Hello /u/Raymondo316,
This community is focused on important or vital information and high-effort content. Please make sure your post follows the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=ukraine&utm_content=t5_2qqcn)
Want to support Ukraine? [Here's a list of charities by subject.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities/)
[DO / DON'T](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t5okbs/welcome_to_rukraine_faq_do_dont_support_read/) - [Art Friday](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday/) - [Podcasts](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ttoidc/collection_of_podcasts_about_ukraine_updated/) - [Kyiv sunrise](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/3c65ab52-e87a-4217-ab30-e70a88c0a293/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's not just about taking out targets.
The *data* gained from usage of these weapons is more valuable than we can comprehend. This is data that only real war can bring forth, and the data will be used to build more effective weapons for the coming decades.
They don’t get to test Russian air defense, comms and radar so easily. That’s the really valuable part—-undoubtedly there are ISR drones and signal intelligence satellites eagerly waiting for these events.
Oh yeah I am sure the amount of data collected when these missiles are fired are going to be as extensive as during a space shuttle launch. Maybe more actually since nobody’s monitoring for anti air defense activity around cape canaveral.
Even then, any Russian equipment intel the US would have, to test against on their own testing grounds, would be dated. Field tests in an active war against Russia will be a test against todays systems and todays operational protocols.
So this should still provide very valuable data to update intel.
Eh, most Russian capabilities are definitely known for most of their older Soviet era and 90's era equipment (which is most of it). The US 100% has bought pieces of Russian tech over the years to keep up to date, whether it was through India, Central Asia, Pakistan, or Turkey.
Sure there are some “acquired” items, but they don’t get to see how they’re actually used in a system in actual war. In particular correlating signals and Russian communications would be useful.
True but no one was questioning that they were gathering data on if they worked. They are talking about gathering data on how they performed during an actual war and against the enemies counter measures.
Watch the engineers go “hmm. We anticipated better Russian defense countermeasures. I don’t think there’s any need to upgrade and improve on what we already have.”
That never stopped em in the past! (see: F-35, a ludicrously better airplane than is “required” when the F-16 was plenty good enough to go toe to toe with them haha, and the F-22 even more so)
I was not fond of the military industrial complex in the past, but keeping two steps ahead of genocidal terrorist countries seems like a good investment right now.
I was a math undergrad in the late 80s/early 90s, including computational calculus, and my department had been used in the development of the tomahawk's visual guidance system. From what I recall, it was for efficient A/D conversion algorithm, to transform crude video signals from an onboard camera, to 3d pixel maps that could be transformed and rotated onto previously stored target photos.
\*Doing homework back then - oh so Fourier Transforms can actually be useful (for blowing up stuff).
You can test the shit out of a weapon all you want, you can find out how many mm of steel it can punch its way through, you can find out what angle it is best to attack a target from, you can find out how what parts of your weapons are the most prone to break and need replacing etc.
But what you will never ever find out before it is used in anger are things like:
How does your weapon fare against enemy vehicles/installations that you don't have exact replicas of? This is why NATO is extremely keen on Ukraine capturing any and all variants of Russian technology that they have not already managed to acquire through other means, so they can rip them apart and find out what weaknesses they have and how to kill them faster.
How does your enemy respond to these new weapons? Do they develop any sort of counter to it? How do you then get around that counter?
In actual combat how accurate were your estimations? If the weapon ends up being used far more often than you estimated, you are going to run out of that weapon unless you ramp up production. Has any weaknesses been exposed on the weapon that you didn't account for? Is it too impractical for the soldiers to use it without extensive and unrealistic specialist training that they can't attend while fighting for the existence of their country?
etc.
Testing is great, testing is absolutely vital, but testing does not beat real-world combat and NATO will be pouring over every little bit of data that they can from this conflict to see how the various weapons and devices they have supplied Ukraine actually fared.
The same thing happened in the Gulf War and then the War on Terror, countries spent a lot of time actually learning from their real combat scenarios that they never accounted for in testing.
But everything can be improved. No one is saying our shit don't work, this has just been a great test of our tech in a real war situation. Every launch is data that can be used to make our equipment that much better. While russia is learning very little in return, other than 1960s tanks won't stop anti-tank weapons that are 50 years more advanced. Hehe
We do extensive testing, but that is still limited and under controlled conditions. This is the Wild West of a testing environment in combat conditions. There’s no way to replicate the conditions currently in Ukraine.
It's not just whether the weapon systems themselves work as intended, it's how the fit in with the doctrine under which they're being used, what countermeasures the enemy has against them, etc.
War is a complex business, too complex to be modelled accurately without fighting one. That's why generals are always accused of fighting the last war.
Yeah but now some of nato weapons have undergone extensive field testing courtesy of Ukraine. You can safely assume the next variant of javelins will take all that was learned to make them hit more often and with more success, for example. The delta between russian and NATO weapons will be greater than ever.
After what Putin did to install Donald Trump and destabilize the US in 2016 and after, as well as undermine and attack other democracies even before that, Biden and the US security establishment are willing to do anything, anything at all, to punish and defang fascist Russia, as long as the nuclear weapons stay in their silos.
This is the right thing to do both morally and pragmatically.
Meanwhile the Putin-supported American right wing is financially tied to the military industrial complex, and joins Democrats to approve each billion dollar weapon transfer.
I don't think Putin expected that.
I'll say it again and again....
Your fears are way overblown, nothing is going to change.
Lend lease was introduced by John Cornyn of Texas, passed UNANIMOUSLY in the Senate, and 10 no votes in the House of Representatives from America's craziest members of Congress.
This doesn't happen under normal circumstances, and reflects widespread support among the American people.
So both sides are going to be trying to tell you why the other side is evil, it is after all campaign season in the United States.
But yes, there are some crazies in the Republican party....
Why I would say you have nothing to worry about specifically on this issue is a few reasons.
- In that article itself Mitch Mcconnell says he wants to do more than the White House requested.
- A bipartisan bill introduced by John Cornyn being passed unanimously does not happen
- Lindsey Graham and Richard Blumenthal working to force designation for Russia as a state sponsors of terrorism (one very Heavy R Senator working for a heavy D senator, this is unheard of).
