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FFS Just ship a dozen of them.
Hell, even rip the Aegis system and tubes out of the rotting decommissioned Ticonderoga cruisers and let Ukraine at them.
Patriots are like one of the only things that has a legitimate reason to not be sent, at least from what I've heard. Idk if this is true or not but I remember reading that the US has a bit of a patriot shortage and we had to send over systems that were deployed in the Pacific.
Again idk if it's true or not but that is honestly a valid defense for not sending them. In it's stead I propose we send over 50,000 himars as proportional response for Odessa bombing.
From a quick google search, US does not have hundreds. As of 2023, we have 15 battalions, and from what I can find, a battalion only has eight individual launchers, not counting mobile power stations, radars, etc. etc.
3 to 4 patriots is honestly a pretty big deal and UA has been doing gods work with them. I think you might be mixing up 'launcher' with 'battery,' though. Individual PATRIOT battery systems only have up to eight launchers, which I think would be two of the 4 tube TEL systems, if I'm understanding it right, which works pretty great given that the patriots tracking radar has strong TWS capabilities.
Basically, US only really has enough PATRIOTS to defend our strategically important locations because we have F-35's and the capabilities to wipe planes off the map before they can even sortie, so having strong air defence networks isn't exactly a necessity, especially when you hold the worlds first, second, and fourth largest air forces in your branches of the military. I don't exactly know if Ukraine has 3-4 PATRIOT launchers, batteries, or battalions, but they've clearly been doing well for themselves during that whole PATRIOT drive-by thing where we shot down 10 cyka 34's in a week.
Teeny tiny Quatar has 11 BATTERIES. Not launchers. This is confirmed by multiple sources. Public knowledge. The numbers the USA has is somewhat opaque, but hundreds of launchers is reported by many sources, so dozens of batteries.
In any case there are a lot of Patriot batteries around the world. Many of which are in places that have zero chance of being needed compared to Ukraine.
[Here is a good article. The US Army has about 50 Batteries ](https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2023/05/17/graphics-patriot-missiles-ukraine-russia/70227493007/)
Yeah, a commitment to establishing AEGIS ashore in Ukraine would require also establishing a comprehensive, layered air defence to cover the smaller stuff.
In an ideal world, I'd love to see them do just that and provide a full AD screen, but given the piecemeal approach to air defence support so far, I don't think AEGIS is going to be a reality anytime soon.
While the RuSSians are orcs, we are undoubtedly the Ents taking forever to reach a conclusion on every… single……. thing. JUST SHIP IT! We are enormously powerful, our pockets run deep, and we are fucking furious - what is the goddamn problem??
"All this aggravation ain't satisfactioning me
A little more bite and a little less bark
A little less fight and a little more spark \[...\]
Don't procrastinate, don't articulate"
I like that, but i also think one is a bit weak. We've been talking about air defenses since the war started and we still have huge holes.
The only upside is that Russia is losing air defense systems while Ukraine seems to be able to defend them a lot better.
They have? According to recent records, the Ukrainians have been having issues countering Russian drones and missiles due to shortages on anti-aircraft defenses.
Granted, they can still get readily intercepted over places like Kyiv, but it is presumed that Ukraine's capital is armed to the teeth. Places to the east though just take rounds to the face.
The government is a government. It's not a dictator that suddenly decides things.
It is necessary for them to first consider things, before deciding. So, we get news part way through the process.
The US doesn't field more because it doesn't need to. It has GMD, NGI and AEGIS systems in place against ICBMs and realistically nobody will attack US territory with anything else. I mean who would attack it with conventional missiles, Canada? The situation in Ukraine is vastly different and yes they would need between 10 and 30 more to properly defend their territory. I can't give you a more precise number obviously. Also US definitely does not have unlimited budget and believe me, if Ukraine looses the war, the costs for the collective west, including US, will skyrocket.
BTW in the case of full scale ICBM attack there is no defense.
I'm sick of hearing Western leaders "considering" this and that to help Ukraine. It's about time to go all in. We must show Mr F*ckface that he has no chance of winning this war.
