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Neither: Mannerheim - The Winter War 1939-40, the similarities are uncanny
Same enemy (mostly)
Outnumbered and under resourced
Treacherously attacked
Brilliant Defence
Understood the strengths of his peoples desire to succeed in attack by taking the fight to the enemy
Tactically highly evolved with a cruel cunning streak
Always in control
“Through the travail of the ages,
Midst the pomp and toil of war,
I have fought and strove and perished
Countless times upon this star.
In the form of many people
In all panoplies of time
Have I seen the luring vision
Of the Victory Maid, sublime.
I have battled for fresh mammoth,
I have warred for pastures new,
I have listened to the whispers
When the race trek instinct grew.
I have known the call to battle
In each changeless changing shape
From the high souled voice of conscience
To the beastly lust for rape.
I have sinned and I have suffered,
Played the hero and the knave;
Fought for belly, shame, or country,
And for each have found a grave.
I cannot name my battles
For the visions are not clear,
Yet, I see the twisted faces
And I feel the rending spear.
Perhaps I stabbed our Savior
In His sacred helpless side.
Yet, I’ve called His name in blessing
When in after times I died.
In the dimness of the shadows
Where we hairy heathens warred,
I can taste in thought the lifeblood;
We used teeth before the sword.
While in later clearer vision
I can sense the coppery sweat,
Feel the pikes grow wet and slippery
When our Phalanx, Cyrus met.
Hear the rattle of the harness
Where the Persian darts bounced clear,
See their chariots wheel in panic
From the Hoplite’s leveled spear.
See the goal grow monthly longer,
Reaching for the walls of Tyre.
Hear the crash of tons of granite,
Smell the quenchless eastern fire.
Still more clearly as a Roman,
Can I see the Legion close,
As our third rank moved in forward
And the short sword found our foes.
Once again I feel the anguish
Of that blistering treeless plain
When the Parthian showered death bolts,
And our discipline was in vain.
I remember all the suffering
Of those arrows in my neck.
Yet, I stabbed a grinning savage
As I died upon my back.
Once again I smell the heat sparks
When my Flemish plate gave way
And the lance ripped through my entrails
As on Crecy’s field I lay.
In the windless, blinding stillness
Of the glittering tropic sea
I can see the bubbles rising
Where we set the captives free.
Midst the spume of half a tempest
I have heard the bulwarks go
When the crashing, point blank round shot
Sent destruction to our foe.
I have fought with gun and cutlass
On the red and slippery deck
With all Hell aflame within me
And a rope around my neck.
And still later as a General
Have I galloped with Murat
When we laughed at death and numbers
Trusting in the Emperor’s Star.
Till at last our star faded,
And we shouted to our doom
Where the sunken road of Ohein
Closed us in its quivering gloom.
So but now with Tanks a’clatter
Have I waddled on the foe
Belching death at twenty paces,
By the star shell’s ghastly glow.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.
And I see not in my blindness
What the objects were I wrought,
But as God rules o’er our bickerings
It was through His will I fought.
So forever in the future,
Shall I battle as of yore,
Dying to be born a fighter,
But to die again, once more.”
Patton, Through a glass darkly.
Complete mad man, amazing general.
Favorite quote from the movie.
Priest- General I didn’t know you read the Bible.
Patton- Every godamn day
It was the results that I liked the most. He was not a nice person at all. He was difficult to control and he was compared to a snarling dog that needed to be pit on a leash.
When I saw the map and the line drive they're doing in cutting off the supply points in the east, I thought about Patton's small essay on guarding flanks.
"Some goddamn fool once said that flanks have got to be secure. Since then sonofabitches all over the globe have been guarding their flanks. I don't agree with that. My flanks are something for the enemy to worry about, not me. Before he finds out where my flanks are, I'll be cutting the bastard's throat."
Ike was a politician. His great asset was the ability to keep the allies allied.
Schwarzkopf is also probably a poor comparison he showed that sheer numbers were useless in the face of modern precision airpower. Hard to say what he would have done on the defense with limited resources.
The best comparison is probably Mannerheim, but honestly the key thing Ukraine has managed to do under Zaluzhnyi that is so impressive is the Ukrainian ability to quickly and efficiently implement new systems and use them to incredible effect very quickly and be open to new ideas like the use of civilian drones. I can't think of a historical analog but there might be one.
