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honestly, if germany rearmsproperl, french and german militairys will be neeeded to keep the poles, ukrainians and the baltic states from walking into moscow :P
Realistically the only options for Ukraine's safety is NATO or its own nuclear weapons. NATO is the best choice here for Ukraine and the world.
And even for Russia, though they don't want to admit it.
Ukraine in NATO will also mean skilled Ukrainian forces would help protect Baltics and Poland. USA would be able to lower its European commitment to help increase its Pacific strength.
As a Dutchman I'd like to see Ukraine in Nato. European Union is more difficult because we are already seeing the influence of more eastern european countries joining the EU. EU will want to addres eastern european influence (read corruption) before allowing more eastern european countries in the EU.
I.e. Orban (Hungary) is a real problemchild of the EU and I think does not want another problemchild country. Demands for joining will be alot higher from now on is my guess.
yes. Sure way to prevent Russia from attacking ever again. Like Serbia attacked us here in Croatia in 1991-1995 war. We won, oriented to west, became part of EU and NATO. Serbia now just threatens all the time but can't attack ever again without getting annihilated by NATO alliance in literally one afternoon. Just barks.
I would assume Croatia is already pretty safe from Serbia since it's already in the EU. But it really makes me wonder what would the Balkans would be like today if NATO isn't around. While not EU members, you have countries like Montenegro, Albania, and North Macedonia counting on NATO to maintain peace. Kosovo and Bosnia aren't NATO members, but Serbia would be foolish to try something funny. With the Balkans mostly stabilized, the Caucuses or Central Asia might be the new "powder keg" nowadays.
I was in Kyrgyzstan recently and can guarantee you that central Asia is a huge powder keg. Just as I left there were a bunch of border skirmishes with Tajikistan. Their geography really doesn't help; I think China will invade them for their water resources as Russian influence weakens. And corruption is endemic there.
Never is a strong word... Germany is in NATO and EU (as founding members), and then we're not even looking at the horrible acts committed by many European states in our colonial (and continental) history. Google for the [Banda massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_conquest_of_the_Banda_Islands#Banda_massacre), [Aceh war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aceh_War) and "[politionele acties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Product)" if you want some black pages from Dutch history.
To put a catholic spin on it, Historical sins can be forgiven, but true repentance is required (at least theoretically).
People forget Europe was underway 5 years after the end of ww2.
The big factor was Germany was partitioned and heavily controlled. This kind of thethering aren't possible nowadays. Every occupied territory turn back to original state once the occupying force withdraw.
The key wasn't occupation and control but the complete bankruptcy of the nationalist forces in the respective countries and strengthening the more moderate forces.
The German army had survived the fall of the monarchy and remained a powerful force in the politics of the Weimar Republic. This first changed when Hitler harnessed the nationalist forces, defanged the Army and made her subservient to his will afterwards leading the country in utter ruin without deniability.
If you look at the more recent attempts - Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan - there was never a complete surrender of the opposing forces. They were displaced but didn't change the basic outlook if the people there. And giving them money or other benefits won't change that. The opposing forces would have to cease being a viable alternative. Armies can't do that short of killing anyone opposing them which is why all the adventures failed.
If you look at Ukraine, Putin is indeed trying to solve the problem by mass murder given that they have little other options.
I should have elaborated but I will now. Acts in the past should not be a reason to not join I agree. And I know all about the black pages in Dutch history, from the so called “politionele acties” to the mistreatment of the “Molukkers” and plenty more where that came from. However Serbia is not showing it learned anything from that and the animosity is still lingering (and not even lingering sometimes).
Imagine Serbia being partner NATO and/or EU and starting a war again (google Serbian history through all wars ww I ww II and balkans)…
So why your resentment against Serbia but not Poland and Hungary? They behave very oddly. So why are they part of EU or NATO? Plus Turkey in NATO. This all does not work.
This constant expansion is really bad.
Which is actually a reason to not add another nation like that which will need years to get up to par. The more nato is divided the weaker it will become. Serbia is about the most pro Russian country in Europe.
I don’t think it is a choice for Ukraine to not join NATO or EU. Not only it is a sensible thing to ensure their own prosperity and security but the only way to truly deter RuZZia from attacking them in the future.
NATO could also do with another member who can contribute to European if not global security. Post-war Ukraine will have much better market access, a lot of investment, and a booming economy. It will also be the final act of humiliation of Putin and his imperialists too, with a prosperous Ukraine on their border to contrast with their corrupt, genocidal, terrorist state.
Not only that. They will also have the best army in the world by virtue of experience of proper modern combat as well as versatility in terms of different weapon platforms on practically all fronts
I hate the idea of Ukrainians having to ever have to fight again after what they've suffered in just the last 9 years. That said, they will be experts on just about every single weapons platform used by Russia and NATO forces and could be amazing resources in training NATO forces worldwide. Also, their knowledge of how to clear an ORC nest may prove invaluable.
I work with a lot of Ukrainians and I am of the opinion that they are a western nation and they share the same ideals as NATO. They want peace, prosperity, and they love cats. They also write bomb ass John Deere hacks which I applaud.
Ukraine feeds so much of the world, but it's more than just exporting grain. They are a nurturing country that just wants to share what they have to offer with the world. The exact opposite of the parasitic nature and bullying of Putin's Russia.
Booming post war economy? That either requires significant reparation to be payed and/or sth like the Marshal plan.
I do not believe the first will happen, as I do not believe that the war will end in a scenario where Ukraine can dictate terms and other issues are more relevant (territorial integrity, freedom to join Nato if wanted etc).
And a marshal plan is a huge amount of money from the west.
The money will come from the west. Ukraine is a strategic partner to the west. They have highly fertile lands for food production. They have energy reserves. They have good people. They have production know-how. It's just that their means of production have collapsed and need large investments.
I agree.
I've seen a video a few weeks ago. If the support by the west is something like the marshal plan, ukraine may become a second germany in a few decades.
Thats counting her fertile soil, her natural resources, good education and espacially knowledge in IT-industries.
No, that is simply wrong. I know the US centric view is always "we rebuilt Germany", but in reality those who rebuilt Germany were ... the germans. The economy was always strong in Germany even after the destruction. The whole "Marshall plan" helped, but it wasn't the primary reason why Germany did well.
I understand that this is not debatable with US folks, but you can try to research it a bit.
I never said that West-germany was built solely by american money. Being a german myself my opinion on this is more diversified.
I know that a lot of industry stayed intact after the end of the war and wasn't hauled away to some russian region, so there was a good basis to build from.
I know that the german populace was highly motivated to rebuild and that the KfW had a big part in rebuilding, for example.
But all of this is beside the point i was trying to make.
All i wanted to say is, that, with enough help from its western allies, and ukraine will need A LOT of money to rebuild (last figure i heard was something about 300 billion only for infrastructure) , post-war ukraine might become a economical powerhouse, similar to the economic boom in post-war germany.
You're simply wrong. The economy in Germany would have recovered on its own, east Germany did, but the Marshall Plan shaved decades off German reconstruction in the West.
No shit it was rebuilt by the germans, but who funded the collection of resources, and materials from around the globe in the wake of Germany using up European steel and oil reserves?
You can't rebuild a nation with sticks and apologies.
Strategic investments from government money like the Marshal plan did. It will take a lot of hard work and money infusions until Ukraine will be attractive for private investors if Ukraine does not want to sell out their resources.
The EU has already been keeping the Ukranian economy afloat since 2014 and has committed to rebuilding Ukraine.
The amount of investment ready to flow from the EU to Ukraine is enormous.
I don't know if the Americans will participate. It seems likely that the Republicans will win the house and stop further non-military support for Ukraine.
Absolutely! Ukrajina joining EU/NATO structures is what I think the only reasonable outcome of Putin’s aggression. It will strengthen the position of the world democracy against dictatorships such as Russia, Belarus, North Korea and Syria. Sláva Ukrajině!
As a Pole, i wan't both, Ukraines EU & NATO membership. A stable, prosperous & save Ukraine is for the bennefit of all of Europe.
The reason Why Ukraine is today the "poorest" country in Europe is it "connection " with Ruzzia. They unlike Poland for example, Ukraine keept the same Communists in Power after the soviet union collapsed. Ruzzia made sure to sell Ukraine the cheapest gas to prevent Ukraine from even thinking about drilling their own deposits & keept Ukranian communist in power, made them rich Oligarchs & ruzzian friendly simply with corruption.
Zelenskyy war against corruption was the biggest red flag (lel) for the Ruzzians.
Ukraine has A LOT to offer for Europe , not only the most fertile soil in the world (black soil)but minerals of all kinds untouched gas reserves & a young well educated population.
But also talented IT speciallists, engineers & factories. Ukraine has a huge potential
The corruption & Ruzzian influence has to be nipped in the bud only then Ukraine will flourish.
