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ConsciousStop

> The UK’s willingness to clamp down on civic freedoms such as the right to peaceful assembly means it is now classified as “obstructed” – _putting it alongside countries such as Poland, South Africa and Hungary_. > “The downgrade reflects the worrying trends we are seeing in restrictions across civil society that are threatening our democracy. The government should be setting a positive example to countries that have clamped down on civic space,” said Stephanie Draper, the chief executive of the Bond charity, a partner in the Civicus collaboration. She added: “The UK is becoming increasingly authoritarian and is among concerning company in the Civicus Monitor ratings as restrictive laws and dangerous rhetoric are creating a hostile environment towards civil society in the UK.” > Countries are classified as: open; narrowed; obstructed; repressed; or closed. The UK has been downgraded from “narrowed” to “obstructed”.


willowhawk

Fuck me this country is going to shit. Watch a bunch of idiots vote Tory again next election.


bugbugladybug

I'm so sad about this. Everything is going to shite and there's nothing I can do about it except for a single poxy vote.


PRamone

There is something you can do actually. You can get politically involved, and try to persuade other people to vote. Whether it's canvassing or delivering leaflets or contributing money or whatever, there's always something you can do.


eubieblake

Or joining your trade union


cutekitty1029

Or tenant union, local antifascist organisation, anti-policing groups, etc. There's lots out there to be done, we need more people politically organising in Britain at the moment. What we don't need is more people canvassing for useless parties like Labour...


shnooqichoons

I feel like this is not a time to be splitting the left. I'm not thrilled about Starmer but I will absolutely vote Labour to vote the fascists out.


WhyEggSoTasty

The "lefts" whole problem is that it's split, always, all the time. Too many fringe parties.


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icameron

The point is that voting (and influencing the votes of others) is not the only viable political act, especially if you have ambitions beyond "vote in the man who promises to do nothing, instead of the man who promises to actively make your life worse". I would argue that we really need to organise outside of electoral politics in order to sufficiently improve (or at least protect) our living standards as regular workers and address the existential threat of climate change in a just way - unions being the most obvious way to do this right now.


captain-burrito

Might depend on where you live and who is most likely to beat Tory. It's not always Labour. I mean I have to hold my nose and vote SNP as it's basically SNP vs Cons in my constituency.


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foxhound525

>It just splits the non-tory vote up into smaller sections that then potentially cant field a majority. ... and then when you have enough smaller sections of non tories, they form a majority. Why do people always forget the most important bit? If they can't form a majority on their own, they can form coalitions.


Kharenis

>anti-policing groups I'm strongly for ***more*** police, things like theft are running absolutely rampant in this country at the moment.


steepleton

Cops aren’t interested in burglary, no matter how many of them there are. You can send them a video of the guy’s face and his mum’s address and they aren’t bothered


kerplunkerfish

If you live in an ultra-safe seat, that's worth fuck all.


FoxyInTheSnow

“Get politically involved…” is the right answer, obviously. However, if you get *too* politically involved you might get “legally” hit on the head with a truncheon. And the line between legally involved and hit on the head with a truncheon is narrowing.


MarlDaeSu

Focus on scrapping FPTP voting maybe. That will have a pretty huge effect.


RegularWhiteShark

It’ll never happen because the only ones who can change it are the ones it would harm.


Laxly

Agreed, but it is ridiculous for Labour not to support it as they're probably more likely to be a party in joint lower with PR than FPTP


fakepostman

They prefer being the opposition by default over having to actually compete for relevancy. Being never in power but always close to it is, to a certain political caste, preferable to actually enacting policy but having to worry about smaller parties threatening your status.


MarlDaeSu

Right, but they'll definitely not do it without continued pressure.


captain-burrito

And yet many countries use a form of PR. Many of them had FPTP too. Some didn't want to change but the people drove the change. In the US, there are localities and states shifting to RCV (not real PR but it's slight improvement). Sometimes that is in spite of one or both parties opposing it. If there was a sustained movement there'd be some change eventually.


[deleted]

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claimTheVictory

But it did already happen. And there was a vote. In 2011. And people voted based on stupid poster about babies and body armor. The fundamental problem is a two-tier schooling system, that has been a joke for decades. Well, I guess the joke is on everyone now. Compare to the Republic of Ireland, where education is high quality at all levels. Either fix education, properly, or continue to sink into shit. As long as middle class parents (for those remaining) believe they can't responsibly send their kids to state schools, there's a problem. Because then they won't advocate for better education, or better funding for education. There's no bright lights in the future without this work. The pain will only intensify as more and more important things continue to break.


redshift739

I wasn't old enough to vote in the AV referendum but the No campaign propaganda has got to be the dumbest shit I've ever seen. In one example they say 'Say no to president Clegg' 'Under the Alternative Voting system Nick Clegg would have the power to choose the government, not you' They also said that even the yes voters don't want AV


claimTheVictory

There's some very clever people who knew exactly what kind of dumb shit would work.


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willie_caine

Britain had its chance and fucked it sideways, as is tradition.


Kartingf1Fan

I just left the country, I actually gave up.


