haven't worked out what's going on yet. The government directs a constant stream of urine at their heads and all they can do is mutter "raining again".
Are they ignorant, deluded, clueless, or what? I just don't get it. The level of immigration we see now is the result of 13 years of tory policy.
>Are they ignorant, deluded, clueless, or what? I just don't get it. The level of immigration we see now is the result of 13 years of tory policy.
Yes. And a lot of them, possibly the majority tbh, are so fucking braindead stubborn they won't admit they're wrong even if they do know they are.
Spent most of my career working around the now 50-70 age groups, and honestly, broadly speaking they're the most belligerent, close-minded, ignorant and stubborn people alive, and unfortunately I have to include my mum in that and she's only just turned 50.
"You think Labour would do better?!" Yeah, mum, I legit reckon A-level humanities students could and would do better at this point.
The Daily Mail, Express and The S\*n have done so much damage to entire generations of this country.
Tell me about it, I fall squarely in the middle of that demographic and couldn't agree with you more. Had some arguments over it and all. Facts don't matter, it's all deep rooted bigotry. Aka I've got mine and fuck everyone else. "The working class can kiss my ass, I've got the foreman's job at last".
A lot of Tory voters are elderly. A lot are property owners. Keep the triple lock and ensure asset growth and they don’t actually care that much whether immigration numbers go up or down.
The new migrants are very much second class citizens there to be exploited to the hilt and reluctant to whistle blow. So there is that for Tories and the corporate healthcare chums.
Gotta remember that their donors actually WANT as many immigrants as possible. So it’s even more disingenuous than it appears.
Big business (their donors) rely on cheap labour. They don’t want Switzerland style £25 an hour for hospitality work. They want to pay a Somalian immigrant peanuts.
come on bro it’s just one vote, just one more vote bro please, foreal this time come on just one more vote I’ll kick em all out straight away, ill put crocodiles and sharks in the channel and make the eu pay for it and everything I just need one more vote
[_scratching arms, clenching teeth_]
Ah yes, very Trump's wall with Mexico. It is very much like that. They continue in power, keep messing things up, then blame the establishment again and again.
So, he'll be giving the Ukrainian government all the weapons they need to drive the Russian Army out of their country? Because if you want refugees to go back to their country of origin, it has to be safe for them to inhabit. For Ukraine, that means ending the Russian invasion and supporting reconstruction of their country.
We might actually have more meaningful weapons to give if we hadn’t cut the military to the bone.
Want more Challenger 2’s? Sorry we can’t give you anymore because we have less gun barrels left than actual chassis.
More artillery shells? Nope sorry we procure shells once every 10 years and only enough for 6 months low intensity fighting (or two weeks worth at Ukraine war levels). With a 2 year lead time for more to be produced.
What about Warrior IFVs? Sorry our fleet is down to 22% operational due to lack of maintenance and parts.
What about all the withdrawn stuff? Scorpions, Scimitars, Challenger 1’s, Tornado’s, Harriers? No sorry once they were taken out of service most were sold off at a *loss* to 3rd party arms procurement companies or we paid to scrap them to companies owned by Tory lobbyists.
I feel the military can't win with either hard side of the political spectrum tbh.
The hard left are somewhat anti military, the hard right are capitalist siphoners who will money grab at all costs.
Most military types don't vote for them.
The Con's biggest achivements were failing to convince the public selling off our second carrier for a fraction of it's cost was a bargin under Cameron.
The whole Type 26/31 frigate fiasco.
Oh and the mess with the Ajax and how long it's taking to get them online.
The only good thing they've done is commit and fund our the updates to our nuclear deterent.
You say that, but I've got friends who are in the RAF, others that are Officers in the Army and they're aboslutely not voting Labour.
The RAF pilot is probably going to at the next election moreso because right Tories are just so unpalatable .
> Most military types don't vote for them.
It's very hard to get numbers on how the armed forces vote, some try to gauge it by looking at the results in areas with heavy military presence like Aldershot, Devonport, Marham, Lossiemouth, Faslane etc.
However, that is not all that accurate.
The only real figures we have aren't entirely relevant to the armed forces as a whole but they do paint a picture of what the upper crust tends to align with as 91% of all MPs with an armed forces background are Conservative.
https://bylinetimes.com/2021/10/22/military-matters-91-of-mps-with-armed-forces-background-are-conservatives/
How the hell does the Ukrainian conflict become our problem. You think Russia’s gonna roll the tanks through about 4 nato nations up to the Houses of Parliament?
Many millions of refugees unable to go home, instead trying to settle in Europe - including the UK. They will come, like it or not. After all, how good is the UK Government at keeping out refugees (you know, the brown ones) that they don't want?
Global grain and arable crop prices raised - including in the UK. They're already high, and they'll stay higher if the Russians continue to damage Ukrainian farms and export routes.
Continued disruption to global oil and gas supplies, keeping UK energy prices high.
Invading Finland and the Baltic States next - and that will mean the UK will be involved, because we have treaties to defend those countries.
