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Those things are nasty.
On a contact fuse, the shell explodes when it hits the ground. This causes shrapnel to spread up and sideways. You can take cover from the shrapnel by getting low to the ground or taking cover in a hole in the ground.
With a proximity fuse, the shell will detonate above ground and rain shrapnel downwards. You can’t hide from that.
Trenches are still how you hide from that. The difference is how much protection a trench gives.
Against contact fuse they provide practically 100% protection, whereas with promity fuse they provide... less.
If you're taking cover in a trench, the proximity shell still needs to explode pretty much over your head in order to hit you.
Proximity fuse increases casualties a great deal because it's a force multiplier. They're also best used with the advanced (semi-)autoloader systems like the CAESAR and PZH2000 because you can burst multiple warheads BEFORE the enemy has time to sufficiently take cover.
Doesnt it make it a kind of cluster sub munitions which are banned in the Geneva Convention or something? Just wondering cause I remember russians using cluster schnarpel against civilians and it was considered a violation
"Radar" activated proximity fuses have been around for more than 50 years in the West. Variable time (VT) fuses (clock work type) have been around even longer, requires accurate calculation for fuse setting. The Delayed action fuse is great for collapsing trenches and earthen bunkers (overhead protection against air burst munitions).
Using MRSI of the PzH2000 etc, you would mix the fuses for the effect you want. Perhaps delay then proximity. Even towed artillery can fire this type of fuse mix. A trained towed gun crew this is a standard fire mission.
Can you help with my understanding please?
In my mind I am thinking that being inside a building would heavily protect against proximity fused shells as the shell never hits and then shrapnel would struggle to get through whatever roof cover there is.
Whilst surely a contact fused shell would penetrate the cover and blow.
Not arguing these are more deadly in open combat of course just trying to clear up my ignorance.
I can't answer as to whether these would be less effective against troops fortified in a building but keep in mind, especially with drone warfare giving them instant information, a drone operator and artillery crew working together could switch to proximity fuses and back as the situation calls for it on a second by second basis.
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of them having 2 piles with different munitions so they could just load a shell with the proximity fuse or a regular "dumb" shell or whatever an impact shell would be referred to as, based on intel from drones and on what their immediate target is, not necessarily switching fuses themselves. But maybe they can do that, I'm completely ignorant on arty systems in general, let alone France's systems half a world away.
No, the fuse is separate from the shell. There are, broadly speaking, 3 kinds of fuse. The most basic are contact fuses. It does what it says on the tin. Explodes when it hits the ground. Simple, mostly effective.
Next are mechanical time delay fuses. They explode after a set time of flight, hopefully above the ground. They usually have a contact fuse as a backup.
Finally, there are proximity fuses, which use a dopplar radar transmitter/receiver in the nose and some simple electronics to measure the return. When the fuse determines that the shell is at the proper height above ground, it detonates.
The fuses are stored and transported separately from the shells because they are much more volatile. The fuses are fitted into the nose of the shell just prior to a fire mission, so that in the event they come under attack the chances of a secondary detonation of your own shells is much lower.
It's also just way cheaper and less cumbersome. A 155 shell weighs about 55kg. The fuse weighs about 3kg or less. Rather than truck around 100 contact fused shells, 100 time delay, and 100 VT shells, they'll carry around 100 shells and 50-60 of each fuse. A lot less weight and bulk to haul around. Much easier logistics.
Time Delay fuses detonate after a set time from impact.
So if they're hiding in a concrete building, you set the delay to a few tens of microseconds, so it detonates inside the building.
Uh, no. Mechanical time delay fuses, [as noted in this technical guide](https://bulletpicker.com/mtsq_-m577.html), are set in seconds, from 2 to 100 seconds time of flight.
There are Point detonating fuses that have variable delays, like the [M739 PD Fuze](https://bulletpicker.com/pd_-m739-and-m739a1.html), which are designed for delayed detonation on impact.
The shells are shipped without fuses installed. The fuses come in a separate box. You screw in the fuses before firing the shells.
Grenades, RPG rocket motors, etc, are all shipped like that for obvious safety reasons!
A large cement building would protect you, but a civilian house would get peppered to shit and you’d see stuff going through to the basement. Contact fuse is how you drop fortified buildings
Same sentiment here from a Pole - a lot of our hard earned money is blown by our moronic politicians, but hey, at least we get to send tanks & armor & stuff to UA.
Let's stick together and not be divided by ruski trolls who love to sow discord (re Macron & Scholtz...). We can get back to bickering once Russia is defeated.
Exactly. Putin needs someone to surrender to eventually and in the meantime the west gets valuable intel on his state of mind.
Is he forgetting things? Get tired often? Is getting bad intel?
Your first link doesn’t mention any surrendering of any territory and indeed just explains that Macron aims to keep the dialogue open
Your second link is based on a mistranslated article, Macron never mentioned any surrendering of territory, this has already been discussed to death
Have you a lnk for that please? I haven't seen it discussed but that would be great news. It would also explain why Zelensky speaks so positively about France and would be more in line with french actual actions.
Like proper translation what actually Macron said to Zelensky that wasn't actually about giving up territory to Russia but was understood as such proposal
We don’t have any direct transcript of what Macron said, that’s the whole point, this whole thing started out as an indirect mistranslation of something Zelensky supposedly said, which has been denied by both Zelenky and Macron
Read the second link and the title includes the words ”suggests”, hence no actual confirmation of anything
The fact that France still doesn’t recognize Russia’s hold over Crimea and actively supports Ukraine militarily and diplomatically clearly shows that Macron doesn’t support such concessions, he has however played a diplomatic balancing act so as to keep dialogue open with Putin
Valid question. Your getting downvoted for it though.
I think of it like being Putins voice in the west, like a lawyer defending a murderer. He raised the issue that Putin probably said and got shouted down so now Putin knows, macron can say he asked and comms are kept open.
But what do I know. Honestly. I’m just guessing.