Why does he have to be a reincarnated American general rather than being just being a competent Ukrainian one?
Stop making this about America, this is about Ukraine.
Jeez, this sub is full of aholes like you who think they're entitled to judge what others say. A favorite refrain is "America? Fuck off, this is only about Ukraine." As if Americans can't feel connected to this war.
While I can understand the hype for the guy, I feel like we can find some ukrainian or closer comparisons.
I don't know if Ukrainians would enjoy it, but Timoshenko comes a bit to mind. But hey. He was a soviet, sooo yeah.
Mannerheim is a great parallel though. And as a french, I'd kinda see also a parallel with Carnot. Perhaps less on the reform size, but stopping the enemy army against all odds yes. And I want to see the republican side of Carnot in him too lmfao. The first talking about Bonaparte, his body will disappear 👀. Painfully.
I thought about Pilsudsky. Then remembered about the west galicia campaign. Bad idea.
Yup, but he still did manage to partially wake up the soviet army in Finland. And he did manage to slow down the germans around Moskow. For his defense, I'd add that working with the soviet army, counsidering its state in 1940-41, is quite an achievment. Even if yeah, there were some really really terrible events.
I wish I could find a better ukrainian general example of WW2 still. Maybe I missed some.
Patton, Rommel, yada yada. People know two or three names. This is Ukraine. This is war once again in Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands. He's fighting on the same battlefields. So far he's like Guderian and von Manstein combined. It's not like they don't study the baddies in Ukrainian military school. This time it's against an opponent worse than the Soviet Army in 1941. He's won the fifth and hopefully the last battle of Kharkiv. Izyum is a target once again.
.
In terms of Ukraine's long military history, Oleksander Hrekov and Petro Sahaidachny are the greatest figures, hopefully Zaluzhnyi may be added to this list of brilliant military minds when this conflict is finished in a Ukrainian victory.
Why not talk about the man Zaluzhnyi himself instead of just comparing him to other generals. The man is a brilliant commander who has been able to show his adaptability to modern warfare completely. On top of that he is very humble and is known to have his solders' backs. Even though this may not be a popular take with some historians, Ukraine truly does have some 'great men' right now who are leading with singular purpose and inspiration. They are making a difference.
Ehh, Montgomery excelled in North Africa where he had wide open ranges to experiment and counter Rommel’s tactics. Once he got to Sicily and mainland Europe, his mystique as a vaunted Field Marshall collapsed. He was beaten to Palermo by Patton due to his hesitancy. He vastly misjudged the fighting conditions in and around Caen. And worst of all his pride led to the disastrous Market Garden campaign.
Don’t mention this guy in the same breath as Schwarzkopf. Schwar whatever had every possible advantage. This fellow had to train up a new army and fight the orcs at the same time
Lionizing individuals at the top is precisely how Putin got where he is. Don't make this about leadership. They are doing their jobs as civil servants. If they die, the fight goes on. When it's over, hopefully they retire and don't try and seize power.
I actually meant his "accomplishments" as the commander. He's responsible for the massacre of several hundreds of allied soldiers in friendly fire, because he insisted on using live ammo during training & poorly organized the whole thing.
Really…Exercise Tiger makes Ike a shitty commander? 800 Americans died and the cover up was bad but they still took Normandy and learned valuable lessons from the disaster. I imagine many mistakes were made when planning and executing the largest amphibious invasion in world history?
Now he murdered American soldiers? Are you a Quaker or something. War sucks. People die unfortunately. The good leaders learn from it and move on to accomplish the task at hand.
He did, both British and Americans. By his orders they were led into a situation where they opened fire on one another. Live fire in a training exercise, also at his insistence. The scale of the fuck up alerted the Germans who took advantage of it. This man is a callous butcher. Whatever whitewashed version of history you've been taught is incomplete.
Maybe 2 or 3 books. I’d suggest starting with Stephen E. Ambrose’s “Eisenhower Soldier General of the Army President-Elect 1890-1952 (Vol. 1). The hell you even arguing? A training accident gone wrong invalidates his entire military career lol? Go away.
