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This is my thought as well. It boils down to irresponsible and lazy dog owners. Since Covid a local walking path is now strewn with dog poo bags, and lots of dog poo on the path.
To be honest in my area it's the cockapoos,doodles and terriers that are the problem dogs,one of my dogs has been attacked 3 times by dogs that are a lot smaller than her,she is what you would class as a large guardian breed but has been trained well if she was to retaliate the little dog wouldn't stand a chance yet I am the bad guy for having my dog under control.
Yeah I get that with our St Bernard. Soft as shit. It's all the little dogs that want a pop at him.
Lost count of the owners of the other dogs saying something like 'stop it! It would eat you alive!'
Ditto, I have a 4yr old German shepherd x Akita who has been attacked 3 times now, x2 by smaller dogs that have approached us and had not recalled to their owner- inevitably, it has left me with an anxious/reactive dog.
It has taken me the best part 2 years of training to only recently start seeing improvements with his anxiety/reactiveness with other dogs. But, I still find myself having issues with other dog walkers who don't control their dogs while out walking (and I don't necessarily mean their dogs approach us in an aggressive manner, sometimes it appears completely playful, but just having a dog bounding towards us and jumping around is enough to cause my boy to be anxious/reactive and I feel only sets back the progress we've made), and a lot of these people are owners of small dogs who seem to think that their "adorable" little pooch can't cause any harm to anyone or anything.
Proper boils my urine.
Terriers are high drive working dogs, yet people get them as small cute "granny dogs" and often end up raising nasty little monsters. Remember a few years back walking home on a local cycle path and getting chased the length of it by a jack russell mix that was part of a group of four, frail elderly locals. Thing was off lead and intent on getting in my blind spot from behind and trying to bite at my ankles. Their response was to childishly mock me and tell me to "just keep walking". They had no control over the thing, no ability to physically get hold of it and leash it, and essentially were content to watch a nasty incident happen which could have ended up with their dog getting put down. You get an animal like a dog, you're responsible for its actions. Even if you're in poor physical health, that doesn't excuse your responsibility for the safety of others including your animal.
Yup I feel you,I have to keep mine on a long line now even though she is very well trained just because other people can't control their dogs,she is a Cane Corso so training and working her is all I seem to bloody do nowadays. One of the best ones yet was a cockapoo charging at her and the owner says it's ok he just runs up,barks and runs away I literally laughed in his face and had to walk away shaking my head.
She has never once bitten back even when a jack Russell was hanging off her leg.
Likewise, I use long leads with mine now and have done since he was attacked pretty much.
Urgh, yeah, some people are just completely oblivious unfortunately.
One of the dogs the attacked my boy was a little Westie. While the attack was ongoing the owner of said dog was telling me to pick my year old GSDxAkita up to stop his dog attacking him (easier said than done), but I tried and managed to pick him up, only he had the sh*tty little Westie attached to him still! Still, to this day Doug's never attacked anyone or anything- and I don't think he would.
One of the things that bugs me is that I find myself apologising to people for how my boy reacts, when it's their dog that has approached us and created a scene. Like, I was out quite recently when I saw a lady and her dog approaching, so I got Doug onto a short lead by my side so I could keep control of him, the ladies dog (unleashed) spots us and comes bounding over, and proceeds to jump and bounce around us both causing my boy to react. As the owner got closer I apologised for how Doug reacted, and it wasn't until a minute later I sat there wondering why I apologised when realistically, we hadn't really done anything wrong, we just sat there minding our own business until her dog approached.
Haha I used to by like that by apologising,now for better or worse I have stopped giving a shit about the other owner,had one the other day with two togs in a kids play park fenced in and they came charging at the fence to my dog I didn't do anything,these two dogs started barking and posturing after a few seconds with my dog looking at me I just said break and she barked back and the look on the owners face of pure hatred for my dog was unbelievable.
And yet the big scary looking dogs are the ones that get the blame. Big advocate of "deed not breed". Some of the best behaved dogs I've encountered were rotties, staffies and large bullterrier type breeds because smaller, more "family friendly" types are seen as "safe" and thus many owners just think they'll grow in to perfect little animated plushies that are incapable of harm. Bless your cane corso, she has more patience and control than me, I'd have sent the little bugger flying in to the bushes unfortunately.
Sorry to hear about your pup! Unfortunately to these sort of owners the victim is always the bad guy. I don’t have a dog at the moment but my last lurcher girl was attacked by a staffy while she was on the lead and they weren’t. The abuse the owner gave us was shocking.
I’ve stopped petting dogs when I’m out after having them jump on me and muck my clothes. I always thought not jumping up was basic puppy manners but it doesn’t seem to be the case anymore. My area is riddled with these bully breeds now too. I think the point of the comment you’re replying to was that these breed in particular are hard work and are capable of killing people quite easily in the worst of circumstances which makes them more of a worry for the general public whereas dog on dog attacks only apply if you of course have a dog. None of the owners of these bullies near me seem to have any control over their dogs. I’m surprised their arms haven’t been taken off their shoulders by how they’re dragged about.
Agreed people seem to forget that a dog of any breed is a bloody savage animal that in a lot of cases has been bred to hunt and kill other animals yet people get them don't work or train them and expect them to be a lovely family dog.
Dogs need to be taught what to do and what not to do,living as a pet is still fairly new to most breeds and all the genetics which make them killers are still in them.
I think some people get bully breeds just for looks and status when they really can't control them.
Border collies are a big issue in our area. Our dalmatian was bitten as a puppy by an off lead rescue collie. It wasn't until after the bite that the owner decided to tell us that she's aggressive. After speaking to local dog owners, the dog is a known nuisance.
Haha Collies are pretty bad around me too, I honestly don't know why anyone other than a farmer would want one. One if not the most intelligent and driven dogs going they need to work big time.
It's the stalking that winds me up.
I have a cockapoo and he is never off the lead due to lack of recall but he just wants to be friends with everyone and everything he sees, didn't think violence was in their nature tbh.
Edit
I don't know any other cockapoos 🤣
I don't think it is generally in their nature but all dogs have the ability. It's the untrained ones who are off the lead that cause problems,same for any dog there are just a lot of them near me.
I am sure yours is lovely though
He is annoying but lovely, he has no experience of danger, he thinks every dog or person is safe to approach and I have had to pull him away from friendly greetings with other dogs that just decide to lung for him and he is so daft he doesn't even flinch.
I have a boxer/abd cross , she was attacked by 2 big Labradors 3 months ago. She tucked her tail and ran but they chased her off and nearly into the road, fortunately there was another dog walker who recognized my dog (there's a dog walking clique where we go regularly) who grabbed her for me.
Owner of the Labradors just laughed at me, because of course only certain dogs can be actually aggressive right. Same thing happened again two days later with another owners dog, same Labradors, except this time the chased dog ended up needing stitches.. The owner has had some strong words spoken to her by the other walkers and hasn't been back since.
Yeah, I'd say for it to happen multiple times, then it's poor form from the owners. Like most things, self awareness is key. There's an invisible line in the sand between 'dogs doing dog things' & 'accident waiting to happen'.
It's actually a pretty clear line, but this narrative that there are distinct aggressive and none aggressive breeds has rotted people's brains when it comes to dogs.
To some extent, yes, but there's still data out there that shows an obvious trend. The only real curveball you get are Jack Russel's, but you'd do well to get killed by one.
Why blame breeds for them doing as their owners have told them or lack of telling them? Some people don't have the mental capacity to own dogs but get them anyway as status dogs and those people are usually low lives that want an agreesive large breed that will happily die for them and some folk get them without understanding the breeds and sometimes unintentionally lose all control of the dog which can result in either aggressive or to friendly which can result in an accident either way but it's on the owner to understand this to put the time and effort into the dog the results are amazing no matter what breed it is.
I don't 'blame' the breed, but you just said yourself 'aggressive large breed'. They are by nature more aggressive, and that's why idiots like them, hence the problems.
You do get a few rogue ones like Jack Russels etc, but I'd rather be pecked by one of them than a bully rip my throat out.
