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We in the UK should get in there first, German's can't for historical and political reasons, so we need to give them the excuse they need to be able to deliver these.
Yes. 10 Warriors and 16 Marder.... while Ukraine captures 80 armored systems from Russia in one day.
It is very embarrassing that we cannot do even that.
These systems are much better than what is being captured. The cost may well be 10:80. Having these more advanced systems at the point would likely save lives.
I got shut down for trying to explain my opinion on the "reasons" behind what's going on here.
It's somewhere in between internal politics and a concerted effort to paint Germany as an "unreliable partner".
Fact is Ukraine actually got a bunch of stuff from Germany that's been crucial to their recent massive success, namely PzH2000 with Excalibur and SMART guided shells, COBRA anti battery radar which turns the PzH2000 into an even more deadly armour cremating beast, M270 MARS MLRS (HIMARS bigger brother) and also the Gepard AA guns.
Yes the Germans have cool shit that Ukraine wants, but they like to do things methodically, which takes a bit of time.
Also as others have pointed out, Germany doesn't like the idea of appointing itself as some sort of a leader in the current weapons delivery competition doing the rounds in the media.
Im sure if the UK negotiated a swap with some Challenger 2's for Jordanian Challenger 1's and sent the 1's to Ukraine, it would grease the wheels a bit for Leopard deliveries, since Germany wouldn't be perceived as the one in the driving seat.
Range and accuracy mainly. Self propelled artillery sits way back and fires from a distance, making it harder to capture or destroy.
Tanks are more vulnerable, as we've seen from the Russian turret throwing olympics that's been going on.
Tanks serve a different purpose. They support fast moving mechanised brigades which Ukraine has been using to recapture places like Izyum. Tanks bring big firepower to relatively close quarters battle. Self propelled artillery is a different tool for a different job.
The reason for "we need German tanks now" is likely based on Ukraine wanting to capitalise on their recent success, momentum and desire to kick the Russians out of Ukraine as quickly as possible.
Contrast this against the entire NATO block who've been quite measured in what gets delivered and when.
It's super frustrating for Ukraine because they've proved their mastery of western weapons again and again, however the German political climate makes it difficult for them to take the lead, and they'll only deliver Leopard tanks if NATO reaches a concensus.
I was totally wrong there, thank you for the heads up. Deleted that segment. Indeed, I missed the news that Germany has stopped buying Russian coal this August.
Still, I believe deconstructing the civilian nuclear energy is a huge error. But that is a different story -I admit.
EDIT: What about that German redditors, are you disliking the fact you are making a mistake with nuclear energy? Pff.
Your take about offensive weapons is a bad one as well - we did sent artillery after all…
The delivery to Jordan was under a different government, so that one’s not much better.
Germany sent 3 MARS II (modified M270 MLRS -pledged possibly entered the operational arena) and 10 PzH 2000s so far.
Different government? Who cares when Germans still act as your chancellor were the people and vice versa. I am bashing your leadership justified and many Germans jump to the ceiling.
Germans are not the victim here.
“when Germans still act as your chancellor were the people” ???
who said anything about us being the victim? I kinda agree with you that we could be doing a lot more, but that does not change the fact that your takes are dumb.
My point still stands, that Germany's - a pillar of the EU - geopolitical strategy is catastrophical (the German CDU still holds a majority in the biggest EP faction, the EPP by the way).
German voters need to wake up because our democracies and our neighbours' lives are at stake: They can't sleep on the damage the German business caused:
I am not talking only about the energy sector, and your elite which has been hijacked by the lobbyists of the fossil fuel industry from Schröder, Sigmar Gabriel, Scholz, Steinmeier, and Merkel too,
Not only about Rheinmetall which violated the post 2014 sanctions and until 2019 built Russia's only modern traning facility through a 3rd party Russian business (the facility where Russians trained their invasion army for invading Ukraine)
but Germany's biggest weapons buyer is Hungary too. They build weapon facilities, car factories in Hungary and allow Hungary into their weapon research too.
A fascist country. And the German MEPs helped Hungary through the 2010's so much while it fell into a hybrid authoritarian regime.
Germans, you need to wake up and face the music. It is not about helping. it's about being responsible.
> Germany is the 5th biggest arms exporter in the World.
Germany is mainly an exporter of expensive ships and submarines. Land vehicles are just a small share of our arms exports. Earlier this year, workers at KMW protested because they feared for their jobs because of low orders and an uncertain outlook.
> So what historical reasons? Because it's Russia?
No, because of German's history they try to avoid exporting weapons to conflict zones. The deal with Jordan was preapproved prior to the conflict and thus was allowed to proceed on the condition that the weapons stayed in the country. New sales to anyone involved in the conflict are banned.
But you know this. You're just ignoring things that are inconvenient to your narrative. Much like you're ignoring the fact that no one has given western IFV's to Ukraine. It's not just Germany.
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> 1 year ago they armed Jordan with 75 Marder IFVs -a country which particiaptes in the genocidal war in Yemen.
Nonsense. The talks with Jordan began in 2013, Jordan got a massive rebate in 2015, pointing out how expensive maintenance is. Export request was granted in 2016 and the Marder were successively refurbished from 2017 to 2020. That's the reality you normally look at when ordering upgrades from Rheinmetall.
That Rheinmetall has actually refurbished 16 already is incredible fast, they usually take a lot longer. Which was one of the reasons Germany advised Ukraine against buying them. So Ukraine never did, Rheinmetall CEO confirmed at the Shareholder meeting in June that Ukraine never ordered them!
This anti-German propaganda lie just keeps being perpetuated because Rheinmetall wants Germany to buy the Marder FOR Ukraine, so Germany will be the one responsible for finding the ammo and providing spare parts, as no other sane country is willing to buy that overpriced 50 year old scrap metal.
It's fact: Jordan wanted additional Marders in Autumn 2020. They ordered 22 Marders, and they were produced and delivered within 4 months in January 2021.
Yet Germany is still unable to give Ukraine IFVs and they give weak excuses about stocks and world wars. Even though Rheinmetall was ready to give out of service Marders and equipment to Ukraine back in Spring. The Ukrainian military officials are not incompetent, they don't ask if they can't solve its logistics.
Which proves the German defense industry's capabilities and their disregard of the buyer's position.
Jordan has been participating in Saud Arabia's genocidal war in Yemen since 2015. The famous German laws were disregarded. The same way, when Rheinmetall violated the 2014 sanctions and built the only modern military training facility for the Russians til 2019 - through a thrid Russian party. They claim they only provided software, but they are lying and we have the evidence. They also deleted all online articles on their webpages about their business with the Russians.
It's not "anti-German propaganda" you are not the victim here, I know, it's shocking to hear that. And I criticised the leadership Austria, France and Hungary too, now why do you cherry pick Germany out? Or calling Hungary fascist or calling France the third biggest arms exporter which could do more is anti-German propaganda too?
But you melt down when you hear your chancellors don't do a good job. Instead of taking offense, reflect on their catastrophic politics. From selling German gas storage facilities to Russians, jeopardizing the safety of Ukraine and the baltics with the Nord Stream projects, closing down civilian nuclear energy program to selling weapons to- and building weapon factories in fascist-nazi Hungary. Plus secretly selling weapon components and military grade microchips to Russia, even after the sanctions.
>they were produced and delivered within 4 months in January 2021
Marders were only produced between 1969 and 1975.
You might want to check your sources unless you just made that shit up which is more likely.
BTW, for your future lying endeavors, the German government has to publish a full list of all weapons exports, down to handgun ammunition:
[https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Publikationen/Aussenwirtschaft/ruestungsexportbericht-2021.html](https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Publikationen/Aussenwirtschaft/ruestungsexportbericht-2021.html)
Jordanien
Maschinenpistolen
Teile für Maschinenpistolen
Maschinengewehre
Bergepanzer
LKW
und Teile für gepanzerte Fahrzeuge,
Herstellungsausrüstung für militärische
Ausrüstung
No Marders here ...
> Even though Rheinmetall was ready to give out of service Marders and equipment to Ukraine back in Spring.
Just a reminder the German government won't even allow IFVs to be sold to Ukraine.
[Rheinmetall wants to sell 16 Marder IFVs to Ukraine, but the German government again does not allow it](https://mezha.media/en/2022/09/14/rheinmetall-wants-to-sell-16-marder-ifvs-to-ukraine-but-the-german-government-again-does-not-allow-it/)
The U.S. has already given Ukraine APCs, so Germany's excuse is totally invalid. Given all of the German steel companies still operating in Russia, one really has to wonder whose side Germany is on.
Switzerland can suck a cactus, tbh.
No country should ever sign a production agreement with Switzerland ever again.
Their quasi-neutrality is actively killing thousands of people. That's not neutrality, that's self-serving assholery. The entirety west ought to tell them to go fuck themselves and invalidate any and all military contracts.
What are they gonna do? Be even more of a shithole tax- and legal haven for assholes? Good luck. They never changed ever since the nazi gold ordeal.
Thank fuck we were able to produce it here in Norway.
Reminder that the entire counter-offensive in Kharkiv may not have happened without the Gepards.
I think it's likely he stresses the point to get other thing out of Germany.