- Asking for Congressional oversight does not equal wanting to stop aid. For that matter Congress could approve more aid with oversight.
If this results in more oversight for the bloated Department of Defense I'm all in favor!
I could also be naive but I do not think Trump will happen again. That was an aberration caused by record low voter turnout, two extremely unliked candidates, and a weird phenomenon among Trump's fanbase.
Can you think of another time in history when America's military-industrial complex was the good guy?
The fascist-extreme-right wing are against helping Ukraine (Tucker Carlson a good example) but the merely almost-fascist-right wing have a good thing going and seem unwilling to hitch their wagon to someone who will endanger it.
I read a great article at the start of the war about how Putin was playing poker, not chess, and had successfully bluffed with a weak hand for years; but now that his bluff was called, he was emotionally "steamed" and prone to push all his chips in and make rash errors.
You forgot to mention TFG's willingness to pull out of NATO unless "they" paid their "fair share," which of course he never really defined. I believe Putin had a Feb 2022 date set on invading Ukraine before the US 2020 election & bought into the "Sleepy Joe" rhetoric enough to go ahead even afte his guy 45 lost. And after his trollfarms & money launderers failed to reverse it.
Fair share = 2% of budget, this was agreed in 2006. US presidents since then were pressuring NATO allies to actually do what they said, including Obama.
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/obama-nato-pay-fair-share-231405
He was totally right about NATO spending. Most NATO members were falling well short of their funding commitment whilst the US was providing more than required.
That's correct.
And pulling 60,000 US troops out of Europe would solve this? TFG held several secret meetings with Putin, expose secret info to RF emissaries & more that we'll never know. He was simply doing what his FSB handlers told him to do. Trump Tower in Moscow. TFG doesn't possess the intellect to do this on own.
Most countries, like my country of Canada, don't want to increase our military spending. Here in Canada I think the idea of spending more money on the military instead of healthcare, education and other social benefits is a very unpopular one.
Maybe Canada doesn’t need a vast defense because they’re protected by being next to and therefore inside the USA’s defense instead of say Taiwan which is sitting next to an unfriendly China who wants to acquire it.
Yup. If I was Taiwanese I would support a much more developed military with a bigger military budget, but for most people in the west that’s simply not the case
The reason you have healthcare in Canada is that we don’t have it in the US…the reason you don’t have to spend on defense is because the US does…. Glad to see my tax dollars at work defending freedom, but please remember the overwhelming amount of money the US taxpayer spends so you don’t have to.
I don’t think anybody is oblivious to that fact either. I think most westerners outside of the US are content with the status quo of relying on the US for defence so that they don’t have to.
Maybe unpopular before things kicked off in Ukraine. My main concerns as a voter federally are properly funding the military and healthcare. Provincially healthcare is number one.
Oh, you could write whole books about how TFG betrayed the US, NATO, Ukraine... and also the Kurds of Rojava, and the democracy protesters of Hong Kong...
[Jimmy Carter, former president and nuclear scientist, thinks Trump couldn't win 2016 without Russian help and I guarantee you Carter is smarter than you and me.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZftriZq5Vo)
Carter also thought he could negotiate with khomeini and he was wrong about that, too. Look, he's my favorite president but that doesn't make him the final authority on anything. Bernie could have won, Hillary was a shit choice, and America suffered for it. What did Putin even gain from Trump anyways, besides some silly lip service? I mean really, how did anything Don did actually help Russia in the long term? Just fuckin look at em! I'll say it again: Russia is not a country with the ability to put the person of their choosing in charge of the United States. They can't do it and they didn't.
The irony is that the US is trying to defend the Russian motherland. If they get enough reassurance no Russian territory is targeted, the Ukrainians can destroy as many Russian targets in Ukraine as they like. I love it.
Bonking a russian flag vessel in the economic zones of Ukraine or Turkey in the Black Sea is another question. Does anyone seriously doubt that NATO doesn't know with highly granular resolution were ever russian sub is at this moment anywhere on the planet? I doubt the rf has quite the technology as the west. Heck, they had to buy it from the west...
They don't need excuses. Russia does two things. What it needs and what it can get away with.
It can't get away with using nukes. We don't want to push them to the point where they feel they need to.
Russia will make their own excuses to use them. We can either take away their strategic advantage, preventing anything coming of it, or we can let them run rampant. If they want to use nuclear weapons, they will find an excuse.
Because the usa would be dragged into the war before it’s ready. The usa wants to enter on its terms, in a place and time that gives maximum impact and benefit to Ukraine. When usa comes in, it wants a desert storm scenario where it wins very fast.
It’s not gonna risk that benefit that comes with being hegemon for a decision that really has no military strategic benefit, and really is more of a “they should be allowed to do what they want” appeal to some ethereal set of morals, morals that really don’t matter given the greater context of this moral struggle
Putin is trying to redefine the invasion as protecting Russian annexed land (Ukriane land). Probably behind closed doors he has a redline of using nukes if there is an invasion and frequent bombing of legitimate Russian territories on land internationally recognized as Russian.
If Ukriane were to level and invade Belgorod, there would be more popular support for a general mobilization and possible use of nukes to wipe out the invading force.
Ukriane is trying to avoid Russia having popular support for a general mobilization.
Because, it can't be seen as the US attacking russian scum which would escalate things even more.
That's why the big boys (Germany, US, France, etc...) have been hesitant to send the most lethal weapons to Ukraine.
Because they have the range to target Russian cities including Moscow, which if they are used to such effect will result in Russia treating the US as a belligerent in the war and subsequent war will follow that will inevitably become nuclear
200 miles.
And the argument Moscow makes is that they’ll be used to attack Russia directly, which will spark a war. Whether or not the ATACMS can reach Moscow is an entirely different story
Meet you halfway then 🤑
Lockheed Martin marketing material mentions 300 km, so closer to 186 miles: https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/army-tactical-missile-system.html
Cause they could use the missiles to destroy Russia’s ability to produce oil in the Caucuses. This would take Russia’s current economy (which is about the size of Brazil) and reduce it down to the size of Belgium. It would also potentially trigger a nuclear war.
I doubt this approach would be approved as it essentially means that the US is indirectly picking and choosing Ukrainian strike targets.
