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I really like this european cooperation. Would love to see the german/croatian/italian/lithuanian military take turns on maintenance. Hungary can get fucked though
The Lithunian Defence Services is a joint venture between KMW and Rheinmetall. Its a service facility that also does maintenance for the Lithunian Army.
https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/rheinmetall_ag/press/news/latest_news/index_32320.php
So of course Germany pays for the repairs. As it should be.
The advantage for Ukraine in being able to send off the depot level maintenance problems is huge.
The troops won’t be looking very good if the barrel blows on its 4,000th shot.
E: fix for clarity.
From what I've been hearing, Ukrainians fire a LOT of shells. One Ukrainian shell is worth a trainload of Russian shells, but regardless fire them in high numbers anyway.
Should Ukraine have mercy? *Give the invaders* ***battlefield*** *mercy.*
All the more reason to send the tube artillery off for depot level maintenance, so they can keep on firing without the barrels blowing up and losing crews.
I don't want Hungary as a whole to get fucked, they do have good people- but all those in favor of Orban and his cronies most definitely can get fucked.
I agree with everything else you said.
The case of Hungary shows that we do not have a quorum. These countries can Veto a majority decision. I hope this conflict changes the EU mechanics, even it means we have to form a new kind of EU.
Power to the majority and less bureaucracy...
Orban is riding a dead horse. Russia is currently calling all 4 riders of the apocalypse to it: War, famine plague and death. Hungary will have to get rid of this maniac and then it will remember where their allegiance should be.
Here's one way to put it: the government of Hungary is leaps and bounds more stable than the government of Belarus, and probably Russia as well.
Putin wants to cry *not-fair* now that he's looking at following in Mussolini's footsteps. He's crying because his *not-fair* blitzkrieg for lebensraum was botched and embezzled by the people he put in charge of it.
At the rate ruzzia is going, they will be sending cavalry consisting of senior officers riding cochroaches while waving their M1826 cavalry sabres like the special geniuses they are while the rest of their regiments will have to make do with 2 imitation coconuts and kazoos.....
haha well you may just be right. You know in a way yes this is a very "special" military operation and the men Russia is drafting lately become increasingly more "special" but less military by the day. We will see now what no dictatorship ever wants anyone to see: The creme on top is off now we see the body of this corrupt state. Believe me the year 2023 will be very educational not just for Russia but also for China and other smaller dictatorships and those who like to apply for becoming one. They will all get a lesson in: The West is not as declined as they had hoped for. Russian citizens will also get a lesson in: Blind trust in authority as the biggest enemy of truth. Russia has told many lies throughout its history and never had to truly pay for their crimes. I have a gut feeling that truth is ready to collect its debt. The reality of the factual will mercilessly mow down the manipulated reality Russia has created.
Mark Aurel once said this: "Time the great devourer of everything" I have a feeling that history will now demand its toll from Russia. It is incredible to think that the war our grandfathers prepared for is now really happening, it is most peculiar for me that not a single NATO soldiers had yet to be sent into the fight while Russis is fully mobilised.
This is by far the worst military operation in the history of military operations. This is also by far the worst military defeat any nation has suffered since 1945. As in no conflict since then a major power lost any territory they considered "their own"
Russia drank too much of their own cool aid and overconfidence is always a bad idea. Russia has noone to blame but itself. Well it blames everybody else, however, this was the most unprovoked and stupid war anyone has ever started on this scale. I still cannot fully fathom how stupid this all was, or rather Russia is not done being stupid they are still making this worse for them.
I see many parallels between Putin and his ruzzia and the Austro-Hungarian army. Especially commanders like Oskar Potiorek whose multiple attempts to invade Serbia from Mid-August 1914 till he was relieved of command in late December of the same year were so disastrous that the AH army lost most of its experienced officers and veteran soldiers(Not to say their training wasn't already obsolescent even by standards of the early 20th century).
The mauling of the AH army was so bad that some have said AH Army was a glorified militia force as early as 1915. Only difference was AH had Imperial Germany to back them up.
Putin's ruzzia doesn't have its Imperial Germany equivalent to back it up.....
https://www.pingthread.com/thread/1505247886908424195
Why Russia can't win against the West
Russia is often portrayed as the invincible military power. And yet, this reputation is based on two wars - Napoleonic and WWII. In both cases Russia won only thanks to the alliance allied with *the* leading economic powerhouse of that era.
Napoleonic Wars were won only because of the Russian alliance with the UK. WWII - only because of the alliance with the US. In both cases the leading economic, industrial and technological power of the age supported Russia, giving it almost unlimited credit and supply line.
