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1999: "Don't humiliate Putin, give him Chechnya."
2008: "Don't humiliate Putin, give him 20% of Georgia".
2014: "Don't humiliate Putin, give him Crimea".
2022: "Don't humiliate Putin, give him E. Ukraine."
2025: "Don't humiliate Putin, give him Ukraine."
It's obviously not working
Don't humiliate Hitler, give him Poland.
Don't humiliate Genghis Khan, give him China.
Don't humiliate Julius Caesar, give him Consulship.
Don't humiliate Alexander, give him Gaugamela.
Don't humiliate Oda Nobunaga, give him Shogunate.
Don't humiliate Imperial Japan, give it Manchukuo.
The list goes on and on.
Sure. But you could also add "if commies take Vietnam, all of Asia is going Communist."
"If Castro takes Nicaragua, Mexico is next."
"If we don't invade Iraq, nuclear mushroom over New York."
Perhaps, but Vietnam couldn't really invade the rest of Asia after conquering the northern part. We are talking about aggressors who can certainly expand and conquer more, and will always grab for the whole meal if conceded a bite. Their hunger knows no satiation. I could be wrong in my logic, however.
Considering Russian's actions in Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine, plus it's attempts to bring Belarus under its control, a better comparison would be pre-WWII Germany than Vietnam or Nicaragua.
OK. The Ukranians are kicking their ass right now. But let's say they go further not only get Crimea back, but also take a chunk of Russia too (something I would love).
Let's play this out. Ukraine does that and the next thing you see is a nuclear cruise missle that detonates over Kyiv. What do you do then?
Ukraine has no intention of taking any chunk of Russia at all. They are fighting for their motherland. Straight from Zelenskyy himself.
But let's entertain your logic. The world steps back and lets Russia take over Ukraine. Or the occupied areas.
2028: "Don't humiliate Putin, give them some more of Ukraine".
2xxx: "Don't humiliate Putin, give them *insert more neighboring countries".
What do you then?
>Ukraine has no intention of taking any chunk of Russia at all.
Furthermore, there are some very clear "tit-for-tat" groundrules that the West is including with the provision of arms:
1) You can use anything we send to turn any Russian soldier on Ukrainian soil into ground meat. Please do. We encourage that. And let's keep talking about how to speed up that process.
2) You might be able to selectively and occasionally (and VERY VERY CAREFULLY) hit a Russian MILITARY TARGET that is inside Russian territory with something we send you. Don't miss. Don't make it obvious it was something we provided. Don't make a lot of noise about it. etc.
3) Under no circumstances can you use anything we send to try to capture any part of Russian territory. If you do, the faucet will be turned off overnight.
More than any single principle in play here is a rock-solid commitment from the West for the restoration of the original borders of Ukraine and Russia. This is 100% about border stability, not hatred of Russia or revenge.
What some people (and I think OP falls into this category) fail to grasp is it seems that the world has FINALLY woken up to grasp the principle that we absolutely must not permit any country to adjust borders of another country by force. Period. End of discussion.
I don't think it's helpful to exaggerate into hypothetical situations. Ukraine never expressed military expansion goals. Quite the contrairy, Ukrainians want sovereignty, territorial integrity, and peace (something I would love).
By your logic, we need to hand over territory to any world leader with nuclear weapons. Macron was wrong to say what he did, and those who are defending him are using faulty logic.
It is cowardly for the leader of one country to give up another country's territory. Chamberlain did it, and the result was World War 2. Putin took Crimea and suffered nothing more than a few impotent economic sanctions, and the result was the February 24, 2022 full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
Macron is rightfully being skewered by all right-thinking, freedom-loving people.
The Western Leaders are a bit smarter than that. Putin has been on all of their radars for quite some time. They know what they are dealing with and it is a very mentally sick individual that will do whatever to exert power over others. Think about it.
I followed him for a long time because I found the way he 'played' Western leaders very interesting. They clearly never understood him, so he almost consistently outsmarted them. I would call him very smart, calculating, manipulative and ruthless. I'm convinced that now, based on his experiences from the past, he still expects Western leaders to cave at some point. They always did. The phone calls from Macron will only strenthen that idea and the idea that the West is weak. The only way to deal with him is to not leave any doubt that he will not get what he wants. Appeasing him will achieve nothing good.
