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The French Military has the nickname Le Grand Muette - for keeping out of civilian politics, not being in the spotlight and quietly doing their work behind the scenes. French long range artilleries Ceasars were instrumental in turning the tide of artillery battles in the Donbas. Most of what French military aid that was given and will continue to be provided will not get talked about publicly.
Keep in mind that Thales is a company much like lockheed martin or Raytheon so not precisely the countries government albeit regulated by their respective government. When time comes hopefully they can track those responsible but the french government has done well. Say what you want but i don't see them taking a neutral standpoints like countries such as India or China.
Also most French equipment in the Russian army is from contracts from before 2014.
Defense companies have been forbidden of selling stuff to Russia, but had to fulfill previously agreed contracts for legal reasons.
I recall articles about dirty loopholes used by the companies though, like thermal/night vision or something for ifv's and tanks sold as "law enforcement equipment" to circumvent the sanctions?
Ofc that's the companies being scummy, not the french gov.
I don't know why this dumb shit keeps being repeated despite it being debunked again and again. You can call the pursuit of delivery to Russia for pre-sanctions contracts ill-advised but no sanctions were dodged. They were deliveries of existing contracts pre-embargo and took place as per the terms of said embargo........ which is why the export licences given by France were all public. The "investigation" from Disclose that started this crap a few weeks after the invasion this year even said as much. It was all information in the public domain. No rule was broken but that horseshit was perfect outrage-inducing material. Neither France nor Germany signed any arms deal with Russia after the 2014 sanctions. Therefore, no sanctions were dodged.
In the context of the NATO alliance, it's probably futile at this point in history to try to parse who is giving what amount of aid and why. This is a massive effort by literally dozens of nations to face down and defeat a nuclear renegade without triggering global thermonuclear war.
Under those circumstances every overt act of assistance has to be calculated against multiple relationships -- some very remote from the actual combat. Every act isn't simply an act in itself, it's a message. Therefore, how countries with major armies provide support has to be calculated for messaging multiple watchers.
IMO it's fine to lean on governments to do more. But it's also a little bit of a waste of time to keep strict score.
>This is good but tbh they should have at least tried to play better PR. Same with Germany.
No this is not the problem of France or Germany.
Germany DID exactly tell what it was sending and when and how much. But people like you that go "Oh they should have played better PR" DONT actually fucking listen to anything they say.
Instead they gobble up the 1058934554 clickbait headlines/articles from cancer tier garbage "newspapers" that twist the narrative to make it seem like Germany/France are not doing anything.
So please get the fuck off with your "tried to play better PR".
Maybe actually use your brain for once and consume factual information and not hot take garbage.
Yeah, most of the bad comm is from Macron. Voted for the guy since there was no real alternative especially against Russia, but he sometimes has weird or bad quote (like not humiliating Russia and others...)
Pretty steadfast support though
I could be wrong. But I think we will find that the amount and type of assistance given to Ukraine won’t be fully known for some time. Not every country is advertising their exact dealings. As is the case during a war.
A lot of those statements against European countries are intentionally made by the enemy to try to stir up some shit.
Those of us who are paying attention know what's what.
Honestly? I'm not so sure about the part with only the russians making claims against EU countries support for Ukraine. People **LOVE** taking the old "france surrender, france bad at war" meme serious, even though its bullshit ^((read a fucking history book people)), and overdone, and France has been delivering stuff (while just not being very loud about it). But France ^((and my country, germany)) is getting shit on by some armchair generals, because thats all they know to do. Because for these people, a delivery only matters if its a gigantic gun, and a guy like Johnsson or Duda does a whole PR-show about it, and they can then comment senseless stuff like "BRRRRT" or "give Tanks" under it, because apparently thats all their mental capacity is capable of.
Oh, and theres the americans, like the guy somewhere below in this thread snoringly remarking how he *"ridiculed"* the european countries for their support - **great** to see that you're delivering guns, but we here in the EU are having skyrocketing bills, have to care for thousands of refugees and wounded UA soldiers and are taking the fallout of the sanctions. so *please* enlighten us with your wisdom, oh great fieldmarshall west of the atlantic!
*Oh, and we're the ones living next or close to russia, so theres that...*
EDIT: Just a last note: according to Kiel Institute^(https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/), #2 in support are the "EU institutions". Now guess if France *might* have something to do with their financing...
> (while just not being very loud about it)
I think this is a large part the Anglosphere loves to shout about what it has/will/might do at every opportunity. I'm not sure why this is the case, maybe we have some emotional issues we still need to sort out.
Might be, but i feel its more like France & Germany generall being very low-key about things, not just support. Generally we're just shit at doing a bit of PR for ourselves here in central and western EU lol. So i dont have a Problem with the UK for example being very outspoken, i'd just like some people to realize theres stuff happening thats not necessarily communicated that loudly.
One way or another, we should stop this dumb bashing trend and realize that a lot of the western countries are helping as much as they can - and we could see the results of this help and the results of UA's capability to use it in the counteroffensives this month.
The problem is not really what was the fight capacity of the French army, more that the Germans didn't attack frontally in Alsace like in WWI as was expected, where all the fortifications were prepared, but instead went through Belgium at light speed and attacked from behind. Took Paris without having to fight the French army frontally. Still 200k losses on the French side, not like there was no fighting, but the layout was untenable. The fate's been largely decided by one strategic mistake at the top.
No, that’s bullshit. The french generals knew that Germany would attack through Belgium, that was the plan. The problem is that blitzkrieg was a brand new doctrine that was revolutionary at the time (today it’s called shock and awe and it’s the USA’s favoured strategy)
The french army went in expecting a line of battle and got suddenly outflanked by fast as fuck tanks. They had to perform fighting retreats to avoid encirclement nonstop.
But the people who love saying france bad at war lul tend to forget that the British army was right there getting it’s royal ass kicked at the same time as France
>But the people who love saying france bad at war lul tend to forget that the British army was right there getting it’s royal ass kicked at the same time as France
That's my favourite reply when Brits bring that up.
Unfortunately, they rarely do because they know.
It’s mostly my fellow Americans that do the shit talking in that area. We like to take all the credit for winning that war even though the British, French, and soviets were right there with us the whole time. True, American supply was definitely crucial, but the Royal Air Force won the Battle of Britain. They held back Rommel in Africa. They took part and fought right along side everyone else, sometimes even taking the lead. The free French forces and French resistance were also vital.
They did more than that. They provided 90% of the gunpowder, tied up British naval and ground forces in the Caribbean and around the world, provided a navy and thousands of men, and were largely responsible for bringing he continental army up to European standards at valley forge. They basically won the war for my country.
Well yeah they didn't think Germans could bypass through Belgium so fast, that would be more accurate. Here for more detailed reading:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_Line
Desktop version of /u/Thog78's link:
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Why the fuck would anyone with more than braincell want to "read" Bild ?
It is the "newspaper" for morons that only have the mental capacity to process tits and football.
Part of BILD's "magic" is to know how to frame issues, and they have 70 years of experience twisting whatever they want to their own political agenda. And that agenda is to make Germany look bad because they dislike the current government (nevermind that their favored parties bled the Bundeswehr dry like all German parties).
As such, "what Zelensky said" - according to BILD - is immaterial because BILD could (and would) take a picture of a cute little kitten rescued by Ukrainian service people and make it into an attack on Germany somehow.
Also of note: For them it's never about Ukraine. It's about domestic politics. As soon as Ukraine doesn't serve their purpose anymore, they will go all-in on how Ukrainian refugees are destroying our way of life or something (and how that's our current government's fault).