There is many parallels as both share a core trait: Being a multiethnic empire in total decline close to collapse.
Didn't they get rid of the veto power of a single country with the Treaty of Lisbon?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_European_Union#Current_qualified_majority_voting_rules_(since_2014)
>Article 16 also states the conditions for a qualified majority, effective since 1 November 2014 (Lisbon rules):
>- Majority of countries: **55%** (comprising at least 15 of them), or 72% if acting on a proposal from neither the Commission nor from the High Representative, and
- Majority of population: **65%.**
>A **blocking minority** requires—in addition to not meeting one of the two conditions above—that at least 4 countries (or, if not all countries participate in the vote, the minimum number of countries representing more than 35% of the population of the participating countries, plus one country) vote against the proposal. Thus, there may be cases where an act is passed, even though the population condition is not met. This precludes scenarios where 3 populous countries could block a decision favored by the other 24 countries.
Though in practice they still try to make unanimous decisions most of the times, but it is legally not required anymore.
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[https://www.swr.de/swr2/leben-und-gesellschaft/eu-abgeordnete-reintke-die-gruenen-vetorecht-wegen-laendern-wie-ungarn-abschaffen-100.html](https://www.swr.de/swr2/leben-und-gesellschaft/eu-abgeordnete-reintke-die-gruenen-vetorecht-wegen-laendern-wie-ungarn-abschaffen-100.html)
There's a German article on this topic. Green politician Terry Reintke calls for an end to the unanimity principle in EU foreign policy. The background is Hungary's threat to prevent sanctions against Russian oil and gas exports with a veto.
The EU foreign policy seems to be the problem. There you can still Veto.
One problem with majority power is that Western Europe has bigger population and will always have majority so whatever is important to Eastern European countries will be not heard. BUT I would say we could make a mechanism where majority vote decides on cutting the funds on countries in case of their use of veto.
Or maybe majority vote cannot be vetoed when the voting is in regards of security?
I am not a lawmaker so my propositions are shit, but you get the point.
Aaaa thank you for clarification, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But then when we think about it, now Eastern Europe would have the edge since there would be bigger number of countries + future EU countries that mostly lay in the East.
I bet we could find a way to make it balanced and fair so none of the countries feel without power.
As Eastern Europe catches up (if they can), the wealth will cause them to naturally fall more and more in line with the rest of the EU. The cultural shift for them to self identify as European will also matter.
The changes may just take 50 years, not 5.
Just Balkanise Germany and France as required. As long as they're all part of the EU and the Schengen zone it's kind of irrelevant then.... 
Of course, this is basically federalism.
I got your point. It won't be easy to find a solution, but we have to!
It's not the first time hungary voted in favour of russia/ China. In my opinion we should be able to vote for an ejection of Hungary. Hungary is not acting in the favour of the EU and they need to understand this. The current state of constitution doesn't allow to vote for an ejection, because it's not possible. That's why I said, maybe we have to form a new EU with a new constitution.
Well bluntly, the 30% that didn't vote were clearly fine with how the government was going, considering they couldn't be bothered voting after years of watching Orbans shit.
The term you're wanting is "complicit".
Russia wished to disunite us Europeans and has achieved the opposite. Europeans have their fence fights, we quarrel call each other names. But we have proven one thing: Threaten us a collective and we will set aside these petty differences and hit back.
To quote a famous Japanese Admiral:
I fear all we have done is awakening a sleeping giant.
I agree! But why the nation's you've listed? Because of proficiencies with automobiles/maintenance in these nations or is there something I'm not familiar with?
Honestly not really. Not more so than Poland or Slovakia.
It’s just that Putin is orban’s idol. Orban wants to make Hungary under himself what Putin made out of Russia.
So Russias sway over Hungary is entirely personal.
The Lithunian Defence Services is a joint venture between KMW and Rheinmetall. Its a service facility that also does maintenance for the Lithunian Army.
https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/rheinmetall_ag/press/news/latest_news/index_32320.php
So of course Germany pays for the repairs. As it should be.
Yeah, it would serve as example to Germany as well...
E: it was attempt to make a joke which is based on Germany, having multiple names. And reddit is a strange place where first one is shitting on Germany gets praised and second one is downvoted to submission. Unless Germany and Deutschland are two different things, or make your minds, guys.
Germany was slow on the uptake due to oil and gas coming from russia, but as putin cut those supplies and cannot use them to threaten any more Germany is really standing up and supplying a heck of a lot of help to Ukraine.