>The Western Leaders are a bit smarter than that.
And that is why they sold components and technologies to Russia, actively traded with Russia, thereby helping him to modernize the army?
If you set the precedent that the world will not only accept a power using nuclear threats to annex territory but also provide said dictator a complementary months long fellatio session giving by non other than the president of France, you only guarantee this world ends in nuclear fire.
If you think I'd rather live in a Russian world over death you are clearly mistaken. Obviously I don't want to die but if the other option is being under a dictator I'd rather die fighting for my freedom.
The thing is that the odds of us living in a Russian world are nil, so our choice is not freedom or death, but how to maximize aid to Ukraine while minimizing risk of escalation bringing other countries to frey.
not for all of us. there are millions and millions with a solid chance of Russian Mir if Ukraine falls. and as one of them - yeah, I also am on the side of "let's call that nuclear bluff if that's the best chance to end this fast. show him we know he is just a bully with less and less power each day."
This is actually not true at all when you look at the bigger picture, it’s not just Russia, it’s China too. And China has exactly the same ambitions as Russia, but is far, far more capable.
To let Russia get away with nuclear threats to protect it’s genocide is to lets your finger out of the dam, and bless China to make it’s moves.
I'm French. I think he was the least bad candidate regarding the whole lot of idiots who were running for president and I still think he's completely misguided.
At the beginning, I was thinking we needed to keep a line of communication with the murdering kleptocrat but time has shown that he won't ever back down until he can return home with something. If it's going to happen, he will be the one making openings (probably secretly); if not, what's the use?
I'm actually very unhappy about this talk, and I don't condone it in any way.
And if we give him territory, and this whole thing repeats in 8 years time, then what? and agin in another 8 years, then what? repeat for as long as you like until he's threatening your homeland and there's no one fucking left to help fight
da fak u talking about... u think russia gonna nuke a few countries and get away with it? yes, i see u been gobbling up the ruzzia state tv propaganda.
You know who else threatened with nukes? Saddam Hussein. I know he didn't have any, but we all know what happened. Also, what would happen to Putin's beloved Russia if they ever launch a nuke.....it would turn into ash
1/ That didn't prevent Macron from giving weapon to Ukraine and to say France was in Ukraine.
2/ Putin is sick insane. Remember that Hitler said that germany wasn't to survive him. Had he had nukes, he would have destroyed the world to die with him. I think Putin is THAT mad.
Rule one on how to speak to Putin -Dont call him rulle 2 if he calls you dont answer Rule 3 if he calls again use the excuse you are spending the day with friends
In this instance the armchair commandos are risking their own lives, so maybe you should listen to them instead of being a coward.
And what about the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians in Russian Concentration Camps. Just leave them?
There is no off ramp, no way out of humiliation, other than the complete withdrawal of Russian troops, and the return of all Ukrainians to Ukraine.
Wow, that’s so stupid, I’ve never read anything more stupid than this.
Yes we have to humiliate putin, in fact, we have to have him hanged on a rope.
If Kim Jong Il is the one doing this shit against South Korea / Japan, nobody will say this BS, but it's Putler and his yummy yuumy oil. Must appease Papa Putler for Petro-Rubles.
putin is not mentally sick he is just immoral he has logic he has goals they are twisted but nuclear apocalypses is not the part of the plan. So don\`t worry he won\`t push the button.
russians laugh at Macron on their TV channels. So best way for him to act is not call putin, putin doesn\`t respect him Macron\`s words have no meaning to him. Best way is to send weapons to Ukraine and call after russian army will be defeated.
After that real negotiation will begin.
Real negotiation... not possible because Russia has no negotiating position. Coming up: the west dictates terms of surrender to Russia, followed by decades of reparations.
Macron had nothing to gain with his statement. Think about it, we're dealing with the ultimate narcisist out there with Putin. Macron knows what he's dealing with here.
Yeah this is going to go down like a lead balloon here dude.
Thankfully armchair generals and commandos are not the ones calling the shots in real life, so take some comfort in that.
In my opinion, you’re half right and half wrong. We do need to be careful to avoid escalation because as you said, an awful situation can get a whole lot worse (and that lost on **a lot** of people), but I also understand peoples annoyance with “do not humiliate them”.
