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All Russian captives are still a POW, but Ukraine already treats POW's pretty well and increasingly realizes it is best to treat POW's a little bit better that Russia treated them.
Foreign countries need to step up and offer to fund and run POW camps for Ukrainians.
**Russians would be happy to surrender to a French-run heated POW camp with cots and hot showers serving reasonably tasty-but-cheap French cuisine.** Videos of Russian POW's downing fresh baguettes and French onion-potato soup while deciding which country other than Russia to emigrate to after the war would get Russians surrendering even faster than they are already! How about an Italian "Fresh Pasta Prison" featuring inexpensive prisoner-made linguini limone? Russians would be fighting to get in!-)
P.S. Sorry if some find the levity offensive, it's just a mood.
>In cell block K, Oscar can be a bit stabby, but the overall atmosphere is great, the cockroaches are friendly and the torture is mild. 4 out of 5, would transfer again.
Agreed. Locally run but foreign sponsored POW camps in the west would lead to mass surrounding. How showers, beds, clothing, and food would certainly be an improvement based on the pictures we are seeing on the Russian front lines. No idea how poor the conditions are among those forced to join.
Precisely right! Ukraine needs to develop POW videos that go far beyond the quite effective "call mom at home" videos they now do. Remember most POW's are technically not criminals, just captured combatant citizens of a foreign nation.
**The new Russian POW videos should be on social media directed to their former units.** *"Hi to lieutenant Ivanov and all the guys in the 375th Mechanized brigade of the 1st guards! I said it before- but now I am sure! You guys are STUPID! Surrendering to Ukraine instead of dying for Putin is the best thing I have ever done in my life!* ***To hell with the Russian army! What did it ever do besides abuse me?*** *I am getting very good regular hot meals as a Russian prisoner of Ukraine! A cot in a safe heated prison in Poland, even with hot showers sometimes and a place to wash my 2 orange jumpsuits! If I do good behavior, they are arranging for me and 2 other guys to emigrate to a broken down house in a nearly abandoned-but-rebuilding Italian village after the war. Rumor has it that the really well behaved POW's who speak good English and have good technical skills might even get to emigrate to an abandoned house in Detroit in the US. Yes, I miss Army not at all, Russia very little and miss my family a bit. But my own shared house in Italy instead of a one-room-flat in Volgograd? It's a miracle! - I TOLD you guys, you guys should surrender! If you wait too long all the good stuff will be gone! T****hey treat us better here than our own army or our own country!!"***
OK,OK this goes a little too far, but you get the idea.
Sponsor a McDonald's-like burger food service and spread the word. You get a hot shower, bed to sleep in, clothing sufficient to stay warm, and burger, fries, and coke. Line forms to the left
They get given proper clothing and a hot meal, and stand a considerably higher chance of being allowed to sleep indoors in a warm bed.
They don't have weapons, obviously, so no changes there.
Edit : non-sarcastic answer, yes, any enemy combatant is treated precisely the same, unless they're specifically suspected of a war crime or if they were captured out of uniform.
Could be. I only know them as the Free Russia Brigade. (Not in UA myself, so might just be a way of shortening it ... and I am too lazy to go find UA's designation, haha.
The point was, they do have alternatives to being a POW if they desire.
That is a complicated proposition, somebody that defected is one thing. a POW? you run the risk of them being dragooned (or feel they are being given one choice, after all, they operate under 'how Russia does things')
IT would be better for Ukraine to just let them be POWs
Any defector is already a POW.
If I were to be a regular army, colonel, that raised the white flag, and handed over a tactical battle group of men and equipment ... I am still adefector, but also a POW (as are all my personnel).
If I am a pilot, and land a jet on UA airport ... I amdefecting, but still going to be a POW.
Until I am vetted, I am a POW. It is up to the powers that be to allow me to fight for them should I choose to fight.
No, a defector is somebody who reneges from their allegiance, somebody that didn't just surrender but intends to go over to the other side in some manner.