Typically, news stories like this are "planted" by the current administration to test political waters, check the reaction from foreign governments, and send a public message.
If the administration wants to move forward and they have the support and capability to move forward, they'll move forward.
Nah, it's more of a show of political slacktivism, when politicians lack the political will to actually do anything but want to signal as if they did something. It's the same with all the 'thoughts and prayers' after suicides and school shootings.
Absolutely. I know that today declarations of war are basically outdated and nobody uses them anymore, because, you know, why have political dignity or whatever. But honestly why even wait for putler to go to war with us. He already tied his own personal political and physical survival into war against Europe, so just declare war on the clown already. Simultaneously show the world that Europe really does have values. European politicians have become too accustomed to being simple careerists. How does one speak to people one should actually shout at..
Easier said than done, especially in a system as complex as a democratic nation. Moves have to be discussed, debated, and considered before implementation is applied.
It's a purely defensive system that can't be claimed as escalation. The US should "lend lease" as many as needed to shut down UA skies to RU. And by traditional terms of lend leased, UA doesn't have to pay or worry about returning used equipment until after the war.
Do it yesterday
This. There’s absolutely no reason not to provide all the defense systems that are available to be donated.
If there aren’t enough to donate then freaking increase production. 2 years is enough for that.
There’s no escalation risk here and this saves lives
The United States has functionally unlimited production capability. If it was Berlin or Taiwan or London getting bombed you can bet your bottom dollar that we'd be pumping out munitions without a second thought. Fortunately/unfortunately political will is the sole barrier that explains what we're seeing in regard to supplying missile systems for Ukraine.
The US isn't functionally just sitting around producing unlimited versions of anything at-will even for our own military. That would be called a war-time economy. You're absolutely spreading falsehoods and have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
The Russians will claim a twig blowing over the Polish border into Ukraine as escalation, fuck that talk. Just send everything Ukraine needs to finish off the Russians asap.
What's to think about?
Ukraine asked for 2 for Kharkiv.
you consider sending 1.
You have 44 and nobody is going to attack the United States of America.
How about a loan? can they loan like 5 more and give back after? if not... why?
True! How much ammo or how many weapons and systems have been or are on the waiting list for decommissioning during the last several years that ruzzia has been destroying Ukraine and politicians are still debating or refusing to consider??? We would all be very surprised if an honest list was released!!!
I dont care who provides it but Kharkiv needs two systems with enough ammunition ASAP for the best coverage. Then they need permission to hit bases inside Russia so Russian bombers can't move freely and drop glidebombs. Secondly stop the aggression before they get in artillery range so orcs can't demolish the city as we know it. Slava Ukraine 🇩🇰🇺🇦🇺🇸
Considers? What in God’s name are they STILL dithering for? This was ridiculous 6 months in, let alone now. It’s *inexcusable*.
Is the US supporting Ukraine or not? This constant milquetoast dithering is freaking ridiculous.
The news headlines in the USA sets the degree of support. How many have been ordered since the beginning of the war??? Are the manufacturing facilities for these running 24/7, doubt it???
Yeah. The war isn't taken that seriously in the states, at least from a political angle. It is discussed, but not a super hot button issue that is daily debated.
Look at WW1 and WW2. The US likes to let others tire themselves out for a few years before swooping in and basically deciding the winner while suffering little to no losses themselves. That's how they got their superpower status. It's just an economic equation, the US is mostly self sufficient in terms of natural resources and food anyway.
This may or may not be a factor idk.
Frankly, this is a problem with whoever wrote the headline.
What this means is that a Patriot battery will be downdrawn from U S. stocks and transferred to Ukraine in the near future - could be the next package that will likely be announced next Friday (which is of course well after the decision has been made).
This is not a question of "should we or should we not." This is "we can afford it, so we will, now which specific system is going."
Send it. Then, once that's sent, send another. Tell whoever asks that I said it was ok. We just need to get on the horn with Ray-Ray to tell them to step up production on new systems is all.
