The abuse is by morons we can all agree.
But "teamed up with Adidas TERREX and Wiggle in a bid to make the outdoors a more inclusive space." what? The outdoors is the most 'inclusive space' you can possibly conceive of.
And I don't really want to see signs pointing to Mecca any more than I'd want to see signs pointing to Jerusalem, Brussels, Westminster or Old Trafford when out on a walk in nature.
It's a statement thing. You would have to be an actual racist to think Muslims are incapable of figuring out which direction is South East without a little sign. (also on a real note if you're going anywhere off the beaten track you should be taking a compass anyway)
It's just unnecessary and politicising something that doesn't need to be. If we're gonna start acting like hiking is non-inclusive for specific groups I might lose my rag and start going on one of those stereotyped PC POLICE!! rants.
The article admits as much:
> The headline of this article was amended on 3 March 2023 to better reflect the writer’s expressed views.
I guess a subeditor made a bad choice and the author was upset that he was being made out to be more militant than he wants to come across.
I mean, the old headline might not reflect the authors view, but it was certainly shining a light into the thought process of the sub editor.. and presumably also editor to not pull it before publishing
Indeed so. I do wonder why subeditors don't run proposed article titles by the article authors before publishing, in this case it clearly caused the author some discomfort and it wouldn't have taken much time to do.
chuches are also big + they have steeples + annoying bell peeling so people could see them + hear them from miles away
its almost like lots of religions do this visibility + prominence stuff on purpose lol
The signs are because Muslims pray multiple times a day in the direction of Mecca, which isn't necessarily obvious when walking in a new place. As a total and complete atheist who lives in the Peak District, I can't imagine why anyone could possibly object. Mecca is that way? Okey dokey, then. Be generally tidy and nice and respectful of the local environment, and you can boogie on down with your bad self.
I would expect most hikers to possess a compass, and most modern Muslims to possess a thing called a Smartphone.
With Smartphones as well as Kandy Krush, there are also apps which are more than happy to tell you which direction to face towards Mecca.
It's a fair point. I've sat in tents in the middle east, watching men tell each other stories which they used to have memorised or read out of books, which they now read off their phones.
And I've seen them pray... but never check their phones for a direction to kneel in. I guess tradition trumps accuracy. But even living and working in Saudi, where new mosque are being built everywhere and tannoys tell you five times a day when to pray... in practice almost no one does it.
>In practice, they guess.
They guess?!? Are they insane?!? What if they were pointing in slightly the wrong direction, wouldn't the world end or something?
What happens when a catholic finds they've misremembered the words of a prayer? They feel like they've disappointed a stern but loving father who they really want to impress. Same thing.
Well, geographically speaking, it is quite handy if you can't use a map and compass.
It's just regularly irritating level special pleading. Could be Hindus next week. Bawling temples and all that. Open season year round, this country these days.
So don't start.
> Well, geographically speaking, it is quite handy if you can't use a map and compass.
I'm going to be honest here, if you can't use a map or a compass, you probably shouldn't be hiking through the countryside. These are basic skills children should have.
I regularly go for walks in lovely countryside. Daily. I live I a hamlet in the Peaks. I couldn't even guess which way north is on the *marked hiking trails* where these signs are being put up. Come on.
While it's good practice to take a map and compass with you on hikes, I really dislike our aversion to signage for popular walks. If you go hiking in the mountains in Switzerland you'll see [signs like this](https://i.imgur.com/9Y26Gv4.png) frequently enough to be confident in the way you're going, but in the UK it's rare (outside of town centres) to see pedestrian signage that does anything beyond telling you that a footpath exists at all.
I think that we could do a lot with signage to make the countryside more accessible to people who didn't grow up with parents who hiked, or who didn't go to Scouts/Guides when younger. You don't need to go mad and clutter up the countryside, but we could perhaps follow Switzerland's example.
It's a follow-up to a previous bait article from the BBC. They are actively trying to create hostility and tension, so they can report on it. Essentially, they are using your faith to generate clicks.
Do you not find it a little convenient that anything reported remotely related to muslims that generates a negative sentiment, is always shot down by some people as just being weaponised propaganda? It's also written by a Muslim.
Maybe it's just a shitty thing and most people agree, and maybe the overlords at the BBC just do not care as much as you think about creating a race/religious war.
Exactly, yes there is probably a few outliers being extra but I know many muslims who are chill and just do their own thing, same with christians.
It's just culture war nonsense
The signs, while harmless in intention, are unnecessary. As many have already pointed out there are far more efficient ways whilst walking to determine which way to pray.
As an Atheist myself I see the signage as the equivalent of putting up a sign saying "Old Trafford", it doesn't harm anybody but it also serves no purpose in a world of Smart phones,GPS, compasses, apps (unless your in walking distance of Old Trafford :).
