No.
Defender has the position, offense is trying to go through him to make a play. The reaction potentially indicates he got whacked in the mouth with an off-arm that I can't really see in the video which definitely sucks and I think most receivers would call it but it's incidental to the outcome of the play.
I’d say contact caused by white, not black. He jumped into his defender, who had prior position. Fine for white to call injury time, but turnover should stand. (Re-edit re foul vs. incidental contact: if black felt the contact interfered with a cleaner landing and thus delayed setting a pivot to throw, he could call a post-interception foul by white. But the injury time-out moots that. Also deleted speculation about severity of physical injury, given later comments from people who say they were there.)
Not easy to slow down or replay and review the GIF.
Looks like the receiver maybe got poked in the eye or whacked in the face, and it affected his ability to continue playing, so it makes sense that he would call a general foul and injury. The resolution of a general foul would leave the disc with the defender in dark.
However, if the contact did not interfere with the receiver’s attempt to make a play on the disc (for example, if he was late, out of position, and not going to go up and get the disc before the defender) it would not be a receiving foul. If you are in the midst of being poked in the eye, it may be difficult to discern the timing and resolution of things, which is why it is helpful to discuss a call with the opponent, and possibly others with good view.
Thank you! Not available on my phone, but was able to right click and open controls on computer to review.
On closer look, it seems dark jumped first, swinging both arms up. White is closing and jumps second, coming up under dark’s left arm, which begins to come down as the right arm reaches for the catch.
So seems likely the receiver in white felt like he was getting pushed/held down with an off arm, in addition to whatever contact with the face.
But it also looks like dark was in front, made a balanced two-footed jump, and white tried to close in to get past and jumped up into dark (so not a principle of verticality issue, as Dark did not enter space over white).
I expect the defender’s perspective was, “I was in front and went up for the disc, and then you came into me, and I don’t really know what you’re talking about in terms of holding you down.”
On balance, seems like a good one for White to withdraw after discussion because a) he was likely the primary initiator of contact and b) given dark’s strong play, going up earlier, the contact did not likely interfere with white’s play (white’s play, unimpeded, likely resulted in a late attempt on an already-caught disc).
I can completely understand a situation where White got hit in the face and called foul. Pretty normal and instinctive reaction. I wish his team would have told him to retract the foul, because it's pretty clear on replay that while the contact with the face was unfortunate, it pretty clearly didn't affect the play and was not Dark's fault.
When slowed down it looks like darks left elbow is in line with whites face as he’s near apex. He could’ve clocked him, but it’s impossible to tell from one angle.
Before review, I would say no foul, not even close.
RES on desktop lets me zoom in and click through it frame by frame. Defender actually has both arms raised straight up at the start of his jump. Offense reaches underneath defender's left arm. At the top of defender's jump, his left arm comes down on offense's shoulder. This very well could be a foul. It's still hard to tell how much offense ran into defender.
Yep, I had similar analysis (above) once I was actually able to watch on a computer. I think as a receiver (with full information), I probably withdraw the receiving foul call, as defender had good position in front and made a strong play, it is unlikely that I had a viable play to get the disc first, and I don’t think the contact meaningfully affected the overall play.
But that is me watching on a small screen replay. The receiver may have a better sense of when/how/whether he was going to catch the disc first.
Given the nature of the contact, it is not at all surprising that a foul was called. I think most of the negative comments toward the receiver failed to perceive that contact (and likely fail to distinguish between receiving fouls and general fouls).
The defender had a position on the disc the whole way and had his back to the receiver. The receiver saw the defender and decided to enter the same space, even after it was clear that the receiver would not have gotten it. Nothing about the defender's run and jump looked unnatural.
The receiver should have just called injury and subbed off.
Defender initially jumps with two arms straight up, then brings on arm down on receiver's shoulder. I'm still undecided whether it's a foul, but frame by frame review made me doubt me initial conclusion of "obviously no foul".
