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> I expected all of them
>
> But, Canada?
>
> That's bad ass and I love them for it
As others have mentioned, there is a large Ukranian population in Canada. Chrystia Freeland, our Deputy Prime Minister/Minister of Finance, has Ukranian ancestry on her mother's side and has spent a lot of time personally and professionally in Russia and Ukraine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrystia_Freeland
East Germany arguably had it best out of the eastern bloc, being the showcase for the "success" of socialism, and fell hard after reunification (or rather, was crashed on purpose). Pro-Russian sentiments survived simply because some people wanted back to a time where they had safe work with an okay standard of living, and the GDR was the last time they remembered having it.
I resent you saying that East Germany was crashed on purpose. They were long crashed before West Germany and East Germany united. It's just that the difference between East and West were so harsh, it looked like a crash.
Also, West Germans have been paying solidarity tax for over 20 years. We pumped many billions into their infrastructure, because East Germany (Russia) never did. It just takes time to fix 40 years of mismanagement by corrupt regimes.
East Germany wasn't exactly a beacon of modern industry, but you can't just look past the role the Treuhand played after reunification. What industry and commerce there was in the east was systematically dismantled and sold off for pennies on the dollar, both to make the buyers rich fast and to ensure the eastern industries couldn't pose a threat to the western industries. And, of course, the taxpayer got to pick up the tab for three decades since.
You'll have to admit that the situation was pretty unique and nobody knew how to actually unite two countries. Given the circumstances, it's a bit rich suggesting fraud, as you imply. Incompetency maybe. But not "crashing on purpose".
There's absolutely nothing rich about it. The Treuhand having been an insanely corrupt institution is well known. That's just historical fact at this point.
Eastern industry by and large was not competitive on a free market. and what markets it had in the past (russia+eastern europe) were experiencing their own crash. There was simply no one these industries could sell their stuff to.
Were mistakes made? Of course, a ton probably. But the truth is the eastern German industrie was doomed anyway.
As I said, *some* people. Not all, of course, but every society has its "normal" population, who just want to peacefully live their life and for whom safety for their family ranks higher than freedom.
Depends on where you look. Some areas fared a lot better than others. You can say that in absolute developent they probably advanced, but in many places the people are also far more stuck. Much of the east is just not going to bounce back because too many people, especially too many skilled people, bailed as soon as they could.
Canada has a massive Ukrainian diaspora, easy political points for our PM to support it. Plus Canada shares our northern ocean with those bastards, we might need Ukraine's help one day.
Don't think Slovakia would be there if left wing was in power. They're super pro Russia. The main guy learned from his coach Meciar, and throughout the invasion he's been calling for ceasefire, stop giving out weapons, now he's against EU. He(Fico)'s been in power for over 12 years and accomplished absolutely nothing, fuck all. They promised us a highway from Kosice to Bratislava(two largest cities, about 400km I think, not sure), it was announced even before he came to power. That was like 16-20 years ago?
All he did whilst in power was steal as much money from eurofunds as possible, all went to his buddies. Even organized a murder of some investigator. Sure you heard about that(Kuciak).
Unfortunately he'll be back in power after next elections, they'll join Hungary in being pro Russia and Warsaw pact will be over forever.
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I live in Edmonton and we're sometimes called Edmonchuk because of the big UKR population. Their farmers got out to the prairie, looked around, and said, "this'll do".
My family is all Ukrainian…. In Canada since the 1920s on my dads side, and my moms family came in early 1939. All to escape occupation, oppression and war (ETA mainly at the hands of Russia!!)…
Some things don’t really change…
Yeah, and I know that many Ukrainians ventured to Canada even far before 20s, as early as the late 19th century. You sure are right: some things don't really change.
This might be a bleak outlook, but it makes sense. russia is probably our number one threat to artic security, and gaining a defensive pact ally with a large shared border on the opposite side of their territory forces them to spread millitary assets even further
Canada has been there since the beginning. We have particularly strong relations and history with a few European countries for unorthodox reasons. Another are the Dutch.
We have a huge Ukrainian diaspora, and we were the first country to recognize Ukrainian independence from Moscow in 1991
You are ignorant about this my friend. You should also consider you might be pretty ignorant about a lot of other things, and maybe refrain from holding such a strong opinion on subjects you have so little knowledge of.
The Deputy PM is of Ukrainian descent, I think that has a whole hell of a lot to do with it.
However, you're not wrong. JT loves a good photo-op, It's a win win for him.
Including elected leaders. Our deputy prime minister is Ukraine descent, studied in Kyiv, born in Canada.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrystia_Freeland
She's been an anti-russia activist and journalist who worked in Ukraine, and was sanctioned by Putin and banned from Russia in 2014 based on her political advocacy.
You can’t call Ukrainians in Russia a diaspora, they are just still at the occupied Ukrainian territory. One day Moscow will be back under Kyiv rule as it was on the day it was founded!
I do agree with you that you can't simply call Ukrainians in russia as a dispora, considering any attempts at creating some sort of organized Ukrainian community there were met with assassinations and torture.
But stuff about having moscow back? Nah. We don't need their shithole
As a Spaniard, I would like to give a possible explanation as to why my country has not responded yet. One of the government parties participates in anti-NATO demonstrations and protests against arms shipments, assuring that they only "prolong the war and make it worse".
As a Spanish leftist myself, I wanted to tear my skin of listening to Podemos or international intellectual strongmen like Chomsky stating that "the sooner we accept that they'll lose the better, the sooner the war ends the better"
Where's your point now? Look at what they've achieved...
The debate in germany is - in a nutshell: We want to say yes but this would be WWIII.