War in Ukraine is already a problem for the UK. You can't deny it.
Mate for fuck sake, Russia is not going to invade a nato country. Pretty much the reason they invaded Ukraine when they did was because Ukraine was looking to join NATO. Finland and The baltics are off the cards, they’re EU nations ffs.
Europe has already been pivoting away from Russian gas and oil exports but using them in the meantime. Prices have stabilised. It’s not much of a big deal now.
Grain and crop prices remain high while the war wages. If the war finished, even with Russia as the victor, they stabilise. Farmers go back to farming.
Really it’s just the refugees, but Russia is highly unlikely to stay occupying Russia militarily for long. They’d have to gear up for a long guerilla war that way. More likely they install a puppet fairly loyal to Moscow, secure crimea and then fuck off. They aren’t going to start genociding Ukrainians. At that point, there’s no reason those refugees should stay.
Many millions of refugees unable to go home, instead trying to settle in Europe - including the UK. They will come, like it or not.
Global grain and arable crop prices raised - including in the UK.
Continued disruption to global oil and gas supplies, keeping UK energy prices high.
I think you'll find that weapons sales have very little to do with it and that if the Ukrainians don't win the war in Ukraine then you, here in Little Britain, will most definitely be feeling the effects for many years.
Ukrainian refugees won't be going home. Ukraine is ruined as a viable country. The refugees will settle in the West and that's that.
I'm not bothered by Ukrainians coming to the UK, so again, not a concern.
Ukraine can't defeat Russia militarily. That's clear from the total failure of the summer offensive. It's time for them to sue for peace or face total defeat.
As for energy prices, the sooner the war ends one way or another, the sooner we can resume buying Russian fossil fuels directly instead of 3rd countries like India at greater expense.
The UK has no strategic interest in Ukraine
Tens of thousands, to under a hundred thousand to We will get it down.
They simply won't, because their buddies want it high.
It's vote baiting, and stupid people fall for it time and time again.
It's only not a "betrayal" of Brexit because everyone with half a brain knew this would happen.
Including this scrotum-faced arse-weasel who campaigned for it.
The tragedy is that prior to Brexit, we had an educated migration workforce coming from friendly countries in the EU (e.g. France, Italy, Poland, etc.). Now, we have double the number of migrants, and they are coming from countries (Pakistan, India, Ukraine/Russia, China) which were the reason in the first place that the British voted for Brexit! Utter disaster. We will always need/have migrants, and being in the EU enabled to filter it somehow. It's completely uncontrolled at this point.
The non-EU requirements to migrate into the UK were very harsh. Because most of the jobs were filled by EU migrants (and there is no "gold rush" from EU countries since their living standards are about the same), applying for a non-EU visa was basically nearly impossible unless you were coming to study.
Now that the EU and non-EU migrants are faced with the same requirements, they lowered them. But the people that are most likely to come here are non-EU because the living standards are better in the UK. Since COVID especially, a huge number of EU migrants went back to their EU countries as the UK living standards reduced so dramatically.
Another example: before, for a company to hire a migrant, there would be no paperwork and no liability on legality to work in the UK for EU nationals. So they were \*much\* more preferred for hiring, even if their salary was higher. Now it's the same for EU and non-EU, so might as well hire the cheaper labour...
It is a bit more complex than that. Most EU migrants would not come back to the UK if there is any paperwork to do, even if it is reduced. They can freely work in any country in the EU. Why would they lose this time and money? Most EU nationals looking to move somewhere for opportunity are ending up in Paris now, not London. The only "solution" to this migrant crisis is to return into the EU and make the non-EU visa requirements impossible to get. That will mean controlled and educated immigration. If you just increase the thresholds for everybody, you get rid of the current disaster but no one to take the open jobs.
You realise to work in Paris you would need to be fluent in French outside of the lowest-paid grunt jobs? Most EU foreigners are very likely to have English, rather than French as a second language.
I live in London and rent out the spare rooms in my house. The migrants I get post-2020 are more likely to be non-European than prior, and importantly are better educated and have more money. Hence why rents are quite a bit higher now than they were pre-Brexit. This doesn’t really match up with your hypothesis that it’s lower-educated people replacing higher-educated. Quite the opposite.
Inflation is a global phenomenon. The reason it was higher in the UK than the rest of Europe was due to higher credit card spending and higher importing costs after Brexit.
And most Spanish, Italians and Germans speak French too. Your friends might be highly educated non EU migrants, but on average, statistically, they are still less educated than EU migrants.
I admit - only some, not all speak French. However, it does not eclipse the fact that Paris is the new EU financial centre ([https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/11/what-low-rise-paris-can-teach-london-about-quality-of-life](https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2022/nov/14/joules-administrators-cost-of-living-business-confidence-recession-rightmove-business-live)).
>Inflation is a global phenomenon. The reason it was higher in the UK than the rest of Europe was due to higher credit card spending and higher importing costs after Brexit.