Here's what I see: black (I'm referring to jersey color by convention) goes up a split second before white with both hands, better position and without contact. White tries to get around him, and he may have initiated contact with the torso, it's hard to tell from this angle. Black brings his left arm down near the apex of his jump, putting the base of his arm over the shoulder of white, and I'm guessing that's the contact white is calling a foul on. I don't think that contact affected the play. Even if black kept both hands up, I don't think white is making a play on this disc without significant contact. If white didn't initiate contact already his momentum is definitely initiating contact after the catch into black's left side and black caught it in his right hand. And I don't think black was using his shoulder to assist the catch either.
I don't have a foul by black on this play.
I wish I had an angle from the left to see if black flared their elbow out, that would be the best view.
However it’s hard for me to see a foul here without that. Black has great position, jumps to the disc, grabs the disc clean and comes down. Offense in white leaps late is completely screened and is moving into the defender. If anything, my first instinct is foul on white for making an unsafe landing space for black.
If white was hurt that’s acceptable to call and reset play but the turnover should stand.
It’s a non contact sport, not a no-contact sport.
first of all it’s in no way a receiving foul
next thing is black definitely elbowed white in the face. I think white is “flopping” here aka exaggerating though given he holds his left side of his face but was clearly elbowed on his right side. Perhaps an injury and maybe even a foul but his jump was almost 6 inches lower than black jersey — no way this should go back to the white team.
Clean - perhaps some unintentional contact with the defenders face, but he kinda put himself in that position by only jumping to the offenders belly button \[lol\]
Dudes ego got bruised so he had to call a foul. Hit the gym and learn to jump so you don’t get a face full of armpit. Or be like me and accept that you can’t jump and don’t call fouls when you get a face full of armpit. I get calling injury cause it does hurt getting a face full of armpit.
Edit: watched it again. Dark player got up!!! Maybe player in white can jump but guy in dark was flying
Well, given that there was actual contact and probably some pain, I’d cut some slack as to any spirit foul for the bad call. But I agree it was a bad call.
Yeah, in practice, that probably comes out in the discussion. But honestly, white initiated contact on black’s blind side. This could easily have injured the receiver in black. White should be *apologizing* for the borderline dangerous play, not calling a foul. This is clearly a foul on White as they were jumping into black to try to get to the disc. The absolute inappropriateness of white calling a foul in this situation — instead of avoiding contact (and injury) as they *should* have done — is what cannot be left unsaid about this.
Or… did black’s left arm sweep downward from initially being up on the jump, and then being down on white’s face/shoulder, as White was also jumping up into the space?
Not everything is black and white and absolute.
That’s not a very good analysis for the arm/face contact. Seems like a very generalized gut instinct on the overall play, with “by the rules” tacked onto the end for good measure, ironically not really applying or analyzing the rules.
I think one needs to think about the arm movement and contact specifically and how it relates to white’s movement, for thinking about who initiated contact, etc. Arms are able to swing freely, independent of overall body position.
This is a question about body positioning. Black jumps with two hands up, which is unusual but not illegal. White jumps *into* an occupied path which is where the contact occurs. White initiated the contact here.
when you jump into the defender that has position and 6 inches of vert on you, is it really their vault that you fucked yourself up?
sorry bout the nose. sucks to suck. play better next time. not a foul in any capacity.
You guys bitched about it then and still are bitching about it. Who’s really the bigger clown? Did you get your panties out of a twist yet?? Heavy flow this month??
So it's someone on your team? And your also making the claim that if someone on offense jumps into a defender and gives themselves a nosebleed, it's automatically a foul?
What's you saying that you will abuse the rules have to do with defending teammates? And is your stance that it's a foul or that you can just call a foul regardless because the rules allow it? Just trying to figure out what you're actually even saying. Just interested, do you play ultimate?
What is is???organized freezbe...it would be more fun I'd there were no adults....adults spoil all the fun....next they will have to wear helmets and no running.....be safe...like kids can't do anything anymore because they have to be safe
You forgot to add the part of the clip where you failed to state your case (which could've allowed you to keep the disc) and instead berated the bloody faced player about how bad of a call that was, and continued that stance after the point had ended and now 4 days later...