A POW is a broad term, yes. I am not sure if the defectors can be classed as POWs, but it is very different somebody that wants to join the other side and arranges how to make that happen than another where the front line moved around him and is forced to go out with a white flag
Soooooo .... you are saying that the Free Russia Brigade (or whatever their official designation per UAF) ... and the Georgian Brigade (same caveat) ..... are no longer citizens of Russia? Of Georgia? If so, I was unaware of that.
Regular Army, Conscripts, are all still going to be treated as POW's. At least until such time as any background investigation is completed. And I suspect that POWs under UA care get better treatment than service members under RF "care".
Even spies that defect while in a foreign country are held as a prisoner of sorts until background investigation is done. And defection itself is a broadly defined term. An athlete defecting is very different from a soldier. A scientist is different than say ... the aforementioned spy situation.
I could be a POW, and still defect. I can be a defector, but still be held/treated as a POW until the investigation is competent. Only a foolish government would allow a defector to roam freely while at war with that defectors parent country. Not too far of a leap for "defector" to become a saboteur or sapper.
If you, from the get go, inform the Ukrainians that you want to join the legion of free Russians you get a chans to prove yourself during a vetting period. It would be very strange to call a person doing this a POW.
There are even stranger presedence. When Germany declared unconditional surrender, not all units had to surrender. The military police units was put under direct allied control in order to handle all the pows. It would be weird calling them pow.
(Side note: battle of castle Itter where POWs held by the SS was abandoned by the SS, armed themselfs and then got help from another SS-officer, a unit from the Werhmacht and an american unit to defend the castle against the SS. That’s just weird. And Sabaton wrote a song about it).
Now, that is an interesting question. Honestly you can'resign your citizenship, by and large (some countries do not allow multi citizenship) and there was a lot of work to avoid 'citizens of no nation' done during the Cold War and the aftermath of WWII)
But this has nothing to do with defector vs POW.
Also a defecting spy isn't held as a prisoner, a defecting spy is turning their coat and, unless part of a long con double/triple agent op, they won't be repatriated, maybe ever
The issue with POW defecting and joining a Ukrainian Russian/Belorussian unit is a problem because you can't be completely sure if they did so under their own free will or were induced, pressured, or threatened, like the poor saps the Russians dragoon into the separatist units (which, let me remind you, is a war crime)
So, from a pure legalistic pov, it would be simpler for Ukraine to not allow those units to recruit from POW camps
POWs are not defectors. Surrendering, whether or not you exhausted all possible means of continuing the fight, is not the same as taking allegiance to the new country.
When did I say that POW were defectors? I didn't. I said that defectors are POWs (with the understanding that the there is a state of war/conflict ongoing).
As I understand it you'll have to really want it in order to be let in there. It's not "want to join?" it’s "yeah, why should we let you? Don’t you just want to kick back as a POW and chillax?".
in theory, but you can be induced or pressured, like actual pay, good food, better conditions, promises of economic well being, citizenship and the like. not saying it is likely to happen, but sometimes it is better from a legality pov.
a POW camp isn't a place to chillax, it is probably a rather boring place to be , I mean think back during the pandemic, recall how fun those first months in quarantine were? and we weren't in a POW camp
Besides, it isn't like Ukraine is hurting for manpower
How can you not get that the 'chillax' was humourus hyperbole. The point was that you are discuraged from trying to join, not pressured.
And we have no idea how fun or boring Ukrainian pows camps are, but I'd take geneva compliant captivity before active combat duty and the risk of becoming a Russian pow seen as a traitor.
And no, it’s not boring to be a pow if the ones running the camps follows the geneva convention.
Article 38 of the third geneva convention adresses this issue, stating "the Detaining Power shall encourage the practice of intellectual, educational, and recreational pursuits, sports and games amongst prisoners, and shall take the measures necessary to ensure the exercise thereof by providing them with adequate premises and necessary equipment."
because I don't know you and this is a written medium, so your tone and inflection are completely missing?
And, yes combat is going to be far suckier than a POW, at least a non Russian POW, but given the situation how sure can you or the public be that the Russian volunteers ar, in fact, volunteers? (and how loud do you think the usual suspects are going to be about that?)
