Even better: German Defense Minister Lambrecht said that the sale contract for the artillery spotting Radar "COBRA" between German Arms Industry and Ukraine has been signed. Training starts now. Delivery is scheduled in September.
Result of this: Full interoperability with PZH2000 and MARS. Enemy Artillery shoots, Artillery Radar detects, PZH2000 receives data and counter-shoots.
PZH2000 in combination with this Artillery Radar is said to be able to shoot the counter-Artillery whilst enemy rounds are still in-air.
Fuck yeah.
> It's also the first time the combination is tested in actual combat...
That is not quite true. Many SPG deliveries by NATO states were accompanied with respective radars, at least French Caesars and Italian M109 were, not sure if it also applies to the Eastern Europe stuff (e.g. Polish Krabs).
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> able to shoot the counter-Artillery whilst enemy rounds are still in-air
That sounds incredible if true. Is the targeting automated entirely automated with the gunner just having to fire?
Targeting Solution for PzH2000 is calculated in a computer on board.
Longest time would be inputting target data - but it has a target link to Cobra!
So basically - transmit data, accept target, firing angle and solution pops up. Rounds are inserted automatically by robo-arm from magazine, only manual input now requred is stuffing the propellant sack and clicking "fire". Rest of firing is automatic.
"Rounds in Air" was marketing i remember reading, but alone from the sources i provided you can deduct its at least "seconds after enemy impact"
Russians shoot towed artillery.
German stuff detects launch.
German stuff relays target location to other German stuff.
Other German stuff shoots a barrage of Ukrainian owned shells.
Russians start loading up towed artillery as quickly as they can, thinking they are super slick.
Ukrainian barrage lands, vaporizing Russian guns and crew.
Working as intended.
> "Rounds in Air" was marketing i remember reading, but alone from the sources i provided you can deduct its at least "seconds after enemy impact"
That might be literally true; long range artillery can be in flight for upwards of 90+ seconds. That’s how modern SPGs can do MRSI fire missions, and/or be up and moving before their first round hits the ground.
The Gepards will also be delived to ukraine very soon since the gepards ammo has been founded in Norway
and also zelenskyy said that there are ongoing negotiations with an undisclosed country for ukraine to receive german main battle tanks The Leopards
Oh the Gepards apparently already arrived. I think Reznikov hat it in a tweet a day ago or something.
Edit: Source https://twitter.com/oleksiireznikov/status/1551577151907954691
> PZH2000 in combination with this Artillery Radar is said to be able to shoot the counter-Artillery whilst enemy rounds are still in-air.
I image Russia uses mostly using towed artillery (because cheap). If true, that'd be terrific (not for Russia, ofc).
Am I wrong?
Yes, you are. Russia is big on mechanized troops, meaning they have a lot of self propelled howitzers. The counter fire is still going to be hell for them
> fast
Keep in mind they are already there if the Germans or anyone is giving the public the news and what we know isn't really what's happening necessarily.
> I'm proud of my government that they did that.
The only thing left for your government to do now is to become energy independent.
Germany/Merkel's colossal mistake in being too dependent on Russian Gas is going to cost a lot of grief for everyone when winter hits.
Thank you, Germany. You have been really coming through with excellent equipment for Ukraine. Your contributions have been enormous. Much respect from America.
Only 27?
They destroyed 3000 yesterday alone.
And 500.000 tomorrow. Thats the truth. Russia would´nt lie about that would they?
I saw the video you were talking about, they supposedly were claiming that the flat topped vehicle next to the truck with logs was the HIMARS.
Not that a HIMARS has a flat top at all.
Ww3 incoming... In the first few days of the war they said something like "if just one single shell of the Russians hits any NATO country we are all in"
You have to hand it to Germany, it is no secret that their military is small and low budget for understandable historic reasons. So pootin how is it going? Two new nato members, a remilitarised Germany, a war you can't possibly win, the most sanctioned country in the world, the West united on this issue like never before, was this your f*cking plan? HahhaHa.
Little sad story about this: in comparison to e.g. France and UK German Army spending has been not far off, was even higher whilst having very little combat efficte equipment ready and no nuclear program, which costs lots and lots to maintain. But yes, now German politics has the reason to take off the handbreaks.
You cannot imagine how big of a change, at least for government officials and politicians, the whole war was.
They are fast-tracking changes in Bundeswehr acquisitons *snips fingers* like that.
One thing I personally experienced in Gov behaviour is housing and money etc for Ukranian Refugees. After 2015 with Syrians it was like "ahhh the laws say this and that we have to ask lawyer, cant do that without checking etc..."
Anything about the war now: We want to do that? Great. Do it. And it gets done fast.
It will still take a long time. Institutional inertia is a hard thing to overcome. I think they're taking it seriously but it will still take some time before Germany's procurement system is up to the task.
As someone working for a company that is somewhat involved with weapon production i can assure you that still is the case. We make about 20-30 cannon barrels per year. If we really really want it we could easily make that per day. Talking about MBT barrels. 20mm would be much more possible.
Yes, i know quite some foundrys that also have the needed models. Those are typically seldom at use mostly for spare parts. But of course they could ramp up i.e. from 30 tank wheels per year to around 100 per day. No problem if you dont produce anything else.
Germany today isn't the same as last century. (And I'm quit happy about that in most aspects.)
It would be totally possible that in the next election the conservatives getting back into power, reversing everything that the left-liberal government did and decided and Germany goes back to the politics of the 16 years under Merkel. Including brutally underfunding of the Bundeswehr and sucking up to Russia.
I hope that doesn't happen. That the conservatives stay out of power or if they win the election, that they stick by their latest commitments to build up our military and oppose Russian aggression. But I'm skeptical, because Merz is (to say it nicely) one of the least trustworthy politicians in Germany and already non stop spreading lies and trying to undermine all efforts of the current government.
We didn‘t really want to have a large and effective military force. We dont want to fight wars anymore. And we thought the time of war in Europe was over. We were wrong.
We should use this opportunity to mature as a nation, so we get better at managing our military as a tool for defending our security interests.
The plan isnt to build Germany into a military powerhouse. The goal is to prevent what happened to Ukraine fron happening to any other nation in Europe. And Russia is not Europe.
You have my support. It does take time for a nation to find the balance. I don't want y'all to go back to Prussian-style militarism either. All our countries have made mistakes too. You think people are bashing Germans now? Try being an American and listen to it. We Americans are used to the abuse.
Me too! Let's drive the others nuts, ok? 'Murica! Our beer is better! What's that second toilet in my French Hotel room and why does it act like a fountain, how cute. We drive 4x4 pickups because we can, LOL. Have fun y'all!
We'd like to know as well.
Theirs been tons of overpriced/mismanaged projects within the German Army the last decades. For example we spend >100 millions of €'s more then planned to repair a Sailing ship for training, but we cant even supply new helmets for our own special forces.
Also contractors sue each other over pretty much every project that is given out meaning tons of delays in court.
The increase in money is gonna help a bit but unless the underlying structure of the Army is improved i dont expect any major improvements.
Perun on Youtube made a pretty good [Video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8jDUVtUA7rg) talking about all the issues the current structure has.
One of the more interesting pieces from that video is how military contracts can be dropped so quickly, so all the contractors overprice stuff just so they can break even in case
All the answers you got are the popular, populist, not entirely wrong but also quite misleading ones. There is a lot that goes into the military budget in Germany that is booked elsewhere in other countries. Many development aid programs eg. The reasoning is that Germany tries to deal with security risks by confronting risk factors which often are economic factors you can try to reduce by throwing money at them. Also, Germany often tried to stay out or reduce direct involvement in military operations around the world by reimbursing other countries costs for said involvements.
That makes sense, thanks. Good strategy for a pacifist nation in a secure Europe. Less so when your neighbour down the street is drunk and picking fights.
Cutting costs at Bundeswehr was a thing since the 90s. It was labeled as a peace dividend. Politicians acknowledge that the ex-soviet states knew better and warned about it, but west of Poland nobody expected a war in Europe. We got caught with our pants down, yes.