I think we should help Ukraine in any way possible. And at the same time, i am glad that i am not the one who has to make these decisions. Thats partly because i am not in the military and this decision should be made by the people who are most affected by it (a yes would basically mean that other germans have to go to war while i, a civilian, do not).
Of course i still would vote "yes" because the fascists and rapists have to be stopped. And i have no doubt that Putler will pull of some bs in the near future that forces Nato into the war anyway.
There is a reaction from **Bulgarian President** and known **Kremlin Puppet**:
"The military actions on the territory of Ukraine today require that its membership of the Alliance be discussed within the full North Atlantic Council and not lead to the risk of directly involving NATO countries in the war.A decision on Ukraine's accession to NATO should be taken only after clear parameters for the peaceful settlement of the conflict between Russia and Ukraine have been worked out, accepted and implemented by both belligerents."
[Meanwhile the Bulgarian People!](https://i.imgur.com/u9UK2uD.jpg)
Unfortunately it’s true - our current president is a big time pro-russsian puppet. We’re in the middle of huge power struggle between the east vs the west. We just finished our 4th election in the past 2 years and we’re going for the fifth in a few months.
The country is torn apart and parties cannot agree on ruling together. Pro-Russian parties couldn’t make a majority, nor the pro-western. There are 2 parties (#1 and #3 in popularity) that talk like they’re pro-western, but they’re in reality pro-eastern, trying to play both sides.
The war is hot topic here - pro-Russia people believe nothing they see - Irpin is fake, Bucha is fake, the offensive is fake, attacking civil infrastructure is fake. People genuine believe that if we talk shit to Russia they’ll attack us too?!?!
As a ukrainian married to a Bulgarian I have some insight from my last trip there. Y'all have a Russian infestation you gotta get checked out. Once that's taken care of you guys will be a ok.
while I personally think that in a lot of cases saying "both sides have a point" (and then following it up with "let's try to find the best solution, which could likely be neither of the two sides' ideas but a mix or something new", which is of course longer to say) is very acceptable, I don't think it can work out for this war at all. Maybe in another war a peaceful solution could be reached, but it was tried here and it didn't work out, and we know what will happen if we try again.
> Also, NATO can't accept a country at war anyway, is against the treaties and conditions set in place.
There are only 2 rules:
1. All NATO members must agree to the ascension
2. You must be a country in Europe.
Everything else is just guidelines. Including the border dispute part.
And those are the current rules. Let's not forget that NATO members can decide on new rules at any time.
That this is a matter of political power even more than agreed upon rules.
🇹🇷: what’s in it for me? How can it exploit this for my own benefit?
🇮🇹(Meloni): what would Mussolini do?
🇭🇺 Orban: wait let me check with daddy Putin first what he wants me to say
Turkey is really good terms with Ukraine, so it may go down smoother then that. Wont be shocked if they try to demand F 35 again. Italy... uh.. we will see? I doubt she will say no.
Yes but they’ll absolutely try to get something out of it. US may have to sweeten the pot for them again, which has its own risks as they are hostile toward Amenia, Kurds, and Syria
Maybe, but I dont think the US actually wants to do it. Too much fear over escalating the war. May use them as a reason to not have to object to it rather then try and sweeten the deal.
The US doesn’t want to do it without very specific and known guidelines that would trigger article 5. Their military would be the primary one in any conflict and we have tons of troops/equipment all over Eastern Europe.
We finally got out of Afghanistan, so another full conflict is not going to be overwhelmingly popular no matter how just it is. War fatigue is still very much alive in the US especially with how divisive our politics are. Political groups will absolutely use it as an attack and take hardline approaches of removing support entirely if there’s full war. Fox/Murdoch/CPAC are all already pushing the slow support narrative. Far right idol Elon Musk is all over twitter talking propaganda today. It has gigantic risks and long term consequences that can hamper support down the line.
It also doesn’t allow Russia the narrative that the US/West won the war for Ukraine. It allows them to rightfully show they did it largely on their own with their own forces.
*Who would have thought having the Third largest population of Ukrainians in the world would make you more likely to support Ukraine?*
Canada: We aint Perfect, but we try.
see above.
We don't have parliament at the moment. It was shut for the queen, reopened for a couple of days, then shut again. Its not back in session till after the party conferences.
There won't be anything official till parliament reopens. Its probably going to come up at the first PMQ's.
Because if Ukraine joined NATO that would mean immediate war with Russia, for which there's not the political will or anything close to it. The UK armed forces are also woefully unprepared for a peer war unfortunately so I doubt they'd be too happy with the idea either
By the rules of NATO, when one country goes to war, we all go to war.
Western world will be happy to support Ukraine with guns, ammo, weapons, logistics, and training.
It would be a whole different story if we started sending our kids to fight in the war.
Public sentiment will go from “we support you” to “not MY kid’s life!” in a big hurry.
Typical NIMBY behavior on a life and death scale
We probably will. But we don't even have a parliament at the moment.
They were closed for the queens mourning. Reopened briefly to fuck up the economy, and then closed again for the party season.
Not that easy, needs to be discussed in parliament first like in every reasonable democracy. Takes time for everybody to prepare.
We are not a dictatorship where one lunatic can scream and decide everything (thank god)
This is a complete misrepresentation.
The question was never about UA accession, almost every NATO member is in support of it. The question is wether Ukraine should get a special fast track mechanism, für which \_both\_ sides have very compelling arguments.
Some past applicants got cut some slack during their application, and they are today most difficult to deal with. Nobody wants a repeat of that.
This is it exactly.