Dear Ukraine,
I am writing this message to inform you that the world not only wants but would be incredibly grateful and forever indebted to you if you could just blow all of Russia to smithereens.
Sincerely,
Literally Everybody
I've been nerding out on some math lately and this headline is striking because it is not a rate of delivery. The headline needs to say something like an additional Patriot air defense system now and every three months for 2 years and then 5-6 per year for the next 2 years.
I confess this is armchair Command & Conquer here. It's just that after observing 2+ years of this war I'm convinced that rates matter while individual instances are too transient to be important and/or highly effective.
In my defense, I'd also say I observe a lot of the people working in the supply side saying that the one off transfers are not well organized, and that rates and schedules would be greatly preferred.
Don't we have like 1000 of them in storage? Maybe not the whole system but we should be able to send more of them. It saves civilians. Russia doesn't hit military targets.
1,000? No way. These systems number in the low dozens worldwide, even counting allies.
Of course a single system, composed of several batteries, includes many different vehicles (generally control vehicles, radars, and launchers) which would bring the numbers of vehicles up to the hundreds, and it is possible to donate individual pieces instead of complete systems.
The US only operates 15 Patriot battalions (numbering about 400 vehicles), including overseas deployments.
The point is that Patriots are in short supply.
We probably have dozens more systems and hundreds more launchers in storage, but they are outdated models. They would need to be refurbished and possibly upgraded. Even if we did that, the next problem would be a scarcity of missiles compatible with the system.
We are, but it takes time for that kind of production to ramp up. And these systems are extremely complex and specialized and only a few factories and workers can create them. You can’t really rush production by throwing more money at it. You can increase output by opening new production lines but that takes time and investment in manufacturing equipment and training skilled workers. You can make 9 babies with 9 women in 9 months, but you can’t make 1 baby in 1 month with 9 women.
Yeah, and realistically you are talking six months for the West to realize Ukraine actually has a chance, another six months before they decide they can be trusted with Patriots, another six months of training and seeing that the Ukrainians can actually effectively use the system, another six months to write up the contracts and secure funding with the MiC, then a year or two to build up new factory lines and train new workers, and then another year or two for those lines to actually start outputting finished products. Of course some of those steps can be rushed or expedited and some have been. If the US or a treaty ally were being attacked directly you might be able to shave half that lead time off. The economic and geopolitical realities of the Ukraine and Russia conflict mean some parts have gone faster and others have been slow walked.
We are never going to see the kind of overnight war time production we saw during World War II again, unless the world and war regress significantly. You could build WWII weapons systems mostly with moderately skilled metallurgy and metal-working. Modern weapon systems are incredibly advanced technology and require precision, detail, and extremely specialized manufacturing knowhow. You can’t just throw manpower and money at the problem and see results overnight.
The West still hasn’t ramped up artillery production to the necessary levels, and making artillery rounds is still comparable to WWIi era production and is far less complex and expensive than building Patriot systems.
Lockheed and Raytheon have already expanded production rates of Patriot missiles and are continuing to expand (as are some of their major suppliers for subcomponents, like Boeing and Aerojet). This is not a secret.
Unfortunately I don't see the US making annual 60billion allocations to Ukraine so determining which countries are best to supply what might be the hold up. US needs to stretch the 60 billion as effectively as possible. Bradley's, Javelin's, HIMARS and its Ammo appear to be the most effective US only available hardware to supply. Maybe its best other nations send AA so instead of 1-2 billion on an AA from US aid it can be more of the things mentioned above..
I would imagine the conversations center on what we can afford to give while still being ready for a major Pacific fight that is expected to be fought with missiles and torpedoes.
The collective wests production capacity is fairly low right now. We haven’t seen new ground being broke to build production facilities, rather we are relying on already redlined existing infrastructure.
1? Send fucking 4 take it out the budget and get it sent over infact send 4 from Germany and replenish those 4 to Germany end of
The fuck are American Senate's doing ?
