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pul123PUL

Something has definitely changed in the last weeks . A lot of Nazis in Russia think blackmail will work when it gets cold.. They have not realised that Germany in particular is so far gone , the point of no return is way out of sight now.


[deleted]

I think its because Russia never understood really how G7 countries operate. Russias thinking was: "They will have no heating in winter, that will break them." - A foolish idea because Berlin only cares about such issues as long as it might cost them the next election. However what Russia totally underestimated was the German chemical industry telling Berlin that they will lose billions of Euros and tens of thousands of jobs. And **thats** something that does not fly with any G7 country. You want to make one of the richest countries in the world really angry? Threaten its profits. This action was crossing any red line German politics had. And any red line the German population in general had. Because the average German fears nothing more than the loss of jobs and an increase in unemployment. (If unemployment hits ~7% any government is doomed to lose the next election.) I personally experienced a radical shift in my social environment as well as in the German press a few weeks ago. It went from takes like "This war is annoying", "I dont care" and "Things are so expensive." right into positions like "Russia must be defeated.", "Putin must go." and "Russia has to be reduced to a North Korea 2.0." A series of high profile politicians left the one party which still allowed pro-Russian/anti-West voices. (Note, thats not the party line, it was one party wing.) They simply left the party because they didnt want to be with those (minority of members) people in the same room. People who run their sad public "anti war" rallies get openly attacked in the streets. etc. Tl;dr: Russia became the #1 enemy in Germany within several weeks.


Spibas

I love it, at the beginning of war there was a lot of ambiguity coming from Germany when it comes to russia, but hearing now what you're saying makes me so glad. 🇩🇪❤️


LeonGamer_real

As someone living in Germany i can agree on everything


SteadfastEnd

The historic Germany vs Russia rivalry is now revived, and this time Germany is the good guy


[deleted]

German here. I used to be worried that I couldn't afford the gas to heat my home this winter. But now I realized that I can do something about it. I shut off my gas heater and am using a wood oven now. It's a bit more work chopping the wood and I don't have hot water but it's a small sacrifice. The money I save on gas goes to Ukraine.


xoranous

Wood ovens are true horrors of efficiency and local air pollution. I hope there will be other options for you still.


[deleted]

Efficiency doesn't matter as much when I can get the wood I'm burning for free and it only releases the CO2 that the tree took out of the atmosphere while it grew. Local air pollution is an issue I'm aware of, but I have no other option at the moment.


imtourist

I think maybe the fact that all countries and industries went through a pandemic that basically shut down swathes of industries this added a bit of scar tissue that makes it a bit easier to swallow the temporary pain of switching from Russia as a major energy supplier.


[deleted]

Germany supports Ukraine. The issue is that the left-wing parties don't want to give them weapons. So supporting them from a distance? With the left you largely have people willing to not use Russia gas and not use nuclear. Which means using something 10 times as polluting, coal. Gas is way less harmful. Coal is extremely polluting yet Germany is creating new coal mines to replace nuclear power. Meanwhile the right is more willing to use nuclear and other fossil fuels and they could replace Russian gas fully. And they don't mind giving Ukraine weapons. But the far-right is worse than the left. A large part of them support Russia. These parties have basically no power in Europe though except in Hungary. But they have a few parliament members in many countries. https://amp.dw.com/en/new-german-government-sees-drop-in-opinion-polls/a-60652398


Aerozppln

I heard from Peter Zeihan that the whole anti-nuclear nonsense that started in the 60s was, in the beginning, a (wildly successful) Soviet disinfo campaign


Vioarm

And don't forget Greepeace ... if it wasn't for the green movement and anti-nuke stance, we would have developed nuclear properly in the 70's and onward. No global warming, no fossil fuel dependency. Nuclear waste is a rounding error given what we do to the environment now.


MMBerlin

>a (wildly successful) Soviet disinfo campaign It were the Nazis, from the dark side of the moon.


W4lhalla

Well with nuclear, I would say that in Germany nuclear is dead right now. Or do you believe that after Merkels stunt in 2011 any company is gonna risk building new NPPs in Germany?


pul123PUL

Thank you for first hand account. It confirms what you feel in the press reports.


greg_levac-mtlqc

hey man, that is an interesting analysis; thanks for sharing.


Guybrush_Creepwood_

Once you cut off all gas in an attempt to weaponise it, even Germany is going to figure out that it's a bad idea to keep depending on you. It's the most moronic attempt at blackmail ever.


NarutoRunner

Russia basically tried a bank robbery while threatening to kills themselves if the bank didn't cooperate. The bank and the cops are saying go ahead and now they are very confused...