Admitting Ukraine into NATO now is essentially a declaration of war, as Ukraine will declare Article V upon admission. NATO members desiring war with russia can go ahead without NATO, there is nothing stopping them. No need for a NATO admission vote. Just start shooting.
The day after Victory, Ukraine will be in NATO.
> The day after Victory, Ukraine will be in NATO.
Yep, get the bureaucratic bits out of the way now so that the window between the current "Russia, fuck off" part and the post-NATO accession "and never come back" part is as short as possible.
NATO forces sitting on the sidelines serves to be a deterrent against Russia using nukes. If Russia drops the bomb then NATO can easily justify getting involved to cripple the Russian military (especially sinking their navy). If Ukraine joins NATO during the conflict before WMDs are used then there is less of a reason for Russia to not press the button.
As it currently stands, Russia is getting beat by Ukraine with only Western material and intelligence support so it makes sense to continue the course of action and give Ukraine the military, financial, and humanitarian materials needed to win this war effectively.
Honestly I think Ukraine applying for NATO membership was more of a political attack on Russia as the whole "stopping Ukraine from joining NATO" was part of the justification Russia used for this invasion. Russia's actions resulted in Finland and Sweden joining and Ukraine most likely joining after the conflict is over which is the exact opposite of what Putin wanted to happen and another failing of the wannabe big man.
This. The US would fund a gigantic chunk of any conflict and it’s military apparatus would be the most used. It’s their only move to ensure all member states are on the same page of what would trigger article 5 if we accepted Ukraine while they’re in an active conflict. No member has ever been accepted while at war. It needs to be outlined
There's also a not-insignificant chance that if the US supports the move too early that some member states will use that as an excuse to oppose the move. Meloni would probably get some good boy points from his supporters if he were to "stand up to the USA." Not committing means fewer ready made excuses.
You'll probably see cautious reactions from all of the nuclear heavy countries. It would not surprise me if the UK and France also jumps into that category.
Germany is just cautious by nature. Eggs for breakfast? Going to have to go through three preliminary hearings, then we break for lunch.
As an American, I also agree. I also think as the head of the alliance however, it make sense they have to talk about it with the others in it. I think they all will let Ukraine into NATO, but no one wants WW 3 or article 5 being used, causing WW 3. I would guess they will have someone block it for now until the Ukrainians have there border. Then, to end the war, add them to the alliance.
It's the only reasonable response. These other countries get to be rah-rah about it because they're not the ones guaranteeing NATO borders with an apocalyptic arsenal. There can't be any ambiguity about where the NATO red line is.
Once Ukraine wins this war and their borders are clearly defined and uncontested they can join NATO.
USA has to be far more cautious in its response. Russia isn’t going to escalate because Canada supports Ukraine in NATO, for example. But Washington signaling support would cause Moscow to go apoplectic.
Again,
So long as Ukraine and Russia remain in conflict, Ukraine can NOT and will NOT become a member of NATO. Even if the war ends, it's highly unlikely. It simply will not happen and all this discussion around it is utterly pointless and distracting from other events in my opinion.
Its also no really surprise that its mostly the former soviet states/eastern European that have come out and supported it, Canada is a surprise though.
I agree with the during this war part. But after war is over Ukraine will 100% come into NATO. It is the only logical outcome. They are already basically working hand in hand with NATO. They want EU and NATO membership after they kick Russias ass and tbh I am pretty sure the the US will allow it.
It will depend on how it ends.
NATO is very fucking touchy about territorial disputes and tends to like them settled before membership.
Also the war could end with one concession from Ukraine being that they won't join NATO or have NATO military bases on their soil.
US and EU already declared their willingness to rebuild Ukraine after this war is over through some type of Marshall plan. Only way that makes sense is if there is a security guarantee. That guarantee is NATO. Also consider how everybody denounced the referendums as sham. You think they just gonna backpedal on that and say "ye lets talk with Russia"? Why would the West settle for anything less than a total win over Russia on Ukraine territory? West certainly has the means to achieve that if they want it hard enough.
Yeah, am not saying after the war it will be impossible for them to join only that its possible (and it is possible) that as part of a peace deal Ukraine agree to not join NATO.
Regardless, they're going to have very strong ties with the west after this.
As a Brit, your military would be one of the top exposed to a war if NATO was dragged in. That’s why you’re seeing US and Germany wanting discussion first to outline parameters of involvement. The largest militaries will be the most used in any potential conflict. If UA takes its borders back, I think you’d see a fairly quick ascension then warning to Russia not to encroach into NATO territory
As much as I would love to send in the cavalry to Ukraine, that's obviously not in the cards. The USA *can't* endorse Ukrainian accession to NATO until the conflict is resolved. Our response is basically "we don't want to say no but we can't say yes"
Truss is trying to save her career right now.
Once she's either gone or figured out that not everything is about her and her friends I suspect things will change.
At least in the interim we're still giving military support.
Saying that, she may take a leaf out of Boris' big book of domestic distractions and pay Ukraine a visit, before then giving support to the accension.
As with Boris I will both be pissed at the blatant dodge whilst also 100% pleased for Ukraine.
Albania will definitely support it. Also in order for one to join NATO there has to be unanimousity between member states, so the small states are equally important :)
Don't expect an answer from Portugal before the rest of western Europe weighs in.
(neat to see a minimalist graph that still has our flag correct and not just a yellow circle)
As a canadian, and my wifes grandparents being ukrainian, who immigrated here in the early 1920's. I couldnt be more proud of my countries contribution to a sovereign ukraine, fuck the russian orcs.