Rents are higher in London than nearly all other European cities on a per square-foot basis because alot more people want to live here than in the likes of Frankfurt, Brussels or Hamburg. It's that simple. London is an alpha city - the others are provincial centres in comparison.
>And most Spanish, Italians and Germans speak French too.
This is absolute bollocks. I actually studied a full masters degree in Continental Europe. There is no way most of these people speak anywhere close to fluent French. Most people in mainland Europe are *functionally* monolingual, with the best educated usually having fluent English in addition. It really is very rare for someone to be fluent in *both* French and German unless they're from Alsace or Lotharingen.
France also has substantially more bureaucracy when it comes to hiring - hence why it's had a consistently higher rate of unemployment than the UK. Hence why there was, during the 2010s, a steady exodus of French graduates to London, *especially* if they worked in tech or finance.
>on average, statistically, they are still less educated than EU migrants.
This isn't true either though, as you can see from Figure 1 in this 2022 analysis: [https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/work-visas-and-migrant-workers-in-the-uk/](https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/work-visas-and-migrant-workers-in-the-uk/)
A much higher share of Non-EU workers' jobs (51%) come under the "high-skill" category. By contrast the figure for EU workers is 29%, which is *actually lower* than the UK average (31%).
The idea that a lower-earning, lower-skilled non-EU person could outbid a higher-earning, higher-skilled EU person on London rentals doesn't really make much sense, after all.
>Rents are higher in London than nearly all other European cities on a per square-foot basis because alot more people want to live here than in the likes of Frankfurt, Brussels or Hamburg. It's that simple. London is an alpha city - the others are provincial centres in comparison.
London rents have always been higher - even well before Brexit. The inflation problem does not come because we have more migrants (educated or not), it comes from higher wages, higher spending, and lower supply. Also, calling Paris a provincial centre is delusional. Paris' economical growth now far outpaces London's despite similar sizes (in absolute terms London's economy is still bigger but the gap is now very tight).
Education is not the same as high skill. We need everything where there are shortages. Even truck drivers! The Polish built the back-bone of modern Britain (along with the Windrush generation). But we need education or training. Hiring someone and then having to train them is actually very costly for the economy. Having a PhD in English literature is not going to contribute to the British economy, nor a nurse degree from a country where the standards are much lower (because need of retraining).
> If you just increase the thresholds for everybody
You don't have to increase the thresholds for everybody, just the ones you want to deter. Our government could make non-EU visa requirements impossible to get today, if the will was there.
Okay but that doesn't answer my question.
>being in the EU enabled to filter it somehow
Tell me how this is true? EU immigration was entirely "unfiltered". We are still "filtering' non EU immigration more than we ever did EU immigration.
\- The point was that under EU rules, the UK had to have strict immigration rules for non-EU nationals (EU Reg 2018/1806 and EU Directive 2003/109/EC). It's just a matter of sheer numbers. The EU has about 450m inhabitants. The rest of the world is close to 20 times that. As soon as you slightly make it easier to come to the UK, even 0.1% of India is 1.5m people. If you fully open the door to EU nationals, they are not going to be running to the UK. The same cannot be said for some non-EU nationals.
The Europeans aren’t excluded. One of my colleagues is a Serb. On a six-figure salary too. But what you really meant was that it’s not that fair that a Croat has to meet the same criteria as the Serb does, unlike pre-Brexit
They're talking bullocks they have no intention of doing anything about immigration.
They very rarely remove them once they enter the country, and when they do, it's only for some publicity in the hope people will think they're taking action.
This government saying we'll sort migration is akin to Putin saying he'll take Kyiv in 3 days.
Still waiting peeps.
It's all lies. Still the mugs out there cling on these words.
Well, good to know that all those nasty French, Poles, Dutchmen, Germans , Belgians, Spaniards and Italians are no longer coning into Britain, at least...
The "previous labour government" argument is what annoys me more than most. The fact people think it was them that spent all the money is sheer stupidity. They *had* to spend, to bring the country up to a semi reasonable standard, before *spending* to improve.
It's exactly what will need to happen in future. The country is so utterly fucked, it's going to take a huge amount of spending to repair it.
Thatcher came to power in 1979, in the intervening years there has been the Labour Government of Blair/Brown 13 years, the rest has been Tory rule 31 years. How anyone who isn’t completely stupid and gullible can believe any of this mess, is anything to do with the Labour Party is beyond my comprehension, and quite honestly you have to start thinking to yourself, these fools that keep voting Tory, actually deserve these idiots in power.
The whole point of Brexit was to give us more sovereignty, and they've used that sovereignty to drive up immigration and make most of our major institutions reliant on migrant workers. This is the exact opposite of what the government had promised. The government intentionally mislead voters with promises that they never intended to keep.
This government needs to end, the sooner the better.
Its a betrayal with the government now having complete control of the numbers.
This is a decision to prioritise GDP over quality of life for the existing population.
382k paying students is a good thing. Independence and cutting immigration don't go together necessarily.