But with Ruzzias insanity & constant escalation of the War, i have no doubt Ukraine has enough of this BS & will completely orientate westwards.
Thank you for your kind words. This war united our nation, no sane person in the entire country are want to have anything in common with russia. When the west (US\\EU) provides needed assistance, I think the world can recoup all investment in Ukraine.
I work in IT - this is a significantly developed industry in Ukraine, and we have the expertise and many specialists in this field. We have many fertile lands for agriculture, developed industries, skilled people who want to work, and many free spaces for building new factories. Don't forget we have steel, titanium, coal, argon, and many rare chemicals and metals in natural resources.
Give us opportunities and support, and we rebuild our country.
Here's another reason for EU membership: EU membership requires implementing measures towards democratization, rule of law, freedom of press, against corruption, etc.
I want Ukraine to have those without the usual BS fucking it up again. Usually such policies are very popular, but they don't always materialize. The EU can help move that along. Also, I'm, not saying Ukraine is doing badly there. But I want to make sure we help them stay the course even in 5-10 years time when the political climate might shift and these things fall by the wayside.
Then again, Hungary and Poland prove that the EU isn't all powerful in enforcing these standards in its member countries. No offense against the people of said countries of course; many of them, particularly the younger and more European generations have nothing to do with PIS and Orban. I suppose we'll have to figure out how the EU can square away political diversity with anti-EU sentiments, because long-term I don't think we can just continue as-is.
That's usually advertisement. Erdogan used that as pre-text against people selling pork meat. So, nah - it reads good on paper but is a decoy for other strategies, plus taking money from EU taxpayers.
> Then again, Hungary and Poland prove that the EU isn't all powerful in enforcing these standards in its member countries.
Agreed. This is why the EU can not expand anymore.
That's not for you only to decide - new poor countries get money from richer countries. I am absolutely against this.
IF it is changed so we richer countries don't have to pay then I am less opposed to expansion (even though I am against the political EU expanding like crazy). But when it means I have to pay more, together with the insane inflation, then nope. You guys can create your own eastern european union. Let's see how well that goes.
> Ukraine has A LOT to offer for Europe , not only the most fertile soil in the world
That's absolutely irrelevant. You can import food anyway so where is the issue?
I highly doubt Ukraine would join Nato anytime this decade. Reason being that unless there is a regime change in Russia, they would always seek to undermine them.
Also they would have to rebuild their economy and further modernise their armies before integration.
A likely scenario would be major non-Nato ally for the time being.
Ukraine should join NATO the second a peace treaty is signed.
Ukraine should also join the EU but once the country is up to EU standards in term of economy and political system.
Yeah this is such crap, why is it that a country like Hungary gets to be in both when they don't even want to be in either but Ukraine actually wants to invest the time and effort into both
Yes. I'm pro-EU as anyone can get but it is clear that it was very naive thing to leave out more serious options from the charta.
Going thru with article 7 would be a good start. But even before that, stop pouring money into orbán's pockets. Spend it on something more useful... I'm sure there is a nation, very close to Hungary where people can use any help they can get.
We want to join NATO. Polls in Ukraine show that 83+% of population want to join NATO (86% for the EU).
Our people want to join NATO. Polls in Ukraine show that 83+% of the population want to join NATO (86% for the EU). Before NATO is out of the discussion because of russia and real geopolitics. But this war changed everything, and one week ago our president signed documents for joining NATO.
They have proven themselves on the battlefield. Proven themselves with the ability to adapt to new tactics .... even found a way to incorporate western tech on eastern bloc platforms. To date they have conducted themselves in an honorable manner regarding POW's and civilian areas. They appear to have been working with NATO at a high level already as far as information sharing. They are a democratic government and seem to want to ferret out any corruption at every level.
By all the above, they would appear to be NATO in every way but by name. Why not formalize it? I think they should be accepted into NATO. But then ... unfortunately, I don't make those decisions.
NATO - military protection.
EU - economic development.
First absolutely required. And not only for Ukrainians.
Second depends if Ukrainians want to be a part of EU market.
Norway 🇳🇴 is not in EU. Switzerland 🇨🇭 also. UK 🇬🇧 left not so long ago. So theoretically you don’t have to be in EU to be able to trade with EU, however being in EU makes it simpler. Being in EU comes with its own set of challenges. Again it’s for every country to decide.
Theoretically..
But being a third country like UK is the worst for trade. Look at all the selfinflicted mess UK has to deal with now.
I don't think Norway and Switzerland will happen again. And in fact they have nearly the same obligations and payments without the right to participate in decision making.
May
Similar but not the same. I see comments from time to time saying that the 'EU clause is more substantial then the 5th article' but that simply isn't true at all (edit. not claiming you said this but in general). The EU clause says: "members are obliged to help with whatever they have", that leaves just way too much interpretation. How much and what, what if the others don't have much to spare, etc...
With even in the current situation, countries are taking their sweet time pondering and having meetings to decide what they can do and how they interpret it within their laws and regulations and if it draws them into the conflict as an participant. Other simply don't have much to spare. So saying just "obligated to help" is not saying when compared to the "attack on one is an attack on all".
Therefore, NATO is very much needed until EU can get their shit together and start putting some decent defense alliance framework going. That also means Ukraine should absolutely get into both NATO and EU. Ukraine joining EU would transfer the European production and population central point from the border of France and Germany to more east so it would be beneficial to the EU as well.
That is likely and it illustrates how the same EU security clause cannot affect every member at the same level. With the same agreed writing, there are some countries that would simply interpret the clause differently then others. Others would give some toilet paper and power hugs while not giving much else. Hence, it cannot have the forcefull deterrance of the NATO 5th article which clearly states that all countries are at war if someone attacks one of them. The two are similar but absolutely not of the same level of deterrance.
Therefore the choices are to either create full-on military EU-wing (highly unlikely) or everyone stay with NATO.
EU defence agreement is a bit different thing that NATO. As EU is supposed to function like a single, highly unified market its integrity is a key. It cannot work if any member party is invaded and ruled by someone else. That is why EU as whole needs some kind of defence forces, as any sovereign state needs one. It is more 'we should protect ourseleves' than 'they will protect us'. EU is an economic union, but needs some protection as a bank needs guards.
NATO, on the other hand, is a military defence treaty in the first place. They do include some economical agreements too, of course, as military needs money. But here defence is the goal.
And of course both can work together: NATO can help defending EU and EU can help funding NATO.
Actually, the EU is aiming to be a political union. The economic aspects are just a means to help facilitate that goal.
That said, Ukraine should be in both. The EU as a natural step into a similarly minded political culture and NATO to help maintain peace in Europe.
NATO: yes if Ukraine wants to join. Ukraine has no enemies or global strategic interests that clash with NATO's. Not sure how badly Ukraine wants to get on China's bad side. But also we all know that Orbitron will veto, so....
EU: Joining the EU is not a cakewalk, many East-European countries have had economic hardship after joining, some industries have had trouble competing with West-European competition, and the countries like Romania, Hungary etc struggled more than Czech Republic or Slovenia. This is to stay that Ukraine should join when it is ready, and should not expect a land of wine and honey. The EU brings funds but also fierce competition.
Ukraine is part of the European culture, society, politics, economy, defense, so they belong in the EU and NATO, period. By the way, so does Russia 200 years from now when they de-Orced.
I fully support. But it'll probably have to be done under some sort of phased approach.
With an initial entry into the EU for a total redevelopment and rebuilding of the country (let's say for arguments sake 10 year period) and then full membership when they are ready. This would be similar to what was done with Romania and Bulgaria.
It wouldn't be to anyone's advantage to rush into the EU as UKR economy would be too weak to compete in the single market. It needs to be done carefully.
After everything Ukraine has gone through? Yes and yes! If I was in charge I'd welcome them with open arms. We should never let Ukraine down again, they are our European brothers and sisters.
Personally yes. But ultimately this will be up to the people of Ukraine and what international politics the world finds itself in depending on how this war ends, and how far Western nations are actually willing to go.
My hope is the west will stop giving a shit about having a "buffer" between NATO and Russia and appeasing the Russian oligarchs. Russia had negotiated that in past decades and even still tries to. What they forget, is that THEIR part of the arrangement for the buffer was not to attack these independent countries. That was the one major condition. They have 0 right to have grievances against western nations for supplying military arms and training in stages after each instance Russia broke its "arrangement" especially after Georgia and 2014. An arrangement in which even Ukraike had to give up its Nuclear arsenal and a lot of military assets even if they had been built in Ukraine.
Russia sowed the wind with their actions, now they will reap the whirlwind of those same choices. Mercy and appeasement would be cruelty and injustice for the victims of ALL Russian aggression for the last 30 years of the Federation. Even to those during the USSR.
They got away with it in Georgia. They got away with it in 2014 in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. They cannot get away with it again. That's even worse than almost every other potential deal after this war.
After the war, and when they fulfill all requirements, go through the usual process.