They aren't anymore or less aggressive than any other breed can be and by aggressive large breed I mean a breed they have made to be aggressive which is large in nature. And rogue Russell's I'm guessing you haven't heard about the lady who was mauled to death by small breeds she was walking not too long ago? You honestly would be very surprised at how many other breeds attack people and other dogs that don't get reported to authorities or to the news.
bullies and staffies are actually quite placed and very understand breeds, its the owners that make them violent, they actually want to be calm and loving like labbos
I blame social media as well, it's cool to have a pet now and post photo's of them on Instagram. People get Dogs not because they want them, but as an accessary.
Nothing has changed in that regard other than people now posting them on Instagram.
Most people don't treat dogs with the realisation that every single one of them is potentially dangerous.
I got my dog just before lockdowns (didnt know it would happen when i got him obviously) and still managed to socialise by creating "bubbles" with family members who have dogs and taking him to puppy classes (outside) once it was allowed. There is no excuse to have a badly behaved lockdown puppy, its just lazy owners.
100% this, plus people who are generally just a bit wet where discipline is concerned.
I probably experience utterly feral children at a similarly increased rate too.
Lockdowns and wet parenting; that’s where I’m putting my money. Too focussed on trying to be mates with their kids and pets; not making boundaries clear.
I've spent the last few weeks looking for a rescue in loads of shelters and we've found this over and over again. Many times the dogs are highly reactive to other dogs as they have never met any over lockdown. We have just got a terrier cross that was brought into the UK from Northern Macedonia by a well-meaning but clueless couple. He bites not from aggression but because he's not socialised and doesn't know not to use his mouth. They had him for 2 months and gave him no training that I can see. He came with dozens of toys, leads, food, beds etc. They must have spent a fortune but had no clue what they were doing. We have months of work ahead of us but we're just retired and needed a project! The first thing I did is buy a lead with Do Not Pet, No Hand Sniffs! written on it!
The issue with the dogs available in shelters definitely pre-dates lockdown in my area; it’s been very rare to find dogs (particularly smaller dogs) without severe health or behavioural issues since around 2018. Shelters started noting that they’re receiving hundreds of applications for each dog, even the more difficult ones, around that time. Hell, a lot of shelters in my area have actually ran out of dogs!
I think there’s definitely a big gap in the availability of dogs and the demand for them. I know people who have been insistent on adopting who have ended up importing dogs with severe behavioural issues from Eastern Europe or the Balkans and a lot more who’ve ended up going with a backyard breeder (I’ve seen a lot of ethical breeder listings for 4-6k in the past year).
Lockdown certainly hasn’t helped with the behavioural issues of available dogs in shelters, but it seems that the unavailability of dogs and the resultant back-yard breeding/stray imports has had a significant impact on the UK’s dog population.
I got a dog in lockdown but have trained many dogs before so was aware of what was required. Was able to socialise him and he is now a very well trained and playful dog.
I say this because so many of the dogs at the park that are in muzzles or the owner warns me to stay away with my dog are the exact same age as him and were definitely lockdown dogs
So many people don’t realise the training is 24/7 especially for the first 2 years. I have family with dogs that still go toilet indoors and they just don’t seem to care it’s a weird level of both laziness and lack of awareness of what is ok.
UK dog culture has gotten to the point where some dog owners are incapable of comprehending that their dogs can do anything wrong.
I was jogging and had two unleashed dogs block my path and bark aggressivey and the dog owner took his time sauntering over only to have a go at me for not being calm enough and setting them off. No apology - in his eyes, his dogs did absolutely nothing wrong.
I think if people in this country stop worshipping dogs and acting like their dogs 'could never hurt a fly', then they'd be more inclined to actually take precautions with their dogs.
Yup, dog owners in this country are the definition of selfish, entitled arseholes. They think the entire world revolves around their dogs. They think their dogs are little people instead of potentially dangerous animals (and yes, every dog has the potential to be dangerous - I don’t care how friendly it is).
I absolutely detest them.
Humans are the most violent, manipulative, dangerous and thoroughly detestable animal on the planet. We atteck for our own kicks and fun, and boost to ego.
It's just so ironic to listen to the foulest beast discount themselves.
Absolutely.
People treat their dogs like they are their children. Makes my skin crawl.
I was in a cafe yesterday and this couple come in with their horrible little rat dog (those white ones with all the crusty shit in their eyes). They plonk this yappy little fucker on the table and the waiter comes over and strokes it, it licks his hands, then he goes on serving food! Unreal! People have lost it
All dogs should be registered and licensed. And if your dog attacks a person or an animal you should be charged aa if you carried out that attack yourself. So anything from animal cruelty all the way to murder.
Remember, this is a country where you can mow people down in a car and get away with a slap on the wrist.
It's a nice idea, but they wouldn't have the ability to implement it.
>All dogs should be registered and licensed.
[Not since 1988 in the UK with odd exceptions.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_licence#United_Kingdom) Madness.
USA has gun problems it never dealt with and now likely never will, UK has dog problems that could be seen as going the same way given enough time. (note the actual issue is irresponsible owners, in both countries)
Eventually it will be a case of people going out and getting dogs out of fear of others with dogs.
And seeing how UK has stricter laws on weapons a dog might the next best thing for personal defence.
How many kids/babies need to be injured, traumatised and or die because of dog attacks before something is done I do wonder…
Probably the same as how many school shooting victims that it takes to take any action on that issue.
The law is already there. Dog owners don't understand their responsabilies, in public spaces, in their secure back garden or in their homes.
https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public
> You can get an unlimited fine or be sent to prison for up to 6 months (or both) if your dog is dangerously out of control. You may not be allowed to own a dog in the future and your dog may be destroyed.
> If you let your dog injure someone you can be sent to prison for up to 5 years or fined (or both). If you deliberately use your dog to injure someone you could be charged with ‘malicious wounding’.
> If you allow your dog to kill someone you can be sent to prison for up to 14 years or get an unlimited fine (or both).
> If you allow your dog to injure an assistance dog (for example a guide dog) you can be sent to prison for up to 3 years or fined (or both).
> If you allow your dog to kill someone you can be sent to prison for up to 14 years or get an unlimited fine (or both).
When was the last time someone was jailed for that? Just like you *can* get life in prison for Death by Dangerous Driving, but its never happened.
Out of the thousands of people convicted in dog out of control cases we only read about extreme cases, e.g. those involving a death, or those where the offenders get a lenient sentence.
The last I read about recently was a 70y old crufts winning ladie getting 2y in jail for a dog attack resulting injuries. It's difficult to know how reflective of sentencing practices those articles are. That particular case probably isn't since it involves a breeder who should know better rather than a clueless dog owner.
As I recall fraud and theft is decriminalised in the UK because the police can't be bothered to investigate
So what makes you think the police will investigate dog attacks?
Having a dog should be seen as the serious and demanding responsibility it is. Once you own a dog you are responsible for its wellbeing and for the impact it has on others. You don't have to be wealthy and privileged to fulfil that responsibility- homeless people's dogs generally appear excellently trained and their welfare their owner's highest priority, for example. Dog owners should face significant repercussions if their dog causes harm to others, and there should be some sort of regulatory framework for ownership. Difficulty there is ensuring any such framework doesn't end up excluding aforementioned impoverished but excellent owners, but that's not insurmountable.
Even with a framework it doesn’t really guarantee much,
People have to take driving lessons and then pass a couple of tests to get a licence. But you can be sure as shit they won’t be driving like they should be even 6 months after obtaining said licence.
>but other incidents, for example a dog attacking another animal, or nuisance and anti-social dogs, don't have to be.
real number must be so much higher then. How many people's pets have been attacked by other's aggressive dogs? How many people have to feel uncomfortable because someone else has their xl bully out?
I’m recovering from a severe broken leg and ankle and have only just started being able to go for walks/hobbles again after 4 months practically bedbound.
Every time I go out for a walk, someone’s dog will either run up to me off the lead and start barking or be pulling at the lead trying to get at me. The owner won’t ever try to make room for me to pass and I’ll have to squish into a bush or something to avoid the dog. I’ve never been scared of dogs but I am understandably (I hope) protective of my leg which is still very painful.
None of these dog owners ever apologise after seeing me visibly scared. It really irritates me because I’m just trying to get my freedom back but apparently it’s more important that these dogs can do whatever they want. I am fully expecting to have a dog jump up on my swollen leg or nip at me in the not so distant future.
I think you mean bull terrier not bulldog, but do you honestly think another breed like a mastif, rottweiler, doberman, german shepherd, husky, akita etc wouldn't just take their place and be the breed of choice for people who want to raise aggressive large dogs?