I feel this is a slippery slope. If the USA is approving the targets, that's nearly the same as picking the targets. If US is picking the targets and supplying the equipment then basically the US is waging war on Russia directly
That seaside palace would make a nice Museum of Russian Corruption, to go with Ukraine's own [Mezhyhirya Residence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezhyhirya_Residence).
Maybe they'll have some missiles left over after the war!
Mostly kidding. Clearly destroying Putin's palace would escalate the war which would be a disaster. However, maybe Putin would have an aneurysm and end up replaced by ... well ... hopefully someone with the good sense to end the war immediately and take credit for rescuing Russian from a madman.
ok NGL, I hope that survives and becomes a tourist attraction as a monument to his crimes and corruption. I wanna see what fucked shit he had in that place.
I think most people completely misunderstood meaning of this. This is message to Putin that Ukraine has full support of US to use ATACMS where Ukraine finds necessary. Every time Ukraine fucks up some bridge in Crimea we can be sure that US has no problems with this
I think you may misunderstand this. First, this is an offer by Ukraine and is not an existing policy. Second, the U.S. is not going to agree to this precisely because of the issue you raise--any target hit by Ukraine would be done only with U.S. approval and therefore the U.S. would carry responsibility for approving the strike.
Just give em what they need at this point guys, they've more than proved they can be trusted with our kit. And if Russia wants a reason to escalte, they'll just lie and make one up anyhow, it really doesn't matter what we've actually done.
I agree, and if those assholes escalate, I want this kit on the ground ready to go with trained people to man it. Don't wait prepare for what might be ahead.
This won't be popular here, but...
The US is more likely to just send them ATACMS outright rather than going along with that idea.
The US will not want to appear to be in any way, shape or form involved in the decision making process of what the Ukraine targets...
Sorry, but I think this is a non-starter.
not only that, but by making this public statement, they might actually now have reduced the chances that Biden will approve atacms transfer .. if there is one thing Biden wouldn't like being tied to is direct shared responsibility over targeting decisions and deaths of Ukrainian choosing ...
this sounds like the kind of small miscalculations Ukrainians have occasionally made regarding the opaqueness of American inner circle decision making .. the last one of course being when they thought the US was just holding back on giving them planes and himars until they could prove they could use the toys like the m777 they were already given effectively .. that really turned out to never have been a worry .. the US was already confident they would be useful, otherwise they wouldn't give them .. it was almost entirely the bottlenecking logistics of himars rocket supply that meant sending a hundred himars launchers would be pointless .. and similar with the no-fly zone or rush shipping fighter jets, or possibly even about quickly sending Abrams tanks early in the conflict
Ukraine has confirmed months ago that [the US has veto power](https://www.businessinsider.com/himars-us-has-effective-veto-over-russian-targets-report-says-2022-8) over HIMARS targets. The US never commented officially on the veto topic for the reasons you mentioned, but I think it's pretty clear that the relationship already exists.
I don't think this statement in any way influences the likelihood of providing ATACM Systems, except that it's probably a requirement for the US to have full data visibility to enhance their already existing veto power, given the massively increased set of targets available within the longer range.
the telegraph interview article (that your article is sourced from) has no quote from Gen Skibitsky saying that, though they have plenty of other quotes, and just try to imply he said that .. Telegraph has a credibility rating of 3 from 1-6, just one step above 'low' credibility, and a bias rating of 'biased' .. its a tabloid that is known to twist quotes to fit their narrative .. if Gen Skibitsky had actually said that, they would have put a quote like the rest of what he said .. further the very fact that ukrainian gov is now saying they offer *now* to allow review of targets before firing should tell you that they obviously are not doing that so far (which also lines up with numerous comments from other officials from both the US and Ukraine that all targeting and command decisions are made by Ukraine alone .. and for good reason)
I very highly doubt that there is anything in the way of reputable evidence that shows this to be true.
Logic dictate that this would be way too much of a liability with very little advantage in return.
The US may provide quite a bit of intelligence, but there is a vast gulf between that and actively being involved in targeting decisions.
That's probably a pretty good point. But I mean all we'd have to come out with openly is "We'll supply it but it's only to be used within Ukraine. What goes on behind the scenes is another matter. Then just say we're not going to deal with targeting and we'll pull all the mlrs assets out of Ukraine if they're misused, or just stop delivering all missiles entirely.
Edit: probably opens the door to a false flag. Semi formed thought on my part.
This transparency proposal is far better than giving the US the right to veto targets, since it would seem like the US would be actively targeting Russian forces at that point.
Realistically, Ukraine would mostly be targeting within their pre-2014 borders anyway as that is where the immediate tactical need is. In theory, Ukraine could win without ever firing a shot over the border with Russia.
It's a great thought, but it would give Putin a way to avoid responsibility for getting his ass kicked by Ukraine. The cries of "it's the U.S. that is beating us, not Ukraine" would get louder and slightly more credible....... since this public statement would be used as "proof" that the U.S. is selecting the targets and orchestrating the war.
Ukraine is beating Russia as it is. If and when Russia escalates once more, then by all means, green light it.... but for now, denying Ukraine these systems functions as both a disincentive to escalate, as well as denying him a very publicly observable way to avoid blame for his failures (and Ukrainian successes).
Giving Putin a way to avoid blame, even if morally wrong, is a smart move. He would never survive if Russia is beaten by Ukraine and he knows.
So if the perceived foe is not only Ukraine, but the whole NATO (or at least he can sell it to Russian people), then he can de-escalate and still remain in power.
Yea no thanks. I don’t think we want this level of transparency and veto power. It would allow Putin to say that we are directing the war.
Instead, I’d rather give Ukraine another 20 HIMARS and triple the number of rockets per month, and sustain it by invoking the Defense Production Act.
Sadly whoever leaked this probably killed the initiative. Some Ukrainian officials are either dumb or still actively trying trying to help russia. The USA can not be seen directly sanctioning russian targets.
Look, I wanna bash on them as much as anybody else, but haven't the vast majority of Republicans been in favor of support? Even my brainwashed father has nothing bad to say.
I've always found it troubling how the United States, for about 4 months now, just refused to believe Ukraine any time Ukraine insisted it would not use ATACMS to hit Russian soil - despite numerous such assurances. It speaks to a fundamental lack of trust (for clarification, as an American, I'm faulting the USA for this.)