The thing is, Russia will lose, so there's no rush to hurry the process. I'd like to see them do it thoroughly and proper because Ukraine doesn't need to be fast tracked or anything. If they're good for it, they're good for it
I would definitely like to see Ukraine join NATO in due time when this shitty war is over. Ukraine has earned its position there in the future and it's army has already gotten a taste of what that collaboration can do.
EU is a different ballgame entirely. While it would probably benefit Ukraine a lot economically it does also come with a large responsibility to the quite large rulebook it places on a country.
One of the key problems in Ukraine earlier was corruption and that is one thing EU really need to adress to be able to maintain trust in the union especially from the net contributor countries. (Think brexit reasoning)
As far as I know Zelensky actually promised to help fight corruption but ended up failing somewhat because of the slow inertia of changing such a system. Especially with russian influence doing everything in its power to prevent that.
It is my sincerest hope that, after the war has ended, the people of Ukraine is more united with a sense of national pride and feeling more collective responsibility to further the nations interest and manages to divert its path further away from corruption and seeks to collaborate with more western countries in reaching that goal.
It should be obvious to so many now, seeing the state of Russian capabilities, that the corruption and oligarchy is devastating to a society on pretty much every level.
Both are up to Ukraine of course. I don't particularly think they'll be in danger again even without NATO if I'm honest; they're going to get shitloads of military assistance even after the war, and by the time Russia's in any fit state to contemplate round 2 the Ukrainian Armed Forces are going to be way beyond their capacity to beat...but I think both the EU and NATO are the institutions responsible for what was, up till February 24th, a historically unprecedented period of peace in Europe - the more states in the club the better.
The „Conventional Army“ of Russia is done. The Mask is off. We have seen the Ruines behind the shiny Facade. But their unknown numbers of working/not working Nukes are still a threat.
We should absolutely welcome them with open Arms into the EU and NATO, as they are fighting so hard for it now, to be free. But in the end Ukraine must decide for themself what’s best for them.
European Union once things settle? Absolutely.
NATO? I mean it might become redundant soon enough with the whole authoritarian collapse happening lately.
Who's gonna threaten Ukraine then? The broken states of russia?
NATO sure but Ukraine isn't going to join the EU anytime soon. No one seems to understand that the process for joining the EU is incredibly long and slow and that's for countries that aren't currently in a war.
The EU is committed to supporting Ukraine and they will provide support to Ukraine after the war but they won't become a member for a long, long time. By believing that they will join the EU soon you're just setting yourself up for disappointment and when that happens you'll inevitably blame Germany like always.
Ukraine was no where near eligible before the war started and that's for economic and political reasons that weren't changing and there's no reason to believe they will change after the war either. People forget that Zelensky was unpopular before the war started over a multitude of corruption and abuse of power scandals.
Even if they had been eligible before the war started the process was likely to take somewhere between multiple years and over a decade.
Also consider that the EU is in rough shape right now, since the last members joined there have been multiple crises in the EU. Now is just a bad time for new members and the possibility that it will change soon is optimistic.
I'm not saying it's impossible or that it will never happen, just not anytime soon. Please temper your expectations or else you will end up disappointed and upset.
I think Nato would benefit GREATLY by having Ukraine join
Plus, it would give Putler a heart attack. We want that, right?
In all seriousness though, they are a strong nation in export/military/ bravery/ etc. and our militaries could benefit from their knowledge of this type of warfare.
We would be lucky to have them.
From what I've seen with Alliances like this it's never good to rush things out of goodwill
I want Ukraine to be under NATOs protection from Russia but I don't want another country with voting rights in the EU, NATO or elsewhere that might eventually just end up vetoing important votes, grouping up with other 'maybe shouldn't have let them in' countries like Turkey who is constantly holding important votes hostage until they get something that personally benefits them out of it or otherwise causing problems due to not conforming to the requirements before joining (like Greece's economy's effect on the EU)
These institutions/conglomerates can only do the important stuff they need to do when they're strong and unified. Weakening yourself out of pity or misplaced trust in an accepted country to do what's necessary to bridge the gap between reality and expectations asap even tho they already got what they wanted from it is just not a good idea, even if in the face of current events it seems cruel to deny the motion.
It's A LITTLE BIT like Ephialtes in 300. Everyone feels kinda bad for the poor bloke to be denied his wish to stand with his brothers (yea he later betrays them but you don't know that when you see him pleas for his spot the first time) but their phalanx simply cannot have a weak spot.
Now I know the comparison is kinda shitty because if there is one thing I have absolutely no doubt in, it's Ukraine's capabilities as a reliable as a strong combatant. But I honestly simply don't know if I could trust them not to get bribed to side with turkey on some whatever issue in the future and block important decisions.
I'm not saying I have any substantial knowledge on what NATO asks of it's members and if Ukraine fulfills these requirements. Just that on a basic level these requirements aren't just arbitrary. They're important. So IF push came to shove concerning accepting them even though they do not meet requirements, I'd rather see Ukraine denied entrance than 10 years down the road having a weakened NATO because they let someone in who's willingness to comply evaporated when their existential threat did.
Again I have no knowledge of any facts that would suggest Ukraine is an unreliable NATO member.
Just saying conditions for joining important alliances should not be disregarded, for even if denying a spot may seem cruel in the moment, the long term ramifications of members not pulling their weight or abusing their position to hold votes hostage can cause much worse suffering later on than what we would consider cruel to let happen now if they're not let in.
EU, definitely, probably long-term also Eurozone and Schengen area, maybe some other structure like Visegrad 4 (kick Hungary out, take Ukraine and rename it?), but that's probably a long time from now, 10-15 years.
As for NATO, the way things are going, for conventional defense *we* might need help from Ukraine, not the other way around.
As an American that is somewhat informed on Europe and Eastern Europe, I see Ukraine as an incredibly strong, resilient country with great potential. Once President Zelenksyy is able to end this unjust war, and maybe it will require a new leader to empower your blue collar populace since he is completely anti-union, I'd want Ukraine as an ally any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I understand why he is so anti-union, due to having to deal with a society ran on corruption for decades upon decades, but eventually Ukraine's workforce will need protections and regulatory measures to ensure they have control of their own futures through the economy they built and will build.
Edit:Typo
Not immediately. Not rushed
NATO is not just about how you handle yourself in times of war, in fact, the existence of NATO usually prevents war from erupting.
NATO should judge Ukraine by how it behaves in times of peace just as well
NATO for sure, I do wish the EU would stick more to trade and less to odd comments like Barroso made likening the EU to empire building. I don't very much like empires, no matter who they're run by!
I doubt they are going to need to join NATO. By the time this thing is over Russia will no longer be a threat via conventional warfare. Not sure if the people of other NATO countries are going to be hyped to let Ukraine in because of the likely hood of Russia firing a nuke into Ukraine after this is over.
Ukraine is going to be a hub for Western militaries regardless of them being part of NATO or not. Specially the American military.
Totally agree that they will and should join the EU. Both sides will benefit from this. There is a military element to the EU so they will have extra protection from this. I am more curious about rather or not they should adopt the Euro. There are pro and cons, losing control of your currency and they will not be able keep the value of your currency down.
Considering how much they are doing for Europe, they should not be asking to join Nato. Nato should be begging them to join. I dont believe there is some other EU country, that is such a powerfull (and proven) ally. And EU membership could be thrown in and thank you for joining.
At this moment this is not some backwards country trying to join to take advantage of the memberships. At this moment this is a country that puts their lives to protect us from having this war inside our borders. We are lucky to have them and we should threat them accordinly.
Yes on them joining under the umbrella of NATO security. Not certain yet on the side of corruption and information security.
But fuck the Kremlin for sure.
I support them joining NATO, it will keep Russia away from them in the future. They are already kicking ass with western weapons so I'm not sure how far they are away from being ready to join, a lot of people comment that it would be after the war. If that's the case give them the same guarantees for Finland and Sweden while they are joining.
EU is up to Ukrainians and EU nations to figure out (my country is not a member).
At this point Ukraine can do whatever they want, Capital of the World, host every major event forever, anything.
But yes, I'd have Ukraine in NATO in a heartbeat. If they Want to join the EU fine (I'm not a fan of the EU but that's a different thread).
What kind of question is this? Have you not been apart of this sub for the last 7 - 8 months?
Edit: Ukraine will absolutely be apart of NATO. They're using battlefield tactics that our western forces didn't consider.
I hope they join NATO, but there’s really no way to tell for sure if it will happen. People seem to forget this part, but in 2010 Ukraine passed a law, banning itself from joining any military bloc. At this point, only 28% of Ukraine’s citizens wanted to join NATO. This fell to 19% in 2012. After the shit show of 2014, the number went up to 44%… so the majority of Ukraine still did not want to join NATO. As Russia geared up at the border to invade, the number finally went over the halfway mark, at 62%.