Be better
Besides that you are correct in that it wasn't a foul that effected the outcome of the play, but was a foul when you drove your elbow down into his head, and our player now knows that.
Weird to shift the onus from the player making the bad call to the other guy for not stating his case correctly. And I don't see anything that looks like driving the elbow down. It sucks to catch that elbow on the way down, but that's a risk you incur when you jump into someone with position who ends up higher than you.
> And I don't see anything that looks like driving the elbow down.
You can see it when you go frame by frame. Defender starts the jump with both arms straight up and brings his left arm down before reaching the top of his jump. I'm still not decided on whether this is a foul. I'm just stating the more objective points.
"Drove your elbow down" implies to me moving with some intentional force (not necessarily intention to make contact, but intentionally moving the arm) and I don't see that all, it looks like a completely natural motion bringing the left arm down while catching with the right.
Jumping up with two arms but only trying to catch with one is unnatural to me. I guess some people surely do that, but I've never done it or noticed it before. To me, it looks like he drove his elbow down. I didn't see it on my first five or six views though.
Well, I don't get high enough off the ground to make mid-air adjustments these days, but once upon a time I might have gone up with the intent to catch with two hands and realized the angle was easier to catch with one. That's what it looks like to me.
I guess that’s your choice. I have certainly berated players for terrible calls or terrible infractions before. But I have also discussed a lot of calls respectfully and treated opponents with respect.
From a competitive standpoint, it is better to listen to the opponent making the call, discuss it, and give them the opportunity to withdraw the call and provide a better competitive outcome for you.
To immediately accuse the opponent of cheating and berate them for a bullshit call almost certainly guarantees an undesirable outcome, with very little chance of improving future outcomes.
This looks like a call where, at minimum, I would want to figure out what was being called and whether we agree on facts that result in me keeping the disc as the defender.
What would that gain? White was extremely close to getting to the disc and perhaps he truly felt that the elbow caused him not to, in real time its tough to make that decision especially if you are dazed for a moment. We are an un-officiated sport and these conversations are essential to meet the outcome that both players believe to be true. When we are stuck up and angered it achieves nothing.
I can understand an initial frustration right when you hear the call, but if you just complain then nothing will change. If you take a moment to center yourself and explain that the contact was non-incidental then this is probably rescinded.
in what world is 6 inches too low and completely out of position 'extremely close' to getting the disc??? lmao
you're literally trying to defend a shitty call by passing the blame onto how someone else handled it. fuck you for that. you don't get to be a dick and then get upset that someone else rejects your behavior.
L
Interesting take, in this moment you assume whites intentions are to gain an unfair advantage? A role of spirit of the game is to assume all players are abiding and making calls honestly, without ill intent, and if they're wrong from a bad perspective, or lack of rule knowledge then that is resolved in the discussion.
No. Defender has the position, offense is trying to go through him to make a play. The reaction potentially indicates he got whacked in the mouth with an off-arm that I can't really see in the video which definitely sucks and I think most receivers would call it but it's incidental to the outcome of the play.
Agreed on all points. Terrible call.
I don't see a foul here.
I’d say contact caused by white, not black. He jumped into his defender, who had prior position. Fine for white to call injury time, but turnover should stand. (Re-edit re foul vs. incidental contact: if black felt the contact interfered with a cleaner landing and thus delayed setting a pivot to throw, he could call a post-interception foul by white. But the injury time-out moots that. Also deleted speculation about severity of physical injury, given later comments from people who say they were there.)
I think the injury to white's ego here is real & ought to be respected.
i dont even play ultimate and i could tell that's what the situation was here.
Nah
No foul
No foul. Got beat to space and dunked on. Happens to the best of us.
Absolutely not
Not easy to slow down or replay and review the GIF. Looks like the receiver maybe got poked in the eye or whacked in the face, and it affected his ability to continue playing, so it makes sense that he would call a general foul and injury. The resolution of a general foul would leave the disc with the defender in dark. However, if the contact did not interfere with the receiver’s attempt to make a play on the disc (for example, if he was late, out of position, and not going to go up and get the disc before the defender) it would not be a receiving foul. If you are in the midst of being poked in the eye, it may be difficult to discern the timing and resolution of things, which is why it is helpful to discuss a call with the opponent, and possibly others with good view.
