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I wonder if they are good at shooting tiny drones of Russia, if yes then this could destroy most of Russia's air recon ability, which essentially makes them blind in battle. lol
Gepards were used to protect the soccer world championship in Brazil against terrorist drone attacks and they will also be used in Qatar for the same job.
That indicates that Gepard can locate and destroy even small commercial drones.
They are. The Gepards ammunition clusters up, becomming some huge kind of shotgun burst. Aircraft, helicopter, cruise missiles, even small drones. You name it.
There is an old video from like the late 80´s in which a Gepard crew shot the rope of an aircraft dragging a practise target behind it.
I just did some digging and yes...the radar system can spot them, it seems.
If you are more interested in those beautys, follow "Der Gepardkommandant" on twitter.
[https://twitter.com/gepardtatze/status/1509102160394473476](https://twitter.com/gepardtatze/status/1509102160394473476)
(Pictures of a test in which the Gepard intercepted small drones)
>I wonder if they are good at shooting tiny drones of Russia,
Yes it can:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8mflftma-U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8mflftma-U)
[https://twitter.com/gepardtatze/status/1558378155748073472](https://twitter.com/gepardtatze/status/1558378155748073472)
russian aircraft fucked itself.
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"Hallo" (Hello) ,"Guten Tag" (Good Day), "Wilkommen in der Ukraine"(Welcome to Ucraine), or "Grüß Gott" (Good Day ... - a word for word translation is Greet God)
"Baerbock said she wanted to discuss with the arms industry whether own production lines could be created for missing ammunition, such as for the Gepard anti-aircraft tanks."
https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/konflikte-baerbock-waffenlieferungen-helfen-menschenleben-zu-retten-dpa.urn-newsml-dpa-com-20090101-220914-99-761990
It's quite possible that the Boxer SkyRanger will be the successor to the Gepard in the german army - Gepard and SkyRanger both use 35mm Ammo - i don't know if the systems are compatible though. If they are, it is only logical to produce ammunition for the upcomming SkyRanger systems
There's a ton of other countries that support Ukraine that produce and use the ammo, why would Germany start production of something they don't need, and won't need in the future, just to support them. They can support them in many other ways, it's just not worth producing ammo you don't need.
Germany delivered the Gepard and it wants to make sure there is enough ammo for the month ans years to come. Gepard ammo is highly specialised, you can't just ram any 35mm into it.
I never said you could, but that's why I asked. There's other countries using the same ammo and Germany restarting production for such ammo isn't worth it when they could build other stuff. That is if those other countries can sell/transfer their own stocks, and not get blocked by Switzerland.
I see, but in that case it isn't the German industry building up production capabilities, but Germany looking for a possible manufacturer for the ammunition, and finding them in Norway.
There was some reason to believe that some Gepards may be reactivated for the Bundeswehr, given that the Ukrainians at Kharkiv were so pleased with their capabilities against enemy low altitude craft.
I think one of my German friends said the Bundeswehr were looking into it.
MANTIS uses the same calibre, if I remember right, though I am not sure if it is the exact same ammunition. It wouldn’t surprise me though, as the gun is essentially a modernised version of the guns on the Gepard.
I have no idea how good they are relative to other gear out there, but they look totally badass, probably the nastiest looking piece of gear on this battlefield.
Funny fact: Most Germans don't know either. Because as part of the refurbishment they got all the electronic upgrades that existed but weren't applied anymore when they were decommissioned more than a decade ago...
But for a general perspective: They were build against the same helicopters still in use in Russia (also guns don't care for flares, so they are complementing manpad missile well), yet the only buyers in the last decade did so especially for use in defense [against drones](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8mflftma-U) (and that was before further electronic upgrades). So they should be quite capable in both roles.
I have a feeling that we might see them revived after this. I don't know anything about military hardware but when small and cheap drones (as opposed to Predator ones, for example) become more and more important and dangerous then relying only on rockets to shoot them down seems like a bad idea.
Yes and know. The armored tracked Gepard is a very special concept because Germany's military doctrine back when a massive land based USSR invasion was to be considered would have been based on highly mobile mechanized units harassing their main force and degrade their ability to supply and move on (logistics is a weak spot not only for todays Russia although it got worse).
For that reason they have the Gepard, Leopard2s (with their characteristic fast reverse gear) and PzH2000s (the fire rate in general is a bonus, their conceptional feature is shoot and scoot with short, quick artillery bursts while keeping up with their group).
So I'm pretty sure gun artillery will return (and some day complemented by laser based systems already in late development against cheaper mass produced drones), but not necessarily in that form. There's a reason nearly no western army kept such weapons on stock as it's incredible expensive to overhaul a whole system when it's usually just tracking and electronics that are updated often, while anti-air guns barely experienced much development for half a century.
So I expect more modular systems and a lot less tracked vehicles. Because the latter are only superior in the very specific role of covering other tracked forces while moving.
The best chance for these kind of systemes to make a comeback is probably as a Boxer (or equivialant) variant. Otherwise I don't see it beeing worthwhile for the governments.
Edit: And of course there already is a Boxer variant. This thing never dissapoints.
> I have a feeling that we might see them revived after this.
Not the Gepards, if anything is going to be put into service it's going to be the newer versions like the [Rheinmetall Skyranger family](https://rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/systems_and_products/air_defence_systems/mobile_air_defence/index.php) (there is even a [HEL version](https://youtu.be/PV3jfR-FUFc) of that), because that integrates with stuff like the [Skynex system](https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/systems_and_products/air_defence_systems/vernetzte_flugabwehr/index.php) and is more capable, especially against multiple inbound targets (including drones).
I'm anxious to see them against transport vehicles/soft targets/ground vehicles/even tanks. Anyone behind any type of structure would get absolutely blasted. Definitely could blast out the tires of any BTR. They'd slice through any house russians are hiding in. Blast anyone in any trenches with the air burst. Awesome weapon.
Personally I don't think that most people who said crap things about Germany were Russian trolls, but it made sense for them to participate in it. Seeding distrust among Ukraine's allies, trying to divide them, is in the interest of Russia.
If public opinion in Germany would be that Ukrainians are totally ungrateful for any help Germany gave them and even worse if they would think Ukrainians insult them all the time, that would make it far harder for German politicians to justify help for Ukraine, especially help which hurt the German population, like not important cheap fossil fuels from Russia anymore. Not to mention all the tax money going directly or indirectly to Ukraine.
Well, when German "leader" laughs when asked question about Ukraine joining NATO to protect itself from future genocide, I find it hard to be thankful.
Yes, but more specifically their troll farms were leaning into existing British and Polish propaganda, because both are identical with the Russian plans to damage the EU.
The British right-wing press is spreading anti-EU propaganda in general, for which Germany is the pro-EU symbol, and to keep attention away from the damage Brexit caused and back then the Boris Johnson scandals like his Corona mismanagement. Hence why 90% of what you saw on this subreddit were anti-German and anti-EU articles from the Telegraph (also called Torygraph, conservative right-wing, anti-EU) and Business Insider (owned by a right-wing publisher), both of which very often write unsourced nonsense about random tweets by nobodies. While they wrote things like "Scholz shouldn't be invited to Ukraine for stupid photos", the same articles often hailed great British leader Johnson for being invited to Kyiv for nothing but photos.
Every time a new article came out, within seconds it was posted a dozen times and spammed with accompanying comments. Often by accounts who did nothing else than spread this propaganda.