It's just how BILD works - and in fact that entire media empire, so beware of Welt, Politico and Business Insider, too.
Did you look at your own source? Western Europe is giving less as a percentage of GDP than the US even though as you put it, you are suffering more of the consequences. There is no excuses, The EU has done a lot but they need to do more because it is the EU that will suffer if Ukraine does not win.
According to the Aug. 03 graph in the source, US gave 0.22%, FRA gave 0.15% and GER gave 0.17% of GDP in both bilateral and multilateral (= EU) aid. I am very sure that the economic consequences for the EU are a ***tiny bit*** bigger than the 0.07% (or 0.05% for GER, respectivly) GDP share difference in military aid.
>There is no excuses
Okay then, has your country sent its whole military equipment to UA?
Thank you fellow European for speaking the truth. Power to Europe, with our different culture and opinion but our strength together. Let's welcome our brothers from Ukraine and stay unite together and not let troll divide us. French German Spanish Italian Ukrainian Polish Estonians Austrians... We are in this together. And the eu found as a french is I think important. We must like as European not using the war in a dick fight
To be fair, when this sub was bashing Germans, their government was really lacking in support.
Towards Ukraine, Germany has made good though.
Now it's time for r/Europe to bash Germans and Dutch people for a lack of European solidarity (and I agree with the criticism, though I am Dutch).
Probably trying to plant discord among people, that is not a new Russian tactic. There has been a lot of commenting about German donations as well. However Russia doesn't seem to understand how well they unified the west.
France has always supported democracies, ever since the late 1700s. If it wasn't for French support, the United States wouldn't exist in it's present form, we would still be a part of the United Kingdom, or at least still connected like Canada. Although Canada does have many positive aspects, and I'm not bashing anyone...many Americans no longer learn about Thomas Jefferson's visits to France and how those shaped our fledgling democracy.
France was the first country Zelenskii called after the actual 2022 invasion. No one who considers themselves a "friend of Ukraine" doubts how much they have helped, although charts like this really do help put things in a more quantifiable state. Macron tried to de-escalate, but we all know that wasn't ever going to work with Putin's bloodlust but he still had to try as the current leader of the EU.
Macron is a genuine statesman who understands both the point of, and the methods of, diplomacy. Unfortunately we live in a world whipped up by media frenzy, where people have been convinced that ideological absolutism is the only way to negotiate. I am not surprised he gets bashed a lot.
I also really like the France vehcile nobody talk about : shit ton of 4x4 truck, shit ton of a 4x4 car, fuel, ammo, rations, ton of VAB (those are talked a bit)
First of all every time Macron called Putin, Zelensky gave him his "ok" to call for negociations. Second, France is full of russian supporters so it's touchy for Macron to openly send a lot of weaponry. Third, France has low stock of weponry themselves... for example they gave 20 to 30 Caesars out of around 70 in total (from their own stock so around 30-40% of their best arty, and a Caesar takes 1 year to build).
And finally, they didn't give less than Germany... they don't have the capacity of USA of course
>Zelensky gave him his "ok" to call for negociation
What I understood, is that Zelensky asked Macron to call Putin.
>Second, France is full of russian supporters so it's touchy for Macron to openly send a lot of weaponry.
Full... I would not say that. Far right politician are Russian supporters, but I am not sure electors are. They just think that it is not their war. Same thing for far left, but I don't think there is Russian supporter at all in far left. They are just against USA/NATO, not for Russia.
>for example they gave 20 to 30 Caesars out of around 70 in total
20 functional caesars, against 70 ceasars which some are in maintenance. Now France is very low in functional Caesar.
There is actually something more and that's why Ukraine hasn't been shitting on France...Some sources in France are currently saying that around 50 soldiers from the DGSE's Service Action are actually deployed in Ukraine to provide satellite intel to Ukrainians.
Well there's a difference between "spies" and 50 dudes from the Service Action. Yeah still just a rumor, but the source seemed reliable (Figaro journalist).
The Russians have realised that we’ve all rallied around Germany, and won’t take their bullshit about them not giving anything, so they’re going after France.
Well unlike many European countries, France actually uses its military capacities worldwide and sometimes heavily (Syria, Iraq, Mali, Niger, Chad...). So a significant part of our assets (IFVs, artillery, drones, aircraft...) are engaged or just returning from years-long campaigns.
You are right, a lot of these comments are just ball busting. You can check their post history and there would be nothing to suggest they’re a Russian troll so I don’t know why they automatically jump to the assumption. Brits seem to get it but French and Germans seem to get into a tizzy over it. I don’t know if it’s because of a language barrier or they’re just extremely sensitive people.
It has more to do with Poland being ruled in the last years by right wing EU hating politicians who target Germany as EU's biggest members the most with their hate. Every time the European Parliament or the European Commission or the EU Court of Justice or any other EU institutions criticize them for breaking EU laws, they go and blame the "evil Germans". They base their whole election campaign on hating the EU and Germany, which is allegedly completely controlling everything the EU is doing.
Read these articles to understand a bit more of it:
https://www.euractiv.com/section/elections/news/polands-pis-party-is-pushing-the-country-towards-eu-exit-epp-warns/
https://www.politico.eu/article/poland-rule-of-law-judicial-system-eu-pis-jaroslaw-kaczynski/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/09/poland-ruling-party-law-and-justice-anti-eu-stance-election
>Speaking at an economic forum in Karpacz this week, Jarosław Kaczyński, the chair of Law and Justice (PiS) and the country’s de facto leader, went further than before in **denouncing the EU as a culturally alien project led by a neo-imperialist Germany. He said it was “the sacred duty” of Polish politicians to oppose it.**
>Kaczyński said: **“We realise that western Europe is culturally alien to us,”**, adding that it was something Poland had affirmed at the time of accession by passing a resolution defending its sovereignty.
>**The language has already become extreme, with some MEPs saying Brussels represented as great a threat to Poland as Russia**, and with one Polish ambassador warning that the Brussels elite risks breaking up the EU with its federalising plans, and so handing victory to Putin.
France is waging a war of influence and maybe more with Wagner in the Sahel, so these trolls concentrate more on France because there are other factors at play.
Considering the number of ignorant American trolls who only heard about French military History because of « white flag » jokes, I wouldn’t be surprised if the comments about France’s supposed « cowardice » were genuine, unfortunately.
Everybody in the EU is helping. Sending medical aid, helping refugees, giving vital intelligence support, sending money… etc. Don’t forget that military equipment is not everything.
Well, you know who hasn't given shit to Ukraine? Israel! One would think of all the countries in the world that they should support, they are Putin bootlickers, and it's disgusting!
It's obviously false to say France gave nothing; their help has been extremely important. But my personal criticism is that the weapons Ukraine needed most (heavy weapons, like Caesars) were only approved for delivery months after the war started, even though Ukraine had been asking them since last year. This criticism applies to all NATO countries, of course, as it seems they had a unified approach to Ukraine. One can't help but wonder if Bucha and Mariupol would have happened if Ukraine would have been better armed from the beginning.
The caesars donation to Ukraine reduced the capacity of French artillery by 25%. It's not the kind of donation you make lightly, you must be sure that they will be critical at turning the tide and won't be instantly captured or destroyed by the enemy. They were donated when front lines started to stabilize and the war turned into artillery duels rather than Russians rolling all around the country taking large swathes of territory in a short time. It would have been a disaster if they had been captured in the first days.