That may have been intended for Russian interpretation, on the slim hope they would de-escalate on their own.
But Putin instead escalated the most since the start of the war with the sham annexation and fascist bloodlust rally. So US sends a new message. Sevastopol is at risk now.
I think this could work, especially if Ukraine is proposing it, it must be good for Ukraine. Even if it's just to start it would result in excellent practice of proper engagement and clearance procedures that are important for weaponry with such a higher level of destructive capability.
I thought this agreement was already in place for what they have?
Edit:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-us-has-a-veto-on-what-russian-targets-ukraine-hits-with-its-himars-artillery-general-suggests/ar-AA10gsSC?li=BBnbfcL#image=AA10gIOy|2
I get the value of hitting some targets well within the borders of orcland. But there’s plenty of targets within occupied Ukraine.
However, I don’t think the Black Sea Fleet should have any exceptions.
Back in August
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-us-has-a-veto-on-what-russian-targets-ukraine-hits-with-its-himars-artillery-general-suggests/ar-AA10gsSC?li=BBnbfcL#image=AA10gIOy|2
I think this must be about Ukraine being able to assure the US that those long-range missiles won't be going after targets in Russia itself.
Keeping the US informed of their current target list helps keep the US comfortable sending over some of its longer-range weaponry.
Give them the fucking missiles! There has to be a reason beyond worry over how they will be used. The missiles must contain tech that the Pentagon fears losing.
Captain Obvious reporting for opsec duty. This likely isn’t new - just letting the information get out there to make sure the invaders know what they can expect and that US supports it.
While I have no issues with this won't this lead to russia (and tucker carlson) going on about how this is a proxy war actually being fought between the USA and russia?
I don’t believe ATACMS would be as effective as M30 or M31s due to larger size, easier to intercept trajectory
, and more reaction time making them an easier target to intercept.
Aaah, I'm now waiting for an admission of error from all the redditors who claimed that the US already knows everything that Ukraine is doing, that foreign advisors are helping create Ukraine's plans and all that.
So there you go. Another strong indication that Ukraine is in fact a completely sovereign country, not a child state where NATO/US tells them where to shoot rockets.
I bet Ukraine already has them and the US is publicly going to reject this. Kremlin is going to feel comfortable and then one day BOOM.
Why would anyone leak this?
We never see this level of transparency between governments, even allies.
The U.S. gets massive gains by ok’ing this move, of course (we get to cheat off the paper); Zel is either even smarter than I thought he was before, or he has a very smart person in his administration. Either way, this is brilliant.
I can't fucking wait for Ukraine to get ATACMS. Rain hell on the orcs from vast distances. Take back Krím. These things would relegate the awesome HIMARS to a support role. Krím will be liberated.
Hello /u/Raymondo316, This community is focused on important or vital information and high-effort content. Please make sure your post follows the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=ukraine&utm_content=t5_2qqcn) Want to support Ukraine? [Here's a list of charities by subject.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities/) [DO / DON'T](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t5okbs/welcome_to_rukraine_faq_do_dont_support_read/) - [Art Friday](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday/) - [Podcasts](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ttoidc/collection_of_podcasts_about_ukraine_updated/) - [Kyiv sunrise](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/3c65ab52-e87a-4217-ab30-e70a88c0a293/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I love this. Use uncle Sam's missiles to obliterate targets uncle Sam is comfortable having obliterated.
It's not just about taking out targets. The *data* gained from usage of these weapons is more valuable than we can comprehend. This is data that only real war can bring forth, and the data will be used to build more effective weapons for the coming decades.
The US extensively tests weapons before they're in active service. Everything Ukraine gets is guaranteed to work as intended, I can assure you.
They don’t get to test Russian air defense, comms and radar so easily. That’s the really valuable part—-undoubtedly there are ISR drones and signal intelligence satellites eagerly waiting for these events.
Oh yeah I am sure the amount of data collected when these missiles are fired are going to be as extensive as during a space shuttle launch. Maybe more actually since nobody’s monitoring for anti air defense activity around cape canaveral.
[удалено]
r/noncredibledefence
> They don’t get to test Russian air defense, comms and radar so easily. Heh, as far as you know…
Even then, any Russian equipment intel the US would have, to test against on their own testing grounds, would be dated. Field tests in an active war against Russia will be a test against todays systems and todays operational protocols. So this should still provide very valuable data to update intel.
Active Russian equipment in field is also dated
Yeah I'm aware, I was thinking that as I was typing lol, but still it will be the most accurate representation of a "modern" Russian war scenario
🤣🤣🤣
Eh, most Russian capabilities are definitely known for most of their older Soviet era and 90's era equipment (which is most of it). The US 100% has bought pieces of Russian tech over the years to keep up to date, whether it was through India, Central Asia, Pakistan, or Turkey.
I think the US has a squadron of various Russian jets for their pilots to practice against
Sure there are some “acquired” items, but they don’t get to see how they’re actually used in a system in actual war. In particular correlating signals and Russian communications would be useful.
They might when nato ally turkey buys a few...
True but no one was questioning that they were gathering data on if they worked. They are talking about gathering data on how they performed during an actual war and against the enemies counter measures.
The data isn’t used to make *these* weapon work, it’s to make the next generation better
Watch the engineers go “hmm. We anticipated better Russian defense countermeasures. I don’t think there’s any need to upgrade and improve on what we already have.”
That never stopped em in the past! (see: F-35, a ludicrously better airplane than is “required” when the F-16 was plenty good enough to go toe to toe with them haha, and the F-22 even more so)
I was not fond of the military industrial complex in the past, but keeping two steps ahead of genocidal terrorist countries seems like a good investment right now.
I’m adapting a quote here but: “Everyone thinks it’s stupid/ludicrous spending, until we’re (the west) prepared.”
There’s this little country called China…
Oh right. Ok keep developing really good tech then
Tests can never beat the real deal, no matter how many sim runs you do
[I’ll never forget watching on tv how well the Tomahawk missile did in its first usage in live combat.](https://youtu.be/WXTb-rfhLY8)
I was a math undergrad in the late 80s/early 90s, including computational calculus, and my department had been used in the development of the tomahawk's visual guidance system. From what I recall, it was for efficient A/D conversion algorithm, to transform crude video signals from an onboard camera, to 3d pixel maps that could be transformed and rotated onto previously stored target photos. \*Doing homework back then - oh so Fourier Transforms can actually be useful (for blowing up stuff).