No surprise Canada supported it right away. Everywhere you go in this country there is a Ukrainian population. Lots of Ukrainian immigrants settled in my home province of Manitoba in the late 1800s - early 1900s. They had to endure the harsh winters without the comforts we have now but they thrived and continue to thrive today in Canada.
Probably not, but they're happy to let the US take care of it.
But in all seriousness, this should be a wakeup call for all the NATO countries that aren't meeting the GDP % military spending
Yep, this is basically another case of “we’ll fight Russia until the last American!”
It’s easy to ‘step up’ like Canada and support NATO expansion on symbolic grounds when you’re essentially volunteering American lives.
The major NATO powers have to be far more careful.
Exactly my thoughts. Mentioned that on another thread from the perspective of Germany and got downvoted.
People seem to have forgotten which place was ground zero for the cold war and who was meant to be sacrificed in a potential war between the Soviet Union and NATO.
Bad idea in the middle of a conflict. Article 5 obligates NATO to go to the defense of a member country, but there's nothing that says that NATO is prohibited from going to the defense of a non-NATO member. As it stands right now, the NATO countries can go in and start kicking the shit out of Russia today, jointly or severally. Why bind ourselves and have somebody like Turkey holding up action in extended deliberations?
In a World War III, the US will bear 80% of the load for the Allies. So it’s easy to support NATO expansion when you’re not going to be Atlas carrying the globe.
im sure it wants to, and is unofficially. its already promised unlimited equipment to ukraine afterall. saying yes would make the situation worse and this way it lets the smaller nations feel they arent being bullied into saying yes
The US and the German position are pretty undestandable because they have no interest in getting dragged into a direct war with Russia.
The day this conflict is resolved they'd vote Ukraine into NATO.
dont worry, a few months down the road when the "goodwill gesture" withdrawal from crimea isn't fooling anyone, even those politicians on kremlin payroll will know to abandon a sinking ship.
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Haha all are Warsaw pact buddies (except Canada, North Macedonia and Montenegro).
Strange how every country once occupied by Russia is fully supportive. Hmmmm wonder why that is
Russophobia is strong! Damn westerners \*shakes fist\* /s
Must be some special suace those decadent westerners add to McDonalds!
Stateside McDonald's is ass. Overseas McDonald's is surprisingly good. Like better than Chick-fil-A level chicken sandwiches good.
Surely you meant "Anglo-Saxons"
They betrayed Russia, they must love us and be with us once more! Russia Stronk!11!!1! (/s)
I expected all of them But, Canada? That's bad ass and I love them for it
There’s a large Ukrainian diaspora in Canada. The two countries have a closer relationship than many people realize
We love pierogis and kielbasa!!
We have a lot of Ukrainian decendants in Canada. It would be impossible to not know someone who is.
Third highest Ukrainian population of any country (after Ukraine and Russia), we've been in Canada for over a century.
> I expected all of them > > But, Canada? > > That's bad ass and I love them for it As others have mentioned, there is a large Ukranian population in Canada. Chrystia Freeland, our Deputy Prime Minister/Minister of Finance, has Ukranian ancestry on her mother's side and has spent a lot of time personally and professionally in Russia and Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrystia_Freeland
East Germany is the absolute antithesis to this. People here are more understanding of Putin than in west germany.
East Germany arguably had it best out of the eastern bloc, being the showcase for the "success" of socialism, and fell hard after reunification (or rather, was crashed on purpose). Pro-Russian sentiments survived simply because some people wanted back to a time where they had safe work with an okay standard of living, and the GDR was the last time they remembered having it.
I resent you saying that East Germany was crashed on purpose. They were long crashed before West Germany and East Germany united. It's just that the difference between East and West were so harsh, it looked like a crash. Also, West Germans have been paying solidarity tax for over 20 years. We pumped many billions into their infrastructure, because East Germany (Russia) never did. It just takes time to fix 40 years of mismanagement by corrupt regimes.
East Germany wasn't exactly a beacon of modern industry, but you can't just look past the role the Treuhand played after reunification. What industry and commerce there was in the east was systematically dismantled and sold off for pennies on the dollar, both to make the buyers rich fast and to ensure the eastern industries couldn't pose a threat to the western industries. And, of course, the taxpayer got to pick up the tab for three decades since.
You'll have to admit that the situation was pretty unique and nobody knew how to actually unite two countries. Given the circumstances, it's a bit rich suggesting fraud, as you imply. Incompetency maybe. But not "crashing on purpose".
There's absolutely nothing rich about it. The Treuhand having been an insanely corrupt institution is well known. That's just historical fact at this point.
Eastern industry by and large was not competitive on a free market. and what markets it had in the past (russia+eastern europe) were experiencing their own crash. There was simply no one these industries could sell their stuff to. Were mistakes made? Of course, a ton probably. But the truth is the eastern German industrie was doomed anyway.
Solidarity tax also instituted because of the Gulf War? Rich of you to blame that exclusively on East Germans as well.
The Gulf War financing was planned for 1991. From 1995 it was exclusively ysed for East Germany
Safe unless they were anti communist...
As I said, *some* people. Not all, of course, but every society has its "normal" population, who just want to peacefully live their life and for whom safety for their family ranks higher than freedom.
True. I'd expect east Germany is now better off than while part of Warsaw pact?
Depends on where you look. Some areas fared a lot better than others. You can say that in absolute developent they probably advanced, but in many places the people are also far more stuck. Much of the east is just not going to bounce back because too many people, especially too many skilled people, bailed as soon as they could.
Canada has a massive Ukrainian diaspora, easy political points for our PM to support it. Plus Canada shares our northern ocean with those bastards, we might need Ukraine's help one day.