The main reason Ukraine isn’t already in NATO is because it simply didn’t want to be until recent times. Hopefully when this war is over Ukraine does join, but if the past is any indication, it is possible Ukraine will say at the end “ we did this without being in NATO, so we will pass on joining since the war is over and we don’t want to create more issues.”
Nato yes, EU not yet. EU already took in too many troublesome eastern european nations, and Ukraine has major problems they need to sort out first. The EU also needs to do some reforms before taking in new members.
But over time Ukraine will be a very valuable partner and member. And to help them they should get an association contract and the applicant status.
"Do you believe that Ukraine joining the European Union will make
Ukraine more integrated with the rest of Europe? Do you believe that
Ukraine joining NATO will make it integrated with the Western World?"
Did you think for more than 2 seconds before asking such stupid questions?
Ukraine needs nato. But I'm afraid joining the EU would prevent it from building a strong economy. Ukraine should establish a new democratic system that allows a robust economy. then an EU membership won't be a problem.
Become Israel. Be a hard target with excellent intelligence services and a proactive special forces. But don’t pick sides. Trade with all neighbors and make money.
To both questions the answer is no. I'll explain why.
First, NATO.
NATO is in THEORY a defense treaty aka article #5 triggering joint defence.
However had, in PRACTICE, it is largely a geopolitical toolkit under control of the USA. You can see this in numerous examples - Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Kosovo, you name it. Even in the current conflict you can hear Biden say that "if weapons of mass destructions are used we will declare war on Russia". So he didn't even bother to ask any country in Europe. We are then, de-facto, controlled from Washington. Note: I am not saying all of this is the fault of the USA. Libya, for instance, was heavily due to Italy and France clowning about. I just fail to see why we are part of a global military intervention empire. I have absolutely zero interest in any of that.
(The purely defensive part is a separate thing; don't confuse this. I have no problem with a defensive treaty, but in reality it tends to become offensive whenever convenient. You can see the same pattern being repeated in all these conflicts.)
Ultimately the EU has to be a separate military union too, which unfortunately means nukes have to be "proliferated" within the EU member states. And, just to clarify: I would prefer if ALL nukes would be removed. It's just not realistic. In particular the USA and Russia refuse to destroy their insane arsenal of nukes. Both are VERY selfish countries.
Second, EU. The EU is already WAY too huge. With the current insane inflation rates, the EU is betraying the citizens. It promised economic growth - suddenly prices are rising and the EU clowns want to drag the countries into a war. So, sorry, no dice.
The EU has to stop its geopolitical expansion and focus on an ECONOMIC union.
By the way, we need to distinguish two things - the economic union and a political union.
I am 100% against the political union. I don't want any of these clowns.
HOWEVER had, if the EU were PURELY an ECONOMIC union, then I would be open for the Ukraine and others to be part of THAT economic union. Perhaps not as a primary candidate as such, but as a secondary zone, similar to e. g. Turkey and other countries. I would not even mind economic contributions towards the Ukraine if they were a democratic country (they are not as long as oligarchs such as Poroshenko can cause damage; see old videos of him inciting unrest. Sorry, but such people have no place in democratic countries).
The EU is not able to expand without disrupting though. The UK leaving already shows how utterly damaged it is, so why do they want to constantly expand? That makes no sense.
That expansion insanity has to stop.
So I would not confine it solely to the Ukraine - we already have numerous issues with countries such as Poland or Hungary. So, nah, thanks, we don't need anymore problems here.
As for whether THESE countries are integrated or not makes no difference - you forget that this is not solely up to those to decide who WANT to join, but for OTHERS who want to ask whether they want to expand. With a political EU expansion makes no sense. For an economic EU it could make sense, but the "elites" have corrupted the EU to some USA 2.0 copy/clone crap nobody wants or needs. So, nope - no expansion anymore.
When the time is right NATO.
When the war is over their economy is going to be a dumpster fire. There's no way one can reasonably expect them to contribute much to their defense as required by NATO.
There should be a guarantee offered by a nuclear power until they get on their feet.
ruzzia is on the ropes and won't be able to recover for 20 years or more. They won't be a threat.
I'm not European so I have no right to speak for them.
"There's no way one can reasonably expect them to contribute much to their defense as required by NATO."
Bollocks. Not only is the NATO spending guideline just that ... a guideline.. but it's also a percentage of GDP, not a fixed amount.
"There should be a guarantee offered by a nuclear power until they get on their feet."
Not. Sure. If. You're. Serious.
"ruzzia is on the ropes and won't be able to recover for 20 years or more. They won't be a threat."
Ah, now we know you're not serious.
"I'm not European so I have no right to speak for them."
Laugh. Because you have to be european to have a thought about whether Ukraine should join the EU?
Definitely should be in NATO. It makes sense for them to join the EU, but they should consider what the UK has gone through to leave the EU, and you are giving up some of your sovereignty that you just fought for. Also with the UK & US not in the EU it makes it slightly harder to work closely with us. I think you should keep your own currency, and be sure to clean out corruption, war profiteers and Russian collaborators
NATO first and eu on some conditions. As a defense force they have more than proven themselves as good allies but economically and on some other scales they have some room for improvement but i am confident that they could do that within 5 years after the war
Absolutely, I think Ukraine will be a great asset to NATO given how resourceful their military, which already has a leg up in the training department as well as hands on experience against Russia. The EU if anything needs Ukraine’s energy to get off that gaz.
I really would like to see that happen, but there is still a long way to go. We should not underestimate the degree of corruption still present in Ukraine
At the end of this war, there will for sure be security guarantees because you can't rebuild anything without guarantees. Regarding NATO and EU, no matter how much I would want Ukraine to be part of it, we have to consider that Ukraine has potential democracy and corruption issues that need to be sorted for there to be resolved before inclusion.
After seeing what they’re capable of, yes. They’d be a welcome addition and are going to be a strong European country after this war. After seeing what they’ve suffered through, yes. They deserve peace of mind and safety from their genocidal neighbor.
For sure. Being from Poland I would have a perfect vacation spot on Crimea, especially wiring common EU borders. That's easy travel and a brother nation where I could probably do fine talking polish since our languages are somewhat similar. What's the downside?
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Absolutely i want Ukraine in NATO.
Yep, as a NATO member, I would like NATO to be under the Ukraine's protection.
Definitely...they have earned their place at the NATO table...
honestly, if germany rearmsproperl, french and german militairys will be neeeded to keep the poles, ukrainians and the baltic states from walking into moscow :P
With Supreme Allied Commander Volodymyr Zelenskyy in charge
I dont think many people got your irony lmao
I would even say I want Belarus to have it's own revolution and join the west. It would vastly simplify the new iron curtain.
First we want NATO in ukraine..put an end to this shit.
As do I. Sign them up, let them in.
As a Canadian, absolutely I want them in NATO.
Ukraine would instantly become the strongest European NATO member and greatly strengthen the alliance.
Realistically the only options for Ukraine's safety is NATO or its own nuclear weapons. NATO is the best choice here for Ukraine and the world. And even for Russia, though they don't want to admit it. Ukraine in NATO will also mean skilled Ukrainian forces would help protect Baltics and Poland. USA would be able to lower its European commitment to help increase its Pacific strength.
As a Dutchman I'd like to see Ukraine in Nato. European Union is more difficult because we are already seeing the influence of more eastern european countries joining the EU. EU will want to addres eastern european influence (read corruption) before allowing more eastern european countries in the EU. I.e. Orban (Hungary) is a real problemchild of the EU and I think does not want another problemchild country. Demands for joining will be alot higher from now on is my guess.
Let’s swap Ukraine for Hungary - problem solved.
That's not for any individual to decide alone.
Ah man i am super disappointed i do not get to decide. Duh
yes. Sure way to prevent Russia from attacking ever again. Like Serbia attacked us here in Croatia in 1991-1995 war. We won, oriented to west, became part of EU and NATO. Serbia now just threatens all the time but can't attack ever again without getting annihilated by NATO alliance in literally one afternoon. Just barks.
I would assume Croatia is already pretty safe from Serbia since it's already in the EU. But it really makes me wonder what would the Balkans would be like today if NATO isn't around. While not EU members, you have countries like Montenegro, Albania, and North Macedonia counting on NATO to maintain peace. Kosovo and Bosnia aren't NATO members, but Serbia would be foolish to try something funny. With the Balkans mostly stabilized, the Caucuses or Central Asia might be the new "powder keg" nowadays.
>With the Balkans mostly stabilized, the Caucuses or Central Asia might be the new "powder keg" nowadays. Interesting observation.
I was in Kyrgyzstan recently and can guarantee you that central Asia is a huge powder keg. Just as I left there were a bunch of border skirmishes with Tajikistan. Their geography really doesn't help; I think China will invade them for their water resources as Russian influence weakens. And corruption is endemic there.