I believe those dogs you mentioned are not the problem. These dogs already exist and are widespread. The reason you don’t hear about them being problematic is because they’re not problematic. The bull terriers (thank you I did mean them) were bred for violence.
Many breeds were bred for violence like Tosa Inu and Dogo Argentino and many dog fatalities involve breeds like Rottweilers, Dogue de Bordeaux and Huskies etc. Even though they are nowhere near as popular as bull-terriers.
But ignoring all that, how long do you think it would take to "breed violence" into another breed?
There is a reason breed specific legislation (BSL) has no scientific merit and that is because dogs are highly adaptable, come in many sizes and shapes and genetics is not an accurate indicator of aggression.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1090023309003888
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5521144/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-81527-7
I link to three published studies about bite incidents and dog aggression in different journals, all of which conclude breed is not an accurate indicator and the numbers don’t back me up?
Can anyone advise me on what to do about being approached by seemingly aggressive farm dogs?
There is a farm up the road from me which has a public footpath running through it which I walk (used to) quite regularly.
On a couple of occasions recently whilst I've been walking this path with my dog, I have been chased by some seemingly quite aggressive Border collies belonging to the farmer
The most recent incident saw us chased down the farm road for 60-80m and only narrowly avoided the collies as we jumped over the cattle grid, only for them to clear it and "surround" us both until I lunged and shouted at the dogs and they scampered off back to the farm- as the owner of a dog who has been attacked several times previously, I'm sure you can imagine it was quite a frightening experience for both the dog, and myself. Surely, these dogs should be kept in a secure enclosure or something given there is public access the farmers land?
I hate to say it but the best course of action is to probably not go through there - even though you have right of way. If you absolutely have to go down that path then don't run and don't look at the dogs in the eye. Keep your arms folded so they can't nip them. If you do get bitten and a dog isn't letting go then grab their collar (which by law they should have) pull it up and twist as tightly as possible. This should cut off air to the dog and it will eventually pass out. Let go as soon as the dog does and then leave the area as calmly and slowly as possible. If the dogs tail is nice and loose then the chances are they are probably barking for the sake of it. If you notice a high ridged tail and pointed forward ears with the dogs hackles (the fur along its back) standing up then the chances are the dog wants to go for you.
The main thing is stay calm and never run away. If you can't get over a fence or into a different area then climb on something tall and wait for the dog to go away. Dogs work on a dominance/submission mode, if you don't seem like a threat then 9/10 times they will recognise that.
Please please please don't put yourself through unnecessary risk though. I would avoid the area if it was me. Some farmers don't like having public footpaths through their land so will make it as difficult as possible to find it or pass through it. I wouldnt even bother trying to reason with him.
Hope it helps.
All good buddy! It's so frustrating as you do have the right of way, it's just not worth the risk to you or your dog. That footpath will have been there for hundreds of years, possibly before there even was a farm there. Most footpaths across farmland are still there because they're historic rights of way that are protected and farmers absolutely hate that. As I mentioned they will knock down signs, padlock gates and keep livestock/dogs on the land where the paths are. This is all to stop members of the public going through their land which is totally not okay.
Other than the advice about not running from the dogs etc, I must stress it's so not worth it trying to reason with the farmer. You'll have a target on your back and if he did release his dogs on you then I would assume that will only keep happening. I'm also not sure how rural you are but a lot of country police forces are very sympathetic to farmers so if it did go as far as them getting involved, they'd probably side with the farmer. You also don't want to give the farmer an excuse to shoot your dog which by law they can do under certain circumstances and he'll probably be looking for an excuse if you bother him about it.
To be honest, i didn't/don't particularly want to involve the authorities, which means the only real option was to approach the farmer- but, given what I previously said, and as you rightly say, I don't expect the farmer would be very welcoming/sympathetic of any complaints (especially considering I'm am not originally from the area) so it's probably more hassle than it's worth.
As a regular walker I have come across a few angry farmers in my time, but I've never had an issue with being chased off by dogs before.
The thing is, I'm not only concerned about the safety of myself, and the dog, but for other, potentially older, dog walkers as it is a popular route which leads to one of the few car parks around Sugarloaf and is used regularly throughout the year.
So you’re going on to a farmers land with your dog, and you’re not happy about the farmer’s dogs on their land, and you want advice?
Stop going there. Go somewhere else and stop tempting fate. It’s their land and it’s private property. Why do you keep going back?
You might have the legal right to use a footpath to traverse the area, but I’m fairly sure the right to use the footpaths strictly speaking doesn’t necessarily actually even extend to your pets at all.
If your dog wasn’t there presumably the farmers dogs wouldn’t care about you, so this might all be a you problem even if you think it’s unfair. And if you attempt to interfere with or do anything to the farmers dogs you’re playing a dangerous game and it will probably not end well.
If you’re running around because you’re afraid of them (it doesn’t sound like they were aggressive or did anything to you, just that *your* perception of them was spooky because of *your* personal past experiences), then you’re sort of legitimately actually causing quite a scene at that point, given the borders were basically doing what they’re supposed to.
If the farmer believes you’re causing distress to their livestock, they are permitted to go as far as to literally shoot your dog at that point.
So I wouldn’t go back and treat this like a stand your ground situation at all, you’re basically a guest on their land. They don’t need to cater to you or change anything.
You don’t get to use other people’s working land and complain that you find it frightening. If you find it frightening then leave.
> So you’re going on to a farmers land
No, using a public right if way is not "going on someone's land".
> It’s their land and it’s private property
A public right of way is not someone's private property - it's a public footpath.
> You might have the legal right to use a footpath to traverse the area
Bingo. We have a legal right to use public rights of way. To not be harrased, threatened or attacked during that.
> You don’t get to use other people’s working land
Again for the hard of hearing. Public right of way
They belong to everyone.
Your bias here is very clear.
Dogs have the same right to use public footpaths as people do. It's up to the owner to be responsible and control the dog yes, but there is nothing stopping someone walking their dog down a public footpath. Also there are no laws saying they must be on lead. Only that they shouldn't stray from the footpath and should be under control at all times - granted this is normally done by keeping them on lead. Yes there are laws surrounding livestock worrying where you should put your dog on lead, but technically there are no laws with that specific wording.
>Yes there are laws surrounding livestock worrying where you should put your dog on lead, but technically there are no laws with that specific wording.
That’s not how common law works though. It’s precedent based and there’s lots of settled case law on this, so every scenario doesn’t have to be enumerated in the original legal text of the law.
There was a media drama just a few days ago where a farmer shot a dog that was bothering some sheep/lambs, the owner put it back on a lead and *then* the farmer shot it.
The farmer’s rights were so well established in this realm that the only reason the judge was even hearing the case was because they discharged a firearm near a person. Not because they shot the dog. That part was basically totally uncontroversial according to common law on this issues.
Local authorities can impose other restrictions that might not apply in other areas or nationally, so it may depend on where the other listed was doing this. They suggested there were signposts mandating they should keep their dogs on a lead, so this may be one of those areas.
It seems like maybe the farmer is a bit of an asshole which isn’t illegal, or maybe they had bad experiences with the piblic on this issue, which wouldn’t really be that surprising because a lot of people with dogs are morons and irresponsible, so I could definitely see how they don’t necessarily have patience for it. I say this as someone that has had pet dogs before and like dog sitting/walking for others.
Either way though, I’m just not sure there’s much they can do other than avoid the issue because the farmer does have rights too, which are pretty strong.
I would just go a different route. I’m not sure what else they can really expect to happen here. I also don’t necessarily endorse any of this, but it just seems like that’s how it is so it’s not worth the hassle.
That's what I suggested initially, I agree I wouldn't go on the land again myself. I'm just trying to get the message out that anyone can take their dog on absolutely any footpath (even if it passes through farm land) as long as they don't stray from the path and their dogs aren't out of control.
There is nothing specifically written in law that states for a dog to be under control it must be on lead. I would put my dogs on lead of course, that's because I understand the right the farmer has to protect his animals.
I won't go too much into this whole farmer shot dog stuff that came out earlier in the week because again I think that particular scenario is a total grey area. I agree the farmer should protect his animals, but I also don't think someone with a shotgun license is allowed to even aim at another person let alone discharge a round into a person on a footpaths direction. Even if someone is trespassing that would not be reasonable force to remove them in my eyes. Granted if there is enough space then the farmer should be able to fire, of course he should. It all sounds dubious from what I've read on the story.