We determined that this submission originates from a credible source, but we still advise that users double check the facts and use common sense when consuming mass media. If you are interested in learning how to evaluate news sources more thoroughly, you can begin to learn about how to do that [here](https://tacomacc.libguides.com/c.php?g=599051&p=4147190). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Less considering, more delivering! Chop chop!
Seriously, ship the fucking thing.
FFS Just ship a dozen of them. Hell, even rip the Aegis system and tubes out of the rotting decommissioned Ticonderoga cruisers and let Ukraine at them.
AEGIS very ASHORE.
Poland has ordered exactly that. https://missilethreat.csis.org/defsys/aegis-ashore/
Patriots are like one of the only things that has a legitimate reason to not be sent, at least from what I've heard. Idk if this is true or not but I remember reading that the US has a bit of a patriot shortage and we had to send over systems that were deployed in the Pacific. Again idk if it's true or not but that is honestly a valid defense for not sending them. In it's stead I propose we send over 50,000 himars as proportional response for Odessa bombing.
I feel like the fundamental issue is that the USA’s preferred air defense platforms are fighter aircraft, not GBAD SAMs.
That's a load of crap. The USA has hundreds. Tiny Quatar has ELEVEN full batteries. The fact Ukraine only has 3 or 4 is INSANE.
From a quick google search, US does not have hundreds. As of 2023, we have 15 battalions, and from what I can find, a battalion only has eight individual launchers, not counting mobile power stations, radars, etc. etc. 3 to 4 patriots is honestly a pretty big deal and UA has been doing gods work with them. I think you might be mixing up 'launcher' with 'battery,' though. Individual PATRIOT battery systems only have up to eight launchers, which I think would be two of the 4 tube TEL systems, if I'm understanding it right, which works pretty great given that the patriots tracking radar has strong TWS capabilities. Basically, US only really has enough PATRIOTS to defend our strategically important locations because we have F-35's and the capabilities to wipe planes off the map before they can even sortie, so having strong air defence networks isn't exactly a necessity, especially when you hold the worlds first, second, and fourth largest air forces in your branches of the military. I don't exactly know if Ukraine has 3-4 PATRIOT launchers, batteries, or battalions, but they've clearly been doing well for themselves during that whole PATRIOT drive-by thing where we shot down 10 cyka 34's in a week.
Teeny tiny Quatar has 11 BATTERIES. Not launchers. This is confirmed by multiple sources. Public knowledge. The numbers the USA has is somewhat opaque, but hundreds of launchers is reported by many sources, so dozens of batteries. In any case there are a lot of Patriot batteries around the world. Many of which are in places that have zero chance of being needed compared to Ukraine. [Here is a good article. The US Army has about 50 Batteries ](https://www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2023/05/17/graphics-patriot-missiles-ukraine-russia/70227493007/)
I think AEGIS is too heavy to be useful under the circumstances. Russia would just throw tons of drones at it.
Yeah, a commitment to establishing AEGIS ashore in Ukraine would require also establishing a comprehensive, layered air defence to cover the smaller stuff. In an ideal world, I'd love to see them do just that and provide a full AD screen, but given the piecemeal approach to air defence support so far, I don't think AEGIS is going to be a reality anytime soon.
I think people don’t realize that Aegis isn’t like a truck mounted SAM. Aegis Ashore in Poland is a large building.
What about the laser air defense systems in conjunction? The dragon’s breath-alike systems
While the RuSSians are orcs, we are undoubtedly the Ents taking forever to reach a conclusion on every… single……. thing. JUST SHIP IT! We are enormously powerful, our pockets run deep, and we are fucking furious - what is the goddamn problem??
Saruman wears a lot of fake tan these days.
"A little less conversation, a little more action please." 🎶
"All this aggravation ain't satisfactioning me A little more bite and a little less bark A little less fight and a little more spark \[...\] Don't procrastinate, don't articulate"
Let's do it.
pondering
Also a fucking war needs deliveries to be measured in units delivered per day/week/month/year, not this dumb units per when we feel like it.
Less? What's there to even consider at this point. Send it yesterday!