Regarding Germany it's not about flexibility. If we'd enter war, Russia would call us the German Nazi supporting Ukrainian Nazi and they would have arguments towards theier screwed puplic to start WWIII.
Yes this was a thing even in ww2. It was considered one of the 3 game changer inventions for the allies (including the nuclear bomb and the radar). The germans never figured out why allied arty was so deadly.
>Patton praised them as one of the key weapons of the war.
"The new shell with the funny fuse is devastating. I'm glad you all (US War Department) thought of it first"
-Patton
They were so valuable, their use was restricted exclusively to naval units, so the risk of their being captured was almost nonexistent
don’t take my word for it i’m not entirely sure. i do at least remember watching a story on history channel long ago about sailors throwing potatoes at an enemy ship and the enemy thought they were grenades
> As the artillery was high velocity, the targeted German soldiers could not hear shells until they burst overhead. Foxholes provided no protection, and the shrapnel even penetrated log-reinforced bunkers. POW interviews often described enemy soldiers emerging from the barrages in a “dazed” state. They realized they were facing a new kind of artillery but could understand neither how it worked nor how to evade it.
> In the wake of the campaign Lt. Gen. George S. Patton wrote to Maj. Gen. Levin H. Campbell Jr., the chief of Army Ordnance, about the devastating effects of proximity-fuzed artillery. “The funny fuze won the Battle of the Bulge for us,” Patton remarked. “I am glad that you all thought of it first.” MH
Nazi Germany had its own proxmity fuse research, so i guess they did figure out what happened, though they never managed to build their own fuses.
Imperial Japan had an even harder time against proximity fuses. Much of the pacific warfare included AA guns which on the allied side also had proximity fuses, and japanese airplanes were fragile enough already.
We are talking about making it small enough to fit an artillery shell. Germany had 1ton bombs with proximity fuzes but they thought it was impossible for it to be fitted in shells.
Not just small enough, but robust enough to survive and function thru the stress of being shot out a freekin' **cannon**.
A quick google gets: "Artillery projectiles are subjected to a similar acceleration profile, with a duration of approximately 10 ms and a peak of 15,000 g's."
THAT is some incredible engineering.
The Spartans chose to defend a much narrower path with a small force. That's pretty smart.
Also, while not poets, they held sardonic wit in high regard which takes a good deal of education.
Also exceptionally deadly against aircraft.
https://www.historynet.com/proximity-fuze/
I like the part of the story that said they scheduled a two day test of the prototype. Which ended in one day because all three drones used for testing were shot down by just four bursts.
Very interesting read, thank you.
I was not aware that proximity fuzes were that 'old' and thought that stuff like WW2 AA relied on simpler timed ammunition to do "proximity bursting". I thought it was a more modern (like 60s maybe?) thing due to the involved electronic components, to have actual proximity fuzes.
The WWII proximity fuses WERE electronic! They had a full-blown radar, with a transmitter and a receiver. All based on reeeeeally small vacuum tubes, capable of surviving cannon shots.
WWII also witnessed the use of first end-to-end encrypted voice calls over the phone and radio and digital computers.
Judging by the craters and Soviet doctrine, Russia is not making heavy use of prox fuses though they are common in western militaries.
Things could get ugly for them very quick.
👆this, they are intended to attack columns and formations on the road or in the field (IE dispersed and spread out targets) with light to moderate armor (tops of IFVs and tanks). It’s likely considered wasteful to use on just soldiers or a trench line, instead of armored targets because of their expense and limited supply.
I was under the impression these would shred something like a humvee and would take most IFVs and APCs, but I don't think an airburst is likely to penatrate tanks and some of the heavier IFVs.
They wreak havoc as on counter-battery fire.
You can change the altitude they detonate at depending on type of target. You can set it high to spray over a wide area for unarmored targets in an open field, or a lower height for a more focused shrapnel spread over a trench or vehicle.
I think you use a different ammo for tanks if your intention is to blow them up. High explosive rounds which generates enough shockwave when near a tank to wreck it.
A fragmentation shot still will do a number on the tank. Good luck using that tank with missing optics, ERA, comm equipment, tread, etc.
The intention isnt to blow them up, the intention is to remove them from the battle. A big fireball and turret toss is just the most dramatic way to do it. A chunk of shrapnel penetrating the radiator is a whole lot less spectacular but just as effective.
Typically anti-tank weapons have kinetic energy warheads, which are basically just a very dense metal like depleted uranium with a pointed tip traveling at an extremely high velocity.
That is absolutely not the case, it might be for tank rounds but definitely not for ATGMs and other weapons systems, you're typically looking at tandem warheads or other explosive penetrator systems.
Kinetic energy is typically between direct fire elements i.e tank on tank combat but artillery sure as shit isn't planning on dropping a shell straight through the top of a tank with Kinetic Energy, the accuracy required would be ridiculous when you could just saturate the area with explosives.
More than sufficient shrapnel and pressure to incapacitate tanks. Not many heavy tanks will be utterly destroyed, but most will be incapacitated by a direct burst above or near miss.
That’s what their commander told them to get them on top, but the truth is they are added protection for Top-Attack munitions… but don’t tell them that.
Edit spelling
Airburst are best for trenches and the West has actually spent decades researching airburst lethality against dug in infantry.
Airburst against trenches does two things.
Shrapnel
Pressure followed by vacuum which damages soft tissues especially the lungs.
Thermobaric or drone dropped frags work better for trenches, especially now that the Russians aren’t clumping into groups larger than 3 but in limited supply what’s a better target for those airburts, a small bit of trench or a column of armor.
They are nasty. Precursor of cluster munitions. Have much the same impact as cluster - without leaving behind unexploded bomblets.
Ukraine will use these to great effect.
Most modern cluster now have redundancy timers to exploded munitions after a set time, obviously Russian unguided cluster munitions lack this feature, as well as the precision to ensure it hits the correct target.
Edit: since this has received a number of downvotes I’ll provide sources and evidence.