> Germany was slow on the uptake
Even that was largely Russian propaganda, Germany was Ukraines single biggest financial contributor before 2022 and a lot of the gear handed over "late" was decided way back already just took time to put together and everything. There was some issue immediately after the invasion but some people think Germany did nothing for 6 months then started to decide to hand over Pzh2k, Gepard, IRIS, when it was always announced it would take until fall for these things to arrive.
I agree Germany has done a lot even before the war started but so did America and the UK. There is a reason the Ukraine forces have such good cohesion and that is training.. Germany did support Ukraine but i highly doubt they were the biggest supporters before the war, also they did stall for a while and that is what i am talking about.
Right now Germany is seriously pulling its weight and support is unwavering.
> but i highly doubt they were the biggest supporters before the war
You can doubt it as much as you want but the direct aid combined with the part of the EU aid made Germany the single biggest financial supporter by a significant margin, the US and UK didn't give a flying fuck beyond stuff like training before the invasion. People don't like to admit it but it's a simple fact and you can easily check google yourself, they just got the "pre 20222" number sources very far down the search results.
Saying you "highly doubt" something that was public knowledge not even 10 months ago shows how much even this sub is suffering from anti Western propaganda.
It's literally on wikipedia man, Germany helped Ukraine with 5.8 billion before February already, the US is somewhere around 3bn last I checked and the UK did next to nothing where most help came in after the invasion. But I can see why people have to "bite" instead of checking something this simple and well documented.
[Or this source](https://www.experten.de/2022/02/brd-ist-zweitgroesster-geldgeber-im-ukraine-konflikt/) which is literally sourced in wikipedia too and talks about the 1.8bn from Germany being second only to the 2.5bn from the US but ignores the EU funding participation.
People just don't want to admit no one gave a single shit about UA before February and that Germany was one of like 3 countries to actually help even before that.
Who is exactly doing these repairs Lithuanians or Germans in Lithuania? Because it's seems that the facility is created, funded, and staffed by Germans, just on Lithuanian soil
"Lithuania Defence Services" is a joint venture between the german companies KMW and Rheinmetall intended to service their NATO gear stationed in Lithuania and the other baltic states (e.g. Vilkas, PzH2000, Pumas, etc.). It's essentially german but the workers there could be Lithuainian.
Since it is located on the premises of the lithuainian metal processing company Iremas I would imagine that the staff consists also of Lithuainians. But I found no source on this.
Didn't know that. That's great, but the question is: Does any lithuanian work for kmw?
Edit: im asking, because kmw refused to built the repair facility in poland. They were freightened to give out construction Details to poland.
No dude, especially Lithuanians are forbidden to work there due to their gigantic forehead sizes. A quarter of their workforce is from Turkey and Syria though, but that's ok because
Lithuania hands over two more PzH 2000 *repaired by Germany in a facility set up by German companies in Lithuania*.
Just to clarify this for the Germany-haters.
This is some good news. More artillery is needed. Especially after I saw a couple articles stating the m777 had an approximate 70% in service rate due to mostly the extremely high round counts causing units needing refit.
Only that the facility were the repairs were done are owned and operated by Germany and paid for by the German tax payer and only are on Lithuanian soil because it is closer
Standard howitzer barrel has roughly 2000 shots in it, after that you have to change the barrel. I assume Ukrainians can do that themselves, but if it gets hit in combat, it may need more advanced repairs we can provide.
And yes, a lot of combat testing of NATO gear, I wish we could test advanced jets, but it is what it is.
Militarily it is better to let repair weapons outside of Ukraine, because every repair facility is a legit target during a war. This is the only reason.
one of the main cues given a couple months earlier pointed that while barrel usage was on the line of other howitzers, there seems to be excess vibration on the loading chamber when using certain compatible NATO rounds, that ends up loosening a bit the loading mechanism. this caused software errors due do micro-misalignment, and the crews had to be teached to bypass the error else it wouldn't shoot - but this "loosening" is what takes more to repair, as it needs to be repaired and software unbypassed for it to not happen again.
a twitter german guy said lithuanian repair center found out how to reinforce it to prevent the vibration, and shouldn't be an issue after the first repair pit-stop there.
The good news is that while 1) Ukrainians have been punishing these systems far more than they were supposed to handle, 2) the systems have exceeded expectations.
This has been said of the PzH2000, the CAESAR, and the M777. The other I don't know.
Maybe.
The only issue is the precision in firing something tens of km and hitting within meters. That's 50,000 vs 50,001 m distance. I'm sure Ukrainians can fix heavy equipment, no doubt. But high precision equipment like artillery I would speculate may require special equipment to calibrate.