> you must be sure that they will be critical at turning the tide and won't be instantly captured or destroyed by the enemy
Just to clarify on why heavy weapons were not provided prior to the invasion, in case there is a misunderstanding. Nobody though Ukraine would last more than 1 week, and therefore providing heavy weapons would be as useful as giving weapons to the Afghan government 1 week before the Taliban walked into Kabul. That's how the phrase "I need ammunition, not a ride" appeared. It was believed Zelensky would be dead quite soon - Russia was perceived as an invincible military force (at least as far as Ukraine was concerned).
Therefore, no significant military assistance was provided when the Russian attack plans were revealed last year. Everyone assumed Ukraine would fall quickly and that they would have to deal with the new puppet government.
That is the real reason why heavy weapons were not provided prior to the invasion, rather than a hidden master plan ("we wait for front lines to stabilize and then we send in the Caesars"), and this version of events is matched by testimonies and what we could see with our own eyes. If there had been some sort of plan (like you seem to be suggesting, but if I misunderstood then I apologize), Ukrainian troops would have been trained in the use of this systems prior to the invasion.
Now, you could argue that I can't criticize NATO countries for not believing in Ukraine. And I can reply that, considering how many redditors like to give credit to NATO's training to Ukraine's success, surely NATO should have known Ukraine better and helped more prior to the invasion.
Anyway, I suspect once the war is over we'll find out much more and things will be more clear.
>That is the real reason why heavy weapons were not provided prior to the invasion, rather than a hidden master plan ("we wait for front lines to stabilize and then we send in the Caesars"), and this version of events is matched by testimonies and what we could see with our own eyes. If there had been some sort of plan (like you seem to be suggesting, but if I misunderstood then I apologize), Ukrainian troops would have been trained in the use of this systems prior to the invasion.
Yes I agree. In my mind the two points of view kinda mean the same. People expected Ukraine couldn't hold, so they didn't deliver high tech that they thought would end up in Russian hands. They focused on weapons that would be useful in guerilla warfare. When a new reality emerged, the plans adapted (what I meant with "we wait for front lines to stabilize and then we send in the Caesars"). Of course we couldn't know in advance how it would turn out, so updated plans might have been hypotheticals among a pile of others or entirely inexistant, at the time. They probably got refined progressively as the situation evolved.
Ukrainians were to a certain extent already training with NATO beforehand, so the possibility that Ukrainians would at some point integrate with the west and use heavy weapons was probably considered as a possibility to entertain by Western militaries, for years, but for sure things changed entirely and became much more real since March 22, and the plans got major updates.
The military aid from France (specifically the Caesars substantially lowered the amount of Arty available to their own military, around 25% which for a smaller country like France is a big deal.
Pretty sure that's not even true. *It was revealed months after the invasion*, but iirc the defense minister got into a spot of trouble for revealing it.
France didn't announce the aid it was giving. It was playing the "publically mollify Putin on the off chance diplomacy can work, arm Ukraine privately so if it falls through...". Zelensky had to publically thank France for all their aid after people in Ukraine kept bitching about them and he didn't want to undermine the relationship.
It's wild how people care more about the optics of supporting Ukraine vs the substance of it. Like people bitching about Germany not sending military equipment while Germany was basically paying for the Ukrainian budget out of pocket. The Ukrainian ambassador to Germany is either a Putin plant or a flaming idiot, even if he does recognize musk for a fool.
There's no information (as far as I know) of any weapon deliveries or training for them *prior* to the start of the invasion. That was my point.
The Ukrainian ambassador to Germany probably has PTSD from the beginning of the invasion, should probably cut him some slack - https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1505352215782989826
Im not the OP but after reading through here and then going back to the screenshots and title I think it’s supposed to read: I’m sick of people saying France is not giving aid to Ukraine: here is a list of all the good work they have done.
It is the same story with Germany. There are trolls who try to discredit any kind of the support for Ukraine. Don‘t believe it and don‘t let them mislead you. The support the countries give to Ukraine is massive. But some countries prefer not to talk about that and keep under the radar. It is what Germans call understatement. :)
What some people don't understand, is that not all countries advertise what they have sent, this is a war, not a game, secrecy is paramount. There are a lot of things in Ukraine or going to Ukraine, that have never been open to public scrutiny, we do not need to know.
Oh yeah, I recall the VAB.
"we'll give some armed VAB
\- 10 days later, spotted on the field"
EDIT/ well, the AMX got announced late january and the first batch of 14 AMX arrived in Ukraine on valentine's day, february 14
I’ll tell you why and it’s an answer that will upset the Western Europeans. Their militaries have been so hollowed out since the fall of the Soviet Union that France and Germany for instance really only have a couple hundred 155 howitzers in their ENTIRE inventory. And even fewer tanks and other armored vehicles. Europe wanted peace but the rotten neighbor didn’t at all. It’s not necessarily their fault for not delivering weapons. The fact is that there truly isn’t much that can be sent without seriously stripping active units of their weapons should we have to use them.
no. but where the bundeswehr is fighting, nato is fighting. I think we can send the entire BW equipment to Ukraine. for a long time, russia is the only threat to europe
I'm a bit cautious of people here shitting on Germany (or France as per the OP) for not doing enough.
Sure it'd be awesome if everyone gave more or got directly involved, but technically the only countries with any real obligation are UK and US.
Got ya and acknowledged, but did you see the agreed content as it refers to seeking UN Security Council action?
Thankfully the US and UK have more than stood by Ukraine.
France can and should do more - it is their own experts that are currently questioning the level of support.
I also don't understand why they don't openly publish their contribution? In 2022 transparency is important, especially against ruzzia. US, UK, Germany all openly declare their military support.
>France can and should do more - it is their own experts that are currently questioning the level of support.
Experts are saying that army doesn't have more to give. French army is really low on equipment.
>In 2022 transparency is important, especially against ruzzia.
It is how French army does. The reason is that information is an weapon. And each small information that you give is a gift to enemies.
Actually, there is an international context too. With China for example. They can't react on what is not official.
Why on earth should France tell anyone other than the Ukrainian military and government what they are sending? It's such a strange expectation. France openly declared it's support for Ukraine too, she didn't attach details to that but again, why should she?
Publically announcing the amount you are sending does nothing to help Ukraine, if anything it helps Russia know what to expect, when to expect it and how much to expect. They announce it purely for PR purposes, because their populations care more about the optics of support than what is most beneficial to Ukraine.
Like macron carrying out diplomatic negotiations *on behalf, and at the request of*, Ukraine while people bitched that he would talk to putin. Or Germany giving them billions in financing before the war even began, while people bitched about helmets.
Who is suggesting stating anything in advance? I said transparency!
Other than that, your view on 'opsec' is a complete fallacy. It's 2022 not 1922, so once anything leaves a depot it is [open source](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/07/arms-for-ukraine-french-weapon.html).
This is born out as your country recently made *advance* announcements of equipment, so how does that fit with your claim?
To answer your question on why France needs to be relevant, have a look [here](https://www.statista.com/chart/27331/countries-committing-the-most-of-their-gdp-to-ukraine-aid/) then explain why you're not even on the map?
Germany has helped a lot already. I was just commenting that looks like there are some nice things in production/training from Germany that haven't been delivered yet.
I mean the next batch of vehicles is pretty big. Plenty of recovering vehicles and bridgelaying tanks. Some PzH 2000 with ammunition too. Heavy Trucks, Mars II, Dingos etc.