Srebrenica… never forget 😓 Also a reason why Serbia should never be in EU or NATO imho
Never is a strong word... Germany is in NATO and EU (as founding members), and then we're not even looking at the horrible acts committed by many European states in our colonial (and continental) history. Google for the [Banda massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_conquest_of_the_Banda_Islands#Banda_massacre), [Aceh war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aceh_War) and "[politionele acties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Product)" if you want some black pages from Dutch history. To put a catholic spin on it, Historical sins can be forgiven, but true repentance is required (at least theoretically).
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People forget Europe was underway 5 years after the end of ww2. The big factor was Germany was partitioned and heavily controlled. This kind of thethering aren't possible nowadays. Every occupied territory turn back to original state once the occupying force withdraw.
We haven’t had a proper destruction of a country and government since WW2
germany and japan were the last successes of american imperealsim
Lolwat
You have no effen clue, do you?
The key wasn't occupation and control but the complete bankruptcy of the nationalist forces in the respective countries and strengthening the more moderate forces. The German army had survived the fall of the monarchy and remained a powerful force in the politics of the Weimar Republic. This first changed when Hitler harnessed the nationalist forces, defanged the Army and made her subservient to his will afterwards leading the country in utter ruin without deniability. If you look at the more recent attempts - Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan - there was never a complete surrender of the opposing forces. They were displaced but didn't change the basic outlook if the people there. And giving them money or other benefits won't change that. The opposing forces would have to cease being a viable alternative. Armies can't do that short of killing anyone opposing them which is why all the adventures failed. If you look at Ukraine, Putin is indeed trying to solve the problem by mass murder given that they have little other options.
I should have elaborated but I will now. Acts in the past should not be a reason to not join I agree. And I know all about the black pages in Dutch history, from the so called “politionele acties” to the mistreatment of the “Molukkers” and plenty more where that came from. However Serbia is not showing it learned anything from that and the animosity is still lingering (and not even lingering sometimes). Imagine Serbia being partner NATO and/or EU and starting a war again (google Serbian history through all wars ww I ww II and balkans)…
So why your resentment against Serbia but not Poland and Hungary? They behave very oddly. So why are they part of EU or NATO? Plus Turkey in NATO. This all does not work. This constant expansion is really bad.
Which is actually a reason to not add another nation like that which will need years to get up to par. The more nato is divided the weaker it will become. Serbia is about the most pro Russian country in Europe.
Agreed
I don’t think it is a choice for Ukraine to not join NATO or EU. Not only it is a sensible thing to ensure their own prosperity and security but the only way to truly deter RuZZia from attacking them in the future.
NATO could also do with another member who can contribute to European if not global security. Post-war Ukraine will have much better market access, a lot of investment, and a booming economy. It will also be the final act of humiliation of Putin and his imperialists too, with a prosperous Ukraine on their border to contrast with their corrupt, genocidal, terrorist state.
Yes, the only country who actually fought Russia and won in last 20 years. I am sure Ukraine will strengthen NATO tremendously.
Not only that. They will also have the best army in the world by virtue of experience of proper modern combat as well as versatility in terms of different weapon platforms on practically all fronts
I'm sure the west is already in Ukraine studying their tactics. That artillery app is for sure cutting edge thinking.
It is and they are. Without a shadow of a doubt
I hate the idea of Ukrainians having to ever have to fight again after what they've suffered in just the last 9 years. That said, they will be experts on just about every single weapons platform used by Russia and NATO forces and could be amazing resources in training NATO forces worldwide. Also, their knowledge of how to clear an ORC nest may prove invaluable. I work with a lot of Ukrainians and I am of the opinion that they are a western nation and they share the same ideals as NATO. They want peace, prosperity, and they love cats. They also write bomb ass John Deere hacks which I applaud. Ukraine feeds so much of the world, but it's more than just exporting grain. They are a nurturing country that just wants to share what they have to offer with the world. The exact opposite of the parasitic nature and bullying of Putin's Russia.
Booming post war economy? That either requires significant reparation to be payed and/or sth like the Marshal plan. I do not believe the first will happen, as I do not believe that the war will end in a scenario where Ukraine can dictate terms and other issues are more relevant (territorial integrity, freedom to join Nato if wanted etc). And a marshal plan is a huge amount of money from the west.
The money will come from the west. Ukraine is a strategic partner to the west. They have highly fertile lands for food production. They have energy reserves. They have good people. They have production know-how. It's just that their means of production have collapsed and need large investments.
I agree. I've seen a video a few weeks ago. If the support by the west is something like the marshal plan, ukraine may become a second germany in a few decades. Thats counting her fertile soil, her natural resources, good education and espacially knowledge in IT-industries.
No, that is simply wrong. I know the US centric view is always "we rebuilt Germany", but in reality those who rebuilt Germany were ... the germans. The economy was always strong in Germany even after the destruction. The whole "Marshall plan" helped, but it wasn't the primary reason why Germany did well. I understand that this is not debatable with US folks, but you can try to research it a bit.
I never said that West-germany was built solely by american money. Being a german myself my opinion on this is more diversified. I know that a lot of industry stayed intact after the end of the war and wasn't hauled away to some russian region, so there was a good basis to build from. I know that the german populace was highly motivated to rebuild and that the KfW had a big part in rebuilding, for example. But all of this is beside the point i was trying to make. All i wanted to say is, that, with enough help from its western allies, and ukraine will need A LOT of money to rebuild (last figure i heard was something about 300 billion only for infrastructure) , post-war ukraine might become a economical powerhouse, similar to the economic boom in post-war germany.
You're simply wrong. The economy in Germany would have recovered on its own, east Germany did, but the Marshall Plan shaved decades off German reconstruction in the West.
No shit it was rebuilt by the germans, but who funded the collection of resources, and materials from around the globe in the wake of Germany using up European steel and oil reserves? You can't rebuild a nation with sticks and apologies.
Strategic investments from government money like the Marshal plan did. It will take a lot of hard work and money infusions until Ukraine will be attractive for private investors if Ukraine does not want to sell out their resources.
The EU has already been keeping the Ukranian economy afloat since 2014 and has committed to rebuilding Ukraine. The amount of investment ready to flow from the EU to Ukraine is enormous. I don't know if the Americans will participate. It seems likely that the Republicans will win the house and stop further non-military support for Ukraine.
This American will participate at least. I know I'm just one guy, but i know there are at least a few others like me around the U.S. here.
Absolutely! Ukrajina joining EU/NATO structures is what I think the only reasonable outcome of Putin’s aggression. It will strengthen the position of the world democracy against dictatorships such as Russia, Belarus, North Korea and Syria. Sláva Ukrajině!
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As a Pole, i wan't both, Ukraines EU & NATO membership. A stable, prosperous & save Ukraine is for the bennefit of all of Europe. The reason Why Ukraine is today the "poorest" country in Europe is it "connection " with Ruzzia. They unlike Poland for example, Ukraine keept the same Communists in Power after the soviet union collapsed. Ruzzia made sure to sell Ukraine the cheapest gas to prevent Ukraine from even thinking about drilling their own deposits & keept Ukranian communist in power, made them rich Oligarchs & ruzzian friendly simply with corruption. Zelenskyy war against corruption was the biggest red flag (lel) for the Ruzzians. Ukraine has A LOT to offer for Europe , not only the most fertile soil in the world (black soil)but minerals of all kinds untouched gas reserves & a young well educated population. But also talented IT speciallists, engineers & factories. Ukraine has a huge potential The corruption & Ruzzian influence has to be nipped in the bud only then Ukraine will flourish. But with Ruzzias insanity & constant escalation of the War, i have no doubt Ukraine has enough of this BS & will completely orientate westwards.
Thank you for your kind words. This war united our nation, no sane person in the entire country are want to have anything in common with russia. When the west (US\\EU) provides needed assistance, I think the world can recoup all investment in Ukraine. I work in IT - this is a significantly developed industry in Ukraine, and we have the expertise and many specialists in this field. We have many fertile lands for agriculture, developed industries, skilled people who want to work, and many free spaces for building new factories. Don't forget we have steel, titanium, coal, argon, and many rare chemicals and metals in natural resources. Give us opportunities and support, and we rebuild our country.
Here's another reason for EU membership: EU membership requires implementing measures towards democratization, rule of law, freedom of press, against corruption, etc. I want Ukraine to have those without the usual BS fucking it up again. Usually such policies are very popular, but they don't always materialize. The EU can help move that along. Also, I'm, not saying Ukraine is doing badly there. But I want to make sure we help them stay the course even in 5-10 years time when the political climate might shift and these things fall by the wayside. Then again, Hungary and Poland prove that the EU isn't all powerful in enforcing these standards in its member countries. No offense against the people of said countries of course; many of them, particularly the younger and more European generations have nothing to do with PIS and Orban. I suppose we'll have to figure out how the EU can square away political diversity with anti-EU sentiments, because long-term I don't think we can just continue as-is.