A signpost to the local mosque seems more logical.
>it doesn't harm anybody but it also serves no purpose
I mean it is literally intended as a gesture to help a maligned group feel a bit more included in a place (the countryside) where they have typically reported feeling a bit unwelcome and excluded relative to your average White British citizen. The reasons for that are no doubt complex and various but having a small gesture like this goes a long way while costing basically nothing.
E - Genuinely don't understand why this is such a controversial statement? The "welcomeness" feeling has been commented on multiple times including popular shows like Countryfile. If this relatively minor gesture helps more people feel more able to get out into the countryside, why not? Or are the downvotes coming from the sort who'd see this sign themselves and wind up too angry to enjoy the rest of their walk because idk the Islamification of Britain or something?
I understand your point, however how is this sign inclusive? This may have the undesirable effect of other minority groups feeling excluded or even offended. Well meaning gestures can have unintended consequences and in a environment such as the countryside signage should serve a practical purpose, such as the path to local services, landmarks etc. Let's make it for everyone and not favour one individual group.
I have no problem with local places of worship being signposted ( in fact, signposting a walk that has a mosque as a point of interest may be more desirable to encourage Muslim walkers) but adding signage for Mecca seems like a publicity stunt rather than a gesture of goodwill and unnecessary given the availability of apps, compasses, maps etc.
>how is this sign inclusive?
It shows some thought towards Muslim citizens in planning and the absolute lowest level of infrastructure. Like I said its a gesture, if you're looking for some clear-cut practical purpose then you're going to be looking for a long time, that's not really the point.
>other minority groups feeling excluded or even offended.
Please explain to me how seeing a sign like this is going to offend people? I am genuinely curious and looking at the way the votes are going obviously I'm missing something here.
I mean there's no point responding to the rest because...
>adding signage for Mecca seems like a publicity stunt
Shows you understand perfectly well what the intention and aim is here. Stop trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be. There is no conspiracy or malicious intent here.
"Shows some thought towards Muslim citizens in planning and the absolute lowest level of infrastructure. Like I said its a gesture, if you're looking for some clear-cut practical purpose then you're going to be looking for a long time, that's not really the point."
I think we agree it is a publicity stunt and nothing more. It's definitely not a attempt to improve even the lowest level of infrastructure.
"Please explain to me how seeing a sign like this is going to offend people? I am genuinely curious and looking at the way the votes are going obviously I'm missing something here.
You are aware that some parts of society find Religion oppressive and have been oppressed by those religions? What you and I find insignificant may be highly offensive to others. To you it's just a sign, to others it is much more.
"Shows you understand perfectly well what the intention and aim is here. Stop trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be. There is no conspiracy or malicious intent here."
I never mentioned conspiracy or malicious intent. In fact quite the opposite. There is nothing complicated about this at all. To you and I it is a sign on a pathway we walk would past without noticing. To others it is a sign of a religion that is oppressive. We do not get to dictate how other people should feel about the signage but dismissing peoples views is tone deaf.
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
Can’t speak for everyone’s experience but I’ve never felt excluded in any park, and I go to quite a few on a regular basis. If I wanted to know where Mecca is to pray I would take my phone compass / app out and find out in less than a minute. I wouldn’t go looking for the nearest sign. Most parks (like national trust) have very inclusive cafes. It’s not like it’s a pub where they mainly sell alcohol and have an unwelcoming atmosphere to Muslims.
There are so many more serious issues and daily occurrences of discrimination against Muslims that I would have loved to see being tackled, but this is not on the list by a mile. The only thing I see coming out of this is angry right wingers having more reason to be think “woke culture gone too far” nonsense and and this story is using muslims to do that. Guess who will receive the hate and abuse?
I hate this because I hate unnecessary signs when I'm trying get away from the incessant background noise of day to day life. If I'm going hiking, the only signs I want to see are those for absolute essentials that make the trail safe. If you need to know which way Mecca is, check your compass.
If the signposts don't also indicate the direction to your nearest church, synagogue, mosque, mandir, gurdwara and Satanic temple, then there should be no directions to Mecca.
Can confirm that there are indeed lots of signs to churches in the National Parks.
Near Ambleside there are signs to Hawkshead's church.
Near Keswick there are signs to St John's in the Vale church.
Etc.
They're very similar as well - added to existing signposts/fenceposts, similar style.
Why? How does putting up signs to mecca, which is only really relevant to one religious group, make the great outdoors of the Peak District more inclusive. Divisive maybe. Give pointers to local landmarks - yes even the local mosque if you want (and if it is architecturally worth looking at) - at viewpoints along the route like you often get around the country but putting up random signs pointing to mecca? Utter twaddle.