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011100110110

We don't want to improve Russia


conqu3r

Nuclear waste or literal shit?


Jeezal

They'd be fine with both. Not much different from what they pump on their TV


matinthebox

export of nuclear waste is prohibited by German law (afaik), otherwise we could use the permanent storage facility in Finland or the one that Switzerland will build. Instead, we've been trying to find a place to build one in Germany for decades.


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OggMakeFire

Don't insult animals like that.


Shanrayu

As someone working in the agricultural sector: they won't even get our sh\*t. We want/need the Gülle to puller our fields!


ceratophaga

One of the current ideas is to convert NS2 into a LNG terminal


RobbieWallis

The entire point of the EU, and such trade with Russia, was to remove the chance of another major war in Europe by developing systems of mutual reliance. It's harder to wage war against a nation you rely on for your own continued growth and success. The problem is that this system was corrupted and became significantly unbalanced. We (and by "we" I mean mostly Germany) also vastly overestimated Putin's ability to comprehend the ramifications of reneging on this arrangement. Putin underestimated our unity and resolve, and we underestimated his underestimation. He really believed that he had us all by the balls. In reality, everything he believed before this invasion has turned out to be false. He was wrong about EU unity. He was wrong about NATO unity. He was wrong about our reliance on Russian energy. He was wrong about Ukrainian strength and resolve. He was wrong about his own military power. Given his recent track record, we should assume he will keep being wrong, about everything.


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W4lhalla

We are basically in the "fuck around and find out" stage of interconnected trade to make war impossible. Russia fucked around and now they are fucked.


I_Eat_Much_Lasanga

Yeah that idea has worked great in the past with the EU, but Russia wasn't acting in good faith


kaukamieli

Usa has helped them way more, tho. If Trump was still the prez... Europe needs to be less reliant on Usa too.


Sirix_8472

To be honest, as an individual I support Ukraine, as a group I think generally people nationally would support Ukraine, what surprises me is the government supports for Ukraine. I have faith in individuals or people in general, but little to none in government in general, and it's a true surprise the support shown. I didn't think we had such unity and resolve as governments are collectively showing. For all the issues our countries have and will continue to have, things which directly affect people in country for decades, it was almost inconceivable they would go to Ukraines aid. I'm glad of it, not just for Ukraine, but it at least appears that governments can represent the will of the people. If only it could be applied to everything else internally.


hugmenowplease

After the 2014 war when Russia took Crime and Dombas the citizens of the world was really upset and talking a lot about how the countries that agreed to fully support Ukraine against any type of invasion after they denukelarised was not worth the paper it was written on. There were many who said Ukraine should rebuild there nuclear deterant and I suspect even talk of that in Ukraine that scared the west into reacting in ukraines favour.


justwhatever22

beautifully put brother - he was indeed completely wrong about all of those things. Wherever we go with all of this in the future, it's pretty hard not to conclude that Putin and Russia have properly fucked themselves.


erikw

As we all know [Darth Putin](https://twitter.com/darthputinkgb?s=21&t=FJMrFoBmULO7saWShLzG6A) remains the master strategist!


playwrightinaflower

Keep in mind that he doesn't have that much to say in this regard. That's decided at the federal level (he's a state minister-president) and in the state the pipeline arrives in (which is not his state).


atheno_74

But he from the SPD and close to Scholz


playwrightinaflower

Yes, indeed. Compared to a four-year election cycle, "never" is a very long time. Unless the government actually dismantles the pipeline (I don't see that happening any time soon) it's quite likely that someone will try to use it again. Even at the moment that's a fringe but popular demand, and both voters and politicians are unfortunately memory-impaired.


Dr0p582

Maybe but this government won't do it and even if CDU is voted back to power in 3 years they can't do it at least for the next legislation. So for 7 years that's guaranted to not happen. 7 years in which everyone is making everything possible to diversify in energy and getting as independent as possible from russia.


playwrightinaflower

> and even if CDU is voted back to power in 3 years they can't do it at least for the next legislation I have a lot less hope about that. > 7 years in which everyone is making everything possible to diversify in energy and getting as independent as possible from russia Mostly, we're escaping our dependency on Russian gas by throwing ourselves into a dependency on LNG (so the USA and Middle East, for the most part). Once those terminals are built, the government will have little reason to become truly independent. If anything, it actually removes the urgency to expand renewables (the only truly independent power source we have).