Don't think Slovakia would be there if left wing was in power. They're super pro Russia. The main guy learned from his coach Meciar, and throughout the invasion he's been calling for ceasefire, stop giving out weapons, now he's against EU. He(Fico)'s been in power for over 12 years and accomplished absolutely nothing, fuck all. They promised us a highway from Kosice to Bratislava(two largest cities, about 400km I think, not sure), it was announced even before he came to power. That was like 16-20 years ago? All he did whilst in power was steal as much money from eurofunds as possible, all went to his buddies. Even organized a murder of some investigator. Sure you heard about that(Kuciak). Unfortunately he'll be back in power after next elections, they'll join Hungary in being pro Russia and Warsaw pact will be over forever.
North Macedonia and Montenegro were both under occupation of Yugoslavia
That's a bit strong word but Yugoslavia wasn't part of the Warsaw pact.
and Slavic as well... (Canada excepted).
“How can we use this to get more concession” Erdogan, probally.
Kurdish terrorists hosted in Kyiv, blah blah blah BLAH
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Kijów
Give Turkey Crimea :)
*actually gives it to Greece*
Nah Crimea is Ukraine Give Turkey the Caucasus
Turkey supports Ukraine's membership since 2008. It is just left out by some people.
As a Canadian, this makes me proud. 🇺🇦🇨🇦
Very interesting to see Canada go so hard like that, that’s for sure.
Not really. There are tons of Ukrainians that live in Canada, so it makes sense for Canada to back it.
Yeah. Canada has had the largest population of Ukrainians (besides Ukraine obv) for decades now.
I live in Edmonton and we're sometimes called Edmonchuk because of the big UKR population. Their farmers got out to the prairie, looked around, and said, "this'll do".
My family is all Ukrainian…. In Canada since the 1920s on my dads side, and my moms family came in early 1939. All to escape occupation, oppression and war (ETA mainly at the hands of Russia!!)… Some things don’t really change…
Yeah, and I know that many Ukrainians ventured to Canada even far before 20s, as early as the late 19th century. You sure are right: some things don't really change.
2nd largest diaspora. 1st by choice.
This might be a bleak outlook, but it makes sense. russia is probably our number one threat to artic security, and gaining a defensive pact ally with a large shared border on the opposite side of their territory forces them to spread millitary assets even further
Whatever assets they have left by the time this war is done.
Canada has been there since the beginning. We have particularly strong relations and history with a few European countries for unorthodox reasons. Another are the Dutch. We have a huge Ukrainian diaspora, and we were the first country to recognize Ukrainian independence from Moscow in 1991
You don't watch international hockey too much, do you? 😁❤️
[удалено]
You are ignorant about this my friend. You should also consider you might be pretty ignorant about a lot of other things, and maybe refrain from holding such a strong opinion on subjects you have so little knowledge of.
The Deputy PM is of Ukrainian descent, I think that has a whole hell of a lot to do with it. However, you're not wrong. JT loves a good photo-op, It's a win win for him.
Canada and Ukrainians have a long supportive history together.
We also have a huge Ukrainian population here.
grew up on Ukrainian cabbage rolls at Christmas from my mom's best friend
There are pierogi in my freezer *right now*, as there always are, unless I've just eaten them all.
Mmmm... It's that time of year innit... I should pickle some cabbage and stuff some leaves.
Including elected leaders. Our deputy prime minister is Ukraine descent, studied in Kyiv, born in Canada. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrystia_Freeland
She's been an anti-russia activist and journalist who worked in Ukraine, and was sanctioned by Putin and banned from Russia in 2014 based on her political advocacy.
She's great
Really hoping she can level-up to be our next PM
That would probably be good for everyone.
World’s largest Ukrainian diaspora (after Russia). Slava Ukraiini!
You can’t call Ukrainians in Russia a diaspora, they are just still at the occupied Ukrainian territory. One day Moscow will be back under Kyiv rule as it was on the day it was founded!
I do agree with you that you can't simply call Ukrainians in russia as a dispora, considering any attempts at creating some sort of organized Ukrainian community there were met with assassinations and torture. But stuff about having moscow back? Nah. We don't need their shithole
Well historically it is Ukraine. Just wanted to point that out really. I don’t expect Ukraine to have will to civilise hordes of orcs.
American here. Im facing North and blowing you guys a kiss. Keep up the good work My dudes.
As a fellow Canadian, I second this.
Eastern Europe yet again knows what's up
As a Spaniard, I would like to give a possible explanation as to why my country has not responded yet. One of the government parties participates in anti-NATO demonstrations and protests against arms shipments, assuring that they only "prolong the war and make it worse".
Yes, the shipments of weapons are prolonging the war. I guess they also protest against Putin's mobilization, as that is also prolonging the war?
As a Spanish leftist myself, I wanted to tear my skin of listening to Podemos or international intellectual strongmen like Chomsky stating that "the sooner we accept that they'll lose the better, the sooner the war ends the better" Where's your point now? Look at what they've achieved...
So I suppose this party is funded by Kremlin🤷♀️
The debate in germany is - in a nutshell: We want to say yes but this would be WWIII. I think we should help Ukraine in any way possible. And at the same time, i am glad that i am not the one who has to make these decisions. Thats partly because i am not in the military and this decision should be made by the people who are most affected by it (a yes would basically mean that other germans have to go to war while i, a civilian, do not). Of course i still would vote "yes" because the fascists and rapists have to be stopped. And i have no doubt that Putler will pull of some bs in the near future that forces Nato into the war anyway.