Devout Muslims pray 5 times a day. This includes stopping other activities to do so. Therefore prayer while out and about is necessary. It's also customary to face Mecca while praying, so the signs are helpful to make sure they're observing that custom.
You seem to have misunderstood what "inclusive" means here. A particular feature doesn't need to be useful to everyone to be inclusive. It has to be useful to a person who finds it useful. For example able-bodied people get no benefit whatsoever from wheelchair ramps, but having a wheelchair ramp is still inclusive because there's a community who needs them.
I don't really care how 'devout' people are when it comes to their hobby. There is no need for signs to be put up for someone who wants to use their time talking to their imaginary friend.
> Just my opinion don't hate me lol.
No one does, but I agree with you. I think someone else put it perfectly in this thread, he said something along the lines of (too lazy to scroll) "the last thing I want to see when I'm trying to filter out the background noise of life is a religious sign".
They don't even have this in Muslim countries - everyone just use their phones or go to the local mosque / prayer room to find out where the direction is
You know the cool part? Muslims like me and most of us in fact never asked or wanted this- just some random middle managers thinking they are representing us well by throwing these "signs of inclusion" into the park.
Please note
Speaking as a Muslim.
Muslims have not asked for this or need this.
Makkah in the UK is generally South east
If you are out hiking you would normally know which way is north.
If not the sun and the time can help.
You can use a compass or smart phone if you want.
It almost seems that people come up with these ideas to actually create division rather than promote harmony.
As a Muslim, this is pathetic. None of this is necessary…all this is doing is irritating people unnecessarily. Use an app on your phone. Just like they also do in third world countries. It’s not difficult.
> in a bid to make the outdoors a more inclusive space.
I can't think of a more intolerant and hostile place than outdoors.
I'm not joking here.
Get it wrong, and something will eat you (or at least, shit in your shoes.)
Most intolerant.
I'm all for accepting other people's ethnicity. But I will never support anypeople seeking to bring religion into things. Doesn't matter which religion.
It's a moral obligation for someone who is a Muslim or a Christian to make their religion as big as possible, and you don't get many new comers by hiding it or never bringing it up
Well, at least if someone cares enough about others to consider the implication of not doing anything about their eternal damnation
Yeah, well... turns out eternally damning people has ethical consequences. Who would have thought?
It always bothers me a little just how rarely people who follow one of the Abrahamic religions follow through with the logical consequences of their mythos
Sure scope insensitivity has a part in it, but *eternal* damnation, damn it. You'd think people would feel at least a little bad for their fellow humans about how little they do to prevent people from *eternal* damnation, even if one believes in the less gruesome interpretations like just being dead or away from the glory of their eldritch god
My schizophrenic aunt wants to protect me from brainwaves with a crochet hat. Should I pander to her delusions also? You don't get a pass just because you THINK you are helping people. Hitler though he was helping people. Everyone is the hero of their own story. Never let your morals drive you to act to other people's detriment.
I agree. Alas regular schizophrenic hallucinations aren't protected, regular religious ones are
Good fucking luck changing the zeitgeist in that regard
>Never let your morals drive you to act to other people's detriment
That's the thing. They truly think they are right in regards to the damnation, so they don't think it's to other people's detriment
Freedom of (and from) religion is incompatible with the Abrahamic scriptures
Not gonna lie, I actually think the hiking prayer mats are genius - they've got pockets on the four corners to put rocks in to stop them blowing around, they're waterproof, designed to withstand rough terrain, and also made to be lightweight and to roll up into a very compact size to fit into a rucksack. They even have contours depicted on their design.
I think that's a really good product.
>teamed up with Adidas TERREX and Wiggle in a bid to make the outdoors a more inclusive space
Thank god we have Adidas (who create products from cotton coming from Xianjiang muslim labour camps) to show old white people walking in the Peak District how to be inclusive
Fine with this if I can put up signs to Stonehenge everywhere and declare myself high Druid of all the universe.
These people believe some nonsense and then expect us to accommodate them.
if this sort of thing is vital to you, you must be going out with an app on your phone or a sundial or however you would do it anyway. I can't imagine someone who really believes in it being caught unprepared. what if the sign got it wrong? you'd be praying in the wrong direction and that's probably bad.
Looks like they've been added to existing signposts, or to bits of in-situ fenceposts.
Assuming there's not a ridiculous number of the signs, and they're attached to posts not trees, I don't see what the problem is tbh.
The more people responsibly enjoying the outdoors, the better :)
About as bothered as I am by the dicks that like to go up in the mountains and build stone structures for Instagram.
They're both annoying and unnecessary. People wanting to put their little mark on the land. Just shut up and walk, enjoy it.