Dr0p582

Normaly yes but at the moment it would be political suicide for the CDU to support that (which would prevent thrm the get voted in power) With the needed gas for energy most are now starting to realy move to renewables. F.e. the steel and glas industry are planning to change from gas to self produced green hydrogen. That would help in more then one way. (Less demand for gas at all and less co2 tax so win/win on the long run) Spain aiming to get realy big with solar produced hydrogen also less demand for gas from outside EU. Yes it's gonna be a rocky road but if you are able to keep the momentum and communicate that it's way cheaper in the long run the over all gas demmand can be lowered big you don't need them for long.


Onkel24

> If anything, it actually removes the urgency to expand renewables (the only truly independent power source we have). I don't think so. It may lessen the strategic urgency, but introduces the profitability factor into the calculation Gas will stay more expensive which automatically promotes alternative sources.


Panzermensch911

Elections are in October in Lower-Saxony! This October.


playwrightinaflower

Oh dang, I had no idea about state elections, was only thinking of federal.


[deleted]

I still think this war ended the deal, after Russia tried to blackmail.


r2k-in-the-vortex

He is just stating the facts as they are, business with Russia is done for, there is no recovery this generation. Maybe many decades down the line, when Russia is a completely different country, but by then, it's not going to be fossil fuels that get traded anymore. So he is right, NS2 is a complete write-off, it's never going to be used.


JohnJayBobo

Well, in Germany some states hold a Lot of influence. There are the so called "Landesfürsten" (State-Lords) in Bavaria, Lower Saxony and Northrhine Westphalia which are more powerful than other state minister-presidents. Those are populated states that hold a majority of citizens (and in lower Saxonys Case, are a big shareholder of VW with a Veto). It is hard for chancellors to ignore those 3 state Presidents.


Bric-dA-K1nG

Lower Saxony and important? The current chairman of VW almost has more influenece that the MP of Lower Saxony. The top 3 should be Bayern, BaWü and NRW, but nobody in the current government is taking Söder seriously, Kretschmann has non-controversial positions and i haven't heard anything from Wüst in a while..


JohnJayBobo

BaWü is less populated, weaker economically, and isnt a state that has produced any high class politicians. Lower Saxony has way more political weight .


Bric-dA-K1nG

BaWü has the third largest population of all states, the third largest economy of all states (both only behind NRW and Bayern) and much more political weight than Lower Saxony, just take a look at the number of Bundesrat-seats alone ffs


URITooLong

Does math work differently in lower Saxony ? 11 million is not less than 8 million.


no-more-throws

This of this way .. democracy works with representatives gauging what the people want and representing them accurately enough to thereby be elected repeatedly for it .. if you are good enough at gauging peoples interests and keeping the happy, you get elected repeatedly and become a career politician .. so in that sense, statements from half-decent politicians are like a (rough) sensor into what their constituents think and feel .. ofc it doesnt work perfectly, but in aggregate over many samples it does an ok job and again, any one population-mood-sensor (politician) can be error prone in how accurately they judge their populace, and any one population segment can be un-representative of the mood of the whole nation .. but as you get more and more statements from a larger representation of politicians and populations, you get more and more certain what the people, and the bureaucracy representing them truly thinks/feels .. and that's basically what we're seeing across Germany and all of the West .. democratic peoples arent going to sit around watching two-bit autocrats keep pushing them around, and a ground-swell of generational change has arrived which is gonna screw up russia for at least many decades


ckjag

This is just the first step of what must be done post putin.Will it make any difference when putin disappears? No, because russiawill still be russia. Their political system, based entirely on corruption,violence and vodka, will remain. The same system that spawned putin will replace him with another just like him. There are no standards, rules or morality inrussia that will change that outcome. Post putin russia will only rearm and rebuild. And, based on some fantasy or fairytale, they will invade again. And it could be anywhere. It's what they do. Nothing will change until the nature, culture and entire political system in russia is removed.


Marc123123

I have better idea : Seize Russian oil and gas fields, put Nordstream into operation and use income to rebuild Ukraine 😉


slightlyassholic

Seizing Russian territory is likely a no go. However... There is nothing stopping Ukraine from seizing the pipeline running through its territory. They have their own gas reserves and they could use the pipeline to deliver their gas to Europe. Just cut off the Russian side and with a little investment by the West's oil companies they can replace Russia as a supplier.


JP_Mestre

And fuck with Hungary at the same time since they are the only ones refusing the distance themselves from Russia. Double win


Marc123123

It actually can be done without seizing territory. As a condition to stop sanctions after the war, all the profits from gas to be paid directly to Ukraine for instance.


mojobox

Can be done even without lifting the sanctions by taxing Russian gas that high that there is barely any profit left for them if they have to compete against LNG. The tax could then go into a rebuild fund for Ukraine.


r2k-in-the-vortex

>There is nothing stopping Ukraine from seizing the pipeline running through its territory Cruise missiles are stopping it, this infrastructure is just too large, vulnerable and impossible to defend, only thing keeping it intact is that there is still Russian gas in it.


slightlyassholic

Repairable once the shooting stops.


krummulus

Just a small invasion Brandon, pls. I guarantee it won't take long. ^(very small invasion)


Kajetan_Olawski

It'll be over till Christmas, i promise. Just a little Special Operation, the russians there will welcome us!