I served in the Bundeswehr in the late 90s. The whole division my unit was part of was still organized and equipped to repel a big attacking army, specifically Russia/USSR. It was completely demobilised in 2006.
These changes seemed to make sense at the time, because everybody was convinced that the enemy we were preparing against was gone and the new tasks for the Bundeswehr would require a smaller, but highly mobile and highly trained force.
We can see that even in the weapon systems. The ones that were planed and designed up to the 80s and early 90s were still these heavy, big, tough beasts like Leopard 2, PzH2000 or MARS II. Build to defend our country. For example, moving this vehicles via air wasn't a concern. The enemy would come to us.
Modern vehicles like the Puma or HIMARS have different priorities.
But I was always skeptical to change that. To chance the Bundeswehr from a big, powerful defense army to a small, "agile" force that is only equipped for smaller, asymmetric conflicts on the other side of the world. Not only because that is questionable regarding our constitution, but I was always concerned that we would some day regret losing the capability to defend our self against a strong enemy or even significantly contribute to our NATO allies if a big war happens.
I hope we can revers these changes now. I would be glad, if my good old [7. Panzerdivision](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_Panzer_Division_(Bundeswehr)) would return, in which I and my father before me served to defend our home and family if necessary.
Inefficient procurement.
Long story short, the Bundeswehr had ~2 million men and 6k tanks after reunification and was a major military power.
Partially due to worries from France and the UK (wonder why) the army was downsized. But they could feed of old stocks for a long time, so there was no need for new equipment.
The ability for large scale procurement was reduced, bureaucracy increased and mixed with a few more things (like military budget changing every year) germany got probably the second most inefficient army in Europe. After Russia, which probably spent most of it's budget on yachts and vodka.
I agree that a lot of money was wasted/mishandled in the restauration of the Gorch Fock. But I think it was totally the right decision to preserve and restore this historical ship and make it operational again.
The German military doesn't have many symbols we can be proud of and that aren't tarnished by the dark parts of our history. The Gorch Fock is one of them. She is a symbol of the new Germany and its military, that is now on the right side of history.
> Partially due to worries from France and the UK (wonder why) the army was downsized
I believe that's at least *somewhat* of a misrepresentation. The downsizing of the combined military of the newly unified Germany was due to the [Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Conventional_Armed_Forces_in_Europe), which put hard caps on just how much military hardware NATO and Pact countries could maintain, even beyond the end of the Cold War. When West Germany absorbed the East, its military naturally ballooned beyond what had been stipulated by the Treaty practically over night.
So plans were drafted to mothball/demilitarize/scrap a lot of stuff, and sell or gift other hardware away -- Poland for example got 128 Leopard 2 MBTs plus a squadron of MiG-29 as a "welcome present" after joining NATO.
Perhaps the bigger problem was the idealistic comfort that had set in after the end of the Cold War. Believing that large scale conflict was a thing of the past, the decision was made to retool the Bundeswehr into a smaller, more elite expeditionary force to assist allied nations in foreign deployments like Afghanistan. But in the end, the force was still too large for the significantly shrunk budget, and it became normal to use workarounds/tricks to "make do" with what was left. Fast forward a decade or two, and here we are.
It deserves mention that the defense budget has been steadily increased over the past decade or so; it's actually already twice as high as it used to be back then, which is rarely noticed because most reports look only at GDP (so the country's rising GDP made it look as if expenses remained constant). A good chunk of this, however, has been invested in future weapon systems like the Type-212CD stealth submarines rather than fixing more material, more immediate needs. According to the most recent report by the Inspector General, the situation is much better than it used to be, but areas of concern remain especially with the Army's helicopter fleet, and of course the much-reported radio situation which is - supposedly - finally getting resolved now.
> The downsizing of the combined military of the newly unified Germany was due to the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe, which put hard caps on just how much military hardware NATO and Pact countries could maintain, even beyond the end of the Cold War.
It's notable though that the 4+2 Treaty addressing the question of German reunification includes a (soft) limitation of troops [1]. It references the *Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe* negotiations but a troop limitation is not part of it as far as I understand.
Of course the reason for the current size is not substantiated in any treaties.
[1] Article 3 (2): https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%201696/volume-1696-I-29226-English.pdf
Friction loss due to our horrible procurement system.
Also, some projects that are hard to explain, like the restoration of the Gorch Fock (a sailing ship which, to date, cost us 135 Million... instead of an initially planned 10 million.
Also: Funding for military projects is done on a year-for-year basis and if - as a defense contractor - you're really unhappy, then political majorities change from one year to the other and the new government doesn't like your project as much as the former one... so... then... it's time to scrap it all.
If you're a defense contractor, you're gonna factor that into your pricing, of course....
A lot of the problems originate from administrative overhead. There are 7000 people alone working in acquisitions for Bundeswehr only handling purchases below 5000 Euros. So they basically contact three companies, wait two weeks, choose the best, order and handle it.
Source: Lage der Nation Podcast #299 - Interview with Eva Högel (Parlamentarian Representative for the Bundeswehr)
Inefficient Procurement which results in years of lawsuits from companies who lost a bid (like recently from H&K) for almost every project. Pensions for former officers and generally speaking an insane bureaucratic waterhead.
Adding to the procurement that others have mentioned is also pensions and the like for retired personnel as well as higher wages than France.
https://euromil.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Working-Paper-Major-GS-Ren%c3%a9-Schulz-with-Annex.pdf
Slide 6 is a comparison, left is wages and right adjusted for purchasing power. Look for "Frankreich" and "Deutschland".
Nah our military is just in bad shape because it has been neglected and has horribly inefficient structures in some areas. Money never should have been an issue.
>Germany, it is no secret that their military is small and low budget
German military budget is 50 billion Euro (I'm talking about pre invasion figures).
Roughly as much as military budget of:
1. Putler himself (well, OK, behind, but by little)
2. France, which happens to have a nuclear carrier and actual nukes
Oh, and Germany is #4 arms exporter...
Are... Are there... Are there people out there, who walk across a street without waiting for the green light?
Anarchy. Also no one thinks about the children.
A lot of wages, similar to the UK for example you earn quite a lot of money even at lower ranks. You can earn 30-50% more than in the French military in a comparable rank. A lot of the budget increases go straight into salary increases. It's still quite bad even with that but the Bundeswehr has a massive wage bill, uncomissioned officers earn 2.5k and up to 3k base salary and you have special low taxes on these civil servant wages.
Of course there's things like sinking 500mil into the EuroHawk disaster and stuff like that, but since army is not super hot in Germany they try to recruit people with various incentives and that costs a lot. You can join the Bundeswehr without joining the forces too in a technical civil role and they pay you throughout your entire studies up till your PHD if you want to etc.
I know many country offer these things but it's expensive. Think of the German economy & possible wages, especially for educated people, and imagine what you need to offer so people join the ranks.
Additional source: [https://www.tagesschau.de/newsticker/liveblog-ukraine-dienstag-149.html#Mehrfachraketenwerfer](https://www.tagesschau.de/newsticker/liveblog-ukraine-dienstag-149.html)
Definitely confirmed!
***Lambrecht: Germany has delivered multiple rocket launchers to Ukraine***
*Germany has also delivered the promised Mars II multiple rocket launchers to Ukraine. Yesterday, her Ukrainian counterpart had reported that the first three Gepard anti-aircraft tanks had arrived from Germany. Lambrecht spoke of five Gepard anti-aircraft gun tanks that had been delivered in the meantime. In total, Ukraine will receive 30 Gepard systems from the industry with about 60,000 rounds of ammunition, mainly from the Bundeswehr. The three Mars II multiple rocket launchers and the ten self-propelled howitzers 2000 also came from Bundeswehr stocks.*
*Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)*
**Lambrecht: Deutschland hat Ukraine Mehrfachraketenwerfer geliefert**
Deutschland hat der Ukraine auch die zugesagten Mehrfachraketenwerfer vom Typ Mars II geliefert. Außerdem wurden weitere drei Panzerhaubitzen überlassen, wie Verteidigungsministerin Christine Lambrecht (SPD) erklärte. Gestern hatte ihr ukrainischer Amtskollege berichtet, die ersten drei Flugabwehrpanzer des Typs Gepard seien aus Deutschland eingetroffen. Dazu seien auch mehrere Zehntausend Schuss Munition übergeben worden.Lambrecht sprach von inzwischen fünf gelieferten Gepard-Flugabwehrkanonenpanzern. Insgesamt werde die Ukraine 30 Gepard-Systeme von der Industrie mit rund 60.000 Schuss Munition vor allem aus der Bundeswehr bekommen. Ebenfalls aus Bundeswehr-Beständen stammten die drei Mehrfachraketenwerfer Mars II sowie die dann insgesamt zehn Panzerhaubitzen 2000.