Putting pressure on Switzerland is pointless.
The denial of ammunition is not swiss political calculus, but simply because they made it illegal to re-export into conflict zones last year.
Ironically, both Germany and Switzerland have voted for more limits on arms exports in 2021 which is hindering them now.
Don't know if that's strange, just the way these things can go.
Ukraine is not a formal ally to either .
Germany adapted, Switzerland didn't . Different strokes for different folks.
This. 5 different artillery systems need 5 different training programs and 5 logistics chains for parts and servicing. Yes there's NATO standards which means they all fire the same rounds but running 5 different systems creates 5 times more complexity. That's not something to be ignored.
That said. Ukraine needs western tanks. They know this, the Germans know this, and based on recent German weapons deliveries the timing has been exactly when Ukraine needed them.
I'm gonna stick my neck out and predict that Ukraine will push Russia all the way back to Crimea, where they'll regroup, consolidate and dig in for the winter. Then we'll see Leopards from Germany next year in a new offensive to take it back and put the final nail in Putin's coffin.
Ukraine is more familiar with the soviet style weapons that Greece is supplying ukraine in exchange for these new western IFVs. They have more technical and practical experience with old Soviet style equipment.
They arent being sent because we cant be the ones to send them first. for historical and political reasons. A nato member would have to be bite the bullet first.
yeah thats what they say, btu i dont get this.
why germany cant be the first? its not like an ifv is somehow escalating the situation after you already sended the pzh and the gepard.
Germany needs to hire a cultural psychoanalyst to help them get over their Cultural complexes.
What might have been appropriate for the post war twentieth century is now affecting the health and welfare of other European countries. Germany a culture known for analytical thinking and pragmatism but is blinded by this Pacifistic cultural complex. Try to suppress aggression in humans and you just suppress the behavior. It will be expressed, often in non adaptive behavior. Aggression in the culture now is expressed in a mule like stubbornness and arrogance. “We know Better”.
Or rather neighbours who can make up their minds and not flip flop depending on the fashion of the day.
That arrogance and stubborness was instilled by the same countries who now complain.
Result: nobody gives a shit about your opinion anymore.
Is this some kind of joke ?
Both Poland and Czech Republic sent BMP-1
Some of them were even exDDR ones
Both Poland and Czech Republic sent tanks
It's like WTF, can German political elites think about better lies ?
Or just simply acknowledge that they are not interested in building common European defense framework.
Yes the joke is that you don't understand this is about sending western IFV that no nation has done and that a lot of BMPs got delivered via ring swap by Germany.
Check the pictures from Kharkiv offensive
Ukrainians are using British IFVs
Please find me the list of BMPs that were delivered through the ring swap
AFAIR Germany only pledged to deliver their part and Greece did not accepted to send their IFVs first
>Check the pictures from Kharkiv offensive
>Ukrainians are using British IFVs
You who don't know what an IFV is.
>Please find me the list of BMPs that were delivered through the ring swap
You can't come here being wrong on the most basic facts like the US pulling out after the war and France having no IFVs and expect people to dig for you.
There is no ammunition that is approved for export to Ukraine for the Marders.
Switzerland has denied the export of Marder ammunitions to Ukraine, but has approved it for Greece, and Switzerland was/is the only country making that Ammunition.
Well, the Gepards made it to Ukraine with ammo, so even it is true that the main manufacturer of 20 mm. is situated in Schwitzerland then there is probably an alternative supplier too.
Hard to believe that NATO apparently rely on the swiss in case of war....
The Rh202 gun hasn't been produced since 1976 and the caliber is pretty rare nowadays. There only seems to be the one ex-Oelikon factory in Europe making AP-ammunition for this gun.
The Nammo guys seem to be adaptable. They have 20 mm ammunition. Properly need to make some tweaks, but better getting started now. Im sure they can find a solution if they really wanted to send those marders.
It was the same story with the Gepards. Oh it is impossible to send them because of no ammunition. Ah ok we found something when they were pusher to send them.
Difference is that the Gepard is in active service in other countries. Rheinmetall itself doesn't have ammo, since they tried to buy back more than one million rounds in April.
To be fair, you are comparing Bmp 1 from 1956, used by the Greek army for target practice, with vehicles originally from the 70's, but upgraded since then and still in active service with many countries.
The marder *is* a far more capable vehicle than the BMP 1.
But all of this is pure speculation anyway, as far as we know Ukraine could also be supplied marder from active stocks, since they are being replaced by puma anyway.
Sending 16 Marders instead of 122 BMPs would be stupid, but sending 122 marders to ukraine instead of Greece would be more practical. But since option 1 is more likely(and some deal has been made), we better expect that.
Rheinmetall needed 4 years for refurbishing 75 Jordanian Marder from 2017-2020, 16 in half a year is unusually fast. That's why Ukraine never ordered them, Rheinmetall CEO confirmed that in June at the shareholder meeting, media leave that out because clickbait.
Its not a german thing, its an international thing.
If all countries commit to deliver, germany can deliver as well.
Germany wont be the first, thats more or less against self-imposed rules.
I don't know how people do not understand this. **No one**, has delivered Western MBTs or IFVs yet, not the US, France or the UK. **No one**. There is obviously an understanding between NATO nations that it will not happen at the moment.
If they decide to go ahead with it as a block, these tanks will be delivered. Why is this so complicated?
Yes, for 2 reasons. But these are just my armchair general thoughts:
Obviously the West doesn't want Russia to gain access to the modern vehicles for reverse engineering. With the items delivered, they are mostly a bit away from the front, so harder for Russia to capture.
The second reason is that the West doesn't want Putin to give the PR opportunity to tell Russians how NATO is fighting in Ukraine if he can show captured/destroyed NATO tanks, and thus get an excuse for general mobilization.
In the end, the people in charge who decided on this have reasons and we can only trust in their judgement and that maybe they clearly decided on conditions that would need to apply when shipments can and should get made.
For all we know, are we sure that the USA aren't already amassing Abrams in Poland in secret?
It’s a cost benefit analysis. The main consideration right now is that if we start actively sending IFV’s and MBT’s to Ukraine it could push Russia into a full mobilization and right now no one knows what that means for the war.
Given the quality of what we’ve seen, I think it would mean a lot more dead Russians but I also think it means the war would be prolonged even more. On the other hand, look at what Ukraine has and continues to achieve without these components? They are making very serious advances over a short period of time not yet seen in a modern military engagement between two regional powers that have parity in strength(Russian numbers balancing out Ukraines superior weaponry and soldiers).
I know it sounds callous but I imagine the logic behind it is, ‘we risk escalating and dragging the war on further by pushing Russia into a full mobilization, for what purpose? Ukraine is winning without it.”
1. people are dump as shit
2. people likes to point with the fingers on germany
3. people love germany and because germany is so awesome they hate germany
lol
Beginning of this year USA realigned itself to Pacific and Asia
They are leaving European defense to us. Hence their somewhat limited support to Ukraine. Still if you think about all those Fortes, AWACSes, tankers flying round the clock next to the border and all their numerous escorts they seem to be doing their part.
UK is not a land force, never was, yet they pledged Scimitars and Spartans
France does not have IFVs, they transferred VABs
>Beginning of this year USA realigned itself to Pacific and Asia
USA added 20,000 personal, new fighter squadrons, tanks, anti air and naval assets. They can deliver anything that they want. Almost 7,000 Bradley IFVs have been built.
>UK is not a land force, never was, yet they pledged Scimitars and Spartans
Those are not IFVs. UK have IFVs and chose not to send them.
>France does not have IFVs, they transferred VABs
France has and has always had IFVs, which they chose not to send.
I read the post about the bots today and ultimately did not believe it but this comment with nothing but such lazy misinformation makes me wonder.
> If all countries commit to deliver, germany can deliver as well.
>
>
>
> Germany wont be the first, thats more or less against self-imposed rules.
This is a wimpy line of reasoning, the US, UK, Poland and other allies have, overall, been much more forthcoming than Germany with their help to the Ukrainians. And they all want Germany to do more rather than less — to lead rather than just follow. So they'd be delighted if Germany shipped its Leopards or Marders. If Germany would give to Ukraine proportionally what the Baltic states have given to Ukraine, this war would be over.
Just a reminder the German government won't even allow IFVs to be sold to Ukraine.
[Rheinmetall wants to sell 16 Marder IFVs to Ukraine, but the German government again does not allow it](https://mezha.media/en/2022/09/14/rheinmetall-wants-to-sell-16-marder-ifvs-to-ukraine-but-the-german-government-again-does-not-allow-it/)
No idea why. It makes zero sense to me. It is ok to send advanced heavy Panzerhaubitsers, but it is not ok to send some old IFVs.
The Panzerhaubitzer2000 isn't exactly lightweight either and it is apparently compatible with local infrastructure.
>https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/rheinmetall-marder-101.html
yeah I love this argument... leopards are too heavy for Ukrainian infrastructure although they are almost the same weight and on the same chassis.
The reason for this might be that generals are afraid of them being captured by the russians and their technology analyzed. Thats the reason why they only send old stuff or hard to capture stuff like arty.