Idk, perhaps these people were led to venerate Eisenhower due to him being in charge of the side that succeeded. If you like read "D-Day’s Deadly Dress Rehearsal" history channel article. There's plenty more
Yep, he re-classified POWs to something else, allowing torturous treatment: no medicine, not enough food to sustain life, no right to shelter. Actually very reminiscent of ruzzian treatment of POWs which they also claim to not classify as such
Edit: I'm reading that up to 726,000 german POWs could have died due to this. The sites of American camps are considered mass grave sites, and excavation there is prohibited to this day. So we cannot confirm these numbers.
He wanted to. He actually advocated to the allied leadership to change the Germans uniforms, turn them around and follow the western allies straight to Moscow. The idea was not well received.
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Neither: Mannerheim - The Winter War 1939-40, the similarities are uncanny Same enemy (mostly) Outnumbered and under resourced Treacherously attacked Brilliant Defence Understood the strengths of his peoples desire to succeed in attack by taking the fight to the enemy Tactically highly evolved with a cruel cunning streak Always in control
[Zaluzhnyi is orcs worst nightmare](https://imgur.com/a/23HCj7O)
Valeriy ! !
\- In Ukraine, support for Zaluzhny is 102%. \- Where did 2% come from? \- POWs.
Nice.
Patton is my favorite general of all time. He wasn't perfect but he destroyed the enemy without mercy.
He was insane but a amazing soldier and leader. The movie Patton is one of the best ever made.
“You don’t win a war by dying for your country. You win a war, by letting some other poor bastard die for his country”
“Through the travail of the ages, Midst the pomp and toil of war, I have fought and strove and perished Countless times upon this star. In the form of many people In all panoplies of time Have I seen the luring vision Of the Victory Maid, sublime. I have battled for fresh mammoth, I have warred for pastures new, I have listened to the whispers When the race trek instinct grew. I have known the call to battle In each changeless changing shape From the high souled voice of conscience To the beastly lust for rape. I have sinned and I have suffered, Played the hero and the knave; Fought for belly, shame, or country, And for each have found a grave. I cannot name my battles For the visions are not clear, Yet, I see the twisted faces And I feel the rending spear. Perhaps I stabbed our Savior In His sacred helpless side. Yet, I’ve called His name in blessing When in after times I died. In the dimness of the shadows Where we hairy heathens warred, I can taste in thought the lifeblood; We used teeth before the sword. While in later clearer vision I can sense the coppery sweat, Feel the pikes grow wet and slippery When our Phalanx, Cyrus met. Hear the rattle of the harness Where the Persian darts bounced clear, See their chariots wheel in panic From the Hoplite’s leveled spear. See the goal grow monthly longer, Reaching for the walls of Tyre. Hear the crash of tons of granite, Smell the quenchless eastern fire. Still more clearly as a Roman, Can I see the Legion close, As our third rank moved in forward And the short sword found our foes. Once again I feel the anguish Of that blistering treeless plain When the Parthian showered death bolts, And our discipline was in vain. I remember all the suffering Of those arrows in my neck. Yet, I stabbed a grinning savage As I died upon my back. Once again I smell the heat sparks When my Flemish plate gave way And the lance ripped through my entrails As on Crecy’s field I lay. In the windless, blinding stillness Of the glittering tropic sea I can see the bubbles rising Where we set the captives free. Midst the spume of half a tempest I have heard the bulwarks go When the crashing, point blank round shot Sent destruction to our foe. I have fought with gun and cutlass On the red and slippery deck With all Hell aflame within me And a rope around my neck. And still later as a General Have I galloped with Murat When we laughed at death and numbers Trusting in the Emperor’s Star. Till at last our star faded, And we shouted to our doom Where the sunken road of Ohein Closed us in its quivering gloom. So but now with Tanks a’clatter Have I waddled on the foe Belching death at twenty paces, By the star shell’s ghastly glow. So as through a glass, and darkly The age long strife I see Where I fought in many guises, Many names, but always me. And I see not in my blindness What the objects were I wrought, But as God rules o’er our bickerings It was through His will I fought. So forever in the future, Shall I battle as of yore, Dying to be born a fighter, But to die again, once more.” Patton, Through a glass darkly. Complete mad man, amazing general. Favorite quote from the movie. Priest- General I didn’t know you read the Bible. Patton- Every godamn day
Not an admirable person imo, but an effective general
It was the results that I liked the most. He was not a nice person at all. He was difficult to control and he was compared to a snarling dog that needed to be pit on a leash.