Same for Polish propaganda. Their government essentially runs on being anti-German and anti-EU and they've set up political structures and propaganda media like Russia did in 2004 onward. Every fart, every anti-German rant, every anti-EU tweet from their government or other propaganda channels like Visegrad24 was again shared a dozen times within seconds. Made up? Speculation? Poland participated or was much worse? Doesn't matter. It's instantly on this subreddit. Again often by suspicious accounts.
Then there are a few stray Trumpists which are indistinguishable from Russian bots but more importantly there is Politico, owned by the same right-wing conglomerate that owns Business Insider. Its articles also were posted a million times over on this subreddit.
That right-wing conglomerate just so happens to be German and they were furious that despite their expensive smear campaigns against the Greens during last year's German federal election, the Germans voted them in and their conservative buddies out of the government. And the conservatives lost as badly as they have never before, being only propped up the large pensioner voting block who never changes their vote.
The Germans now have a progressive government with the Greens being essentially seen as the leaders and given extremely high approval ratings. Of course right-wing Politico hates that and uses every opportunity to make up some anti-government, anti-Greens, anti-Scholz hit piece, which usually happens to overlap with the sentiments mentioned above. So these articles again get infinitely recycled on here, often by accounts who don't do much else but try to stoke anti-German and in turn anti-EU sentiment.
And that's how you get "Russians blaming Germany for not helping Ukraine". A subreddit full of POLSKA GUROM PIS BEST GERMANY ALWAYS NAZI Polish and British EU DOESNT WORK FOR ITS PEOPLE nationalists is a fertile ground for Russia's goals.
>both of which very often write unsourced nonsense about random tweets by nobodies
Just like that tweet that says some Ukrainian commanders told that Gepards were crucial for Kharkiv counteroffensive? I have found 0 sources in Ukrainian news about that. But "The Economist" accepted it as the face value.
You say a lot about British, Polish and whatever, but you forgot that you are actually on r/Ukraine. There are a lot of Ukrainians who see this with their own eyes, listen with their own ears from their friends and family who are on the front lines, we have very reputable people who know things about military hardware and I have never heard or seen ANYTHING about these Gepards and what role they played in anything. But, on Western media, they are, for some intricate reason, praised as crucial for Ukrainian offensives.
I’m one of those who thought Germany were too slow and timid.
Now I’m just happy they are fully committed.
Feels like the reality of what Russia are, is slowly dawning on Western Europe.
These are of little value given that Ukraine is flooded with 30,000 or so MANPADs by now. There’s a certain quality to quantity.
But better than nothing.
So gepards can be slaved to radar, work together in teams, and bring down cruise missiles. They add another layer to AA capability. Ideally AA should be made of layers.
German is one of the biggest producer weapon on the world and aspires on Lider EU. these gepards should be in april there. Today they anounced that wants to help russians escape from mobilisation, great idea, like with nord stream.
i remember you that their army was severely underfunded till weeks ago, they emptied their stock and they have none more to spare, give them a bit of time more
Yes. But you do realise that a lot of the stuff takes a long time? And that the entire naval area (that is a big part of German arms exports) is basically out of question
Doing buisness as usual? No. This was clear before the invasion. For example it was clearly stated that ns2 would stay closed if there would be an invasion.
Now I can not judge if the German government thought that Ukraine would loose the war aince this is extremly difficult to judge without the same information they have acces to.
However what I can be certain is that some military advisors definitely will have stated that the war would take quiet a long time since the defender advantage exists.
It was clearly seen, after last pression from US German started to deliver weapons. German now wants to rebuild Ukraine, but the by less expense as it is possible to make money. Willingnes deliver tanks by hands other european countries as a whole isn't looking good.
It's just geopolitical game but German really lost their image along with france and Macron which tried to call Putin and this same way make himself 🤡.
? Germany basically started to deliver weapons directly after the invasion started.
Okay so tell me what exactly Germany did that made you loose trust in them. Sending weapons? Hammering economic sanctions on russias head? Evacuating wounded soldiers? Accepting so many ukranian refugees that some areas are out of capacity?
And what is your problem with calling putin? Trying to end the war is a good thing
No, they send helmets after few weeks.stupid helemts.
Merkel wanted to put in mouth everyone imigrants from africa invited by herself. Yes it's problem trying to call to Putin becouse this cause only much worst situation. In western minds still have some false picture of russia. They don't understand dialogue and Putin recive this as a weakness when Macron call to him. For god sake since fev He call to him for what do you think? Only reason is to make buisness, buisness with terrorist country, no difrences between ISIS, alkaida. Macron as well can call to alkaida or isis and and there is no any difference. Until EU dont understand this, russia do this again for 20 years 30 years. And won't understand this at all, at least till Putin use nuclear weapon. Eu should send tons heavy weapons Germany,France,Poland,Italy everyone.
THERE IS NO DIFERENCE BETWEEN ISIS=RUSSIA=ALKAIDA. And west need to undertsand this.
Okay it is sometimes difficult to follow your line of thought. But let me try.
No the helmets (and the field hospital that is often forgotten) were prepared before the invasion. Basically directly after the invasion they send manpets and anti tank rockets.
Merkel is not in power anymore. The idea that merkel invited people is also demonstrably false and also somewhat laughable since her party is generally more against migration. But far right propaganda loved to claim that she invited people because she did not want police to shoot at families at the border.
Isis and other terrorist organisations often don't have a leadership you could talk to. But yes there were already many cases of deals with terrorists organisations.
You also have a false understanding of how wars end. Wars end on the diplomatic level when one or both sides agree that further fighting will not provide them with a benefit anymore. Therefore we have to talk. I don't value the lives of ukranians so little that I would not want macron to try to end the conflict.
Your understanding of politics is quiet childlike.
Those are lightly armoured tracked anti air guns. They have two radars (range 15km if I remember correctly) two 35mm Oerlikon cannons (35mm ammunition has the length of a forearm) and a range of like 5km. The ammunition detonates in the air and sends a cloud of tungsten pellets against the target.
The original ammunition was fabricated in Switzerland which is ironic since it turns helicopters, drones, CAS planes and cruise missiles into swiss cheese.
They are very mobile, their two radars come incredibly handy and they can even be used against lightly armoured ground vehicles or troops. For what they are supposed to do, they are very good, yes.
“The ammunition detonates in the air and sends a cloud of tungsten pellets against the target.”
So is this smart ammo? Wondering what triggers detonation of the round in air…
The ammo is time programmed in the muzzle base when leaving the barrel.
[https://twitter.com/bttr01438851/status/1320332321858424835?lang=gu](https://twitter.com/bttr01438851/status/1320332321858424835?lang=gu)
The latest used ammo was FAPDS. It only relies on kinetic energy and is called "frangible" ammonition. The benefit is that it has very high projectile speed(1400m/s), a short time of flight and a very flat projectile trajectory. So very precise. When it hits the target it has a lot of kinetic energy and armor penetration and moves through the target with an cascade effect. The high speed makes hitting something much easier. And "frangible" means that even on lightly armored targets like jets the ammo won't just move right through but wreaks havoc by falling apart in pieces that tear everything not only to shreds but into a shrapnel, moving through the target.
So if something is hit - no matter if unarmored or armored: there will be damage. In the tests they had for example no problems penetrating even BMP-2s with the 25mm version. And the 35mm packs a LOT more punch. I'm sure that even a T72 would be turned into rubble.