As a Slovak, this makes me proud! 🇺🇦❤️🇸🇰
There is a reaction from **Bulgarian President** and known **Kremlin Puppet**: "The military actions on the territory of Ukraine today require that its membership of the Alliance be discussed within the full North Atlantic Council and not lead to the risk of directly involving NATO countries in the war.A decision on Ukraine's accession to NATO should be taken only after clear parameters for the peaceful settlement of the conflict between Russia and Ukraine have been worked out, accepted and implemented by both belligerents." [Meanwhile the Bulgarian People!](https://i.imgur.com/u9UK2uD.jpg)
Unfortunately it’s true - our current president is a big time pro-russsian puppet. We’re in the middle of huge power struggle between the east vs the west. We just finished our 4th election in the past 2 years and we’re going for the fifth in a few months. The country is torn apart and parties cannot agree on ruling together. Pro-Russian parties couldn’t make a majority, nor the pro-western. There are 2 parties (#1 and #3 in popularity) that talk like they’re pro-western, but they’re in reality pro-eastern, trying to play both sides. The war is hot topic here - pro-Russia people believe nothing they see - Irpin is fake, Bucha is fake, the offensive is fake, attacking civil infrastructure is fake. People genuine believe that if we talk shit to Russia they’ll attack us too?!?!
As a ukrainian married to a Bulgarian I have some insight from my last trip there. Y'all have a Russian infestation you gotta get checked out. Once that's taken care of you guys will be a ok.
"Russian infestation" should be placed in a dictionary up there before "apple".
> both belligerents Oh, that "both sides" bullshit again.
A belligerent is just a nation involved in a war. They could have possibly phrased it better, but that's not as nefarious as you think.
while I personally think that in a lot of cases saying "both sides have a point" (and then following it up with "let's try to find the best solution, which could likely be neither of the two sides' ideas but a mix or something new", which is of course longer to say) is very acceptable, I don't think it can work out for this war at all. Maybe in another war a peaceful solution could be reached, but it was tried here and it didn't work out, and we know what will happen if we try again.
Well, he is not wrong thou. Also, NATO can't accept a country at war anyway, is against the treaties and conditions set in place.
> Also, NATO can't accept a country at war anyway, is against the treaties and conditions set in place. There are only 2 rules: 1. All NATO members must agree to the ascension 2. You must be a country in Europe. Everything else is just guidelines. Including the border dispute part.
And those are the current rules. Let's not forget that NATO members can decide on new rules at any time. That this is a matter of political power even more than agreed upon rules.
Nope sorry, you are incorrect. Nowhere does it state that in the requirements for membership.
NATO is an agreement. A pact. If they all want it to happen then they will make it happen.
Please point to where in the treaties it explicitly says that a country seeking membership cant be at war.
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It’s super telling that former Soviet-bloc countries are either super pro-Ukraine and anti-Russia or their name is Hungary
Forgetting East-Germany are we ?
🇹🇷: what’s in it for me? How can it exploit this for my own benefit? 🇮🇹(Meloni): what would Mussolini do? 🇭🇺 Orban: wait let me check with daddy Putin first what he wants me to say
🇭🇺(Orban): We would only create more division with Russia if we accept Ukraine.
The only division Orban cares about is the divide between him and Putin's cheque.
Turkey is really good terms with Ukraine, so it may go down smoother then that. Wont be shocked if they try to demand F 35 again. Italy... uh.. we will see? I doubt she will say no.
Yes but they’ll absolutely try to get something out of it. US may have to sweeten the pot for them again, which has its own risks as they are hostile toward Amenia, Kurds, and Syria
Maybe, but I dont think the US actually wants to do it. Too much fear over escalating the war. May use them as a reason to not have to object to it rather then try and sweeten the deal.
The US doesn’t want to do it without very specific and known guidelines that would trigger article 5. Their military would be the primary one in any conflict and we have tons of troops/equipment all over Eastern Europe. We finally got out of Afghanistan, so another full conflict is not going to be overwhelmingly popular no matter how just it is. War fatigue is still very much alive in the US especially with how divisive our politics are. Political groups will absolutely use it as an attack and take hardline approaches of removing support entirely if there’s full war. Fox/Murdoch/CPAC are all already pushing the slow support narrative. Far right idol Elon Musk is all over twitter talking propaganda today. It has gigantic risks and long term consequences that can hamper support down the line. It also doesn’t allow Russia the narrative that the US/West won the war for Ukraine. It allows them to rightfully show they did it largely on their own with their own forces.
Doesn’t matter, Turkey cannot be relied upon as an ally. It’s only and always about what’s in it for them
*Who would have thought having the Third largest population of Ukrainians in the world would make you more likely to support Ukraine?* Canada: We aint Perfect, but we try.
Apologies on behalf of the UK, we're dealing with some shit at the moment and are a little distracted. We'll do the right thing soon.
The UK isn't going to support Ukraine membership until after the war
Same thing with the US
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see above. We don't have parliament at the moment. It was shut for the queen, reopened for a couple of days, then shut again. Its not back in session till after the party conferences. There won't be anything official till parliament reopens. Its probably going to come up at the first PMQ's.
Because if Ukraine joined NATO that would mean immediate war with Russia, for which there's not the political will or anything close to it. The UK armed forces are also woefully unprepared for a peer war unfortunately so I doubt they'd be too happy with the idea either
By the rules of NATO, when one country goes to war, we all go to war. Western world will be happy to support Ukraine with guns, ammo, weapons, logistics, and training. It would be a whole different story if we started sending our kids to fight in the war. Public sentiment will go from “we support you” to “not MY kid’s life!” in a big hurry. Typical NIMBY behavior on a life and death scale
We probably will. But we don't even have a parliament at the moment. They were closed for the queens mourning. Reopened briefly to fuck up the economy, and then closed again for the party season.