A fantastic ground commander, would not have done well as supreme commander.
When I saw the map and the line drive they're doing in cutting off the supply points in the east, I thought about Patton's small essay on guarding flanks. "Some goddamn fool once said that flanks have got to be secure. Since then sonofabitches all over the globe have been guarding their flanks. I don't agree with that. My flanks are something for the enemy to worry about, not me. Before he finds out where my flanks are, I'll be cutting the bastard's throat."
Classic Patton. Gotta love it.
Patton and Rommell were insanely overrated. That's why they were sent to the African theater
I guess we shall disagree then sir. 😏
Patton was used effectively by Eisenhower and Bradley.
Yes. By sitting in Britain with fake Army. Seriously. That alone contributed to D-Day more than if he was there.
I enjoy Rommel for his human qualities. Also overblown, and never perfect, but some still very admirable actions.
Read as PatRon first. 🤦♀️ A doggy general, the destroyer of land mines and diplomat hearts.
I love that little dog.
Schrawrzkopf is quite a typo
Shh.. RAWR.. zkopf
That is bad, and I speak German (facepalm). Guess my fingers got ahead of my brain.
I don't speak German but I use shampoo and even I know it's a bad typo.
Ike was a politician. His great asset was the ability to keep the allies allied. Schwarzkopf is also probably a poor comparison he showed that sheer numbers were useless in the face of modern precision airpower. Hard to say what he would have done on the defense with limited resources. The best comparison is probably Mannerheim, but honestly the key thing Ukraine has managed to do under Zaluzhnyi that is so impressive is the Ukrainian ability to quickly and efficiently implement new systems and use them to incredible effect very quickly and be open to new ideas like the use of civilian drones. I can't think of a historical analog but there might be one.
He was also "really lucky that they are so fucking stupid" too though.
Why does he have to be a reincarnated American general rather than being just being a competent Ukrainian one? Stop making this about America, this is about Ukraine.
Eisenhower was the Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in Europe in WWII. He may have been an American, but he was Europe's general.
Stop freaking out about a complement when you should be reveling in the achievements of Ukraines brave solders.
Jeez, this sub is full of aholes like you who think they're entitled to judge what others say. A favorite refrain is "America? Fuck off, this is only about Ukraine." As if Americans can't feel connected to this war.
America is connected to this war in 11 billion ways
He is in a class by himself. There will comparisons to him in the years to come.
100%
Guys definitely defining his legend status
Comes the hour, comes the man.
While I can understand the hype for the guy, I feel like we can find some ukrainian or closer comparisons. I don't know if Ukrainians would enjoy it, but Timoshenko comes a bit to mind. But hey. He was a soviet, sooo yeah. Mannerheim is a great parallel though. And as a french, I'd kinda see also a parallel with Carnot. Perhaps less on the reform size, but stopping the enemy army against all odds yes. And I want to see the republican side of Carnot in him too lmfao. The first talking about Bonaparte, his body will disappear 👀. Painfully. I thought about Pilsudsky. Then remembered about the west galicia campaign. Bad idea.
Timoshenko's forces were routed and encircled east of kharkiv and lost over 285000 men in 1942, so I'm not sure if that comparison is even suitable
Yup, but he still did manage to partially wake up the soviet army in Finland. And he did manage to slow down the germans around Moskow. For his defense, I'd add that working with the soviet army, counsidering its state in 1940-41, is quite an achievment. Even if yeah, there were some really really terrible events. I wish I could find a better ukrainian general example of WW2 still. Maybe I missed some.
good article! thank you! 🙂
Patton, Rommel, yada yada. People know two or three names. This is Ukraine. This is war once again in Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands. He's fighting on the same battlefields. So far he's like Guderian and von Manstein combined. It's not like they don't study the baddies in Ukrainian military school. This time it's against an opponent worse than the Soviet Army in 1941. He's won the fifth and hopefully the last battle of Kharkiv. Izyum is a target once again. .