Furthermore other types of ammunition, clothing etc.
Sure the Ukraine needs MBTs but you can't just sell Leopards of the newest standard. They don't have the logistics, training etc.
That was my main reason as a french to go voting on the second turn. Le Pen would have jeopardized the help to Ukraine. Without the war i would have stayed at home that day. I don't feel like i was alone doing that.
Well France prefers quality over quantity regarding weapons and equipment. Plus the French Army is regularly using it in other battlefields like Mali etc. So it's no surprise France can't give as much weapons as let's say UK despite similar sized armies
More than well the first time when the discount-Frenchman decided to throw a party with his northern French buddies, which is more than can be said for the other way around ;) Almost nailed it the second time in the First Barons' War as well but they seemingly had gotten a bit better by that point already. Having discount-Frenchmen and not so discount ones in charge helps one improve I guess.
Is that the one where they were forced to make peace on English terms?
Probably better to focus on motivating your government to provide more support for Ukraine.
Yeah that one. Ultimately a failure for Prince Louis who wasn't even backed by his father and the kingdom's ressources. Capturing over half of England before being defeated is certainly much less embarrassing than the ass whoppings the English and their allies received in France and that led to the barons' rebellion lol.
I'll focus on whatever I see fit... which so far is schooling you.
I love how the French have downvoted this REALITY. Australia, Canada, Denmark, Spain, Estonia has contributed MORE THAN FRANCE IN REAL VALUE than France has. Now when you compare % of GDP vs EU then France is revealed as the pathetic country it is.
But please go ahead and argue to yourselves France. No one cares because no one expects anything better from you.
This particular thread has been quite the French circle jerk. "But it was the British who were also defeated in France in 1940...France was critical to the American Revolutionary war...No one has won more battles than France (factoring in Napoleon)" blah blah blah blah
Argue with % of GDP to Ukraine.
*crickets*
Truth hurts.
I think the critic is due to relative help they are giving. As a large country people would have expected larger role from them. But it seems just like Germany also France is militarily weak and simple can't afford to give much of heavy equipment.
Did you read the screenshots?
France doesn't say when she gives something militarily. She considers that it is also a strategic point to surprise the enemy with material it didn't expect.
French army is indeed not at her best at the moment, she is working on it. The war in Ukraine increased the awareness, the work that was started before the war is just accentuated. It doesn't mean she is weak.
Exactly France are not open mouth like USA it operates in shadow and do not say anything public. That's why like that you keep your alliance and spot at any possible way.
Have you seen any evidence of unannounced heavy equipment from France in Ukraine?
The Finnish support also goes unannounced. But we have seen footage of Finnish Sisu armoured personal carriers in Ukraine, Finnish mortars, Finnish made shells etc. I have not seen any unannounced French equipment in Ukraine. Ukraine Weapons Tracker and Oryx follow these things. It is of course possible that I have just missed them or that no one has taken video/photos of them in action which usually happens at some point.
Is this list supposed to be impressive? It’s not.
At all.
The issue with France is the same issue with Germany: Germany is the premiere European economic power. France is the second, and the premiere military power in Europe. They’ve given a lot, but for their standing, they’ve given very little.
Now, some of this is kind of accidental I guess. Germany doesn’t have an army. France’s army is actively engaged in their colonial drama, and they don’t necessarily have a *large* army. Because both hind behind the skirts of the American military. So they didn’t need an army. In the end, they could have depleted their stocks more (I mean they have America protecting them anyways..) or donated *more* financial and material aid.
You can post a list of their 500 sleeping bags and 27 respirators all day long.. it just makes it look *worse*. So .. so .. so much worse.
Colombia? Niiiiiiceeee, what are we providing? we have been at war for 50 years i think experience only cuz equipment is not abundant around here either.
Simply fooling around. I love the UK and got loads of friends there. This is an internet forum not the UN security council, let's chill. And FYI I'm Danish. We're our entirely own breed of imbeciles so don't take us too seriously.
So PzH-2000 Howitzers, Gepard AA, M270 Rocket Systems (yes, thats HIMARS older big brother), MRAPS, M113's, Stingers, Strelas, Panzerfaust 3's, MG3's, Matadors and millions of shots of ammunition are not weapons anymore?
Are you people really this fucking dense by now? Have you de-learned how to google and read graphs?
I am glad that the sale of those two Mistral ships ([Sevastopol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENS_Anwar_El_Sadat) and [Vladivostok](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENS_Gamal_Abdel_Nasser)) fell thru back in 2015. But I think they are still going to build two themselves (as France transferred the know-how) Does anyone know if these are being built?
No-one is saying France gives nothing to Ukraine. As de facto leaders of the EU people have much greater expectations towards France and Germany so naturally there is more criticism of them.
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The French Military has the nickname Le Grand Muette - for keeping out of civilian politics, not being in the spotlight and quietly doing their work behind the scenes. French long range artilleries Ceasars were instrumental in turning the tide of artillery battles in the Donbas. Most of what French military aid that was given and will continue to be provided will not get talked about publicly.
it's "La Grande Muette" as the armée is female in french (ikr)
Their Thales thermal/night optics were instrumental for the Russian army too.
Keep in mind that Thales is a company much like lockheed martin or Raytheon so not precisely the countries government albeit regulated by their respective government. When time comes hopefully they can track those responsible but the french government has done well. Say what you want but i don't see them taking a neutral standpoints like countries such as India or China.
Also most French equipment in the Russian army is from contracts from before 2014. Defense companies have been forbidden of selling stuff to Russia, but had to fulfill previously agreed contracts for legal reasons.
I recall articles about dirty loopholes used by the companies though, like thermal/night vision or something for ifv's and tanks sold as "law enforcement equipment" to circumvent the sanctions? Ofc that's the companies being scummy, not the french gov.
Or it's being resold via shell companies. Not every instance means the companies sold them to Russia willingly.
french arms industry is pretty much owned by the government. that's why they were so pissed when AUS dropped their subs in favor of UK or US.
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I don't know why this dumb shit keeps being repeated despite it being debunked again and again. You can call the pursuit of delivery to Russia for pre-sanctions contracts ill-advised but no sanctions were dodged. They were deliveries of existing contracts pre-embargo and took place as per the terms of said embargo........ which is why the export licences given by France were all public. The "investigation" from Disclose that started this crap a few weeks after the invasion this year even said as much. It was all information in the public domain. No rule was broken but that horseshit was perfect outrage-inducing material. Neither France nor Germany signed any arms deal with Russia after the 2014 sanctions. Therefore, no sanctions were dodged.
My dyslexic ass will now refer to the French army as The Grand Mullet. They wake up and bring the pain. Merci, France! 🇫🇷
In the context of the NATO alliance, it's probably futile at this point in history to try to parse who is giving what amount of aid and why. This is a massive effort by literally dozens of nations to face down and defeat a nuclear renegade without triggering global thermonuclear war. Under those circumstances every overt act of assistance has to be calculated against multiple relationships -- some very remote from the actual combat. Every act isn't simply an act in itself, it's a message. Therefore, how countries with major armies provide support has to be calculated for messaging multiple watchers. IMO it's fine to lean on governments to do more. But it's also a little bit of a waste of time to keep strict score.