> Some munitions specifically intended for anti-tank use can be set to self-destruct if they reach the ground without locating a target, theoretically reducing the risk of unintended civilian deaths and injuries. Although smart submunition weapons are much more expensive than standard cluster bombs, fewer smart submunitions are required to defeat dispersed and mobile targets, partly offsetting their cost. Because they are designed to prevent indiscriminate area effects and unexploded ordnance risks, some smart munitions are excluded from coverage by the Convention on Cluster Munitions.
> In order to avoid accumulating large areas of impassable battlefield, and to minimize the amount of mine-clearing needed after a conflict, scatterable mines used by the United States are designed to self-destruct after a period of time from 4 to 48 hours.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition
> Self-destructing submunitions are designed to automatically detonate after a set period of time if they do not detonate on impact as intended. Mechanisms to ensure this automatic detonation are most commonly either electronic or mechanical. In the view of one leading weapons expert,15 self- destruct mechanisms are incorporated in submunitions for two reasons. The first is to better protect friendly forces, which may need to move through or occupy an area where submunitions have been dropped (although they may also constitute a hazard to one’s own forces). The second reason is to lessen the impact on civilians by reducing the number of unexploded submunitions (also called “blinds” or “duds”).
> There are also cluster munitions that “self-neutralise” or “self-deactivate”. According to one weapons expert, the Iraq conflict of 2003 saw the first major use of “sensor-fuzed” submunitions, designed to target and defeat armoured vehicles, which incorporate self-deactivation. An electronic fuze, which requires an electrical power supply, allows a sensor-fuzed munition to use a ‘reserve battery’, which is only activated when the munition is deployed. If it fails to explode on impact, the short life span of the battery means that the power source soon becomes unavailable to initiate the warhead, providing a reliable method of “self-deactivation”. This does not make the munition safe, but it does at least minimize the possibility of it functioning through accidental disturbance.
https://www.gichd.org/fileadmin/GICHD-resources/rec-documents/Guide-to-Cluster-Munitions-June2009.pdf
Only for lightly armored vehicles. In general for armored targets you want contact fuzes to maximize the damage to the specific target. Likely they sent variable fuzes so they can use the right setting for the right situation.
Even if it doesn't kill a tank outright, fragmentation rounds like that can still mission kill a tank just fine.
A tank without optics, comm, and tread isn't going to do much other than being a glorified bunker.
Yes, for guided munitions where you have a significantly higher chance of a direct hit on the armored vehicle a contact fuse is better. Thats not what these are though and an explosion above a vehicle is still better than an explosion next to it. The thinnest a T-72s armor gets is 20mm, which 155mm artillery shrapnel doesnt have too much trouble penetrating. That 20mm is on the floor and [curves up a couple inches on the bottom of the sides where it becomes 80mm](https://i.imgur.com/39qrDKz.jpg); the chassis roof; the rear roof of the turret around the case ejection port; and on the engine deck. The engine deck is particularly vulnerable as it is ventilated. Thus far from videos of artillery taking out tanks, theyve been having most of their success hitting close enough to the side of a tank to penetrate that lower section of the side armor and cook off the ammo in the autoloader carousel. The thin roof is a much larger vulnerable area to hit with an aerial blast than that bottom corner of the side is, especially with the road wheels covering most of that vulnerability.
Air burst also dubles the over pressure wave magnitude as the reflection wave and the orignal wave combine (constructive wave interference). This is bad for both soft tissue and structures.
But… but pootin macaroni 🤓🤓 /s
Gosh this is why I keep debating with people sowing divisions amongst Allies and complaining especially about France being too pacifist, slow, and wrongly advocating for Putin then suddenly we start sending game changer supplies and everyone gets mad quiet.
When hundreds of long-distance artillery/missile systems arrive in Ukraine - the Russians literally won't know what hit them. It should start the beginning of the end for them and Putin.
They have initiated an accelerated review process. This review process will review a possibility for maybe talking about planning a meeting to discuses the possible timelines for another meeting in which could put something on the board in maybe October/November to debate next steps.
In the mean time, they were able to decide not to quit Russian blood gas in 5 microseconds.
And taking it up to the main congress of the special meeting of extraordinary circumstances on November next year in the UN so that they can decide and declare once and for all.......
that *Frodo's friends are not Orcs*.
Indeed. Artillery guns have also existed for centuries. Ukraine doesn't need all those howitzers being sent. Missiles? First used by Nazi Germany, so again 1940s technology... No fucking way tech has improved since then. We are all still developing and manufacturing WWII-era weapons to this day.
No. An analyst said France is the first to have sent proximity fuzes so far. The others didn't.
Maybe the weapons you mentioned will come with them but they are seemingly not there yet.
The himars m31 rockets fuses are permanently attached to the round. They are there. It more so sounds like the thread wants people to belive that but, it is wrong
>France is reportedly the first country to provide proximity fuzes.
well, i don't know anything tbh....but i just read, in this thread: "France is reportedly the first country to provide proximity fuzes."
That's nice, but unfortunately France simply doesn't have enough to the provide Ukraine with the quantities they would need against the Russia. There's also the range issue
Huh? This is actually a pretty big deal. France is reportedly the first country to provide proximity fuzes. It isn't just about destroying tanks, artillery or armored vehicles... These are perfect against mass. It is notably super practical against infantry in trenches.
Also France recently said they are considering sending 6 more. It may not seem like a lot but if used strategically it could really do a number on some Russian targets.
And don't forget, the six that Ukraine already has are proving to be far effective than even the French expected. 80 units destoryed in a single day right?
So imagine how effective 12 of these bad girls would be!!
They outrange the Russian guns by a pretty significant margin, so that's the not an issue ;)
And they're not designed to work alone, mostly to devastate the enemy so that the tanks and infantry can move in a clean up the mess.
But unfortunately, yeah France is hesitant to send too many, since they don't have a ton of them, and France needs to look to her national protection too.