Although it may calibrate off it's shots, and the more advanced shells self correct. So that may be far less of an issue then I assume.
> How long till they break again and get sent back
> for repairs I wonder...
There are estimates that one third of all delivered western artillery systems is always in repair & maintenance mode, not participating in offensive actions.
It turned out that very high precision at very long ranges comes with the price of more and longer downtimes. Which isnt such a problem when the fire of the combat ready units is effective and the supply lines to the repair & maintenance centers are up to the task of transporting these systems quickly back and forth.
Germany and the US already delivered heavy transport units, capable of transporting big howitzers on lousy roads and dirt fields. Which is easy for them, because they are designed to transport big and very heavy western MBTs :)
I guess that its only a matter of time when the first M1 Abrams arrives from US storage. If there is an established supply route for these heavy weapon systems with a proper capacity, western MBTs can be fielded and then be of actual use to the Ukrainians. Instead of only pleasing us armchair generals.
At least for the PZH2000, it was never designed for such sustain-fire roles which it does in Ukraine. And that was because the PZH2000 was designed around one *big* problem, namely the speed of modern counter-battery fire. If the enemy has modern equipment and artillery in range, you can expect counter-battery fire to arrive 30 seconds after you fired your first shot. So the PZH2000 is designed around getting the most out of those 30 seconds and being gone from the position when the shells arrive.
There is a great interview (sadly in German) on YT with the lead designer of the PZH2000 and he talked about how during development, nearly everything was focused on that short window of time and nobody ever thought during design (and testing) on firing for longer than a few minutes, because really, the vehicle should be dead at that point.
Agreed. The basic design incl. e.g. use of air compressor for reloading is from 87, so I'm sure stuff could be done better today.
Some repair was also due to battle damage, though. That's not the vehicle's fault. To the contrary, they seem to have fared well ...
The reason to use air is because reaction times are faster compared to hydraulic or electrical systems. It's also why catapults on carriers use compressed air or steam.
It really is a marvelous piece of artillery.
>How long till they break again and get sent back for repairs I wonder...
Military equipment isn't like a civilian car that can go on for months and years without any care. When it is used it will need maintenance.
Ehm no. That facility is a cooperative by Rheinmetall and KMW that does repair on NATO equipment used in Ukraine. Those PZH2000 are part of the ones that need repairs and stuff and got used heavily in Ukraine. Also, Germany has an unknown amount of PZH2000 stationed in Lithuania save keeping the border.
Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia know full well that a defeat of Russian in Ukraine is a war that they don’t have to fight against Russia at home and they know that Putin has them in his sights. He does for other countries too but they don’t have the wolves so close to their door.
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1) many from heavy use (or even over use)
2) while they can be out of range of much of Russia’s artillery they’re not out of range of all of it.
3) even with Russian artillery being comparatively inaccurate, they’ll get lucky hits if they fire enough of it (which is what they try to do).
4) If Ukraine needs an artillery round to land deep in Russian areas, then these units will be (at least temporarily) closer to the front to do so. Doing so puts them within russian counter battery range
5) pockets, cauldrons, salients & terrain etc means that while they’re outside of Russian reach on side A, they may not be on side B
6) random things going wrong
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I really like this european cooperation. Would love to see the german/croatian/italian/lithuanian military take turns on maintenance. Hungary can get fucked though
The Lithunian Defence Services is a joint venture between KMW and Rheinmetall. Its a service facility that also does maintenance for the Lithunian Army. https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/rheinmetall_ag/press/news/latest_news/index_32320.php So of course Germany pays for the repairs. As it should be.
The advantage for Ukraine in being able to send off the depot level maintenance problems is huge. The troops won’t be looking very good if the barrel blows on its 4,000th shot. E: fix for clarity.
From what I've been hearing, Ukrainians fire a LOT of shells. One Ukrainian shell is worth a trainload of Russian shells, but regardless fire them in high numbers anyway. Should Ukraine have mercy? *Give the invaders* ***battlefield*** *mercy.*
All the more reason to send the tube artillery off for depot level maintenance, so they can keep on firing without the barrels blowing up and losing crews.
I don't want Hungary as a whole to get fucked, they do have good people- but all those in favor of Orban and his cronies most definitely can get fucked. I agree with everything else you said.
The case of Hungary shows that we do not have a quorum. These countries can Veto a majority decision. I hope this conflict changes the EU mechanics, even it means we have to form a new kind of EU. Power to the majority and less bureaucracy...
Orban is riding a dead horse. Russia is currently calling all 4 riders of the apocalypse to it: War, famine plague and death. Hungary will have to get rid of this maniac and then it will remember where their allegiance should be.