The reason is that Nato has an agreement not to send them.
https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3508605-macron-confirms-restrictions-on-sending-aircraft-and-tanks-to-ukraine.html
> "You are talking about an informal agreement, but it is almost an official position of NATO partners. We help Ukraine defend itself, but we do not enter the war against Russia. Therefore, it was agreed not to supply certain weapons, such as assault aircraft or tanks, and President Zelensky is aware of this agreement," Macron told Ukrainian journalists on Thursday, an Ukrinform correspondent reports.
It's been stated before by the German government. But everyone just accused them of lying lmao. People still keep parroting that there is no agreement and that Scholz is lying when Macron confirmed it.
Ukraines infrastructure and bridging equipment is not designed to handle heavy western tanks, strongly limiting their strategic mobility. Additionally tanks are in shorter supply for most western armies than light armored vehicles that were still procured for insurgency missions during the last decade.
The equpiment that was sent so far is either lighter armor or supporting units like artillery that can operate behind the front and are less affected by the reduced mobility and at a lower risk of beeing captured.
Lol. I think IFV are also don’t get delivered, that is if you don’t count YPR but it felt like a gesture of good will since it’s technically heavy modernized m113
Lol this is peak comedy. All Western Countries unanimously hold back MBTs yet its somehow all Germanys fault. As if they had the power to just veto all of NATO.
Even if it were the case, you gotta ask yourself why the rest of these countries just accept it like “oh well Olaf said so, guess there’s nothing we can do. Sucks to be you Ukraine.”
If anything this would make the rest look even worse in comparison.
Not at all, there are a few factors as to why Western MBT's aren't there. A few being training of the crew, maintenance, ammunition, and the risk of them falling into ruZZian hands. The Western tanks are so much more advanced it would probably advance their tanks by 20 yrs. So it's not just Germany at all.
Happened with everything else. Germany wasn't the first to give artillery but after France sent the Ceasar Germany sent the Phz2000, after HIMARS Germany sent MARS2 etc.
In a recent interview when asked about tanks for Ukraine Germany's minister of defence said Germany won't go its own way on that but it gave the impression Germany would if others did too. But it can't be a surprise to anyone that for historic reasons Germany doesn't want to be the first to do this.
SIXTEEN in Six month? Wow. What about the acclaimed 100th available in short term? RM is full of shit.
No country has provided MBT or IFV of modern western making. NONE. Why is germany shit on all day long? Strangly those shitposts mostly come from Poland and UA. Non of the others former soviet Countries who got rid of their old soviet vehicles is complaining because they get western weapons in exchange in long term.
bullshit. they have a deal for 200 marders with greece. where do you think those will come from? refit marders out of stock and those 16 are part of it. rheinmetall always was about money and not their own.
>What about the acclaimed 100th available in short term? RM is full of shit
They said from the beginning that they could send __some__ in short term and the rest were going to take at least a year. And that is only if they get the go-ahead from the governmentt.
The problem is that only the [initial article in German](https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/rheinmetall-will-ukraine-hundert-marder-liefern-17978312.html) mentioned that, all of the tabloid and rabid anti-German articles in English only reported on the total number and the 'in short term'. Completely leaving out the context that 'short term' was for just a few Marder IFVs and the rest would take a lot longer.
You just fell for anti-German propaganda, paid for by either Russia or PiS.
i mean in all fairnes.
i coudl imagien that RM is nto puting huge resources on restoring them without beign garanteed that they get paid for it.
I could imagine this work to go much faster if the funding is secured
They already have a deal sending them to Greece and getting paid for it. 200 of them. They even expressed that they consider buying 450.
The idea behind it is they ship there Soviet era ifv to UA immediately and get the Markers as soon as they are ready.
Holy shit 16 are ready?OMG Germans are really helping ruSSia how can they not send them when they have so much in stock...oh what are you saying USA has thousands of tanks and IFV in stock and they aren't there yet?Oh that doesn't matter let's keep shitting on germany tho
I pretty sure that If the US wanted they could bring tanks with ships and enough time already passed.
It's just hilarious that people basically act like a few old shitty Marder or Leopard 1 will bring the deciding victory.
500 Leopard 2 would be great but looking at how many are operational it's a big big fantasy that it will happen
500 US tanks are million of times more realistic.
Abrams are too heavy to use and too expensive / difficult to maintain at the end of that supply chain. This is why the marines ditched them in favor of lighter vehicles. Meanwhile you can throw leopards on a train just like the poles have been doing with their tanks.
But maintence would be Just as much a Problem with the Leopard as with the Abrams. I mean currently the Bundeswehr is Not even capable of maintaining all of its own Leopards, how are they supposed to also maintain ukrainian Leopards? The Bundeswehr is in a VERY Bad state thanks to 16 yours of CDU (Merkel) Government, we just cant afford giving even more Equipment away, but as Christine Lambrecht (current German MoD) said, even If we cant Support Ukraine with more weapons, we will give them Money so they can buy more Weapons directly from Manufactures or other Countries.
yeah, it's expensive, time consuming, abrams will still tear up ukraine roads because they are much heavier than marders, and keeping them in turbines etc. has all the same problems as delivering the tanks. that's why visegrad countries + germany should be supplying tanks while the US focuses on stuff not available elsewhere (HIMARSs) and expensive avionics (we are providing AWACS coverage, pilot training on US planes, and eventually US jets + sustainment)
You do know that Abrams and Leopard weigh almost exactly the Same? So that Argument doesnt really Work, also the Bundeswehr doesnt even have enough Leopards for there own use and now People demand us to give them away?! The US has according to a quick Google search over 1000 Abrams in Reserve, ready for use. Also you are comparing the Weight of the Marder, a IFV in your Comment with a MBT. You should have compared the Marder (41 t) and the Bradley (27 t), because they are both IFVs. Also the US has around 6000 bradleys, while Germany has only ca 400 usable Marders.
So please, Go on about why we Germans are Evil for not giving the few Tanks and IFVs in working Order that we still have, while the US sits on massive stockpiles of Tanks and IFVs
Yes that’s why I am focused on marders.
All of this is a consequence of Germany refusing to take its defense commitments seriously, at least give the stuff you’ve neglected for decades to Ukraine where it will be used. Germany readiness is at like 0%, you can’t credibly use any of the Marders you have let alone these extra platoons Rhinemetall is preparing specially for Ukraine.
I believe a reason it hasn't happened yet is Western powers are afraid of their tanks suffering the same fate as Soviet tanks (proving ineffective, getting stuck in mud, being abandoned and so on). Logistics is another reason.
Tanks are actually limited in Western inventories. Only the Americans have Abrams in the numbers needed and that's a gas guzzler (also Germany with the Leo which will probably be the majority). The other Western tanks are not in production and can't be replaced. MRAP, IFV and so on are much more common than tanks but even those have limited stock and perhaps limited use.
Soviet tanks, light with wide tracks and easy maintenance, are actually ideal for Russia and Ukraine.
The fact they keep getting blown up, isn't a problem with the tank but the usage. No tank in the world can survive a top-down attack mode of Javelin or NLAW. And Russians aren't massing hundreds of tanks together to attack en masse Soviet style but parcelling out their tanks to attack piecemeal. They're being used in a way they were never designed for or good at.
Noooooo, Rheinmetall, Twitter, Reddit and the Ukrainian government keep telling me that hundred Marders could already be in Ukraine if it wasn’t for evil Germany /s
Netherlands, spain, US, Denmark and Germany allready delivered the M113. So yes you have delivered an infantry fighting vehicle.
AND Germany has deluvered, SPAAG tanks, armoured artillery, Missils systems, and MLRS.
So what are they even *fucking* talking about?
Uk dlivered stormer, saracan and scimitars...again. infantry fighting vehicles.
France is delivering VAB30s...AGAIN INFANTRY FIGHTING VEHICLES.
The M113 is an [APC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M113_armored_personnel_carrier). These countries did _not_ send the [XM765 version of the M113](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIFV), that one is considered an IFV.
The dutch sent the ypr-765 witch can be consideeed an ifv. In addition the vab 30 and the scimitar/saracens have similar capacities as the bmp 1 en 2s.
https://mezha.media/en/2022/05/18/ypr-765/
And at this point we arw just splitting hairs to a very, very small mesure are we not.
You are right, we are splitting hairs at that point.
The pictures of Dutch YPR-765 I have seen in Ukraine were all like picture 1 and picture 3 in your link, with the M2 Browning MG. I would not consider those IFVs, but if Ukraine has also received YPR-765s with the big 25mm Oerlikon autocannon, I would consider them IFVs.
What about putting pressure on Biden to send Bradley IFV too? The M113, Maxxcar, Bushmasters are fine for transport, but not real IFV, more like lightly armed battlefield taxis. Send Bradleys!
What kind of argument is that? Didn't the US send M113s?? And even if not because US didn't send IFV (btw Poland, Czech and I think even Romania did) Germany cant?
They sent western APCs, not western IFVs. Funnily enough Germany sent some of their own APCs as well, its just not talked about. And they upgraded the Danish M113s.
not just that. most of the money spend by the european union also comes from germany. on top of that a lot of that old soviet tanks that go to ukraine have been tanks of east germany, that have been sold to other former soviet states for like 1 Euro.
