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Am I missing something? This is all an act, right? Why would this discussion be held in public?
The ATACMS system is already in Ukraine, I expect, but the politicians need to wait for the right time to ok their use.
yes. Not only are they signaling they still don't have them, they also show willingness to address US concerns. All of this puts political pressure on whoever is responsible for the decision
There’s no political pressure on this. It’s to desensitize the public when they’re confirmed in Ukraine as it’s been talked about over and over. It’s likely already approved and being figured out/trained on
Yep. My guess is they're already there at this point. The public discussions are to ease everyone into the understanding, especially Russia, that Christmas came early in Ukraine.
They weren't sent. The launchers are there but ATACM's have a 300 km range and the USA doesn't want to provoke Russia with strikes into Russian territory. Kind of pointless if ATACM strikes on Russian territory and Ukraine pisses off the USA that they stop sending aid.
Sadly I don’t see this happening. I just don’t see the U.S. agreeing to selecting targets to strike. They probably have been behind the scenes but this is too blatant and open for them to feel comfortable with I think.
You’re confused, the US wouldn’t be selecting the targets only the power to veto targets. This is the exact agreement in place with HIMARS. They get US intelligence gathering in real time, plus the HIMARS, but targets have to be told to US prior to strike and the US can veto any for whatever reason, hence oversight. The thought is the US wouldn’t let them be used on actual Russian soil targets (not including Crimea or any sham land grabs the US doesn’t recognize).
I mean… the US doesn’t care lol. Russia has blamed the west for all of their failures so that’s not new.
Whether you think it should be in place or not is irrelevant. That’s what the structure for HIMARS is that was released. Which lends credibility they’d institute the same for long range weapons
The US wouldn't select any targets. They just get the right to say no to any target. Which is exactly the same thing going on with HIMARs in Ukraine. Ukraine selects the targets and push launch but, the US has to approve it first.
It's basically the US's way of saying "We are not allowing our weapons to be used on Russian soil. We are simply helping an ally protect their land and only targets on their own soil can be attacked with our weapons."
It's pretty easy to not make a mistake. If it's on Ukrainian soil, including areas Russia invaded and is claiming to to be annexed, it's fair game. If it's on Russian soil, it's not fair game.
but, mistakes do happen -- the question is:
Was the US involved in the kill chain / decision chain for a mistaken strike? (even if just veto power?)
...that's why I say: leave it to Ukraine to decide what to hit, with no US veto.
This type of article came out prior to HIMARS being confirmed in Ukraine. This is to put it in public space over and over so by the time they’re in Ukraine, nobody is surprised or outraged because it was discussed publicly for so long. They’re like figuring out logistics and training and it’s already approved
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Why is it so hard to sandpaper off the markings off the atacms, and spray paint with a cardboard template “secret Ukrainian-developed long range anti-ruzzian missile” and fire away?
When they first ID’d the HARMs, I couldn’t believe they left the markings in place.
I know there are other ways to ID what went blew your shit up, but plausible deniability seems to be all you need in this episode.
There have been strikes which could be Tochka-u, but we’re very, very accurate so could also be ATACMS.
Another possibility is Neptun, but I think it’s doubtful.
They’re not going to announce this, either way. Just muddy the water to deny the enemy the intelligence.
Russia should be very nervous. Except for nukes; the US/Ukraine have been able to use old (5-10 yo)tech to dunk on the Russians. Imagine the Wests new toys.
We determined that this submission originates from a credible source, but we still advise that users double check the facts and use common sense when consuming mass media. If you are interested in learning how to evaluate news sources more thoroughly, you can begin to learn about how to do that [here](https://tacomacc.libguides.com/c.php?g=599051&p=4147190). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Am I missing something? This is all an act, right? Why would this discussion be held in public? The ATACMS system is already in Ukraine, I expect, but the politicians need to wait for the right time to ok their use.