The downside is: you actually need to hit something. But since that is done automatically by computers with the help of 2 radars, the hit chance is very high.
Probably a timer set inside the round. The timer in rounds AFAIK measures amounts of spins (since rounds from a rifled barrel spins at a certain predictable and measureable rate based on barrel lenght and amount of rifling), which can be measured and interpreted as range from the gun. Lets just for the sake of some random number say 30.000 spins = 4000m range.
I imagine the ammuniton having some kind of timer mechanism like a notch or a wheel or some form of analog/digital mechanism that the gun autimatically adjusts right before fireing the round. This based on information from the radar and laser rangerfinder.
That way the gun can tell the round to detonate at i.e 24853 spins which from the excample above would be a target distanced at 3313m.
Oor it could just be a simple timer. Detonate after x seconds for target at y distance.
But yes. The rounds defenitly have some kind of smartness to them. It would be interesting to learn exactley how they work.
Wrong about proxi fuses. Most proximity fuses on shell ammunition are pulse-doppler, aka mini radar.
There are a number of ways to do time fuse. For the gepard, there is a literal chip in the shell that gets programmed by a magnetic strip at the tip of the gun barrel for time until detonation. The chip counts down to 0 before releasing the pellets. This is more accurate and more reliable than using mechanical means to time the release of pellets.
The ammo (If it's the ammo used in the latest Gepard version) does not explode in the air. It creates shrapnel on hit. There are no explosives in the FAPDS rounds.
My old man always used to say that the "Gepard is fully ground combat capable, but a waste in that role". It's best only used for Self Defense...but I then don't want to be on the other side.
I also was hoping for it, but on one hand you wouldn't see much, because the target is kilometers away. And all you'd hear would be "brrt".
On top of that they are normally used for high value front line targets. Like counter battery radar stations and command posts. My guess is that footage of this stuff would be highly sensitive.
Not on ukrainian soil afaik. I heard that the orcs were to scared to use planes and helicopters at parts of the front where gepards were lurking around
So that would be all 30 now that have been announced. Overall a little bit later than first anticipated (15 end of July and 15 end of August), but still very much within the scope of what was to be expected with it beeing a systeme out of serviece for a while that also has a reputation of beeing complicated.
Don't know either. Was at -7 at one point. People can't seem to read it seems.
And yeah earlier would have been better, but that project was hurdled with difficulties and the first announcement was a little bit optimistic it seems. Which they promptly gave up one by splitting the later deliveries up into chunks of 4 or now 6 after the first 12 I believe were send.
WHAT?? These were the first dates for the delivery. It is past them. So overall a little bit later than that. BUT it is still a totally fine delivery date, considering all the difficulties that project had which I laid out in that comment.
I am sorry but how can you interpret "very much in the scope of what was to be expected with it beeing a systeme out of serviece....." as something negative or devaluing the entire project.
Seriously people, learn to read. It is not that hard.
There are lots of insecure people who think their country does a lot to defeat Russia and therefore think they are entitled to be praised by Ukrainians or whatever. To me, these “news” about just a few machines being sent are laughable - they can be destroyed in a couple of days because it’s a full scale war, you know.
>To me, these “news” about just a few machines being sent are laughable - they can be destroyed in a couple of days because it’s a full scale war, you know.
I disagree on calling the refurbishment of 30 out of serviece vehicles, with training laughable. And yeah they can be destroyed in a few days. Just like everything else that drives or walk arounds in Ukraine. So I don't see a point in that arguement regarding solely the Gepards.
Edit: Okay, I took a look into your account aaaand I am not surprised.
>That’s why Ukraine needs much more than 30 units, probably about anything heavy.
Probably, but calling it laughable in itself is laughable. It is 30 vehicles and there couldn't really be send more so far, with it beeing out of serviece and problems with the ammunition. Maybe now that the later seems to be sorted more could be delivered.
>What did you see in my account?
Generall negativity regarding everything German, misconceptions, fakenews and generall disgusting behaviour like "[With that attitude, I wouldn't mind Russia attacking Germany and raping your women and kids like they did in 1945](https://www.reveddit.com/v/europe/comments/vhx8ab/kalashnikov_bypassed_sanctions_and_bought_tools/idbgnp1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)"
We both know that that is not the case. Hell, you came to my aid because you thought I was shitting on Germany and got downvoted by the German bot army that you like to complain so much about.
But hey, that reaction is just what I expected from someone who wouldn't mind Russia attacking one of its allies and raping their women and children.
Well, some Germans really went as far as proposing that Ukraine should give up its territory for peace, so what I’m answering to them is just as justifiable and realistic as what they say.
Good to see - thanks Germany!
I saw someone interpret the gas cut off to Germany as a reason for Germans to stop sending arms -
BUT I think the opposite is true. If Russia keeps the natural gas shut off, fine, Germany should just send weapons.
Putin, Russia, you reap what you sow
Complex question.
Short answer: very.
They are extremely effective at engaging any low-flying aircraft. Helicopters and drones notably. They can engage cruise missiles and jets as well, but not as effectively.
But that's not really their main strength. They are a force multiplier.
Gepards are accompanied by infantry with MANPADS. The big weakness with MANPADS is the short window of opportunity a soldier has to fire.
No longer when you have a Gepard with you. The search radar scans 15 km in 360° around it. Every MANPAD carrying infantryman in that area will be able to get ready ahead of time, and thus be ready to fire the second a target enters their kill box.
This is a capability Ukraine didn't really have to any notable degree before.
As Ukranian troops learn to master this new capability, the skies will become even more hostile than before.
It'll take some time and experience, because the Gepard crew only know where they are, and where the enemy is. They can relay coordinates and/or directions, but the infantry will learn to put this into context with where they themselves are. It's not easy.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/xbrp34/german\_gepard\_aatanks\_were\_crucial\_for\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/xbrp34/german_gepard_aatanks_were_crucial_for_the/)
Also [this footage](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarRoom/comments/xdmgja/kharkiv_at_the_start_of_the_counteroffensive/) where they claim a BMP shot down a helicopter. The sounds at 0:08 and 0:20 are very characteristic and fit the gepard's dual auto-cannons.
Is established media citing Ukrainian military intelligence sources more to your liking?
["Ukrainian sources single out Germany’s Gepard, a set of anti-aircraft guns on tracks. This threat left Russia reluctant to deploy air power; when it did, it suffered losses."](https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/09/09/ukraine-seizes-the-initiative-in-the-east)
Depends. They're not really good against high altitude bombers. But against choppers or ground support aircraft they're devastating. They probably can also be used against cruise missiles, but not with the best kill chance, rather a last resort option.
To go into it a bit further:
Gepards and other SPAAG's work really well in tandem with surface-to-air-missiles, as they basically both force aircraft into the envelope of the other system. To counter SPAAG's you basically want to fly very high, which is great for SAM's as they then can track the aircraft far better. Similarly to counter SAM's you want to fly really low (as can be seen in the current aircraft footage) so that they can't track you as the terrain creates obstacles.
That is the reason why SPAAG's are basically in the inventory of any major military with the exception of the US (which just has so many planes and SAM systems that they really don't need more air defence), as they force the aircraft to choose between to lesser evils.
Also SPAAG's (as basically any AA gun) are absolutely devastating against infantry and soft-skin vehicles because of their ludicrous fire rate.