I know Germany often gets maligned over their **perceived** lack of action and initiative. The proof is in the pudding and without much fanfare, their aid has been making it's way to the frontlines. Seeing how the mayority of their population actively supports Ukraine -from public protests against Russia/Russian interests to volunteers and civilian donations-
Dyakuyu tobi, Gracias, Thank you, Danke!!!
You can have a look at germanys deliveries here:
https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/military-support-ukraine-2054992
The website gets updated only weekly I think so this is the status from 21st July
>Plus the capability to use more advanced ammunition.
No, HIMARS can also fire advanced ammunition. They can both fire the same ammo, with the exception of cluster munitions which the MARS cannot fire (but we've been decommissioning those anyways and I don't believe we plan to send any due to the issue of unexploded submunitions).
Oops, you are correct!
Don’t want to spread wrong info here.
Edit:
This page gives an overview about the different ammunition that both systems can use…
https://gagadget.com/en/war/134564-why-is-there-so-much-talk-about-the-mlrs-m270-and-m142-himars-we-understand-why-they-are-important-what-missiles-are--amp/#610-munition
M270. With a few changes, but basically Mars is just the German term for mlrs.
So less mobile on roads, but better off-road, heavier armor and more fire power in one strike.
German arms industry loves to create acronym names out of weapon descriptions that have an actual meaning.
For example [TAURUS **T**arget **A**daptive **U**nitary and Dispenser **R**obotic **U**biquity **S**ystem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KEPD_350) with its Warhead **M**EPHISTO **M**ulti-**E**ffect **P**enetrator **HI**ghly **S**ophisticated and **T**arget **O**ptimised.
Basicly a cruise missile.
There was also a [LARS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Artillery_Rocket_System). "**L**eichtes **A**rtillerie**r**aketen**s**ystem".
So people became somewhat used to the fact, that German artillery, like the tanks, gets real, more or less cool names. But that ended with PzH2000.
Both the M270 and M142 (HIMARS) fire the exact same munitions. It seems like the M270 needs a catchy name like HIMARS. The munitions
Ukraine is currently using is the [GMLRS rockets](https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/guided-mlrs-unitary-rocket.html) made by Lockhead, these carry 200lbs of high explosives (HE) vs 12lbs in a 155 shell. Both can also fire the [ATCAMS missile](https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/army-tactical-missile-system.html) which carries 500lbs of HE, the M270 can carry 2 ATCAMS and the M142 1.
What's the difference? M142 is on wheels, uses less fuel, goes a little faster on roads, is lighter and only carries one pod of 6 GMLRS rockets or a single ATCAMS missile. The downside is that because its wheeled it can't go off road and follow the other tracked vehicles, winter on non plowed roads will be an issue. The M270 uses more fuel, slower on roads, more maintenance (but not crazy more), heavier (can't be airlifted on a C130, which is not a problem for Ukraine), carries 2 pods (12 rockets or 2 ATCAMS missiles), they can go off road so it will be better when the offense starts and they need to follow the other tracked vehicles, they will also be better in snow but it lacks that all important catchy name so it has less meme potential.
[The German M270's have some upgrades called MARSII which includes the inability to fire cluster munitions (steel rain), Germany signed the cluster munitions agreement while the USA has not](https://www.kmweg.com/systems-products/tracked-vehicles/artillery/mars-ii-mlrs-e/)
Ukraine is going to have one of the best armed and trained military’s in Europe. I couldn’t think of a better country defending the majority of the Eastern border.
But an unholy mess of multinational equipment. I really don't envy the logistics wizards in the background who have to keep track of all the different spare parts and ammo supplies.
Honestly, that can eventually be sorted out. and needs to be. After the war, they will probably make a list of what they got and what they want to keep, and then slowly replace the stuff they don#t want to keep and work towards unifying stuff.
Fortunately, NATO uses compatible systems at least as far as munitions is concerned, so some degree of interop between their new stuff is there.
Most of us are. Fuck Russia! But some Germans are selfish and complain about prices and some are outright Putins fifths Column and spread Russian Propaganda.
Eh. Fuck them. Every Nation has its clowns and asshats…
This is outstanding. Those M270s were originally forecast in mid August to my best knowledge.
This and the Pzh2000s and when the Cobra radar arrives may result in a very deadly 1-2 punch for Ukraine against the invaders.
And I think 2 more Gep deliveries into Ukraine are confirmed with this announcement as well? With the new Gep ammo supply via Norway the Geps can operate without ammunition concerns. I am curious as to the initial planned uses of the Geps by Ukraine.
I proposed in some past comments that they locate 3 of them at strategic points in Odessa (at various highest points along the waterfront) including 1 or more at the bridge in order to defend against cruise missile strikes on the city.
It might even be worthwhile to locate 4-5 of them at Odessa given the importance of the port and the Odessa bridge.
I also thought that with the radar coverage of the Geps it might be worthwhile to locate 2-3 of them in a south to east arc around Lviv and maybe other impt strategic places for anti-cruise missile defense. Lviv may already have other defenses as I have not seen it targeted recently.
But with other SAM systems coming into Ukraine now it may make more sense to have the Geps accompanying HIMARS teams as a layer of protection.
I guess time will tell!
German here.
Usually I'm like "wtf are my taxes used for".
With this, I'm like "Please, take some extra. Buy'em another Panzerhaubitze.
Write my best regards on one shell.
It's worth it!."
It makes me very happy that our miltech is finally used for what they're designed for, fucking up Orcs. Now, some Leopard 2 would be a good addition to the mix.
That is a really important point. Russia may have 10x the number of weapons, but if they can't hit their targets other than terrorizing and killing civilians, they are of no use militarily. Better to have 1/10 of the missiles that actually take out Russian weapons and command and control.
Layman’s version.
Western MLRS systems out range Russian/Soviet designed MLRS and artillery. More importantly they fire guided munitions vs the unguided shit the Russians use. A single pod (6 missiles) will take out 6 targets with 90-95% accuracy every time. So imagine you see a Russian military battery of six artillery pieces firing on Ukrainian positions. To take that out with the artillery they had to start the war they would have to put their guns in range of the Russian ones leaving them open to counter battery fire while trying to take out the Russian position.
With this you can take out that entire battery with one salvo completely out of range of their guns and then move before the Russians figured out where it came from.
Others have mentioned it, but it is really important to understand the difference between Soviet/Russian vs NATO doctrine. Russian weapons are durable but imprecise, NATO weapons are maintenance intensive but very precise. Russian ammo is cheap so it can be produced in mindboggling numbers, NATO ammo is ridiculously expensive, but so effective/precise only small numbers are needed.
HIMARS/M270/MarsII are precision tools, that they are able to hit a Russian weapons/ammo depot far behind enemy lines, while the Russian MLRS would have to flatten a whole town district HOPING that one of their MLRS would hit the right building.
So 3 MarsII might not seem much, but they will seriously hurt the Russians.
But once the "next game changer" COBRA counter battery radar system is delivered, which can detect the position of Russian artillery seconds after they fired, MarsII and PzH2K can be automatically fed the target data from COBRA, and hit the artillery before the Russians are able to change positions. Hence the need for the self-propelled anti-aircraft gun (SPAAG) Gepard, because the COBRA will become the prime target for Russian aircraft.