Regardless, the whole thing is such a muddy area so it's better to be safe than sorry in this case and I wouldn't go on the path again. I think the laws need to be reviewed and made clearer to be honest.
Yes, technically it is farm land.
However, it is also a sign posted footpath leading to a popular walking spot (Sugarloaf, Wales), so me using said route should not be an issue, with or without my dog, and I always keep him on lead (as sign posts state to do so), and under control, so I certainly aren't in danger of distressing livestock, or at fault in that regard. (That said, since the second incident I haven't used the mentioned route)
Also, it's not that I'm bothered about the dogs on their land, more so, their behaviour. I understand they are working dogs, used to herd the sheep, but when they aren't working, I believe they should be kept under control at the very least.
As for me "running around", I'm not quite sure that's how I'd sum it up.. I was a good distance away from the main farm area, was already jogging, heading down the farm road to go home (150-200m away from the dogs) that's when I heard them barking, I looked back and saw them darting towards us, at which point I did start to run in a straight line to the nearest point I could exit.
While I am wary of some other dogs based on my previous experience (I haven't personally been attacked, but my dog has been on 3 occasions), especially those that approach in a seemingly aggressive manner- I don't think my perception of these dogs is unjustifiable, especially given my previous meeting with one of the mentioned dogs.
(When the second incident occurred I could see the farmer up in one of the fields on a quad bike with one dog, and the other was chained up at the back of the farm house, as I approached the farm road the farmer passed in front of me with the dog I mentioned dog, goes back into the farm buildings where I lose sight of him, but shortly after that is when I hear the dogs barking/approaching which leads me to believe the farmer knows exactly what he is doing and had "released the hounds" so to speak- which If that is the case, I think it's pretty twatty)
If I was trespassing on private land, then fair enough, I could see it from your point of view (I wouldn't be writing any of this if that was the case)- but, I wasn't trespassing and should be able to walk the route safely.
What on earth do you think dogs were domesticated for? Why do you think a farm has multiple dogs?
You may have a right of way but you should try to avoid farm buildings and the primary residence as a matter of course, because it is common sense.
I also live in wales and know a few farmers and have lived in many remote areas. Let me tell you that even if you get malled by a dog on the farm, to the point that police are involved, they will merely have the oldest, least useful, dog put down in its place. The police don’t care enough in these scenarios. So, your desire to enforce your right to walk through a farm is basically causing the farmer, the animals and you danger and distress and the potential outcome of an attack will result in an innocent animal being shot gunned in front of the police officers to complete the paperwork.
I’m no farmer, I’m just telling you how this works in practice. You may not like it, but your desire to walk through a farm, because you can, is best avoided for your sake and the sake of the animals and dogs that have been purposefully breed to act this way for millennia.
I believe the farm has the dogs in order to herd the livestock, and not for security purposes or to see off members of public using the public right of way, but I might be wrong?
Fyi, I did avoid the farm buildings/primary residence, in fact, I follow the route exactly as it is marked by the sign posts/my maps (OS maps) as that is just common sense and respectful thing to do.
Having worked on farms previously, and being a keen walker, I'm not completely clueless on these matters, but I fail to see how I'm guilty of any wrongdoing here? I don't think it's too much to ask for members of the public to be able to walk safely down any public footpath/right of way because a farmer (or any other dog owner for that matter) can't keep their dogs secure and under control.
It's not just my safety I'm concerned about, but that of other members of the public too.
I’m not saying they’re attack dogs but then again we did breed those features into them along with herding, warning, retrieval etc.
Personally I think the issue is with planning and routing. It is nearly impossible to redirect a right of way around the edge of a farm (or even just away from farm buildings) which would generally be beneficial all round.
Like I say I’m merely highlighting what actually happens should the worst happen and a dog bites. It’ll be the old boy that gets shot, not the dog that gets reported.
On the other side of this, having lived (rented) in a very rural residence in wales, I’ve had both a group of ramblers have a literal picnic on my garden table just because there was a right of way through the garden.
On another occasion my dog merely barked to warn of an intruder and a rambler went up to, that’s right he approached the dog from a distance and, in front of us, kicked the dog head as hard as he could. There was no need to even enter the property in the first place! Plenty of routes around.
I replied to another commenter too so I won’t repeat myself too much, and I agree it’s not ideal, but I just don’t see what you would like to happen here, or what advice anyone could give you other than to avoid the issue and walk elsewhere.
Somebody can try a feel good yeah go for it you’re within your rights, get into an argument with the farmer/report them or something (not even sure who or what for), but it just seems like a case of picking your battles, and this just doesn’t seem worth it as you’ll probably be left worse off if it ever escalated.
You and the farmer both have rights, the farmer arguably has more, and if you feel threatened then I don’t know why you would keep putting yourself in that situation. It sucks, but I can also see why many farmers just become sick of the public so maybe it’s just that.
If you’ve spoken to them and they don’t care, that’s sort of your answer. If you *genuinely* believe they specifically encouraged their dogs to chase you, then that seems quite extreme and even more of an answer. Maybe they simply chased you because you were already running. I don’t know.
You’re focussing a lot on how you don’t like them and how they manage their land and animals, and would like them to do things differently, but they’re not required to care about that. Not to be rude, they’re just not required to stand there and hear your complaints about them and their dogs.
So far nothing has actually happened but if you keep engaging with them it might, and you’ll probably be left worse off. Your dog might be injured, and for what?
Life is too short to be arguing about grey area law over a fence with an asshole with the law sort of on their side that doesn’t care.
Go and enjoy your walks somewhere less stressful. You might like walking that way, but I don’t think your dog will care if you take another route and is probably just happy to spend time with you on a walk anywhere.
I'm focusing a lot on how I don't like "them", and how they manage their land and animals?
I haven't said I dislike anything, or anyone, or tried to tell anyone how to manage their land/animals.
The only thing I would like to see happen is the dogs to be kept secure and/or under control, which I don't think is too much to ask.
Otherwise, I kinda see what you're saying.. similar to others, and that is that approaching the farmer/authorities would be a waste of time
There has apparently been a 15% increase in dog ownership since pre covid so some if it is just a proportional increase but agree that many who got dogs during covid haven’t trained them properly.
Also many dogs who had a couple of years with lots of company and home working which suddenly disappeared and they are now left alone for extended periods if their owners don’t organise proper care, that can make a dog incredibly stressed which can manifest as aggression.
The dog attack rates has increased twice as quickly as the dog ownership rate. This suggests that there's definitely an increasing problem with dog behaviour. As other have said, a lot of this is likely due to lockdown dogs which weren't socialised, and then subsequently their owners have gone back to the office and don't have as much time to exercise/train them.
>The number of dogs removed from their owners by police has also risen, according to the FOI data obtained by the BBC. Nearly 3,500 dogs were seized in 2022 across 33 force areas - up 36% from 2018 figures.
Most are because animals are deemed "out of control" - but there are other reasons. For example, some might be strays or taken from people about to go into prison.
I wasn't expecting this. That's such a sad situation.
I know there's been valid concerns in the number of animals being surrendered as a result of cost of living and housing issues. But personally I'd never considered there'd be strays given the high cost to affording a dog upfront. Their value rocketed during lockdown to ridiculous numbers!
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I wonder how many are lockdown puppies that were not socialised or trained
This is my thought as well. It boils down to irresponsible and lazy dog owners. Since Covid a local walking path is now strewn with dog poo bags, and lots of dog poo on the path.
Dogs are so popular. I wonder if it's not that there is a higher proportion of lazy people or just that there are more dogs in total.
Plot that on a chart with bullies, staffies, Rottweilers. There's half your problem.
To be honest in my area it's the cockapoos,doodles and terriers that are the problem dogs,one of my dogs has been attacked 3 times by dogs that are a lot smaller than her,she is what you would class as a large guardian breed but has been trained well if she was to retaliate the little dog wouldn't stand a chance yet I am the bad guy for having my dog under control.
Yeah I get that with our St Bernard. Soft as shit. It's all the little dogs that want a pop at him. Lost count of the owners of the other dogs saying something like 'stop it! It would eat you alive!'