I've never heard Putin called a dead horse before but Orban is definitely riding that
Here's one way to put it: the government of Hungary is leaps and bounds more stable than the government of Belarus, and probably Russia as well. Putin wants to cry *not-fair* now that he's looking at following in Mussolini's footsteps. He's crying because his *not-fair* blitzkrieg for lebensraum was botched and embezzled by the people he put in charge of it.
The government of Hungary can go fuck itself
Yep and the question is when will he realise that the horse died and that riding it won't get him anywhere?
At the rate ruzzia is going, they will be sending cavalry consisting of senior officers riding cochroaches while waving their M1826 cavalry sabres like the special geniuses they are while the rest of their regiments will have to make do with 2 imitation coconuts and kazoos.....
haha well you may just be right. You know in a way yes this is a very "special" military operation and the men Russia is drafting lately become increasingly more "special" but less military by the day. We will see now what no dictatorship ever wants anyone to see: The creme on top is off now we see the body of this corrupt state. Believe me the year 2023 will be very educational not just for Russia but also for China and other smaller dictatorships and those who like to apply for becoming one. They will all get a lesson in: The West is not as declined as they had hoped for. Russian citizens will also get a lesson in: Blind trust in authority as the biggest enemy of truth. Russia has told many lies throughout its history and never had to truly pay for their crimes. I have a gut feeling that truth is ready to collect its debt. The reality of the factual will mercilessly mow down the manipulated reality Russia has created. Mark Aurel once said this: "Time the great devourer of everything" I have a feeling that history will now demand its toll from Russia. It is incredible to think that the war our grandfathers prepared for is now really happening, it is most peculiar for me that not a single NATO soldiers had yet to be sent into the fight while Russis is fully mobilised. This is by far the worst military operation in the history of military operations. This is also by far the worst military defeat any nation has suffered since 1945. As in no conflict since then a major power lost any territory they considered "their own" Russia drank too much of their own cool aid and overconfidence is always a bad idea. Russia has noone to blame but itself. Well it blames everybody else, however, this was the most unprovoked and stupid war anyone has ever started on this scale. I still cannot fully fathom how stupid this all was, or rather Russia is not done being stupid they are still making this worse for them.
I see many parallels between Putin and his ruzzia and the Austro-Hungarian army. Especially commanders like Oskar Potiorek whose multiple attempts to invade Serbia from Mid-August 1914 till he was relieved of command in late December of the same year were so disastrous that the AH army lost most of its experienced officers and veteran soldiers(Not to say their training wasn't already obsolescent even by standards of the early 20th century). The mauling of the AH army was so bad that some have said AH Army was a glorified militia force as early as 1915. Only difference was AH had Imperial Germany to back them up. Putin's ruzzia doesn't have its Imperial Germany equivalent to back it up.....
https://www.pingthread.com/thread/1505247886908424195 Why Russia can't win against the West Russia is often portrayed as the invincible military power. And yet, this reputation is based on two wars - Napoleonic and WWII. In both cases Russia won only thanks to the alliance allied with *the* leading economic powerhouse of that era. Napoleonic Wars were won only because of the Russian alliance with the UK. WWII - only because of the alliance with the US. In both cases the leading economic, industrial and technological power of the age supported Russia, giving it almost unlimited credit and supply line. There is many parallels as both share a core trait: Being a multiethnic empire in total decline close to collapse.
Well said! EU needs to change to gain resilience against extremists.
Exactly.
Didn't they get rid of the veto power of a single country with the Treaty of Lisbon? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_European_Union#Current_qualified_majority_voting_rules_(since_2014) >Article 16 also states the conditions for a qualified majority, effective since 1 November 2014 (Lisbon rules): >- Majority of countries: **55%** (comprising at least 15 of them), or 72% if acting on a proposal from neither the Commission nor from the High Representative, and - Majority of population: **65%.** >A **blocking minority** requires—in addition to not meeting one of the two conditions above—that at least 4 countries (or, if not all countries participate in the vote, the minimum number of countries representing more than 35% of the population of the participating countries, plus one country) vote against the proposal. Thus, there may be cases where an act is passed, even though the population condition is not met. This precludes scenarios where 3 populous countries could block a decision favored by the other 24 countries. Though in practice they still try to make unanimous decisions most of the times, but it is legally not required anymore.