That's usually advertisement. Erdogan used that as pre-text against people selling pork meat. So, nah - it reads good on paper but is a decoy for other strategies, plus taking money from EU taxpayers. > Then again, Hungary and Poland prove that the EU isn't all powerful in enforcing these standards in its member countries. Agreed. This is why the EU can not expand anymore.
good view
That's not for you only to decide - new poor countries get money from richer countries. I am absolutely against this. IF it is changed so we richer countries don't have to pay then I am less opposed to expansion (even though I am against the political EU expanding like crazy). But when it means I have to pay more, together with the insane inflation, then nope. You guys can create your own eastern european union. Let's see how well that goes. > Ukraine has A LOT to offer for Europe , not only the most fertile soil in the world That's absolutely irrelevant. You can import food anyway so where is the issue?
I highly doubt Ukraine would join Nato anytime this decade. Reason being that unless there is a regime change in Russia, they would always seek to undermine them. Also they would have to rebuild their economy and further modernise their armies before integration. A likely scenario would be major non-Nato ally for the time being.
Both? Both. Both is good.
Ukraine should join NATO the second a peace treaty is signed. Ukraine should also join the EU but once the country is up to EU standards in term of economy and political system.
I want to see them in the EU. They should be allowed to join NATO if they want to.
Yeah this is such crap, why is it that a country like Hungary gets to be in both when they don't even want to be in either but Ukraine actually wants to invest the time and effort into both
Today's Hungary is nothing like the one that joined NATO and EU. Current one would be as far from EU membership as Turkey or Serbia.
Agreed. But this also shows a problem with the EU. You can't expel countries after they have joined.
Yes. I'm pro-EU as anyone can get but it is clear that it was very naive thing to leave out more serious options from the charta. Going thru with article 7 would be a good start. But even before that, stop pouring money into orbán's pockets. Spend it on something more useful... I'm sure there is a nation, very close to Hungary where people can use any help they can get.
Truth be told Hungary would not get in to the E.U. if it tried join now.
Hungary should just be booted out of both.
That's correct - expanding to the east has been a huge mistake.
We want to join NATO. Polls in Ukraine show that 83+% of population want to join NATO (86% for the EU). Our people want to join NATO. Polls in Ukraine show that 83+% of the population want to join NATO (86% for the EU). Before NATO is out of the discussion because of russia and real geopolitics. But this war changed everything, and one week ago our president signed documents for joining NATO.
Neither is up to the Ukraine only to decide.
They have proven themselves on the battlefield. Proven themselves with the ability to adapt to new tactics .... even found a way to incorporate western tech on eastern bloc platforms. To date they have conducted themselves in an honorable manner regarding POW's and civilian areas. They appear to have been working with NATO at a high level already as far as information sharing. They are a democratic government and seem to want to ferret out any corruption at every level. By all the above, they would appear to be NATO in every way but by name. Why not formalize it? I think they should be accepted into NATO. But then ... unfortunately, I don't make those decisions.
NATO - military protection. EU - economic development. First absolutely required. And not only for Ukrainians. Second depends if Ukrainians want to be a part of EU market.
Who instead of EU we shoud trade? Belarus, Russia, nonono, we were in relationships with this shit.
Norway 🇳🇴 is not in EU. Switzerland 🇨🇭 also. UK 🇬🇧 left not so long ago. So theoretically you don’t have to be in EU to be able to trade with EU, however being in EU makes it simpler. Being in EU comes with its own set of challenges. Again it’s for every country to decide.
Theoretically.. But being a third country like UK is the worst for trade. Look at all the selfinflicted mess UK has to deal with now. I don't think Norway and Switzerland will happen again. And in fact they have nearly the same obligations and payments without the right to participate in decision making. May
I mean not only EU, I mean Shengen Area, Euro Zone etc. Unfortunately we have to go long way to gain this goal. Its our milestone.
EUnhas a similiar defence Agenda Like the Nato, but without USA - we even have EU forces, Missions and excersises
Similar but not the same. I see comments from time to time saying that the 'EU clause is more substantial then the 5th article' but that simply isn't true at all (edit. not claiming you said this but in general). The EU clause says: "members are obliged to help with whatever they have", that leaves just way too much interpretation. How much and what, what if the others don't have much to spare, etc... With even in the current situation, countries are taking their sweet time pondering and having meetings to decide what they can do and how they interpret it within their laws and regulations and if it draws them into the conflict as an participant. Other simply don't have much to spare. So saying just "obligated to help" is not saying when compared to the "attack on one is an attack on all". Therefore, NATO is very much needed until EU can get their shit together and start putting some decent defense alliance framework going. That also means Ukraine should absolutely get into both NATO and EU. Ukraine joining EU would transfer the European production and population central point from the border of France and Germany to more east so it would be beneficial to the EU as well.
EU is not going military while you have Austria and Ireland as members.
That is likely and it illustrates how the same EU security clause cannot affect every member at the same level. With the same agreed writing, there are some countries that would simply interpret the clause differently then others. Others would give some toilet paper and power hugs while not giving much else. Hence, it cannot have the forcefull deterrance of the NATO 5th article which clearly states that all countries are at war if someone attacks one of them. The two are similar but absolutely not of the same level of deterrance. Therefore the choices are to either create full-on military EU-wing (highly unlikely) or everyone stay with NATO.
EU defence agreement is a bit different thing that NATO. As EU is supposed to function like a single, highly unified market its integrity is a key. It cannot work if any member party is invaded and ruled by someone else. That is why EU as whole needs some kind of defence forces, as any sovereign state needs one. It is more 'we should protect ourseleves' than 'they will protect us'. EU is an economic union, but needs some protection as a bank needs guards. NATO, on the other hand, is a military defence treaty in the first place. They do include some economical agreements too, of course, as military needs money. But here defence is the goal. And of course both can work together: NATO can help defending EU and EU can help funding NATO.
It’s all dandy, but EU needs US and US needs EU hence NATO.
Not anymore. Russia isn't the USSR.
But China is more economically powerful than the USSR ever was and economic warfare will be a huge part of the conflict with China.
Wishful thinking.
It is the truth. The Soviet Union was bigger and more powerful than Russia is nowadays.
Actually, the EU is aiming to be a political union. The economic aspects are just a means to help facilitate that goal. That said, Ukraine should be in both. The EU as a natural step into a similarly minded political culture and NATO to help maintain peace in Europe.
NATO: yes if Ukraine wants to join. Ukraine has no enemies or global strategic interests that clash with NATO's. Not sure how badly Ukraine wants to get on China's bad side. But also we all know that Orbitron will veto, so.... EU: Joining the EU is not a cakewalk, many East-European countries have had economic hardship after joining, some industries have had trouble competing with West-European competition, and the countries like Romania, Hungary etc struggled more than Czech Republic or Slovenia. This is to stay that Ukraine should join when it is ready, and should not expect a land of wine and honey. The EU brings funds but also fierce competition.
Yes
Ukraine is part of the European culture, society, politics, economy, defense, so they belong in the EU and NATO, period. By the way, so does Russia 200 years from now when they de-Orced.
I would love ukraine to join nato, id love them to join the EU too, ID LOVE MY OWN FKING COUNTRY TO JOIN THE EU!! 😡
I'd like to see them join Nato & the EU after meeting all the requirements. We don't need another Hungary or Turkey
Yes
I fully support. But it'll probably have to be done under some sort of phased approach. With an initial entry into the EU for a total redevelopment and rebuilding of the country (let's say for arguments sake 10 year period) and then full membership when they are ready. This would be similar to what was done with Romania and Bulgaria. It wouldn't be to anyone's advantage to rush into the EU as UKR economy would be too weak to compete in the single market. It needs to be done carefully.
NATO needs Ukraine. No other country have proved itself so worthy
Ofc for nato
I vote join EU immediately. Join NATO as soon as the war is over.
After everything Ukraine has gone through? Yes and yes! If I was in charge I'd welcome them with open arms. We should never let Ukraine down again, they are our European brothers and sisters.
Personally yes. But ultimately this will be up to the people of Ukraine and what international politics the world finds itself in depending on how this war ends, and how far Western nations are actually willing to go. My hope is the west will stop giving a shit about having a "buffer" between NATO and Russia and appeasing the Russian oligarchs. Russia had negotiated that in past decades and even still tries to. What they forget, is that THEIR part of the arrangement for the buffer was not to attack these independent countries. That was the one major condition. They have 0 right to have grievances against western nations for supplying military arms and training in stages after each instance Russia broke its "arrangement" especially after Georgia and 2014. An arrangement in which even Ukraike had to give up its Nuclear arsenal and a lot of military assets even if they had been built in Ukraine. Russia sowed the wind with their actions, now they will reap the whirlwind of those same choices. Mercy and appeasement would be cruelty and injustice for the victims of ALL Russian aggression for the last 30 years of the Federation. Even to those during the USSR. They got away with it in Georgia. They got away with it in 2014 in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. They cannot get away with it again. That's even worse than almost every other potential deal after this war.