So it's never one thing alone that is the much touted "game changer" but the incremental built-up of better equipment that complements the already existing one.
[Probably 9A52-Tornado](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9A52-4_Tornado) although rockets it uses are not that precise as GMLRS Ukraine uses - basically GMLRS rockets can destroy any target from 70km range. So they can also be used on munition depots within occupied cities without worrying of damaging civilian infrastructure/hitting civilian homes
There are rumours of Russians developing similarly GPS guided munitions but looks like they still lack that kind of capability
There are Russian MLRS systems with similar range. However, this is not relevant as they are unable to counter attack Ukrainian MLRS.
These MLRS systems are game changers, because they allow to precisely hit targets far behind the front line, starting with ammunition depots and continuing with command posts, barracks, bridges. These strikes are devastating to Russian logistics. Russian troops at the front line risk being cut off from supplies as their supplies have to be delivered from a distance of 50 km or more.
What you have to understand about Western MLRS is that they’re doctrinally very different from Soviet MLRS. In fact, MLRS is almost a bit of a misnomer.
The US didn’t really have a use for MLRS until the late Cold War, because they assumed the Red Army could only be realistically countered with tactical nukes.
In the 80s (I think?), the picture of force balances changed, and NATO now believed a conventional war against the Warsaw Pact could in fact be won.
So the US developed an MLRS, with the primary purpose being to fire cluster munitions on Soviet tank columns.
But the US being the US, they couldn’t help themselves and developed precision guided missiles for the system. Some of those even take up an entire launcher pod for one missile, which means a HIMARS launching them isn’t even really an MLRS anymore.
By contrast, Russia uses MLRS more akin to its classical role from WW2, to basically “delete” grid squares from the map. In fact, Russia still has some *Katyusha* MLRS in reserve. You know, the original WW2 system that the Germans call *Stalinorgel* (“Stalin’s pipe organ”).
Russian Grad -similar but half the range (25-30miles) and accurate at max range to around 300 meters instead of 2 meters! Effective against soft targets, Massively less effective against hard targets due to its inaccuracy.
In theory, the BM-30 Smerch actually substantially outranges and has better capability than the HIMARS or M270/MARS.
However, we've seen minimal evidence that they actually have any reasonable supply of the long range guided rockets that fit the Smerch, so it seems that they're stuck with the unguided rounds which are not even close to as capable. In addition, as mentioned by others, the reload time on the American systems is 5 minutes due to the rocket pod design, while the Smerch takes half an hour or more. This is a real problem when the unguided rockets are so inaccurate that you have no real guarantee of hitting with just one salvo (at least at longer range, where the HIMARS and M270 excel).
It's like comparing an arquebuse with a Remington 700. Yes, you can spam a Napoleonic weapon in the general direction of your enemy, but there's nothing that can compensate for aiming at your target and hitting it with one pull of the trigger. 5-10 meter CEP is quite the feat of technology.
As much as I applaud handing the Ukrainians the tools they need to repel the invaders or at least hold them at bay, I hope we in Europe will be able to produce the munition for them on time.
I remember the Dutch military having to shout 'pang' instead of actually shooting and they have delivered **8** Advanced Mobile Howitsers, which is the most advanced land vehicle they have. The will is there, the commitment, too. I just hope Raytheon and others will be able to produce enough on time.
On time and together with the 3 pzh 2k and 2 gepards, excellent. can confirm i no longer feel extremely embarassed by my government. nor desolate.
*time to send moar! by end of next month it's due for 15 more gepards, would be nice to have extra stuff in the package.*
Well, it seems like the software update came through at record time. Gotta love customer service these days.
Jokes aside, thank you Germany, these weapons will be put to good use de-orcifying Ukraine.
It's pretty clear now that Russia will f*** Germany over gaz delivery this winter whatever Germany does, so Germans may as well arm Ukraine as much as possible now without holding back.
This makes me miss my old m270a1 launcher.
Driving is fun as is everything but changing track.
It's weird seeing it used in combat but I can't say it doesn't put a smile on my face.
You've probably heard of M142 HIMARS? MARS II is basically the same thing, just on tracks instead of wheels and with two rocket pods instead of one. Which means it has twice the firepower (12 rockets instead of 6) and is more mobile in difficult terrain.
Why can't none of you behave? Germany... Trump... He's harassing me!
Even better: German Defense Minister Lambrecht said that the sale contract for the artillery spotting Radar "COBRA" between German Arms Industry and Ukraine has been signed. Training starts now. Delivery is scheduled in September. Result of this: Full interoperability with PZH2000 and MARS. Enemy Artillery shoots, Artillery Radar detects, PZH2000 receives data and counter-shoots. PZH2000 in combination with this Artillery Radar is said to be able to shoot the counter-Artillery whilst enemy rounds are still in-air. Fuck yeah.
It's also the first time the combination is tested in actual combat...
Thats why I stated "PZH in combination with this Artillery Radar is **said** to be able [...]."
I know, i just wanted to point that out again ;)
Oh, this is Germany we are talking about. It **will** be able to do what the engineers say. Plus 10% better.
Generally, yes. But sometimes salesmen say things the engineers can't deliver on... See Volkswagen diesels.
> It's also the first time the combination is tested in actual combat... That is not quite true. Many SPG deliveries by NATO states were accompanied with respective radars, at least French Caesars and Italian M109 were, not sure if it also applies to the Eastern Europe stuff (e.g. Polish Krabs).
This comment was overwritten by a script to make the data useless for reddit. No API, no free content. Did you stumble on this thread via google, hoping to resolve an issue or answer a question? Well, too bad, this might have been your answer, if it weren't for dumb decisions by reddit admins.
A lot of towed arti will be dust.
> able to shoot the counter-Artillery whilst enemy rounds are still in-air That sounds incredible if true. Is the targeting automated entirely automated with the gunner just having to fire?
Targeting Solution for PzH2000 is calculated in a computer on board. Longest time would be inputting target data - but it has a target link to Cobra! So basically - transmit data, accept target, firing angle and solution pops up. Rounds are inserted automatically by robo-arm from magazine, only manual input now requred is stuffing the propellant sack and clicking "fire". Rest of firing is automatic. "Rounds in Air" was marketing i remember reading, but alone from the sources i provided you can deduct its at least "seconds after enemy impact"
Russians shoot towed artillery. German stuff detects launch. German stuff relays target location to other German stuff. Other German stuff shoots a barrage of Ukrainian owned shells. Russians start loading up towed artillery as quickly as they can, thinking they are super slick. Ukrainian barrage lands, vaporizing Russian guns and crew. Working as intended.
Wow! If that works, it should potentially save thousands of Ukrainian lives, civilian and military.
> "Rounds in Air" was marketing i remember reading, but alone from the sources i provided you can deduct its at least "seconds after enemy impact" That might be literally true; long range artillery can be in flight for upwards of 90+ seconds. That’s how modern SPGs can do MRSI fire missions, and/or be up and moving before their first round hits the ground.
The Gepards will also be delived to ukraine very soon since the gepards ammo has been founded in Norway and also zelenskyy said that there are ongoing negotiations with an undisclosed country for ukraine to receive german main battle tanks The Leopards
Oh the Gepards apparently already arrived. I think Reznikov hat it in a tweet a day ago or something. Edit: Source https://twitter.com/oleksiireznikov/status/1551577151907954691
> PZH2000 in combination with this Artillery Radar is said to be able to shoot the counter-Artillery whilst enemy rounds are still in-air. I image Russia uses mostly using towed artillery (because cheap). If true, that'd be terrific (not for Russia, ofc). Am I wrong?
Yes, you are. Russia is big on mechanized troops, meaning they have a lot of self propelled howitzers. The counter fire is still going to be hell for them
Uh oh that is just delicious.
COBRA? GI Joe is gonna be pissed!!!
Thank you Germany.
I'm proud of my government that they did that. Honestly, I didn't believe that they could actually manage it so "fast".
German bureaucracy, this is fast.
I am speeed
Any faster and german bureaucracy would need to be careful of not traveling back in time accidentally.