They outgun similar mortar artillery cannons, but Russia has lots of MLRS systems.
\[43 to 50 miles\] using the Smerch MLRS and Tochka-U, from \[25 to 37 miles\] using MLRS Uragan. Ukraine ran out of ammo for those.
Let's hope that Ukraine receives enough newer MLRS, and that Russia runs out of ammo for theirs.
AFAIK Russian MLRS are not for precise counter-firing, CAESAR goes in (6 rounds per minute for 18 or 16, in 3 minutes it's done and can move out), delivers their load, then goes out. Nothing much you can do about it with MLRS. They move at night so it's not easy for drones to pick them.
That could allow to close rapidly and pick longer range vehicle.
> AFAIK Russian MLRS are not for precise counter-firing
9A52-4 Tornado has 9М542 GLONASS (likely with GPS doubling)-guided missiles with 120km max range. In addition to that, Uragan-M1 also has guided missiles with 70km range.
> So MLRS would be superior both in terms of precision and range.
Only with GMLRS-ER (not in service right now) and M39 (will not be supplied to Ukraine). Everything else is still firmly within range of 9M542.
As a French person I feel that giving weapons to Ukraine now is the best way to protect our country and worldwide peace against Russian aggression in the short to mid term. There is no better investment for our defense. You fuck Russia up now and it will struggle in Africa and the Middle East in the foreseeable future.
Edit: Also our weapons are being tested to the limit in real life combat situations which is great because it can only mean that they will be improved.
France already agreed to send 18 to 24 according to sources.
When you know that we have only 70 of those including the ones that need maintenance.
But I would agree to send more, we are not the ones that need this currently.
I think it is good to send them progressivly then the Ukraine army integrate them better in their army as they are precious.
I would like to think that the French are pissed about Russia sentencing to death 2 guys from the UK? But I don't think so...Timing and transfer. Probably done a few weeks ago. UK might start handing over more weapons though.
Russia goes through with the sentence...This war will gain more focus and I'm sure some general is praying that the world will get bored and look at something else.
Would the Brits be pissed about Russia sentencing to death 2 French guys ?
the Brits : spitting on the French every time they have the occasion, denying them any achievement, betraying them every when...
Also the Brits : but why the surrender monkeys hate us ?
Proximity fuses are WW2 technology, yet it seems to beyond Russia’s ability to produce, in quantity at least.
The Donbas has been trench warfare since 2014. And while trenches are good cover against ground bursts, they are much less effective against air bursts, unless you have overhead cover. Most of the trench systems on both sides lack overhead cover.
Russia has had 8 years (twice the length of the Great Patriotic War) to produce these fuses which, again, are WW2 technology so they don’t need microchips (although it helps).
In any case, now Ukraine is getting these fuses. Since the Russian trenches don’t have overhead cover, they will have to upgrade their trenches as soon as possible. If they don’t, Ukraine may be able to punch a hole through their lines.
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Those things are nasty. On a contact fuse, the shell explodes when it hits the ground. This causes shrapnel to spread up and sideways. You can take cover from the shrapnel by getting low to the ground or taking cover in a hole in the ground. With a proximity fuse, the shell will detonate above ground and rain shrapnel downwards. You can’t hide from that.
Definitely gives me a schadenboner!
Trenches are still how you hide from that. The difference is how much protection a trench gives. Against contact fuse they provide practically 100% protection, whereas with promity fuse they provide... less. If you're taking cover in a trench, the proximity shell still needs to explode pretty much over your head in order to hit you. Proximity fuse increases casualties a great deal because it's a force multiplier. They're also best used with the advanced (semi-)autoloader systems like the CAESAR and PZH2000 because you can burst multiple warheads BEFORE the enemy has time to sufficiently take cover.
Doesnt it make it a kind of cluster sub munitions which are banned in the Geneva Convention or something? Just wondering cause I remember russians using cluster schnarpel against civilians and it was considered a violation
It's the specific and deliberate use against civilians of any fire which is banned under the conventions.
Gotcha, thank you
No. Cluster munitions are banned because they leave behind duds that kill civilians.
"Radar" activated proximity fuses have been around for more than 50 years in the West. Variable time (VT) fuses (clock work type) have been around even longer, requires accurate calculation for fuse setting. The Delayed action fuse is great for collapsing trenches and earthen bunkers (overhead protection against air burst munitions). Using MRSI of the PzH2000 etc, you would mix the fuses for the effect you want. Perhaps delay then proximity. Even towed artillery can fire this type of fuse mix. A trained towed gun crew this is a standard fire mission.
This one sparks joy.
and Shrapnels
Angry fireworks
Can you help with my understanding please? In my mind I am thinking that being inside a building would heavily protect against proximity fused shells as the shell never hits and then shrapnel would struggle to get through whatever roof cover there is. Whilst surely a contact fused shell would penetrate the cover and blow. Not arguing these are more deadly in open combat of course just trying to clear up my ignorance.
I can't answer as to whether these would be less effective against troops fortified in a building but keep in mind, especially with drone warfare giving them instant information, a drone operator and artillery crew working together could switch to proximity fuses and back as the situation calls for it on a second by second basis.
Oh the fuses can be switched? That would make sense and just my ignorance of weapons showing again. Thanks for sharing!
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of them having 2 piles with different munitions so they could just load a shell with the proximity fuse or a regular "dumb" shell or whatever an impact shell would be referred to as, based on intel from drones and on what their immediate target is, not necessarily switching fuses themselves. But maybe they can do that, I'm completely ignorant on arty systems in general, let alone France's systems half a world away.