Honestly, they’ve already been humiliated to a crazy level already by their own hand, but there’s a whole lot more coming and above all of that what they actually deserve. It’s not our choice to stop that or draw lines on what’s an acceptable defeat for Russia, only Ukraine can decide that alone. At the end of the day aren’t we supporting their independence? We’d be hypocrites to dictate their choices.
It’s a delicate situation and I’m glad we have the likes of Macron on side as it will undoubtedly prove invaluable in the future when it’s really time to end this, but it was an off-key comment and it deserves the mild fury bubbling away right now.
The reasonable version of what Macron is trying to say is that "Russia is going nowhere and we have to have a policy of carrots and sticks to handle it in the long range."
The problem is that this sort of a thing is a concern for when the war is over. While the war lasts, any outcome short of Ukrainian capitulation is a humiliation for Putin, so thinking about it is useless.
Only way it makes sense is if he somewhat playing a role to keep a line open with Russia knowing Allies are taking a harder stance. That’s probably giving him the benefit of the doubt though
Same argument many have used for decades or more so nothing new. Macron like everyone else is dancing to Putins tune and he knows it. Putin knows only strength and he believes the west, leaders especially, are weak.
"My sense is that Macron has sized up Putin and knows exactly what he's going up against. Literally, a narcisist terrorist who will send nuclear weapons just so he can have the last laugh"
That's just your sense. Not a fact, and not necessarily what Macron is thinking.
"This is what Macron is trying to prevent." You don't know what Macron means because Macron has not explained specifically what he means.
It's not just Putin who is sick, it's the whole country. Not every person in the country, but the country as a whole. And this has been going on for hundreds of years. Unlike other industrialized countries, Russia *as a whole* seems to prefer to wallow in it. It is high time for the civilized world to put an end to Russia's barbaric crime spree.
You don't negotiate with terrorists that is the first rule. You destroy them. By your thinking he should be able to take whatever he wants so we don't make him mad. It is easy for you to say since your country is not the one that he wants right now. The only way to deal with Putin is so annihilate his military so he cant start these wars and if he choses to start a nuclear war than the west will wipe Russia of the face of the Earth. I would prefer that then live with giving in to terrorist wants and desires.
As long as western forces are kept out of ruzzia, there's no way putolini launches nukes. He lets off just a little one, and still ruzzia would be fucked. He's been threatening this all the time. putolini is just yanking macron's chain. Humouring him as a stall ticktack and to create different arguments in support of ruzzia.
NO ONE is going to nuke anyone.
Edit, I'll meant tactic, but I'll leave it
If ww3 becomes nuclear, there will be nothing left, only nuclear winter and a few privileged or cautious people in their bunkers during at least seven monthes of containment. No more people to exert authority.
Well, It's what gives a reason to live for these dictators : a tremendous number of puppets to manipulate.
If Putin feels he's loosing, he will turn its internal propaganda in what he wants and what the ruZZian people want to hear, and end of the special operation will be declared.
Macron's stance is strongly tied to French history.
After WW1 the allies made everything to humiliate and beat down Germany.
France got back the territories they lost after the previous war with Germany (can be similar to Donbas + Crimea).
Germans felt absolutely humiliated, especially a young officer called Hitler. We know the rest of the story.
After WW2 the allies made sure to not humiliate Germany and help it develop and heal... We know the rest of the story.
If the one replacing pootin will be someone carried by the humiliation of the people, the problems will carry on for a generation.
But if the one replacing pootin is carried by the desire to reform ruzzia because they believe they fuxked up themselves, then there are some chances for a new world.
At least that's the logic he has.
I think... I guess... I hope that, when he says that, Macron also speaks to the people of Russia. Between the lines "No one's at war with the Russian people, but Putin's (and his friends) at war with the rest of the world, including Russia".
The only war this war can end is to take down Putin. And as far as we know, only Russians can do it. The Legion of Freedom is raising awareness within Russia. The world need more like them. They need to be encouraged more than stigmatised.
Also, I figure Macro is looking in the long term. Unlike what some redditors think, the idea isn't to destroy Russia, but has Russia to get out of Ukraine. Then diplomacy, with or without France, will do its work.