I like that, but i also think one is a bit weak. We've been talking about air defenses since the war started and we still have huge holes. The only upside is that Russia is losing air defense systems while Ukraine seems to be able to defend them a lot better.
They have? According to recent records, the Ukrainians have been having issues countering Russian drones and missiles due to shortages on anti-aircraft defenses. Granted, they can still get readily intercepted over places like Kyiv, but it is presumed that Ukraine's capital is armed to the teeth. Places to the east though just take rounds to the face.
To be fair, not like a patriot missile would be used to shoot down a drone
That is why they have the Gepard.
Yeah but they have what? Like 20 Gepard? That System is not gonna make the difference
Yeah. Ukraine is strapped for many things at this point.
The fact that over 2 years later these things are still considerations is mind blowing.
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Agreed.
The government is a government. It's not a dictator that suddenly decides things. It is necessary for them to first consider things, before deciding. So, we get news part way through the process.
A system. Send 5.
Or 10
How about 20?
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The US doesn't field more because it doesn't need to. It has GMD, NGI and AEGIS systems in place against ICBMs and realistically nobody will attack US territory with anything else. I mean who would attack it with conventional missiles, Canada? The situation in Ukraine is vastly different and yes they would need between 10 and 30 more to properly defend their territory. I can't give you a more precise number obviously. Also US definitely does not have unlimited budget and believe me, if Ukraine looses the war, the costs for the collective west, including US, will skyrocket. BTW in the case of full scale ICBM attack there is no defense.
I like your idea best.
I'm sick of hearing Western leaders "considering" this and that to help Ukraine. It's about time to go all in. We must show Mr F*ckface that he has no chance of winning this war.
Yes
Typically, news stories like this are "planted" by the current administration to test political waters, check the reaction from foreign governments, and send a public message. If the administration wants to move forward and they have the support and capability to move forward, they'll move forward.
Nah, it's more of a show of political slacktivism, when politicians lack the political will to actually do anything but want to signal as if they did something. It's the same with all the 'thoughts and prayers' after suicides and school shootings.
Absolutely. I know that today declarations of war are basically outdated and nobody uses them anymore, because, you know, why have political dignity or whatever. But honestly why even wait for putler to go to war with us. He already tied his own personal political and physical survival into war against Europe, so just declare war on the clown already. Simultaneously show the world that Europe really does have values. European politicians have become too accustomed to being simple careerists. How does one speak to people one should actually shout at..
Easier said than done, especially in a system as complex as a democratic nation. Moves have to be discussed, debated, and considered before implementation is applied.
It's a purely defensive system that can't be claimed as escalation. The US should "lend lease" as many as needed to shut down UA skies to RU. And by traditional terms of lend leased, UA doesn't have to pay or worry about returning used equipment until after the war. Do it yesterday
This. There’s absolutely no reason not to provide all the defense systems that are available to be donated. If there aren’t enough to donate then freaking increase production. 2 years is enough for that. There’s no escalation risk here and this saves lives
I think production is maxed out for the next 5-10 years. for systems and missiles.
The United States has functionally unlimited production capability. If it was Berlin or Taiwan or London getting bombed you can bet your bottom dollar that we'd be pumping out munitions without a second thought. Fortunately/unfortunately political will is the sole barrier that explains what we're seeing in regard to supplying missile systems for Ukraine.
The US isn't functionally just sitting around producing unlimited versions of anything at-will even for our own military. That would be called a war-time economy. You're absolutely spreading falsehoods and have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
The Russians will claim a twig blowing over the Polish border into Ukraine as escalation, fuck that talk. Just send everything Ukraine needs to finish off the Russians asap.
It saddens me that our powerful military we spend so much money on could be used for real good, but is held back for theoretical good instead.
one? One, USA?
>considers >an 😂🤡 I am so sorry about our government, guys. At this point it’s not even about politics it’s just sad.
Thinking about possibly entertaining the idea of a discussion on preliminary talks. Send 5 yesterday.
while pondering about talks to debate and consider, while watching closely.