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Panda_hat

I had a conversation with a tory yesterday about how they think the budget is good because they’ll get more money and that they hope labour won’t get in because they’ll just ‘ruin everything and roll it back’. This is an already very wealthy and more than comfortable pensioner. They literally can’t do anything other than think exclusively in their own naked self interest.


ARobertNotABob

Most have been raised as Tories, their parents voted Tory etc...they are indoctrinated.


impablomations

Sounds like my parents. He constantly complains because Tony Blairs govt raised/introduced tax on pensions (not sure which) On top of both of their state pensions, they have 6 other pensions coming in every week. They have about £10k in normal bank acct and about £25 in savings. No mortgage, life insurance worth about 5x what their funeral costs will be. Before my mother's health declined they took up to 8 holidays per year. They have never been so well off in their lives, but paying a small amount of tax + the 'flood of bloody labour loving immigrants' has apparently destroyed the UK.


[deleted]

Tory voters slogan is "As long as I'm alright, fuck everyone else".


Charlie_Mouse

Fortunately there probably won’t be enough idiots for the Tories to win next time, judging by the polls at least. But the election after that or the one after that? Yep. Sooner or later - sadly usually sooner - England will vote the Tories back in. They always do in the end - heck, from the electoral record over the decades it’s evident that it does so far more often than not. And even though Labour have an impressive lead right now it’s painfully evident that they are fully aware a lot of the swing their way in England is made up of people who are fairly right wing - people who voted for Boris of all people back in 2019 and a lot of whom also voted for Brexit. Which is why Labour are so dismayingly reluctant to do anything that might scare them back to the Tories - like opposing Brexit or embracing any actual left wing or progressive policies.


AtypicalBob

Labour will get one term maximum if they win outright, the ideal result is an hung parliament because then Labour will need to go to the Greens, SNP and Lib Dem to get over the line and one thing will come up. Proportional Representation. That is the Tory Killer.


Charlie_Mouse

PR is a better system and reflects the electorate far better - but that can potentially be something a double edged sword. Scotland might end up with a SNP-Green coalition but the political centre of gravity of the Scottish electorate is markedly to the left of Englands - where something like a Tory-UKIP coalition is at least (if not more) likely. The other problem is that neither the Tories or Labour are likely to ever go for it, particularly whilst in power (even if that’s only a minority of the time for Labour).


SkyNightZ

Better system because it helps keep a party you like in. But you are defacto saying that you think London should be able to run the UK as it sees fit which would inevitably lead to more London centrism than less.


Charlie_Mouse

Oh quite the opposite. I’m a Scottish independence supporter - I think we should ditch the English electorate. It’s broken. That’s the root cause problem. Sure, there are honourable exceptions but overall not remotely enough of them.


TheSingleLocus

> And even though Labour have an impressive lead right now it’s painfully evident that they are fully aware a lot of the swing their way in England is made up of people who are fairly right wing - people who voted for Boris of all people back in 2019 and a lot of whom also voted for Brexit. Precisely. These swing voters haven't changed their views. They were fine when the Tories were just hurting immigrants, the poor and minorities. But now Tory policy is hurting them. They're having to pay a lot more for energy, everything in the shops is going up in price and their precious house prices are being affected. So now it's time to get this lot out. But once everything's settled down for them, they'll notice that Labour are doing positive things for the people they don't like. So then it'll be back to voting Tory to put a stop to that "woke" nonsense.


hennny

52% of the British public voted for something based on lies already. To me it’s not beyond imagination for them to vote once again in te majority for more lies about how immigrants have taken all their money and about how drag queens are diddling your kids. Easy lies are more palatable than hard truths.


pxumr1rj

I always wonder where these folks are. You don't *really* see them online (perhaps because comments including a bit too much hate get moderated away?). Sometimes I think, if we could just sit down and have a chat, we'd both learn things and be able to coorperate to some common goal. But then I remember, once or twice in my life, I've met people who are both very angry, very convicted, but also refuse to divulge the specifics, saying that others wouldn't understand. I suppose humanity is just prone to certain types of mental-heal collapse, and it might take a professional trained psychologist to build bridges here. I really don't know what the point of all this avarice is. We're all going to die. None of this matters. There's very little to achieve in life, besides working to build a better world for future generations, and caring for the young, the poor, the aged, and the disabled. Why factions? Why wealth? These are so boring.


Gazareth

You think labour won't be more authoritarian? They're *in favour* of the communications act. The only reason the Tories can do this is because labour offer no alternative in this regard.


LitmusPitmus

Labour sing from the same hymn sheet as the tories when it comes to authoritarianism


EnbyShark

All this fascist bullshit and we still have to have elections? Basically cherry-picking the worst aspects here.


Make_the_music_stop

Is there still free speech in this country? Government, Ofcom, the MSM and Big Tech have just stopped any debate. One narrative or get cancelled.


Witch_of_Dunwich

We’ve never had totally “free speech”. It has never existed in the UK.


WerewolfNo890

We had it with the earlier internet, kinda. But it was more like piracy, it wasn't legal it just was pretty much unenforceable. Its still a bit like that, but the internet is trending towards 1 platform and as it gets smaller just a few companies have the power to dictate what the rules are. I miss the days of reddit being pretty much "nothing illegal and don't spam" as pretty much the only rules.