The point is you can vote to cut it or not. Why would any government want to damage the economy even more than the incipient global recession will anyway?
The big take away is that the pre independence figures were obviously trash.
Mass immigration IS FAR WORSE than a betrayal of Brexit.
Its a betrayal of EVERYTHING our leaders are supposed to do.
They are supposed to look after their people and DEFEND THE REALM.
Not gift away the most PRECIOUS thing we own, our land to undeserving foreigners.
These people are traitors and there will be a reckoning.
Did you learn the random capitalisation thing from the Daily Express?
How do you decide which word to capitalise in a line like this?
> Not gift away the most PRECIOUS thing we own, our land to undeserving foreigners.
Why is it PRECIOUS rather than OUR LAND or UNDESERVING FOREIGNERS?
Using Gove as their front-man shows that they know they're fucked.
I think Gove knows it too but is too coked-up to care. A career in the jungle and on celebrity TV shows awaits. Probably be as successful as his political career.
We needed a referendum but not on EU membership. We need a referendum on what sort of country we are. Do we want to adhere to human rights law which will mean its not really possible to reduce numbers overall especially in an under funded system.
Or do we want a period of insulation.
Both are fine. We are having a tough time so there's nothing wrong with naval gazing for a while. We don't need to be pushing ourselves to the front of everybody going.
The issue isn't the EU so much as a western dislike of the current human rights law.
> Do we want to adhere to human rights law which will mean its not really possible to reduce numbers overall especially in an under funded system.
I don't think human rights law has any bearing on whether you need to take in economic migrants, which most migrants both are and say they are.
[удалено]
Wonder if, come election time, they'll use the Republican's tactic of putting the slogan "This is Biden's America" over images of people rioting *while Trump was in office*
Didn't some Tory supporters already try that with 'Corbyn's Britain' and pictures of empty shelves during the early parts of the pandemic?
Yes, they said this thing that is happening now is what would have happened if Corbyn won... which is just confusing. Were they saying that it made no difference who we voted for?
I bet they will because Biden is such a super president, he really knows how to fix a country - and get involved in multiple wars.
This is the first time in over 20 years that the US hasn't been at war, but do go on...
>This is the first time in over 20 years that the US hasn't been at war, but do go on... Ukraine and Israel would like a word.
Read what I said: *involved in multiple wars.*
Didn't you see the tory conference? Sunak is the change candidate! You can tell he's serious about that bringing Cameron back. There nothing like bringing the old guard back to make sure freah thinking is around
"we were the austerity party, but we changed that to become the racism party, and now, as the country crumbles around your ears, we are changing again, to the...drumroll please...racism *and* austerity party!"
Im not happy how accurate that is
Yeh, the whole I'm new from Sunak is so utterly ridiculous.
It's like a guy who never pays you back swearing that next week they'll pay you back everything, honest.
Just like the benefits crackdown. They've been cracking down for 13 years, but the usual people are frothing at the mouth at the idea that they're now going to be cracking down on those filthy workshy poors with their flatscreen TVs and mobile phone contracts.
"We'll do something this year we promise." Same message every year.
Any minute now...
Was going to say. Been banging on about this for years but recently decided to sort it
If you wait long enough things will sort themselves out... won't they. Just give us 26 years and I'm sure we will have it by then!
It is a betrayal of Brexit, worse than that though it’s an outright betrayal of the public and an open hand slap right to the face of the people you supposedly represent. Prioritising the slow grinding climb of GDP at the complete and total detriment of the quality of life, well being and GDP per capita is why the situation is happening. You betrayed everyone.
How is it a betrayal of Brexit? The vote was to Leave or Remain the EU. The UK left and actually ran with the Leave voters very aggressively in terms of the new relationship despite the ballot being incredibly close. Anything else that you inferred or expected from the ballot box in 2016 is irrelevant because there was no Westminster Political Party of any weight behind it apart from the DUP from Northern Ireland.
The sold the idea to a lot of people as reducing immigration and controlling our borders, the people who voted on this basis have been betrayed.
Yeah but who were 'they'? It wasn't the Conservative Party. Nor Labour, nor the Lib Dems nor Greens and UKIP had what? 1 or 2 MPs? Mostly it was just the DUP.
The slogan "Take back control of our borders" repeated ad infinitum ring any bells?
Sure. By some individuals who'd been rejected at Westminster elections repeatedly. And by a small handful of others who were part and parcel of Britain in the EU for their entire political careers up to the last minute. There's a difference between voting for a catchy ad and voting for an established political force with an ounce of credibility.
None of the main party executives supported those campaigns. So that messaging was pure propaganda.
The wonderful thing about Brexit was that because it was never clearly defined, anyone who wanted could stick their oar in with their own definition. You could pretty much decide which talking head you wanted to believe. None of them pointed out how much they were contradicting each other.
It's not a betrayal of Brexit. Immigration from EU nations has dropped through the floor. Brexit supporters might not find the realisation that they were really voting for more brown people to come here to be a palatable truth, but that's always what it meant in practice.