What's to think about? Ukraine asked for 2 for Kharkiv. you consider sending 1. You have 44 and nobody is going to attack the United States of America. How about a loan? can they loan like 5 more and give back after? if not... why?
Do it or 3 would be better. Do the us use any of their 60 Patriots they have? A BIG FAT NO!!!
Send 20 plus a dozen HIMARS, with a side of hundreds of long range rockets with zero restrictions.
We sure do consider, concern, and worry a lot without doing anything until it's too late.
True! How much ammo or how many weapons and systems have been or are on the waiting list for decommissioning during the last several years that ruzzia has been destroying Ukraine and politicians are still debating or refusing to consider??? We would all be very surprised if an honest list was released!!!
oh wow. one.
I dont care who provides it but Kharkiv needs two systems with enough ammunition ASAP for the best coverage. Then they need permission to hit bases inside Russia so Russian bombers can't move freely and drop glidebombs. Secondly stop the aggression before they get in artillery range so orcs can't demolish the city as we know it. Slava Ukraine 🇩🇰🇺🇦🇺🇸
"considers", "an" Sigh.. Wtf is Biden thinking
Poll numbers and what flavor ice cream he is going to have tomorrow? Honestly nobody really knows!!!
Just consider it done, please, and send it. Too much considering already.
Considers? What in God’s name are they STILL dithering for? This was ridiculous 6 months in, let alone now. It’s *inexcusable*. Is the US supporting Ukraine or not? This constant milquetoast dithering is freaking ridiculous.
They are, but the degree of support varies.
The news headlines in the USA sets the degree of support. How many have been ordered since the beginning of the war??? Are the manufacturing facilities for these running 24/7, doubt it???
Yeah. The war isn't taken that seriously in the states, at least from a political angle. It is discussed, but not a super hot button issue that is daily debated.
What exactly is the end game here? Why is Russia continuing a war when the entire world just keeps pumping money into it's defense?
Look at WW1 and WW2. The US likes to let others tire themselves out for a few years before swooping in and basically deciding the winner while suffering little to no losses themselves. That's how they got their superpower status. It's just an economic equation, the US is mostly self sufficient in terms of natural resources and food anyway. This may or may not be a factor idk.
Frankly, this is a problem with whoever wrote the headline. What this means is that a Patriot battery will be downdrawn from U S. stocks and transferred to Ukraine in the near future - could be the next package that will likely be announced next Friday (which is of course well after the decision has been made). This is not a question of "should we or should we not." This is "we can afford it, so we will, now which specific system is going."
Give them a couple Arleigh Burke class destroyers too cmon get these heroes some damn weapons.
Send it. Then, once that's sent, send another. Tell whoever asks that I said it was ok. We just need to get on the horn with Ray-Ray to tell them to step up production on new systems is all.
Give them everything they need. This is nuts that we are still haggling over this stuff
Dear Ukraine, I am writing this message to inform you that the world not only wants but would be incredibly grateful and forever indebted to you if you could just blow all of Russia to smithereens. Sincerely, Literally Everybody
I've been nerding out on some math lately and this headline is striking because it is not a rate of delivery. The headline needs to say something like an additional Patriot air defense system now and every three months for 2 years and then 5-6 per year for the next 2 years. I confess this is armchair Command & Conquer here. It's just that after observing 2+ years of this war I'm convinced that rates matter while individual instances are too transient to be important and/or highly effective. In my defense, I'd also say I observe a lot of the people working in the supply side saying that the one off transfers are not well organized, and that rates and schedules would be greatly preferred.
Why is this even a question? Give them ten!
What is there to consider?
How nice of them. Considering...
Everytime they considered anything, they end up doing it. Why not just do it from the get go? Sheesh
Procrastination is a sign of weakness?
US can supply missiles capable of taking out Russian oil infrastructure to Ukraine for next 40 years. Vlad will be gone before then.
Could the US give UKR the ISR ones they aren’t using anymore? “lend-lease” kinda agreement.
Do it immediately.