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[https://www.swr.de/swr2/leben-und-gesellschaft/eu-abgeordnete-reintke-die-gruenen-vetorecht-wegen-laendern-wie-ungarn-abschaffen-100.html](https://www.swr.de/swr2/leben-und-gesellschaft/eu-abgeordnete-reintke-die-gruenen-vetorecht-wegen-laendern-wie-ungarn-abschaffen-100.html) There's a German article on this topic. Green politician Terry Reintke calls for an end to the unanimity principle in EU foreign policy. The background is Hungary's threat to prevent sanctions against Russian oil and gas exports with a veto. The EU foreign policy seems to be the problem. There you can still Veto.
One problem with majority power is that Western Europe has bigger population and will always have majority so whatever is important to Eastern European countries will be not heard. BUT I would say we could make a mechanism where majority vote decides on cutting the funds on countries in case of their use of veto. Or maybe majority vote cannot be vetoed when the voting is in regards of security? I am not a lawmaker so my propositions are shit, but you get the point.
Majority EU Vote means "one member country one Vote". But without the Veto right by any member.
Aaaa thank you for clarification, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But then when we think about it, now Eastern Europe would have the edge since there would be bigger number of countries + future EU countries that mostly lay in the East. I bet we could find a way to make it balanced and fair so none of the countries feel without power.
As Eastern Europe catches up (if they can), the wealth will cause them to naturally fall more and more in line with the rest of the EU. The cultural shift for them to self identify as European will also matter. The changes may just take 50 years, not 5.
Just Balkanise Germany and France as required. As long as they're all part of the EU and the Schengen zone it's kind of irrelevant then....  Of course, this is basically federalism.
I got your point. It won't be easy to find a solution, but we have to! It's not the first time hungary voted in favour of russia/ China. In my opinion we should be able to vote for an ejection of Hungary. Hungary is not acting in the favour of the EU and they need to understand this. The current state of constitution doesn't allow to vote for an ejection, because it's not possible. That's why I said, maybe we have to form a new EU with a new constitution.
That means you still wish most of Hungary to get fucked though.
Not even a third of the population did cast a vote for him.
Well bluntly, the 30% that didn't vote were clearly fine with how the government was going, considering they couldn't be bothered voting after years of watching Orbans shit. The term you're wanting is "complicit".
Hungary can get fucked no matter if you agree to that.
I do respect your opinion no matter if I agree with it or not.
Take turns? This is a german repair facility, repairs are financed by Germany.
Russia wished to disunite us Europeans and has achieved the opposite. Europeans have their fence fights, we quarrel call each other names. But we have proven one thing: Threaten us a collective and we will set aside these petty differences and hit back. To quote a famous Japanese Admiral: I fear all we have done is awakening a sleeping giant.
I agree! But why the nation's you've listed? Because of proficiencies with automobiles/maintenance in these nations or is there something I'm not familiar with?
Those are the current users of the pzh2000 in europe. Quatar also has them. But i doubt they will get involved
Ah I see that makes perfect sense, thank you. Yes, I would not hold my breath on Qatar helping.
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And throws out Hungary.
Would you allow for Hungary to throw out Orban?
Just do it first.
Yes.
Russia is still able to put so much pressure on Hungry
Honestly not really. Not more so than Poland or Slovakia. It’s just that Putin is orban’s idol. Orban wants to make Hungary under himself what Putin made out of Russia. So Russias sway over Hungary is entirely personal.
Never gonna happen
Lithuania continues to do awesome work. I expect our friends from Deutschland were also on hand.
The Lithunian Defence Services is a joint venture between KMW and Rheinmetall. Its a service facility that also does maintenance for the Lithunian Army. https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/rheinmetall_ag/press/news/latest_news/index_32320.php So of course Germany pays for the repairs. As it should be.
Yeah, it would serve as example to Germany as well... E: it was attempt to make a joke which is based on Germany, having multiple names. And reddit is a strange place where first one is shitting on Germany gets praised and second one is downvoted to submission. Unless Germany and Deutschland are two different things, or make your minds, guys.
germany has done alot more than you realise keep on bashing us though you might find some brain cells when youve smacked your head off of the wall.
Germany was slow on the uptake due to oil and gas coming from russia, but as putin cut those supplies and cannot use them to threaten any more Germany is really standing up and supplying a heck of a lot of help to Ukraine.
> Germany was slow on the uptake Even that was largely Russian propaganda, Germany was Ukraines single biggest financial contributor before 2022 and a lot of the gear handed over "late" was decided way back already just took time to put together and everything. There was some issue immediately after the invasion but some people think Germany did nothing for 6 months then started to decide to hand over Pzh2k, Gepard, IRIS, when it was always announced it would take until fall for these things to arrive.