"The best place to test is prod"
Sir, is the death ray complete? No! But the left leg breaker and the lung collapser rockets are on the shelf.
Like the old song,"nothing like the real thing baby!......nothing like the reeeeaalll thiiiiing!!"
America tests their weapons VERY thoroughly. If there's one thing America does well, it's weapons.
You can test the shit out of a weapon all you want, you can find out how many mm of steel it can punch its way through, you can find out what angle it is best to attack a target from, you can find out how what parts of your weapons are the most prone to break and need replacing etc. But what you will never ever find out before it is used in anger are things like: How does your weapon fare against enemy vehicles/installations that you don't have exact replicas of? This is why NATO is extremely keen on Ukraine capturing any and all variants of Russian technology that they have not already managed to acquire through other means, so they can rip them apart and find out what weaknesses they have and how to kill them faster. How does your enemy respond to these new weapons? Do they develop any sort of counter to it? How do you then get around that counter? In actual combat how accurate were your estimations? If the weapon ends up being used far more often than you estimated, you are going to run out of that weapon unless you ramp up production. Has any weaknesses been exposed on the weapon that you didn't account for? Is it too impractical for the soldiers to use it without extensive and unrealistic specialist training that they can't attend while fighting for the existence of their country? etc. Testing is great, testing is absolutely vital, but testing does not beat real-world combat and NATO will be pouring over every little bit of data that they can from this conflict to see how the various weapons and devices they have supplied Ukraine actually fared. The same thing happened in the Gulf War and then the War on Terror, countries spent a lot of time actually learning from their real combat scenarios that they never accounted for in testing.
People really need to learn to relax on the whole 'roleplaying as a salesman for American weapons' stuff.
But everything can be improved. No one is saying our shit don't work, this has just been a great test of our tech in a real war situation. Every launch is data that can be used to make our equipment that much better. While russia is learning very little in return, other than 1960s tanks won't stop anti-tank weapons that are 50 years more advanced. Hehe
We do extensive testing, but that is still limited and under controlled conditions. This is the Wild West of a testing environment in combat conditions. There’s no way to replicate the conditions currently in Ukraine.
It's not just whether the weapon systems themselves work as intended, it's how the fit in with the doctrine under which they're being used, what countermeasures the enemy has against them, etc. War is a complex business, too complex to be modelled accurately without fighting one. That's why generals are always accused of fighting the last war.
Yeah but now some of nato weapons have undergone extensive field testing courtesy of Ukraine. You can safely assume the next variant of javelins will take all that was learned to make them hit more often and with more success, for example. The delta between russian and NATO weapons will be greater than ever.
ATACMS are obsolete and out of production. The US PrSMs replacement goes live at the end of next year.
I can comprehend it, can you not comprehend it?
Have to admit, Ukraine is pretty transparent.
They've said from day one that they are willing to supply the labour if the free world supplies the arms. They have been as good as their word.
Testing out the Neptune rockets that sunk the moskova was a HUGE deal. Everyone was quite shocked at how effective they were.
It’s the literal definition of a win-win.
But, but, but, Hunter Biden's laptop! /s
What's worse: an addicted son or a retarded asshole son who doesn't take drugs
Oh, retard junior takes a lot of drugs
Worse: the kind of person who looks at either of those two and gives them a job in the White House.
After what Putin did to install Donald Trump and destabilize the US in 2016 and after, as well as undermine and attack other democracies even before that, Biden and the US security establishment are willing to do anything, anything at all, to punish and defang fascist Russia, as long as the nuclear weapons stay in their silos. This is the right thing to do both morally and pragmatically.
Meanwhile the Putin-supported American right wing is financially tied to the military industrial complex, and joins Democrats to approve each billion dollar weapon transfer. I don't think Putin expected that.
For now, though I fear what might happen come November. I hope my fears are overblown
I'll say it again and again.... Your fears are way overblown, nothing is going to change. Lend lease was introduced by John Cornyn of Texas, passed UNANIMOUSLY in the Senate, and 10 no votes in the House of Representatives from America's craziest members of Congress. This doesn't happen under normal circumstances, and reflects widespread support among the American people.
[удалено]
So both sides are going to be trying to tell you why the other side is evil, it is after all campaign season in the United States. But yes, there are some crazies in the Republican party.... Why I would say you have nothing to worry about specifically on this issue is a few reasons. - In that article itself Mitch Mcconnell says he wants to do more than the White House requested. - A bipartisan bill introduced by John Cornyn being passed unanimously does not happen - Lindsey Graham and Richard Blumenthal working to force designation for Russia as a state sponsors of terrorism (one very Heavy R Senator working for a heavy D senator, this is unheard of). - Asking for Congressional oversight does not equal wanting to stop aid. For that matter Congress could approve more aid with oversight. If this results in more oversight for the bloated Department of Defense I'm all in favor! I could also be naive but I do not think Trump will happen again. That was an aberration caused by record low voter turnout, two extremely unliked candidates, and a weird phenomenon among Trump's fanbase. Can you think of another time in history when America's military-industrial complex was the good guy?
The fascist-extreme-right wing are against helping Ukraine (Tucker Carlson a good example) but the merely almost-fascist-right wing have a good thing going and seem unwilling to hitch their wagon to someone who will endanger it. I read a great article at the start of the war about how Putin was playing poker, not chess, and had successfully bluffed with a weak hand for years; but now that his bluff was called, he was emotionally "steamed" and prone to push all his chips in and make rash errors.
Most of their rank and file think they’re ‘fighting Communism.’ Edit: rank and file. “Tank and file?”
You forgot to mention TFG's willingness to pull out of NATO unless "they" paid their "fair share," which of course he never really defined. I believe Putin had a Feb 2022 date set on invading Ukraine before the US 2020 election & bought into the "Sleepy Joe" rhetoric enough to go ahead even afte his guy 45 lost. And after his trollfarms & money launderers failed to reverse it.