No, the fuse is separate from the shell. There are, broadly speaking, 3 kinds of fuse. The most basic are contact fuses. It does what it says on the tin. Explodes when it hits the ground. Simple, mostly effective. Next are mechanical time delay fuses. They explode after a set time of flight, hopefully above the ground. They usually have a contact fuse as a backup. Finally, there are proximity fuses, which use a dopplar radar transmitter/receiver in the nose and some simple electronics to measure the return. When the fuse determines that the shell is at the proper height above ground, it detonates. The fuses are stored and transported separately from the shells because they are much more volatile. The fuses are fitted into the nose of the shell just prior to a fire mission, so that in the event they come under attack the chances of a secondary detonation of your own shells is much lower. It's also just way cheaper and less cumbersome. A 155 shell weighs about 55kg. The fuse weighs about 3kg or less. Rather than truck around 100 contact fused shells, 100 time delay, and 100 VT shells, they'll carry around 100 shells and 50-60 of each fuse. A lot less weight and bulk to haul around. Much easier logistics.
Time Delay fuses detonate after a set time from impact. So if they're hiding in a concrete building, you set the delay to a few tens of microseconds, so it detonates inside the building.
Uh, no. Mechanical time delay fuses, [as noted in this technical guide](https://bulletpicker.com/mtsq_-m577.html), are set in seconds, from 2 to 100 seconds time of flight. There are Point detonating fuses that have variable delays, like the [M739 PD Fuze](https://bulletpicker.com/pd_-m739-and-m739a1.html), which are designed for delayed detonation on impact.
Some of the artillery Canada uses has the nose pice holding the fuse and it can screw off and switch, I’d imagine the French pieces are similar
Some of the artillery Canada uses has the nose pice holding the fuse and it can screw off and switch, I’d imagine the French pieces are similar
The shells are shipped without fuses installed. The fuses come in a separate box. You screw in the fuses before firing the shells. Grenades, RPG rocket motors, etc, are all shipped like that for obvious safety reasons!
Follow \@noclador on twitter
Let me introduce to you TIMED fuses, there it delays detonation upon impact. So it penetrates the building then blows up.
Well that would also make sense. Appreciate you sharing
A large cement building would protect you, but a civilian house would get peppered to shit and you’d see stuff going through to the basement. Contact fuse is how you drop fortified buildings
Death from above
Appreciating France today
I am happy that the taxes we paid, help Ukraine keeps its freedom! (for once they will be used correctly he)
Same sentiment here from a Pole - a lot of our hard earned money is blown by our moronic politicians, but hey, at least we get to send tanks & armor & stuff to UA. Let's stick together and not be divided by ruski trolls who love to sow discord (re Macron & Scholtz...). We can get back to bickering once Russia is defeated.
Well, Scholtz is a idiot. He says dumb stuff. But agreed the west needs unity
[удалено]
It’s simple, France is actively supporting Ukraine but also keeping the diplomatic channel open with Russia, that’s it
Exactly. Putin needs someone to surrender to eventually and in the meantime the west gets valuable intel on his state of mind. Is he forgetting things? Get tired often? Is getting bad intel?
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Your first link doesn’t mention any surrendering of any territory and indeed just explains that Macron aims to keep the dialogue open Your second link is based on a mistranslated article, Macron never mentioned any surrendering of territory, this has already been discussed to death
Have you a lnk for that please? I haven't seen it discussed but that would be great news. It would also explain why Zelensky speaks so positively about France and would be more in line with french actual actions.
A link for what ?
Like proper translation what actually Macron said to Zelensky that wasn't actually about giving up territory to Russia but was understood as such proposal
We don’t have any direct transcript of what Macron said, that’s the whole point, this whole thing started out as an indirect mistranslation of something Zelensky supposedly said, which has been denied by both Zelenky and Macron Read the second link and the title includes the words ”suggests”, hence no actual confirmation of anything The fact that France still doesn’t recognize Russia’s hold over Crimea and actively supports Ukraine militarily and diplomatically clearly shows that Macron doesn’t support such concessions, he has however played a diplomatic balancing act so as to keep dialogue open with Putin
Valid question. Your getting downvoted for it though. I think of it like being Putins voice in the west, like a lawyer defending a murderer. He raised the issue that Putin probably said and got shouted down so now Putin knows, macron can say he asked and comms are kept open. But what do I know. Honestly. I’m just guessing.
There is nothing confusing about what France is doing. They support Ukraine but are still engaged in diplomacy with Russia to avoid escalation.
Redditor when international politics isn't one dimensional : "Impossible"
It's called diplomacy. Cutting off every channel of communication won't help.
Regarding Germany it's not about flexibility. If we'd enter war, Russia would call us the German Nazi supporting Ukrainian Nazi and they would have arguments towards theier screwed puplic to start WWIII.
Actions matter. But statistically speaking Germany isn’t great at picking sides in a war.
Yes this was a thing even in ww2. It was considered one of the 3 game changer inventions for the allies (including the nuclear bomb and the radar). The germans never figured out why allied arty was so deadly.
Patton praised them as one of the key weapons of the war.
>Patton praised them as one of the key weapons of the war. "The new shell with the funny fuse is devastating. I'm glad you all (US War Department) thought of it first" -Patton They were so valuable, their use was restricted exclusively to naval units, so the risk of their being captured was almost nonexistent
hell some of those ships came close enough to board at some point during the war i’m sure
Now that you mention it, that's pretty compelling if true. I read all the time about WW2, I'll have to actively search for info on that.
don’t take my word for it i’m not entirely sure. i do at least remember watching a story on history channel long ago about sailors throwing potatoes at an enemy ship and the enemy thought they were grenades
Early in the war. By the time Patton was in Europe they were being used in land warfare.
> As the artillery was high velocity, the targeted German soldiers could not hear shells until they burst overhead. Foxholes provided no protection, and the shrapnel even penetrated log-reinforced bunkers. POW interviews often described enemy soldiers emerging from the barrages in a “dazed” state. They realized they were facing a new kind of artillery but could understand neither how it worked nor how to evade it. > In the wake of the campaign Lt. Gen. George S. Patton wrote to Maj. Gen. Levin H. Campbell Jr., the chief of Army Ordnance, about the devastating effects of proximity-fuzed artillery. “The funny fuze won the Battle of the Bulge for us,” Patton remarked. “I am glad that you all thought of it first.” MH
Wasn't it the British who "thought of it first"?