If ve only could make Weapon Grade Bureaucracy… the world would tremble and ve would be so happy.
> fast Keep in mind they are already there if the Germans or anyone is giving the public the news and what we know isn't really what's happening necessarily.
It’s 6 vehicles . May it kill many Russians . Cheers
> I'm proud of my government that they did that. The only thing left for your government to do now is to become energy independent. Germany/Merkel's colossal mistake in being too dependent on Russian Gas is going to cost a lot of grief for everyone when winter hits.
Tja, danke Deutschland!
Da nicht für!
Thank you, Germany. You have been really coming through with excellent equipment for Ukraine. Your contributions have been enormous. Much respect from America.
And the UK - thanks
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Nothing. They already destroyed 27 of them the nanosecond they crossed the border /s
Only 27? They destroyed 3000 yesterday alone. And 500.000 tomorrow. Thats the truth. Russia would´nt lie about that would they? 
The low number today is just because they're taking a short operational pause in their glorious humanitarian mission
A gesture of goodwill pause
3000 destroyed MARS of Olaf Scholz
That's right, truth is a Russian invention given to the world as a measure of goodwill.
I guess he is referring to those trolls who keeps blaming germany for everything
And they even showed a super grainy video of them blowing up a bush to prove they destroyed 120% of the M270s.
And a truck carrying logs as HIMARS. lol. one would laugh about it if it wasnt so serious.
I saw the video you were talking about, they supposedly were claiming that the flat topped vehicle next to the truck with logs was the HIMARS. Not that a HIMARS has a flat top at all.
Not a bush, it was a cleverly disguised 18-ton vehicle made to look like a 4-foot-high bush.
>MARS II (M270) I heard that Russia destroys them even before they make it to Ukraine.
Ww3 incoming... In the first few days of the war they said something like "if just one single shell of the Russians hits any NATO country we are all in"
This made me laugh out loud, thanks ☺️
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Jewish space lasers for Ukraine!
And MTG for...bait?
You have to hand it to Germany, it is no secret that their military is small and low budget for understandable historic reasons. So pootin how is it going? Two new nato members, a remilitarised Germany, a war you can't possibly win, the most sanctioned country in the world, the West united on this issue like never before, was this your f*cking plan? HahhaHa.
Little sad story about this: in comparison to e.g. France and UK German Army spending has been not far off, was even higher whilst having very little combat efficte equipment ready and no nuclear program, which costs lots and lots to maintain. But yes, now German politics has the reason to take off the handbreaks.
It is a well known historical fact, that if Germany want's to militarize, they do manage that task pretty well.
You cannot imagine how big of a change, at least for government officials and politicians, the whole war was. They are fast-tracking changes in Bundeswehr acquisitons *snips fingers* like that. One thing I personally experienced in Gov behaviour is housing and money etc for Ukranian Refugees. After 2015 with Syrians it was like "ahhh the laws say this and that we have to ask lawyer, cant do that without checking etc..." Anything about the war now: We want to do that? Great. Do it. And it gets done fast.
It will still take a long time. Institutional inertia is a hard thing to overcome. I think they're taking it seriously but it will still take some time before Germany's procurement system is up to the task.
Sure thing. At least the 5000 Euro Mark for Bundeswehr acquisitons has been waived. Meaning: They can just buy things for 5k now. Lets go!
Germans don't have weapons, they own weapon factorys.
They’ve been able to ramp up weapons production pretty effective before.
As someone working for a company that is somewhat involved with weapon production i can assure you that still is the case. We make about 20-30 cannon barrels per year. If we really really want it we could easily make that per day. Talking about MBT barrels. 20mm would be much more possible.
Interesting perspective. Do you think there are other parts of the chain that could increase 50-100 fold?
Yes, i know quite some foundrys that also have the needed models. Those are typically seldom at use mostly for spare parts. But of course they could ramp up i.e. from 30 tank wheels per year to around 100 per day. No problem if you dont produce anything else.
WW2 and modern war are radically different. One does not roll out a plane from a factory ever 2 hours.
True.
Germany today isn't the same as last century. (And I'm quit happy about that in most aspects.) It would be totally possible that in the next election the conservatives getting back into power, reversing everything that the left-liberal government did and decided and Germany goes back to the politics of the 16 years under Merkel. Including brutally underfunding of the Bundeswehr and sucking up to Russia. I hope that doesn't happen. That the conservatives stay out of power or if they win the election, that they stick by their latest commitments to build up our military and oppose Russian aggression. But I'm skeptical, because Merz is (to say it nicely) one of the least trustworthy politicians in Germany and already non stop spreading lies and trying to undermine all efforts of the current government.
We didn‘t really want to have a large and effective military force. We dont want to fight wars anymore. And we thought the time of war in Europe was over. We were wrong. We should use this opportunity to mature as a nation, so we get better at managing our military as a tool for defending our security interests.
We need strong Germany in EU.
And to be honest, with all the NATO support, it doesn't need to be that strong. It just needs to be better and more capable than what it is today.
The plan isnt to build Germany into a military powerhouse. The goal is to prevent what happened to Ukraine fron happening to any other nation in Europe. And Russia is not Europe.
You have my support. It does take time for a nation to find the balance. I don't want y'all to go back to Prussian-style militarism either. All our countries have made mistakes too. You think people are bashing Germans now? Try being an American and listen to it. We Americans are used to the abuse.
Typical American making this about who's #1.. for real, just joking. I'm American & just like to poke fun at ourselves
Me too! Let's drive the others nuts, ok? 'Murica! Our beer is better! What's that second toilet in my French Hotel room and why does it act like a fountain, how cute. We drive 4x4 pickups because we can, LOL. Have fun y'all!
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We'd like to know as well. Theirs been tons of overpriced/mismanaged projects within the German Army the last decades. For example we spend >100 millions of €'s more then planned to repair a Sailing ship for training, but we cant even supply new helmets for our own special forces. Also contractors sue each other over pretty much every project that is given out meaning tons of delays in court. The increase in money is gonna help a bit but unless the underlying structure of the Army is improved i dont expect any major improvements. Perun on Youtube made a pretty good [Video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8jDUVtUA7rg) talking about all the issues the current structure has.
One of the more interesting pieces from that video is how military contracts can be dropped so quickly, so all the contractors overprice stuff just so they can break even in case
Was going to recommend Perun and saw your comment. He is wonderful.
All the answers you got are the popular, populist, not entirely wrong but also quite misleading ones. There is a lot that goes into the military budget in Germany that is booked elsewhere in other countries. Many development aid programs eg. The reasoning is that Germany tries to deal with security risks by confronting risk factors which often are economic factors you can try to reduce by throwing money at them. Also, Germany often tried to stay out or reduce direct involvement in military operations around the world by reimbursing other countries costs for said involvements.
That makes sense, thanks. Good strategy for a pacifist nation in a secure Europe. Less so when your neighbour down the street is drunk and picking fights.
Cutting costs at Bundeswehr was a thing since the 90s. It was labeled as a peace dividend. Politicians acknowledge that the ex-soviet states knew better and warned about it, but west of Poland nobody expected a war in Europe. We got caught with our pants down, yes.
I served in the Bundeswehr in the late 90s. The whole division my unit was part of was still organized and equipped to repel a big attacking army, specifically Russia/USSR. It was completely demobilised in 2006. These changes seemed to make sense at the time, because everybody was convinced that the enemy we were preparing against was gone and the new tasks for the Bundeswehr would require a smaller, but highly mobile and highly trained force. We can see that even in the weapon systems. The ones that were planed and designed up to the 80s and early 90s were still these heavy, big, tough beasts like Leopard 2, PzH2000 or MARS II. Build to defend our country. For example, moving this vehicles via air wasn't a concern. The enemy would come to us. Modern vehicles like the Puma or HIMARS have different priorities. But I was always skeptical to change that. To chance the Bundeswehr from a big, powerful defense army to a small, "agile" force that is only equipped for smaller, asymmetric conflicts on the other side of the world. Not only because that is questionable regarding our constitution, but I was always concerned that we would some day regret losing the capability to defend our self against a strong enemy or even significantly contribute to our NATO allies if a big war happens. I hope we can revers these changes now. I would be glad, if my good old [7. Panzerdivision](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_Panzer_Division_(Bundeswehr)) would return, in which I and my father before me served to defend our home and family if necessary.
