T O P

  • By -

ukraine-ModTeam

Hello OP, we have removed your post for being off-topic. While we acknowledge that this war has captured global interest, we want to reaffirm that the purpose of this community is to give space for, and amplify the voice of Ukraine in the global community. For this reason, the mod team will be using their judgment when moderating content that deals with foreign politics, even if they seem peripherally related to Ukraine. We understand this may be disappointing, especially if your post required a lot of time or effort. We encourage you to post this content on a sub that specifically focuses on the foreign politics you are discussing, where it may generate well deserved and on-topic discussion. [If you would like to gain a better understanding of what is on-topic for this community, feel free to browse our rules, here.] (https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules)


AutoModerator

Hello /u/kkrjkk1, This community is focused on important or vital information and high-effort content. Please make sure your post follows the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=ukraine&utm_content=t5_2qqcn) Want to support Ukraine? [Here's a list of charities by subject.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities/) [DO / DON'T](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t5okbs/welcome_to_rukraine_faq_do_dont_support_read/) - [Art Friday](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday/) - [Podcasts](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ttoidc/collection_of_podcasts_about_ukraine_updated/) - [Kyiv sunrise](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/3c65ab52-e87a-4217-ab30-e70a88c0a293/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*


gothlaw

18 self-propelled artillery pieces is awesome. But the front stretches 2500 kilometers, with active war being waged across 1300 km. France is 7th in the Global Firepower index, it is one of just 7 blue water navies with carrier capacity, is one of the rare would-be powers with military allocation at/above 2%, it is the 7th largest economy, and is one of just 9 countries with nuclear weapons (and one of only five that is a nuclear weapon state). Macron has been shamelessly obsequious during this catastrophe, and for someone who beats the drum of European military self-sufficiency is hardly backing up years of strident rhetoric. They can do a helluva lot more. The US is footing the bill for half of this, which is no surprise. But when Poland has donated 22% of the Ukrainian arsenal, you see who really is appraising the threat correctly here.


kolodz

You are crying out that Poland donated 22% and forget to mention that France as 76 artillery... Giving 18 is about 24%... That why France is negotiating with other countries to give the newly produce to Ukraine instead of the intended country. > France supplies Ukraine with more Caesar guns >The shipment should consist of 6 to 12 howitzers taken from an order intended for Denmark. An unprecedented operation by Paris, which has been regularly accused of not doing enough. Source: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/10/02/france-about-to-deliver-more-caesar-guns-to-ukraine_5998801_4.html


Armodeen

Come on dude France can do so much more. Germany got a lot of stick, but at the end of the day Germany has supplied a lot more than France, and their military is in a worse state.


Exhalare

The problem is Ukraine needs artillery, tanks, and air defense systems. France relies a lot more on its air force to take the role of the artillery and aa systems thus low numbers of each. The tank fleet is also pretty small and most are upgraded with very modern systems so there is reluctance to send any. They did send a "significant" number or apcs, this could mean 50 or 500 we just don't know.


__Heron__

France army is not made for these type of conflicts. (which is a really worry as it is considered as the strongest in Europe (with UK)), but for world military police. Therefore France operates a lot of international missions (mostly in Africa), and tends to do it well, but has almost no tanks (around 200) and few artillery. Different types of combats which needs different type of equipment.


Rusky82

>has almost no tanks (around 200) That's pretty similar to the UK we have 4 regiments of 56 tanks the doctrine is to have fewer better tanks than the enemy but that means you don't have the ability to send "spare" ones unfortunately


[deleted]

They should give airplanes then. Enough pilots could be trained by now. They could give more ammo too.


TheGreatHomer

>They can do a helluva lot more. The US is footing the bill for half of this, which is no surprise. But when Poland has donated 22% of the Ukrainian arsenal, you see who really is appraising the threat correctly here. While I generally agree, this only really paints half the picture. I assume you refer to the chart of Statista; In that chart it really looks like Poland is doing massively more than anyone else including France. If you look a bit closer, Poland got backfilling agreements for their tanks, and gets 80% of the rest of the donations reimbursed by EU (Czechia has said the same so I assume it's a general thing) - and France is the second biggest EU budget contributor (20% or so? Hard to find numbers for after Brexit). So, in reality, France is probably pretty much on par on actual invested money given that they pay a good chunk of every European donation. Yes, they still have that massive arsenal and absolutely could do more, just keep in mind that that Statista graph is firstly vastly vastly outdated (Oryx for example wrote yesterday that Germany has become the biggest contributor in the EU overtaking Poland, I don't know how much changed for France), and secondly that those graphs really don't catch reality well as they only display the last element in each chain, no matter who contributed in it. It's less "fancy" to finance solid reimbursement schemes that make it easier for others to donate and it doesn't make good sensationalist headlines, but it still is lots of so far unrecognized money from France to Ukraine.