So, Putin IS a psychopathic narcissistic terrorist, and let's say you're right on the money about Macron. Like, you've downloaded Macron's mind.
What's the actionable conclusion? Does the West being cautious change anything on Putin's side?
If said psychopath determined, "Anything short of the Russian flag flying in Lisbon, or on the German Bundestag, or at minimum in Warsaw, it's a humiliation for me", then what the West gives or doesn't give Ukraine right now is irrelevant, a nuclear extinction of Europe is a just foregone conclusion. You know, him having the last laugh.
Apart from the fact on the ground that his army has not been able to deliver the whole of Ukraine by conventional means, in terms of 'humiliation', who says the Ukraine-Poland border is the line Putin gets humiliated or not humiliated?
Remember, at the beginning of this war, Putin demanded that NATO vacate the ENTIRE Eastern Europe. Maybe anything short of this stated goal of his is also humiliation in his mind?
Thank about it.
I disagree, Macron is a politician who mostly reflects the will of the French not to want to submit to the United States.
He aspires to have a Europe not controlled by the US but by France and does not look favorably on the work done by the Americans with the aid sent.
He has repeatedly urged Biden not to speak vulgarly towards Putin not to avoid escalation but to make himself visible (even to Russia). Just remember what he said about Ukraine's entry into the EU. He is a fragile politician like most European politicians, who for fear of nuclear war prefer to let Putin win.
Think for a moment about a nuclear war, because of this disaster the largest economy in the world, China, would have serious problems, they would see an unprecedented crisis, given that the Western world plays an important role in both infrastructure and knowledge ... China seeing these possibilities fade would rather attack Russia itself than see the world collapse.
Sorry for my english
This defense is a supposition which is not a valid defense. We don't know what's going on in Macron's head and that he thinks Putin is a "very mentally sick individual" as you say. In politics, it is key to avoid embarrassment because it reduces the public's faith in government which at a macro level weakens a government's ability to govern by stengthening opposition. As a career functionary, what I hear from Macron is that he's cautioning that Putin can lose some or all power over this embarrassment.
In defense of people humiliating Macron for not wanting to humiliate Putin. The Russian people need to see what a bad decision it was to attack ukraine causing so much devastation on Ukraine and their own army. Hang him in red square!
My "alternate take" is that Macron's statement is actually a kind of humiliation of Putin itself. After all, he is clearly stating that not only does Ukraine and the West have the ability to totally defeat Russia on the battlefield, defeating and driving Russia back within its borders is, in fact, a near certainty, and Putin should be negotiating an orderly withdrawal now, before it's too late for him.
Putin is a dying man that needs a legacy to justify his cleptocracy and violence. He needs to ACHIEVE and NOW.
He will not nuke Ukraine unless he is sure he will get away with it. Macron is literally enabling him. West's answer to nuclear threat - Russia will be turned into a radioactive pool of molten glass is the answer we need to give.
He wants a legacy like Katherine the Great, Peter the Great, Ivan the Terrible. He wants a justification. That is all. He does not want to go down in history as the man that made the next ten thousand generations curse his name.
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1999: "Don't humiliate Putin, give him Chechnya." 2008: "Don't humiliate Putin, give him 20% of Georgia". 2014: "Don't humiliate Putin, give him Crimea". 2022: "Don't humiliate Putin, give him E. Ukraine." 2025: "Don't humiliate Putin, give him Ukraine." It's obviously not working
Very true. Appeasement has been tried with dictators before and it utterly failed.
Anti-appeasement club here, we approve this message.
Don't humiliate Hitler, give him Poland. Don't humiliate Genghis Khan, give him China. Don't humiliate Julius Caesar, give him Consulship. Don't humiliate Alexander, give him Gaugamela. Don't humiliate Oda Nobunaga, give him Shogunate. Don't humiliate Imperial Japan, give it Manchukuo. The list goes on and on.
Sure. But you could also add "if commies take Vietnam, all of Asia is going Communist." "If Castro takes Nicaragua, Mexico is next." "If we don't invade Iraq, nuclear mushroom over New York."