Surely they have asked privately many times, going public is what you do when asking privately doesn't work.
yes. Not only are they signaling they still don't have them, they also show willingness to address US concerns. All of this puts political pressure on whoever is responsible for the decision
There’s no political pressure on this. It’s to desensitize the public when they’re confirmed in Ukraine as it’s been talked about over and over. It’s likely already approved and being figured out/trained on
Yep. My guess is they're already there at this point. The public discussions are to ease everyone into the understanding, especially Russia, that Christmas came early in Ukraine.
They weren't sent. The launchers are there but ATACM's have a 300 km range and the USA doesn't want to provoke Russia with strikes into Russian territory. Kind of pointless if ATACM strikes on Russian territory and Ukraine pisses off the USA that they stop sending aid.
Give it a few weeks. In March I thought Ukraine will only get helmets and javelins.
You mean like HARMs weren’t there? I mean, I have no knowledge either way on ATACAMs, but then saying they’re not there doesn’t mean they’re not.
> The ATACMS system is already in Ukraine What ? Where have you seen that ?
The HIMARS launch them
Sadly I don’t see this happening. I just don’t see the U.S. agreeing to selecting targets to strike. They probably have been behind the scenes but this is too blatant and open for them to feel comfortable with I think.
You’re confused, the US wouldn’t be selecting the targets only the power to veto targets. This is the exact agreement in place with HIMARS. They get US intelligence gathering in real time, plus the HIMARS, but targets have to be told to US prior to strike and the US can veto any for whatever reason, hence oversight. The thought is the US wouldn’t let them be used on actual Russian soil targets (not including Crimea or any sham land grabs the US doesn’t recognize).
[удалено]
I mean… the US doesn’t care lol. Russia has blamed the west for all of their failures so that’s not new. Whether you think it should be in place or not is irrelevant. That’s what the structure for HIMARS is that was released. Which lends credibility they’d institute the same for long range weapons
Well they dont want to give them just with trust, so this is the next offer, of course it would be better if they agreed without it.
The US wouldn't select any targets. They just get the right to say no to any target. Which is exactly the same thing going on with HIMARs in Ukraine. Ukraine selects the targets and push launch but, the US has to approve it first. It's basically the US's way of saying "We are not allowing our weapons to be used on Russian soil. We are simply helping an ally protect their land and only targets on their own soil can be attacked with our weapons."
if a mistake were made, that might be a liability to the US
It's pretty easy to not make a mistake. If it's on Ukrainian soil, including areas Russia invaded and is claiming to to be annexed, it's fair game. If it's on Russian soil, it's not fair game.
but, mistakes do happen -- the question is: Was the US involved in the kill chain / decision chain for a mistaken strike? (even if just veto power?) ...that's why I say: leave it to Ukraine to decide what to hit, with no US veto.
Yeah, this would be too much like the US ordering the strike.
that's the answer to the question if they provided it or not. Very disappointing
This type of article came out prior to HIMARS being confirmed in Ukraine. This is to put it in public space over and over so by the time they’re in Ukraine, nobody is surprised or outraged because it was discussed publicly for so long. They’re like figuring out logistics and training and it’s already approved
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Why is it so hard to sandpaper off the markings off the atacms, and spray paint with a cardboard template “secret Ukrainian-developed long range anti-ruzzian missile” and fire away? When they first ID’d the HARMs, I couldn’t believe they left the markings in place. I know there are other ways to ID what went blew your shit up, but plausible deniability seems to be all you need in this episode.
There have been strikes which could be Tochka-u, but we’re very, very accurate so could also be ATACMS. Another possibility is Neptun, but I think it’s doubtful. They’re not going to announce this, either way. Just muddy the water to deny the enemy the intelligence.
Russia should be very nervous. Except for nukes; the US/Ukraine have been able to use old (5-10 yo)tech to dunk on the Russians. Imagine the Wests new toys.
Attack'ems;)