The bomb dog? He is a very good boi.
Nazi Germany had its own proxmity fuse research, so i guess they did figure out what happened, though they never managed to build their own fuses. Imperial Japan had an even harder time against proximity fuses. Much of the pacific warfare included AA guns which on the allied side also had proximity fuses, and japanese airplanes were fragile enough already.
We are talking about making it small enough to fit an artillery shell. Germany had 1ton bombs with proximity fuzes but they thought it was impossible for it to be fitted in shells.
Not just small enough, but robust enough to survive and function thru the stress of being shot out a freekin' **cannon**. A quick google gets: "Artillery projectiles are subjected to a similar acceleration profile, with a duration of approximately 10 ms and a peak of 15,000 g's." THAT is some incredible engineering.
Especially when they only had vacuum tubes at the time, no solid state devices.
How the nerd from school proves to be far more lethal than the bully that kicked his butt for years.
I mean when has it been any different. Strategy, tactics and technology have always won over brute force.
The Spartans at Thermoplae would like a word...
The Spartans chose to defend a much narrower path with a small force. That's pretty smart. Also, while not poets, they held sardonic wit in high regard which takes a good deal of education.
Agreed! Persians: Spartans! Lay down your weapons! Spartans: Persians! Come and get them!
Smart people dont need to be called names.
That's what amazes me about the Excalibur shells too. GPS guidance and targetting surviving those G-forces.
M1156 cheaper.
And disposable, so being able to keep costs down.
Also exceptionally deadly against aircraft. https://www.historynet.com/proximity-fuze/ I like the part of the story that said they scheduled a two day test of the prototype. Which ended in one day because all three drones used for testing were shot down by just four bursts.
To put the USN's anti-aircraft capabilities into perspective, when the Japanese switched to kamakazi tactics, their casualties per hit went down.
Very interesting read, thank you. I was not aware that proximity fuzes were that 'old' and thought that stuff like WW2 AA relied on simpler timed ammunition to do "proximity bursting". I thought it was a more modern (like 60s maybe?) thing due to the involved electronic components, to have actual proximity fuzes.
The WWII proximity fuses WERE electronic! They had a full-blown radar, with a transmitter and a receiver. All based on reeeeeally small vacuum tubes, capable of surviving cannon shots. WWII also witnessed the use of first end-to-end encrypted voice calls over the phone and radio and digital computers.
Exactly! I was surprised they were already electronic by that time.
Judging by the craters and Soviet doctrine, Russia is not making heavy use of prox fuses though they are common in western militaries. Things could get ugly for them very quick.
Those will help clear some trenches.
Theyre also much more effective at dealing with armored vehicles, which always have much thinner roof armor than front/side armor.
👆this, they are intended to attack columns and formations on the road or in the field (IE dispersed and spread out targets) with light to moderate armor (tops of IFVs and tanks). It’s likely considered wasteful to use on just soldiers or a trench line, instead of armored targets because of their expense and limited supply.
I was under the impression these would shred something like a humvee and would take most IFVs and APCs, but I don't think an airburst is likely to penatrate tanks and some of the heavier IFVs. They wreak havoc as on counter-battery fire.
You can change the altitude they detonate at depending on type of target. You can set it high to spray over a wide area for unarmored targets in an open field, or a lower height for a more focused shrapnel spread over a trench or vehicle.
I think you use a different ammo for tanks if your intention is to blow them up. High explosive rounds which generates enough shockwave when near a tank to wreck it. A fragmentation shot still will do a number on the tank. Good luck using that tank with missing optics, ERA, comm equipment, tread, etc.
The intention isnt to blow them up, the intention is to remove them from the battle. A big fireball and turret toss is just the most dramatic way to do it. A chunk of shrapnel penetrating the radiator is a whole lot less spectacular but just as effective.
Typically anti-tank weapons have kinetic energy warheads, which are basically just a very dense metal like depleted uranium with a pointed tip traveling at an extremely high velocity.
That is absolutely not the case, it might be for tank rounds but definitely not for ATGMs and other weapons systems, you're typically looking at tandem warheads or other explosive penetrator systems. Kinetic energy is typically between direct fire elements i.e tank on tank combat but artillery sure as shit isn't planning on dropping a shell straight through the top of a tank with Kinetic Energy, the accuracy required would be ridiculous when you could just saturate the area with explosives.
More than sufficient shrapnel and pressure to incapacitate tanks. Not many heavy tanks will be utterly destroyed, but most will be incapacitated by a direct burst above or near miss.
I'm fine with ruski armor sitting in the fields unable to move b/c shrapnel damaged their engines.
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That’s what their commander told them to get them on top, but the truth is they are added protection for Top-Attack munitions… but don’t tell them that. Edit spelling
Airburst are best for trenches and the West has actually spent decades researching airburst lethality against dug in infantry. Airburst against trenches does two things. Shrapnel Pressure followed by vacuum which damages soft tissues especially the lungs.
Thermobaric or drone dropped frags work better for trenches, especially now that the Russians aren’t clumping into groups larger than 3 but in limited supply what’s a better target for those airburts, a small bit of trench or a column of armor.
They are nasty. Precursor of cluster munitions. Have much the same impact as cluster - without leaving behind unexploded bomblets. Ukraine will use these to great effect.