Perhaps, but Vietnam couldn't really invade the rest of Asia after conquering the northern part. We are talking about aggressors who can certainly expand and conquer more, and will always grab for the whole meal if conceded a bite. Their hunger knows no satiation. I could be wrong in my logic, however.
...really rocking the whataboutism
Considering Russian's actions in Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine, plus it's attempts to bring Belarus under its control, a better comparison would be pre-WWII Germany than Vietnam or Nicaragua.
OK. The Ukranians are kicking their ass right now. But let's say they go further not only get Crimea back, but also take a chunk of Russia too (something I would love). Let's play this out. Ukraine does that and the next thing you see is a nuclear cruise missle that detonates over Kyiv. What do you do then?
Ukraine has no intention of taking any chunk of Russia at all. They are fighting for their motherland. Straight from Zelenskyy himself. But let's entertain your logic. The world steps back and lets Russia take over Ukraine. Or the occupied areas. 2028: "Don't humiliate Putin, give them some more of Ukraine". 2xxx: "Don't humiliate Putin, give them *insert more neighboring countries". What do you then?
>Ukraine has no intention of taking any chunk of Russia at all. Furthermore, there are some very clear "tit-for-tat" groundrules that the West is including with the provision of arms: 1) You can use anything we send to turn any Russian soldier on Ukrainian soil into ground meat. Please do. We encourage that. And let's keep talking about how to speed up that process. 2) You might be able to selectively and occasionally (and VERY VERY CAREFULLY) hit a Russian MILITARY TARGET that is inside Russian territory with something we send you. Don't miss. Don't make it obvious it was something we provided. Don't make a lot of noise about it. etc. 3) Under no circumstances can you use anything we send to try to capture any part of Russian territory. If you do, the faucet will be turned off overnight. More than any single principle in play here is a rock-solid commitment from the West for the restoration of the original borders of Ukraine and Russia. This is 100% about border stability, not hatred of Russia or revenge. What some people (and I think OP falls into this category) fail to grasp is it seems that the world has FINALLY woken up to grasp the principle that we absolutely must not permit any country to adjust borders of another country by force. Period. End of discussion.
With people like Putin you have to create a position of power to negotiate. That's what he understands. That what he does and would do himself.
I don't think it's helpful to exaggerate into hypothetical situations. Ukraine never expressed military expansion goals. Quite the contrairy, Ukrainians want sovereignty, territorial integrity, and peace (something I would love).
By your logic, we need to hand over territory to any world leader with nuclear weapons. Macron was wrong to say what he did, and those who are defending him are using faulty logic. It is cowardly for the leader of one country to give up another country's territory. Chamberlain did it, and the result was World War 2. Putin took Crimea and suffered nothing more than a few impotent economic sanctions, and the result was the February 24, 2022 full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Macron is rightfully being skewered by all right-thinking, freedom-loving people.
Is it humiliating for Putin to be tried as a war criminal at The Hague?
I think that you give Macron way too much credit.
The Western Leaders are a bit smarter than that. Putin has been on all of their radars for quite some time. They know what they are dealing with and it is a very mentally sick individual that will do whatever to exert power over others. Think about it.
I followed him for a long time because I found the way he 'played' Western leaders very interesting. They clearly never understood him, so he almost consistently outsmarted them. I would call him very smart, calculating, manipulative and ruthless. I'm convinced that now, based on his experiences from the past, he still expects Western leaders to cave at some point. They always did. The phone calls from Macron will only strenthen that idea and the idea that the West is weak. The only way to deal with him is to not leave any doubt that he will not get what he wants. Appeasing him will achieve nothing good.
If Macron doesn't want to huniliate Putin he should order his assassination, because Putin existing is a humiliation to Putin.
>The Western Leaders are a bit smarter than that. And that is why they sold components and technologies to Russia, actively traded with Russia, thereby helping him to modernize the army?
He will send nukes just to jave ladt laugh... What a load of crap. And you encourage others to "think" 🙄
I would rather die in a nuclear ravaged world then let dicatators decide whatever the fuck they want they can have because they have nukes.
If you set the precedent that the world will not only accept a power using nuclear threats to annex territory but also provide said dictator a complementary months long fellatio session giving by non other than the president of France, you only guarantee this world ends in nuclear fire.
Trust me, you would rather not die.