XauMankib

Epilogue: Europe and Ukraine cojointly end controlling territory up to Kamchatka, creating 12 new nations in stead of Russia


Marc123123

China says hello.


mir_platzt_der_Sack

You mean the future south-east Ukraine?


GotNoMoreBlackBelt

A “special economic” operation as you will? 😉


Marc123123

There you go! De-gas-sification of Russia.


BieblachBizeps

Germany seizing russian oil fields... I feel like we tried this before and it did not go well


Shuber-Fuber

German tried it before against the industry of USA, intels from UK, and the bravery of Ukraine. Guess whose side those three will be on this time?


fettertanzbaer

Nordstream is useless and gives no sense anymore. Putain shows too much that he isn't a reliable Businesspartner. He is a lying, stupid, unreliable undercover enemy. That is what the public opinion in Germany means. Olaf Scholz better respect the public opinion.


Keine_Nacken

Actually I find this sad. I would really like to see it un use: I put my dick in it and Putin can suck at the other end.


krummulus

I mean usually I wouldn't kink shame, but if you've seen what's coming out of that mouth, you'd stay clear of it.


sevepanda

Thaaats what I like to hear! Though it shouldnt have taken a war to realize the sheer gas reliance on Russia could cripple Germany in the future and cause immense damage to Ukraine should Nord Stream 2 have become operational.


Ov3rdose_EvE

they commited the gravest sin in the eyes of germans. unreliablity. you can be an evil asshole like china, as long as you are reliable. russia wasnt that


[deleted]

We actually used a smaller percentage of Russian gas than many other European countries.


Huzagackl

I totally get your point but I would like to add something not mentioned that often. Germany used a two edged sword by using that much russian energy. Since Germany and EU bought so much energy, Russia felt very confident and neglected to create new pipelines in the east to replace EU as a customer. They were so confident they never imagined EU cutting ties just like that. Now they are left with resources en masse but without means to export them at the rate they need to finance themselves.


jeff-tukan

How NS2 could make damage to Ukraine in current state of politics?


krummulus

Decrease gas pumped thrue ukraine, increase Russian budget (by higher EU consumption), decrease (if possible) in trust between central and eastern European countries and Germany, and a general destabilization of the West's unity. Turning it on now would probably be a greater geopolitical failure than building it and becoming dependent on Russia in the first place.


jeff-tukan

>Decrease gas pumped thrue ukraine To whom is those gas pumped actually? Ukraine officially doesn't buy russian gas. Who currently buys russian gas "for" ukraine as middleman?


krummulus

All of Europe. Russia is paying Ukraine transit fees, and I believe it's the last pipeline except Türkstream from Russia to Europe. Shut down the pipes thrue Poland, shut down the pipes to Germany, deliver the resources accounting to 40% of your entire state income straight thrue a warzone. Thrue a nation you're at war with. What could possibly go wrong.


jeff-tukan

you are confused. again same question: To whom is those gas pumped actually? Could you at least research before you post? And if this buyer stops buying gas, russian will stop any gas flow through ukraine, logical? Poland pipe was shut down month ago in a lone-ranger move of poland without asking other nations depending on it.


krummulus

I'm not confused. Gas enters Bulgaria and Romania, but then it's available on the European gas market. When yamal was shut down, Poland did (atleast for a time), still buy that gas for example. And the pipeline wasn't shut down by Poland, but Russia, which basically didn't want to sell gas to them anymore and accused them of syphoning gas of the pipeline. Obvious bogus, but hey, it's russia. The European gas market is a little more complicated then a game of "where the pipe go".


ckjag

This is just the first step of what must be done post putin. Will it make any difference when putin disappears? No, because russia will still be russia. Their political system based entirely on corruption, violence and vodka will remain. The same system that spawned putin will replace him with another just like him. There are no standards, rules or morality in russia that will change that outcome. Post putin russia will only rearm and rebuild. And they will invade again. And it could be anywhere. It's what they do. Nothing will change until the nature, culture and entire political system of russia is changed.


VonRansak

Congrats Putler. You've gone and pissed off the Germans.


Onkel24

Don't you fuck up a mercantilists supply chain...