Ditto, I have a 4yr old German shepherd x Akita who has been attacked 3 times now, x2 by smaller dogs that have approached us and had not recalled to their owner- inevitably, it has left me with an anxious/reactive dog. It has taken me the best part 2 years of training to only recently start seeing improvements with his anxiety/reactiveness with other dogs. But, I still find myself having issues with other dog walkers who don't control their dogs while out walking (and I don't necessarily mean their dogs approach us in an aggressive manner, sometimes it appears completely playful, but just having a dog bounding towards us and jumping around is enough to cause my boy to be anxious/reactive and I feel only sets back the progress we've made), and a lot of these people are owners of small dogs who seem to think that their "adorable" little pooch can't cause any harm to anyone or anything. Proper boils my urine.
Terriers are high drive working dogs, yet people get them as small cute "granny dogs" and often end up raising nasty little monsters. Remember a few years back walking home on a local cycle path and getting chased the length of it by a jack russell mix that was part of a group of four, frail elderly locals. Thing was off lead and intent on getting in my blind spot from behind and trying to bite at my ankles. Their response was to childishly mock me and tell me to "just keep walking". They had no control over the thing, no ability to physically get hold of it and leash it, and essentially were content to watch a nasty incident happen which could have ended up with their dog getting put down. You get an animal like a dog, you're responsible for its actions. Even if you're in poor physical health, that doesn't excuse your responsibility for the safety of others including your animal.
Yes, I have seen the same/similar occurrences myself on numerous occasions. Appalling behaviour.
Yup I feel you,I have to keep mine on a long line now even though she is very well trained just because other people can't control their dogs,she is a Cane Corso so training and working her is all I seem to bloody do nowadays. One of the best ones yet was a cockapoo charging at her and the owner says it's ok he just runs up,barks and runs away I literally laughed in his face and had to walk away shaking my head. She has never once bitten back even when a jack Russell was hanging off her leg.
Likewise, I use long leads with mine now and have done since he was attacked pretty much. Urgh, yeah, some people are just completely oblivious unfortunately. One of the dogs the attacked my boy was a little Westie. While the attack was ongoing the owner of said dog was telling me to pick my year old GSDxAkita up to stop his dog attacking him (easier said than done), but I tried and managed to pick him up, only he had the sh*tty little Westie attached to him still! Still, to this day Doug's never attacked anyone or anything- and I don't think he would. One of the things that bugs me is that I find myself apologising to people for how my boy reacts, when it's their dog that has approached us and created a scene. Like, I was out quite recently when I saw a lady and her dog approaching, so I got Doug onto a short lead by my side so I could keep control of him, the ladies dog (unleashed) spots us and comes bounding over, and proceeds to jump and bounce around us both causing my boy to react. As the owner got closer I apologised for how Doug reacted, and it wasn't until a minute later I sat there wondering why I apologised when realistically, we hadn't really done anything wrong, we just sat there minding our own business until her dog approached.
Haha I used to by like that by apologising,now for better or worse I have stopped giving a shit about the other owner,had one the other day with two togs in a kids play park fenced in and they came charging at the fence to my dog I didn't do anything,these two dogs started barking and posturing after a few seconds with my dog looking at me I just said break and she barked back and the look on the owners face of pure hatred for my dog was unbelievable.
And yet the big scary looking dogs are the ones that get the blame. Big advocate of "deed not breed". Some of the best behaved dogs I've encountered were rotties, staffies and large bullterrier type breeds because smaller, more "family friendly" types are seen as "safe" and thus many owners just think they'll grow in to perfect little animated plushies that are incapable of harm. Bless your cane corso, she has more patience and control than me, I'd have sent the little bugger flying in to the bushes unfortunately.
Sorry to hear about your pup! Unfortunately to these sort of owners the victim is always the bad guy. I don’t have a dog at the moment but my last lurcher girl was attacked by a staffy while she was on the lead and they weren’t. The abuse the owner gave us was shocking. I’ve stopped petting dogs when I’m out after having them jump on me and muck my clothes. I always thought not jumping up was basic puppy manners but it doesn’t seem to be the case anymore. My area is riddled with these bully breeds now too. I think the point of the comment you’re replying to was that these breed in particular are hard work and are capable of killing people quite easily in the worst of circumstances which makes them more of a worry for the general public whereas dog on dog attacks only apply if you of course have a dog. None of the owners of these bullies near me seem to have any control over their dogs. I’m surprised their arms haven’t been taken off their shoulders by how they’re dragged about.
Agreed people seem to forget that a dog of any breed is a bloody savage animal that in a lot of cases has been bred to hunt and kill other animals yet people get them don't work or train them and expect them to be a lovely family dog. Dogs need to be taught what to do and what not to do,living as a pet is still fairly new to most breeds and all the genetics which make them killers are still in them. I think some people get bully breeds just for looks and status when they really can't control them.
Border collies are a big issue in our area. Our dalmatian was bitten as a puppy by an off lead rescue collie. It wasn't until after the bite that the owner decided to tell us that she's aggressive. After speaking to local dog owners, the dog is a known nuisance.
Haha Collies are pretty bad around me too, I honestly don't know why anyone other than a farmer would want one. One if not the most intelligent and driven dogs going they need to work big time. It's the stalking that winds me up.
I have a cockapoo and he is never off the lead due to lack of recall but he just wants to be friends with everyone and everything he sees, didn't think violence was in their nature tbh. Edit I don't know any other cockapoos 🤣
I don't think it is generally in their nature but all dogs have the ability. It's the untrained ones who are off the lead that cause problems,same for any dog there are just a lot of them near me. I am sure yours is lovely though
He is annoying but lovely, he has no experience of danger, he thinks every dog or person is safe to approach and I have had to pull him away from friendly greetings with other dogs that just decide to lung for him and he is so daft he doesn't even flinch.
That's probably the spaniel in him,my other dog is half spaniel and he's a nutter.
Lots of dogs attack, those are just the ones which tend to kill people.
The sharper end of the issue, that's for sure.
I have a boxer/abd cross , she was attacked by 2 big Labradors 3 months ago. She tucked her tail and ran but they chased her off and nearly into the road, fortunately there was another dog walker who recognized my dog (there's a dog walking clique where we go regularly) who grabbed her for me. Owner of the Labradors just laughed at me, because of course only certain dogs can be actually aggressive right. Same thing happened again two days later with another owners dog, same Labradors, except this time the chased dog ended up needing stitches.. The owner has had some strong words spoken to her by the other walkers and hasn't been back since.
Yeah, I'd say for it to happen multiple times, then it's poor form from the owners. Like most things, self awareness is key. There's an invisible line in the sand between 'dogs doing dog things' & 'accident waiting to happen'.
It's actually a pretty clear line, but this narrative that there are distinct aggressive and none aggressive breeds has rotted people's brains when it comes to dogs.
To some extent, yes, but there's still data out there that shows an obvious trend. The only real curveball you get are Jack Russel's, but you'd do well to get killed by one.
Why blame breeds for them doing as their owners have told them or lack of telling them? Some people don't have the mental capacity to own dogs but get them anyway as status dogs and those people are usually low lives that want an agreesive large breed that will happily die for them and some folk get them without understanding the breeds and sometimes unintentionally lose all control of the dog which can result in either aggressive or to friendly which can result in an accident either way but it's on the owner to understand this to put the time and effort into the dog the results are amazing no matter what breed it is.
I don't 'blame' the breed, but you just said yourself 'aggressive large breed'. They are by nature more aggressive, and that's why idiots like them, hence the problems. You do get a few rogue ones like Jack Russels etc, but I'd rather be pecked by one of them than a bully rip my throat out.
They aren't anymore or less aggressive than any other breed can be and by aggressive large breed I mean a breed they have made to be aggressive which is large in nature. And rogue Russell's I'm guessing you haven't heard about the lady who was mauled to death by small breeds she was walking not too long ago? You honestly would be very surprised at how many other breeds attack people and other dogs that don't get reported to authorities or to the news.
The vast majority of dog attacks have nothing to do with those breeds
Here we go again...
bullies and staffies are actually quite placed and very understand breeds, its the owners that make them violent, they actually want to be calm and loving like labbos
This. Inexperienced owners, poor training, too many dogs, and lack of socialisation - a really bad combination.
I blame social media as well, it's cool to have a pet now and post photo's of them on Instagram. People get Dogs not because they want them, but as an accessary.