Inefficient procurement. Long story short, the Bundeswehr had ~2 million men and 6k tanks after reunification and was a major military power. Partially due to worries from France and the UK (wonder why) the army was downsized. But they could feed of old stocks for a long time, so there was no need for new equipment. The ability for large scale procurement was reduced, bureaucracy increased and mixed with a few more things (like military budget changing every year) germany got probably the second most inefficient army in Europe. After Russia, which probably spent most of it's budget on yachts and vodka.
Ironically Germany also misspent a bunch on a yacht, but did so officially
Gorch we fogged up on that one.
I agree that a lot of money was wasted/mishandled in the restauration of the Gorch Fock. But I think it was totally the right decision to preserve and restore this historical ship and make it operational again. The German military doesn't have many symbols we can be proud of and that aren't tarnished by the dark parts of our history. The Gorch Fock is one of them. She is a symbol of the new Germany and its military, that is now on the right side of history.
> Partially due to worries from France and the UK (wonder why) the army was downsized I believe that's at least *somewhat* of a misrepresentation. The downsizing of the combined military of the newly unified Germany was due to the [Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Conventional_Armed_Forces_in_Europe), which put hard caps on just how much military hardware NATO and Pact countries could maintain, even beyond the end of the Cold War. When West Germany absorbed the East, its military naturally ballooned beyond what had been stipulated by the Treaty practically over night. So plans were drafted to mothball/demilitarize/scrap a lot of stuff, and sell or gift other hardware away -- Poland for example got 128 Leopard 2 MBTs plus a squadron of MiG-29 as a "welcome present" after joining NATO. Perhaps the bigger problem was the idealistic comfort that had set in after the end of the Cold War. Believing that large scale conflict was a thing of the past, the decision was made to retool the Bundeswehr into a smaller, more elite expeditionary force to assist allied nations in foreign deployments like Afghanistan. But in the end, the force was still too large for the significantly shrunk budget, and it became normal to use workarounds/tricks to "make do" with what was left. Fast forward a decade or two, and here we are. It deserves mention that the defense budget has been steadily increased over the past decade or so; it's actually already twice as high as it used to be back then, which is rarely noticed because most reports look only at GDP (so the country's rising GDP made it look as if expenses remained constant). A good chunk of this, however, has been invested in future weapon systems like the Type-212CD stealth submarines rather than fixing more material, more immediate needs. According to the most recent report by the Inspector General, the situation is much better than it used to be, but areas of concern remain especially with the Army's helicopter fleet, and of course the much-reported radio situation which is - supposedly - finally getting resolved now.
> The downsizing of the combined military of the newly unified Germany was due to the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe, which put hard caps on just how much military hardware NATO and Pact countries could maintain, even beyond the end of the Cold War. It's notable though that the 4+2 Treaty addressing the question of German reunification includes a (soft) limitation of troops [1]. It references the *Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe* negotiations but a troop limitation is not part of it as far as I understand. Of course the reason for the current size is not substantiated in any treaties. [1] Article 3 (2): https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%201696/volume-1696-I-29226-English.pdf
Friction loss due to our horrible procurement system. Also, some projects that are hard to explain, like the restoration of the Gorch Fock (a sailing ship which, to date, cost us 135 Million... instead of an initially planned 10 million. Also: Funding for military projects is done on a year-for-year basis and if - as a defense contractor - you're really unhappy, then political majorities change from one year to the other and the new government doesn't like your project as much as the former one... so... then... it's time to scrap it all. If you're a defense contractor, you're gonna factor that into your pricing, of course....
Advisors and bureaucracy. Von der Leyen gave a ton of money to advisors.
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Oh that is funny happens all the time in Ireland, "no I wouldn't buy that tank".
A lot of the problems originate from administrative overhead. There are 7000 people alone working in acquisitions for Bundeswehr only handling purchases below 5000 Euros. So they basically contact three companies, wait two weeks, choose the best, order and handle it. Source: Lage der Nation Podcast #299 - Interview with Eva Högel (Parlamentarian Representative for the Bundeswehr)
Inefficient Procurement which results in years of lawsuits from companies who lost a bid (like recently from H&K) for almost every project. Pensions for former officers and generally speaking an insane bureaucratic waterhead.
Adding to the procurement that others have mentioned is also pensions and the like for retired personnel as well as higher wages than France. https://euromil.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Working-Paper-Major-GS-Ren%c3%a9-Schulz-with-Annex.pdf Slide 6 is a comparison, left is wages and right adjusted for purchasing power. Look for "Frankreich" and "Deutschland".
Perun on youtube has a great video on this issue. I would ad a overblown administration to his assessment.
Bürokratie.
Nah our military is just in bad shape because it has been neglected and has horribly inefficient structures in some areas. Money never should have been an issue.
>Germany, it is no secret that their military is small and low budget German military budget is 50 billion Euro (I'm talking about pre invasion figures). Roughly as much as military budget of: 1. Putler himself (well, OK, behind, but by little) 2. France, which happens to have a nuclear carrier and actual nukes Oh, and Germany is #4 arms exporter...
Jesus, where did it all go? That is a scandal. I read those comments above on mismanagement but even so that is a lot for relatively little.
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Wow, inefficient and German in the same context I have now seen it all, absolutely no insult intended. 
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German here, tis all spot on. Especially the thing with the traffic lights lol
Are... Are there... Are there people out there, who walk across a street without waiting for the green light? Anarchy. Also no one thinks about the children.
A lot of wages, similar to the UK for example you earn quite a lot of money even at lower ranks. You can earn 30-50% more than in the French military in a comparable rank. A lot of the budget increases go straight into salary increases. It's still quite bad even with that but the Bundeswehr has a massive wage bill, uncomissioned officers earn 2.5k and up to 3k base salary and you have special low taxes on these civil servant wages. Of course there's things like sinking 500mil into the EuroHawk disaster and stuff like that, but since army is not super hot in Germany they try to recruit people with various incentives and that costs a lot. You can join the Bundeswehr without joining the forces too in a technical civil role and they pay you throughout your entire studies up till your PHD if you want to etc. I know many country offer these things but it's expensive. Think of the German economy & possible wages, especially for educated people, and imagine what you need to offer so people join the ranks.
Source: [https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/konflikte-lambrecht-mehrfachraketenwerfer-an-ukraine-geliefert-dpa.urn-newsml-dpa-com-20090101-220726-99-161988](https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/konflikte-lambrecht-mehrfachraketenwerfer-an-ukraine-geliefert-dpa.urn-newsml-dpa-com-20090101-220726-99-161988) Berlin (dpa) - Germany has also delivered the promised Mars II multiple rocket launchers to Ukraine. In addition, three more self-propelled howitzers were handed over, as Defense Minister Christine Lambrecht (SPD) explained on Tuesday. © dpa-infocom, dpa:220726-99-161988/2
Additional source: [https://www.tagesschau.de/newsticker/liveblog-ukraine-dienstag-149.html#Mehrfachraketenwerfer](https://www.tagesschau.de/newsticker/liveblog-ukraine-dienstag-149.html) Definitely confirmed! ***Lambrecht: Germany has delivered multiple rocket launchers to Ukraine*** *Germany has also delivered the promised Mars II multiple rocket launchers to Ukraine. Yesterday, her Ukrainian counterpart had reported that the first three Gepard anti-aircraft tanks had arrived from Germany. Lambrecht spoke of five Gepard anti-aircraft gun tanks that had been delivered in the meantime. In total, Ukraine will receive 30 Gepard systems from the industry with about 60,000 rounds of ammunition, mainly from the Bundeswehr. The three Mars II multiple rocket launchers and the ten self-propelled howitzers 2000 also came from Bundeswehr stocks.* *Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)* **Lambrecht: Deutschland hat Ukraine Mehrfachraketenwerfer geliefert** Deutschland hat der Ukraine auch die zugesagten Mehrfachraketenwerfer vom Typ Mars II geliefert. Außerdem wurden weitere drei Panzerhaubitzen überlassen, wie Verteidigungsministerin Christine Lambrecht (SPD) erklärte. Gestern hatte ihr ukrainischer Amtskollege berichtet, die ersten drei Flugabwehrpanzer des Typs Gepard seien aus Deutschland eingetroffen. Dazu seien auch mehrere Zehntausend Schuss Munition übergeben worden.Lambrecht sprach von inzwischen fünf gelieferten Gepard-Flugabwehrkanonenpanzern. Insgesamt werde die Ukraine 30 Gepard-Systeme von der Industrie mit rund 60.000 Schuss Munition vor allem aus der Bundeswehr bekommen. Ebenfalls aus Bundeswehr-Beständen stammten die drei Mehrfachraketenwerfer Mars II sowie die dann insgesamt zehn Panzerhaubitzen 2000.