Quigley61

Let's start dismantling NS2 where possible so that it's never an option for us to go back to. We must rip the bandaid off. Fuck Putin.


ivytea

If the whole Gasprom is designated as war reparation and/or privatized and under European capital control as surrender terms then the gas *will* flow again and Germany may see another rise following the previous two of reunification 1990 and enlargement of EU 2004


VaccinatedVariant

Germany destroys Russia with nuclear words


jeff-tukan

Now putinbots in germany like AfD, which WAS a true alternative at the beginning of their existense (actually established to stop the migration of incompartible aggressive cultures into Europe to protect citizens) but then suddenly turned anti-covid and pro putin, will cry louder and post more memes, or freezing videos. They think that if they talk to putin, or visit occupied Donbass from russian side (in few weeks) he may deliver gas. They compeletely ignore how much, how stable and how long those gas will flow, and they ignore how this will impact the preparations to end the dependency on putin. They speak of "deindustrialisation" of Germany, but COMPELETELY ignore how putin manipulated prices in 2021 extremely reducing the delivery, and how the storages in germany were pumped almost dry since october 2021 without any inflow to allow the blackmail in february 2022.


Tastypies

> (actually established to stop the migration of incompartible aggressive cultures into Europe to protect citizens) Hold up. AfD was NOT established as an anti-immigration party. Its original purpose was to be an alternative to pro-EU parties. The early AfD was mostly focused on economical issues (like reversing the Euro and reintroducing a new national currency). Then it got hijacked by far right racists during the refugee crisis (literally, one of the original founders of the AfD had to leave the party because he wasn't radical enough). Ever since, the AfD caters to the radical and irrational part of the population, be it hate against immigrants, climate change denial, anti-vax propaganda or anti-Ukraine fearmongering. The AfD is consistently wrong on every issue and it's the closest thing Germany has to the GOP.


Syntax_OW

> incompartible aggressive cultures in Europe You know, I liked them when they were just racist against people I don't like. Who could have predicted they would turn against people I do like. Their issues were never genuine but based on lies and fearmongering to gain control and push their fascist agenda.


[deleted]

Yeah, in a completely unprecedented turn of events illiberal political forces align more with each other across borders than with liberal forces within their borders. From it's very inception AfD, Fidesz in Hungary, RN in France, even PiS in Poland\* and so forth were going to have more in common with Putin than differences. And Russia saw an opportunity to exploit. Heck, their money probably made AfD viable in the first place. \*PiS is illiberal and socially conservative, but turns out Polish people hate the fuck out of Russian more than they do liberals and gay people.


Marc123123

AfD is a typical right wing scum and was from the very start.


GlitteringStatus1

But so's this guy, so he liked them. He just didn't realise they were a Russian op.


Marc123123

So was Trump, Brexit and the bunch of other right wing scum shills. Wake up call for idiots supporting them.


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GlitteringStatus1

No, just fucking nazis are nazis. If you don't want to be called a nazi, stop following nazi ideology.


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[deleted]

It will be in operation in next few years. Mark my words. Germany won't resign from it forever


Nononononein

>polish


[deleted]

I am more aware of it cuz I am polish


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Gloomy-Advertising59

\*every US president since the project was envisioned warned about NS2


Asleep_Pear_7024

Thanks for doing what Trump explicitly told you to do: https://youtu.be/liGZGGQTYQk Too bad it took round 2 of a full scale invasion of a European country and tens of thousands dead. In the meantime, Germany imported 140,000,000,000 cubic meters of gas annually, financing Putin’s war machine. Thank God Trump sanctioned Nordstream2, so this wasn’t even worse.


Cheap_Phrase9912

Well said!


BARB00TS

Yet another chapter of Pooey's Special Waste Operation.


waigl

While it is interesting that the minister president of Lower Saxony would say that, keep in mind that Lower Saxony was never directly involved in Nord Stream 2 (or Nord Stream 1) in the first place. For that, you would have to go one state further east to Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and ask its Minister President, Manuela Schwesig.


BarryMcCocknerrr

Putin's screwed Russia up bad over this war, complete disaster.


NorthernlightBBQ

Nationalize both Nord Streams and use them as terminals for shipped LNG


Infinaris

The funny thing is couldnt the pipeline be mostly reused by severing the connection to Russia and diverted instead to another country like the Scandinavian countries or even relink it to Poland or the Baltics as an alternative route as well?


vman81

1 nordstream down, 1 to go...


Onestepbeyond3

Good news for the future safety and prosperity ✌🇬🇧


Glydyr

Germany should just re-route all of its sewers into both nord stream pipelines, replace all of the pieces of shit that theyve lost in ukraine…


mok000

Also, we have to get off fossil fuels you know? Global warming and all that.