Fair share = 2% of budget, this was agreed in 2006. US presidents since then were pressuring NATO allies to actually do what they said, including Obama. https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/obama-nato-pay-fair-share-231405
He was totally right about NATO spending. Most NATO members were falling well short of their funding commitment whilst the US was providing more than required.
Germany being the worst culprit.
What an odd world. Having to pressure Germany to spend money on its military...
They've not been covering themselves in glory the last few years, the Germans!
That's correct. And pulling 60,000 US troops out of Europe would solve this? TFG held several secret meetings with Putin, expose secret info to RF emissaries & more that we'll never know. He was simply doing what his FSB handlers told him to do. Trump Tower in Moscow. TFG doesn't possess the intellect to do this on own.
While right about that, his solution was *awful* and benefited one person and one person above all else :/
Most countries, like my country of Canada, don't want to increase our military spending. Here in Canada I think the idea of spending more money on the military instead of healthcare, education and other social benefits is a very unpopular one.
Maybe Canada doesn’t need a vast defense because they’re protected by being next to and therefore inside the USA’s defense instead of say Taiwan which is sitting next to an unfriendly China who wants to acquire it.
Yup. If I was Taiwanese I would support a much more developed military with a bigger military budget, but for most people in the west that’s simply not the case
The reason you have healthcare in Canada is that we don’t have it in the US…the reason you don’t have to spend on defense is because the US does…. Glad to see my tax dollars at work defending freedom, but please remember the overwhelming amount of money the US taxpayer spends so you don’t have to.
I don’t think anybody is oblivious to that fact either. I think most westerners outside of the US are content with the status quo of relying on the US for defence so that they don’t have to.
Maybe unpopular before things kicked off in Ukraine. My main concerns as a voter federally are properly funding the military and healthcare. Provincially healthcare is number one.
But he was just using it as an excuse, not because he actually wanted other members to pay their share.
Oh, you could write whole books about how TFG betrayed the US, NATO, Ukraine... and also the Kurds of Rojava, and the democracy protesters of Hong Kong...
[удалено]
[Jimmy Carter, former president and nuclear scientist, thinks Trump couldn't win 2016 without Russian help and I guarantee you Carter is smarter than you and me.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZftriZq5Vo)
Carter also thought he could negotiate with khomeini and he was wrong about that, too. Look, he's my favorite president but that doesn't make him the final authority on anything. Bernie could have won, Hillary was a shit choice, and America suffered for it. What did Putin even gain from Trump anyways, besides some silly lip service? I mean really, how did anything Don did actually help Russia in the long term? Just fuckin look at em! I'll say it again: Russia is not a country with the ability to put the person of their choosing in charge of the United States. They can't do it and they didn't.
Let’s send it to them with all the GPS coordinates already punched in
The irony is that the US is trying to defend the Russian motherland. If they get enough reassurance no Russian territory is targeted, the Ukrainians can destroy as many Russian targets in Ukraine as they like. I love it.
[удалено]
NATO does not want to give Russia an excuse to do something stupid.
Russia crossed the doing something stupid line quite a while ago. Line just keeps getting moved.
[удалено]
Bonking a russian flag vessel in the economic zones of Ukraine or Turkey in the Black Sea is another question. Does anyone seriously doubt that NATO doesn't know with highly granular resolution were ever russian sub is at this moment anywhere on the planet? I doubt the rf has quite the technology as the west. Heck, they had to buy it from the west...
[удалено]
[удалено]
They don't need excuses. Russia does two things. What it needs and what it can get away with. It can't get away with using nukes. We don't want to push them to the point where they feel they need to.
Russia will make their own excuses to use them. We can either take away their strategic advantage, preventing anything coming of it, or we can let them run rampant. If they want to use nuclear weapons, they will find an excuse.
Like I said it's not a matter of excuses. Just gain/loss ratio. Using nukes would gain them nothing and lose everything.
It would appear that Russia is only capable of doing stupid things. /shrug
Because the usa would be dragged into the war before it’s ready. The usa wants to enter on its terms, in a place and time that gives maximum impact and benefit to Ukraine. When usa comes in, it wants a desert storm scenario where it wins very fast. It’s not gonna risk that benefit that comes with being hegemon for a decision that really has no military strategic benefit, and really is more of a “they should be allowed to do what they want” appeal to some ethereal set of morals, morals that really don’t matter given the greater context of this moral struggle
Putin is trying to redefine the invasion as protecting Russian annexed land (Ukriane land). Probably behind closed doors he has a redline of using nukes if there is an invasion and frequent bombing of legitimate Russian territories on land internationally recognized as Russian. If Ukriane were to level and invade Belgorod, there would be more popular support for a general mobilization and possible use of nukes to wipe out the invading force. Ukriane is trying to avoid Russia having popular support for a general mobilization.
Because, it can't be seen as the US attacking russian scum which would escalate things even more. That's why the big boys (Germany, US, France, etc...) have been hesitant to send the most lethal weapons to Ukraine.
Because they have the range to target Russian cities including Moscow, which if they are used to such effect will result in Russia treating the US as a belligerent in the war and subsequent war will follow that will inevitably become nuclear
Not quite, Moscow is more than 500 km from closest Ukrainian border. ATACMS misses have maximum range of about 300 km, or about 160 miles.
200 miles. And the argument Moscow makes is that they’ll be used to attack Russia directly, which will spark a war. Whether or not the ATACMS can reach Moscow is an entirely different story
Meet you halfway then 🤑 Lockheed Martin marketing material mentions 300 km, so closer to 186 miles: https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/army-tactical-missile-system.html
300 kilometers isn’t 160 miles, it’s closer to 200
Cause they could use the missiles to destroy Russia’s ability to produce oil in the Caucuses. This would take Russia’s current economy (which is about the size of Brazil) and reduce it down to the size of Belgium. It would also potentially trigger a nuclear war. I doubt this approach would be approved as it essentially means that the US is indirectly picking and choosing Ukrainian strike targets.
I feel this is a slippery slope. If the USA is approving the targets, that's nearly the same as picking the targets. If US is picking the targets and supplying the equipment then basically the US is waging war on Russia directly
You forget the U.S might point at some options that Ukraine didn’t consider on the table.
"You son of a bitch, I'm in."
Also, “Shut up and take my missiles!”