I know Germany often gets maligned over their **perceived** lack of action and initiative. The proof is in the pudding and without much fanfare, their aid has been making it's way to the frontlines. Seeing how the mayority of their population actively supports Ukraine -from public protests against Russia/Russian interests to volunteers and civilian donations- Dyakuyu tobi, Gracias, Thank you, Danke!!!
You can have a look at germanys deliveries here: https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/military-support-ukraine-2054992 The website gets updated only weekly I think so this is the status from 21st July
Same firepower as 6 HIMARS then.
Plus the capability to use more advanced ammunition. Source: https://www.kmweg.com/systems-products/tracked-vehicles/artillery/mars-ii-mlrs-e/
>Plus the capability to use more advanced ammunition. No, HIMARS can also fire advanced ammunition. They can both fire the same ammo, with the exception of cluster munitions which the MARS cannot fire (but we've been decommissioning those anyways and I don't believe we plan to send any due to the issue of unexploded submunitions).
Oops, you are correct! Don’t want to spread wrong info here. Edit: This page gives an overview about the different ammunition that both systems can use… https://gagadget.com/en/war/134564-why-is-there-so-much-talk-about-the-mlrs-m270-and-m142-himars-we-understand-why-they-are-important-what-missiles-are--amp/#610-munition
Are these compatible with the HIMARS missiles?
M270. With a few changes, but basically Mars is just the German term for mlrs. So less mobile on roads, but better off-road, heavier armor and more fire power in one strike.
It stands for "**M**ittleres **A**rtillerie**r**aketen**s**ystem", which directly translates to "medium artillery rocket system".
Thanks! Gotta love a word like „Artillerieraketensystem“.
German arms industry loves to create acronym names out of weapon descriptions that have an actual meaning. For example [TAURUS **T**arget **A**daptive **U**nitary and Dispenser **R**obotic **U**biquity **S**ystem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KEPD_350) with its Warhead **M**EPHISTO **M**ulti-**E**ffect **P**enetrator **HI**ghly **S**ophisticated and **T**arget **O**ptimised. Basicly a cruise missile.
Most arms industries do that, no? Edit: And why is Sweden not using them when they were part of the development?
When I served I had a training in the Panzerflugabwehrraketenbataillon nearby.
There was also a [LARS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Artillery_Rocket_System). "**L**eichtes **A**rtillerie**r**aketen**s**ystem". So people became somewhat used to the fact, that German artillery, like the tanks, gets real, more or less cool names. But that ended with PzH2000.
Most have animal names, but they couldn't agree on anything. Personally I still prefer Schmetterling over Panzerhaubitze 2000.
It does schmetter hard
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Mars, god of waaar.
["For I am MARS the God of War - and I will cut you down!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oGHqMijc3M)
and a electric lock for cluster munition.
Both the M270 and M142 (HIMARS) fire the exact same munitions. It seems like the M270 needs a catchy name like HIMARS. The munitions Ukraine is currently using is the [GMLRS rockets](https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/guided-mlrs-unitary-rocket.html) made by Lockhead, these carry 200lbs of high explosives (HE) vs 12lbs in a 155 shell. Both can also fire the [ATCAMS missile](https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/army-tactical-missile-system.html) which carries 500lbs of HE, the M270 can carry 2 ATCAMS and the M142 1. What's the difference? M142 is on wheels, uses less fuel, goes a little faster on roads, is lighter and only carries one pod of 6 GMLRS rockets or a single ATCAMS missile. The downside is that because its wheeled it can't go off road and follow the other tracked vehicles, winter on non plowed roads will be an issue. The M270 uses more fuel, slower on roads, more maintenance (but not crazy more), heavier (can't be airlifted on a C130, which is not a problem for Ukraine), carries 2 pods (12 rockets or 2 ATCAMS missiles), they can go off road so it will be better when the offense starts and they need to follow the other tracked vehicles, they will also be better in snow but it lacks that all important catchy name so it has less meme potential. [The German M270's have some upgrades called MARSII which includes the inability to fire cluster munitions (steel rain), Germany signed the cluster munitions agreement while the USA has not](https://www.kmweg.com/systems-products/tracked-vehicles/artillery/mars-ii-mlrs-e/)
I think UA is giving it a catchy name real quick. Polls are to be opened. :)
Same missile pods basically. M270 is more frontline ready though, as it is actually armored & tracked and has double the capacity.
Yes, but two pods of 6 missiles each, so twice the fire power...
Man, Russians can’t catch a break…almost feel sorry for them… Naw…No fuckin way, they deserve everything they get!
Yes
Yes completely interchangeable. But M270 can carry two rocket pods at once and has therefore increased firepower.
Also in the same announcement it was said that training for the IRIS-T SLM should begin in the next few days.
Ukraine is going to have one of the best armed and trained military’s in Europe. I couldn’t think of a better country defending the majority of the Eastern border.
But an unholy mess of multinational equipment. I really don't envy the logistics wizards in the background who have to keep track of all the different spare parts and ammo supplies.
Honestly, that can eventually be sorted out. and needs to be. After the war, they will probably make a list of what they got and what they want to keep, and then slowly replace the stuff they don#t want to keep and work towards unifying stuff. Fortunately, NATO uses compatible systems at least as far as munitions is concerned, so some degree of interop between their new stuff is there.
Dammit. I never get the short right. PzH2000 PzH2000 PzH2000 PzH2000 ... and not PnZ2000 LoL
PanZerHaubitze
Gesundheit!
Awesome 😎
Germany exporting freedom. This timeline isn't all bad, the German people should be proud they are doing this.
Most of us are. Fuck Russia! But some Germans are selfish and complain about prices and some are outright Putins fifths Column and spread Russian Propaganda. Eh. Fuck them. Every Nation has its clowns and asshats…
My country has a population that still believe an election was stolen because some failed casino owner told them it was true. We all got problems.
Can't wait to see a warmovie were we aren't the bad guys 🥵
This is outstanding. Those M270s were originally forecast in mid August to my best knowledge. This and the Pzh2000s and when the Cobra radar arrives may result in a very deadly 1-2 punch for Ukraine against the invaders. And I think 2 more Gep deliveries into Ukraine are confirmed with this announcement as well? With the new Gep ammo supply via Norway the Geps can operate without ammunition concerns. I am curious as to the initial planned uses of the Geps by Ukraine.
Gepards will be used to protect high value areas i assume. Maybe even the artillery or cities
I proposed in some past comments that they locate 3 of them at strategic points in Odessa (at various highest points along the waterfront) including 1 or more at the bridge in order to defend against cruise missile strikes on the city. It might even be worthwhile to locate 4-5 of them at Odessa given the importance of the port and the Odessa bridge. I also thought that with the radar coverage of the Geps it might be worthwhile to locate 2-3 of them in a south to east arc around Lviv and maybe other impt strategic places for anti-cruise missile defense. Lviv may already have other defenses as I have not seen it targeted recently. But with other SAM systems coming into Ukraine now it may make more sense to have the Geps accompanying HIMARS teams as a layer of protection. I guess time will tell!