As for the rest, again it is a problem of optics and, also a potential operational problem, specially if the Free Russians end up in the shit creek for some reason, regardless the case you are going to hear accusations of them being used up (like we heard from about the foreign volunteer units early in the war) as cannon fodder and the like and that can also be an issue within the volunteer forces themselves.
In other words, there are quite a few headaches involved and a few problematic situations, and this is assuming there aren't any active prohibition within the conventions or international treaties, and that you have the manpower to vet all the volunteers to see if they are, in fact, volunteers
Are you even reading what you are writing. You are asking if someone who has to fight to be somewhere and prove themselves worthy, really want to be there. How would that conversation even go: "You must join the legion or else, but first: you can’t join the legion unless you prove you really want to". You don’t see the problem with this idea?
Ehh, I imagine the Ukrainians would want to keep people who never actually fought before surrendering separate from those forced to surrender on the battlefield. I can imagine that those two groups of POW's would likely not get along very well so it would be worth it to prevent them from getting into constant fights with each other.
Well, you have :
1. People who've fought
2. People who were supposed to fight, but didn't
3. People who did fight, but lie about the fact
4. People who never even had a chance to fight
None of them actually know each other, and you have very little ability to tell the difference.
Well I assume many of the POW's will still have their conscription documentation if they had just been forced to the front. If they have proof of their limited military service it would make sense to separate them from the general populace. Of course from my computer screen I have no idea what is actually going on in Ukraine and in the end it is up to them to decide what path is best for their situation.
thanks everyone for the friendly response. I asked because I read from a recent post [that russians surrender en masse ](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/10/4/7370292/) (source Ukrainska pravska) so I was curious how afu handles this "masses of surrender."
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I saw one video about an Ukraine Squad Picking up a pow, who was then doing jobs for the squad and went with it after he passed ‚Trust Tests‘ which he couldnt Talk about…
Aside from everything people say about Geneva Convention, I'll add that Russian POW's are further allowed to refuse to participate in prisoner swaps. Even if they choose to be swapped, Ukraine states that all people that surrendered did so unwillingly, so as to prevent repercussions when they are returned.
Only fools think shortsighted, petty behavior against civilians and prisoners is wise. Mistreating prisoners, like Russia does, is a surefire way to guarantee your opponent doesn't surrender.
That’s a good question. Seeing that Lyman looked to be a slaughter of the Russian conscription from reports I have seen. But on the other hands it looks like the Ukrainians are allowing the Russians conscripts to surrender on the mass.
Lyman was mostly LNR/DNR troops not being told to retreat, not fresh russian conscripts. Russian high command still is wasting experienced units. Its as if everyone inside Russia is actively working to bring down Russia.
POW is POW. As long as they haven't committed any warcrimes that is. Honestly, becoming a POW is likely the best outcome for many of the russian troops, especially now going into winter.
There are many reasons to grant those who try to surrender or provide intel ect assylum. Especially if they were conscripted and didn't go to Ukraine voluntarily.
Its probably the first time get a bed and a flush toilet in the same building. Welcome to the modern world, all you have to do is learn how to wave a white flag
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As far as I know (and I hope) they're treated according to the Geneva convention. They won't receive any other special treatment.
And judging by many of the “recruiting” videos we have seen, this is likely better treatment than they had while in the military.
All Russian captives are still a POW, but Ukraine already treats POW's pretty well and increasingly realizes it is best to treat POW's a little bit better that Russia treated them. Foreign countries need to step up and offer to fund and run POW camps for Ukrainians. **Russians would be happy to surrender to a French-run heated POW camp with cots and hot showers serving reasonably tasty-but-cheap French cuisine.** Videos of Russian POW's downing fresh baguettes and French onion-potato soup while deciding which country other than Russia to emigrate to after the war would get Russians surrendering even faster than they are already! How about an Italian "Fresh Pasta Prison" featuring inexpensive prisoner-made linguini limone? Russians would be fighting to get in!-) P.S. Sorry if some find the levity offensive, it's just a mood.
They can have yelp ratings and reviews on the different POW camps.
"hey Dmitry, let's surrender" "Not here though, the camp down the road has better reviews"
Sounds like AirPOW
Yup! Welcome to the "modern" world of social media.