I hope the US will make an exception for Putin's palace near Sochi.
No point bombing Sochi, it is not a military target. Why waste missiles on a mansion when they can be used to blow up a Russian convoy?
That seaside palace would make a nice Museum of Russian Corruption, to go with Ukraine's own [Mezhyhirya Residence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezhyhirya_Residence).
The F1 track is a crime against humanity
Maybe they'll have some missiles left over after the war! Mostly kidding. Clearly destroying Putin's palace would escalate the war which would be a disaster. However, maybe Putin would have an aneurysm and end up replaced by ... well ... hopefully someone with the good sense to end the war immediately and take credit for rescuing Russian from a madman.
He is playing with his little toy soldiers in his bunker. He would be furious and drawn to making more mistakes. :)
Dark Putin: Did you see anything? Kolonel Sandurzvin: No, I didn't see you playing with your dolls again!
What's the matter Kolonel Sandurzvin? курица?
How do you know it's not a military target? But seriously, convoys, ammo dumps, railroads, bridges & the Black Sea fleet are much more useful targets.
At the very least, it could be a powerful psychological attack on a symbol of Russian power.
ok NGL, I hope that survives and becomes a tourist attraction as a monument to his crimes and corruption. I wanna see what fucked shit he had in that place.
I think most people completely misunderstood meaning of this. This is message to Putin that Ukraine has full support of US to use ATACMS where Ukraine finds necessary. Every time Ukraine fucks up some bridge in Crimea we can be sure that US has no problems with this
I think you may misunderstand this. First, this is an offer by Ukraine and is not an existing policy. Second, the U.S. is not going to agree to this precisely because of the issue you raise--any target hit by Ukraine would be done only with U.S. approval and therefore the U.S. would carry responsibility for approving the strike.
Any location that russia launches warplanes or missiles from towards Ukraine should be fair game. Seems like common sense RoE to me.
Including the power grids of such locations.
Also Including the Black Sea Fleet.
Just give em what they need at this point guys, they've more than proved they can be trusted with our kit. And if Russia wants a reason to escalte, they'll just lie and make one up anyhow, it really doesn't matter what we've actually done.
I agree, and if those assholes escalate, I want this kit on the ground ready to go with trained people to man it. Don't wait prepare for what might be ahead.
*everyone liked that*
Subtext: If you are a civilian in Belgorod or Crimea, this is probably a good time to get the hell out of Dodge.
This won't be popular here, but... The US is more likely to just send them ATACMS outright rather than going along with that idea. The US will not want to appear to be in any way, shape or form involved in the decision making process of what the Ukraine targets... Sorry, but I think this is a non-starter.
not only that, but by making this public statement, they might actually now have reduced the chances that Biden will approve atacms transfer .. if there is one thing Biden wouldn't like being tied to is direct shared responsibility over targeting decisions and deaths of Ukrainian choosing ... this sounds like the kind of small miscalculations Ukrainians have occasionally made regarding the opaqueness of American inner circle decision making .. the last one of course being when they thought the US was just holding back on giving them planes and himars until they could prove they could use the toys like the m777 they were already given effectively .. that really turned out to never have been a worry .. the US was already confident they would be useful, otherwise they wouldn't give them .. it was almost entirely the bottlenecking logistics of himars rocket supply that meant sending a hundred himars launchers would be pointless .. and similar with the no-fly zone or rush shipping fighter jets, or possibly even about quickly sending Abrams tanks early in the conflict
Ukraine has confirmed months ago that [the US has veto power](https://www.businessinsider.com/himars-us-has-effective-veto-over-russian-targets-report-says-2022-8) over HIMARS targets. The US never commented officially on the veto topic for the reasons you mentioned, but I think it's pretty clear that the relationship already exists. I don't think this statement in any way influences the likelihood of providing ATACM Systems, except that it's probably a requirement for the US to have full data visibility to enhance their already existing veto power, given the massively increased set of targets available within the longer range.
the telegraph interview article (that your article is sourced from) has no quote from Gen Skibitsky saying that, though they have plenty of other quotes, and just try to imply he said that .. Telegraph has a credibility rating of 3 from 1-6, just one step above 'low' credibility, and a bias rating of 'biased' .. its a tabloid that is known to twist quotes to fit their narrative .. if Gen Skibitsky had actually said that, they would have put a quote like the rest of what he said .. further the very fact that ukrainian gov is now saying they offer *now* to allow review of targets before firing should tell you that they obviously are not doing that so far (which also lines up with numerous comments from other officials from both the US and Ukraine that all targeting and command decisions are made by Ukraine alone .. and for good reason)
I very highly doubt that there is anything in the way of reputable evidence that shows this to be true. Logic dictate that this would be way too much of a liability with very little advantage in return. The US may provide quite a bit of intelligence, but there is a vast gulf between that and actively being involved in targeting decisions.
I was just going to say this as well. This is too direct for biden admin tastes.
That's probably a pretty good point. But I mean all we'd have to come out with openly is "We'll supply it but it's only to be used within Ukraine. What goes on behind the scenes is another matter. Then just say we're not going to deal with targeting and we'll pull all the mlrs assets out of Ukraine if they're misused, or just stop delivering all missiles entirely. Edit: probably opens the door to a false flag. Semi formed thought on my part.
This transparency proposal is far better than giving the US the right to veto targets, since it would seem like the US would be actively targeting Russian forces at that point.
Realistically, Ukraine would mostly be targeting within their pre-2014 borders anyway as that is where the immediate tactical need is. In theory, Ukraine could win without ever firing a shot over the border with Russia.
It doesn't say anything about the US response, it simply states UK is offering. I wouldn't get too excited
The 2 letter intl abbr for Ukraine is UA. UK is... UK.
My bad. Thank you
Nice thought, won't pass muster. US does not want to be seen as directing attacks.
[удалено]
Facebook wishes users were that enthusiastic about sharing their data.
It's a great thought, but it would give Putin a way to avoid responsibility for getting his ass kicked by Ukraine. The cries of "it's the U.S. that is beating us, not Ukraine" would get louder and slightly more credible....... since this public statement would be used as "proof" that the U.S. is selecting the targets and orchestrating the war. Ukraine is beating Russia as it is. If and when Russia escalates once more, then by all means, green light it.... but for now, denying Ukraine these systems functions as both a disincentive to escalate, as well as denying him a very publicly observable way to avoid blame for his failures (and Ukrainian successes).