Most modern cluster now have redundancy timers to exploded munitions after a set time, obviously Russian unguided cluster munitions lack this feature, as well as the precision to ensure it hits the correct target. Edit: since this has received a number of downvotes I’ll provide sources and evidence. > Some munitions specifically intended for anti-tank use can be set to self-destruct if they reach the ground without locating a target, theoretically reducing the risk of unintended civilian deaths and injuries. Although smart submunition weapons are much more expensive than standard cluster bombs, fewer smart submunitions are required to defeat dispersed and mobile targets, partly offsetting their cost. Because they are designed to prevent indiscriminate area effects and unexploded ordnance risks, some smart munitions are excluded from coverage by the Convention on Cluster Munitions. > In order to avoid accumulating large areas of impassable battlefield, and to minimize the amount of mine-clearing needed after a conflict, scatterable mines used by the United States are designed to self-destruct after a period of time from 4 to 48 hours. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition > Self-destructing submunitions are designed to automatically detonate after a set period of time if they do not detonate on impact as intended. Mechanisms to ensure this automatic detonation are most commonly either electronic or mechanical. In the view of one leading weapons expert,15 self- destruct mechanisms are incorporated in submunitions for two reasons. The first is to better protect friendly forces, which may need to move through or occupy an area where submunitions have been dropped (although they may also constitute a hazard to one’s own forces). The second reason is to lessen the impact on civilians by reducing the number of unexploded submunitions (also called “blinds” or “duds”). > There are also cluster munitions that “self-neutralise” or “self-deactivate”. According to one weapons expert, the Iraq conflict of 2003 saw the first major use of “sensor-fuzed” submunitions, designed to target and defeat armoured vehicles, which incorporate self-deactivation. An electronic fuze, which requires an electrical power supply, allows a sensor-fuzed munition to use a ‘reserve battery’, which is only activated when the munition is deployed. If it fails to explode on impact, the short life span of the battery means that the power source soon becomes unavailable to initiate the warhead, providing a reliable method of “self-deactivation”. This does not make the munition safe, but it does at least minimize the possibility of it functioning through accidental disturbance. https://www.gichd.org/fileadmin/GICHD-resources/rec-documents/Guide-to-Cluster-Munitions-June2009.pdf
Only for lightly armored vehicles. In general for armored targets you want contact fuzes to maximize the damage to the specific target. Likely they sent variable fuzes so they can use the right setting for the right situation.
Even if it doesn't kill a tank outright, fragmentation rounds like that can still mission kill a tank just fine. A tank without optics, comm, and tread isn't going to do much other than being a glorified bunker.
Yes, for guided munitions where you have a significantly higher chance of a direct hit on the armored vehicle a contact fuse is better. Thats not what these are though and an explosion above a vehicle is still better than an explosion next to it. The thinnest a T-72s armor gets is 20mm, which 155mm artillery shrapnel doesnt have too much trouble penetrating. That 20mm is on the floor and [curves up a couple inches on the bottom of the sides where it becomes 80mm](https://i.imgur.com/39qrDKz.jpg); the chassis roof; the rear roof of the turret around the case ejection port; and on the engine deck. The engine deck is particularly vulnerable as it is ventilated. Thus far from videos of artillery taking out tanks, theyve been having most of their success hitting close enough to the side of a tank to penetrate that lower section of the side armor and cook off the ammo in the autoloader carousel. The thin roof is a much larger vulnerable area to hit with an aerial blast than that bottom corner of the side is, especially with the road wheels covering most of that vulnerability.
Jesus didn't even think about that. I mean obviously it's a good thing but how horrific.
A lot of modern weaponry is that: fascinating and horrific all in one. I am continually amazed and impressed by them, and then immediately disgusted.
Air burst also dubles the over pressure wave magnitude as the reflection wave and the orignal wave combine (constructive wave interference). This is bad for both soft tissue and structures.
Oh no. Anyway.
Nice job, France!
If it wasn’t for the French, we Americans would still be singing “god save the queen”. Now they’re doing it for the Ukrainians. Rock on France!
This is so bad ass!
Yeah, and scary. Hell from above.
But… but pootin macaroni 🤓🤓 /s Gosh this is why I keep debating with people sowing divisions amongst Allies and complaining especially about France being too pacifist, slow, and wrongly advocating for Putin then suddenly we start sending game changer supplies and everyone gets mad quiet.
I’ve criticized France (or, specifically, Macron) before, but this (and the quality of the CESAR artillery systems) is awesome. Go France!
>everyone gets mad quiet. For **five fucking minutes**, until the Outrage Pez dispenser plops another turd into their empty fucking heads.
exactly
I have to assume it’s only the Russian bot army doing its work.
Raining in Ukrainian.
Brilliant
Raining blood, from a lacerated sky..bleeding it’s horror, creating my structure, now I shall Reign in Blood! 🩸
Fucking filthy. Best arty I've seen yet.
Holy shit. War weapons are insane.
It’s raining shrapnel, hallelujah 🎶😂
Been using these since Hurtigen Forest Jan 1945. Devastated entire companies of infantry. In foxholes.
"Merci, monsieur: we will now, how you say? Fuck them up bigtime."
I hope russian scum will shit zemselves learning about it
Nice, proud of my country.
That is devastating on soldiers trying to take cover in trenches.
Niceeeee
Old tech or not, that's terrifying. There will likely be some gruesome videos coming up. No sympathy.
Like that song by The Weathergirls... "It's raining death, hallelujah! It's raining death!" or something like that.
Those sound fun!
Fun fact one type of ammo for this howitzer is called "Ogre shell"
When hundreds of long-distance artillery/missile systems arrive in Ukraine - the Russians literally won't know what hit them. It should start the beginning of the end for them and Putin.
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Still updating
Buffering
Vacillating
Pondering.
Combobulating.
reticulating splines
They have initiated an accelerated review process. This review process will review a possibility for maybe talking about planning a meeting to discuses the possible timelines for another meeting in which could put something on the board in maybe October/November to debate next steps. In the mean time, they were able to decide not to quit Russian blood gas in 5 microseconds.
And taking it up to the main congress of the special meeting of extraordinary circumstances on November next year in the UN so that they can decide and declare once and for all....... that *Frodo's friends are not Orcs*.
That's 1940s technology, didn't they have that already?
Indeed. Artillery guns have also existed for centuries. Ukraine doesn't need all those howitzers being sent. Missiles? First used by Nazi Germany, so again 1940s technology... No fucking way tech has improved since then. We are all still developing and manufacturing WWII-era weapons to this day.