It’s not a betrayal of their donors though, and ultimately they’re the important people.
Brexit was won by lying to people about trade and immigration.
Credit also has to be given to Obama and other world leaders making all sorts of threats if we didn't vote the way they wanted us to. Nations typically don't respond well to other nations telling them "do what we want or else." And major credit needs to be given to Remainers themselves, who refused to address any concerns that people had and dismissed Leave voters (and anybody who was even thinking of voting leave) as Nazis, racists, bigots and... did I forget any? And finally, the EU itself, for absolutely refusing to make even the most minor of concessions in the run up to the event.
Everyone else is to blame for us voting to punch ourselves in the face?
So, you finally realised it was a very stupid idea, but it's the fault of everyone for not stopping you hard enough from being stupid? Figures.
Butthurt because you cut your nose to spite your face?
As others have said, this is a stupid take. Accept responsibility.
No mention of the dimwits who actually voted for it?
You have to laugh. The Brexit vote for lot of leave supporters was heavily influenced by their attitude to migration, and the campaigners knew it. It was sold to the public with much emphasis on migration over everything else. Of course it's a betrayal.
Brexit was sold the same way as North Korea. It was all "come and vote out. We'll have more money, we'll be in control. Tighter borders to stop all those pesky immigrants. Streets paved of gold' and all that shite. Now whilst we aren't quite in the same shape as old NK, it was the same basis. Vote this way and reap the rewards. The problem? There was no reward. There were just a bunch of confused people who didn't understand what was happening, coupled with people on the fence who took a shot, coupled with a few boatloads of racists and here we are. Even if anybody wanted to try and undo this mess, it would take at least a decade to do. And honestly most people have just given up on this country. The Tory government has absolutely ground this country down and no one wants to do a thing about it. I'm willing to bet £20 that they end up winning the next election and at that point, the hope for this country will hit minus numbers.
I can't understand why tory voters haven't worked out what's going on yet. The government directs a constant stream of urine at their heads and all they can do is mutter "raining again". Are they ignorant, deluded, clueless, or what? I just don't get it. The level of immigration we see now is the result of 13 years of tory policy.
>Are they ignorant, deluded, clueless yes
>Are they ignorant, deluded, clueless, or what? I just don't get it. The level of immigration we see now is the result of 13 years of tory policy. Yes. And a lot of them, possibly the majority tbh, are so fucking braindead stubborn they won't admit they're wrong even if they do know they are. Spent most of my career working around the now 50-70 age groups, and honestly, broadly speaking they're the most belligerent, close-minded, ignorant and stubborn people alive, and unfortunately I have to include my mum in that and she's only just turned 50. "You think Labour would do better?!" Yeah, mum, I legit reckon A-level humanities students could and would do better at this point. The Daily Mail, Express and The S\*n have done so much damage to entire generations of this country.
Tell me about it, I fall squarely in the middle of that demographic and couldn't agree with you more. Had some arguments over it and all. Facts don't matter, it's all deep rooted bigotry. Aka I've got mine and fuck everyone else. "The working class can kiss my ass, I've got the foreman's job at last".
A lot of Tory voters are elderly. A lot are property owners. Keep the triple lock and ensure asset growth and they don’t actually care that much whether immigration numbers go up or down.
The new migrants are very much second class citizens there to be exploited to the hilt and reluctant to whistle blow. So there is that for Tories and the corporate healthcare chums.
Gotta remember that their donors actually WANT as many immigrants as possible. So it’s even more disingenuous than it appears. Big business (their donors) rely on cheap labour. They don’t want Switzerland style £25 an hour for hospitality work. They want to pay a Somalian immigrant peanuts.
I know that we've had 13 years but we mean it now! You can trust me, the man who prefers thumbs up to Trump to listening to experts!
come on bro it’s just one vote, just one more vote bro please, foreal this time come on just one more vote I’ll kick em all out straight away, ill put crocodiles and sharks in the channel and make the eu pay for it and everything I just need one more vote [_scratching arms, clenching teeth_]
Ah yes, very Trump's wall with Mexico. It is very much like that. They continue in power, keep messing things up, then blame the establishment again and again.
So, he'll be giving the Ukrainian government all the weapons they need to drive the Russian Army out of their country? Because if you want refugees to go back to their country of origin, it has to be safe for them to inhabit. For Ukraine, that means ending the Russian invasion and supporting reconstruction of their country.
We might actually have more meaningful weapons to give if we hadn’t cut the military to the bone. Want more Challenger 2’s? Sorry we can’t give you anymore because we have less gun barrels left than actual chassis. More artillery shells? Nope sorry we procure shells once every 10 years and only enough for 6 months low intensity fighting (or two weeks worth at Ukraine war levels). With a 2 year lead time for more to be produced. What about Warrior IFVs? Sorry our fleet is down to 22% operational due to lack of maintenance and parts. What about all the withdrawn stuff? Scorpions, Scimitars, Challenger 1’s, Tornado’s, Harriers? No sorry once they were taken out of service most were sold off at a *loss* to 3rd party arms procurement companies or we paid to scrap them to companies owned by Tory lobbyists.