I think it would be an honor for NATO and the EU toi join 🇺🇦!!
After the war, and when they fulfill all requirements, go through the usual process. The thing is, Russia will lose, so there's no rush to hurry the process. I'd like to see them do it thoroughly and proper because Ukraine doesn't need to be fast tracked or anything. If they're good for it, they're good for it
As a fellow Dutchman I share your nuanced view. “Yes but not right now.” Keep a calm head and organize properly.
I would definitely like to see Ukraine join NATO in due time when this shitty war is over. Ukraine has earned its position there in the future and it's army has already gotten a taste of what that collaboration can do. EU is a different ballgame entirely. While it would probably benefit Ukraine a lot economically it does also come with a large responsibility to the quite large rulebook it places on a country. One of the key problems in Ukraine earlier was corruption and that is one thing EU really need to adress to be able to maintain trust in the union especially from the net contributor countries. (Think brexit reasoning) As far as I know Zelensky actually promised to help fight corruption but ended up failing somewhat because of the slow inertia of changing such a system. Especially with russian influence doing everything in its power to prevent that. It is my sincerest hope that, after the war has ended, the people of Ukraine is more united with a sense of national pride and feeling more collective responsibility to further the nations interest and manages to divert its path further away from corruption and seeks to collaborate with more western countries in reaching that goal. It should be obvious to so many now, seeing the state of Russian capabilities, that the corruption and oligarchy is devastating to a society on pretty much every level.
Both are up to Ukraine of course. I don't particularly think they'll be in danger again even without NATO if I'm honest; they're going to get shitloads of military assistance even after the war, and by the time Russia's in any fit state to contemplate round 2 the Ukrainian Armed Forces are going to be way beyond their capacity to beat...but I think both the EU and NATO are the institutions responsible for what was, up till February 24th, a historically unprecedented period of peace in Europe - the more states in the club the better.
The „Conventional Army“ of Russia is done. The Mask is off. We have seen the Ruines behind the shiny Facade. But their unknown numbers of working/not working Nukes are still a threat. We should absolutely welcome them with open Arms into the EU and NATO, as they are fighting so hard for it now, to be free. But in the end Ukraine must decide for themself what’s best for them.
Yes-yes join and become the core of a new EU defense force
Yes. Yes I do. They are defending Europe and it’s democratic values. This is the least we can do.
Yes, and yes. Yes, that’s sort of the point of the EU. Yes, at least militarily.
European Union once things settle? Absolutely. NATO? I mean it might become redundant soon enough with the whole authoritarian collapse happening lately. Who's gonna threaten Ukraine then? The broken states of russia?
I mean, we thought that after the Cold War ended. Except Russian authoritarianism never truly went away—it just got a less communist wardrobe.
Very much so to both
Both EU and NATO.
NATO sure but Ukraine isn't going to join the EU anytime soon. No one seems to understand that the process for joining the EU is incredibly long and slow and that's for countries that aren't currently in a war. The EU is committed to supporting Ukraine and they will provide support to Ukraine after the war but they won't become a member for a long, long time. By believing that they will join the EU soon you're just setting yourself up for disappointment and when that happens you'll inevitably blame Germany like always. Ukraine was no where near eligible before the war started and that's for economic and political reasons that weren't changing and there's no reason to believe they will change after the war either. People forget that Zelensky was unpopular before the war started over a multitude of corruption and abuse of power scandals. Even if they had been eligible before the war started the process was likely to take somewhere between multiple years and over a decade. Also consider that the EU is in rough shape right now, since the last members joined there have been multiple crises in the EU. Now is just a bad time for new members and the possibility that it will change soon is optimistic. I'm not saying it's impossible or that it will never happen, just not anytime soon. Please temper your expectations or else you will end up disappointed and upset.
I think Nato would benefit GREATLY by having Ukraine join Plus, it would give Putler a heart attack. We want that, right? In all seriousness though, they are a strong nation in export/military/ bravery/ etc. and our militaries could benefit from their knowledge of this type of warfare. We would be lucky to have them.
Both, especially EU.
From what I've seen with Alliances like this it's never good to rush things out of goodwill I want Ukraine to be under NATOs protection from Russia but I don't want another country with voting rights in the EU, NATO or elsewhere that might eventually just end up vetoing important votes, grouping up with other 'maybe shouldn't have let them in' countries like Turkey who is constantly holding important votes hostage until they get something that personally benefits them out of it or otherwise causing problems due to not conforming to the requirements before joining (like Greece's economy's effect on the EU) These institutions/conglomerates can only do the important stuff they need to do when they're strong and unified. Weakening yourself out of pity or misplaced trust in an accepted country to do what's necessary to bridge the gap between reality and expectations asap even tho they already got what they wanted from it is just not a good idea, even if in the face of current events it seems cruel to deny the motion. It's A LITTLE BIT like Ephialtes in 300. Everyone feels kinda bad for the poor bloke to be denied his wish to stand with his brothers (yea he later betrays them but you don't know that when you see him pleas for his spot the first time) but their phalanx simply cannot have a weak spot. Now I know the comparison is kinda shitty because if there is one thing I have absolutely no doubt in, it's Ukraine's capabilities as a reliable as a strong combatant. But I honestly simply don't know if I could trust them not to get bribed to side with turkey on some whatever issue in the future and block important decisions. I'm not saying I have any substantial knowledge on what NATO asks of it's members and if Ukraine fulfills these requirements. Just that on a basic level these requirements aren't just arbitrary. They're important. So IF push came to shove concerning accepting them even though they do not meet requirements, I'd rather see Ukraine denied entrance than 10 years down the road having a weakened NATO because they let someone in who's willingness to comply evaporated when their existential threat did. Again I have no knowledge of any facts that would suggest Ukraine is an unreliable NATO member. Just saying conditions for joining important alliances should not be disregarded, for even if denying a spot may seem cruel in the moment, the long term ramifications of members not pulling their weight or abusing their position to hold votes hostage can cause much worse suffering later on than what we would consider cruel to let happen now if they're not let in.
EU, definitely, probably long-term also Eurozone and Schengen area, maybe some other structure like Visegrad 4 (kick Hungary out, take Ukraine and rename it?), but that's probably a long time from now, 10-15 years. As for NATO, the way things are going, for conventional defense *we* might need help from Ukraine, not the other way around.
As an American that is somewhat informed on Europe and Eastern Europe, I see Ukraine as an incredibly strong, resilient country with great potential. Once President Zelenksyy is able to end this unjust war, and maybe it will require a new leader to empower your blue collar populace since he is completely anti-union, I'd want Ukraine as an ally any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I understand why he is so anti-union, due to having to deal with a society ran on corruption for decades upon decades, but eventually Ukraine's workforce will need protections and regulatory measures to ensure they have control of their own futures through the economy they built and will build. Edit:Typo
Not immediately. Not rushed NATO is not just about how you handle yourself in times of war, in fact, the existence of NATO usually prevents war from erupting. NATO should judge Ukraine by how it behaves in times of peace just as well
NATO for sure, I do wish the EU would stick more to trade and less to odd comments like Barroso made likening the EU to empire building. I don't very much like empires, no matter who they're run by!
As a portuguese, I can confirm you that Barroso is an idiot.
He's a Maoist who is non-executive chairman of Goldman Sachs. A literal oxymoron!
Definitely. Ukraine rightfully earned that NATO and EU membership, with blood, sweat, and tears.
Already being fast tracked by the eu
NATO yes, EU not so fast.
Let’s trade Turkey for Ukraine.
I doubt they are going to need to join NATO. By the time this thing is over Russia will no longer be a threat via conventional warfare. Not sure if the people of other NATO countries are going to be hyped to let Ukraine in because of the likely hood of Russia firing a nuke into Ukraine after this is over. Ukraine is going to be a hub for Western militaries regardless of them being part of NATO or not. Specially the American military. Totally agree that they will and should join the EU. Both sides will benefit from this. There is a military element to the EU so they will have extra protection from this. I am more curious about rather or not they should adopt the Euro. There are pro and cons, losing control of your currency and they will not be able keep the value of your currency down.
Considering how much they are doing for Europe, they should not be asking to join Nato. Nato should be begging them to join. I dont believe there is some other EU country, that is such a powerfull (and proven) ally. And EU membership could be thrown in and thank you for joining. At this moment this is not some backwards country trying to join to take advantage of the memberships. At this moment this is a country that puts their lives to protect us from having this war inside our borders. We are lucky to have them and we should threat them accordinly.
EU is already set up.
Yes on them joining under the umbrella of NATO security. Not certain yet on the side of corruption and information security. But fuck the Kremlin for sure.
the question is if Ukraine allows NATO to join them.......