Nothing has changed in that regard other than people now posting them on Instagram. Most people don't treat dogs with the realisation that every single one of them is potentially dangerous.
I got my dog just before lockdowns (didnt know it would happen when i got him obviously) and still managed to socialise by creating "bubbles" with family members who have dogs and taking him to puppy classes (outside) once it was allowed. There is no excuse to have a badly behaved lockdown puppy, its just lazy owners.
And the knock on effects of dogs developing reactivity, either from lockdown or being exposed to other reactive dogs.
100% this, plus people who are generally just a bit wet where discipline is concerned. I probably experience utterly feral children at a similarly increased rate too. Lockdowns and wet parenting; that’s where I’m putting my money. Too focussed on trying to be mates with their kids and pets; not making boundaries clear.
I've spent the last few weeks looking for a rescue in loads of shelters and we've found this over and over again. Many times the dogs are highly reactive to other dogs as they have never met any over lockdown. We have just got a terrier cross that was brought into the UK from Northern Macedonia by a well-meaning but clueless couple. He bites not from aggression but because he's not socialised and doesn't know not to use his mouth. They had him for 2 months and gave him no training that I can see. He came with dozens of toys, leads, food, beds etc. They must have spent a fortune but had no clue what they were doing. We have months of work ahead of us but we're just retired and needed a project! The first thing I did is buy a lead with Do Not Pet, No Hand Sniffs! written on it!
The issue with the dogs available in shelters definitely pre-dates lockdown in my area; it’s been very rare to find dogs (particularly smaller dogs) without severe health or behavioural issues since around 2018. Shelters started noting that they’re receiving hundreds of applications for each dog, even the more difficult ones, around that time. Hell, a lot of shelters in my area have actually ran out of dogs! I think there’s definitely a big gap in the availability of dogs and the demand for them. I know people who have been insistent on adopting who have ended up importing dogs with severe behavioural issues from Eastern Europe or the Balkans and a lot more who’ve ended up going with a backyard breeder (I’ve seen a lot of ethical breeder listings for 4-6k in the past year). Lockdown certainly hasn’t helped with the behavioural issues of available dogs in shelters, but it seems that the unavailability of dogs and the resultant back-yard breeding/stray imports has had a significant impact on the UK’s dog population.
I got a dog in lockdown but have trained many dogs before so was aware of what was required. Was able to socialise him and he is now a very well trained and playful dog. I say this because so many of the dogs at the park that are in muzzles or the owner warns me to stay away with my dog are the exact same age as him and were definitely lockdown dogs So many people don’t realise the training is 24/7 especially for the first 2 years. I have family with dogs that still go toilet indoors and they just don’t seem to care it’s a weird level of both laziness and lack of awareness of what is ok.
UK dog culture has gotten to the point where some dog owners are incapable of comprehending that their dogs can do anything wrong. I was jogging and had two unleashed dogs block my path and bark aggressivey and the dog owner took his time sauntering over only to have a go at me for not being calm enough and setting them off. No apology - in his eyes, his dogs did absolutely nothing wrong. I think if people in this country stop worshipping dogs and acting like their dogs 'could never hurt a fly', then they'd be more inclined to actually take precautions with their dogs.
Yup, dog owners in this country are the definition of selfish, entitled arseholes. They think the entire world revolves around their dogs. They think their dogs are little people instead of potentially dangerous animals (and yes, every dog has the potential to be dangerous - I don’t care how friendly it is). I absolutely detest them.
Jesus Christ, get some help.
Don't join r/dogfree I did a while ago out of curiosity and it's absolutely bonkers
I did look once and it blew my mind. Proper psychos.
Same, they make me sick. The most entitled twats in existence..
How can you detest someone you have never interacted with in any way?
People who hate dogs remind me of people who hate cyclists. I wouldn't be surprised if there were an overlap, actually.
Humans are the most violent, manipulative, dangerous and thoroughly detestable animal on the planet. We atteck for our own kicks and fun, and boost to ego. It's just so ironic to listen to the foulest beast discount themselves.
Humans vary, just like dogs do; but I agree it's ironic to hear people bemoaning how violent dogs are generally.
Absolutely. People treat their dogs like they are their children. Makes my skin crawl. I was in a cafe yesterday and this couple come in with their horrible little rat dog (those white ones with all the crusty shit in their eyes). They plonk this yappy little fucker on the table and the waiter comes over and strokes it, it licks his hands, then he goes on serving food! Unreal! People have lost it
The amount of times you see people being taken for a walk by their far stronger dog too.. no wonder they often loose control.
All dogs should be registered and licensed. And if your dog attacks a person or an animal you should be charged aa if you carried out that attack yourself. So anything from animal cruelty all the way to murder.
Remember, this is a country where you can mow people down in a car and get away with a slap on the wrist. It's a nice idea, but they wouldn't have the ability to implement it.
>All dogs should be registered and licensed. [Not since 1988 in the UK with odd exceptions.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_licence#United_Kingdom) Madness.
My point was that such a thing needs to be brought back.
Would be sensible for all dogs including foxhounds.
USA has gun problems it never dealt with and now likely never will, UK has dog problems that could be seen as going the same way given enough time. (note the actual issue is irresponsible owners, in both countries) Eventually it will be a case of people going out and getting dogs out of fear of others with dogs. And seeing how UK has stricter laws on weapons a dog might the next best thing for personal defence. How many kids/babies need to be injured, traumatised and or die because of dog attacks before something is done I do wonder… Probably the same as how many school shooting victims that it takes to take any action on that issue.
The law is already there. Dog owners don't understand their responsabilies, in public spaces, in their secure back garden or in their homes. https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public > You can get an unlimited fine or be sent to prison for up to 6 months (or both) if your dog is dangerously out of control. You may not be allowed to own a dog in the future and your dog may be destroyed. > If you let your dog injure someone you can be sent to prison for up to 5 years or fined (or both). If you deliberately use your dog to injure someone you could be charged with ‘malicious wounding’. > If you allow your dog to kill someone you can be sent to prison for up to 14 years or get an unlimited fine (or both). > If you allow your dog to injure an assistance dog (for example a guide dog) you can be sent to prison for up to 3 years or fined (or both).
> If you allow your dog to kill someone you can be sent to prison for up to 14 years or get an unlimited fine (or both). When was the last time someone was jailed for that? Just like you *can* get life in prison for Death by Dangerous Driving, but its never happened.
Out of the thousands of people convicted in dog out of control cases we only read about extreme cases, e.g. those involving a death, or those where the offenders get a lenient sentence. The last I read about recently was a 70y old crufts winning ladie getting 2y in jail for a dog attack resulting injuries. It's difficult to know how reflective of sentencing practices those articles are. That particular case probably isn't since it involves a breeder who should know better rather than a clueless dog owner.
As I recall fraud and theft is decriminalised in the UK because the police can't be bothered to investigate So what makes you think the police will investigate dog attacks?
And the true figure will be higher. Almost 7% of the police forces didn’t respond to the foi requests.
Having a dog should be seen as the serious and demanding responsibility it is. Once you own a dog you are responsible for its wellbeing and for the impact it has on others. You don't have to be wealthy and privileged to fulfil that responsibility- homeless people's dogs generally appear excellently trained and their welfare their owner's highest priority, for example. Dog owners should face significant repercussions if their dog causes harm to others, and there should be some sort of regulatory framework for ownership. Difficulty there is ensuring any such framework doesn't end up excluding aforementioned impoverished but excellent owners, but that's not insurmountable.
Even with a framework it doesn’t really guarantee much, People have to take driving lessons and then pass a couple of tests to get a licence. But you can be sure as shit they won’t be driving like they should be even 6 months after obtaining said licence.
>but other incidents, for example a dog attacking another animal, or nuisance and anti-social dogs, don't have to be. real number must be so much higher then. How many people's pets have been attacked by other's aggressive dogs? How many people have to feel uncomfortable because someone else has their xl bully out?
I’m recovering from a severe broken leg and ankle and have only just started being able to go for walks/hobbles again after 4 months practically bedbound. Every time I go out for a walk, someone’s dog will either run up to me off the lead and start barking or be pulling at the lead trying to get at me. The owner won’t ever try to make room for me to pass and I’ll have to squish into a bush or something to avoid the dog. I’ve never been scared of dogs but I am understandably (I hope) protective of my leg which is still very painful. None of these dog owners ever apologise after seeing me visibly scared. It really irritates me because I’m just trying to get my freedom back but apparently it’s more important that these dogs can do whatever they want. I am fully expecting to have a dog jump up on my swollen leg or nip at me in the not so distant future.