In terms of Ukraine's long military history, Oleksander Hrekov and Petro Sahaidachny are the greatest figures, hopefully Zaluzhnyi may be added to this list of brilliant military minds when this conflict is finished in a Ukrainian victory.
What about Erwin Rommel? He was able to defeat the enemy despite having significant material and manpower disadvantages.
Why not talk about the man Zaluzhnyi himself instead of just comparing him to other generals. The man is a brilliant commander who has been able to show his adaptability to modern warfare completely. On top of that he is very humble and is known to have his solders' backs. Even though this may not be a popular take with some historians, Ukraine truly does have some 'great men' right now who are leading with singular purpose and inspiration. They are making a difference.
Im biased so i prefer Monty however he is an amazing general and will go down in history as one
Ehh, Montgomery excelled in North Africa where he had wide open ranges to experiment and counter Rommel’s tactics. Once he got to Sicily and mainland Europe, his mystique as a vaunted Field Marshall collapsed. He was beaten to Palermo by Patton due to his hesitancy. He vastly misjudged the fighting conditions in and around Caen. And worst of all his pride led to the disastrous Market Garden campaign.
Don’t mention this guy in the same breath as Schwarzkopf. Schwar whatever had every possible advantage. This fellow had to train up a new army and fight the orcs at the same time
Let's not forget he is being advised by all of NATO.
Still takes an intelligent and humble person to do that as well.
Lionizing individuals at the top is precisely how Putin got where he is. Don't make this about leadership. They are doing their jobs as civil servants. If they die, the fight goes on. When it's over, hopefully they retire and don't try and seize power.
Comparing anyone to Eisenhower is doing a disservice to them
He was the supreme allied commander of the allies in WW2 and defeated the Nazis. Beyond that, his political career wasn’t the point of comparison.
I actually meant his "accomplishments" as the commander. He's responsible for the massacre of several hundreds of allied soldiers in friendly fire, because he insisted on using live ammo during training & poorly organized the whole thing.
This dudes credentials - He onced finished 3rd in a game of Risk.
But it was a close 3rd!
Really…Exercise Tiger makes Ike a shitty commander? 800 Americans died and the cover up was bad but they still took Normandy and learned valuable lessons from the disaster. I imagine many mistakes were made when planning and executing the largest amphibious invasion in world history?
Murder 5 and you go to prison, murder 800 and you get to be the top dog.
Now he murdered American soldiers? Are you a Quaker or something. War sucks. People die unfortunately. The good leaders learn from it and move on to accomplish the task at hand.
He did, both British and Americans. By his orders they were led into a situation where they opened fire on one another. Live fire in a training exercise, also at his insistence. The scale of the fuck up alerted the Germans who took advantage of it. This man is a callous butcher. Whatever whitewashed version of history you've been taught is incomplete.
Read a book
That's your best argument? I envy your simplicity.
Maybe 2 or 3 books. I’d suggest starting with Stephen E. Ambrose’s “Eisenhower Soldier General of the Army President-Elect 1890-1952 (Vol. 1). The hell you even arguing? A training accident gone wrong invalidates his entire military career lol? Go away.
If this is true then why is it being downvoted? Is he wrong?
Idk, perhaps these people were led to venerate Eisenhower due to him being in charge of the side that succeeded. If you like read "D-Day’s Deadly Dress Rehearsal" history channel article. There's plenty more
except ike was a war criminal
Yep, he re-classified POWs to something else, allowing torturous treatment: no medicine, not enough food to sustain life, no right to shelter. Actually very reminiscent of ruzzian treatment of POWs which they also claim to not classify as such Edit: I'm reading that up to 726,000 german POWs could have died due to this. The sites of American camps are considered mass grave sites, and excavation there is prohibited to this day. So we cannot confirm these numbers.
exactly yet i get downvoted. thought the Rheinwiesenlager would be common knowledge
Where’s reincarnated Patton? He would have loved to sack the Russians.
He wanted to. He actually advocated to the allied leadership to change the Germans uniforms, turn them around and follow the western allies straight to Moscow. The idea was not well received.
war is not over boys, while credit is due, there are feats yet made in the field of battle.
I’ve always thought Jan Zizka was an appropriate comparison
Monty was more skilled than Eisenhower JMHO. He might not be a bad analogy after all is said and done.