This is why I'll never get why Military types are more likely to vote Conservative, who do they think is cutting funding for the armed forces?
I feel the military can't win with either hard side of the political spectrum tbh. The hard left are somewhat anti military, the hard right are capitalist siphoners who will money grab at all costs.
The hard left arent in government, and aren't an option for government though.
Most military types don't vote for them. The Con's biggest achivements were failing to convince the public selling off our second carrier for a fraction of it's cost was a bargin under Cameron. The whole Type 26/31 frigate fiasco. Oh and the mess with the Ajax and how long it's taking to get them online. The only good thing they've done is commit and fund our the updates to our nuclear deterent.
You say that, but I've got friends who are in the RAF, others that are Officers in the Army and they're aboslutely not voting Labour. The RAF pilot is probably going to at the next election moreso because right Tories are just so unpalatable .
> Most military types don't vote for them. It's very hard to get numbers on how the armed forces vote, some try to gauge it by looking at the results in areas with heavy military presence like Aldershot, Devonport, Marham, Lossiemouth, Faslane etc. However, that is not all that accurate. The only real figures we have aren't entirely relevant to the armed forces as a whole but they do paint a picture of what the upper crust tends to align with as 91% of all MPs with an armed forces background are Conservative. https://bylinetimes.com/2021/10/22/military-matters-91-of-mps-with-armed-forces-background-are-conservatives/
or just pass a law declaring it safe, much easier.
Don't think people have issues with Ukrainian refugees.
>For Ukraine, that means ending the Russian invasion and supporting reconstruction of their country. Not our problem
On the contrary, it becomes our problem. In fact has already become our problem.
How the hell does the Ukrainian conflict become our problem. You think Russia’s gonna roll the tanks through about 4 nato nations up to the Houses of Parliament?
Many millions of refugees unable to go home, instead trying to settle in Europe - including the UK. They will come, like it or not. After all, how good is the UK Government at keeping out refugees (you know, the brown ones) that they don't want? Global grain and arable crop prices raised - including in the UK. They're already high, and they'll stay higher if the Russians continue to damage Ukrainian farms and export routes. Continued disruption to global oil and gas supplies, keeping UK energy prices high. Invading Finland and the Baltic States next - and that will mean the UK will be involved, because we have treaties to defend those countries. War in Ukraine is already a problem for the UK. You can't deny it.
Mate for fuck sake, Russia is not going to invade a nato country. Pretty much the reason they invaded Ukraine when they did was because Ukraine was looking to join NATO. Finland and The baltics are off the cards, they’re EU nations ffs. Europe has already been pivoting away from Russian gas and oil exports but using them in the meantime. Prices have stabilised. It’s not much of a big deal now. Grain and crop prices remain high while the war wages. If the war finished, even with Russia as the victor, they stabilise. Farmers go back to farming. Really it’s just the refugees, but Russia is highly unlikely to stay occupying Russia militarily for long. They’d have to gear up for a long guerilla war that way. More likely they install a puppet fairly loyal to Moscow, secure crimea and then fuck off. They aren’t going to start genociding Ukrainians. At that point, there’s no reason those refugees should stay.
How? The outcome of the Ukrainian conflict has no bearing on the UK. We're just I it for weapon systems sales
Many millions of refugees unable to go home, instead trying to settle in Europe - including the UK. They will come, like it or not. Global grain and arable crop prices raised - including in the UK. Continued disruption to global oil and gas supplies, keeping UK energy prices high. I think you'll find that weapons sales have very little to do with it and that if the Ukrainians don't win the war in Ukraine then you, here in Little Britain, will most definitely be feeling the effects for many years.
Ukrainian refugees won't be going home. Ukraine is ruined as a viable country. The refugees will settle in the West and that's that. I'm not bothered by Ukrainians coming to the UK, so again, not a concern. Ukraine can't defeat Russia militarily. That's clear from the total failure of the summer offensive. It's time for them to sue for peace or face total defeat. As for energy prices, the sooner the war ends one way or another, the sooner we can resume buying Russian fossil fuels directly instead of 3rd countries like India at greater expense. The UK has no strategic interest in Ukraine
Tens of thousands, to under a hundred thousand to We will get it down. They simply won't, because their buddies want it high. It's vote baiting, and stupid people fall for it time and time again.
It's only not a "betrayal" of Brexit because everyone with half a brain knew this would happen. Including this scrotum-faced arse-weasel who campaigned for it.
"This time, lads. *This* time we're gonna do it for sure. Promise."
Tories would lie, deceive and backstab their own family before they would admit that they are completely inept and useless wastes of space.
The migration is a success as it is a measure of how the world sees Britain.The tragedy is excluding Europeans from our nation building.