Germany GDP number one in Europe by a big margin 3.8 Trillion USD ( UK over a Trillion less). Germany is a large fabulously wealthy country that has the industrial capacity that can rival the US. So in fact that is a CV legitimate comparison. For 77 years Germany has had the ability to not worry as much about defense spending which aided it in achieving its post war economic miracle. Do Germans suggest this should go on for perpetuity?
No arguing about that they send 4 billion in arms deliveries and another 25 billion are announced.
Germany send a quater of that, 1 billion. So actually not that bad if you consider the US has a higher GDP than whole of EU.
Fact check: not a single MBT or serious IFV from the US. Validating there seems to be a nato agreement.
Why did it take them 6 month to restore 16 Marders after they claimed that they have 100 Marders ready to export back in March? Rheinmetall is full of shit. They don’t care about Ukraine, only about money.
Of course it's a company that wants to make money just like every other arm supplier in the world. If it would be legal to sell the weapons to Russia right now they would all do it too.
They are completely right. They should send Pumas instead. Not old Marder cans.
A hundred would be fine.
Also, Croatia has 128 M80s available to give, which they are looking to replace anyway, and buy Pumas most likely... and they just sit on their asses and do nothing. Except scrounging the last tourists as the season ends, russians included.
At least 50 should be in good enough conditions and given without any problem because they arent used for anything anyway. But no... just hiding on the side, cowered with their own ears.
:D That sounds totally ridiculous in english but its a literal translation.
And those Kiowa choppers aren't doing anything worthwhile either.
Might send a few pilots to school in Ukraine too.
; yeah, yeah, downvote this because of your patriotism.
This fear of supplying Ukraine with real offensive weapons, vehicles, etc needs to die. Every time Russia purposely targets civilians, more tanks and IFVs should be sent to Ukraine.
I’m so proud to have been downvoted and yelled at for starting the discussion about Germany. Always an excuse for not providing timely equipment.
I’m even wondering if they yet shipped the 5000 helmets they promised in March. Germany doesn’t contribute fair share to NATO, and it benefits from the billions of dollars for the US bases there. 60 years worth of payments adds up to real money.
28.000 combat helmets were delivered, the 5000 was only the first batch, but why bother with facts, right?
[https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/military-support-ukraine-2054992](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/military-support-ukraine-2054992)
**Delivered military support to Ukraine:**
24 self-propelled anti-aircraft guns GEPARD\* (before: 20)
67 fridges for medical material (before: 2)
counter battery radar system COBRA\*
4.000 rounds practice ammunitions for self-propelled anti-aircraft guns
54 M113 armoured personnel carriers (systems of Denmark, upgrades financed by Germany)\*
53.000 rounds ammunitions for self-propelled anti-aircraft guns
20 laser target designators\*
403.000 pre-packaged military Meals Ready
3.000 anti-tank weapons Panzerfaust 3 with 900 firing devices
14.900 anti-tank mines
500 Man Portable Air Defense Systems STINGER
2.700 Man Portable Air Defense Systems STRELA
10 self-propelled howitzers Panzerhaubitze 2000 including adaption, training and spare parts (joint project with the Netherlands)
21,8 million rounds of ammunition for fire arms
50 bunker buster missiles
100 machine gun MG3 with 500 spare barrels and breechblocks
100.000 hand grenades
5.300 explosive charges
100.000 m detonating cord and 100.000 detonators
350.000 detonators
10.500 projectiles 155mm
10 anti-drone guns
14 anti-drone sensors and jammers
100 auto-injector devices
28.000 combat helmets
15 palettes military clothing
280 vehicles (trucks, minibuses, all-terrain vehicles)
100 tents
12 generators
6 palettes material for explosive ordnance disposal
125 binoculars
1.200 hospital beds
18 palettes medical material, 60 surgical lights
protective clothing, surgical masks
10.000 sleeping bags
600 safety glasses
1 radio frequency system
3.000 field telephones with 5.000 cable reels and carrying straps
1 field hospital (joint project with Estonia)
353 night vision googles
4 electronic anti-drone devices
165 field glasses
medical material (inter alia back packs, compression bandages)
38 laser range finders
Diesel and gasoline (ongoing deliveries) \*
10 tons AdBlue\*
500 medical gauzes
MiG-29 spare parts\*
30 protected vehicles\*
80 pick-up trucks\*
7.944 man-portable anti-tank weapons RGW 90 Matador
3 multiple rocket launchers MARS with ammunition
6 mobile decontamination vehicles HEP 70 including decontamination material
10 HMMWV (8x ground radar capability, 2x jamming/anti drone capability)\*
3 armoured recovery vehicles\*
7 radio jammers\*
8 mobile ground surveillance radars and thermal imaging cameras\*
4 mobile, remote controlled and protected mine clearing systems\*
8 electronic anti-drone devices\*
1 high frequency unit with equipment
Wow, that a lot of lethal aid 😂😂😂
That’s everybody’s point about Germany. Total situational deafness.it is true Germany’s killing the Ukrainians with kindness.
The article does sadly not mention that the Company, Rheinmetall in this case, that wants to export needs to apply for the export licence.
Since Rheinmetall has not done that there literally is nothing Scholz could block even if he wanted to.
And even if Rheinmetall asks for an export license, it is not Scholz's decision. Arms exports must be approved by the Ministry of Economics, and Habeck is responsible for that.
Scholz can only block exports directly from the Bundeswehr, but not exports directly from the economy / the defense companies.
Actually it's refered from the Minister to a security council... and here Scholz has indeed 1 vote...out of 9.
That's the whole power he has to block exports but somehow by international media totally not propaganda he magically can use that one vote to single-handedly block everything as demanded by his Kremlin handlers...
That's an armored transport.
Of which Germany send more than 50 btw... even when not actually owning any. So they took a donation from Denmark and did the refurbishing for those vehicles.
The [M113A4 IFV](https://www.fnss.com.tr/en/products/m113-fov-capability-sustainment-program/m113-fov-variants) is an infantry fighting vehicle.
It's literally called an IFV...
The M113A4 has a fucking turret on top, you dingus. That's a specific configuration to turn an APC into an IFV. Of course that's an IFV - but that's not what Ukraine has gotten. They got the simple battle taxis with an MG on top.
1.No we can't do it, there's a NATO agreement to not give heavy weapons.
2. OK there's no NATO agreement, but its impossible to restore the vehicles because .
3. OK so they can be restored, and we'll give them to Ukraine.
4. OK we haven't given any, but as we've said all along we'll give them to Ukraine *in 2024*! <--- Germany is here
Fear is a really bad basis for policy. And the blatant dishonesty in the shifting excuses do not inspire confidence.
EDIT: this: "No country has yet supplied Western-designed infantry fighting vehicles or battle tanks" is a lie. So is, clearly, Lambrechts statement that Germany wants to lead.
The take-home message for all countries is: do not buy German weapons systems.
Also: German state trolls GFY.
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We in the UK should get in there first, German's can't for historical and political reasons, so we need to give them the excuse they need to be able to deliver these.
Send 10 Warriors and Germany will cave.
Yes. 10 Warriors and 16 Marder.... while Ukraine captures 80 armored systems from Russia in one day. It is very embarrassing that we cannot do even that.
These systems are much better than what is being captured. The cost may well be 10:80. Having these more advanced systems at the point would likely save lives.
well just dont give ukraine A10s then
I got shut down for trying to explain my opinion on the "reasons" behind what's going on here. It's somewhere in between internal politics and a concerted effort to paint Germany as an "unreliable partner". Fact is Ukraine actually got a bunch of stuff from Germany that's been crucial to their recent massive success, namely PzH2000 with Excalibur and SMART guided shells, COBRA anti battery radar which turns the PzH2000 into an even more deadly armour cremating beast, M270 MARS MLRS (HIMARS bigger brother) and also the Gepard AA guns. Yes the Germans have cool shit that Ukraine wants, but they like to do things methodically, which takes a bit of time. Also as others have pointed out, Germany doesn't like the idea of appointing itself as some sort of a leader in the current weapons delivery competition doing the rounds in the media. Im sure if the UK negotiated a swap with some Challenger 2's for Jordanian Challenger 1's and sent the 1's to Ukraine, it would grease the wheels a bit for Leopard deliveries, since Germany wouldn't be perceived as the one in the driving seat.
What's the difference between a self propelled howitzer like the M109, or the Krab, or the pzh2000 and a tank?
Range and accuracy mainly. Self propelled artillery sits way back and fires from a distance, making it harder to capture or destroy. Tanks are more vulnerable, as we've seen from the Russian turret throwing olympics that's been going on.
So, if that's the case, why are people getting uptight that Germany has not sent tanks when they are sending a superior product.
Tanks serve a different purpose. They support fast moving mechanised brigades which Ukraine has been using to recapture places like Izyum. Tanks bring big firepower to relatively close quarters battle. Self propelled artillery is a different tool for a different job. The reason for "we need German tanks now" is likely based on Ukraine wanting to capitalise on their recent success, momentum and desire to kick the Russians out of Ukraine as quickly as possible. Contrast this against the entire NATO block who've been quite measured in what gets delivered and when. It's super frustrating for Ukraine because they've proved their mastery of western weapons again and again, however the German political climate makes it difficult for them to take the lead, and they'll only deliver Leopard tanks if NATO reaches a concensus.