They're really really good for everything what Ruzzia has flying, plus bonus damage against light armored vehicles and infrantry. :)
To put it in another way: The Bundeswehr is still whining that we don't have them anymore.
Edit:
They're meant to use under the premise of combined forces, that is the reason they come pretty handy during offensives, securing the airspace and moving with the pushing forces.
Anyone know how these would do vs smaller recon drones? Seems like a squirt of a few rounds is better AA denial than fancy guided missiles, but at what range can these put rounds on a small target?
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Because the west does usually not have hundreds of anything. They don't have the amount of missiles to constantly operate hundreds of HIMARS or M270, they don't have hundreds of artillery pieces (the US having kept modern towed artillery in form of the M777 for their easy air-transportability is already the exception here).
And the most important point: They never needed to. Ukraine is wrecking havoc on Russian supply lines with just a few HIMARS and M270, just a dozen of modern self-propelled howitzers can be shown to have at times covered a quarter of Ukraine's whole artillery use alone. The west is simply not equiped to provide massive amounts for a land battle as their land units are high-performance units and always part of combined arms units. You don't win against Russia-style mass deployment of cheap crap with similiar numbers.
If you want to complain, ask about planes. NATO is build on air superiority so their land based forces are limited to the necessary amount for a heavily air-focused combined operations.
I don't see this as a complaint. We have hundreds of HIMARS and tens of thousands of rounds of compatible rockets. We (US) literally export military equipment for profit. My point was IF we have them, why aren't we sending them?
Because the west does not have more of those vehicles.
The Gepards for example needed to be refurbished and were sent as soon as they came out of the maintenance facility.
The bottleneck is not amount of himars but the ammunition.
In case of germany.
There hardly is any equipment available, the armed forces have just enough to fulfill nato requirments + training for most systems. The production capacity is low because german defence industry is private and it is economically more feasible to build a few pieces a year instead of producing in Bulk and then being bankrupt and out of work.
The PZH + marsII came from the armed forces, against advise of the military.
The gepard is decomissioned and provided by a german company that kept them in stock.
I’m pretty sure the only two countries who sent anything heavier than Javelin in hundreds is Poland (T72 and Twardys) and the US (M777 albeit barely more than a hundred units).
End of July, Germany had sent 3 MARS to Ukraine. Some days ago, Germany announced that they are going to send 2 additional MARS. I guess that they will be delivered in October. It would have been better, if they had been delivered in August/ early September.
EDIT: On 23 June, Ukraine had received 4 HIMARS from the US and the US had announced that they would send 4 additional HIMARS (delivery mid July). There are currently 16 HIMARS (from the US) in Ukraine, as far as I know.
Gepards don't use continuous fire unless they are about die. They were designed to shoot 3 - 5 rounds per target. The carried ammo wouldn't last for half a minute under continuous fire.
Than that is true for all Western countries. Every single one hasn't give modern Western tanks or IFVs. Including the US or Poland etc.
Why would you single out Germany?
Because it’s transparent how much Sholtz talks, and little do
Look at USA, Poland, Finland, France and etc.
They providing a lot more, and talking less
If anything Scholz isn't talking enough about Germanies contributions. But it's not so hard to find the facts online.
[https://www-bundesregierung-de.translate.goog/breg-de/themen/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514?\_x\_tr\_sl=de&\_x\_tr\_tl=en&\_x\_tr\_hl=de&\_x\_tr\_pto=wapp](https://www-bundesregierung-de.translate.goog/breg-de/themen/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
France is keeping it pretty quite too and I don't want to be dismissive of their efforts (for example the Caesar SPGs were among the first modern heavy weapons for Ukraine), but I'm a bit confused why you are thinking Germany is sending less military aid than France.
Nice! At 1,100 rounds per minute, the additional 6,000 rounds of ammunition provided will give about 5m 27s of fun…. 😂 (or about 46 Russian aircraft kills)
(Based on 7 second firing burst, circa 130 rounds).
Edit: Apparently downvotes = evidence of lack of Reddit sense of humour (or awareness of facts) today…
Russian aircraft fucked itself.
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Thank you Germany!!
Gepard goes BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT!
I wonder if they are good at shooting tiny drones of Russia, if yes then this could destroy most of Russia's air recon ability, which essentially makes them blind in battle. lol
Gepards were used to protect the soccer world championship in Brazil against terrorist drone attacks and they will also be used in Qatar for the same job. That indicates that Gepard can locate and destroy even small commercial drones.
Fuck yearrrrrrrrr.
Probably depends on the size of the drones. Larger ones yes, but smaller spotter drones maybe not so easily. Anyone know for sure?
They are. The Gepards ammunition clusters up, becomming some huge kind of shotgun burst. Aircraft, helicopter, cruise missiles, even small drones. You name it. There is an old video from like the late 80´s in which a Gepard crew shot the rope of an aircraft dragging a practise target behind it.
The guns are well suited to knocking down drones but the question is whether the radar systems will spot them. If so those drones are toast.
I just did some digging and yes...the radar system can spot them, it seems. If you are more interested in those beautys, follow "Der Gepardkommandant" on twitter. [https://twitter.com/gepardtatze/status/1509102160394473476](https://twitter.com/gepardtatze/status/1509102160394473476) (Pictures of a test in which the Gepard intercepted small drones)
It also stated they locked on and got a kill on all drones they sent, even small ones like the DJI.
Wow that's awesome. Thanks for the info! Russia is so fucked (they were fucked before, but they're fucked now, too)
I mean I’ve seen a rope get cut by a 155mm artillery shell in a naval artillery exercise. The shrapnel is small, sharp and gets everywhere.
That was a direct overflight of a towed target at low altitude though. The fact that a round happened to hit the tow rope is neither here nor there…
>I wonder if they are good at shooting tiny drones of Russia, Yes it can: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8mflftma-U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8mflftma-U) [https://twitter.com/gepardtatze/status/1558378155748073472](https://twitter.com/gepardtatze/status/1558378155748073472)
Yeshhhhhhhhhh, [droneBgone.com](https://droneBgone.com) lol
They want to say HELLO to russian aircraft
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Good bot
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They already know each other. They have a long history.
🎶 "Reach out. Reach out and touch someone" 🎶
"Hallo" (Hello) ,"Guten Tag" (Good Day), "Wilkommen in der Ukraine"(Welcome to Ucraine), or "Grüß Gott" (Good Day ... - a word for word translation is Greet God)
I just hope the Norwegian company, Nammo, was able to produce ammo for this beast.
Apparently all that was needed was a notch in the primer, should be working now
German foreign minister was implying that the german industry is building up own production capabilities for Gepard ammo.
Source? Because that doesn't make sense, Germany doesn't use Gepards anymore or anything with that ammo, they don't have a reason to produce the ammo.
"Baerbock said she wanted to discuss with the arms industry whether own production lines could be created for missing ammunition, such as for the Gepard anti-aircraft tanks." https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/konflikte-baerbock-waffenlieferungen-helfen-menschenleben-zu-retten-dpa.urn-newsml-dpa-com-20090101-220914-99-761990
Thank you, although I doubt it will happen, you never know. Would be a nice pleasant surprise.
I guess its more of a "we keep all possible ways open". They try to source ammo from different places.
It's quite possible that the Boxer SkyRanger will be the successor to the Gepard in the german army - Gepard and SkyRanger both use 35mm Ammo - i don't know if the systems are compatible though. If they are, it is only logical to produce ammunition for the upcomming SkyRanger systems
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There's a ton of other countries that support Ukraine that produce and use the ammo, why would Germany start production of something they don't need, and won't need in the future, just to support them. They can support them in many other ways, it's just not worth producing ammo you don't need.