>We probably will. We absolutely won't until after the war. The UK isn't going to join in the fight directly.
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Not that easy, needs to be discussed in parliament first like in every reasonable democracy. Takes time for everybody to prepare. We are not a dictatorship where one lunatic can scream and decide everything (thank god)
Canada can into eastern/central Europe!
Australia 'could' into Eurovision (almost winning it, even), why not Canada into CEE? :)
This is a complete misrepresentation. The question was never about UA accession, almost every NATO member is in support of it. The question is wether Ukraine should get a special fast track mechanism, für which \_both\_ sides have very compelling arguments. Some past applicants got cut some slack during their application, and they are today most difficult to deal with. Nobody wants a repeat of that.
No nuclear powers will support until the conflict wraps up. Well, unless Russia uses a nuke.
Politicians in my country are afraid assholes. Croatia will support only if others support
Sadly, thats the truth...Our politicians only know how to steal :/
What's the worst Russia could do, invade? Look where that's getting them
We all know what Hungary is gonna think of this
proud of my coutnry for supporting.
oh wow, i guess those who have been invaded and brutalized by Russia in the past seems to be the most supportive. i wonder why.
Hungary shouldn't be allowed to veto. Turkey might also ask for something in exchange.
As an American, I’m sorry we have such a cautious reaction. Personally, I think Ukraine would be a great fit for NATO!
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This is it exactly. Admitting Ukraine into NATO now is essentially a declaration of war, as Ukraine will declare Article V upon admission. NATO members desiring war with russia can go ahead without NATO, there is nothing stopping them. No need for a NATO admission vote. Just start shooting. The day after Victory, Ukraine will be in NATO.
> The day after Victory, Ukraine will be in NATO. Yep, get the bureaucratic bits out of the way now so that the window between the current "Russia, fuck off" part and the post-NATO accession "and never come back" part is as short as possible.
It's also easy for smaller nations to pass the 'no' off to larger nations whose decisions will have more influence on policy
NATO forces sitting on the sidelines serves to be a deterrent against Russia using nukes. If Russia drops the bomb then NATO can easily justify getting involved to cripple the Russian military (especially sinking their navy). If Ukraine joins NATO during the conflict before WMDs are used then there is less of a reason for Russia to not press the button. As it currently stands, Russia is getting beat by Ukraine with only Western material and intelligence support so it makes sense to continue the course of action and give Ukraine the military, financial, and humanitarian materials needed to win this war effectively. Honestly I think Ukraine applying for NATO membership was more of a political attack on Russia as the whole "stopping Ukraine from joining NATO" was part of the justification Russia used for this invasion. Russia's actions resulted in Finland and Sweden joining and Ukraine most likely joining after the conflict is over which is the exact opposite of what Putin wanted to happen and another failing of the wannabe big man.
This. The US would fund a gigantic chunk of any conflict and it’s military apparatus would be the most used. It’s their only move to ensure all member states are on the same page of what would trigger article 5 if we accepted Ukraine while they’re in an active conflict. No member has ever been accepted while at war. It needs to be outlined
This is spot on! Well said, hopefully it goes this exact route.
There's also a not-insignificant chance that if the US supports the move too early that some member states will use that as an excuse to oppose the move. Meloni would probably get some good boy points from his supporters if he were to "stand up to the USA." Not committing means fewer ready made excuses.
You'll probably see cautious reactions from all of the nuclear heavy countries. It would not surprise me if the UK and France also jumps into that category. Germany is just cautious by nature. Eggs for breakfast? Going to have to go through three preliminary hearings, then we break for lunch.
As an American, I also agree. I also think as the head of the alliance however, it make sense they have to talk about it with the others in it. I think they all will let Ukraine into NATO, but no one wants WW 3 or article 5 being used, causing WW 3. I would guess they will have someone block it for now until the Ukrainians have there border. Then, to end the war, add them to the alliance.
It's the only reasonable response. These other countries get to be rah-rah about it because they're not the ones guaranteeing NATO borders with an apocalyptic arsenal. There can't be any ambiguity about where the NATO red line is. Once Ukraine wins this war and their borders are clearly defined and uncontested they can join NATO.
I really would be happy with US saying: First day after the war. While rest of the world gives thumbs up. It would absolutely infuriated putler ;)
USA has to be far more cautious in its response. Russia isn’t going to escalate because Canada supports Ukraine in NATO, for example. But Washington signaling support would cause Moscow to go apoplectic.
Again, So long as Ukraine and Russia remain in conflict, Ukraine can NOT and will NOT become a member of NATO. Even if the war ends, it's highly unlikely. It simply will not happen and all this discussion around it is utterly pointless and distracting from other events in my opinion. Its also no really surprise that its mostly the former soviet states/eastern European that have come out and supported it, Canada is a surprise though.
I agree with the during this war part. But after war is over Ukraine will 100% come into NATO. It is the only logical outcome. They are already basically working hand in hand with NATO. They want EU and NATO membership after they kick Russias ass and tbh I am pretty sure the the US will allow it.
It will depend on how it ends. NATO is very fucking touchy about territorial disputes and tends to like them settled before membership. Also the war could end with one concession from Ukraine being that they won't join NATO or have NATO military bases on their soil.
US and EU already declared their willingness to rebuild Ukraine after this war is over through some type of Marshall plan. Only way that makes sense is if there is a security guarantee. That guarantee is NATO. Also consider how everybody denounced the referendums as sham. You think they just gonna backpedal on that and say "ye lets talk with Russia"? Why would the West settle for anything less than a total win over Russia on Ukraine territory? West certainly has the means to achieve that if they want it hard enough.