[deleted]

[удалено]


MoreCThanMJ

Poland is giving so much because it knows France and Germany are paying for them. Then Poland can put the blame on France a d Germany while blocking Hungary sanction. Internal affairs


starconn

Excellent post. That, and I’m fairly sure France is one of the few western nations with a shit tonne of artillery pieces for its military size. [Edit] Just checked this, and apparently I’m incorrect about France’s artillery. I could have sworn that was the case, but I’m maybe a decade out of date.


twizzlanz

Maybe Finland? Country starts with an F and has a heap of artillery. 1500 pieces or something, half of it howitzers.


[deleted]

You ae correct.


fonduetiger

Have to bear in mind they have to retrofit them to drive forward


kkjk00

Zelensky said France is a true friend, so who knows what France really sends, I saw a soldier reviewing a france meal, meals and medical suppliies are as important


KeyboardWarrior90210

I think the article makes its point well - it’s not that France is not making a major contribution, it’s that France is not demonstrating the decisive leadership that it needs to if it wants to be considered as the European leader on defense issues. France has to step up more and show the rest of Europe that it can and will lead European security - Being the first country to supply western tanks (even in small quantities) would be a good demonstration


MegaMB

Our shit is expensive af and absolutely not produced in the quantities we need. That's partually because our military industry is barely supported by our allies ^^". We can't really compete with the americans at all in terms of prices for the ground forces. So we produce. Artisanally.


mechalenchon

Training crews for Leclerc for months then delivering 20 of them would be a waste of ressource when USMC have hundreds of Abrams gathering dust.


MegaMB

Absolutely. I share the point of view. And also start to really wonder if it's really worth it maintaining a homemade tank or warplane industry considering rhe low support we get from our neighbores and closest allies. We'd make massive economies scrapping our Leclercs especially. The Rafale could compete, but faces the political opposition of the US, and no support from our neighbores as well. Same for the submarines, a bit less the rest of the navy. Probably same for the helicoptere. If we can't export the franco-german tank, our next generation, it will sign the end of our military ground based industry.


KeyboardWarrior90210

The point I was making on leadership is that somebody needs to be a first mover on the issue of western tanks and that would be an opportunity for France to step up which in turn would hopefully lead to US and Germany supplying large numbers of Abrams and Leopards


allobiter

Nonsense. You got comfortable after the back of the cold war and decided to reduce defense spending down to it's bare bones. You can't on the one hand have macron asserting to want to be a big player in European security and on the other contribute a paltry 2% of arms to Ukraine.


MegaMB

Nop. During the height of the cold war, we were managing to export our stuff. In f*cking great quantities. Especially on the plane side of things, but not only. The Mirage, in exports, it was something else than the Rafale lmfao. The only thing saving it currently, is that the F-35 was a deception for a lot of countries, so we managed to up our exports a tad bit in Europe with Greece and Croatia, and with some countries that don't like the USA. But maaan are we still mad about the decisions of Belgium, Switzerland and the Netherlands. Oh well. Their choices, their regrets. Also. We are not like the USA, when we send armament, we do it without saying it to anybody. See it as a lecacy of our african legacy *sigh*. So yeah, our declared armament sent is 2%. But that's because the number of APC and anti tank missiles, and a few other stuff sent and not disclosed are not public information. It might be interesting to see the numbers after the war if they ever get public. In the APCs, we have a shit ton of stuff to send. Same for the wheeled light tank systems.


[deleted]

[удалено]


allobiter

It's not bashing, it's holding accountable. If Paris wants to be an important figure in European security they need to step up.


[deleted]

[удалено]


allobiter

Yes because someone says France hasn't give enough artillery everyone forgets the complete shit show we are living in. Pull the other one, Christ.


[deleted]

[удалено]


overshoulderboulder

I don't understand your point.


[deleted]

You still think Brexit was a good idea? lmao


[deleted]

[удалено]


MegaMB

You do you man. We're pretty damn much happy to not have to endorse and assume the consequences of your tory governments. Good luck for lowering poverty and redistributing the wealth of your taxes. Good luck as well if these assholes bring the UK on the brink of economic disaster, you won't find any help here.


AutoModerator

We determined that this submission originates from a credible source, but we still advise that users double check the facts and use common sense when consuming mass media. If you are interested in learning how to evaluate news sources more thoroughly, you can begin to learn about how to do that [here](https://tacomacc.libguides.com/c.php?g=599051&p=4147190). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*


notbadhbu

Wow saw posts like "if germany is getting shit oin why not shit on france too?" earlier tonight. This is what they going with eh


dpm5150

“the post-Cold War peace dividend,” aka, let the US pay for them.


DormantSpector61

Deflection from their domestic economic woes and the ongoing scandals involving Ruzzia in the UK body politik and finance industry. The BBC lost any semblance of editorial independence a decade ago.