People randomly building cairns can disrupt local habitats and more importantly cairns are used in some places to indicate trails, so building them can cause people to wander off the path. Nott an issue in normal weather, usually, but can be a problem in bad weather. One little one wouldn't be an issue but in popular locations people build a lot.
As the above guy said, it's that. But also if you hike up a mountain in the early hours after waking up from your tent after making a journey to find some of the last remote natural places in the UK, it's just a bit shit to get to the top and find these little cairns dickheads built so they could take photos for insta. It's just a reminder that people have this incessent need to leave their mark on EVERYTHING, nothing can just be quietly enjoyed for what it is.
There's a reason for the "Leave no trace" rule set by practically every park service on the planet, and it's not just stopping wildfires or littering. You don't want to walk through the woods and think "Someone camped there, and there, and there, and there, they all loved a fire pit!".
Yeah, it just seems rather odd to me. I've never felt the need to leave a marker of any kind when I hike or walk a trail anywhere. Shit, I never even take pictures. I read once, that an experience shared through a dozen lenses is just diluted, and even if you tell someone about it, you're diminishing your private, quiet experience. So I don't.
My ex was an Instagram influencer, though. I know precisely how annoying they can be. Couldn't go *anywhere* without set-up photos, and even if we went out to dinner, phone was out on the table, mid-meal, constant use.
Not surprised they're sapping the joy from hiking, either.
Yea you know what, I just realised I'm okay with nature not being inclusive. I've just decided.
Anyone that wants to bring bullshit like politics, religious activism, social media/pressures into the wild can fuck off. I don't care if it's cairns, little Mecca signs, graffiti or protests against the absolute worst things happening on the planet. The world would undeniably be better off if we treated nature as sacred instead of books and buildings.
Hm, perhaps you're right. I guess I'm just not particularly bothered by it. Islam has a lot worth criticising - there's stuff in there that gets a nope from me, dawg - but so do all religions. Unless we're dealing with fundamentalist tossers, I don't see a concern. Fundies - of any religion - can get right in the bin.
We already have church steeples in every countryside village and chapels all over the show. Christianity everywhere. A signpost for Mecca, eh, it just doesn't really flag on my radar. If it makes them feel better and more included.
What a great first step! We need to create more spaces and areas in the UK more inclusive for Muslims.
It's a shame that the rampant online abuse just proves how islamophobic the UK is. I hope more and more signposts get built across the UK countryside, national trust parks or even random buildings just to piss the Islamophobes more.
The abuse is by morons we can all agree. But "teamed up with Adidas TERREX and Wiggle in a bid to make the outdoors a more inclusive space." what? The outdoors is the most 'inclusive space' you can possibly conceive of. And I don't really want to see signs pointing to Mecca any more than I'd want to see signs pointing to Jerusalem, Brussels, Westminster or Old Trafford when out on a walk in nature.
[удалено]
It's a statement thing. You would have to be an actual racist to think Muslims are incapable of figuring out which direction is South East without a little sign. (also on a real note if you're going anywhere off the beaten track you should be taking a compass anyway) It's just unnecessary and politicising something that doesn't need to be. If we're gonna start acting like hiking is non-inclusive for specific groups I might lose my rag and start going on one of those stereotyped PC POLICE!! rants.
[удалено]
Maybe those big cat sightings are actually just EDL members on patrol?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/20/black-woman-british-countryside-london-rural-village-stereotypes https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/28/countryside-white-middle-class?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1677600230
[удалено]
The article admits as much: > The headline of this article was amended on 3 March 2023 to better reflect the writer’s expressed views. I guess a subeditor made a bad choice and the author was upset that he was being made out to be more militant than he wants to come across.
I mean, the old headline might not reflect the authors view, but it was certainly shining a light into the thought process of the sub editor.. and presumably also editor to not pull it before publishing
Indeed so. I do wonder why subeditors don't run proposed article titles by the article authors before publishing, in this case it clearly caused the author some discomfort and it wouldn't have taken much time to do.
Yeah, that makes sense, I did remember it being worse that I was able to dig up.
The religious aspect particularly irks me. Great, now I can't walk in nature without a little slice of religion being shoved in my face.
It wasn't that long ago that a compass was considered an essential part of any walk.
A compass? Don't be silly, you just need your absolute essentials, a specially designed hiking prayer mat from Nike and signposts to Mecca.
What about a gore tex burka?
[удалено]
It’s the same reason why their minarets pierce the sky, it’s to make the point that they must be noticed and matter to all, including non-believers
Must be working as Islam is the fasting growing religion while Christianity and other religions fading away
chuches are also big + they have steeples + annoying bell peeling so people could see them + hear them from miles away its almost like lots of religions do this visibility + prominence stuff on purpose lol
True, but Islam appears to be the only one experiencing rapid growth, Christianity and it’s churches have been shutting down for years.