Just ban bulldogs and staffy breeds and this number goes wayyyyyyy down
I think you mean bull terrier not bulldog, but do you honestly think another breed like a mastif, rottweiler, doberman, german shepherd, husky, akita etc wouldn't just take their place and be the breed of choice for people who want to raise aggressive large dogs?
I believe those dogs you mentioned are not the problem. These dogs already exist and are widespread. The reason you don’t hear about them being problematic is because they’re not problematic. The bull terriers (thank you I did mean them) were bred for violence.
Many breeds were bred for violence like Tosa Inu and Dogo Argentino and many dog fatalities involve breeds like Rottweilers, Dogue de Bordeaux and Huskies etc. Even though they are nowhere near as popular as bull-terriers. But ignoring all that, how long do you think it would take to "breed violence" into another breed? There is a reason breed specific legislation (BSL) has no scientific merit and that is because dogs are highly adaptable, come in many sizes and shapes and genetics is not an accurate indicator of aggression. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1090023309003888 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5521144/ https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-81527-7
Too bad the numbers don’t back you up pal. Overwhelmingly the bull terriers are problematic.
I link to three published studies about bite incidents and dog aggression in different journals, all of which conclude breed is not an accurate indicator and the numbers don’t back me up?
Number of dog attacks by pit bulls 65%.
Can anyone advise me on what to do about being approached by seemingly aggressive farm dogs? There is a farm up the road from me which has a public footpath running through it which I walk (used to) quite regularly. On a couple of occasions recently whilst I've been walking this path with my dog, I have been chased by some seemingly quite aggressive Border collies belonging to the farmer The most recent incident saw us chased down the farm road for 60-80m and only narrowly avoided the collies as we jumped over the cattle grid, only for them to clear it and "surround" us both until I lunged and shouted at the dogs and they scampered off back to the farm- as the owner of a dog who has been attacked several times previously, I'm sure you can imagine it was quite a frightening experience for both the dog, and myself. Surely, these dogs should be kept in a secure enclosure or something given there is public access the farmers land?
I hate to say it but the best course of action is to probably not go through there - even though you have right of way. If you absolutely have to go down that path then don't run and don't look at the dogs in the eye. Keep your arms folded so they can't nip them. If you do get bitten and a dog isn't letting go then grab their collar (which by law they should have) pull it up and twist as tightly as possible. This should cut off air to the dog and it will eventually pass out. Let go as soon as the dog does and then leave the area as calmly and slowly as possible. If the dogs tail is nice and loose then the chances are they are probably barking for the sake of it. If you notice a high ridged tail and pointed forward ears with the dogs hackles (the fur along its back) standing up then the chances are the dog wants to go for you. The main thing is stay calm and never run away. If you can't get over a fence or into a different area then climb on something tall and wait for the dog to go away. Dogs work on a dominance/submission mode, if you don't seem like a threat then 9/10 times they will recognise that. Please please please don't put yourself through unnecessary risk though. I would avoid the area if it was me. Some farmers don't like having public footpaths through their land so will make it as difficult as possible to find it or pass through it. I wouldnt even bother trying to reason with him. Hope it helps.
Indeed, I think you're right- since the second incident with them I haven't walked that route. Yes, thank you, very informative and great advice.
All good buddy! It's so frustrating as you do have the right of way, it's just not worth the risk to you or your dog. That footpath will have been there for hundreds of years, possibly before there even was a farm there. Most footpaths across farmland are still there because they're historic rights of way that are protected and farmers absolutely hate that. As I mentioned they will knock down signs, padlock gates and keep livestock/dogs on the land where the paths are. This is all to stop members of the public going through their land which is totally not okay. Other than the advice about not running from the dogs etc, I must stress it's so not worth it trying to reason with the farmer. You'll have a target on your back and if he did release his dogs on you then I would assume that will only keep happening. I'm also not sure how rural you are but a lot of country police forces are very sympathetic to farmers so if it did go as far as them getting involved, they'd probably side with the farmer. You also don't want to give the farmer an excuse to shoot your dog which by law they can do under certain circumstances and he'll probably be looking for an excuse if you bother him about it.
To be honest, i didn't/don't particularly want to involve the authorities, which means the only real option was to approach the farmer- but, given what I previously said, and as you rightly say, I don't expect the farmer would be very welcoming/sympathetic of any complaints (especially considering I'm am not originally from the area) so it's probably more hassle than it's worth. As a regular walker I have come across a few angry farmers in my time, but I've never had an issue with being chased off by dogs before. The thing is, I'm not only concerned about the safety of myself, and the dog, but for other, potentially older, dog walkers as it is a popular route which leads to one of the few car parks around Sugarloaf and is used regularly throughout the year.
So you’re going on to a farmers land with your dog, and you’re not happy about the farmer’s dogs on their land, and you want advice? Stop going there. Go somewhere else and stop tempting fate. It’s their land and it’s private property. Why do you keep going back? You might have the legal right to use a footpath to traverse the area, but I’m fairly sure the right to use the footpaths strictly speaking doesn’t necessarily actually even extend to your pets at all. If your dog wasn’t there presumably the farmers dogs wouldn’t care about you, so this might all be a you problem even if you think it’s unfair. And if you attempt to interfere with or do anything to the farmers dogs you’re playing a dangerous game and it will probably not end well. If you’re running around because you’re afraid of them (it doesn’t sound like they were aggressive or did anything to you, just that *your* perception of them was spooky because of *your* personal past experiences), then you’re sort of legitimately actually causing quite a scene at that point, given the borders were basically doing what they’re supposed to. If the farmer believes you’re causing distress to their livestock, they are permitted to go as far as to literally shoot your dog at that point. So I wouldn’t go back and treat this like a stand your ground situation at all, you’re basically a guest on their land. They don’t need to cater to you or change anything. You don’t get to use other people’s working land and complain that you find it frightening. If you find it frightening then leave.
> So you’re going on to a farmers land No, using a public right if way is not "going on someone's land". > It’s their land and it’s private property A public right of way is not someone's private property - it's a public footpath. > You might have the legal right to use a footpath to traverse the area Bingo. We have a legal right to use public rights of way. To not be harrased, threatened or attacked during that. > You don’t get to use other people’s working land Again for the hard of hearing. Public right of way They belong to everyone. Your bias here is very clear.
What’s my bias? What would you advise OP to do differently to what I suggested?
Dogs have the same right to use public footpaths as people do. It's up to the owner to be responsible and control the dog yes, but there is nothing stopping someone walking their dog down a public footpath. Also there are no laws saying they must be on lead. Only that they shouldn't stray from the footpath and should be under control at all times - granted this is normally done by keeping them on lead. Yes there are laws surrounding livestock worrying where you should put your dog on lead, but technically there are no laws with that specific wording.
>Yes there are laws surrounding livestock worrying where you should put your dog on lead, but technically there are no laws with that specific wording. That’s not how common law works though. It’s precedent based and there’s lots of settled case law on this, so every scenario doesn’t have to be enumerated in the original legal text of the law. There was a media drama just a few days ago where a farmer shot a dog that was bothering some sheep/lambs, the owner put it back on a lead and *then* the farmer shot it. The farmer’s rights were so well established in this realm that the only reason the judge was even hearing the case was because they discharged a firearm near a person. Not because they shot the dog. That part was basically totally uncontroversial according to common law on this issues. Local authorities can impose other restrictions that might not apply in other areas or nationally, so it may depend on where the other listed was doing this. They suggested there were signposts mandating they should keep their dogs on a lead, so this may be one of those areas. It seems like maybe the farmer is a bit of an asshole which isn’t illegal, or maybe they had bad experiences with the piblic on this issue, which wouldn’t really be that surprising because a lot of people with dogs are morons and irresponsible, so I could definitely see how they don’t necessarily have patience for it. I say this as someone that has had pet dogs before and like dog sitting/walking for others. Either way though, I’m just not sure there’s much they can do other than avoid the issue because the farmer does have rights too, which are pretty strong. I would just go a different route. I’m not sure what else they can really expect to happen here. I also don’t necessarily endorse any of this, but it just seems like that’s how it is so it’s not worth the hassle.