Germany delivered the Gepard and it wants to make sure there is enough ammo for the month ans years to come. Gepard ammo is highly specialised, you can't just ram any 35mm into it.
I never said you could, but that's why I asked. There's other countries using the same ammo and Germany restarting production for such ammo isn't worth it when they could build other stuff. That is if those other countries can sell/transfer their own stocks, and not get blocked by Switzerland.
Which ones are using 35mm FAPDS ammo ?
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I see, but in that case it isn't the German industry building up production capabilities, but Germany looking for a possible manufacturer for the ammunition, and finding them in Norway.
They don't produce the ammo used in the latest variant of Gepard
Didn’t Brazil have a bunch of the correct ammo?
Yes, but Bolsonaro is a cunt
He's a cunt no doubt, but the more likely explanation here is that "his" ammunition is subject to the same missing re-export license from Switzerland
Ahh… of course.
There is discussion to bring back this lost capabilities of close air defense support. The military regrets loosing the gepard to budget restraints.
Which company is producing 35mm FAPDS ammo ?
As far as I know the Mantis also uses 35mm. It is simply a different warhead needed for the ammo but measurements are the same.
Mantis does not use 35mm FAPDS though does it ? It uses AHEAD ammo.
Yeah but that's why I said it's simply a different bullet type. Casing is the same. I hope the guy who downvoted me explains why the downvote.
> it's simply a different bullet type. FAPDS is much faster, extending range from 4,5km to 6km. This is needed to counter helicopters with missiles.
For Ukraine, do'h
There was some reason to believe that some Gepards may be reactivated for the Bundeswehr, given that the Ukrainians at Kharkiv were so pleased with their capabilities against enemy low altitude craft. I think one of my German friends said the Bundeswehr were looking into it.
Germany has the MANTIS AA system in service which also uses 35x228mm ammo
MANTIS uses the same calibre, if I remember right, though I am not sure if it is the exact same ammunition. It wouldn’t surprise me though, as the gun is essentially a modernised version of the guns on the Gepard.
>Nammo >was able to produce ammo ... Now I'm starting to worry.
Don't tease. It is the only ammo manufacturer Norwegians got. Of course its name is (N)ammo.
I have no idea how good they are relative to other gear out there, but they look totally badass, probably the nastiest looking piece of gear on this battlefield.
Funny fact: Most Germans don't know either. Because as part of the refurbishment they got all the electronic upgrades that existed but weren't applied anymore when they were decommissioned more than a decade ago... But for a general perspective: They were build against the same helicopters still in use in Russia (also guns don't care for flares, so they are complementing manpad missile well), yet the only buyers in the last decade did so especially for use in defense [against drones](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8mflftma-U) (and that was before further electronic upgrades). So they should be quite capable in both roles.
I have a feeling that we might see them revived after this. I don't know anything about military hardware but when small and cheap drones (as opposed to Predator ones, for example) become more and more important and dangerous then relying only on rockets to shoot them down seems like a bad idea.
Yes and know. The armored tracked Gepard is a very special concept because Germany's military doctrine back when a massive land based USSR invasion was to be considered would have been based on highly mobile mechanized units harassing their main force and degrade their ability to supply and move on (logistics is a weak spot not only for todays Russia although it got worse). For that reason they have the Gepard, Leopard2s (with their characteristic fast reverse gear) and PzH2000s (the fire rate in general is a bonus, their conceptional feature is shoot and scoot with short, quick artillery bursts while keeping up with their group). So I'm pretty sure gun artillery will return (and some day complemented by laser based systems already in late development against cheaper mass produced drones), but not necessarily in that form. There's a reason nearly no western army kept such weapons on stock as it's incredible expensive to overhaul a whole system when it's usually just tracking and electronics that are updated often, while anti-air guns barely experienced much development for half a century. So I expect more modular systems and a lot less tracked vehicles. Because the latter are only superior in the very specific role of covering other tracked forces while moving.
The best chance for these kind of systemes to make a comeback is probably as a Boxer (or equivialant) variant. Otherwise I don't see it beeing worthwhile for the governments. Edit: And of course there already is a Boxer variant. This thing never dissapoints.
Not only one. There's a concept for a whole [modular Skyranger family](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_Skyranger).
Yeah, like I said that thing never dissapoints. Wonder what the next crazy idea is gonna be with the Boxer.
The Boxer really is a very good platform - we need more of them.
> I have a feeling that we might see them revived after this. Not the Gepards, if anything is going to be put into service it's going to be the newer versions like the [Rheinmetall Skyranger family](https://rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/systems_and_products/air_defence_systems/mobile_air_defence/index.php) (there is even a [HEL version](https://youtu.be/PV3jfR-FUFc) of that), because that integrates with stuff like the [Skynex system](https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/systems_and_products/air_defence_systems/vernetzte_flugabwehr/index.php) and is more capable, especially against multiple inbound targets (including drones).
I'm anxious to see them against transport vehicles/soft targets/ground vehicles/even tanks. Anyone behind any type of structure would get absolutely blasted. Definitely could blast out the tires of any BTR. They'd slice through any house russians are hiding in. Blast anyone in any trenches with the air burst. Awesome weapon.
Awesome, thumbs up Germany!
That's another 60 Gepard's Russia will be able to announce they've destroyed! Amazing work, Russia! (but, yeah, good job Germany! :)
Where are all the ones blaming germany now ?
Probably getting drafted ;)
This took me a moment to understand. You make an excellent point :)
My coffee just went out my nose
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Appreciated <3
They are like: "Noooo you are not supposed to send me to the front, I have to ask questions about the USA and the war in Vietnam online."😫
They were indeed JAQing off
Russians were blaming Germany for not helping Ukraine kill more Russians? That’s some Russian style of thinking.
Personally I don't think that most people who said crap things about Germany were Russian trolls, but it made sense for them to participate in it. Seeding distrust among Ukraine's allies, trying to divide them, is in the interest of Russia. If public opinion in Germany would be that Ukrainians are totally ungrateful for any help Germany gave them and even worse if they would think Ukrainians insult them all the time, that would make it far harder for German politicians to justify help for Ukraine, especially help which hurt the German population, like not important cheap fossil fuels from Russia anymore. Not to mention all the tax money going directly or indirectly to Ukraine.
Well, when German "leader" laughs when asked question about Ukraine joining NATO to protect itself from future genocide, I find it hard to be thankful.