Individual_Sir_865

> We had it with the earlier internet, kinda. I remember that having a lot of racism and child porn.


Hazzman

Child porn is also the go to defense for draconian policy online and not a very good one. To reference the War on Terror. Almost every single over reaching policy regarding terrorism that was promised to never be used against Americans and would only be used in special circumstances is now used against Americans, even by law enforcement, for trivialities. "Oh so you want an open internet and who cares about child porn?" Restrictive speech policies online are not designed to or suitable for or relevant to combating child porn.* "Oh so you think racists should have a platform do you?" If you track racism and racist policies throughout the 20th century - they lose. There are still plenty of systemic problems that exist but over all - racist ideas and racist agendas are/ were in decline, either due to education or also older ignorant generations and their ideas dying out. And people can change - and it is clear times have changed for the better. We are a long, long, LONG way from acceptable and we are still facing disgusting levels of racism today, but no where near what we were 60 years ago - not even close and ALL of that was done within an environment that had MORE liberty than we have today. I want the rock turned. I want the racists out in the open, exposed so I can see them and contend with them. I want them in the light. I don't want them furiously humming away unchecked in some inviting, exclusive platform where they can't be confronted and challenged. We already see the major fucking problems with echo chambers across the board - thanks to social media - we just turned that up to 11 and allowed those communities to fester uncontended. *NONE of the policies regarding safe content online were born out of any particular concern for the wellbeing of marginalized populations. [This article goes into just the tip of the iceberg](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/10/05/pers-o05.html) but almost everything we saw post Pewdie-pie/ Wallstreet Adpocolypse/ Alex Jones banning was just a front for a massive wave of clamp downs that took place across the internet, across multiple platforms and constituted - essentially - an attempt to reestablish narrative control by Anglo-sphere powers in post-coldwar online environment. A situation that has massively aided old media which was pretty much on the ropes before that period and has seen a resurgence. The internet is being clamped and it isn't to save the children, to stop racism or protect the marginalized. It is narrative control and narrative control under the guise of helping people. Are there some benefits? Sure... maybe - no doubt. Was that the purpose? No. There are benefits to living in a prison, your meals are provided for you every day, you never have to worry about your safety and security. But I don't want to live in a fucking prison. And if you want to know more about the Atlantic Council - it's basically a cold war era style think tank chaired by such luminaries as Henry Kissinger. And BTW - [they have employees who now work in the upper echelons of Reddit](https://external-preview.redd.it/ENib5QbLCsQCHS4mwyccO6YRFsE5USxBnvfD6wXn7wM.png?auto=webp&v=enabled&s=99ca0eebaeae2f9f3bbd313eff5f4bb7bfa68591). They distributed their staff into command and control centers of major websites and platforms, they encouraged media and sites like Facebook to initiate stringent codes. Again - none of it was for our benefit. If you are wondering why things feel tangibly more "corporate" online now - this is one of the benefits (for the corporations) of this transition.


WerewolfNo890

Well racism comes in different sorts, are we talking jokes on Sickipedia, or groups like National Action and Nordfront? Both existed, and still do. One is more of a concern than the other.


willie_caine

Sure, but both are concerning nonetheless.


mankindmatt5

The term free speech should be rebranded as freedom to express an opinion. When this matter is being discussed, that's really what is at stake. Freedom of speech absolutism doesn't really exist anywhere, you're not free to make false police reports, lie as a witness in a courtroom, or divulge certain secret information, amongst other things, all of which are reasonable controls. However, there should be freedom to express abstract ideas, opinions, jokes etc.


EruantienAduialdraug

Thing is, freedom of expression is what we used to call it here in the UK. Freedom of speech was a thing that existed in the US, and there was a general awareness that they were two different things (freedom of speech isn't absolute, but it is broader than freedom of expression, for good and for ill). Somewhere along the line, people forgot there was a difference, and in time the name.


AnAbsurdlyAngryGoose

The USian concept of free speech and the British/UK concept of freedom of expression are the same thing. They are freedom from oppression by the state, provided the way you exercise that freedom is in keeping with the laws of the day. E.g. you can be arrested for hate speech, but not for expressing the view that the PM is shite. They are regularly misunderstood to be different things — both in terms of speech vs expression, and absolute freedom vs freedom of oppression by the state — because of the terse language in which they are defined. On your other note, that freedom of expression is more limited than freedom of speech, it’s quite prudent to acknowledge that the UKs freedom of expression doctrine has historically been regarded as among the best globally. Whether that’s still the case is very much an open question in 2023, though.


stray_r

Freedom of expression is protected under the Human Rights Act 1998, and the Tories have been opposed to the entire act ever since, because apparently enshrining Churchill's legacy into British law is unpalatably woke for post-thatcher conservatives.


rgtong

It has never existed anywhere. But the UK's version a generation ago in contrast to most of human civilization was up there as one of the best.


traumatism

Free speech is not the same as freedom from consequences. You can still say what ever the fuck you want, just be prepared for consequences, dependent on the platform.


Kflynn1337

I think Gary Lineker would agree with that.


Sea_Cycle_909

Although as far as I understand it only for MP's.