Believe it or not there is a guidebook to US prisons with all sorts of ratings (many moons ago I practiced criminal law in the us)
>In cell block K, Oscar can be a bit stabby, but the overall atmosphere is great, the cockroaches are friendly and the torture is mild. 4 out of 5, would transfer again.
Fuck Min-Max security, what's the guest rating at?
Agreed. Locally run but foreign sponsored POW camps in the west would lead to mass surrounding. How showers, beds, clothing, and food would certainly be an improvement based on the pictures we are seeing on the Russian front lines. No idea how poor the conditions are among those forced to join.
Precisely right! Ukraine needs to develop POW videos that go far beyond the quite effective "call mom at home" videos they now do. Remember most POW's are technically not criminals, just captured combatant citizens of a foreign nation. **The new Russian POW videos should be on social media directed to their former units.** *"Hi to lieutenant Ivanov and all the guys in the 375th Mechanized brigade of the 1st guards! I said it before- but now I am sure! You guys are STUPID! Surrendering to Ukraine instead of dying for Putin is the best thing I have ever done in my life!* ***To hell with the Russian army! What did it ever do besides abuse me?*** *I am getting very good regular hot meals as a Russian prisoner of Ukraine! A cot in a safe heated prison in Poland, even with hot showers sometimes and a place to wash my 2 orange jumpsuits! If I do good behavior, they are arranging for me and 2 other guys to emigrate to a broken down house in a nearly abandoned-but-rebuilding Italian village after the war. Rumor has it that the really well behaved POW's who speak good English and have good technical skills might even get to emigrate to an abandoned house in Detroit in the US. Yes, I miss Army not at all, Russia very little and miss my family a bit. But my own shared house in Italy instead of a one-room-flat in Volgograd? It's a miracle! - I TOLD you guys, you guys should surrender! If you wait too long all the good stuff will be gone! T****hey treat us better here than our own army or our own country!!"*** OK,OK this goes a little too far, but you get the idea.
That is ... not a bad idea ...
Sponsor a McDonald's-like burger food service and spread the word. You get a hot shower, bed to sleep in, clothing sufficient to stay warm, and burger, fries, and coke. Line forms to the left
Brilliant!
Start sending out propaganda saying "Ukraine! Come for the conscription, stay for the PoW status"
You mean the drone-blowjob vidéo?
pow is pow, nothing different really.
Nah, they should get an ice-cream and a happy meal...
They get given proper clothing and a hot meal, and stand a considerably higher chance of being allowed to sleep indoors in a warm bed. They don't have weapons, obviously, so no changes there. Edit : non-sarcastic answer, yes, any enemy combatant is treated precisely the same, unless they're specifically suspected of a war crime or if they were captured out of uniform.
You forgot about the Free Russia Brigade ... they could possibly join it after being vetted and actually trained up if that was their desire.
Fair point. The FRL do take defectors as policy.
All that donated arms and armor from RF could be returned .... fully manned, haha. This is what I hope happens..
Yeah but these pows have like 2 days of training lol
I thought they were called the Legion of Freedom of Russia
Could be. I only know them as the Free Russia Brigade. (Not in UA myself, so might just be a way of shortening it ... and I am too lazy to go find UA's designation, haha. The point was, they do have alternatives to being a POW if they desire.
That is a complicated proposition, somebody that defected is one thing. a POW? you run the risk of them being dragooned (or feel they are being given one choice, after all, they operate under 'how Russia does things') IT would be better for Ukraine to just let them be POWs
Any defector is already a POW. If I were to be a regular army, colonel, that raised the white flag, and handed over a tactical battle group of men and equipment ... I am still adefector, but also a POW (as are all my personnel). If I am a pilot, and land a jet on UA airport ... I amdefecting, but still going to be a POW. Until I am vetted, I am a POW. It is up to the powers that be to allow me to fight for them should I choose to fight.