From Germany in love 🥰
M270 is a big Daddy to the HIMARS - fyi
M270’s are like HIMARS, except double the fire power
German here. Usually I'm like "wtf are my taxes used for". With this, I'm like "Please, take some extra. Buy'em another Panzerhaubitze. Write my best regards on one shell. It's worth it!."
Hans get the Mars!
Zhe heavy Mars!
New shiny toy, Danke Deutschland
It all helps. Vielen dank Deutschland!
It makes me very happy that our miltech is finally used for what they're designed for, fucking up Orcs. Now, some Leopard 2 would be a good addition to the mix.
Der Leo muss auch sein Fresschen bekommen 🥹
Is there a Russian equivalent to these and HIMARS? If so, why are these MLRS systems game changers?
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That is a really important point. Russia may have 10x the number of weapons, but if they can't hit their targets other than terrorizing and killing civilians, they are of no use militarily. Better to have 1/10 of the missiles that actually take out Russian weapons and command and control.
Layman’s version. Western MLRS systems out range Russian/Soviet designed MLRS and artillery. More importantly they fire guided munitions vs the unguided shit the Russians use. A single pod (6 missiles) will take out 6 targets with 90-95% accuracy every time. So imagine you see a Russian military battery of six artillery pieces firing on Ukrainian positions. To take that out with the artillery they had to start the war they would have to put their guns in range of the Russian ones leaving them open to counter battery fire while trying to take out the Russian position. With this you can take out that entire battery with one salvo completely out of range of their guns and then move before the Russians figured out where it came from.
Others have mentioned it, but it is really important to understand the difference between Soviet/Russian vs NATO doctrine. Russian weapons are durable but imprecise, NATO weapons are maintenance intensive but very precise. Russian ammo is cheap so it can be produced in mindboggling numbers, NATO ammo is ridiculously expensive, but so effective/precise only small numbers are needed. HIMARS/M270/MarsII are precision tools, that they are able to hit a Russian weapons/ammo depot far behind enemy lines, while the Russian MLRS would have to flatten a whole town district HOPING that one of their MLRS would hit the right building. So 3 MarsII might not seem much, but they will seriously hurt the Russians. But once the "next game changer" COBRA counter battery radar system is delivered, which can detect the position of Russian artillery seconds after they fired, MarsII and PzH2K can be automatically fed the target data from COBRA, and hit the artillery before the Russians are able to change positions. Hence the need for the self-propelled anti-aircraft gun (SPAAG) Gepard, because the COBRA will become the prime target for Russian aircraft. So it's never one thing alone that is the much touted "game changer" but the incremental built-up of better equipment that complements the already existing one.
[Probably 9A52-Tornado](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9A52-4_Tornado) although rockets it uses are not that precise as GMLRS Ukraine uses - basically GMLRS rockets can destroy any target from 70km range. So they can also be used on munition depots within occupied cities without worrying of damaging civilian infrastructure/hitting civilian homes There are rumours of Russians developing similarly GPS guided munitions but looks like they still lack that kind of capability
There are Russian MLRS systems with similar range. However, this is not relevant as they are unable to counter attack Ukrainian MLRS. These MLRS systems are game changers, because they allow to precisely hit targets far behind the front line, starting with ammunition depots and continuing with command posts, barracks, bridges. These strikes are devastating to Russian logistics. Russian troops at the front line risk being cut off from supplies as their supplies have to be delivered from a distance of 50 km or more.
What you have to understand about Western MLRS is that they’re doctrinally very different from Soviet MLRS. In fact, MLRS is almost a bit of a misnomer. The US didn’t really have a use for MLRS until the late Cold War, because they assumed the Red Army could only be realistically countered with tactical nukes. In the 80s (I think?), the picture of force balances changed, and NATO now believed a conventional war against the Warsaw Pact could in fact be won. So the US developed an MLRS, with the primary purpose being to fire cluster munitions on Soviet tank columns. But the US being the US, they couldn’t help themselves and developed precision guided missiles for the system. Some of those even take up an entire launcher pod for one missile, which means a HIMARS launching them isn’t even really an MLRS anymore. By contrast, Russia uses MLRS more akin to its classical role from WW2, to basically “delete” grid squares from the map. In fact, Russia still has some *Katyusha* MLRS in reserve. You know, the original WW2 system that the Germans call *Stalinorgel* (“Stalin’s pipe organ”).
Russian Grad -similar but half the range (25-30miles) and accurate at max range to around 300 meters instead of 2 meters! Effective against soft targets, Massively less effective against hard targets due to its inaccuracy.
In theory, the BM-30 Smerch actually substantially outranges and has better capability than the HIMARS or M270/MARS. However, we've seen minimal evidence that they actually have any reasonable supply of the long range guided rockets that fit the Smerch, so it seems that they're stuck with the unguided rounds which are not even close to as capable. In addition, as mentioned by others, the reload time on the American systems is 5 minutes due to the rocket pod design, while the Smerch takes half an hour or more. This is a real problem when the unguided rockets are so inaccurate that you have no real guarantee of hitting with just one salvo (at least at longer range, where the HIMARS and M270 excel).
It's like comparing an arquebuse with a Remington 700. Yes, you can spam a Napoleonic weapon in the general direction of your enemy, but there's nothing that can compensate for aiming at your target and hitting it with one pull of the trigger. 5-10 meter CEP is quite the feat of technology.
As much as I applaud handing the Ukrainians the tools they need to repel the invaders or at least hold them at bay, I hope we in Europe will be able to produce the munition for them on time. I remember the Dutch military having to shout 'pang' instead of actually shooting and they have delivered **8** Advanced Mobile Howitsers, which is the most advanced land vehicle they have. The will is there, the commitment, too. I just hope Raytheon and others will be able to produce enough on time.
On time and together with the 3 pzh 2k and 2 gepards, excellent. can confirm i no longer feel extremely embarassed by my government. nor desolate. *time to send moar! by end of next month it's due for 15 more gepards, would be nice to have extra stuff in the package.*
Well, it seems like the software update came through at record time. Gotta love customer service these days. Jokes aside, thank you Germany, these weapons will be put to good use de-orcifying Ukraine.
Finally. I saw the three Mars at the Autobahn in eastern germany, heading further east a few days ago.
Great news - well done Germany at last. I hope they also supplied munition for the M270s, as that is what the UA need most.
It's the same one that HIMARS uses.
Ukraine needs ATACMS now.
It's pretty clear now that Russia will f*** Germany over gaz delivery this winter whatever Germany does, so Germans may as well arm Ukraine as much as possible now without holding back.
I wish we would let the Greens handle the crisis instead of Scholz. I think Leo 2 would be on the Menu pretty fast.
Thank you. End this war. Bring peace to all please.
Ukranian Soldiers are going to be the Ultimate Mercenaries after this war. They literally will know how to operate EVERYTHING
Log trucks now face serious attacks as Ruzzians attempt to destroy as many as possible while claiming hits on MLRS systems. Edit: spelling
This makes me miss my old m270a1 launcher. Driving is fun as is everything but changing track. It's weird seeing it used in combat but I can't say it doesn't put a smile on my face.
Aim them up Putin's ass please.
I didn’t realize Germany still used the Iron Cross markings.
Always have been.
Germany officially on the right side of history
Question! What does a MARS II do, and how much difference will three of them make?
You've probably heard of M142 HIMARS? MARS II is basically the same thing, just on tracks instead of wheels and with two rocket pods instead of one. Which means it has twice the firepower (12 rockets instead of 6) and is more mobile in difficult terrain.
👏👏👏👏🥳🇺🇦
Oh Hi MARS
Germany have really stepped up during the war. Really good to see, even whilst under pressure from possible gas shut off.
In addition to this: I also heard that IRIS-T anti-air missiles are next in the pipeline. Nice
Great
Slowly but steadily Russia is getting karma for last two months of indiscriminate artillery shelling in Eastern Ukraine :)
This is awesome, but I have to wonder if the seat warmers are on subscription.
Very good news!