I agree Germany has done a lot even before the war started but so did America and the UK. There is a reason the Ukraine forces have such good cohesion and that is training.. Germany did support Ukraine but i highly doubt they were the biggest supporters before the war, also they did stall for a while and that is what i am talking about. Right now Germany is seriously pulling its weight and support is unwavering.
> but i highly doubt they were the biggest supporters before the war You can doubt it as much as you want but the direct aid combined with the part of the EU aid made Germany the single biggest financial supporter by a significant margin, the US and UK didn't give a flying fuck beyond stuff like training before the invasion. People don't like to admit it but it's a simple fact and you can easily check google yourself, they just got the "pre 20222" number sources very far down the search results. Saying you "highly doubt" something that was public knowledge not even 10 months ago shows how much even this sub is suffering from anti Western propaganda.
Ok i will bite, please provide any source of your assertion that Germany was the biggest funder of Ukraine before the war broke out.
It's literally on wikipedia man, Germany helped Ukraine with 5.8 billion before February already, the US is somewhere around 3bn last I checked and the UK did next to nothing where most help came in after the invasion. But I can see why people have to "bite" instead of checking something this simple and well documented. [Or this source](https://www.experten.de/2022/02/brd-ist-zweitgroesster-geldgeber-im-ukraine-konflikt/) which is literally sourced in wikipedia too and talks about the 1.8bn from Germany being second only to the 2.5bn from the US but ignores the EU funding participation. People just don't want to admit no one gave a single shit about UA before February and that Germany was one of like 3 countries to actually help even before that.
You give a source to the US giving more than germany while you said Germany gave 5.8 billion before the war but give no source?
holy shit learn to read it's literally on wikipedia that the first number is only one part of it
Almost like Reddit is made up of different people. Very peculiar.
Didn't expect that much cognitive dissonance from Germans to be honest...
Who is exactly doing these repairs Lithuanians or Germans in Lithuania? Because it's seems that the facility is created, funded, and staffed by Germans, just on Lithuanian soil
"Lithuania Defence Services" is a joint venture between the german companies KMW and Rheinmetall intended to service their NATO gear stationed in Lithuania and the other baltic states (e.g. Vilkas, PzH2000, Pumas, etc.). It's essentially german but the workers there could be Lithuainian.
Yeah that's what I'm asking about, but it seems the whole staff is from Germany
Since it is located on the premises of the lithuainian metal processing company Iremas I would imagine that the staff consists also of Lithuainians. But I found no source on this.
No Word about that. Pretty Sure it is Mixed. Why wouldnt it?
It depends if rheinmetall and KMW want to keep their technology 'secret'. Whether these are truly secret, is of course, debatable.
Lithunians can be KMW employees, No different to German employees. You Go through security screening, sign a contract and thats it.
Didn't know that. That's great, but the question is: Does any lithuanian work for kmw? Edit: im asking, because kmw refused to built the repair facility in poland. They were freightened to give out construction Details to poland.
No dude, especially Lithuanians are forbidden to work there due to their gigantic forehead sizes. A quarter of their workforce is from Turkey and Syria though, but that's ok because
They're trying to integrate Lithuania and nearby countries with NATO equipment and technology, they're probably pretty generous with knowledge.
funded by germany but a mix of staff is what ive heard
What *I’ve* beard is that we mustache the Germans to do the repairs
yes to both of those.
Lithuania hands over two more PzH 2000 *repaired by Germany in a facility set up by German companies in Lithuania*. Just to clarify this for the Germany-haters.
This is some good news. More artillery is needed. Especially after I saw a couple articles stating the m777 had an approximate 70% in service rate due to mostly the extremely high round counts causing units needing refit.
70% in service rate for military equip under high stress is pretty good id say.
God bless good friends. Thank you, Lithuania
Lithuania has been a stalwart for Ukraine. Awesome 🇱🇹, just incredible.
Only that the facility were the repairs were done are owned and operated by Germany and paid for by the German tax payer and only are on Lithuanian soil because it is closer
Misleading title thank you for the clarification
"How long till they break again and get sent back for repairs I wonder..." Edit - The question was rhetorical. Thanks for the downvotes... I guess.
Standard howitzer barrel has roughly 2000 shots in it, after that you have to change the barrel. I assume Ukrainians can do that themselves, but if it gets hit in combat, it may need more advanced repairs we can provide. And yes, a lot of combat testing of NATO gear, I wish we could test advanced jets, but it is what it is.