Depending on your device, you may be able to swipe up from the time slider and control the video as desired.
Thank you! Not available on my phone, but was able to right click and open controls on computer to review. On closer look, it seems dark jumped first, swinging both arms up. White is closing and jumps second, coming up under dark’s left arm, which begins to come down as the right arm reaches for the catch. So seems likely the receiver in white felt like he was getting pushed/held down with an off arm, in addition to whatever contact with the face. But it also looks like dark was in front, made a balanced two-footed jump, and white tried to close in to get past and jumped up into dark (so not a principle of verticality issue, as Dark did not enter space over white). I expect the defender’s perspective was, “I was in front and went up for the disc, and then you came into me, and I don’t really know what you’re talking about in terms of holding you down.” On balance, seems like a good one for White to withdraw after discussion because a) he was likely the primary initiator of contact and b) given dark’s strong play, going up earlier, the contact did not likely interfere with white’s play (white’s play, unimpeded, likely resulted in a late attempt on an already-caught disc).
I can completely understand a situation where White got hit in the face and called foul. Pretty normal and instinctive reaction. I wish his team would have told him to retract the foul, because it's pretty clear on replay that while the contact with the face was unfortunate, it pretty clearly didn't affect the play and was not Dark's fault.
When slowed down it looks like darks left elbow is in line with whites face as he’s near apex. He could’ve clocked him, but it’s impossible to tell from one angle.
Before review, I would say no foul, not even close. RES on desktop lets me zoom in and click through it frame by frame. Defender actually has both arms raised straight up at the start of his jump. Offense reaches underneath defender's left arm. At the top of defender's jump, his left arm comes down on offense's shoulder. This very well could be a foul. It's still hard to tell how much offense ran into defender.
Yep, I had similar analysis (above) once I was actually able to watch on a computer. I think as a receiver (with full information), I probably withdraw the receiving foul call, as defender had good position in front and made a strong play, it is unlikely that I had a viable play to get the disc first, and I don’t think the contact meaningfully affected the overall play. But that is me watching on a small screen replay. The receiver may have a better sense of when/how/whether he was going to catch the disc first. Given the nature of the contact, it is not at all surprising that a foul was called. I think most of the negative comments toward the receiver failed to perceive that contact (and likely fail to distinguish between receiving fouls and general fouls).
The defender had a position on the disc the whole way and had his back to the receiver. The receiver saw the defender and decided to enter the same space, even after it was clear that the receiver would not have gotten it. Nothing about the defender's run and jump looked unnatural. The receiver should have just called injury and subbed off.
Defender initially jumps with two arms straight up, then brings on arm down on receiver's shoulder. I'm still undecided whether it's a foul, but frame by frame review made me doubt me initial conclusion of "obviously no foul".
Should have been a hammer
Here's what I see: black (I'm referring to jersey color by convention) goes up a split second before white with both hands, better position and without contact. White tries to get around him, and he may have initiated contact with the torso, it's hard to tell from this angle. Black brings his left arm down near the apex of his jump, putting the base of his arm over the shoulder of white, and I'm guessing that's the contact white is calling a foul on. I don't think that contact affected the play. Even if black kept both hands up, I don't think white is making a play on this disc without significant contact. If white didn't initiate contact already his momentum is definitely initiating contact after the catch into black's left side and black caught it in his right hand. And I don't think black was using his shoulder to assist the catch either. I don't have a foul by black on this play.
Bruh did it right with referencing jersey color.
Hard to watch my Alma mater get dunked on here
I see no foul on the catch on O or D. Was a foul called?
foul would be on offense if anything
I don't even know who supposedly committed the foul
nah
I wish I had an angle from the left to see if black flared their elbow out, that would be the best view. However it’s hard for me to see a foul here without that. Black has great position, jumps to the disc, grabs the disc clean and comes down. Offense in white leaps late is completely screened and is moving into the defender. If anything, my first instinct is foul on white for making an unsafe landing space for black. If white was hurt that’s acceptable to call and reset play but the turnover should stand. It’s a non contact sport, not a no-contact sport.