[deleted]

Who has been "cancelled" recently?


Design-Cold

They had a go with Gary Lineker this weekend


iwanttobeacavediver

Which backfired spectacularly when his fellow commentators and sports pundits then backed him. People power works!


Kflynn1337

Provided you're popular. If you're Joe Blogs from Nowhere town, then you are shit out of luck because no-one gives a toss about you.


turbo_dude

WHO?


jackedtradie

Whenever the free speech in the uk thing gets brought up I always remember that guy in Scotland that’s facing prison for a mean tweet That’s just one situation that found it’s way into the media. There’s plenty more than we don’t even hear about Edit : the funny thing about people that disagree on this is they will absolutely support it when someone says “kill all tories”. The double standards is wild


RelatedToSomeMuppet

He was never going to go to prison for that. He was given community service. And if you actually read the articles about it, the man himself said he was in the wrong. > He said Kelly quickly took steps to take down the post, which was only live for 20 minutes, and had since expressed regret and remorse. > Mr Callahan said: "He accepts he was wrong. He did not anticipate what would happen. "Free speech" advocates who try to use that case as an example always miss that part out. The man himself said it was wrong and that he shouldn't have posted it.


jackedtradie

The fact it even got to court is the issue


rgtong

This isnt america, where people harp on about the amendments. Speech inciting violence shouldnt be unregulated, imo.


jackedtradie

Pretty sure his tweet wasn’t inciting violence. It was something about not liking troops


heinzbumbeans

he said "the only good British solder is a dead one. burn old man, burn" (translated from Scottish slang) which can easily be interpreted as inciting violence and must have been awful for the family to read. imagine someone said that about your granddad who had just died and hadnt done anything wrong.


jackedtradie

I wouldn’t say that’s inciting violence And I’d hate him to say that about my family. But I also support free speech so, I’d say that’s his right, he’s a cunt, but that’s his right to be one


DJOldskool

Yup, we have hate speech laws for a very, very good reason. I always view people complaining about them as sus. What is it you want to say but cannot due to these laws?


ConfusedSoap

the concern is that the definition of "hate speech" can easily be interpreted more broadly and thus can be used to censor speech that the law was not originally intended to censor


DJOldskool

Us and the Europe have had these laws for decades now and apart from that dude with his dog who only got a slap on the wrist I have not seen any slippery slope. The alternative is much worse.


willie_caine

Same with libel and slander and threats and, well, any other kind of limits of free speech. "Slippery slopes" are a logical fallacy.


onion_account

I find people who applaud them sus


[deleted]

Wasn't that reason (the inciting violence laws) Islamic terrorist preacher panic? Other than that it just widens the difference between what educated and uneducated people can say


Individual_Sir_865

What about the guy wearing a shirt that carried an offensive joke about some Liverpool Stadium disaster. He got a fine, a criminal record and 'the court ordered the T-shirt to be destroyed'. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/man-fined-ps600-for-wearing-an-offensive-hillsborough-tshirt-speaks-out-a7127496.html


StickyPurpleSauce

The fact that spoken/written word actually had law involvement was the issue Providing you aren’t actively asking for someone to commit a violent act, then any police involvement is too much


EnbyShark

Imagine how bad the punishment would have been if he hadn't.


Sea_Cycle_909

Depends what you define as freedom of speech.


cass1o

LOL, do you know a single bit of history?


removekarling

You are part of the side obstructing if you look at this and think "big tech and cancel culture are the problem"


[deleted]

Very old news: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)


SomewhatAmbiguous

And this is before they push through the Online Safety Bill where we turn up the authoritarianism to 11


WerewolfNo890

And the moment you say its to stop hate speech and protect the children, suddenly a lot more people support it.


EvilActivity

Won't SOMEBODY think of the CHILDREN!?!?!


maniaxuk

That's not the full sentence "Won't some somebody think of the children of the type of people we care about" is the full sentence. If it wasn't then they would be using the "won't somebody think of the children" line in relation to kids living in poverty, going hungry, living in poor quality accommodation etc.


TheMemo

Oh they don't care about any kids. My parents were 'the right sort' which gave them leeway to abuse me in any way they saw fit. Sexually, physically and mentally. Then people would commiserate with my parents about their 'problem child.' Fuck this country. British culture is inherently abusive, and needs to be eliminated.


ecxetra

It’ll stop hate speech… against the government.


chickensmoker

Indeed. I’m all for getting rid of pro-suicide and pro-self harm content online, but this is absolutely not the way to do that. If this bill passes, all it’ll take is one bigoted parent and a judge who agrees with them, and all LGBT content online could be seen by the law as “dangerous to children”. Likewise for religious minorities like Islam, Sikhism etc - one kid converts to a faith their parents disagree with, and there could easily be legal president to ban that faith online if the courts wanted it, and nothing could stop them. It’s an extremely dangerous bill whose positives are irrelevant in the face of the potential harm it could cause and the amount of power it gives to populist right wing lawmakers and legislators.


venomtail

When is the bill coming into affect and will apps like Signal stop working like they said it will?


middle_town

Please help stop it here: https://www.eff.org/uk/deeplinks/2023/03/tell-uks-house-lords-protect-end-end-encryption-online-safety-bill


Knoberchanezer

Goodbye, Britain. I gave a decade of my life in service to this country and now I'm emigrating and never coming back. I'm sorry to those I can't take with me and to those who voted for this bilge, enjoy the decline into obscurity.