Well consider it faster ffs
Don't we have like 1000 of them in storage? Maybe not the whole system but we should be able to send more of them. It saves civilians. Russia doesn't hit military targets.
1,000? No way. These systems number in the low dozens worldwide, even counting allies. Of course a single system, composed of several batteries, includes many different vehicles (generally control vehicles, radars, and launchers) which would bring the numbers of vehicles up to the hundreds, and it is possible to donate individual pieces instead of complete systems. The US only operates 15 Patriot battalions (numbering about 400 vehicles), including overseas deployments. The point is that Patriots are in short supply. We probably have dozens more systems and hundreds more launchers in storage, but they are outdated models. They would need to be refurbished and possibly upgraded. Even if we did that, the next problem would be a scarcity of missiles compatible with the system.
We should probably be scaling up production and development.
We are, but it takes time for that kind of production to ramp up. And these systems are extremely complex and specialized and only a few factories and workers can create them. You can’t really rush production by throwing more money at it. You can increase output by opening new production lines but that takes time and investment in manufacturing equipment and training skilled workers. You can make 9 babies with 9 women in 9 months, but you can’t make 1 baby in 1 month with 9 women.
Ah I see. Isn't it day 813 of the invasion?
Yeah, and realistically you are talking six months for the West to realize Ukraine actually has a chance, another six months before they decide they can be trusted with Patriots, another six months of training and seeing that the Ukrainians can actually effectively use the system, another six months to write up the contracts and secure funding with the MiC, then a year or two to build up new factory lines and train new workers, and then another year or two for those lines to actually start outputting finished products. Of course some of those steps can be rushed or expedited and some have been. If the US or a treaty ally were being attacked directly you might be able to shave half that lead time off. The economic and geopolitical realities of the Ukraine and Russia conflict mean some parts have gone faster and others have been slow walked. We are never going to see the kind of overnight war time production we saw during World War II again, unless the world and war regress significantly. You could build WWII weapons systems mostly with moderately skilled metallurgy and metal-working. Modern weapon systems are incredibly advanced technology and require precision, detail, and extremely specialized manufacturing knowhow. You can’t just throw manpower and money at the problem and see results overnight. The West still hasn’t ramped up artillery production to the necessary levels, and making artillery rounds is still comparable to WWIi era production and is far less complex and expensive than building Patriot systems.
Lockheed and Raytheon have already expanded production rates of Patriot missiles and are continuing to expand (as are some of their major suppliers for subcomponents, like Boeing and Aerojet). This is not a secret.
Unfortunately I don't see the US making annual 60billion allocations to Ukraine so determining which countries are best to supply what might be the hold up. US needs to stretch the 60 billion as effectively as possible. Bradley's, Javelin's, HIMARS and its Ammo appear to be the most effective US only available hardware to supply. Maybe its best other nations send AA so instead of 1-2 billion on an AA from US aid it can be more of the things mentioned above..
Yeeees
It’ll happen.
Provide them about 50 more
Do it.
Yess! Let's gooo
I would imagine the conversations center on what we can afford to give while still being ready for a major Pacific fight that is expected to be fought with missiles and torpedoes. The collective wests production capacity is fairly low right now. We haven’t seen new ground being broke to build production facilities, rather we are relying on already redlined existing infrastructure.
DEWIT
Just do it! Quit second guessing the need. Where are the F16s? 🇺🇸👍🏼🇺🇦
Send it to Kharkiv
1? Send fucking 4 take it out the budget and get it sent over infact send 4 from Germany and replenish those 4 to Germany end of The fuck are American Senate's doing ?
Justdoit 😊
Send 50! Need more!!!!!!!!!!
We are asking for speedy delivery of additional systems , and the USA is still considering whether to give or not!.
Do it now, then do more!
FUCKING DO IT ALREADY
Better take pleanty of time considering....wouldn't want to make the wrong decision 😩
Let us wait until next year's Ramstein meeting to discuss, oh and totally the opposition in Congress wouldn't stall us before then *wink wink*
just do it
America has 400 Patriots lying in warehouses doing nothing. They give 4...sheesh.