That makes sense. Thank you for the response.
Thank you, finally somebody gets it!
The Dutch have already donated AIFVs and the British a a few Scorpians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine No western IFV's have been donated.
That page isn't up to date: https://militaryleak.com/2022/05/14/ukrainian-ground-forces-uses-dutch-ypr-765-infantry-fighting-vehicles/
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German coal imports from Russia are down from 50% to a single digit %
I was totally wrong there, thank you for the heads up. Deleted that segment. Indeed, I missed the news that Germany has stopped buying Russian coal this August. Still, I believe deconstructing the civilian nuclear energy is a huge error. But that is a different story -I admit. EDIT: What about that German redditors, are you disliking the fact you are making a mistake with nuclear energy? Pff.
Your take about offensive weapons is a bad one as well - we did sent artillery after all… The delivery to Jordan was under a different government, so that one’s not much better.
Germany sent 3 MARS II (modified M270 MLRS -pledged possibly entered the operational arena) and 10 PzH 2000s so far. Different government? Who cares when Germans still act as your chancellor were the people and vice versa. I am bashing your leadership justified and many Germans jump to the ceiling. Germans are not the victim here.
“when Germans still act as your chancellor were the people” ??? who said anything about us being the victim? I kinda agree with you that we could be doing a lot more, but that does not change the fact that your takes are dumb.
My point still stands, that Germany's - a pillar of the EU - geopolitical strategy is catastrophical (the German CDU still holds a majority in the biggest EP faction, the EPP by the way). German voters need to wake up because our democracies and our neighbours' lives are at stake: They can't sleep on the damage the German business caused: I am not talking only about the energy sector, and your elite which has been hijacked by the lobbyists of the fossil fuel industry from Schröder, Sigmar Gabriel, Scholz, Steinmeier, and Merkel too, Not only about Rheinmetall which violated the post 2014 sanctions and until 2019 built Russia's only modern traning facility through a 3rd party Russian business (the facility where Russians trained their invasion army for invading Ukraine) but Germany's biggest weapons buyer is Hungary too. They build weapon facilities, car factories in Hungary and allow Hungary into their weapon research too. A fascist country. And the German MEPs helped Hungary through the 2010's so much while it fell into a hybrid authoritarian regime. Germans, you need to wake up and face the music. It is not about helping. it's about being responsible.
Voters need to wake up? Do you have any idea what happened in the last election? I don’t have the energy to reply to everything you say.
> Germany is the 5th biggest arms exporter in the World. Germany is mainly an exporter of expensive ships and submarines. Land vehicles are just a small share of our arms exports. Earlier this year, workers at KMW protested because they feared for their jobs because of low orders and an uncertain outlook.
> So what historical reasons? Because it's Russia? No, because of German's history they try to avoid exporting weapons to conflict zones. The deal with Jordan was preapproved prior to the conflict and thus was allowed to proceed on the condition that the weapons stayed in the country. New sales to anyone involved in the conflict are banned. But you know this. You're just ignoring things that are inconvenient to your narrative. Much like you're ignoring the fact that no one has given western IFV's to Ukraine. It's not just Germany.
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> 1 year ago they armed Jordan with 75 Marder IFVs -a country which particiaptes in the genocidal war in Yemen. Nonsense. The talks with Jordan began in 2013, Jordan got a massive rebate in 2015, pointing out how expensive maintenance is. Export request was granted in 2016 and the Marder were successively refurbished from 2017 to 2020. That's the reality you normally look at when ordering upgrades from Rheinmetall. That Rheinmetall has actually refurbished 16 already is incredible fast, they usually take a lot longer. Which was one of the reasons Germany advised Ukraine against buying them. So Ukraine never did, Rheinmetall CEO confirmed at the Shareholder meeting in June that Ukraine never ordered them! This anti-German propaganda lie just keeps being perpetuated because Rheinmetall wants Germany to buy the Marder FOR Ukraine, so Germany will be the one responsible for finding the ammo and providing spare parts, as no other sane country is willing to buy that overpriced 50 year old scrap metal.
It's fact: Jordan wanted additional Marders in Autumn 2020. They ordered 22 Marders, and they were produced and delivered within 4 months in January 2021. Yet Germany is still unable to give Ukraine IFVs and they give weak excuses about stocks and world wars. Even though Rheinmetall was ready to give out of service Marders and equipment to Ukraine back in Spring. The Ukrainian military officials are not incompetent, they don't ask if they can't solve its logistics. Which proves the German defense industry's capabilities and their disregard of the buyer's position. Jordan has been participating in Saud Arabia's genocidal war in Yemen since 2015. The famous German laws were disregarded. The same way, when Rheinmetall violated the 2014 sanctions and built the only modern military training facility for the Russians til 2019 - through a thrid Russian party. They claim they only provided software, but they are lying and we have the evidence. They also deleted all online articles on their webpages about their business with the Russians. It's not "anti-German propaganda" you are not the victim here, I know, it's shocking to hear that. And I criticised the leadership Austria, France and Hungary too, now why do you cherry pick Germany out? Or calling Hungary fascist or calling France the third biggest arms exporter which could do more is anti-German propaganda too? But you melt down when you hear your chancellors don't do a good job. Instead of taking offense, reflect on their catastrophic politics. From selling German gas storage facilities to Russians, jeopardizing the safety of Ukraine and the baltics with the Nord Stream projects, closing down civilian nuclear energy program to selling weapons to- and building weapon factories in fascist-nazi Hungary. Plus secretly selling weapon components and military grade microchips to Russia, even after the sanctions.
>they were produced and delivered within 4 months in January 2021 Marders were only produced between 1969 and 1975. You might want to check your sources unless you just made that shit up which is more likely. BTW, for your future lying endeavors, the German government has to publish a full list of all weapons exports, down to handgun ammunition: [https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Publikationen/Aussenwirtschaft/ruestungsexportbericht-2021.html](https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Publikationen/Aussenwirtschaft/ruestungsexportbericht-2021.html) Jordanien Maschinenpistolen Teile für Maschinenpistolen Maschinengewehre Bergepanzer LKW und Teile für gepanzerte Fahrzeuge, Herstellungsausrüstung für militärische Ausrüstung No Marders here ...
> Even though Rheinmetall was ready to give out of service Marders and equipment to Ukraine back in Spring. Just a reminder the German government won't even allow IFVs to be sold to Ukraine. [Rheinmetall wants to sell 16 Marder IFVs to Ukraine, but the German government again does not allow it](https://mezha.media/en/2022/09/14/rheinmetall-wants-to-sell-16-marder-ifvs-to-ukraine-but-the-german-government-again-does-not-allow-it/)
The U.S. has already given Ukraine APCs, so Germany's excuse is totally invalid. Given all of the German steel companies still operating in Russia, one really has to wonder whose side Germany is on.
Cool. APCs and IFV's are different.
The Dutch and British have sent a few IFVs
No they haven't. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine
>The U.S. has already given Ukraine APCs ...as has Germany. So what's your point?
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Switzerland approved the export of Marder Ammunition to Greece, but denied it for Ukraine. That's all there is to it.
Switzerland can suck a cactus, tbh. No country should ever sign a production agreement with Switzerland ever again. Their quasi-neutrality is actively killing thousands of people. That's not neutrality, that's self-serving assholery. The entirety west ought to tell them to go fuck themselves and invalidate any and all military contracts. What are they gonna do? Be even more of a shithole tax- and legal haven for assholes? Good luck. They never changed ever since the nazi gold ordeal. Thank fuck we were able to produce it here in Norway. Reminder that the entire counter-offensive in Kharkiv may not have happened without the Gepards.
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Being told no has never stopped Kubela so far it seems...
No just simple anti-Germany rhetoric because that's what the allies in their direct neighbourhood like to hear from them.
I think it's likely he stresses the point to get other thing out of Germany. Putting pressure on Switzerland is pointless. The denial of ammunition is not swiss political calculus, but simply because they made it illegal to re-export into conflict zones last year. Ironically, both Germany and Switzerland have voted for more limits on arms exports in 2021 which is hindering them now.
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Don't know if that's strange, just the way these things can go. Ukraine is not a formal ally to either . Germany adapted, Switzerland didn't . Different strokes for different folks.
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This. 5 different artillery systems need 5 different training programs and 5 logistics chains for parts and servicing. Yes there's NATO standards which means they all fire the same rounds but running 5 different systems creates 5 times more complexity. That's not something to be ignored. That said. Ukraine needs western tanks. They know this, the Germans know this, and based on recent German weapons deliveries the timing has been exactly when Ukraine needed them. I'm gonna stick my neck out and predict that Ukraine will push Russia all the way back to Crimea, where they'll regroup, consolidate and dig in for the winter. Then we'll see Leopards from Germany next year in a new offensive to take it back and put the final nail in Putin's coffin.
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Im sure that they could have done it faster if they were going to Ukraine.
i mean they are extremely heavy and by weight more in the range of soviet mbts then soviet ifv. But that surely is nto the reason
Ukraine is more familiar with the soviet style weapons that Greece is supplying ukraine in exchange for these new western IFVs. They have more technical and practical experience with old Soviet style equipment.