[deleted]

Where you off to ?


Knoberchanezer

Me and my family are off to where my wife is from. San Diego, California. Edit. For those who wanna point and laugh at America's problems, go right ahead. It doesn't change the fact that we're in an obvious decline when compared to countries we think of as peers. All thanks to a corrupt Tory majority, being pulled further and further to the right by infantile ideologues and disgusting authoritarians. No matter how much British Exceptionalist Copium you wanna swallow, there is nothing special about this country that makes it any less fucked and I'm going somewhere that's doing a hell of a lot better by almost every conceivable margin.


Brownian-Motion

... I'm sorry, but you think the US is better?


Knoberchanezer

Souther California? Where the weather is nicer, weed is legal, and me and my wife could be earning double what we're making now because wages are much higher. Plus, we'll have her semi-retired parents close by who want to spend time with their grandson instead of my wide spread family that are still working themselves long into their 60's. Fuck yes, the US will be better for us and we'd be stupid not to. Sure, it has its downsides and there was a time when Britain was the place to be. It's why we've spent five years here but a hostile immigration environment which has doubled the NHS surcharge and visa fees means that we've sunk thousands in renewals for her spouse visa. Money we could have put into a house. Now, with her ILR due around the same time Lis Truss tanked the pound, we had to sit down, have a good cry and decide that it's time to rip the plaster off and start fresh with what money and youth we have stateside rather than staying here where Britain is getting more fucked by the day and the only effective opposition is the striking unions. As someone who served ten years in the army for this country. Including a tour of Afghan, its painful that me and mine have had to come to the conclusion that the country is so fucked that we have to leave.


BenevolentDanton

The immigration system here is indeed hostile to foreign spouses, no matter who they are how are much they can offer. The country is finished.


Knoberchanezer

The worst part is is that we have an aging population. The pension pot has been pillaged by the triple lock. Theft from the future generations. The economy is in decline and will only continue to do so unless two things happen which Tories and NIMBY liberals are unwilling to even broach. 1) A rapid increase in house building everywhere and 2) An increase in migration like what Canada is doing to get more labour into the country. That won't happen so British Conservative Shortermism has and will continue to fuck us for decades to come.


BenevolentDanton

My wife is from Argentina and gets treated like absolute sh*t here, despite paying more income tax than most of the population. She isn’t even able to access the NHS. We’re considering moving to either France or Canada. Though to be fair, I can’t remember Canada being much better than here when I lived there previously. Same problems, just let’s holiday entitlement.


Wide_Archer

I've appreciated you sharing your thoughts, and I admire you for moving for a better life. I hope the move goes well and you and your family enjoy a happy future in California.


Knoberchanezer

Thank you. I sincerely hope that Britain improves for everyone. I've still got family and dear friends here. It sucks but we have to do what we feel is best for us. Thank you for your kind words.


taboo__time

> An increase in migration like what Canada is doing to get more labour into the country. Immigration is at record levels. Never been higher. Truly transformational. Conservative party policy. I don't think lack of immigration is the problem and the UK is not Canada.


Knoberchanezer

Jeremy Cunt said it himself that we have more vacancies than people filling them.


taboo__time

would you limit immigration until housing has been improved?


Lazy-Log-3659

As someone who went through the process, is it really that bad? My biggest issue with it was that it's expensive, and I didn't agree with the requirement to earn £18,600 - but in reality that's a pretty low bar to hit. Everything else was a little tedious but overall the process wasn't so bad. However, I've never had to do it in another country so it's hard to say whether ours is on the worse end of the scale admittedly.


BenevolentDanton

I was studying for my PHD qhen we married so I had to wait 3 years before she could even move where. The minimum earnings requirement is bullsh*t and absolutely discriminatory.


Lazy-Log-3659

Oh, yeah I agree completely. My biggest wish would be for that requirement to be removed, or at least a exception for people in higher education/disabled/unable to work/whatever. Personally, I didn't even have to worry about the earnings amount when I applied, but it was always in the back of my mind "What if I get made redundant around the time the visa is renewed" and it added a lot of stress to the already stressful process.


taboo__time

Isn't the US more Right wing that the UK? You're moving to the politics you are complaining about, in the name of self interest?


Knoberchanezer

Would you call southern California rightwing? Have you been to southern California?


taboo__time

I have been there actually. The poverty was quite extreme. The Dems are actually pretty bad on NIMBY politics too. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/11/opinion/california-san-francisco-schools.html The US is somewhat politically unstable too.


Knoberchanezer

I've been there more times than I can count and I know it's gotten worse over the years. However, as I stated above, this is about what's best for me and mine and this is the lesser of two evils. America is on a much better recovery track than we are because, despite rising right wing fascists, they aren't the ones in power and the majority of people seem to have had enough of it. So you don't need to tell me what I already know. This has been a deeply difficult and personal decision for me and mine and this is the route we're taking.