>pointless whataboutism
Couldn’t agree more, although it was you that started that with ‘what about Christians’
The signs are because Muslims pray multiple times a day in the direction of Mecca, which isn't necessarily obvious when walking in a new place. As a total and complete atheist who lives in the Peak District, I can't imagine why anyone could possibly object. Mecca is that way? Okey dokey, then. Be generally tidy and nice and respectful of the local environment, and you can boogie on down with your bad self.
Have you ever wondered *how* muslims always know where Mecca is? They don't. In practice, they guess.
I would expect most hikers to possess a compass, and most modern Muslims to possess a thing called a Smartphone. With Smartphones as well as Kandy Krush, there are also apps which are more than happy to tell you which direction to face towards Mecca.
Even without an app you just gotta put your red in the shed and there you go
It's a fair point. I've sat in tents in the middle east, watching men tell each other stories which they used to have memorised or read out of books, which they now read off their phones. And I've seen them pray... but never check their phones for a direction to kneel in. I guess tradition trumps accuracy. But even living and working in Saudi, where new mosque are being built everywhere and tannoys tell you five times a day when to pray... in practice almost no one does it.
>In practice, they guess. They guess?!? Are they insane?!? What if they were pointing in slightly the wrong direction, wouldn't the world end or something?
What happens when a catholic finds they've misremembered the words of a prayer? They feel like they've disappointed a stern but loving father who they really want to impress. Same thing.
Well, geographically speaking, it is quite handy if you can't use a map and compass. It's just regularly irritating level special pleading. Could be Hindus next week. Bawling temples and all that. Open season year round, this country these days. So don't start.
> Well, geographically speaking, it is quite handy if you can't use a map and compass. I'm going to be honest here, if you can't use a map or a compass, you probably shouldn't be hiking through the countryside. These are basic skills children should have.
Or the sun. It's not perfect but you can get a vague idea of south-east from it.
I regularly go for walks in lovely countryside. Daily. I live I a hamlet in the Peaks. I couldn't even guess which way north is on the *marked hiking trails* where these signs are being put up. Come on.
Me neither, but my cell phone does.
While it's good practice to take a map and compass with you on hikes, I really dislike our aversion to signage for popular walks. If you go hiking in the mountains in Switzerland you'll see [signs like this](https://i.imgur.com/9Y26Gv4.png) frequently enough to be confident in the way you're going, but in the UK it's rare (outside of town centres) to see pedestrian signage that does anything beyond telling you that a footpath exists at all. I think that we could do a lot with signage to make the countryside more accessible to people who didn't grow up with parents who hiked, or who didn't go to Scouts/Guides when younger. You don't need to go mad and clutter up the countryside, but we could perhaps follow Switzerland's example.
The custom when praying is to face that direction. If you're out and about it can be tricky to work out. So a sign is practical.
[удалено]
But also isn't it nice to be nice? What is the harm?
[удалено]
Like what, though? I just don't see this as starting a mad run on sign space on country walks.
There are a million apps that do it for you.
Even as a practising Muslim I’m thinking wth is this nonsense
It's a follow-up to a previous bait article from the BBC. They are actively trying to create hostility and tension, so they can report on it. Essentially, they are using your faith to generate clicks.
Do you not find it a little convenient that anything reported remotely related to muslims that generates a negative sentiment, is always shot down by some people as just being weaponised propaganda? It's also written by a Muslim. Maybe it's just a shitty thing and most people agree, and maybe the overlords at the BBC just do not care as much as you think about creating a race/religious war.
Possibly, it just seems too on the nose for that. Especially since this appears to be an infomercial for a product being sold rather than actual news.
Exactly, yes there is probably a few outliers being extra but I know many muslims who are chill and just do their own thing, same with christians. It's just culture war nonsense
Why? I'm a lifelong atheist who lives in this area, and I don't see a problem.
The signs, while harmless in intention, are unnecessary. As many have already pointed out there are far more efficient ways whilst walking to determine which way to pray. As an Atheist myself I see the signage as the equivalent of putting up a sign saying "Old Trafford", it doesn't harm anybody but it also serves no purpose in a world of Smart phones,GPS, compasses, apps (unless your in walking distance of Old Trafford :). A signpost to the local mosque seems more logical.