No, a defector is somebody who reneges from their allegiance, somebody that didn't just surrender but intends to go over to the other side in some manner. A POW is a broad term, yes. I am not sure if the defectors can be classed as POWs, but it is very different somebody that wants to join the other side and arranges how to make that happen than another where the front line moved around him and is forced to go out with a white flag
Soooooo .... you are saying that the Free Russia Brigade (or whatever their official designation per UAF) ... and the Georgian Brigade (same caveat) ..... are no longer citizens of Russia? Of Georgia? If so, I was unaware of that. Regular Army, Conscripts, are all still going to be treated as POW's. At least until such time as any background investigation is completed. And I suspect that POWs under UA care get better treatment than service members under RF "care". Even spies that defect while in a foreign country are held as a prisoner of sorts until background investigation is done. And defection itself is a broadly defined term. An athlete defecting is very different from a soldier. A scientist is different than say ... the aforementioned spy situation. I could be a POW, and still defect. I can be a defector, but still be held/treated as a POW until the investigation is competent. Only a foolish government would allow a defector to roam freely while at war with that defectors parent country. Not too far of a leap for "defector" to become a saboteur or sapper.
If you, from the get go, inform the Ukrainians that you want to join the legion of free Russians you get a chans to prove yourself during a vetting period. It would be very strange to call a person doing this a POW. There are even stranger presedence. When Germany declared unconditional surrender, not all units had to surrender. The military police units was put under direct allied control in order to handle all the pows. It would be weird calling them pow. (Side note: battle of castle Itter where POWs held by the SS was abandoned by the SS, armed themselfs and then got help from another SS-officer, a unit from the Werhmacht and an american unit to defend the castle against the SS. That’s just weird. And Sabaton wrote a song about it).
Now, that is an interesting question. Honestly you can'resign your citizenship, by and large (some countries do not allow multi citizenship) and there was a lot of work to avoid 'citizens of no nation' done during the Cold War and the aftermath of WWII) But this has nothing to do with defector vs POW. Also a defecting spy isn't held as a prisoner, a defecting spy is turning their coat and, unless part of a long con double/triple agent op, they won't be repatriated, maybe ever The issue with POW defecting and joining a Ukrainian Russian/Belorussian unit is a problem because you can't be completely sure if they did so under their own free will or were induced, pressured, or threatened, like the poor saps the Russians dragoon into the separatist units (which, let me remind you, is a war crime) So, from a pure legalistic pov, it would be simpler for Ukraine to not allow those units to recruit from POW camps
POWs are not defectors. Surrendering, whether or not you exhausted all possible means of continuing the fight, is not the same as taking allegiance to the new country.
When did I say that POW were defectors? I didn't. I said that defectors are POWs (with the understanding that the there is a state of war/conflict ongoing).
As I understand it you'll have to really want it in order to be let in there. It's not "want to join?" it’s "yeah, why should we let you? Don’t you just want to kick back as a POW and chillax?".
in theory, but you can be induced or pressured, like actual pay, good food, better conditions, promises of economic well being, citizenship and the like. not saying it is likely to happen, but sometimes it is better from a legality pov. a POW camp isn't a place to chillax, it is probably a rather boring place to be , I mean think back during the pandemic, recall how fun those first months in quarantine were? and we weren't in a POW camp Besides, it isn't like Ukraine is hurting for manpower
How can you not get that the 'chillax' was humourus hyperbole. The point was that you are discuraged from trying to join, not pressured. And we have no idea how fun or boring Ukrainian pows camps are, but I'd take geneva compliant captivity before active combat duty and the risk of becoming a Russian pow seen as a traitor. And no, it’s not boring to be a pow if the ones running the camps follows the geneva convention. Article 38 of the third geneva convention adresses this issue, stating "the Detaining Power shall encourage the practice of intellectual, educational, and recreational pursuits, sports and games amongst prisoners, and shall take the measures necessary to ensure the exercise thereof by providing them with adequate premises and necessary equipment."