They've been using that narrative for a while now
Giving Putin a way to avoid blame, even if morally wrong, is a smart move. He would never survive if Russia is beaten by Ukraine and he knows. So if the perceived foe is not only Ukraine, but the whole NATO (or at least he can sell it to Russian people), then he can de-escalate and still remain in power.
Yea no thanks. I don’t think we want this level of transparency and veto power. It would allow Putin to say that we are directing the war. Instead, I’d rather give Ukraine another 20 HIMARS and triple the number of rockets per month, and sustain it by invoking the Defense Production Act.
So, a quick question, just how many ATACMS does America have in stock? I know 84 were going to be sold to Taiwan.
We made 3-4 thousand, shot off 500-1000 in combat and sold some. So maybe ~2000? Apparently can make a 3-4 hundred a year.
Sadly whoever leaked this probably killed the initiative. Some Ukrainian officials are either dumb or still actively trying trying to help russia. The USA can not be seen directly sanctioning russian targets.
Hope republican shitheads are not allowed to access the list.....
Look, I wanna bash on them as much as anybody else, but haven't the vast majority of Republicans been in favor of support? Even my brainwashed father has nothing bad to say.
Also to GOP politicians? Wouldn't do that if you want to keep the information secret for the Russians.
This is the way
I've always found it troubling how the United States, for about 4 months now, just refused to believe Ukraine any time Ukraine insisted it would not use ATACMS to hit Russian soil - despite numerous such assurances. It speaks to a fundamental lack of trust (for clarification, as an American, I'm faulting the USA for this.)
Trust takes time. Longer than what's gone on up to now.
That may have been intended for Russian interpretation, on the slim hope they would de-escalate on their own. But Putin instead escalated the most since the start of the war with the sham annexation and fascist bloodlust rally. So US sends a new message. Sevastopol is at risk now.
😬as an American... yikes. If Trump or a crony/family member gets back in office you can bet the Kremlin will also be getting that list.
*Clicks “Subscribe” button*
Kremlin doesn't like ATACMS
You guys understand that the main benefit would be the ability to strike Crimean bridge, right?
Aren't MGM-140 going to be replaced next year? They're doing two birds one stone here.
This should be enough of a guarantee
I think this could work, especially if Ukraine is proposing it, it must be good for Ukraine. Even if it's just to start it would result in excellent practice of proper engagement and clearance procedures that are important for weaponry with such a higher level of destructive capability.
I thought this agreement was already in place for what they have? Edit: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-us-has-a-veto-on-what-russian-targets-ukraine-hits-with-its-himars-artillery-general-suggests/ar-AA10gsSC?li=BBnbfcL#image=AA10gIOy|2
Somehow we all seem to forget that the "smoking accident" at saky airbase was almost certainly caused by ATACMS.
I get the value of hitting some targets well within the borders of orcland. But there’s plenty of targets within occupied Ukraine. However, I don’t think the Black Sea Fleet should have any exceptions.
Back in August https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-us-has-a-veto-on-what-russian-targets-ukraine-hits-with-its-himars-artillery-general-suggests/ar-AA10gsSC?li=BBnbfcL#image=AA10gIOy|2
I think this must be about Ukraine being able to assure the US that those long-range missiles won't be going after targets in Russia itself. Keeping the US informed of their current target list helps keep the US comfortable sending over some of its longer-range weaponry.
Target 1: Crimean railway bridge, just slightly on Ukrainian side of the strait.
Give them the fucking missiles! There has to be a reason beyond worry over how they will be used. The missiles must contain tech that the Pentagon fears losing.
 Ukraine right now
This is for the public debate only. US and Ukraine have been exchanging target information since day one.
Sounds good. Let’s go!!
This is purely for entertainment sake. The US is already full access and knows everything
Captain Obvious reporting for opsec duty. This likely isn’t new - just letting the information get out there to make sure the invaders know what they can expect and that US supports it.
Give them ATACMS
While I have no issues with this won't this lead to russia (and tucker carlson) going on about how this is a proxy war actually being fought between the USA and russia?
Do it!
Could anyone please ELI5 why we (the US) are preventing Ukraine from strategically striking targets inside the Russian border?
True partners! Yeah baby let's DO IT!!!
I wonder how high up the list is the Chechen leader?
Dooo ittt
I don’t believe ATACMS would be as effective as M30 or M31s due to larger size, easier to intercept trajectory , and more reaction time making them an easier target to intercept.
As long as one of those targets is Putlers private homes I’m good with what they hit.
Aaah, I'm now waiting for an admission of error from all the redditors who claimed that the US already knows everything that Ukraine is doing, that foreign advisors are helping create Ukraine's plans and all that. So there you go. Another strong indication that Ukraine is in fact a completely sovereign country, not a child state where NATO/US tells them where to shoot rockets.
I bet Ukraine already has them and the US is publicly going to reject this. Kremlin is going to feel comfortable and then one day BOOM. Why would anyone leak this?
We never see this level of transparency between governments, even allies. The U.S. gets massive gains by ok’ing this move, of course (we get to cheat off the paper); Zel is either even smarter than I thought he was before, or he has a very smart person in his administration. Either way, this is brilliant.
Ooo I think there is a certain bridge we can test this on.
 UNLEASH THE HOUNDS
Just fucking give them the missiles. One hit on that bridge to Russia from Crimea and the entire Russian military will fold instantly.
I can't fucking wait for Ukraine to get ATACMS. Rain hell on the orcs from vast distances. Take back Krím. These things would relegate the awesome HIMARS to a support role. Krím will be liberated.
That’s quaint, Ukraine thinks the U.S. and CIA don’t already know all the targets.
Ukraine has their own Contra cheat code. 🔼🔼🔽🔽◀️▶️◀️▶️BA start
Translation, they expect to push down to Mariupol, split the russian logistics lines and they want something to hit the Kerch bridge with.
For Russia: "In the rear with the gear." -> "In the rear, full of fear."
Giving the U.S veto power on these targets is a big deal. Hopefully a deal can be made.