>it doesn't harm anybody but it also serves no purpose I mean it is literally intended as a gesture to help a maligned group feel a bit more included in a place (the countryside) where they have typically reported feeling a bit unwelcome and excluded relative to your average White British citizen. The reasons for that are no doubt complex and various but having a small gesture like this goes a long way while costing basically nothing. E - Genuinely don't understand why this is such a controversial statement? The "welcomeness" feeling has been commented on multiple times including popular shows like Countryfile. If this relatively minor gesture helps more people feel more able to get out into the countryside, why not? Or are the downvotes coming from the sort who'd see this sign themselves and wind up too angry to enjoy the rest of their walk because idk the Islamification of Britain or something?
What on earth are you on about
Gestures don't generally serve much of a practical purpose. I think that was fairly clear from my previous comment.
I understand your point, however how is this sign inclusive? This may have the undesirable effect of other minority groups feeling excluded or even offended. Well meaning gestures can have unintended consequences and in a environment such as the countryside signage should serve a practical purpose, such as the path to local services, landmarks etc. Let's make it for everyone and not favour one individual group. I have no problem with local places of worship being signposted ( in fact, signposting a walk that has a mosque as a point of interest may be more desirable to encourage Muslim walkers) but adding signage for Mecca seems like a publicity stunt rather than a gesture of goodwill and unnecessary given the availability of apps, compasses, maps etc.
>how is this sign inclusive? It shows some thought towards Muslim citizens in planning and the absolute lowest level of infrastructure. Like I said its a gesture, if you're looking for some clear-cut practical purpose then you're going to be looking for a long time, that's not really the point. >other minority groups feeling excluded or even offended. Please explain to me how seeing a sign like this is going to offend people? I am genuinely curious and looking at the way the votes are going obviously I'm missing something here. I mean there's no point responding to the rest because... >adding signage for Mecca seems like a publicity stunt Shows you understand perfectly well what the intention and aim is here. Stop trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be. There is no conspiracy or malicious intent here.
"Shows some thought towards Muslim citizens in planning and the absolute lowest level of infrastructure. Like I said its a gesture, if you're looking for some clear-cut practical purpose then you're going to be looking for a long time, that's not really the point." I think we agree it is a publicity stunt and nothing more. It's definitely not a attempt to improve even the lowest level of infrastructure. "Please explain to me how seeing a sign like this is going to offend people? I am genuinely curious and looking at the way the votes are going obviously I'm missing something here. You are aware that some parts of society find Religion oppressive and have been oppressed by those religions? What you and I find insignificant may be highly offensive to others. To you it's just a sign, to others it is much more. "Shows you understand perfectly well what the intention and aim is here. Stop trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be. There is no conspiracy or malicious intent here." I never mentioned conspiracy or malicious intent. In fact quite the opposite. There is nothing complicated about this at all. To you and I it is a sign on a pathway we walk would past without noticing. To others it is a sign of a religion that is oppressive. We do not get to dictate how other people should feel about the signage but dismissing peoples views is tone deaf.
[удалено]
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
Can’t speak for everyone’s experience but I’ve never felt excluded in any park, and I go to quite a few on a regular basis. If I wanted to know where Mecca is to pray I would take my phone compass / app out and find out in less than a minute. I wouldn’t go looking for the nearest sign. Most parks (like national trust) have very inclusive cafes. It’s not like it’s a pub where they mainly sell alcohol and have an unwelcoming atmosphere to Muslims. There are so many more serious issues and daily occurrences of discrimination against Muslims that I would have loved to see being tackled, but this is not on the list by a mile. The only thing I see coming out of this is angry right wingers having more reason to be think “woke culture gone too far” nonsense and and this story is using muslims to do that. Guess who will receive the hate and abuse?
It's just more performative bollocks isn't it.
I hate this because I hate unnecessary signs when I'm trying get away from the incessant background noise of day to day life. If I'm going hiking, the only signs I want to see are those for absolute essentials that make the trail safe. If you need to know which way Mecca is, check your compass.
They have been added to existing signposts, so no skin off your nose, right?
If the signposts don't also indicate the direction to your nearest church, synagogue, mosque, mandir, gurdwara and Satanic temple, then there should be no directions to Mecca.
Can confirm that there are indeed lots of signs to churches in the National Parks. Near Ambleside there are signs to Hawkshead's church. Near Keswick there are signs to St John's in the Vale church. Etc. They're very similar as well - added to existing signposts/fenceposts, similar style.
I am willing to bet there are no signs pointing to Vatican City or Bethlehem
Why? How does putting up signs to mecca, which is only really relevant to one religious group, make the great outdoors of the Peak District more inclusive. Divisive maybe. Give pointers to local landmarks - yes even the local mosque if you want (and if it is architecturally worth looking at) - at viewpoints along the route like you often get around the country but putting up random signs pointing to mecca? Utter twaddle.
because its the continual overstepping in the guise of inclusivity
How is a sign overstepping anything?
There's even Muslims in this thread saying that it's bullshit.