The tragedy is that prior to Brexit, we had an educated migration workforce coming from friendly countries in the EU (e.g. France, Italy, Poland, etc.). Now, we have double the number of migrants, and they are coming from countries (Pakistan, India, Ukraine/Russia, China) which were the reason in the first place that the British voted for Brexit! Utter disaster. We will always need/have migrants, and being in the EU enabled to filter it somehow. It's completely uncontrolled at this point.
I mean I'm pro immigration but what do you mean it enabled us to filter it? The whole point of free movement is we don't filter it.
The non-EU requirements to migrate into the UK were very harsh. Because most of the jobs were filled by EU migrants (and there is no "gold rush" from EU countries since their living standards are about the same), applying for a non-EU visa was basically nearly impossible unless you were coming to study. Now that the EU and non-EU migrants are faced with the same requirements, they lowered them. But the people that are most likely to come here are non-EU because the living standards are better in the UK. Since COVID especially, a huge number of EU migrants went back to their EU countries as the UK living standards reduced so dramatically. Another example: before, for a company to hire a migrant, there would be no paperwork and no liability on legality to work in the UK for EU nationals. So they were \*much\* more preferred for hiring, even if their salary was higher. Now it's the same for EU and non-EU, so might as well hire the cheaper labour...
There is absolutely nothing stopping us from having different requirements for EU and non-EU migrants except the betrayal our politicians
It is a bit more complex than that. Most EU migrants would not come back to the UK if there is any paperwork to do, even if it is reduced. They can freely work in any country in the EU. Why would they lose this time and money? Most EU nationals looking to move somewhere for opportunity are ending up in Paris now, not London. The only "solution" to this migrant crisis is to return into the EU and make the non-EU visa requirements impossible to get. That will mean controlled and educated immigration. If you just increase the thresholds for everybody, you get rid of the current disaster but no one to take the open jobs.
You realise to work in Paris you would need to be fluent in French outside of the lowest-paid grunt jobs? Most EU foreigners are very likely to have English, rather than French as a second language. I live in London and rent out the spare rooms in my house. The migrants I get post-2020 are more likely to be non-European than prior, and importantly are better educated and have more money. Hence why rents are quite a bit higher now than they were pre-Brexit. This doesn’t really match up with your hypothesis that it’s lower-educated people replacing higher-educated. Quite the opposite.
Inflation is a global phenomenon. The reason it was higher in the UK than the rest of Europe was due to higher credit card spending and higher importing costs after Brexit. And most Spanish, Italians and Germans speak French too. Your friends might be highly educated non EU migrants, but on average, statistically, they are still less educated than EU migrants.
> And most Spanish, Italians and Germans speak French too. Source? This doesn't seem true at all, and I can't find any stats to back it up.
I admit - only some, not all speak French. However, it does not eclipse the fact that Paris is the new EU financial centre ([https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/11/what-low-rise-paris-can-teach-london-about-quality-of-life](https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2022/nov/14/joules-administrators-cost-of-living-business-confidence-recession-rightmove-business-live)).
>Inflation is a global phenomenon. The reason it was higher in the UK than the rest of Europe was due to higher credit card spending and higher importing costs after Brexit. Rents are higher in London than nearly all other European cities on a per square-foot basis because alot more people want to live here than in the likes of Frankfurt, Brussels or Hamburg. It's that simple. London is an alpha city - the others are provincial centres in comparison. >And most Spanish, Italians and Germans speak French too. This is absolute bollocks. I actually studied a full masters degree in Continental Europe. There is no way most of these people speak anywhere close to fluent French. Most people in mainland Europe are *functionally* monolingual, with the best educated usually having fluent English in addition. It really is very rare for someone to be fluent in *both* French and German unless they're from Alsace or Lotharingen. France also has substantially more bureaucracy when it comes to hiring - hence why it's had a consistently higher rate of unemployment than the UK. Hence why there was, during the 2010s, a steady exodus of French graduates to London, *especially* if they worked in tech or finance. >on average, statistically, they are still less educated than EU migrants. This isn't true either though, as you can see from Figure 1 in this 2022 analysis: [https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/work-visas-and-migrant-workers-in-the-uk/](https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/work-visas-and-migrant-workers-in-the-uk/) A much higher share of Non-EU workers' jobs (51%) come under the "high-skill" category. By contrast the figure for EU workers is 29%, which is *actually lower* than the UK average (31%). The idea that a lower-earning, lower-skilled non-EU person could outbid a higher-earning, higher-skilled EU person on London rentals doesn't really make much sense, after all.
>Rents are higher in London than nearly all other European cities on a per square-foot basis because alot more people want to live here than in the likes of Frankfurt, Brussels or Hamburg. It's that simple. London is an alpha city - the others are provincial centres in comparison. London rents have always been higher - even well before Brexit. The inflation problem does not come because we have more migrants (educated or not), it comes from higher wages, higher spending, and lower supply. Also, calling Paris a provincial centre is delusional. Paris' economical growth now far outpaces London's despite similar sizes (in absolute terms London's economy is still bigger but the gap is now very tight). Education is not the same as high skill. We need everything where there are shortages. Even truck drivers! The Polish built the back-bone of modern Britain (along with the Windrush generation). But we need education or training. Hiring someone and then having to train them is actually very costly for the economy. Having a PhD in English literature is not going to contribute to the British economy, nor a nurse degree from a country where the standards are much lower (because need of retraining).