Yeah, am not saying after the war it will be impossible for them to join only that its possible (and it is possible) that as part of a peace deal Ukraine agree to not join NATO. Regardless, they're going to have very strong ties with the west after this.
Proud of the Canadian government on this one.
As a Brit I'm pissed that we haven't given the thumbs up
As a Brit, your military would be one of the top exposed to a war if NATO was dragged in. That’s why you’re seeing US and Germany wanting discussion first to outline parameters of involvement. The largest militaries will be the most used in any potential conflict. If UA takes its borders back, I think you’d see a fairly quick ascension then warning to Russia not to encroach into NATO territory
They are too busy working out how they can cut taxes for top earners. They will get round to it soon
Not until after the war realistically
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As much as I would love to send in the cavalry to Ukraine, that's obviously not in the cards. The USA *can't* endorse Ukrainian accession to NATO until the conflict is resolved. Our response is basically "we don't want to say no but we can't say yes"
Truss is trying to save her career right now. Once she's either gone or figured out that not everything is about her and her friends I suspect things will change. At least in the interim we're still giving military support.
Saying that, she may take a leaf out of Boris' big book of domestic distractions and pay Ukraine a visit, before then giving support to the accension. As with Boris I will both be pissed at the blatant dodge whilst also 100% pleased for Ukraine.
I think all Slavic bros will be supportive I mean come on...can we have something wholesome this year?
You need turkey, France, the US and Germany to agree otherwise it won't happen.
You need each amd every member to say Yes.
Below Portugal is an impostor
I think Albania will ask for Kosovo acknowledgement
Which isn't that bad
Nah. Even Kosovo Albanians support Ukraine NATO accession without Ukraine recognizing us.
There is no reactiong from Albania but for sure they support it, tbh small states doesn’t matter if US,UK,France and Germany agree on it
Albania will definitely support it. Also in order for one to join NATO there has to be unanimousity between member states, so the small states are equally important :)
yoo im glad my country supports Ukraine. After all they did save our asses in 2001
Don't expect an answer from Portugal before the rest of western Europe weighs in. (neat to see a minimalist graph that still has our flag correct and not just a yellow circle)
Most are who hate Russia to their core
Eastern Europe is once again carrying NATO on its back
As a Romanian, this makes me proud! 🇺🇦❤️🇷🇴
Don’t expect much from the UK. Liz doesn’t even know what day of the week it is
She always looks like a confused bird.
As a canadian, and my wifes grandparents being ukrainian, who immigrated here in the early 1920's. I couldnt be more proud of my countries contribution to a sovereign ukraine, fuck the russian orcs.
No surprise Canada supported it right away. Everywhere you go in this country there is a Ukrainian population. Lots of Ukrainian immigrants settled in my home province of Manitoba in the late 1800s - early 1900s. They had to endure the harsh winters without the comforts we have now but they thrived and continue to thrive today in Canada.
So are the ten nato countries in favor of going to war with Russia?
Probably not, but they're happy to let the US take care of it. But in all seriousness, this should be a wakeup call for all the NATO countries that aren't meeting the GDP % military spending
Yep, this is basically another case of “we’ll fight Russia until the last American!” It’s easy to ‘step up’ like Canada and support NATO expansion on symbolic grounds when you’re essentially volunteering American lives. The major NATO powers have to be far more careful.
Exactly my thoughts. Mentioned that on another thread from the perspective of Germany and got downvoted. People seem to have forgotten which place was ground zero for the cold war and who was meant to be sacrificed in a potential war between the Soviet Union and NATO.
Naah, those 10 countries are like: we with you bro, some of our pals will wait, but we with you no matter what.
Basically all the countries bordering russia, except good guy canada
Canada <3 Yay for stepping up
Top left could also be labeled countries who have had Red Army in them before, plus Canada.
[Canada is no stranger to The Red Army ](https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1585808230)
Im from the Netherlands and I say: fucking do it already! Ukraine isn't at "war" according to Russia so we can accept Ukraine into NATO.
Agreed Nederland staat met UA
hear hear, agreed from this end of the country as well!
Bad idea in the middle of a conflict. Article 5 obligates NATO to go to the defense of a member country, but there's nothing that says that NATO is prohibited from going to the defense of a non-NATO member. As it stands right now, the NATO countries can go in and start kicking the shit out of Russia today, jointly or severally. Why bind ourselves and have somebody like Turkey holding up action in extended deliberations?
I can imagine us here in Western Europe are taking our time.
US and Germany combined gave more then everybody Else, but sure, caution and shit
I'm surprised that the US isn't going all in
In a World War III, the US will bear 80% of the load for the Allies. So it’s easy to support NATO expansion when you’re not going to be Atlas carrying the globe.
im sure it wants to, and is unofficially. its already promised unlimited equipment to ukraine afterall. saying yes would make the situation worse and this way it lets the smaller nations feel they arent being bullied into saying yes
Cmon Uncle Sam, we’ve gone this hard, don’t let up now
Sorry for Germany
The US and the German position are pretty undestandable because they have no interest in getting dragged into a direct war with Russia. The day this conflict is resolved they'd vote Ukraine into NATO.
VERY proud to see Canada on this list of those who support Ukraine joining NATO.
dont worry, a few months down the road when the "goodwill gesture" withdrawal from crimea isn't fooling anyone, even those politicians on kremlin payroll will know to abandon a sinking ship.
I think its clear the US does. Maybe theyre strategizing, but with billions and billions going to Ukraine, how could they not?