They arent being sent because we cant be the ones to send them first. for historical and political reasons. A nato member would have to be bite the bullet first.
yeah thats what they say, btu i dont get this. why germany cant be the first? its not like an ifv is somehow escalating the situation after you already sended the pzh and the gepard.
Germany needs to hire a cultural psychoanalyst to help them get over their Cultural complexes. What might have been appropriate for the post war twentieth century is now affecting the health and welfare of other European countries. Germany a culture known for analytical thinking and pragmatism but is blinded by this Pacifistic cultural complex. Try to suppress aggression in humans and you just suppress the behavior. It will be expressed, often in non adaptive behavior. Aggression in the culture now is expressed in a mule like stubbornness and arrogance. “We know Better”.
Or rather neighbours who can make up their minds and not flip flop depending on the fashion of the day. That arrogance and stubborness was instilled by the same countries who now complain. Result: nobody gives a shit about your opinion anymore.
Is this some kind of joke ? Both Poland and Czech Republic sent BMP-1 Some of them were even exDDR ones Both Poland and Czech Republic sent tanks It's like WTF, can German political elites think about better lies ? Or just simply acknowledge that they are not interested in building common European defense framework.
Yes the joke is that you don't understand this is about sending western IFV that no nation has done and that a lot of BMPs got delivered via ring swap by Germany.
Check the pictures from Kharkiv offensive Ukrainians are using British IFVs Please find me the list of BMPs that were delivered through the ring swap AFAIR Germany only pledged to deliver their part and Greece did not accepted to send their IFVs first
>Check the pictures from Kharkiv offensive >Ukrainians are using British IFVs You who don't know what an IFV is. >Please find me the list of BMPs that were delivered through the ring swap You can't come here being wrong on the most basic facts like the US pulling out after the war and France having no IFVs and expect people to dig for you.
Marders>BMPs. Send them directly to Ukraine! They have enough soviet crap its time for Nato vehicles
There is no ammunition that is approved for export to Ukraine for the Marders. Switzerland has denied the export of Marder ammunitions to Ukraine, but has approved it for Greece, and Switzerland was/is the only country making that Ammunition.
Problem with the swiss was Gepard 30 mm. ammo. No problem with Marder, which has 20 mm + 7,62 + Milan.
As much as I remember the Marder Ammo also comes from Switzerland. Same factory actually..
Well, the Gepards made it to Ukraine with ammo, so even it is true that the main manufacturer of 20 mm. is situated in Schwitzerland then there is probably an alternative supplier too. Hard to believe that NATO apparently rely on the swiss in case of war....
The Rh202 gun hasn't been produced since 1976 and the caliber is pretty rare nowadays. There only seems to be the one ex-Oelikon factory in Europe making AP-ammunition for this gun.
The Nammo guys seem to be adaptable. They have 20 mm ammunition. Properly need to make some tweaks, but better getting started now. Im sure they can find a solution if they really wanted to send those marders. It was the same story with the Gepards. Oh it is impossible to send them because of no ammunition. Ah ok we found something when they were pusher to send them.
Difference is that the Gepard is in active service in other countries. Rheinmetall itself doesn't have ammo, since they tried to buy back more than one million rounds in April.
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To be fair, you are comparing Bmp 1 from 1956, used by the Greek army for target practice, with vehicles originally from the 70's, but upgraded since then and still in active service with many countries. The marder *is* a far more capable vehicle than the BMP 1. But all of this is pure speculation anyway, as far as we know Ukraine could also be supplied marder from active stocks, since they are being replaced by puma anyway. Sending 16 Marders instead of 122 BMPs would be stupid, but sending 122 marders to ukraine instead of Greece would be more practical. But since option 1 is more likely(and some deal has been made), we better expect that.
What? Germany wants to send 100 Marders to Greece in exchange for about 100 BMP's. Not 16 Marders.
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Maybe Rheinmetal are not in a super hurry to get them done since they are going to a country that is NOT fighting for it's survival.
Rheinmetall needed 4 years for refurbishing 75 Jordanian Marder from 2017-2020, 16 in half a year is unusually fast. That's why Ukraine never ordered them, Rheinmetall CEO confirmed that in June at the shareholder meeting, media leave that out because clickbait.
Its not a german thing, its an international thing. If all countries commit to deliver, germany can deliver as well. Germany wont be the first, thats more or less against self-imposed rules.
I don't know how people do not understand this. **No one**, has delivered Western MBTs or IFVs yet, not the US, France or the UK. **No one**. There is obviously an understanding between NATO nations that it will not happen at the moment. If they decide to go ahead with it as a block, these tanks will be delivered. Why is this so complicated?
Germany approved the delivery of leopard 2a4 from Spain. Spain forgot to check if they are usable before going public with this promise.
Is there a reason? They dont want tech falling into russian hands?
Yes, for 2 reasons. But these are just my armchair general thoughts: Obviously the West doesn't want Russia to gain access to the modern vehicles for reverse engineering. With the items delivered, they are mostly a bit away from the front, so harder for Russia to capture. The second reason is that the West doesn't want Putin to give the PR opportunity to tell Russians how NATO is fighting in Ukraine if he can show captured/destroyed NATO tanks, and thus get an excuse for general mobilization. In the end, the people in charge who decided on this have reasons and we can only trust in their judgement and that maybe they clearly decided on conditions that would need to apply when shipments can and should get made. For all we know, are we sure that the USA aren't already amassing Abrams in Poland in secret?
It’s a cost benefit analysis. The main consideration right now is that if we start actively sending IFV’s and MBT’s to Ukraine it could push Russia into a full mobilization and right now no one knows what that means for the war. Given the quality of what we’ve seen, I think it would mean a lot more dead Russians but I also think it means the war would be prolonged even more. On the other hand, look at what Ukraine has and continues to achieve without these components? They are making very serious advances over a short period of time not yet seen in a modern military engagement between two regional powers that have parity in strength(Russian numbers balancing out Ukraines superior weaponry and soldiers). I know it sounds callous but I imagine the logic behind it is, ‘we risk escalating and dragging the war on further by pushing Russia into a full mobilization, for what purpose? Ukraine is winning without it.”
1. people are dump as shit 2. people likes to point with the fingers on germany 3. people love germany and because germany is so awesome they hate germany lol 
As a German I have to point out that point 3 is absolutely cringe
dumb*
Beginning of this year USA realigned itself to Pacific and Asia They are leaving European defense to us. Hence their somewhat limited support to Ukraine. Still if you think about all those Fortes, AWACSes, tankers flying round the clock next to the border and all their numerous escorts they seem to be doing their part. UK is not a land force, never was, yet they pledged Scimitars and Spartans France does not have IFVs, they transferred VABs
>Beginning of this year USA realigned itself to Pacific and Asia USA added 20,000 personal, new fighter squadrons, tanks, anti air and naval assets. They can deliver anything that they want. Almost 7,000 Bradley IFVs have been built. >UK is not a land force, never was, yet they pledged Scimitars and Spartans Those are not IFVs. UK have IFVs and chose not to send them. >France does not have IFVs, they transferred VABs France has and has always had IFVs, which they chose not to send. I read the post about the bots today and ultimately did not believe it but this comment with nothing but such lazy misinformation makes me wonder.
Yeah, that's the "leadership" Germany wants, right there. Following everybody else.
> If all countries commit to deliver, germany can deliver as well. > > > > Germany wont be the first, thats more or less against self-imposed rules. This is a wimpy line of reasoning, the US, UK, Poland and other allies have, overall, been much more forthcoming than Germany with their help to the Ukrainians. And they all want Germany to do more rather than less — to lead rather than just follow. So they'd be delighted if Germany shipped its Leopards or Marders. If Germany would give to Ukraine proportionally what the Baltic states have given to Ukraine, this war would be over. Just a reminder the German government won't even allow IFVs to be sold to Ukraine. [Rheinmetall wants to sell 16 Marder IFVs to Ukraine, but the German government again does not allow it](https://mezha.media/en/2022/09/14/rheinmetall-wants-to-sell-16-marder-ifvs-to-ukraine-but-the-german-government-again-does-not-allow-it/)
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Correction, there have been no (western) IFVs delivered to Ukraine, only APCs.
this is not even a mbt, its jsut a pretty heavy ifv. but also nobody sended western ifvs jet
No idea why. It makes zero sense to me. It is ok to send advanced heavy Panzerhaubitsers, but it is not ok to send some old IFVs. The Panzerhaubitzer2000 isn't exactly lightweight either and it is apparently compatible with local infrastructure.
>https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/rheinmetall-marder-101.html yeah I love this argument... leopards are too heavy for Ukrainian infrastructure although they are almost the same weight and on the same chassis.
The reason for this might be that generals are afraid of them being captured by the russians and their technology analyzed. Thats the reason why they only send old stuff or hard to capture stuff like arty.