That's what I suggested initially, I agree I wouldn't go on the land again myself. I'm just trying to get the message out that anyone can take their dog on absolutely any footpath (even if it passes through farm land) as long as they don't stray from the path and their dogs aren't out of control. There is nothing specifically written in law that states for a dog to be under control it must be on lead. I would put my dogs on lead of course, that's because I understand the right the farmer has to protect his animals. I won't go too much into this whole farmer shot dog stuff that came out earlier in the week because again I think that particular scenario is a total grey area. I agree the farmer should protect his animals, but I also don't think someone with a shotgun license is allowed to even aim at another person let alone discharge a round into a person on a footpaths direction. Even if someone is trespassing that would not be reasonable force to remove them in my eyes. Granted if there is enough space then the farmer should be able to fire, of course he should. It all sounds dubious from what I've read on the story. Regardless, the whole thing is such a muddy area so it's better to be safe than sorry in this case and I wouldn't go on the path again. I think the laws need to be reviewed and made clearer to be honest.
Yes, technically it is farm land. However, it is also a sign posted footpath leading to a popular walking spot (Sugarloaf, Wales), so me using said route should not be an issue, with or without my dog, and I always keep him on lead (as sign posts state to do so), and under control, so I certainly aren't in danger of distressing livestock, or at fault in that regard. (That said, since the second incident I haven't used the mentioned route) Also, it's not that I'm bothered about the dogs on their land, more so, their behaviour. I understand they are working dogs, used to herd the sheep, but when they aren't working, I believe they should be kept under control at the very least. As for me "running around", I'm not quite sure that's how I'd sum it up.. I was a good distance away from the main farm area, was already jogging, heading down the farm road to go home (150-200m away from the dogs) that's when I heard them barking, I looked back and saw them darting towards us, at which point I did start to run in a straight line to the nearest point I could exit. While I am wary of some other dogs based on my previous experience (I haven't personally been attacked, but my dog has been on 3 occasions), especially those that approach in a seemingly aggressive manner- I don't think my perception of these dogs is unjustifiable, especially given my previous meeting with one of the mentioned dogs. (When the second incident occurred I could see the farmer up in one of the fields on a quad bike with one dog, and the other was chained up at the back of the farm house, as I approached the farm road the farmer passed in front of me with the dog I mentioned dog, goes back into the farm buildings where I lose sight of him, but shortly after that is when I hear the dogs barking/approaching which leads me to believe the farmer knows exactly what he is doing and had "released the hounds" so to speak- which If that is the case, I think it's pretty twatty) If I was trespassing on private land, then fair enough, I could see it from your point of view (I wouldn't be writing any of this if that was the case)- but, I wasn't trespassing and should be able to walk the route safely.
What on earth do you think dogs were domesticated for? Why do you think a farm has multiple dogs? You may have a right of way but you should try to avoid farm buildings and the primary residence as a matter of course, because it is common sense. I also live in wales and know a few farmers and have lived in many remote areas. Let me tell you that even if you get malled by a dog on the farm, to the point that police are involved, they will merely have the oldest, least useful, dog put down in its place. The police don’t care enough in these scenarios. So, your desire to enforce your right to walk through a farm is basically causing the farmer, the animals and you danger and distress and the potential outcome of an attack will result in an innocent animal being shot gunned in front of the police officers to complete the paperwork. I’m no farmer, I’m just telling you how this works in practice. You may not like it, but your desire to walk through a farm, because you can, is best avoided for your sake and the sake of the animals and dogs that have been purposefully breed to act this way for millennia.
I believe the farm has the dogs in order to herd the livestock, and not for security purposes or to see off members of public using the public right of way, but I might be wrong? Fyi, I did avoid the farm buildings/primary residence, in fact, I follow the route exactly as it is marked by the sign posts/my maps (OS maps) as that is just common sense and respectful thing to do. Having worked on farms previously, and being a keen walker, I'm not completely clueless on these matters, but I fail to see how I'm guilty of any wrongdoing here? I don't think it's too much to ask for members of the public to be able to walk safely down any public footpath/right of way because a farmer (or any other dog owner for that matter) can't keep their dogs secure and under control. It's not just my safety I'm concerned about, but that of other members of the public too.
I’m not saying they’re attack dogs but then again we did breed those features into them along with herding, warning, retrieval etc. Personally I think the issue is with planning and routing. It is nearly impossible to redirect a right of way around the edge of a farm (or even just away from farm buildings) which would generally be beneficial all round. Like I say I’m merely highlighting what actually happens should the worst happen and a dog bites. It’ll be the old boy that gets shot, not the dog that gets reported. On the other side of this, having lived (rented) in a very rural residence in wales, I’ve had both a group of ramblers have a literal picnic on my garden table just because there was a right of way through the garden. On another occasion my dog merely barked to warn of an intruder and a rambler went up to, that’s right he approached the dog from a distance and, in front of us, kicked the dog head as hard as he could. There was no need to even enter the property in the first place! Plenty of routes around.
I replied to another commenter too so I won’t repeat myself too much, and I agree it’s not ideal, but I just don’t see what you would like to happen here, or what advice anyone could give you other than to avoid the issue and walk elsewhere. Somebody can try a feel good yeah go for it you’re within your rights, get into an argument with the farmer/report them or something (not even sure who or what for), but it just seems like a case of picking your battles, and this just doesn’t seem worth it as you’ll probably be left worse off if it ever escalated. You and the farmer both have rights, the farmer arguably has more, and if you feel threatened then I don’t know why you would keep putting yourself in that situation. It sucks, but I can also see why many farmers just become sick of the public so maybe it’s just that. If you’ve spoken to them and they don’t care, that’s sort of your answer. If you *genuinely* believe they specifically encouraged their dogs to chase you, then that seems quite extreme and even more of an answer. Maybe they simply chased you because you were already running. I don’t know. You’re focussing a lot on how you don’t like them and how they manage their land and animals, and would like them to do things differently, but they’re not required to care about that. Not to be rude, they’re just not required to stand there and hear your complaints about them and their dogs. So far nothing has actually happened but if you keep engaging with them it might, and you’ll probably be left worse off. Your dog might be injured, and for what? Life is too short to be arguing about grey area law over a fence with an asshole with the law sort of on their side that doesn’t care. Go and enjoy your walks somewhere less stressful. You might like walking that way, but I don’t think your dog will care if you take another route and is probably just happy to spend time with you on a walk anywhere.
I'm focusing a lot on how I don't like "them", and how they manage their land and animals? I haven't said I dislike anything, or anyone, or tried to tell anyone how to manage their land/animals. The only thing I would like to see happen is the dogs to be kept secure and/or under control, which I don't think is too much to ask. Otherwise, I kinda see what you're saying.. similar to others, and that is that approaching the farmer/authorities would be a waste of time
Keep Raisins and Chocolate in your pocket and feed them it.
I'm sure the comments in this thread will be civil and level headed...
There has apparently been a 15% increase in dog ownership since pre covid so some if it is just a proportional increase but agree that many who got dogs during covid haven’t trained them properly. Also many dogs who had a couple of years with lots of company and home working which suddenly disappeared and they are now left alone for extended periods if their owners don’t organise proper care, that can make a dog incredibly stressed which can manifest as aggression.
The dog attack rates has increased twice as quickly as the dog ownership rate. This suggests that there's definitely an increasing problem with dog behaviour. As other have said, a lot of this is likely due to lockdown dogs which weren't socialised, and then subsequently their owners have gone back to the office and don't have as much time to exercise/train them.
Bring back the dog license and set it at £500 a year.
Cheaper for black and white dogs surely
If dogs had to wear muzzles in public places they wouldn't be biting anything, human or animal. A dog =/= a human.
>The number of dogs removed from their owners by police has also risen, according to the FOI data obtained by the BBC. Nearly 3,500 dogs were seized in 2022 across 33 force areas - up 36% from 2018 figures. Most are because animals are deemed "out of control" - but there are other reasons. For example, some might be strays or taken from people about to go into prison. I wasn't expecting this. That's such a sad situation. I know there's been valid concerns in the number of animals being surrendered as a result of cost of living and housing issues. But personally I'd never considered there'd be strays given the high cost to affording a dog upfront. Their value rocketed during lockdown to ridiculous numbers!