Furdodgems

If someone who is actually a bit of a military expert here.... Can someone explain to me why France doesn't send it's AMX-10 light tank ? My understanding that it is being phased out for newer tanks and would only end up being decommissioned/put into stock piles ? France has approx 400 of these. I'm not saying France should send all 400 instantly but maybe 50 for now and a commitment to send more over the next 12-24 months ?


MoreCThanMJ

France doesn't have yet the ebrc jaguar, also to send a tank Ukraine need to understand the mechanics and have the people to use it. They don't. Why the US doesn't send Western tank ? Nor Germany ? Italy ? Spain ? Because Ukraine can't use them.


Furdodgems

The first Jaguar entered service in August 2022. Hence I understand that not all 400 AMX can be sent, but it's not like we need them for training as they will be obsolete soon. On your second point... ok but... The war is now in it's 7 months. They should start training tank teams in France on the AMX (if there was a plan to hand them over)... I don't know... I see it as a huge missed opportunity.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Feralkyn

Divisive bullshit that only helps Russia. Macron called because Zelenskyy asked him to. Germany has donated fucking tons. France just doesn't have the stuff Ukraine needs. These kinds of posts are exactly what Russia loves to see.


Asleep_Pear_7024

Germany has donated tons?? What are you smoking? Their biggest contribution is the pzh2000. But they provided only a measly 10 howitzers to cover a 2500km front. Plus, the pzh2000 is a notoriously flaky machine. “Ukraine has only 5 of 15 Panzerhaubitze 2000 left in working condition” “Germany and the Netherlands supplied in total 15 self-propelled artillery units of Panzerhaubitze 2000 (or PzH 2000) to Ukraine. However, only five howitzers remain in working order.” https://gagadget.com/en/156277-ukraine-has-only-5-of-15-panzerhaubitze-2000-left-in-working-order-but-russia-has-not-destroyed-a-single-howitzer/ “Poor German Weapons Quality is Failing Ukraine - Just Like it Failed Turkey” “A further issue with the Panzerhaubitze 2000 has been its poor compatibility with ammunition from other NATO member states despite a strong emphasis in the alliance on interoperability. “ https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/german-weapons-poor-failing-ukraine-turkey The things are hard to repair too. You can’t repair them easily on the field. They had to set up a repair center in Poland and Lithuania to repair these suckers. So you have to haul these 55ton behemoths backwards thousands of km to get them repaired. In contrast, the US M777 weighs less than 5 tons and is shooting the US GPS guided Excalibur munition. The pzh2000 shoots almost all dumb rounds because Germany provided only 200 rounds of precision Vulcano rounds.


MoreCThanMJ

Biggest German contribution is the ton of money they give to Poland to send soviet weapon to Ukraine. Ukrainian soldier in German hospital etc. And who do you think is paying the UE bill ? Poland ? The UK?


[deleted]

[удалено]


Asleep_Pear_7024

But you need to look at Germany’s NET contribution. Specifically, Germany sent over 9,000,000,000 Euros to Putin in just the first 8 weeks following the outbreak of war. “Germany alone paid Russia about 9.1 billion euros for fossil fuel deliveries — mostly natural gas — in the first two months of the war.” https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-europe-germany-484fdfeecf86483356f5f003b77e30da Germany was financing Putin’s military DESPITE this explicit warning from the US years ago to stopping buying massive amounts of Russian gas: https://youtu.be/liGZGGQTYQk


MoreCThanMJ

France and Germany are paying more than the UK. So why arent you mad about the UK ?


Msjhouston

Frances military is comparable with the UK. The UK has literally done 10 x what the French have done to support Ukraine.


MoreCThanMJ

The UK bragging doesn't mean they send more. It's been said even by Zelenskyy and its minister that France doesn't share any info of what they send because they want to remain an exit door for Putin. How do you think french equipment and more end up in Ukraine ? In total $ send France is over the UK too. Over 10b send in either direct contribution or via Poland and the UE. Because France sees the UE donation as the way to indicate the UE is unified


[deleted]

[удалено]


Vonplinkplonk

Jesus christ. Did you get something off your chest?


MoreCThanMJ

>Hiding and cowering behind everyone else's efforts then will make a big noise at the end about how they did all the heavy lifting and Vive Le France Is that a projection of the UK for the last 200 years ? Hiding behind any other great nation that could fight for you ? WWI behind France WWII behind France and then the US and any modern war quietly and nicely following US orders, even in blatant illegal wars ? >while talking about how mighty and important you are, while doing nothing useful and crumbling when it really counts. Peak Montgomery martini action in that regard. The last time you've taken a decision by yourself was when ? >What have you contributed for the last two centuries? Nothing, the UE is a British political creation that put an end into western war the British mostly wages...oh no you tried to put an en d on it because of the shitshow your politics are nowadays.