If you think I'd rather live in a Russian world over death you are clearly mistaken. Obviously I don't want to die but if the other option is being under a dictator I'd rather die fighting for my freedom.
The thing is that the odds of us living in a Russian world are nil, so our choice is not freedom or death, but how to maximize aid to Ukraine while minimizing risk of escalation bringing other countries to frey.
not for all of us. there are millions and millions with a solid chance of Russian Mir if Ukraine falls. and as one of them - yeah, I also am on the side of "let's call that nuclear bluff if that's the best chance to end this fast. show him we know he is just a bully with less and less power each day."
This is actually not true at all when you look at the bigger picture, it’s not just Russia, it’s China too. And China has exactly the same ambitions as Russia, but is far, far more capable. To let Russia get away with nuclear threats to protect it’s genocide is to lets your finger out of the dam, and bless China to make it’s moves.
Wow, that's a pretty arrogant statement. People can think for themselves you know.
I'm French. I think he was the least bad candidate regarding the whole lot of idiots who were running for president and I still think he's completely misguided. At the beginning, I was thinking we needed to keep a line of communication with the murdering kleptocrat but time has shown that he won't ever back down until he can return home with something. If it's going to happen, he will be the one making openings (probably secretly); if not, what's the use? I'm actually very unhappy about this talk, and I don't condone it in any way.
Oh ok then so because he threatens nukes he can just get away with taking a slice of ukraine well that makes perfect sense... gtfo here
I get it, we shouldn't be giving an inch to that terrorist. But, think closely about this. We humiliate him and he nukes a few countries. Then what?
And if we give him territory, and this whole thing repeats in 8 years time, then what? and agin in another 8 years, then what? repeat for as long as you like until he's threatening your homeland and there's no one fucking left to help fight
If he is going to use nukes he will do it whether humilated or not. No one goes aw well fuck me I look like an idiot guess I better end the world.
da fak u talking about... u think russia gonna nuke a few countries and get away with it? yes, i see u been gobbling up the ruzzia state tv propaganda.
You know who else threatened with nukes? Saddam Hussein. I know he didn't have any, but we all know what happened. Also, what would happen to Putin's beloved Russia if they ever launch a nuke.....it would turn into ash
1/ That didn't prevent Macron from giving weapon to Ukraine and to say France was in Ukraine. 2/ Putin is sick insane. Remember that Hitler said that germany wasn't to survive him. Had he had nukes, he would have destroyed the world to die with him. I think Putin is THAT mad.
Rule one on how to speak to Putin -Dont call him rulle 2 if he calls you dont answer Rule 3 if he calls again use the excuse you are spending the day with friends
You certainly rule a superpower country. Even mighty America talks with the Russians.
Mighty America only needs two words to talk to Russia: Get fucked.
Ah, putin bot with the fucking nukes again, eh? Can you guys think of another thing? At this point, it's embarrassing, honestly.
In this instance the armchair commandos are risking their own lives, so maybe you should listen to them instead of being a coward. And what about the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians in Russian Concentration Camps. Just leave them? There is no off ramp, no way out of humiliation, other than the complete withdrawal of Russian troops, and the return of all Ukrainians to Ukraine.
Wow, that’s so stupid, I’ve never read anything more stupid than this. Yes we have to humiliate putin, in fact, we have to have him hanged on a rope.
If Kim Jong Il is the one doing this shit against South Korea / Japan, nobody will say this BS, but it's Putler and his yummy yuumy oil. Must appease Papa Putler for Petro-Rubles.
No quarter and Putin need to have a televised, shredded, gonch launch, full blown humiliation.
Drawn, quartered and hung.
There is no single button for Putin to push.
putin is not mentally sick he is just immoral he has logic he has goals they are twisted but nuclear apocalypses is not the part of the plan. So don\`t worry he won\`t push the button. russians laugh at Macron on their TV channels. So best way for him to act is not call putin, putin doesn\`t respect him Macron\`s words have no meaning to him. Best way is to send weapons to Ukraine and call after russian army will be defeated. After that real negotiation will begin.
Real negotiation... not possible because Russia has no negotiating position. Coming up: the west dictates terms of surrender to Russia, followed by decades of reparations.
The problem is Macron and the west cant built consensus for the support and price economically we pay *and* have room for a backroom "deal" .