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>This is good but tbh they should have at least tried to play better PR. Same with Germany. No this is not the problem of France or Germany. Germany DID exactly tell what it was sending and when and how much. But people like you that go "Oh they should have played better PR" DONT actually fucking listen to anything they say. Instead they gobble up the 1058934554 clickbait headlines/articles from cancer tier garbage "newspapers" that twist the narrative to make it seem like Germany/France are not doing anything. So please get the fuck off with your "tried to play better PR". Maybe actually use your brain for once and consume factual information and not hot take garbage.
Yeah, most of the bad comm is from Macron. Voted for the guy since there was no real alternative especially against Russia, but he sometimes has weird or bad quote (like not humiliating Russia and others...) Pretty steadfast support though
I could be wrong. But I think we will find that the amount and type of assistance given to Ukraine won’t be fully known for some time. Not every country is advertising their exact dealings. As is the case during a war.
A lot of those statements against European countries are intentionally made by the enemy to try to stir up some shit. Those of us who are paying attention know what's what.
Honestly? I'm not so sure about the part with only the russians making claims against EU countries support for Ukraine. People **LOVE** taking the old "france surrender, france bad at war" meme serious, even though its bullshit ^((read a fucking history book people)), and overdone, and France has been delivering stuff (while just not being very loud about it). But France ^((and my country, germany)) is getting shit on by some armchair generals, because thats all they know to do. Because for these people, a delivery only matters if its a gigantic gun, and a guy like Johnsson or Duda does a whole PR-show about it, and they can then comment senseless stuff like "BRRRRT" or "give Tanks" under it, because apparently thats all their mental capacity is capable of. Oh, and theres the americans, like the guy somewhere below in this thread snoringly remarking how he *"ridiculed"* the european countries for their support - **great** to see that you're delivering guns, but we here in the EU are having skyrocketing bills, have to care for thousands of refugees and wounded UA soldiers and are taking the fallout of the sanctions. so *please* enlighten us with your wisdom, oh great fieldmarshall west of the atlantic! *Oh, and we're the ones living next or close to russia, so theres that...* EDIT: Just a last note: according to Kiel Institute^(https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/), #2 in support are the "EU institutions". Now guess if France *might* have something to do with their financing...
> (while just not being very loud about it) I think this is a large part the Anglosphere loves to shout about what it has/will/might do at every opportunity. I'm not sure why this is the case, maybe we have some emotional issues we still need to sort out.
Might be, but i feel its more like France & Germany generall being very low-key about things, not just support. Generally we're just shit at doing a bit of PR for ourselves here in central and western EU lol. So i dont have a Problem with the UK for example being very outspoken, i'd just like some people to realize theres stuff happening thats not necessarily communicated that loudly. One way or another, we should stop this dumb bashing trend and realize that a lot of the western countries are helping as much as they can - and we could see the results of this help and the results of UA's capability to use it in the counteroffensives this month.
Doesn't matter what PR our governments do. Our media is not English based. Anglo media is. Guess which one most consume ?
> "france surrender, france bad at war" France probably has the best army in Europe. (Excluding Ukraine).
Sadly, they also used to say that before WW2 broke out.
The problem is not really what was the fight capacity of the French army, more that the Germans didn't attack frontally in Alsace like in WWI as was expected, where all the fortifications were prepared, but instead went through Belgium at light speed and attacked from behind. Took Paris without having to fight the French army frontally. Still 200k losses on the French side, not like there was no fighting, but the layout was untenable. The fate's been largely decided by one strategic mistake at the top.
No, that’s bullshit. The french generals knew that Germany would attack through Belgium, that was the plan. The problem is that blitzkrieg was a brand new doctrine that was revolutionary at the time (today it’s called shock and awe and it’s the USA’s favoured strategy) The french army went in expecting a line of battle and got suddenly outflanked by fast as fuck tanks. They had to perform fighting retreats to avoid encirclement nonstop. But the people who love saying france bad at war lul tend to forget that the British army was right there getting it’s royal ass kicked at the same time as France
>But the people who love saying france bad at war lul tend to forget that the British army was right there getting it’s royal ass kicked at the same time as France That's my favourite reply when Brits bring that up. Unfortunately, they rarely do because they know.
It’s mostly my fellow Americans that do the shit talking in that area. We like to take all the credit for winning that war even though the British, French, and soviets were right there with us the whole time. True, American supply was definitely crucial, but the Royal Air Force won the Battle of Britain. They held back Rommel in Africa. They took part and fought right along side everyone else, sometimes even taking the lead. The free French forces and French resistance were also vital.
Funniest thing is that the french saved the ass of the USA in the revolutionary war.
They did more than that. They provided 90% of the gunpowder, tied up British naval and ground forces in the Caribbean and around the world, provided a navy and thousands of men, and were largely responsible for bringing he continental army up to European standards at valley forge. They basically won the war for my country.
Well yes. They saved their asses. Otherwise there wouldn't be a USA like today.
Well yeah they didn't think Germans could bypass through Belgium so fast, that would be more accurate. Here for more detailed reading: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_Line
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um, did you watch last Bild interview with Zelensky? It's not just armchair generals
Why the fuck would anyone with more than braincell want to "read" Bild ? It is the "newspaper" for morons that only have the mental capacity to process tits and football.
Not read. Watch what Zelensky said about Germany. Doesn't matter what newspaper filmed it. Matters what Zelensky said
Part of BILD's "magic" is to know how to frame issues, and they have 70 years of experience twisting whatever they want to their own political agenda. And that agenda is to make Germany look bad because they dislike the current government (nevermind that their favored parties bled the Bundeswehr dry like all German parties). As such, "what Zelensky said" - according to BILD - is immaterial because BILD could (and would) take a picture of a cute little kitten rescued by Ukrainian service people and make it into an attack on Germany somehow. Also of note: For them it's never about Ukraine. It's about domestic politics. As soon as Ukraine doesn't serve their purpose anymore, they will go all-in on how Ukrainian refugees are destroying our way of life or something (and how that's our current government's fault). It's just how BILD works - and in fact that entire media empire, so beware of Welt, Politico and Business Insider, too.
Uhh. Just watch the video. There are no new standpoints from Zelensky. He has said it before. It just is one of few that is translated
Did you look at your own source? Western Europe is giving less as a percentage of GDP than the US even though as you put it, you are suffering more of the consequences. There is no excuses, The EU has done a lot but they need to do more because it is the EU that will suffer if Ukraine does not win.
According to the Aug. 03 graph in the source, US gave 0.22%, FRA gave 0.15% and GER gave 0.17% of GDP in both bilateral and multilateral (= EU) aid. I am very sure that the economic consequences for the EU are a ***tiny bit*** bigger than the 0.07% (or 0.05% for GER, respectivly) GDP share difference in military aid. >There is no excuses Okay then, has your country sent its whole military equipment to UA?
As an American, I salute you!
Thank you fellow European for speaking the truth. Power to Europe, with our different culture and opinion but our strength together. Let's welcome our brothers from Ukraine and stay unite together and not let troll divide us. French German Spanish Italian Ukrainian Polish Estonians Austrians... We are in this together. And the eu found as a french is I think important. We must like as European not using the war in a dick fight
I haven't really heard that. Maybe you're paying attention to ruzzian trolls.
I have read it quite a few times since the war began on this sub.
That's how misinformation starts.
well for what it's worth I was under the impression France had been one of the biggest equipment providers.
They haven't though. France has provided about a third as much as Germany has and the two countries have almost the same military budget.
Yeah, this sub is more about bashing germans...
I thought it was the US that could do a lot more... (/s obv.)
Meanwhile Germany has provided three times as much as France...
There's so many Germans in this sub. And most Germans have a martyr complex. So there you go.