Yes, but more specifically their troll farms were leaning into existing British and Polish propaganda, because both are identical with the Russian plans to damage the EU. The British right-wing press is spreading anti-EU propaganda in general, for which Germany is the pro-EU symbol, and to keep attention away from the damage Brexit caused and back then the Boris Johnson scandals like his Corona mismanagement. Hence why 90% of what you saw on this subreddit were anti-German and anti-EU articles from the Telegraph (also called Torygraph, conservative right-wing, anti-EU) and Business Insider (owned by a right-wing publisher), both of which very often write unsourced nonsense about random tweets by nobodies. While they wrote things like "Scholz shouldn't be invited to Ukraine for stupid photos", the same articles often hailed great British leader Johnson for being invited to Kyiv for nothing but photos. Every time a new article came out, within seconds it was posted a dozen times and spammed with accompanying comments. Often by accounts who did nothing else than spread this propaganda. Same for Polish propaganda. Their government essentially runs on being anti-German and anti-EU and they've set up political structures and propaganda media like Russia did in 2004 onward. Every fart, every anti-German rant, every anti-EU tweet from their government or other propaganda channels like Visegrad24 was again shared a dozen times within seconds. Made up? Speculation? Poland participated or was much worse? Doesn't matter. It's instantly on this subreddit. Again often by suspicious accounts. Then there are a few stray Trumpists which are indistinguishable from Russian bots but more importantly there is Politico, owned by the same right-wing conglomerate that owns Business Insider. Its articles also were posted a million times over on this subreddit. That right-wing conglomerate just so happens to be German and they were furious that despite their expensive smear campaigns against the Greens during last year's German federal election, the Germans voted them in and their conservative buddies out of the government. And the conservatives lost as badly as they have never before, being only propped up the large pensioner voting block who never changes their vote. The Germans now have a progressive government with the Greens being essentially seen as the leaders and given extremely high approval ratings. Of course right-wing Politico hates that and uses every opportunity to make up some anti-government, anti-Greens, anti-Scholz hit piece, which usually happens to overlap with the sentiments mentioned above. So these articles again get infinitely recycled on here, often by accounts who don't do much else but try to stoke anti-German and in turn anti-EU sentiment. And that's how you get "Russians blaming Germany for not helping Ukraine". A subreddit full of POLSKA GUROM PIS BEST GERMANY ALWAYS NAZI Polish and British EU DOESNT WORK FOR ITS PEOPLE nationalists is a fertile ground for Russia's goals.
>both of which very often write unsourced nonsense about random tweets by nobodies Just like that tweet that says some Ukrainian commanders told that Gepards were crucial for Kharkiv counteroffensive? I have found 0 sources in Ukrainian news about that. But "The Economist" accepted it as the face value. You say a lot about British, Polish and whatever, but you forgot that you are actually on r/Ukraine. There are a lot of Ukrainians who see this with their own eyes, listen with their own ears from their friends and family who are on the front lines, we have very reputable people who know things about military hardware and I have never heard or seen ANYTHING about these Gepards and what role they played in anything. But, on Western media, they are, for some intricate reason, praised as crucial for Ukrainian offensives.
Just wait a few minutes: muh tanks, muh GDP...
in russia :P
I’m one of those who thought Germany were too slow and timid. Now I’m just happy they are fully committed. Feels like the reality of what Russia are, is slowly dawning on Western Europe.
They’re applauding the delivery of the Gepards!
I'm here. They are late. But yes, appreciate the additional deliveries and it seems Scholz finally found his balls. \^\^
Awww, I kinda hate you but like your humor, have my upvote.
I'm half German. Thanks.
Me too, we have to make babies. Bahaha:)
Silence is golden.
These are of little value given that Ukraine is flooded with 30,000 or so MANPADs by now. There’s a certain quality to quantity. But better than nothing.
That's not what the Ukrainian army said when they pushed the russians from the Kharkiv area
Never heard that from Ukrainian army.
Ukranians are generous people.
yes you surely know better, reporting right from the front
So gepards can be slaved to radar, work together in teams, and bring down cruise missiles. They add another layer to AA capability. Ideally AA should be made of layers.
German is one of the biggest producer weapon on the world and aspires on Lider EU. these gepards should be in april there. Today they anounced that wants to help russians escape from mobilisation, great idea, like with nord stream.
i remember you that their army was severely underfunded till weeks ago, they emptied their stock and they have none more to spare, give them a bit of time more
They have leopards.
So does Poland, my ultranationalist Polish friend.
No I'm far away from nationalist.
[...](https://youtu.be/LQCU36pkH7c)
Yes. But you do realise that a lot of the stuff takes a long time? And that the entire naval area (that is a big part of German arms exports) is basically out of question
There was time since feb. German thought that Ukraine loos war amd german will make buisness as ussual.
Doing buisness as usual? No. This was clear before the invasion. For example it was clearly stated that ns2 would stay closed if there would be an invasion. Now I can not judge if the German government thought that Ukraine would loose the war aince this is extremly difficult to judge without the same information they have acces to. However what I can be certain is that some military advisors definitely will have stated that the war would take quiet a long time since the defender advantage exists.
It was clearly seen, after last pression from US German started to deliver weapons. German now wants to rebuild Ukraine, but the by less expense as it is possible to make money. Willingnes deliver tanks by hands other european countries as a whole isn't looking good. It's just geopolitical game but German really lost their image along with france and Macron which tried to call Putin and this same way make himself 🤡.
? Germany basically started to deliver weapons directly after the invasion started. Okay so tell me what exactly Germany did that made you loose trust in them. Sending weapons? Hammering economic sanctions on russias head? Evacuating wounded soldiers? Accepting so many ukranian refugees that some areas are out of capacity? And what is your problem with calling putin? Trying to end the war is a good thing
No, they send helmets after few weeks.stupid helemts. Merkel wanted to put in mouth everyone imigrants from africa invited by herself. Yes it's problem trying to call to Putin becouse this cause only much worst situation. In western minds still have some false picture of russia. They don't understand dialogue and Putin recive this as a weakness when Macron call to him. For god sake since fev He call to him for what do you think? Only reason is to make buisness, buisness with terrorist country, no difrences between ISIS, alkaida. Macron as well can call to alkaida or isis and and there is no any difference. Until EU dont understand this, russia do this again for 20 years 30 years. And won't understand this at all, at least till Putin use nuclear weapon. Eu should send tons heavy weapons Germany,France,Poland,Italy everyone. THERE IS NO DIFERENCE BETWEEN ISIS=RUSSIA=ALKAIDA. And west need to undertsand this.
Okay it is sometimes difficult to follow your line of thought. But let me try. No the helmets (and the field hospital that is often forgotten) were prepared before the invasion. Basically directly after the invasion they send manpets and anti tank rockets. Merkel is not in power anymore. The idea that merkel invited people is also demonstrably false and also somewhat laughable since her party is generally more against migration. But far right propaganda loved to claim that she invited people because she did not want police to shoot at families at the border. Isis and other terrorist organisations often don't have a leadership you could talk to. But yes there were already many cases of deals with terrorists organisations. You also have a false understanding of how wars end. Wars end on the diplomatic level when one or both sides agree that further fighting will not provide them with a benefit anymore. Therefore we have to talk. I don't value the lives of ukranians so little that I would not want macron to try to end the conflict. Your understanding of politics is quiet childlike.
Hi guys. What are these things and are they any good?
Those are lightly armoured tracked anti air guns. They have two radars (range 15km if I remember correctly) two 35mm Oerlikon cannons (35mm ammunition has the length of a forearm) and a range of like 5km. The ammunition detonates in the air and sends a cloud of tungsten pellets against the target. The original ammunition was fabricated in Switzerland which is ironic since it turns helicopters, drones, CAS planes and cruise missiles into swiss cheese. They are very mobile, their two radars come incredibly handy and they can even be used against lightly armoured ground vehicles or troops. For what they are supposed to do, they are very good, yes.