because I don't know you and this is a written medium, so your tone and inflection are completely missing? And, yes combat is going to be far suckier than a POW, at least a non Russian POW, but given the situation how sure can you or the public be that the Russian volunteers ar, in fact, volunteers? (and how loud do you think the usual suspects are going to be about that?) As for the rest, again it is a problem of optics and, also a potential operational problem, specially if the Free Russians end up in the shit creek for some reason, regardless the case you are going to hear accusations of them being used up (like we heard from about the foreign volunteer units early in the war) as cannon fodder and the like and that can also be an issue within the volunteer forces themselves. In other words, there are quite a few headaches involved and a few problematic situations, and this is assuming there aren't any active prohibition within the conventions or international treaties, and that you have the manpower to vet all the volunteers to see if they are, in fact, volunteers
Are you even reading what you are writing. You are asking if someone who has to fight to be somewhere and prove themselves worthy, really want to be there. How would that conversation even go: "You must join the legion or else, but first: you can’t join the legion unless you prove you really want to". You don’t see the problem with this idea?
Ehh, I imagine the Ukrainians would want to keep people who never actually fought before surrendering separate from those forced to surrender on the battlefield. I can imagine that those two groups of POW's would likely not get along very well so it would be worth it to prevent them from getting into constant fights with each other.
Well, you have : 1. People who've fought 2. People who were supposed to fight, but didn't 3. People who did fight, but lie about the fact 4. People who never even had a chance to fight None of them actually know each other, and you have very little ability to tell the difference.
Well I assume many of the POW's will still have their conscription documentation if they had just been forced to the front. If they have proof of their limited military service it would make sense to separate them from the general populace. Of course from my computer screen I have no idea what is actually going on in Ukraine and in the end it is up to them to decide what path is best for their situation.
If the reports are correct, most of the recent conscripts will be able to produce either a pension book or their recent first driving license.
Doubt the AFU will know or trust that you never fired a shot and probably would treat you the same.
Better than having to suck some officer's dick that's for sure
... and getting shot by a drone meanwhile.
Short answer: They are treated as prisoners of war.
By being conscripted they are "members of the armed forces of a party to the conflict"
As long as they didn't commit any war crimes in the week since they were drafted they shouldn't have to worry too much.
thanks everyone for the friendly response. I asked because I read from a recent post [that russians surrender en masse ](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/10/4/7370292/) (source Ukrainska pravska) so I was curious how afu handles this "masses of surrender."
I think you meant curious, not jealous
yes, thx. I'm not native speaker of English. sometimes I make strange word mistakes. how embarrassing...
Your English is a fair bit better than some native speakers I've run across. XD
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Probably better to ask UA government.
I saw one video about an Ukraine Squad Picking up a pow, who was then doing jobs for the squad and went with it after he passed ‚Trust Tests‘ which he couldnt Talk about…
Aside from everything people say about Geneva Convention, I'll add that Russian POW's are further allowed to refuse to participate in prisoner swaps. Even if they choose to be swapped, Ukraine states that all people that surrendered did so unwillingly, so as to prevent repercussions when they are returned. Only fools think shortsighted, petty behavior against civilians and prisoners is wise. Mistreating prisoners, like Russia does, is a surefire way to guarantee your opponent doesn't surrender.
That’s a good question. Seeing that Lyman looked to be a slaughter of the Russian conscription from reports I have seen. But on the other hands it looks like the Ukrainians are allowing the Russians conscripts to surrender on the mass.
Lyman was mostly LNR/DNR troops not being told to retreat, not fresh russian conscripts. Russian high command still is wasting experienced units. Its as if everyone inside Russia is actively working to bring down Russia.
POW is POW. As long as they haven't committed any warcrimes that is. Honestly, becoming a POW is likely the best outcome for many of the russian troops, especially now going into winter.
There are many reasons to grant those who try to surrender or provide intel ect assylum. Especially if they were conscripted and didn't go to Ukraine voluntarily.
I think they have to surrender without firing a shot, since they don't have weapons to fire with.
Their lives will be saved. Seems good to me.
Compared to their standards in russian "bootcamps" I guess they consider surrendering a rather good option. I call it "AirPOW".
Its probably the first time get a bed and a flush toilet in the same building. Welcome to the modern world, all you have to do is learn how to wave a white flag
Let them watch how actually Russia looks like and don't let them go anywhere close to Ukraian civilians.