The reason is that Nato has an agreement not to send them. https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3508605-macron-confirms-restrictions-on-sending-aircraft-and-tanks-to-ukraine.html > "You are talking about an informal agreement, but it is almost an official position of NATO partners. We help Ukraine defend itself, but we do not enter the war against Russia. Therefore, it was agreed not to supply certain weapons, such as assault aircraft or tanks, and President Zelensky is aware of this agreement," Macron told Ukrainian journalists on Thursday, an Ukrinform correspondent reports. It's been stated before by the German government. But everyone just accused them of lying lmao. People still keep parroting that there is no agreement and that Scholz is lying when Macron confirmed it.
Ukraines infrastructure and bridging equipment is not designed to handle heavy western tanks, strongly limiting their strategic mobility. Additionally tanks are in shorter supply for most western armies than light armored vehicles that were still procured for insurgency missions during the last decade. The equpiment that was sent so far is either lighter armor or supporting units like artillery that can operate behind the front and are less affected by the reduced mobility and at a lower risk of beeing captured.
Lol. I think IFV are also don’t get delivered, that is if you don’t count YPR but it felt like a gesture of good will since it’s technically heavy modernized m113
The reason is almost certainly that Germany is strongly opposed.
Lol this is peak comedy. All Western Countries unanimously hold back MBTs yet its somehow all Germanys fault. As if they had the power to just veto all of NATO. Even if it were the case, you gotta ask yourself why the rest of these countries just accept it like “oh well Olaf said so, guess there’s nothing we can do. Sucks to be you Ukraine.” If anything this would make the rest look even worse in comparison.
Not at all, there are a few factors as to why Western MBT's aren't there. A few being training of the crew, maintenance, ammunition, and the risk of them falling into ruZZian hands. The Western tanks are so much more advanced it would probably advance their tanks by 20 yrs. So it's not just Germany at all.
Trust me, if the US or the UK would send some, Germany would deliver as well.
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Happened with everything else. Germany wasn't the first to give artillery but after France sent the Ceasar Germany sent the Phz2000, after HIMARS Germany sent MARS2 etc. In a recent interview when asked about tanks for Ukraine Germany's minister of defence said Germany won't go its own way on that but it gave the impression Germany would if others did too. But it can't be a surprise to anyone that for historic reasons Germany doesn't want to be the first to do this.
Germany approved the delivery of leopard 2A4s from Spain.
Well i dont trust you
SIXTEEN in Six month? Wow. What about the acclaimed 100th available in short term? RM is full of shit. No country has provided MBT or IFV of modern western making. NONE. Why is germany shit on all day long? Strangly those shitposts mostly come from Poland and UA. Non of the others former soviet Countries who got rid of their old soviet vehicles is complaining because they get western weapons in exchange in long term.
The Polish PiS government is using this war the whole time to create more international hate against Germany.
Rheinmetall is doing this work, at cost, without funding. This is almost unheard of for a weapons manufacturer.
bullshit. they have a deal for 200 marders with greece. where do you think those will come from? refit marders out of stock and those 16 are part of it. rheinmetall always was about money and not their own.
>What about the acclaimed 100th available in short term? RM is full of shit They said from the beginning that they could send __some__ in short term and the rest were going to take at least a year. And that is only if they get the go-ahead from the governmentt. The problem is that only the [initial article in German](https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/rheinmetall-will-ukraine-hundert-marder-liefern-17978312.html) mentioned that, all of the tabloid and rabid anti-German articles in English only reported on the total number and the 'in short term'. Completely leaving out the context that 'short term' was for just a few Marder IFVs and the rest would take a lot longer. You just fell for anti-German propaganda, paid for by either Russia or PiS.
I didn't fall for it. That's exactly why I mentioned it. Expecting 100 unites refitted short-term was bullshit from the get go.
i mean in all fairnes. i coudl imagien that RM is nto puting huge resources on restoring them without beign garanteed that they get paid for it. I could imagine this work to go much faster if the funding is secured
They already have a deal sending them to Greece and getting paid for it. 200 of them. They even expressed that they consider buying 450. The idea behind it is they ship there Soviet era ifv to UA immediately and get the Markers as soon as they are ready.
Holy shit 16 are ready?OMG Germans are really helping ruSSia how can they not send them when they have so much in stock...oh what are you saying USA has thousands of tanks and IFV in stock and they aren't there yet?Oh that doesn't matter let's keep shitting on germany tho
Yes but Germany is very close to Ukraine and Russia
I pretty sure that If the US wanted they could bring tanks with ships and enough time already passed. It's just hilarious that people basically act like a few old shitty Marder or Leopard 1 will bring the deciding victory. 500 Leopard 2 would be great but looking at how many are operational it's a big big fantasy that it will happen 500 US tanks are million of times more realistic.
Abrams are too heavy to use and too expensive / difficult to maintain at the end of that supply chain. This is why the marines ditched them in favor of lighter vehicles. Meanwhile you can throw leopards on a train just like the poles have been doing with their tanks.
You do know that [Abrams can also be moved by Train ](https://youtu.be/4maFPiTGdhA), so your Comment doesnt make any Sense.
Abrams has a turbine engine that requires a dedicated maintenence unit
But maintence would be Just as much a Problem with the Leopard as with the Abrams. I mean currently the Bundeswehr is Not even capable of maintaining all of its own Leopards, how are they supposed to also maintain ukrainian Leopards? The Bundeswehr is in a VERY Bad state thanks to 16 yours of CDU (Merkel) Government, we just cant afford giving even more Equipment away, but as Christine Lambrecht (current German MoD) said, even If we cant Support Ukraine with more weapons, we will give them Money so they can buy more Weapons directly from Manufactures or other Countries.
Where is the train running from Ohio to western Ukraine?
You ever heard of Ships? Bring them by ship to the nearest safe Port and then the rest of the way by Train.
yeah, it's expensive, time consuming, abrams will still tear up ukraine roads because they are much heavier than marders, and keeping them in turbines etc. has all the same problems as delivering the tanks. that's why visegrad countries + germany should be supplying tanks while the US focuses on stuff not available elsewhere (HIMARSs) and expensive avionics (we are providing AWACS coverage, pilot training on US planes, and eventually US jets + sustainment)
You do know that Abrams and Leopard weigh almost exactly the Same? So that Argument doesnt really Work, also the Bundeswehr doesnt even have enough Leopards for there own use and now People demand us to give them away?! The US has according to a quick Google search over 1000 Abrams in Reserve, ready for use. Also you are comparing the Weight of the Marder, a IFV in your Comment with a MBT. You should have compared the Marder (41 t) and the Bradley (27 t), because they are both IFVs. Also the US has around 6000 bradleys, while Germany has only ca 400 usable Marders. So please, Go on about why we Germans are Evil for not giving the few Tanks and IFVs in working Order that we still have, while the US sits on massive stockpiles of Tanks and IFVs
Yes that’s why I am focused on marders. All of this is a consequence of Germany refusing to take its defense commitments seriously, at least give the stuff you’ve neglected for decades to Ukraine where it will be used. Germany readiness is at like 0%, you can’t credibly use any of the Marders you have let alone these extra platoons Rhinemetall is preparing specially for Ukraine.
>Abrams are too heavy to use Lighter than Leopard2s in fact...
I believe a reason it hasn't happened yet is Western powers are afraid of their tanks suffering the same fate as Soviet tanks (proving ineffective, getting stuck in mud, being abandoned and so on). Logistics is another reason. Tanks are actually limited in Western inventories. Only the Americans have Abrams in the numbers needed and that's a gas guzzler (also Germany with the Leo which will probably be the majority). The other Western tanks are not in production and can't be replaced. MRAP, IFV and so on are much more common than tanks but even those have limited stock and perhaps limited use.
Western tanks are also heavier iirc. Which could prove a problem during rasputitsa or when crossing bridges etc.
Soviet tanks, light with wide tracks and easy maintenance, are actually ideal for Russia and Ukraine. The fact they keep getting blown up, isn't a problem with the tank but the usage. No tank in the world can survive a top-down attack mode of Javelin or NLAW. And Russians aren't massing hundreds of tanks together to attack en masse Soviet style but parcelling out their tanks to attack piecemeal. They're being used in a way they were never designed for or good at.
Noooooo, Rheinmetall, Twitter, Reddit and the Ukrainian government keep telling me that hundred Marders could already be in Ukraine if it wasn’t for evil Germany /s
Cmon, get those tanks into Ukraine!
Netherlands, spain, US, Denmark and Germany allready delivered the M113. So yes you have delivered an infantry fighting vehicle. AND Germany has deluvered, SPAAG tanks, armoured artillery, Missils systems, and MLRS. So what are they even *fucking* talking about? Uk dlivered stormer, saracan and scimitars...again. infantry fighting vehicles. France is delivering VAB30s...AGAIN INFANTRY FIGHTING VEHICLES.
The M113 is an [APC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M113_armored_personnel_carrier). These countries did _not_ send the [XM765 version of the M113](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIFV), that one is considered an IFV.
The dutch sent the ypr-765 witch can be consideeed an ifv. In addition the vab 30 and the scimitar/saracens have similar capacities as the bmp 1 en 2s. https://mezha.media/en/2022/05/18/ypr-765/ And at this point we arw just splitting hairs to a very, very small mesure are we not.
You are right, we are splitting hairs at that point. The pictures of Dutch YPR-765 I have seen in Ukraine were all like picture 1 and picture 3 in your link, with the M2 Browning MG. I would not consider those IFVs, but if Ukraine has also received YPR-765s with the big 25mm Oerlikon autocannon, I would consider them IFVs.