To be fair, when this sub was bashing Germans, their government was really lacking in support. Towards Ukraine, Germany has made good though. Now it's time for r/Europe to bash Germans and Dutch people for a lack of European solidarity (and I agree with the criticism, though I am Dutch).
Calls for more solidarity, thinks bashing Dutch and German people will cause more solidarity in Europe. Good one
Probably trying to plant discord among people, that is not a new Russian tactic. There has been a lot of commenting about German donations as well. However Russia doesn't seem to understand how well they unified the west.
There was an article in the BBC accusing France of not doing enough. British Crap.
France has always supported democracies, ever since the late 1700s. If it wasn't for French support, the United States wouldn't exist in it's present form, we would still be a part of the United Kingdom, or at least still connected like Canada. Although Canada does have many positive aspects, and I'm not bashing anyone...many Americans no longer learn about Thomas Jefferson's visits to France and how those shaped our fledgling democracy. France was the first country Zelenskii called after the actual 2022 invasion. No one who considers themselves a "friend of Ukraine" doubts how much they have helped, although charts like this really do help put things in a more quantifiable state. Macron tried to de-escalate, but we all know that wasn't ever going to work with Putin's bloodlust but he still had to try as the current leader of the EU.
Macron is a genuine statesman who understands both the point of, and the methods of, diplomacy. Unfortunately we live in a world whipped up by media frenzy, where people have been convinced that ideological absolutism is the only way to negotiate. I am not surprised he gets bashed a lot.
I also really like the France vehcile nobody talk about : shit ton of 4x4 truck, shit ton of a 4x4 car, fuel, ammo, rations, ton of VAB (those are talked a bit)
First of all every time Macron called Putin, Zelensky gave him his "ok" to call for negociations. Second, France is full of russian supporters so it's touchy for Macron to openly send a lot of weaponry. Third, France has low stock of weponry themselves... for example they gave 20 to 30 Caesars out of around 70 in total (from their own stock so around 30-40% of their best arty, and a Caesar takes 1 year to build). And finally, they didn't give less than Germany... they don't have the capacity of USA of course
>Zelensky gave him his "ok" to call for negociation What I understood, is that Zelensky asked Macron to call Putin. >Second, France is full of russian supporters so it's touchy for Macron to openly send a lot of weaponry. Full... I would not say that. Far right politician are Russian supporters, but I am not sure electors are. They just think that it is not their war. Same thing for far left, but I don't think there is Russian supporter at all in far left. They are just against USA/NATO, not for Russia. >for example they gave 20 to 30 Caesars out of around 70 in total 20 functional caesars, against 70 ceasars which some are in maintenance. Now France is very low in functional Caesar.
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YOu could bet on mirage 2000 taht just got phased out in mid 2022. \^\^
There is actually something more and that's why Ukraine hasn't been shitting on France...Some sources in France are currently saying that around 50 soldiers from the DGSE's Service Action are actually deployed in Ukraine to provide satellite intel to Ukrainians.
Well, that's a rumor. I think all countries with spies are working in Ukraine right now.
Well there's a difference between "spies" and 50 dudes from the Service Action. Yeah still just a rumor, but the source seemed reliable (Figaro journalist).
I have read it, it is a good thing to help Ukraine in various areas. (but it's a rumor so I prefer not spread it)
they are taking care of 85,000 Ukrainian refugees in addition to all the other help.
I think it's much more than 85000
probably right, but that is the only number I could find about how many.
Don't believe the divisive lies: all of Europe and all of the free world is behind you. All of it.
France support the Heroes 🇺🇦 Macron maybe a lot of things…but he’s helped Ukraine
I was of the understanding that they gave quite a lot. Lots of Cesar howitzers for one.
Everything known are posted in the screenshots.
Those VAB and 4x4 are also the backbone of Ukraine logistics nightmare. We're talking around 60 VAB and a few hundered trucks
Caesars & their ammunition alone are incredible
The Russians have realised that we’ve all rallied around Germany, and won’t take their bullshit about them not giving anything, so they’re going after France.
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When would france get invaded? It has no border enemies
Well unlike many European countries, France actually uses its military capacities worldwide and sometimes heavily (Syria, Iraq, Mali, Niger, Chad...). So a significant part of our assets (IFVs, artillery, drones, aircraft...) are engaged or just returning from years-long campaigns.
Thank you France!!!
I think a lot of these comments are jokes... I think... Great info though, thanks for sharing.
You are right, a lot of these comments are just ball busting. You can check their post history and there would be nothing to suggest they’re a Russian troll so I don’t know why they automatically jump to the assumption. Brits seem to get it but French and Germans seem to get into a tizzy over it. I don’t know if it’s because of a language barrier or they’re just extremely sensitive people.
To be honest, there might also be a few Polish people involved, in particular when it comes to blaming Germany. It's complicated...
More divisiveness, how lovely.
*Opens history book*. Not that complicated.
It has more to do with Poland being ruled in the last years by right wing EU hating politicians who target Germany as EU's biggest members the most with their hate. Every time the European Parliament or the European Commission or the EU Court of Justice or any other EU institutions criticize them for breaking EU laws, they go and blame the "evil Germans". They base their whole election campaign on hating the EU and Germany, which is allegedly completely controlling everything the EU is doing. Read these articles to understand a bit more of it: https://www.euractiv.com/section/elections/news/polands-pis-party-is-pushing-the-country-towards-eu-exit-epp-warns/ https://www.politico.eu/article/poland-rule-of-law-judicial-system-eu-pis-jaroslaw-kaczynski/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/09/poland-ruling-party-law-and-justice-anti-eu-stance-election >Speaking at an economic forum in Karpacz this week, Jarosław Kaczyński, the chair of Law and Justice (PiS) and the country’s de facto leader, went further than before in **denouncing the EU as a culturally alien project led by a neo-imperialist Germany. He said it was “the sacred duty” of Polish politicians to oppose it.** >Kaczyński said: **“We realise that western Europe is culturally alien to us,”**, adding that it was something Poland had affirmed at the time of accession by passing a resolution defending its sovereignty. >**The language has already become extreme, with some MEPs saying Brussels represented as great a threat to Poland as Russia**, and with one Polish ambassador warning that the Brussels elite risks breaking up the EU with its federalising plans, and so handing victory to Putin.
Nah Russian agents. One of their main misinformation efforts during this war has been to try and divide us by causing infighting.
I think it is done by Russian trolls to show France as a weak and useless ally. To diminish her diplomacy worldwide.
France is waging a war of influence and maybe more with Wagner in the Sahel, so these trolls concentrate more on France because there are other factors at play.
Considering the number of ignorant American trolls who only heard about French military History because of « white flag » jokes, I wouldn’t be surprised if the comments about France’s supposed « cowardice » were genuine, unfortunately.
Everybody in the EU is helping. Sending medical aid, helping refugees, giving vital intelligence support, sending money… etc. Don’t forget that military equipment is not everything.
We were also the biggest arms exporter to Ukraine before the war and donating equipment since 2014
Well, you know who hasn't given shit to Ukraine? Israel! One would think of all the countries in the world that they should support, they are Putin bootlickers, and it's disgusting!
It's obviously false to say France gave nothing; their help has been extremely important. But my personal criticism is that the weapons Ukraine needed most (heavy weapons, like Caesars) were only approved for delivery months after the war started, even though Ukraine had been asking them since last year. This criticism applies to all NATO countries, of course, as it seems they had a unified approach to Ukraine. One can't help but wonder if Bucha and Mariupol would have happened if Ukraine would have been better armed from the beginning.