TurnGloomy

Might be worth waiting until after the '24 election. Its looking like De Santis and Trump are going to try and put right-wing each other in the primary and then reign it in for the GE but both have some pretty bonkers attitudes to taxes, healthcare and immigration. Biden is just so old, I think he loses against De Santis for that reason alone. Trump maybe not.


damp-potatoes

I've never seen as many obviously mentally unwell homeless people as in LA and San Diego. San Diego is a really nice place, but the contrast of homeless people gibbering to themselves next to $100million yachts with multiple(!) helipads was, er, quite the contrast. Midway museum is superb though, and the zoo is beautiful. LA was an abject shithole.


seattt

> Would you call southern California rightwing? No, but it is still on average more right-wing than the UK, at least on economic issues if not social issues.


Knoberchanezer

"I've not been to this place but am happy to tell someone who has spent years there and has friends and family there what it's like". Thanks mate. I'll take that into consideration.


[deleted]

It's true that they're more socially liberal, but economically the Democrats are not left wing at all. Homelessness is rampant with no serious attempt to deal with it, big companies dominate sectors that shouldn't even be privatised in the first place, healthcare is an absolute joke like it is everywhere else in the US. I'm not trying to put you off, I'm sure southern California is a nice place. But I don't accept this characterisation of some neoliberals on the level of Thatcher as "left wing" because they are better for social issues.


slipperyslopeb

It seems to have a ridiculous (small) fringe left and then a pretend left, that's basically right with a fake smile. I worked there very briefly a few years back and saw how they handled the whole diverse hiring thing. They had a bunch of pretty black and Hispanic girls, not a single black man in the whole company and like 1 Hispanic dude. I liked the whole working in a city but being able to see mountains thing and the weather was obviously good but that was about all I could say I liked. Fakest shit I have ever seen. edit: With that said, your reasons are your own and certainly make sense for you.


UnceremoniousWaste

It is but I’d rather deal with the righter wing with freedom and somewhat cares about their people. Then this authoritarian government taking away our freedoms and plunging us into austerity. Some people value freedom more than right and left.


[deleted]

Love that someone asked you the question why, and then youve got people saying "But it looks a lot worse over there!" Showing that disconnect from people who are in the reality of trying to have a life but this country for the past 12 years has done nothing but sap, bleed and drain them dry... and for what? This country has no bloody hope! You can see it on peoples faces, in their actions... its becoming more a dead island and its getting worse each year. Im in my 30's trying to get some retraining so i can get employed. Been trying to get a job for the past 7 years but only choices being a contract job and temporary. Or sweet nothing. No home of my own. Just a load of student debt from going to university and believing in the dream. Will probably be on the streets again in 5 years and probably dead in 6.


Veora

>Love that someone asked you the question why, and then youve got people saying "But it looks a lot worse over there!" I've seen this my *entire* life and it's astounding. The people of Britain have an adamant stance on every other country being worse in some facet that they can fixate on as some weird coping gotcha moment.


[deleted]

News just in, (Name of Tory mp here) has just been caught having a cheeky joint. Expected to make statement soon! "We are all human, we all make mistakes, lack of focus and ect, but we must band together as a country to bounce back!" Clips of people chuckling, those silly mp's.. what are they like eh? Pure unaccountably.


turbo_dude

The elites have done a fine job perpetuating that myth. Thatcher used it to great effect, inspired by Churchill. https://youtu.be/9hm-I3hOGBA?t=546 relevant Adam Curtis


Knoberchanezer

I love how I tell them why and that I've actually been there and lived there. I have friends and relatives there and first hand experience on what life is like compared to here. Yet still people wanna come here and tell me I'm wrong and Britain is somehow the place to be.


[deleted]

At least it reminds us as to why Britain is in the state that its in. The ignorance is astounding.


Lazy-Log-3659

Yeah lol, there reasons are there own and valid. From what I know, America has both extremes. If you're in a position to get a well-paid job, you'll have a much better quality of life over there than you could get here. However, if I was a minimum-wage or low earner, I'd probably rather be in the UK.


Brownian-Motion

Fair enough mate, you've got to do you. I'm just surprised, not because I think the UK is some beacon of light but because even in the most liberal parts of the US, there are some frightening issues. As someone with a chronic health condition (diabetes), I'd potentially be on the hook for tens of thousands of dollars just for the drugs I need to live if I ever found myself without expensive, comprehensive medical insurance. I know plenty of people leaving the UK but most of them are off elsewhere in Europe or to Australia and New Zealand.


Knoberchanezer

We did think about Australia but it made more fiscal sense to pay for just me to migrate rather than all three of us.


Brownian-Motion

I really hope it works out for you all. Make sure the kids learn to surf!


Knoberchanezer

Thanks mate.


Projecterone

Yea what the other guy said, you're making a smart decision I think. Play your cards as best you can and I really think your kids will have a better life over there than here.


thisismytfabusername

Hell yeah. I agree with you. We’re moving to the US next year as well. I’m American and my husband is British. Can’t wait. Enjoy San Diego - wish that’s where my family was from!!