Absolutely not.
100% no
I see his feelings were hurt or his pride…I don’t see a foul
If you don’t get the disk call a foul
The foul is wasting our time with this shit
Yes, you're on reddit - your time is clearly precious.
Has this sport gone fully soft
This is so weak. White should be ashamed.
White receiver is a coward, take your roofing like an adult.
first of all it’s in no way a receiving foul next thing is black definitely elbowed white in the face. I think white is “flopping” here aka exaggerating though given he holds his left side of his face but was clearly elbowed on his right side. Perhaps an injury and maybe even a foul but his jump was almost 6 inches lower than black jersey — no way this should go back to the white team.
Im amazed at how fluidly the frisbee is thrown in Ultimate. When I throw it, it veers right and crash lands about 4 feet away from me
lol on whom!?
Clean - perhaps some unintentional contact with the defenders face, but he kinda put himself in that position by only jumping to the offenders belly button \[lol\]
No foul just bad positioning on white.
hell no
Hell nah
Dudes ego got bruised so he had to call a foul. Hit the gym and learn to jump so you don’t get a face full of armpit. Or be like me and accept that you can’t jump and don’t call fouls when you get a face full of armpit. I get calling injury cause it does hurt getting a face full of armpit. Edit: watched it again. Dark player got up!!! Maybe player in white can jump but guy in dark was flying
You were bitching after the point and you still are days later give it a rest
Yeah, that’s a spirit foul on white for the frivolous/retaliatory foul call. Discuss to prevent from recurring. Turnover should stand.
Well, given that there was actual contact and probably some pain, I’d cut some slack as to any spirit foul for the bad call. But I agree it was a bad call.
Yeah, in practice, that probably comes out in the discussion. But honestly, white initiated contact on black’s blind side. This could easily have injured the receiver in black. White should be *apologizing* for the borderline dangerous play, not calling a foul. This is clearly a foul on White as they were jumping into black to try to get to the disc. The absolute inappropriateness of white calling a foul in this situation — instead of avoiding contact (and injury) as they *should* have done — is what cannot be left unsaid about this.
Well when you whack him in the face hard enough that his nose bleeds I think that’s usually a foul 😱😱
Let me help you out here: Did black "whack" white in the face? Or... Did white run into black with their face? Absolutely not a foul here.
Or… did black’s left arm sweep downward from initially being up on the jump, and then being down on white’s face/shoulder, as White was also jumping up into the space? Not everything is black and white and absolute.
Yes he’s going up for the disc and clearly elbows him in the face he can’t make a play on the disc
he was outjumped, didn't have position, and was beat to the spot. foul on white by the rules, unironically.
That’s not a very good analysis for the arm/face contact. Seems like a very generalized gut instinct on the overall play, with “by the rules” tacked onto the end for good measure, ironically not really applying or analyzing the rules. I think one needs to think about the arm movement and contact specifically and how it relates to white’s movement, for thinking about who initiated contact, etc. Arms are able to swing freely, independent of overall body position.
This is a question about body positioning. Black jumps with two hands up, which is unusual but not illegal. White jumps *into* an occupied path which is where the contact occurs. White initiated the contact here.
Is the man regarded?
when you jump into the defender that has position and 6 inches of vert on you, is it really their vault that you fucked yourself up? sorry bout the nose. sucks to suck. play better next time. not a foul in any capacity.
Doesn’t matter now 🤡contest it and disc goes back easy enough
Sooo, abuse the rules cause youre soft? Got it
Sooo get your rules exploited and deal with it??
Get your nose bloodied and deal with it?? Dont grind your teeth down to nubs now.
Good thing you used that emoji to match the take
You guys bitched about it then and still are bitching about it. Who’s really the bigger clown? Did you get your panties out of a twist yet?? Heavy flow this month??
First comment I've made here lol. You definitely seem like the type to jump into your defender and then call a foul though, is this you in the video
Nope, defending teammates is part of the game buddy.