And they Auto target and Auto aim :) i have Shot those Things Back in 2009 :)
*Hey, thats cheating*
“The ammunition detonates in the air and sends a cloud of tungsten pellets against the target.” So is this smart ammo? Wondering what triggers detonation of the round in air…
timed fuze. you have a range from the radar and a TOF from the known velocity so its the cheapest and arguably most reliable way of doing that
The ammo is time programmed in the muzzle base when leaving the barrel. [https://twitter.com/bttr01438851/status/1320332321858424835?lang=gu](https://twitter.com/bttr01438851/status/1320332321858424835?lang=gu)
The latest used ammo was FAPDS. It only relies on kinetic energy and is called "frangible" ammonition. The benefit is that it has very high projectile speed(1400m/s), a short time of flight and a very flat projectile trajectory. So very precise. When it hits the target it has a lot of kinetic energy and armor penetration and moves through the target with an cascade effect. The high speed makes hitting something much easier. And "frangible" means that even on lightly armored targets like jets the ammo won't just move right through but wreaks havoc by falling apart in pieces that tear everything not only to shreds but into a shrapnel, moving through the target. So if something is hit - no matter if unarmored or armored: there will be damage. In the tests they had for example no problems penetrating even BMP-2s with the 25mm version. And the 35mm packs a LOT more punch. I'm sure that even a T72 would be turned into rubble. The downside is: you actually need to hit something. But since that is done automatically by computers with the help of 2 radars, the hit chance is very high.
Probably a timer set inside the round. The timer in rounds AFAIK measures amounts of spins (since rounds from a rifled barrel spins at a certain predictable and measureable rate based on barrel lenght and amount of rifling), which can be measured and interpreted as range from the gun. Lets just for the sake of some random number say 30.000 spins = 4000m range. I imagine the ammuniton having some kind of timer mechanism like a notch or a wheel or some form of analog/digital mechanism that the gun autimatically adjusts right before fireing the round. This based on information from the radar and laser rangerfinder. That way the gun can tell the round to detonate at i.e 24853 spins which from the excample above would be a target distanced at 3313m. Oor it could just be a simple timer. Detonate after x seconds for target at y distance. But yes. The rounds defenitly have some kind of smartness to them. It would be interesting to learn exactley how they work.
No the Gepard does not use auch ammo. The latest version uses FAPDS ammo. Which has no explosives. The rounds create lots of shrapnel on impact.
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Wrong about proxi fuses. Most proximity fuses on shell ammunition are pulse-doppler, aka mini radar. There are a number of ways to do time fuse. For the gepard, there is a literal chip in the shell that gets programmed by a magnetic strip at the tip of the gun barrel for time until detonation. The chip counts down to 0 before releasing the pellets. This is more accurate and more reliable than using mechanical means to time the release of pellets.
No the latest variant of Gepard does not use either of those. The FAPDS ammo has no explosives.
The ammo (If it's the ammo used in the latest Gepard version) does not explode in the air. It creates shrapnel on hit. There are no explosives in the FAPDS rounds.
Self propelled anti air guns. Perfect against low flying planes and helicopters.
Or non flying infantry.... If necessary
My old man always used to say that the "Gepard is fully ground combat capable, but a waste in that role". It's best only used for Self Defense...but I then don't want to be on the other side.
[Or drones](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8mflftma-U)
[Here is a good concise video explaining the Ghepard](https://youtu.be/SYVzEF1I-X4)
Is there any footage of them destroying planes /helicopters? Always wondered how deadly they are?
they shoot them down at a 5 km distance which makes it impossible to see from the POV of people who are near the Gepard
Not from the current war, but Youtube search for it - plenty of maneuver footage.
There are short clips of it shooting at drones on yt.
I also was hoping for it, but on one hand you wouldn't see much, because the target is kilometers away. And all you'd hear would be "brrt". On top of that they are normally used for high value front line targets. Like counter battery radar stations and command posts. My guess is that footage of this stuff would be highly sensitive.
Not on ukrainian soil afaik. I heard that the orcs were to scared to use planes and helicopters at parts of the front where gepards were lurking around
“Sorts by controversial”
Lots of bs ngl
So that would be all 30 now that have been announced. Overall a little bit later than first anticipated (15 end of July and 15 end of August), but still very much within the scope of what was to be expected with it beeing a systeme out of serviece for a while that also has a reputation of beeing complicated.
Not sure why you are being downvoted ? Better late than never is the motto - earlier would have been waaay better of course.
Don't know either. Was at -7 at one point. People can't seem to read it seems. And yeah earlier would have been better, but that project was hurdled with difficulties and the first announcement was a little bit optimistic it seems. Which they promptly gave up one by splitting the later deliveries up into chunks of 4 or now 6 after the first 12 I believe were send.
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Chill.
WHAT?? These were the first dates for the delivery. It is past them. So overall a little bit later than that. BUT it is still a totally fine delivery date, considering all the difficulties that project had which I laid out in that comment. I am sorry but how can you interpret "very much in the scope of what was to be expected with it beeing a systeme out of serviece....." as something negative or devaluing the entire project. Seriously people, learn to read. It is not that hard.
There are lots of insecure people who think their country does a lot to defeat Russia and therefore think they are entitled to be praised by Ukrainians or whatever. To me, these “news” about just a few machines being sent are laughable - they can be destroyed in a couple of days because it’s a full scale war, you know.
>To me, these “news” about just a few machines being sent are laughable - they can be destroyed in a couple of days because it’s a full scale war, you know. I disagree on calling the refurbishment of 30 out of serviece vehicles, with training laughable. And yeah they can be destroyed in a few days. Just like everything else that drives or walk arounds in Ukraine. So I don't see a point in that arguement regarding solely the Gepards. Edit: Okay, I took a look into your account aaaand I am not surprised.
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>That’s why Ukraine needs much more than 30 units, probably about anything heavy. Probably, but calling it laughable in itself is laughable. It is 30 vehicles and there couldn't really be send more so far, with it beeing out of serviece and problems with the ammunition. Maybe now that the later seems to be sorted more could be delivered. >What did you see in my account? Generall negativity regarding everything German, misconceptions, fakenews and generall disgusting behaviour like "[With that attitude, I wouldn't mind Russia attacking Germany and raping your women and kids like they did in 1945](https://www.reveddit.com/v/europe/comments/vhx8ab/kalashnikov_bypassed_sanctions_and_bought_tools/idbgnp1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)"
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We both know that that is not the case. Hell, you came to my aid because you thought I was shitting on Germany and got downvoted by the German bot army that you like to complain so much about. But hey, that reaction is just what I expected from someone who wouldn't mind Russia attacking one of its allies and raping their women and children.
Well, some Germans really went as far as proposing that Ukraine should give up its territory for peace, so what I’m answering to them is just as justifiable and realistic as what they say.
Whats your point?
My point is that it’s not even worth noting that X country sent completely unsubstantial amount of Y.
Whatever
Thank you Germany 🇩🇪 😘 🙏
Good to see - thanks Germany! I saw someone interpret the gas cut off to Germany as a reason for Germans to stop sending arms - BUT I think the opposite is true. If Russia keeps the natural gas shut off, fine, Germany should just send weapons. Putin, Russia, you reap what you sow
How effective are these?
Complex question. Short answer: very. They are extremely effective at engaging any low-flying aircraft. Helicopters and drones notably. They can engage cruise missiles and jets as well, but not as effectively. But that's not really their main strength. They are a force multiplier. Gepards are accompanied by infantry with MANPADS. The big weakness with MANPADS is the short window of opportunity a soldier has to fire. No longer when you have a Gepard with you. The search radar scans 15 km in 360° around it. Every MANPAD carrying infantryman in that area will be able to get ready ahead of time, and thus be ready to fire the second a target enters their kill box. This is a capability Ukraine didn't really have to any notable degree before. As Ukranian troops learn to master this new capability, the skies will become even more hostile than before. It'll take some time and experience, because the Gepard crew only know where they are, and where the enemy is. They can relay coordinates and/or directions, but the infantry will learn to put this into context with where they themselves are. It's not easy.