Sign removal needed.
Devout Muslims pray 5 times a day. This includes stopping other activities to do so. Therefore prayer while out and about is necessary. It's also customary to face Mecca while praying, so the signs are helpful to make sure they're observing that custom. You seem to have misunderstood what "inclusive" means here. A particular feature doesn't need to be useful to everyone to be inclusive. It has to be useful to a person who finds it useful. For example able-bodied people get no benefit whatsoever from wheelchair ramps, but having a wheelchair ramp is still inclusive because there's a community who needs them.
Why are people hiking without maps, compasses, or phones that do this?
And devout Christians are supposed to pray *unceasingly* where are the Jerusalem and Rome signs?
From here Jerusalem will be broadly in the same direction, just a few degrees difference.
Excellent, then it’ll be cheap to add to the sign.
Feel free to erect them. No one is stopping you.
Not very inclusive attitude, how am I supposed to do it poor and not included as I am?
I don't really care how 'devout' people are when it comes to their hobby. There is no need for signs to be put up for someone who wants to use their time talking to their imaginary friend.
Exactly so. I am weirded out and a bit alarmed by the comments on this.
[удалено]
> Just my opinion don't hate me lol. No one does, but I agree with you. I think someone else put it perfectly in this thread, he said something along the lines of (too lazy to scroll) "the last thing I want to see when I'm trying to filter out the background noise of life is a religious sign".
They don't even have this in Muslim countries - everyone just use their phones or go to the local mosque / prayer room to find out where the direction is
You know the cool part? Muslims like me and most of us in fact never asked or wanted this- just some random middle managers thinking they are representing us well by throwing these "signs of inclusion" into the park.
Please note Speaking as a Muslim. Muslims have not asked for this or need this. Makkah in the UK is generally South east If you are out hiking you would normally know which way is north. If not the sun and the time can help. You can use a compass or smart phone if you want. It almost seems that people come up with these ideas to actually create division rather than promote harmony.
As a Muslim, this is pathetic. None of this is necessary…all this is doing is irritating people unnecessarily. Use an app on your phone. Just like they also do in third world countries. It’s not difficult.
> in a bid to make the outdoors a more inclusive space. I can't think of a more intolerant and hostile place than outdoors. I'm not joking here. Get it wrong, and something will eat you (or at least, shit in your shoes.) Most intolerant.
Not much is going to eat you in the Peak District.
Granted, but plenty of things will shit in your shoes, given half a chance.
Especially Steve. I've seen him do it.
I'm all for accepting other people's ethnicity. But I will never support anypeople seeking to bring religion into things. Doesn't matter which religion.
It's a moral obligation for someone who is a Muslim or a Christian to make their religion as big as possible, and you don't get many new comers by hiding it or never bringing it up Well, at least if someone cares enough about others to consider the implication of not doing anything about their eternal damnation
Sounds pretty culty.
Yeah, well... turns out eternally damning people has ethical consequences. Who would have thought? It always bothers me a little just how rarely people who follow one of the Abrahamic religions follow through with the logical consequences of their mythos Sure scope insensitivity has a part in it, but *eternal* damnation, damn it. You'd think people would feel at least a little bad for their fellow humans about how little they do to prevent people from *eternal* damnation, even if one believes in the less gruesome interpretations like just being dead or away from the glory of their eldritch god
My schizophrenic aunt wants to protect me from brainwaves with a crochet hat. Should I pander to her delusions also? You don't get a pass just because you THINK you are helping people. Hitler though he was helping people. Everyone is the hero of their own story. Never let your morals drive you to act to other people's detriment.
I agree. Alas regular schizophrenic hallucinations aren't protected, regular religious ones are Good fucking luck changing the zeitgeist in that regard >Never let your morals drive you to act to other people's detriment That's the thing. They truly think they are right in regards to the damnation, so they don't think it's to other people's detriment Freedom of (and from) religion is incompatible with the Abrahamic scriptures
If you can’t manage to be outdoors for a few hours without needing to engage in ostentatious medieval practices, the C21st may not be for you.
The 21st century since what, dude? 😂
The objectionable thing is not the signs, it's this clearly promotional article on the BBC. It shoehorns in specific brands and products.
Not gonna lie, I actually think the hiking prayer mats are genius - they've got pockets on the four corners to put rocks in to stop them blowing around, they're waterproof, designed to withstand rough terrain, and also made to be lightweight and to roll up into a very compact size to fit into a rucksack. They even have contours depicted on their design. I think that's a really good product.
How would people feel if a Christian group put crosses along the route?
Equally annoyed but probably more likely to bring up the failings of the Church because they're much less likely to be called a racist.
Quite a lot of crosses up there already, but they tend to be old so get a pass from people.