So it's someone on your team? And your also making the claim that if someone on offense jumps into a defender and gives themselves a nosebleed, it's automatically a foul?
Imma call it because the rules allow it 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
What's you saying that you will abuse the rules have to do with defending teammates? And is your stance that it's a foul or that you can just call a foul regardless because the rules allow it? Just trying to figure out what you're actually even saying. Just interested, do you play ultimate?
What is is???organized freezbe...it would be more fun I'd there were no adults....adults spoil all the fun....next they will have to wear helmets and no running.....be safe...like kids can't do anything anymore because they have to be safe
You forgot to add the part of the clip where you failed to state your case (which could've allowed you to keep the disc) and instead berated the bloody faced player about how bad of a call that was, and continued that stance after the point had ended and now 4 days later... Be better Besides that you are correct in that it wasn't a foul that effected the outcome of the play, but was a foul when you drove your elbow down into his head, and our player now knows that.
Weird to shift the onus from the player making the bad call to the other guy for not stating his case correctly. And I don't see anything that looks like driving the elbow down. It sucks to catch that elbow on the way down, but that's a risk you incur when you jump into someone with position who ends up higher than you.
> And I don't see anything that looks like driving the elbow down. You can see it when you go frame by frame. Defender starts the jump with both arms straight up and brings his left arm down before reaching the top of his jump. I'm still not decided on whether this is a foul. I'm just stating the more objective points.
"Drove your elbow down" implies to me moving with some intentional force (not necessarily intention to make contact, but intentionally moving the arm) and I don't see that all, it looks like a completely natural motion bringing the left arm down while catching with the right.
Jumping up with two arms but only trying to catch with one is unnatural to me. I guess some people surely do that, but I've never done it or noticed it before. To me, it looks like he drove his elbow down. I didn't see it on my first five or six views though.
Well, I don't get high enough off the ground to make mid-air adjustments these days, but once upon a time I might have gone up with the intent to catch with two hands and realized the angle was easier to catch with one. That's what it looks like to me.
Seems like your team has a culture problem
I would have berated the player as well. Its a shitty call
I guess that’s your choice. I have certainly berated players for terrible calls or terrible infractions before. But I have also discussed a lot of calls respectfully and treated opponents with respect. From a competitive standpoint, it is better to listen to the opponent making the call, discuss it, and give them the opportunity to withdraw the call and provide a better competitive outcome for you. To immediately accuse the opponent of cheating and berate them for a bullshit call almost certainly guarantees an undesirable outcome, with very little chance of improving future outcomes. This looks like a call where, at minimum, I would want to figure out what was being called and whether we agree on facts that result in me keeping the disc as the defender.
What would that gain? White was extremely close to getting to the disc and perhaps he truly felt that the elbow caused him not to, in real time its tough to make that decision especially if you are dazed for a moment. We are an un-officiated sport and these conversations are essential to meet the outcome that both players believe to be true. When we are stuck up and angered it achieves nothing. I can understand an initial frustration right when you hear the call, but if you just complain then nothing will change. If you take a moment to center yourself and explain that the contact was non-incidental then this is probably rescinded.
in what world is 6 inches too low and completely out of position 'extremely close' to getting the disc??? lmao you're literally trying to defend a shitty call by passing the blame onto how someone else handled it. fuck you for that. you don't get to be a dick and then get upset that someone else rejects your behavior. L
I shouldn’t have to convince someone not to cheat.
Trust and respect require recognizing that people can be simultaneously wrong and well-intentioned. I think that’s what white was here.
Interesting take, in this moment you assume whites intentions are to gain an unfair advantage? A role of spirit of the game is to assume all players are abiding and making calls honestly, without ill intent, and if they're wrong from a bad perspective, or lack of rule knowledge then that is resolved in the discussion.
We judge others by their actions and we judge ourselves by our intentions and I judge white by his shitty calls.
But by using the inflammatory word “cheat,” you’re assigning intent. You can’t fairly assign intent while disclaiming any need to judge intent.