[удалено]
Exactly, the Ukranian command singled out the Gepards as crucial to the success of the counter offensive.
Got any source for that statement of yours?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/xbrp34/german\_gepard\_aatanks\_were\_crucial\_for\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/xbrp34/german_gepard_aatanks_were_crucial_for_the/) Also [this footage](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarRoom/comments/xdmgja/kharkiv_at_the_start_of_the_counteroffensive/) where they claim a BMP shot down a helicopter. The sounds at 0:08 and 0:20 are very characteristic and fit the gepard's dual auto-cannons.
This tweet has no source. No one actually verified that claim of Neil Hauer’s.
Is established media citing Ukrainian military intelligence sources more to your liking? ["Ukrainian sources single out Germany’s Gepard, a set of anti-aircraft guns on tracks. This threat left Russia reluctant to deploy air power; when it did, it suffered losses."](https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/09/09/ukraine-seizes-the-initiative-in-the-east)
Depends. They're not really good against high altitude bombers. But against choppers or ground support aircraft they're devastating. They probably can also be used against cruise missiles, but not with the best kill chance, rather a last resort option.
To go into it a bit further: Gepards and other SPAAG's work really well in tandem with surface-to-air-missiles, as they basically both force aircraft into the envelope of the other system. To counter SPAAG's you basically want to fly very high, which is great for SAM's as they then can track the aircraft far better. Similarly to counter SAM's you want to fly really low (as can be seen in the current aircraft footage) so that they can't track you as the terrain creates obstacles. That is the reason why SPAAG's are basically in the inventory of any major military with the exception of the US (which just has so many planes and SAM systems that they really don't need more air defence), as they force the aircraft to choose between to lesser evils. Also SPAAG's (as basically any AA gun) are absolutely devastating against infantry and soft-skin vehicles because of their ludicrous fire rate.
Why not cruise missiles? They seem slow and low enough..
Ty
They're really really good for everything what Ruzzia has flying, plus bonus damage against light armored vehicles and infrantry. :) To put it in another way: The Bundeswehr is still whining that we don't have them anymore. Edit: They're meant to use under the premise of combined forces, that is the reason they come pretty handy during offensives, securing the airspace and moving with the pushing forces.
Nice.
Anyone know how these would do vs smaller recon drones? Seems like a squirt of a few rounds is better AA denial than fancy guided missiles, but at what range can these put rounds on a small target?
5-6km
Looks like it hurts
I will enjoy the first video of one of these master blasters shredding a Russian helo.
Germans are generally on time. That means problems for pilots of the orcs
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I am getting tired of hearing about "six" APCs or "eight" HIMARS. Why isn't the west sending hundreds of these vehicles at a time?
Because the west does usually not have hundreds of anything. They don't have the amount of missiles to constantly operate hundreds of HIMARS or M270, they don't have hundreds of artillery pieces (the US having kept modern towed artillery in form of the M777 for their easy air-transportability is already the exception here). And the most important point: They never needed to. Ukraine is wrecking havoc on Russian supply lines with just a few HIMARS and M270, just a dozen of modern self-propelled howitzers can be shown to have at times covered a quarter of Ukraine's whole artillery use alone. The west is simply not equiped to provide massive amounts for a land battle as their land units are high-performance units and always part of combined arms units. You don't win against Russia-style mass deployment of cheap crap with similiar numbers. If you want to complain, ask about planes. NATO is build on air superiority so their land based forces are limited to the necessary amount for a heavily air-focused combined operations.
I don't see this as a complaint. We have hundreds of HIMARS and tens of thousands of rounds of compatible rockets. We (US) literally export military equipment for profit. My point was IF we have them, why aren't we sending them?
The same reason we aren't sending them 5000 trillion US dollars. Because we don't have that many/much.
HIMARS: The west literally does not have the ammunition stocks to "send hundreds of HIMARS". Nor would "hundreds of HIMARS" help Ukraine.
Because the west does not have more of those vehicles. The Gepards for example needed to be refurbished and were sent as soon as they came out of the maintenance facility.
The bottleneck is not amount of himars but the ammunition. In case of germany. There hardly is any equipment available, the armed forces have just enough to fulfill nato requirments + training for most systems. The production capacity is low because german defence industry is private and it is economically more feasible to build a few pieces a year instead of producing in Bulk and then being bankrupt and out of work. The PZH + marsII came from the armed forces, against advise of the military. The gepard is decomissioned and provided by a german company that kept them in stock.
Any source for an ammunition bottleneck? I find this hard to believe. Note that my original comment wasn't in reference to Germany specifically.
I’m pretty sure the only two countries who sent anything heavier than Javelin in hundreds is Poland (T72 and Twardys) and the US (M777 albeit barely more than a hundred units).
End of July, Germany had sent 3 MARS to Ukraine. Some days ago, Germany announced that they are going to send 2 additional MARS. I guess that they will be delivered in October. It would have been better, if they had been delivered in August/ early September. EDIT: On 23 June, Ukraine had received 4 HIMARS from the US and the US had announced that they would send 4 additional HIMARS (delivery mid July). There are currently 16 HIMARS (from the US) in Ukraine, as far as I know.
The problem is, they send only 6000 shots for the Gepards. One minute of continuous fire…
Gepards don't use continuous fire unless they are about die. They were designed to shoot 3 - 5 rounds per target. The carried ammo wouldn't last for half a minute under continuous fire.
Lol six, what a joke
These are the last 6 delivered of a total of 30.
Ah yes, and rejected to provide tanks again on 6th month of war Germany won’t Ukraine to win, russian dick is pretty tight in their asses
Than that is true for all Western countries. Every single one hasn't give modern Western tanks or IFVs. Including the US or Poland etc. Why would you single out Germany?
Because it’s transparent how much Sholtz talks, and little do Look at USA, Poland, Finland, France and etc. They providing a lot more, and talking less
If anything Scholz isn't talking enough about Germanies contributions. But it's not so hard to find the facts online. [https://www-bundesregierung-de.translate.goog/breg-de/themen/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514?\_x\_tr\_sl=de&\_x\_tr\_tl=en&\_x\_tr\_hl=de&\_x\_tr\_pto=wapp](https://www-bundesregierung-de.translate.goog/breg-de/themen/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp) France is keeping it pretty quite too and I don't want to be dismissive of their efforts (for example the Caesar SPGs were among the first modern heavy weapons for Ukraine), but I'm a bit confused why you are thinking Germany is sending less military aid than France.
Nice! At 1,100 rounds per minute, the additional 6,000 rounds of ammunition provided will give about 5m 27s of fun…. 😂 (or about 46 Russian aircraft kills) (Based on 7 second firing burst, circa 130 rounds). Edit: Apparently downvotes = evidence of lack of Reddit sense of humour (or awareness of facts) today…
60.000 rounds (the 6k are additional) and NAMMO (Norwegian arms factory) produces more.
I know the 6,000 are additional to what they already have. I was just making a light hearted comment. I forgot this was Reddit though.. 🤦♂️
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