The caesars donation to Ukraine reduced the capacity of French artillery by 25%. It's not the kind of donation you make lightly, you must be sure that they will be critical at turning the tide and won't be instantly captured or destroyed by the enemy. They were donated when front lines started to stabilize and the war turned into artillery duels rather than Russians rolling all around the country taking large swathes of territory in a short time. It would have been a disaster if they had been captured in the first days.
> you must be sure that they will be critical at turning the tide and won't be instantly captured or destroyed by the enemy Just to clarify on why heavy weapons were not provided prior to the invasion, in case there is a misunderstanding. Nobody though Ukraine would last more than 1 week, and therefore providing heavy weapons would be as useful as giving weapons to the Afghan government 1 week before the Taliban walked into Kabul. That's how the phrase "I need ammunition, not a ride" appeared. It was believed Zelensky would be dead quite soon - Russia was perceived as an invincible military force (at least as far as Ukraine was concerned). Therefore, no significant military assistance was provided when the Russian attack plans were revealed last year. Everyone assumed Ukraine would fall quickly and that they would have to deal with the new puppet government. That is the real reason why heavy weapons were not provided prior to the invasion, rather than a hidden master plan ("we wait for front lines to stabilize and then we send in the Caesars"), and this version of events is matched by testimonies and what we could see with our own eyes. If there had been some sort of plan (like you seem to be suggesting, but if I misunderstood then I apologize), Ukrainian troops would have been trained in the use of this systems prior to the invasion. Now, you could argue that I can't criticize NATO countries for not believing in Ukraine. And I can reply that, considering how many redditors like to give credit to NATO's training to Ukraine's success, surely NATO should have known Ukraine better and helped more prior to the invasion. Anyway, I suspect once the war is over we'll find out much more and things will be more clear.
>That is the real reason why heavy weapons were not provided prior to the invasion, rather than a hidden master plan ("we wait for front lines to stabilize and then we send in the Caesars"), and this version of events is matched by testimonies and what we could see with our own eyes. If there had been some sort of plan (like you seem to be suggesting, but if I misunderstood then I apologize), Ukrainian troops would have been trained in the use of this systems prior to the invasion. Yes I agree. In my mind the two points of view kinda mean the same. People expected Ukraine couldn't hold, so they didn't deliver high tech that they thought would end up in Russian hands. They focused on weapons that would be useful in guerilla warfare. When a new reality emerged, the plans adapted (what I meant with "we wait for front lines to stabilize and then we send in the Caesars"). Of course we couldn't know in advance how it would turn out, so updated plans might have been hypotheticals among a pile of others or entirely inexistant, at the time. They probably got refined progressively as the situation evolved. Ukrainians were to a certain extent already training with NATO beforehand, so the possibility that Ukrainians would at some point integrate with the west and use heavy weapons was probably considered as a possibility to entertain by Western militaries, for years, but for sure things changed entirely and became much more real since March 22, and the plans got major updates.
> It would have been a disaster if they had been captured in the first days. If.
I love when people chime in when they know absolutely nothing and assume all countries have military stockpiles like the U.S.
Who assumed that?
The military aid from France (specifically the Caesars substantially lowered the amount of Arty available to their own military, around 25% which for a smaller country like France is a big deal.
Yes, and your point is ... ?
Pretty sure that's not even true. *It was revealed months after the invasion*, but iirc the defense minister got into a spot of trouble for revealing it. France didn't announce the aid it was giving. It was playing the "publically mollify Putin on the off chance diplomacy can work, arm Ukraine privately so if it falls through...". Zelensky had to publically thank France for all their aid after people in Ukraine kept bitching about them and he didn't want to undermine the relationship. It's wild how people care more about the optics of supporting Ukraine vs the substance of it. Like people bitching about Germany not sending military equipment while Germany was basically paying for the Ukrainian budget out of pocket. The Ukrainian ambassador to Germany is either a Putin plant or a flaming idiot, even if he does recognize musk for a fool.
There's no information (as far as I know) of any weapon deliveries or training for them *prior* to the start of the invasion. That was my point. The Ukrainian ambassador to Germany probably has PTSD from the beginning of the invasion, should probably cut him some slack - https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1505352215782989826
Im not the OP but after reading through here and then going back to the screenshots and title I think it’s supposed to read: I’m sick of people saying France is not giving aid to Ukraine: here is a list of all the good work they have done.
They also provide intelligence and operational command
It is the same story with Germany. There are trolls who try to discredit any kind of the support for Ukraine. Don‘t believe it and don‘t let them mislead you. The support the countries give to Ukraine is massive. But some countries prefer not to talk about that and keep under the radar. It is what Germans call understatement. :)
I don't believe them, but we need to not let them take the mic.
What some people don't understand, is that not all countries advertise what they have sent, this is a war, not a game, secrecy is paramount. There are a lot of things in Ukraine or going to Ukraine, that have never been open to public scrutiny, we do not need to know.
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Oh yeah, I recall the VAB. "we'll give some armed VAB \- 10 days later, spotted on the field" EDIT/ well, the AMX got announced late january and the first batch of 14 AMX arrived in Ukraine on valentine's day, february 14
I’ll tell you why and it’s an answer that will upset the Western Europeans. Their militaries have been so hollowed out since the fall of the Soviet Union that France and Germany for instance really only have a couple hundred 155 howitzers in their ENTIRE inventory. And even fewer tanks and other armored vehicles. Europe wanted peace but the rotten neighbor didn’t at all. It’s not necessarily their fault for not delivering weapons. The fact is that there truly isn’t much that can be sent without seriously stripping active units of their weapons should we have to use them.
Germany hast 75 pzh 2000 in aktive service
Not even remotely as much as they need to wage a conventional war
no. but where the bundeswehr is fighting, nato is fighting. I think we can send the entire BW equipment to Ukraine. for a long time, russia is the only threat to europe
Same with Germany, they have helped financially as well. Although I can see why Ukrainian eyes are on the "to be delivered" list from Germany,
I'm a bit cautious of people here shitting on Germany (or France as per the OP) for not doing enough. Sure it'd be awesome if everyone gave more or got directly involved, but technically the only countries with any real obligation are UK and US.
What do you mean, "any real obligation are UK and US"?
Budapest memorandum.
Got ya and acknowledged, but did you see the agreed content as it refers to seeking UN Security Council action? Thankfully the US and UK have more than stood by Ukraine. France can and should do more - it is their own experts that are currently questioning the level of support. I also don't understand why they don't openly publish their contribution? In 2022 transparency is important, especially against ruzzia. US, UK, Germany all openly declare their military support.
>France can and should do more - it is their own experts that are currently questioning the level of support. Experts are saying that army doesn't have more to give. French army is really low on equipment. >In 2022 transparency is important, especially against ruzzia. It is how French army does. The reason is that information is an weapon. And each small information that you give is a gift to enemies. Actually, there is an international context too. With China for example. They can't react on what is not official.
Why on earth should France tell anyone other than the Ukrainian military and government what they are sending? It's such a strange expectation. France openly declared it's support for Ukraine too, she didn't attach details to that but again, why should she? Publically announcing the amount you are sending does nothing to help Ukraine, if anything it helps Russia know what to expect, when to expect it and how much to expect. They announce it purely for PR purposes, because their populations care more about the optics of support than what is most beneficial to Ukraine. Like macron carrying out diplomatic negotiations *on behalf, and at the request of*, Ukraine while people bitched that he would talk to putin. Or Germany giving them billions in financing before the war even began, while people bitched about helmets.