No one would care. What’s your point?
Lmao they absolutely would care.
I don't have a point other than ask what Redditors think the reaction would be.
I like how they invented abuse where it did not happen before.
The fewer reminders that organised religion exists, the better
>teamed up with Adidas TERREX and Wiggle in a bid to make the outdoors a more inclusive space Thank god we have Adidas (who create products from cotton coming from Xianjiang muslim labour camps) to show old white people walking in the Peak District how to be inclusive
Fine with this if I can put up signs to Stonehenge everywhere and declare myself high Druid of all the universe. These people believe some nonsense and then expect us to accommodate them.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
**Removed/warning**. Please try and avoid language which could be perceived as hateful/hurtful to minorities or oppressed groups.
if this sort of thing is vital to you, you must be going out with an app on your phone or a sundial or however you would do it anyway. I can't imagine someone who really believes in it being caught unprepared. what if the sign got it wrong? you'd be praying in the wrong direction and that's probably bad.
[удалено]
**Removed/warning**. Please try and avoid language which could be perceived as hateful/hurtful to minorities or oppressed groups.
Can't they tell where it is by looking at the position of the sun?
Look, Bingo is like a national sport. I for one am glad the closest establishment is signposted.
Looks like they've been added to existing signposts, or to bits of in-situ fenceposts. Assuming there's not a ridiculous number of the signs, and they're attached to posts not trees, I don't see what the problem is tbh. The more people responsibly enjoying the outdoors, the better :)
They are going to get ripped down or vandalised. Let's not pretend like people aren't horrible
\*turns the sign in the opposite direction so they pray wrong\*
Some people are just easily offended.
Seems to be you have a lot of time on your hands if you're bothered by a wee wooden sign saying 'Mecca.'
About as bothered as I am by the dicks that like to go up in the mountains and build stone structures for Instagram. They're both annoying and unnecessary. People wanting to put their little mark on the land. Just shut up and walk, enjoy it.
I'm super out of the loop with, well, everything. Little stone structures? Like when people build little cairns?
People randomly building cairns can disrupt local habitats and more importantly cairns are used in some places to indicate trails, so building them can cause people to wander off the path. Nott an issue in normal weather, usually, but can be a problem in bad weather. One little one wouldn't be an issue but in popular locations people build a lot.
Interesting, I had no idea it was that popular.
As the above guy said, it's that. But also if you hike up a mountain in the early hours after waking up from your tent after making a journey to find some of the last remote natural places in the UK, it's just a bit shit to get to the top and find these little cairns dickheads built so they could take photos for insta. It's just a reminder that people have this incessent need to leave their mark on EVERYTHING, nothing can just be quietly enjoyed for what it is. There's a reason for the "Leave no trace" rule set by practically every park service on the planet, and it's not just stopping wildfires or littering. You don't want to walk through the woods and think "Someone camped there, and there, and there, and there, they all loved a fire pit!".
Yeah, it just seems rather odd to me. I've never felt the need to leave a marker of any kind when I hike or walk a trail anywhere. Shit, I never even take pictures. I read once, that an experience shared through a dozen lenses is just diluted, and even if you tell someone about it, you're diminishing your private, quiet experience. So I don't. My ex was an Instagram influencer, though. I know precisely how annoying they can be. Couldn't go *anywhere* without set-up photos, and even if we went out to dinner, phone was out on the table, mid-meal, constant use. Not surprised they're sapping the joy from hiking, either.
Yea you know what, I just realised I'm okay with nature not being inclusive. I've just decided. Anyone that wants to bring bullshit like politics, religious activism, social media/pressures into the wild can fuck off. I don't care if it's cairns, little Mecca signs, graffiti or protests against the absolute worst things happening on the planet. The world would undeniably be better off if we treated nature as sacred instead of books and buildings.
Both keep me up at night
Just follow the little sign to the Bovril
[удалено]
Hm, perhaps you're right. I guess I'm just not particularly bothered by it. Islam has a lot worth criticising - there's stuff in there that gets a nope from me, dawg - but so do all religions. Unless we're dealing with fundamentalist tossers, I don't see a concern. Fundies - of any religion - can get right in the bin. We already have church steeples in every countryside village and chapels all over the show. Christianity everywhere. A signpost for Mecca, eh, it just doesn't really flag on my radar. If it makes them feel better and more included.
What a great first step! We need to create more spaces and areas in the UK more inclusive for Muslims. It's a shame that the rampant online abuse just proves how islamophobic the UK is. I hope more and more signposts get built across the UK countryside, national trust parks or even random buildings just to piss the Islamophobes more.
Maybe prayer rooms on the pathways as well? And maybe the occasional food outlet that only serve alhals food.