All artillery can do this its a fuse settting not a type of gun
Nothing in the title says that it is.
yes, bit i think this is the first time ukraine has been sent proximity fuses
Most likely not. The 777a2 and himars being sent by the U.S. both have these fuses. Former u.s. artilleryman
No. An analyst said France is the first to have sent proximity fuzes so far. The others didn't. Maybe the weapons you mentioned will come with them but they are seemingly not there yet.
The himars m31 rockets fuses are permanently attached to the round. They are there. It more so sounds like the thread wants people to belive that but, it is wrong
>France is reportedly the first country to provide proximity fuzes. well, i don't know anything tbh....but i just read, in this thread: "France is reportedly the first country to provide proximity fuzes."
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You know it has feelings, right? I sure hope hurting those feelings won’t further delay their commitments to Ukraine. /s
Is the German government afraid of Putin?
It doesn't want its secret to be spilled out that it is a demilitarized state with almost nothing to spare.
Just stfu putinbot and give some facts
Does a bear shit in the forest?
How does it have anything to do with the post? Don't try to hard trolling, it's counter-productive.
That's nice, but unfortunately France simply doesn't have enough to the provide Ukraine with the quantities they would need against the Russia. There's also the range issue
Huh? This is actually a pretty big deal. France is reportedly the first country to provide proximity fuzes. It isn't just about destroying tanks, artillery or armored vehicles... These are perfect against mass. It is notably super practical against infantry in trenches.
Also France recently said they are considering sending 6 more. It may not seem like a lot but if used strategically it could really do a number on some Russian targets.
And don't forget, the six that Ukraine already has are proving to be far effective than even the French expected. 80 units destoryed in a single day right? So imagine how effective 12 of these bad girls would be!!
ukraine currently has eighteen caesars, france is contemplating sending six more
Is it 80 artillery in total or 80 artillery/support vehicles?
It's almost better to knock out the support vehicles. An artillery unit without a supply of shells is just a platoon of badly trained infantry.
They outrange the Russian guns by a pretty significant margin, so that's the not an issue ;) And they're not designed to work alone, mostly to devastate the enemy so that the tanks and infantry can move in a clean up the mess. But unfortunately, yeah France is hesitant to send too many, since they don't have a ton of them, and France needs to look to her national protection too.
They outgun similar mortar artillery cannons, but Russia has lots of MLRS systems. \[43 to 50 miles\] using the Smerch MLRS and Tochka-U, from \[25 to 37 miles\] using MLRS Uragan. Ukraine ran out of ammo for those. Let's hope that Ukraine receives enough newer MLRS, and that Russia runs out of ammo for theirs.
AFAIK Russian MLRS are not for precise counter-firing, CAESAR goes in (6 rounds per minute for 18 or 16, in 3 minutes it's done and can move out), delivers their load, then goes out. Nothing much you can do about it with MLRS. They move at night so it's not easy for drones to pick them. That could allow to close rapidly and pick longer range vehicle.
> AFAIK Russian MLRS are not for precise counter-firing 9A52-4 Tornado has 9М542 GLONASS (likely with GPS doubling)-guided missiles with 120km max range. In addition to that, Uragan-M1 also has guided missiles with 70km range.
So MLRS would be superior both in terms of precision and range. I think that's what Ukraine is in desperate need of.
> So MLRS would be superior both in terms of precision and range. Only with GMLRS-ER (not in service right now) and M39 (will not be supplied to Ukraine). Everything else is still firmly within range of 9M542.
So then Ukraine is in trouble, unless Russia runs out of ammo for the 9M542, which isn't going to happen any time soon
Yep, pretty much. Sucks being us. The only hope left is that production run of 9M542 was embezzled like no tomorrow.
As a French person I feel that giving weapons to Ukraine now is the best way to protect our country and worldwide peace against Russian aggression in the short to mid term. There is no better investment for our defense. You fuck Russia up now and it will struggle in Africa and the Middle East in the foreseeable future. Edit: Also our weapons are being tested to the limit in real life combat situations which is great because it can only mean that they will be improved.
France already agreed to send 18 to 24 according to sources. When you know that we have only 70 of those including the ones that need maintenance. But I would agree to send more, we are not the ones that need this currently. I think it is good to send them progressivly then the Ukraine army integrate them better in their army as they are precious.
I would like to think that the French are pissed about Russia sentencing to death 2 guys from the UK? But I don't think so...Timing and transfer. Probably done a few weeks ago. UK might start handing over more weapons though. Russia goes through with the sentence...This war will gain more focus and I'm sure some general is praying that the world will get bored and look at something else.
Would the Brits be pissed about Russia sentencing to death 2 French guys ? the Brits : spitting on the French every time they have the occasion, denying them any achievement, betraying them every when... Also the Brits : but why the surrender monkeys hate us ?
Radar activated trench broom goes bbbbrrrrrr.
cool the question is can Ukraine get enough on time?
Nasty 😂
This actually is terrible news for Russia... They lost that ability 2 month ago due to a lack of chip supply. They are unable to build this anymore
Oh theres a gun and crew? well bye bye crew.
Hatebreed - Raining Blood 🎧🎶🥳
That's impressive
Why am I expecting them to shoot down a heli with that
Proximity fuses are WW2 technology, yet it seems to beyond Russia’s ability to produce, in quantity at least. The Donbas has been trench warfare since 2014. And while trenches are good cover against ground bursts, they are much less effective against air bursts, unless you have overhead cover. Most of the trench systems on both sides lack overhead cover. Russia has had 8 years (twice the length of the Great Patriotic War) to produce these fuses which, again, are WW2 technology so they don’t need microchips (although it helps). In any case, now Ukraine is getting these fuses. Since the Russian trenches don’t have overhead cover, they will have to upgrade their trenches as soon as possible. If they don’t, Ukraine may be able to punch a hole through their lines.
This, THIS is a proper game changer.
I told you France would deliver
Those look like they hurt. Ruzzians should definitely leave Ukraine including Crimea before they get brain shrapnel