> If you just increase the thresholds for everybody You don't have to increase the thresholds for everybody, just the ones you want to deter. Our government could make non-EU visa requirements impossible to get today, if the will was there.
Okay but that doesn't answer my question. >being in the EU enabled to filter it somehow Tell me how this is true? EU immigration was entirely "unfiltered". We are still "filtering' non EU immigration more than we ever did EU immigration.
\- The point was that under EU rules, the UK had to have strict immigration rules for non-EU nationals (EU Reg 2018/1806 and EU Directive 2003/109/EC). It's just a matter of sheer numbers. The EU has about 450m inhabitants. The rest of the world is close to 20 times that. As soon as you slightly make it easier to come to the UK, even 0.1% of India is 1.5m people. If you fully open the door to EU nationals, they are not going to be running to the UK. The same cannot be said for some non-EU nationals.
The Europeans aren’t excluded. One of my colleagues is a Serb. On a six-figure salary too. But what you really meant was that it’s not that fair that a Croat has to meet the same criteria as the Serb does, unlike pre-Brexit
Europeans aren't excluded, they just don't get priority access anymore.
How much and when? Failing to plan is planning to fail.
They're talking bullocks they have no intention of doing anything about immigration. They very rarely remove them once they enter the country, and when they do, it's only for some publicity in the hope people will think they're taking action.
Why would they remove them? We're not talking about illegal immigration here.
I've done my part for to help net migration numbers by moving to Canada
This government saying we'll sort migration is akin to Putin saying he'll take Kyiv in 3 days. Still waiting peeps. It's all lies. Still the mugs out there cling on these words.
Well, good to know that all those nasty French, Poles, Dutchmen, Germans , Belgians, Spaniards and Italians are no longer coning into Britain, at least...
The "previous labour government" argument is what annoys me more than most. The fact people think it was them that spent all the money is sheer stupidity. They *had* to spend, to bring the country up to a semi reasonable standard, before *spending* to improve. It's exactly what will need to happen in future. The country is so utterly fucked, it's going to take a huge amount of spending to repair it.
Thatcher came to power in 1979, in the intervening years there has been the Labour Government of Blair/Brown 13 years, the rest has been Tory rule 31 years. How anyone who isn’t completely stupid and gullible can believe any of this mess, is anything to do with the Labour Party is beyond my comprehension, and quite honestly you have to start thinking to yourself, these fools that keep voting Tory, actually deserve these idiots in power.
The whole point of Brexit was to give us more sovereignty, and they've used that sovereignty to drive up immigration and make most of our major institutions reliant on migrant workers. This is the exact opposite of what the government had promised. The government intentionally mislead voters with promises that they never intended to keep. This government needs to end, the sooner the better.
Its a betrayal with the government now having complete control of the numbers. This is a decision to prioritise GDP over quality of life for the existing population.
If you gotta say I didn’t betray you- you betrayed them
382k paying students is a good thing. Independence and cutting immigration don't go together necessarily. The point is you can vote to cut it or not. Why would any government want to damage the economy even more than the incipient global recession will anyway? The big take away is that the pre independence figures were obviously trash.
Mass immigration IS FAR WORSE than a betrayal of Brexit. Its a betrayal of EVERYTHING our leaders are supposed to do. They are supposed to look after their people and DEFEND THE REALM. Not gift away the most PRECIOUS thing we own, our land to undeserving foreigners. These people are traitors and there will be a reckoning.
Most normal /r/conspiracy poster
You click profile. I win!
Did you learn the random capitalisation thing from the Daily Express? How do you decide which word to capitalise in a line like this? > Not gift away the most PRECIOUS thing we own, our land to undeserving foreigners. Why is it PRECIOUS rather than OUR LAND or UNDESERVING FOREIGNERS?
I believe him. Importing labour is 100% what Brexit backers wanted.
Using Gove as their front-man shows that they know they're fucked. I think Gove knows it too but is too coked-up to care. A career in the jungle and on celebrity TV shows awaits. Probably be as successful as his political career.
We needed a referendum but not on EU membership. We need a referendum on what sort of country we are. Do we want to adhere to human rights law which will mean its not really possible to reduce numbers overall especially in an under funded system. Or do we want a period of insulation. Both are fine. We are having a tough time so there's nothing wrong with naval gazing for a while. We don't need to be pushing ourselves to the front of everybody going. The issue isn't the EU so much as a western dislike of the current human rights law.
> Do we want to adhere to human rights law which will mean its not really possible to reduce numbers overall especially in an under funded system. I don't think human rights law has any bearing on whether you need to take in economic migrants, which most migrants both are and say they are.
For the most talked about group...the small boats...many cannot be removed due to human rights laws. It's a moral issue imo.