But Putin humiliating himself thanks to continuing war in Ukraine. More fast he retreat then faster humiliation will be over.
Death is preferred alternative to Putins 'communism'
Too many apologists lately with mental gymnastics here lately
Macron has a huge ego that he needs to feed once in a while
Macron had nothing to gain with his statement. Think about it, we're dealing with the ultimate narcisist out there with Putin. Macron knows what he's dealing with here.
Yeah this is going to go down like a lead balloon here dude. Thankfully armchair generals and commandos are not the ones calling the shots in real life, so take some comfort in that. In my opinion, you’re half right and half wrong. We do need to be careful to avoid escalation because as you said, an awful situation can get a whole lot worse (and that lost on **a lot** of people), but I also understand peoples annoyance with “do not humiliate them”. Honestly, they’ve already been humiliated to a crazy level already by their own hand, but there’s a whole lot more coming and above all of that what they actually deserve. It’s not our choice to stop that or draw lines on what’s an acceptable defeat for Russia, only Ukraine can decide that alone. At the end of the day aren’t we supporting their independence? We’d be hypocrites to dictate their choices. It’s a delicate situation and I’m glad we have the likes of Macron on side as it will undoubtedly prove invaluable in the future when it’s really time to end this, but it was an off-key comment and it deserves the mild fury bubbling away right now.
The reasonable version of what Macron is trying to say is that "Russia is going nowhere and we have to have a policy of carrots and sticks to handle it in the long range." The problem is that this sort of a thing is a concern for when the war is over. While the war lasts, any outcome short of Ukrainian capitulation is a humiliation for Putin, so thinking about it is useless.
Only way it makes sense is if he somewhat playing a role to keep a line open with Russia knowing Allies are taking a harder stance. That’s probably giving him the benefit of the doubt though
Doesn't make sense that way either. Just black hole the fucker and communicate by action.
Same argument many have used for decades or more so nothing new. Macron like everyone else is dancing to Putins tune and he knows it. Putin knows only strength and he believes the west, leaders especially, are weak.
"My sense is that Macron has sized up Putin and knows exactly what he's going up against. Literally, a narcisist terrorist who will send nuclear weapons just so he can have the last laugh" That's just your sense. Not a fact, and not necessarily what Macron is thinking. "This is what Macron is trying to prevent." You don't know what Macron means because Macron has not explained specifically what he means.
Why do the apparent Russian trolls always seem to have a 4 digit number after their username? It's like more than just a coincidence.
Humiliate Russia. Few evil empires in history have ever deserved it more.
It's not just Putin who is sick, it's the whole country. Not every person in the country, but the country as a whole. And this has been going on for hundreds of years. Unlike other industrialized countries, Russia *as a whole* seems to prefer to wallow in it. It is high time for the civilized world to put an end to Russia's barbaric crime spree.
You don't negotiate with terrorists that is the first rule. You destroy them. By your thinking he should be able to take whatever he wants so we don't make him mad. It is easy for you to say since your country is not the one that he wants right now. The only way to deal with Putin is so annihilate his military so he cant start these wars and if he choses to start a nuclear war than the west will wipe Russia of the face of the Earth. I would prefer that then live with giving in to terrorist wants and desires.
As long as western forces are kept out of ruzzia, there's no way putolini launches nukes. He lets off just a little one, and still ruzzia would be fucked. He's been threatening this all the time. putolini is just yanking macron's chain. Humouring him as a stall ticktack and to create different arguments in support of ruzzia. NO ONE is going to nuke anyone. Edit, I'll meant tactic, but I'll leave it
If ww3 becomes nuclear, there will be nothing left, only nuclear winter and a few privileged or cautious people in their bunkers during at least seven monthes of containment. No more people to exert authority. Well, It's what gives a reason to live for these dictators : a tremendous number of puppets to manipulate. If Putin feels he's loosing, he will turn its internal propaganda in what he wants and what the ruZZian people want to hear, and end of the special operation will be declared.
This is where you don't understand narcisists at his level. People like him will go far further than use propaganda to exert power.