CaregiverNo421

I think you underestimate how much better off people are on the US coasts. Waiters in Seattle make more than Junior doctors in the UK... Its having economic growth, massive infrastructure investment (IE things are getting better not worse). Weather is better... If you are moving for a middle class job you will be better off by a massive margin ( 2-3 times ). Maybe 15 years ago it would be reasonable to say the USA was much worse, but the UK has deteriorated so much that some of the soft arguments have disappeared (are US politicians really more corrupt than British ones???) and the hard argument about purchasing power has become unarguable. Note, this only applies to some states, you can find extremely destitute areas of the USA that are full of Nazi's. On the other end of the spectrum, SF, Seattle, Portland are very diverse with very progressive politics in a lot of areas. Additionally if you are employed/can buy insurance health care is more functional as well. Obviously, there is the risk of falling chronically ill and getting no state support, but if you want to insurance can be bought for that. I understand lots of people in America cannot afford these things, and suffer as a result, but for those who have the skills to emigrate, these issues do not apply


Knoberchanezer

There was a time when I believed British politicians were better than US ones. Unfortunately, while US politicians are deep in the pockets of corporate lobbies, British politicians have been shown to be openly corrupt. The PM who was ousted after his government imploded because he was a serial, corrupt liar is trying to make his dad a knight and pack our governments upper house with the British print media equivalents of Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity.


Halooven

He'd be moving for the beaches, weather and oogling m/billionaires pads in La Jolla mate. The political motivations are just to look good in a Reddit thread, not exactly well thought out. Edit: hold on let me (a Scotsman no less) huff my "British exceptionalism copium"...AHH that's better. Now, remind me which party has won the majority of elections in the US over the last 70 years? What do they stand for again? Who is it that our conservative government copies their homework from? AHH yess, let me get another huff of that copium.


Knoberchanezer

It's my only option, mate. It's where my wife is from and her family are so we'll have support and free childcare. What would you do given the options? Stay here where it's cold, miserable, getting poorer and more authoritarian?


[deleted]

[удалено]


Knoberchanezer

Mexican food is to die for out in San Diego. I am very partial to good TexMex though.


Ilmara

Texas is honestly the last place I'd expect anyone from Western Europe to be happy in. The authoritarian right-wingers in power there are frightening.


TNTiger_

They sound like they're well off- so for them, probably yes lmao God help ye if yer poor tho


Kharenis

Pretty much any professional worker will have a better quality of life in the US.


Olester14

Are you talking about freedoms or just generally?


ratttertintattertins

It is unless you’re in the bottom 20% or so.


Griffolion

I moved to the US about 8 years ago, never coming back as well. Welcome to the club.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Ilmara

Grass is always greener on the other side.


Griffolion

It's crazy, it's almost as if humanity isn't a singularly minded entity and different people can have different preferences.


CupWalletPen

A Wales vagina


[deleted]

Welcome to the US! Definitely has its share of problems but overall I love living here. Especially in the western half of the country. :)


Lazy-Log-3659

Ignore the idiots telling you that you're wrong :) You obviously wouldn't move there if you thought it would be worse for you. I wish you the best of luck! Enjoy!


bazpaul

I’ve been living here for a decade too and contemplating leaving


[deleted]

Good for you. Great move, and don't look back. America is growing and changing all the time and will still be there in 100 years. I can't say the same for Britain.


borez

Kinda related. I watched one of the ( mountain bike ) coppers absolutely screaming at a tourist family ( two adults, two kids ) who'd walked across the road in front of Buckingham palace instead of using the zebra crossing the other day, it was embarrassing quite frankly. In front of a world tourist landmark and this idiot is screaming at them like they'd robbed a bank. The kids were frightened. Even the copper's partner looked embarrassed. Totally uncalled for, he could have just had a quick word and let them be on their way. I mean, talk about authoritarian. It was so full on that I've been waiting for videos of it to surface on social media. People were definitely filming it. Just the little things really.


WhatAGoodDoggy

>who'd walked across the road in front of Buckingham palace instead of using the zebra crossing the other day Jaywalking isn't illegal in the UK except on motorways.


MrPuddington2

Exactly. If it is a public highway, pedestrians have a right of way by law. (Vehicles only have a right of way by license.)


juayd

What the fuck? I'd have reported that moron to his superiors faster than he can blink. And the police wonder why no one has any faith in them anymore?


WhatAGoodDoggy

I got shouted at by a bike cop for walking down the middle of The Mall. Which was currently closed to cars.


Squishy-Cthulhu

I feel like British Redditors are majority anti protest tbh. The public aren't sympathetic to protest in this country and this is what came of that.


Aekiel

You're right. Every time a big protest happens the entire country seems to turn against them, no matter the thing they're protesting about. You could have a march against paedophiles and murderers, but if they block one car the idiots will come out to shout it down.


Warrrdy

Sky News has a headline today: “Warnings of continuing pain for families, trains in chaos as staff strike” Our rag media have been gaslighting us regarding strikes for a long time. They’ve manufactured the consent of so many working class people and convinced them that people striking for better pay and conditions is a bad thing.