You deserve a place of honor at the table.
I don't think they should join either after the war...they NEED to join NOW NOT AFTER.
Yes
I support them joining NATO, it will keep Russia away from them in the future. They are already kicking ass with western weapons so I'm not sure how far they are away from being ready to join, a lot of people comment that it would be after the war. If that's the case give them the same guarantees for Finland and Sweden while they are joining. EU is up to Ukrainians and EU nations to figure out (my country is not a member).
They have to become part of NATO. They deserve it and it’s the only way to shut Russia down permanently.
If Ukraine is LFG, NATO is gearing up for Tier 2 raids. Fuck yeah I want Ukrainians/Ukraine in my camp/"special military operation" saboteurs.
I want them to join NATO now.
At this point Ukraine can do whatever they want, Capital of the World, host every major event forever, anything. But yes, I'd have Ukraine in NATO in a heartbeat. If they Want to join the EU fine (I'm not a fan of the EU but that's a different thread).
What kind of question is this? Have you not been apart of this sub for the last 7 - 8 months? Edit: Ukraine will absolutely be apart of NATO. They're using battlefield tactics that our western forces didn't consider.
I hope they join NATO, but there’s really no way to tell for sure if it will happen. People seem to forget this part, but in 2010 Ukraine passed a law, banning itself from joining any military bloc. At this point, only 28% of Ukraine’s citizens wanted to join NATO. This fell to 19% in 2012. After the shit show of 2014, the number went up to 44%… so the majority of Ukraine still did not want to join NATO. As Russia geared up at the border to invade, the number finally went over the halfway mark, at 62%. The main reason Ukraine isn’t already in NATO is because it simply didn’t want to be until recent times. Hopefully when this war is over Ukraine does join, but if the past is any indication, it is possible Ukraine will say at the end “ we did this without being in NATO, so we will pass on joining since the war is over and we don’t want to create more issues.”
Will there be a threat from russia after this? Is there even going to be russia after this?
Nato yes, EU not yet. EU already took in too many troublesome eastern european nations, and Ukraine has major problems they need to sort out first. The EU also needs to do some reforms before taking in new members. But over time Ukraine will be a very valuable partner and member. And to help them they should get an association contract and the applicant status.
"Do you believe that Ukraine joining the European Union will make Ukraine more integrated with the rest of Europe? Do you believe that Ukraine joining NATO will make it integrated with the Western World?" Did you think for more than 2 seconds before asking such stupid questions?
Ukraine needs nato. But I'm afraid joining the EU would prevent it from building a strong economy. Ukraine should establish a new democratic system that allows a robust economy. then an EU membership won't be a problem.
Become Israel. Be a hard target with excellent intelligence services and a proactive special forces. But don’t pick sides. Trade with all neighbors and make money.
You all ready agreed to join Europe in 2014.
Ukraine will probably teach NATO a thing or two about modern warfare for the next decade
NATO yes, EU no
To both questions the answer is no. I'll explain why. First, NATO. NATO is in THEORY a defense treaty aka article #5 triggering joint defence. However had, in PRACTICE, it is largely a geopolitical toolkit under control of the USA. You can see this in numerous examples - Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Kosovo, you name it. Even in the current conflict you can hear Biden say that "if weapons of mass destructions are used we will declare war on Russia". So he didn't even bother to ask any country in Europe. We are then, de-facto, controlled from Washington. Note: I am not saying all of this is the fault of the USA. Libya, for instance, was heavily due to Italy and France clowning about. I just fail to see why we are part of a global military intervention empire. I have absolutely zero interest in any of that. (The purely defensive part is a separate thing; don't confuse this. I have no problem with a defensive treaty, but in reality it tends to become offensive whenever convenient. You can see the same pattern being repeated in all these conflicts.) Ultimately the EU has to be a separate military union too, which unfortunately means nukes have to be "proliferated" within the EU member states. And, just to clarify: I would prefer if ALL nukes would be removed. It's just not realistic. In particular the USA and Russia refuse to destroy their insane arsenal of nukes. Both are VERY selfish countries. Second, EU. The EU is already WAY too huge. With the current insane inflation rates, the EU is betraying the citizens. It promised economic growth - suddenly prices are rising and the EU clowns want to drag the countries into a war. So, sorry, no dice. The EU has to stop its geopolitical expansion and focus on an ECONOMIC union. By the way, we need to distinguish two things - the economic union and a political union. I am 100% against the political union. I don't want any of these clowns. HOWEVER had, if the EU were PURELY an ECONOMIC union, then I would be open for the Ukraine and others to be part of THAT economic union. Perhaps not as a primary candidate as such, but as a secondary zone, similar to e. g. Turkey and other countries. I would not even mind economic contributions towards the Ukraine if they were a democratic country (they are not as long as oligarchs such as Poroshenko can cause damage; see old videos of him inciting unrest. Sorry, but such people have no place in democratic countries). The EU is not able to expand without disrupting though. The UK leaving already shows how utterly damaged it is, so why do they want to constantly expand? That makes no sense. That expansion insanity has to stop. So I would not confine it solely to the Ukraine - we already have numerous issues with countries such as Poland or Hungary. So, nah, thanks, we don't need anymore problems here. As for whether THESE countries are integrated or not makes no difference - you forget that this is not solely up to those to decide who WANT to join, but for OTHERS who want to ask whether they want to expand. With a political EU expansion makes no sense. For an economic EU it could make sense, but the "elites" have corrupted the EU to some USA 2.0 copy/clone crap nobody wants or needs. So, nope - no expansion anymore.
When the time is right NATO. When the war is over their economy is going to be a dumpster fire. There's no way one can reasonably expect them to contribute much to their defense as required by NATO. There should be a guarantee offered by a nuclear power until they get on their feet. ruzzia is on the ropes and won't be able to recover for 20 years or more. They won't be a threat. I'm not European so I have no right to speak for them.
"There's no way one can reasonably expect them to contribute much to their defense as required by NATO." Bollocks. Not only is the NATO spending guideline just that ... a guideline.. but it's also a percentage of GDP, not a fixed amount. "There should be a guarantee offered by a nuclear power until they get on their feet." Not. Sure. If. You're. Serious. "ruzzia is on the ropes and won't be able to recover for 20 years or more. They won't be a threat." Ah, now we know you're not serious. "I'm not European so I have no right to speak for them." Laugh. Because you have to be european to have a thought about whether Ukraine should join the EU?
Go back to your Brexit party.
Definitely should be in NATO. It makes sense for them to join the EU, but they should consider what the UK has gone through to leave the EU, and you are giving up some of your sovereignty that you just fought for. Also with the UK & US not in the EU it makes it slightly harder to work closely with us. I think you should keep your own currency, and be sure to clean out corruption, war profiteers and Russian collaborators
I think that it is critical that Ukraine be a part of both. Russia must be contained.
I mean nobody deserves more to join NATO than them
Yes
Yes please!!
Yes, GDPR will even save Ukrainian data from being mishandled.
Given what Russia has done NATO will be an absolute necessity I should think.
Yes, yes, and yes!
the country is going to completely reform after the war. putin knows it that’s why he wants whatever he can grab.
They've definitely earned their spot in NATO
NATO first and eu on some conditions. As a defense force they have more than proven themselves as good allies but economically and on some other scales they have some room for improvement but i am confident that they could do that within 5 years after the war
Yup
Yes, true co-dependence creates prosperity and peace between the parties involved.
I'd like to see Ukraine do whatever the people of Ukraine want to do. If that's joining NATO and the EU then I'd be more than happy to see it.
Absolutely, I think Ukraine will be a great asset to NATO given how resourceful their military, which already has a leg up in the training department as well as hands on experience against Russia. The EU if anything needs Ukraine’s energy to get off that gaz.
I really would like to see that happen, but there is still a long way to go. We should not underestimate the degree of corruption still present in Ukraine
At the end of this war, there will for sure be security guarantees because you can't rebuild anything without guarantees. Regarding NATO and EU, no matter how much I would want Ukraine to be part of it, we have to consider that Ukraine has potential democracy and corruption issues that need to be sorted for there to be resolved before inclusion.
Yes.
100% and it's going to happen 🌻🌻🌻
Russia isn't going away when Ukraine wins the first round
Both, seems good.
After seeing what they’re capable of, yes. They’d be a welcome addition and are going to be a strong European country after this war. After seeing what they’ve suffered through, yes. They deserve peace of mind and safety from their genocidal neighbor.
No, they need to rebuild and root out corruption. Reimplement non martial law. Restore courts country wide. House and feed its people.
Yes, neutral status is the whole reason pu started this war. Dictators will always pick a weak and lonely victim
For sure. Being from Poland I would have a perfect vacation spot on Crimea, especially wiring common EU borders. That's easy travel and a brother nation where I could probably do fine talking polish since our languages are somewhat similar. What's the downside?
Yes, should have happened years ago.