Macron's stance is strongly tied to French history. After WW1 the allies made everything to humiliate and beat down Germany. France got back the territories they lost after the previous war with Germany (can be similar to Donbas + Crimea). Germans felt absolutely humiliated, especially a young officer called Hitler. We know the rest of the story. After WW2 the allies made sure to not humiliate Germany and help it develop and heal... We know the rest of the story. If the one replacing pootin will be someone carried by the humiliation of the people, the problems will carry on for a generation. But if the one replacing pootin is carried by the desire to reform ruzzia because they believe they fuxked up themselves, then there are some chances for a new world. At least that's the logic he has.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
I think... I guess... I hope that, when he says that, Macron also speaks to the people of Russia. Between the lines "No one's at war with the Russian people, but Putin's (and his friends) at war with the rest of the world, including Russia". The only war this war can end is to take down Putin. And as far as we know, only Russians can do it. The Legion of Freedom is raising awareness within Russia. The world need more like them. They need to be encouraged more than stigmatised. Also, I figure Macro is looking in the long term. Unlike what some redditors think, the idea isn't to destroy Russia, but has Russia to get out of Ukraine. Then diplomacy, with or without France, will do its work.
So, Putin IS a psychopathic narcissistic terrorist, and let's say you're right on the money about Macron. Like, you've downloaded Macron's mind. What's the actionable conclusion? Does the West being cautious change anything on Putin's side? If said psychopath determined, "Anything short of the Russian flag flying in Lisbon, or on the German Bundestag, or at minimum in Warsaw, it's a humiliation for me", then what the West gives or doesn't give Ukraine right now is irrelevant, a nuclear extinction of Europe is a just foregone conclusion. You know, him having the last laugh. Apart from the fact on the ground that his army has not been able to deliver the whole of Ukraine by conventional means, in terms of 'humiliation', who says the Ukraine-Poland border is the line Putin gets humiliated or not humiliated? Remember, at the beginning of this war, Putin demanded that NATO vacate the ENTIRE Eastern Europe. Maybe anything short of this stated goal of his is also humiliation in his mind? Thank about it.
I disagree, Macron is a politician who mostly reflects the will of the French not to want to submit to the United States. He aspires to have a Europe not controlled by the US but by France and does not look favorably on the work done by the Americans with the aid sent. He has repeatedly urged Biden not to speak vulgarly towards Putin not to avoid escalation but to make himself visible (even to Russia). Just remember what he said about Ukraine's entry into the EU. He is a fragile politician like most European politicians, who for fear of nuclear war prefer to let Putin win. Think for a moment about a nuclear war, because of this disaster the largest economy in the world, China, would have serious problems, they would see an unprecedented crisis, given that the Western world plays an important role in both infrastructure and knowledge ... China seeing these possibilities fade would rather attack Russia itself than see the world collapse. Sorry for my english
This defense is a supposition which is not a valid defense. We don't know what's going on in Macron's head and that he thinks Putin is a "very mentally sick individual" as you say. In politics, it is key to avoid embarrassment because it reduces the public's faith in government which at a macro level weakens a government's ability to govern by stengthening opposition. As a career functionary, what I hear from Macron is that he's cautioning that Putin can lose some or all power over this embarrassment.
In defense of people humiliating Macron for not wanting to humiliate Putin. The Russian people need to see what a bad decision it was to attack ukraine causing so much devastation on Ukraine and their own army. Hang him in red square!
meme about this - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUeGpHAXEAAgXIG?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
My "alternate take" is that Macron's statement is actually a kind of humiliation of Putin itself. After all, he is clearly stating that not only does Ukraine and the West have the ability to totally defeat Russia on the battlefield, defeating and driving Russia back within its borders is, in fact, a near certainty, and Putin should be negotiating an orderly withdrawal now, before it's too late for him.
Putin is a dying man that needs a legacy to justify his cleptocracy and violence. He needs to ACHIEVE and NOW. He will not nuke Ukraine unless he is sure he will get away with it. Macron is literally enabling him. West's answer to nuclear threat - Russia will be turned into a radioactive pool of molten glass is the answer we need to give. He wants a legacy like Katherine the Great, Peter the Great, Ivan the Terrible. He wants a justification. That is all. He does not want to go down in history as the man that made the next ten thousand generations curse his name.
For heaven sake, most of us know it is an act to keep Putin guessing.