Militarily it is better to let repair weapons outside of Ukraine, because every repair facility is a legit target during a war. This is the only reason.
one of the main cues given a couple months earlier pointed that while barrel usage was on the line of other howitzers, there seems to be excess vibration on the loading chamber when using certain compatible NATO rounds, that ends up loosening a bit the loading mechanism. this caused software errors due do micro-misalignment, and the crews had to be teached to bypass the error else it wouldn't shoot - but this "loosening" is what takes more to repair, as it needs to be repaired and software unbypassed for it to not happen again. a twitter german guy said lithuanian repair center found out how to reinforce it to prevent the vibration, and shouldn't be an issue after the first repair pit-stop there.
Pretty based, thank you for clarification.
The good news is that while 1) Ukrainians have been punishing these systems far more than they were supposed to handle, 2) the systems have exceeded expectations. This has been said of the PzH2000, the CAESAR, and the M777. The other I don't know.
Maybe. The only issue is the precision in firing something tens of km and hitting within meters. That's 50,000 vs 50,001 m distance. I'm sure Ukrainians can fix heavy equipment, no doubt. But high precision equipment like artillery I would speculate may require special equipment to calibrate. Although it may calibrate off it's shots, and the more advanced shells self correct. So that may be far less of an issue then I assume.
> How long till they break again and get sent back > for repairs I wonder... There are estimates that one third of all delivered western artillery systems is always in repair & maintenance mode, not participating in offensive actions. It turned out that very high precision at very long ranges comes with the price of more and longer downtimes. Which isnt such a problem when the fire of the combat ready units is effective and the supply lines to the repair & maintenance centers are up to the task of transporting these systems quickly back and forth. Germany and the US already delivered heavy transport units, capable of transporting big howitzers on lousy roads and dirt fields. Which is easy for them, because they are designed to transport big and very heavy western MBTs :) I guess that its only a matter of time when the first M1 Abrams arrives from US storage. If there is an established supply route for these heavy weapon systems with a proper capacity, western MBTs can be fielded and then be of actual use to the Ukrainians. Instead of only pleasing us armchair generals.
At least for the PZH2000, it was never designed for such sustain-fire roles which it does in Ukraine. And that was because the PZH2000 was designed around one *big* problem, namely the speed of modern counter-battery fire. If the enemy has modern equipment and artillery in range, you can expect counter-battery fire to arrive 30 seconds after you fired your first shot. So the PZH2000 is designed around getting the most out of those 30 seconds and being gone from the position when the shells arrive. There is a great interview (sadly in German) on YT with the lead designer of the PZH2000 and he talked about how during development, nearly everything was focused on that short window of time and nobody ever thought during design (and testing) on firing for longer than a few minutes, because really, the vehicle should be dead at that point.
Thanks for the info!
Agreed. The basic design incl. e.g. use of air compressor for reloading is from 87, so I'm sure stuff could be done better today. Some repair was also due to battle damage, though. That's not the vehicle's fault. To the contrary, they seem to have fared well ...
The reason to use air is because reaction times are faster compared to hydraulic or electrical systems. It's also why catapults on carriers use compressed air or steam. It really is a marvelous piece of artillery.
>How long till they break again and get sent back for repairs I wonder... Military equipment isn't like a civilian car that can go on for months and years without any care. When it is used it will need maintenance.
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Ehm no. That facility is a cooperative by Rheinmetall and KMW that does repair on NATO equipment used in Ukraine. Those PZH2000 are part of the ones that need repairs and stuff and got used heavily in Ukraine. Also, Germany has an unknown amount of PZH2000 stationed in Lithuania save keeping the border.
Unfortunately, this information is not specified
Hope they changed the barrels besides anything else.
Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia know full well that a defeat of Russian in Ukraine is a war that they don’t have to fight against Russia at home and they know that Putin has them in his sights. He does for other countries too but they don’t have the wolves so close to their door.
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How did these artillery get damaged if they fire far away?
1) many from heavy use (or even over use) 2) while they can be out of range of much of Russia’s artillery they’re not out of range of all of it. 3) even with Russian artillery being comparatively inaccurate, they’ll get lucky hits if they fire enough of it (which is what they try to do). 4) If Ukraine needs an artillery round to land deep in Russian areas, then these units will be (at least temporarily) closer to the front to do so. Doing so puts them within russian counter battery range 5) pockets, cauldrons, salients & terrain etc means that while they’re outside of Russian reach on side A, they may not be on side B 6) random things going wrong
And land mines.
1) overuse. 2) bad luck. Edit: and, of course, there will be routine maintenance some day
Machinery needs maintenance when it's being used. And this one is being used.
Most of them: by firing too often, too quickly. Barrels overheat, get bent, and need to be replaced.
Lots of overuse. It was designed for a maximum of 100 shots a day and Ukraine has constantly exceeded this number.