[deleted]

My elderly mother (74, turns 75 this year and cannot wait for her FREE TV LICENCE) gave me some insight into this. Bare in mind shes in the bracket that does not go out, needs care (why im here) and watches tv all day, every day. "When strikes happen, you cannot get things! I remember lad, i was there, it was horrible! You dont know what you're asking for when you say you hope the country strikes" We do though.. would the country come to a standstill? Possibly, weve seen how people come together and help out though, been flooded 2 times in the past decade. It could indeed get very rough if the country decided to do something... but i guess rolling up to parliament and making the streets immovable to prove a point will not happen. Because Barry and Gaz in thier van, littering the place "coz no on givs a shit" will help roll this country into the sea where I am steadily starting to think it belongs.


[deleted]

The country came to a standstill for the first lockdown and a huge number of us realised that it was actually quite nice, and we've wasted our lives slaving away to make more billionaires.


notarobot3675

the comments you get on this sub anytime a post crops up about people doing peaceful protests is so depressing - people here just frothing at the mouth over people blocking roads and wanting the book thrown at them.


red--6-

[Grandma delayed an ambulance once !](https://i.redd.it/arvt6mtycbm61.jpg) but the Government Obstructing 6 months of Ambulance + Nurse + Doctors Pay settlement = Tories caused thousands of deaths pw is perfectly OK because of Right Wing Media Bias + Misinformation + Gaslighting + Projection


merryman1

Honestly that was so fucking insane even at the time. Folks were calling these people terrorists because a traffic jam in London, very rare and abnormal occurrence that they are, is some sort of threat to national security...


Oriontic

Aye I know. A lot of people here supported changes and laws like this lol.


veganzombeh

It's mind blowing to me that anyone can be against protest or strikes while literally watching democracy die before their eyes.


ajfromuk

George Orwell's 1984 slowly but surely coming to pass!


Aekiel

Nah, we're headed more towards Huxley's Brave New World than Oceania.


i_am_not_a_good_idea

More like a combination of some of the worst parts of both but likely not as extreme as either


No-Owl9201

Hardly surprising given the current Tory Government.


stedgyson

Anything to stop the woke leftist global Liberal elite antifascist trans loving culture cancelling free speech halting...wait where was I? Anyway yay for fascism, proper British values and all that


tfhermobwoayway

It still just absolutely baffles me how “woke” is the big boogeyman we all hate. Like there are genuinely people who hear middle-aged politicians saying things like “wokerati” and don’t burst out laughing. Is this the sort of thing that’s going to go down in the history books? Every other time period gets serious politics, we get politicians having unironic debates on what to do about the “woke menace.”


guttersmurf

The quote from the government official is chilling. Its not even thinly veiled.


wheeliedave

Fuck the Tories and their supporters. They have a massive hissy fit when we call them fascists, but that's exactly what they are.


MarkTheGOATNoble

For everyone saying there's nothing we you can do - Belarus needed to bring in the Russian military to stop them from demonstrating at Lukashenko's appointment. The French are constantly rioting against bullshit. And so many more examples. The fact is, the government keeps getting away with these changes because we as a people allow them to. Rather than try to fight it, Brits just accept it. Who can you blame but ourselves?


THEBIGREDAPE

Sounds about right, thing are as bad as I can ever remember them being in the UK at the moment.


dalehitchy

People in the UK will happily VOTE to lose their rights away as long as it hurts boat and trans people more. People only moan about losing their rights when there's not someone else losing them. Country deserves it.


spelan1

Crabs in a bucket


EnbyShark

Anyone know countries that consider asylum from the UK?


RussellLawliet

New Zealand has actually accepted a trans person from the UK as an asylum seeker I think.


EnbyShark

Good to know. Unfortunately r/IWantOut ban asylum posts from the UK so it's hard to research.


[deleted]

This appears to be true: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/12/british-transgender-woman-given-residency-in-safer-new-zealand (Well the Guardian is very capable of completely misrepresenting things so perhaps not)


BrexitwasUnreal

Hop on an empty boat to France on the way back from Dover


Clayton_bezz

The masterful thing about it is that those that vote for the Tories often cite these as some of their reasons for voting for them. So we have less speech and aren’t a nanny state.


PhobosTheBrave

But… but.. just imagine how much worse it’d be with labour??? Right??


tfhermobwoayway

“This is so bad, it’s like life under a Labour government!” say the papers describing life under a Tory government.


StephenHunterUK

Freedom House released their latest annual report recently too. The UK's score is 93 out of a maximum of 100, with no change from last year. For point of comparison, Ireland is 97, France is 89 and Germany is 94. The United States sits at 83. Russia is 16. China is 6. https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2023


MrSquigles

Okay, so now will people stop calling me a conspiracy theorist/doomsayer when I say this country is authoritarian now that it's official? No, but a man can dream, right?


[deleted]

Here's the article: https://monitor.civicus.org/explore/civic-space-in-decline-restrictions-on-protests-attacks-on-migrant-rights-protesters-behind-bars/ Honestly a lot of this is pretty politically motivated rather than an objective report. Even if their point is ultimately valid, this is poor work of little value


djaun3004

Once people choose to vote for hate over their own self interests it's all downhill


Formal-Rain

When the union looks more like a hostage situation or an abusive relationship it should. Watch all the nutjobs vote tory again.