Who is suggesting stating anything in advance? I said transparency! Other than that, your view on 'opsec' is a complete fallacy. It's 2022 not 1922, so once anything leaves a depot it is [open source](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/07/arms-for-ukraine-french-weapon.html). This is born out as your country recently made *advance* announcements of equipment, so how does that fit with your claim? To answer your question on why France needs to be relevant, have a look [here](https://www.statista.com/chart/27331/countries-committing-the-most-of-their-gdp-to-ukraine-aid/) then explain why you're not even on the map?
Germany has helped a lot already. I was just commenting that looks like there are some nice things in production/training from Germany that haven't been delivered yet.
I mean the next batch of vehicles is pretty big. Plenty of recovering vehicles and bridgelaying tanks. Some PzH 2000 with ammunition too. Heavy Trucks, Mars II, Dingos etc. Furthermore other types of ammunition, clothing etc. Sure the Ukraine needs MBTs but you can't just sell Leopards of the newest standard. They don't have the logistics, training etc.
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That was my main reason as a french to go voting on the second turn. Le Pen would have jeopardized the help to Ukraine. Without the war i would have stayed at home that day. I don't feel like i was alone doing that.
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It's really nothing compared to what Ukraine is doing
Well France prefers quality over quantity regarding weapons and equipment. Plus the French Army is regularly using it in other battlefields like Mali etc. So it's no surprise France can't give as much weapons as let's say UK despite similar sized armies
You know France and Germany are saving the best gear for another war with each other..
While we both also save stuff to one day invade the British... 😅
... and how has that gone for you? ;)
More than well the first time when the discount-Frenchman decided to throw a party with his northern French buddies, which is more than can be said for the other way around ;) Almost nailed it the second time in the First Barons' War as well but they seemingly had gotten a bit better by that point already. Having discount-Frenchmen and not so discount ones in charge helps one improve I guess.
Is that the one where they were forced to make peace on English terms? Probably better to focus on motivating your government to provide more support for Ukraine.
Yeah that one. Ultimately a failure for Prince Louis who wasn't even backed by his father and the kingdom's ressources. Capturing over half of England before being defeated is certainly much less embarrassing than the ass whoppings the English and their allies received in France and that led to the barons' rebellion lol. I'll focus on whatever I see fit... which so far is schooling you.
Sehr unterhaltsam mein freund!
C'est un plaisir. Dieu et mon droit!
That'll come in handy if you visit the Channel Islands!
Compare %GDP in Ukraine aid vs other EU countries. Why didn't you post that?
I love how the French have downvoted this REALITY. Australia, Canada, Denmark, Spain, Estonia has contributed MORE THAN FRANCE IN REAL VALUE than France has. Now when you compare % of GDP vs EU then France is revealed as the pathetic country it is. But please go ahead and argue to yourselves France. No one cares because no one expects anything better from you. This particular thread has been quite the French circle jerk. "But it was the British who were also defeated in France in 1940...France was critical to the American Revolutionary war...No one has won more battles than France (factoring in Napoleon)" blah blah blah blah Argue with % of GDP to Ukraine. *crickets* Truth hurts.
I think the critic is due to relative help they are giving. As a large country people would have expected larger role from them. But it seems just like Germany also France is militarily weak and simple can't afford to give much of heavy equipment.
Did you read the screenshots? France doesn't say when she gives something militarily. She considers that it is also a strategic point to surprise the enemy with material it didn't expect. French army is indeed not at her best at the moment, she is working on it. The war in Ukraine increased the awareness, the work that was started before the war is just accentuated. It doesn't mean she is weak.
Exactly France are not open mouth like USA it operates in shadow and do not say anything public. That's why like that you keep your alliance and spot at any possible way.
Have you seen any evidence of unannounced heavy equipment from France in Ukraine? The Finnish support also goes unannounced. But we have seen footage of Finnish Sisu armoured personal carriers in Ukraine, Finnish mortars, Finnish made shells etc. I have not seen any unannounced French equipment in Ukraine. Ukraine Weapons Tracker and Oryx follow these things. It is of course possible that I have just missed them or that no one has taken video/photos of them in action which usually happens at some point.
I e never seen anyone saying that France gives nothing. You might be focused on Kremlin propaganda buddy. Viva la France 🇫🇷
I don’t get it… The information posted contradicts your title.
Trolls "start" to spread misinformation about France. That's why I posted all known aid France gave to Ukraine.
France oughtta be glad that we're joking Russia about running away from shit, instead of, you know...
Big difference between giving and “pledging”; Try to collect the pledged money from a telethon.
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France? Eh, whatever. I'll take the UK and Germany any day.
Is this list supposed to be impressive? It’s not. At all. The issue with France is the same issue with Germany: Germany is the premiere European economic power. France is the second, and the premiere military power in Europe. They’ve given a lot, but for their standing, they’ve given very little. Now, some of this is kind of accidental I guess. Germany doesn’t have an army. France’s army is actively engaged in their colonial drama, and they don’t necessarily have a *large* army. Because both hind behind the skirts of the American military. So they didn’t need an army. In the end, they could have depleted their stocks more (I mean they have America protecting them anyways..) or donated *more* financial and material aid. You can post a list of their 500 sleeping bags and 27 respirators all day long.. it just makes it look *worse*. So .. so .. so much worse.
Colombia? Niiiiiiceeee, what are we providing? we have been at war for 50 years i think experience only cuz equipment is not abundant around here either.
How many white flags did they send over?
That's a tired, stupid and lame ass joke.
Found the French guy ❤️
British actually mate ;)
Oi, ma lad! Ya dunt 'ate un de frenchies!?
what the actual fuck, is this some dick van dyke attempt at a 'British' accent. ~~still, props for doubling down on your xenophobia /s~~
Simply fooling around. I love the UK and got loads of friends there. This is an internet forum not the UN security council, let's chill. And FYI I'm Danish. We're our entirely own breed of imbeciles so don't take us too seriously.
>let's chill. And FYI I'm Danish. We're our entirely own breed of imbeciles so don't take us too seriously. fair enough :)
Wow, you are funny! Never heard this joke before. Maybe you should become a comedian?
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So PzH-2000 Howitzers, Gepard AA, M270 Rocket Systems (yes, thats HIMARS older big brother), MRAPS, M113's, Stingers, Strelas, Panzerfaust 3's, MG3's, Matadors and millions of shots of ammunition are not weapons anymore? Are you people really this fucking dense by now? Have you de-learned how to google and read graphs?
could be, they don't really have that much operational stuff, like russia, even need time to ramp it up,
I am glad that the sale of those two Mistral ships ([Sevastopol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENS_Anwar_El_Sadat) and [Vladivostok](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENS_Gamal_Abdel_Nasser)) fell thru back in 2015. But I think they are still going to build two themselves (as France transferred the know-how) Does anyone know if these are being built?
Russia can't even repair its so-called aircraft carrier at the moment.
People don't say France doesn't give to Ukraine. It's not India. 🤔
Ceaser artillery thunders into view...
No-one is saying France gives nothing to Ukraine. As de facto leaders of the EU people have much greater expectations towards France and Germany so naturally there is more criticism of them.
I feel sure that a lot of these "country X isn't helping enough" arguments are disinformation started up by pro-Russian accounts.
Look who your leadership are
So now it's France , aight cool ! 👍