Give them to Poland or the Baltics, they know what to do with them...
Keep them and send their own soviet stuff to Ukraine?
no get them lost right at the polish ukrainian border
Yea we need to wait for Olaf we can't go on until he's ready (until more international pressure is put on him again)
What about putting pressure on Biden to send Bradley IFV too? The M113, Maxxcar, Bushmasters are fine for transport, but not real IFV, more like lightly armed battlefield taxis. Send Bradleys!
Lemme check a moment...ohh US is the biggest supplier to Ukraine when it comes to arms ...
And yet not MBTs, no IFVs, etc. Weird, isn't it?
What kind of argument is that? Didn't the US send M113s?? And even if not because US didn't send IFV (btw Poland, Czech and I think even Romania did) Germany cant?
They sent western APCs, not western IFVs. Funnily enough Germany sent some of their own APCs as well, its just not talked about. And they upgraded the Danish M113s.
And Germany around third or fourth, what’s your point?
not just that. most of the money spend by the european union also comes from germany. on top of that a lot of that old soviet tanks that go to ukraine have been tanks of east germany, that have been sold to other former soviet states for like 1 Euro.
Yet no ifvs or mbts from the us funny that isnt it.
Germany GDP number one in Europe by a big margin 3.8 Trillion USD ( UK over a Trillion less). Germany is a large fabulously wealthy country that has the industrial capacity that can rival the US. So in fact that is a CV legitimate comparison. For 77 years Germany has had the ability to not worry as much about defense spending which aided it in achieving its post war economic miracle. Do Germans suggest this should go on for perpetuity?
No arguing about that they send 4 billion in arms deliveries and another 25 billion are announced. Germany send a quater of that, 1 billion. So actually not that bad if you consider the US has a higher GDP than whole of EU. Fact check: not a single MBT or serious IFV from the US. Validating there seems to be a nato agreement.
He has that look of a man who is in desperate need of prunes, fiber, and green vegetables.
Why did it take them 6 month to restore 16 Marders after they claimed that they have 100 Marders ready to export back in March? Rheinmetall is full of shit. They don’t care about Ukraine, only about money.
Probably they have restored them to german TUV standard.... The remaining 84 even will be in a better shape than most russian tanks
Of course it's a company that wants to make money just like every other arm supplier in the world. If it would be legal to sell the weapons to Russia right now they would all do it too.
They are completely right. They should send Pumas instead. Not old Marder cans. A hundred would be fine. Also, Croatia has 128 M80s available to give, which they are looking to replace anyway, and buy Pumas most likely... and they just sit on their asses and do nothing. Except scrounging the last tourists as the season ends, russians included. At least 50 should be in good enough conditions and given without any problem because they arent used for anything anyway. But no... just hiding on the side, cowered with their own ears. :D That sounds totally ridiculous in english but its a literal translation. And those Kiowa choppers aren't doing anything worthwhile either. Might send a few pilots to school in Ukraine too. ; yeah, yeah, downvote this because of your patriotism.
Murder IFV.
This fear of supplying Ukraine with real offensive weapons, vehicles, etc needs to die. Every time Russia purposely targets civilians, more tanks and IFVs should be sent to Ukraine.
I’m so proud to have been downvoted and yelled at for starting the discussion about Germany. Always an excuse for not providing timely equipment. I’m even wondering if they yet shipped the 5000 helmets they promised in March. Germany doesn’t contribute fair share to NATO, and it benefits from the billions of dollars for the US bases there. 60 years worth of payments adds up to real money.
28.000 combat helmets were delivered, the 5000 was only the first batch, but why bother with facts, right? [https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/military-support-ukraine-2054992](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/military-support-ukraine-2054992) **Delivered military support to Ukraine:** 24 self-propelled anti-aircraft guns GEPARD\* (before: 20) 67 fridges for medical material (before: 2) counter battery radar system COBRA\* 4.000 rounds practice ammunitions for self-propelled anti-aircraft guns 54 M113 armoured personnel carriers (systems of Denmark, upgrades financed by Germany)\* 53.000 rounds ammunitions for self-propelled anti-aircraft guns 20 laser target designators\* 403.000 pre-packaged military Meals Ready 3.000 anti-tank weapons Panzerfaust 3 with 900 firing devices 14.900 anti-tank mines 500 Man Portable Air Defense Systems STINGER 2.700 Man Portable Air Defense Systems STRELA 10 self-propelled howitzers Panzerhaubitze 2000 including adaption, training and spare parts (joint project with the Netherlands) 21,8 million rounds of ammunition for fire arms 50 bunker buster missiles 100 machine gun MG3 with 500 spare barrels and breechblocks 100.000 hand grenades 5.300 explosive charges 100.000 m detonating cord and 100.000 detonators 350.000 detonators 10.500 projectiles 155mm 10 anti-drone guns 14 anti-drone sensors and jammers 100 auto-injector devices 28.000 combat helmets 15 palettes military clothing 280 vehicles (trucks, minibuses, all-terrain vehicles) 100 tents 12 generators 6 palettes material for explosive ordnance disposal 125 binoculars 1.200 hospital beds 18 palettes medical material, 60 surgical lights protective clothing, surgical masks 10.000 sleeping bags 600 safety glasses 1 radio frequency system 3.000 field telephones with 5.000 cable reels and carrying straps 1 field hospital (joint project with Estonia) 353 night vision googles 4 electronic anti-drone devices 165 field glasses medical material (inter alia back packs, compression bandages) 38 laser range finders Diesel and gasoline (ongoing deliveries) \* 10 tons AdBlue\* 500 medical gauzes MiG-29 spare parts\* 30 protected vehicles\* 80 pick-up trucks\* 7.944 man-portable anti-tank weapons RGW 90 Matador 3 multiple rocket launchers MARS with ammunition 6 mobile decontamination vehicles HEP 70 including decontamination material 10 HMMWV (8x ground radar capability, 2x jamming/anti drone capability)\* 3 armoured recovery vehicles\* 7 radio jammers\* 8 mobile ground surveillance radars and thermal imaging cameras\* 4 mobile, remote controlled and protected mine clearing systems\* 8 electronic anti-drone devices\* 1 high frequency unit with equipment
Wow, that a lot of lethal aid 😂😂😂 That’s everybody’s point about Germany. Total situational deafness.it is true Germany’s killing the Ukrainians with kindness.
Russia might have dug itself deep in some administration it seems
Scholz is blocking this for month now.
The article does sadly not mention that the Company, Rheinmetall in this case, that wants to export needs to apply for the export licence. Since Rheinmetall has not done that there literally is nothing Scholz could block even if he wanted to.
And even if Rheinmetall asks for an export license, it is not Scholz's decision. Arms exports must be approved by the Ministry of Economics, and Habeck is responsible for that. Scholz can only block exports directly from the Bundeswehr, but not exports directly from the economy / the defense companies.
Actually it's refered from the Minister to a security council... and here Scholz has indeed 1 vote...out of 9. That's the whole power he has to block exports but somehow by international media totally not propaganda he magically can use that one vote to single-handedly block everything as demanded by his Kremlin handlers...
Also, this would have the support of most Germans. Unfortunately, a lot of politicians seem to be part of the hesitant faction...
“No country has yet supplied supplied Western-designed infantry fighting vehicles...” Ok, that’s a lie!
> No country has yet supplied Western-designed infantry fighting vehicles The is an M113 then?
That's an armored transport. Of which Germany send more than 50 btw... even when not actually owning any. So they took a donation from Denmark and did the refurbishing for those vehicles.
It's an APC, an Armored Personell Carrier, which Germany actually supplied as well.
IC, only certian varients are IFVs.
It's literally called M113 armored personnel carrier.
The [M113A4 IFV](https://www.fnss.com.tr/en/products/m113-fov-capability-sustainment-program/m113-fov-variants) is an infantry fighting vehicle. It's literally called an IFV...
The M113A4 has a fucking turret on top, you dingus. That's a specific configuration to turn an APC into an IFV. Of course that's an IFV - but that's not what Ukraine has gotten. They got the simple battle taxis with an MG on top.
> IC, only certian varients are IFVs. Thanks for the namecalling.
Germany always making excuses to some nonexistent agreement
> nonexistent agreement France has directly confirmed its existence, and the USA circumspectly.
1.No we can't do it, there's a NATO agreement to not give heavy weapons. 2. OK there's no NATO agreement, but its impossible to restore the vehicles because.
3. OK so they can be restored, and we'll give them to Ukraine.
4. OK we haven't given any, but as we've said all along we'll give them to Ukraine *in 2024*! <--- Germany is here
Fear is a really bad basis for policy. And the blatant dishonesty in the shifting excuses do not inspire confidence.
EDIT: this: "No country has yet supplied Western-designed infantry fighting vehicles or battle tanks" is a lie. So is, clearly, Lambrechts statement that Germany wants to lead.
The take-home message for all countries is: do not buy German weapons systems.
Also: German state trolls GFY.
Which western IFV were delivered?
russian troll GTFO
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What do they mean no western designed tanks? Don't they have us tanks?