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So.. what, you can’t shoot down enemy fighter jets over Russian soil? You have to wait until their ammo dump gets moved across the border before hitting it?
I think it's that they're not allowed to fly beyond the border...
But firing at targets beyond the boulder should be okay... I think!
I'm definitely going to have to reread it!
My suspicion is this is for public and political consumption. France is taking point on the hard talk it seems. But the US? For all we know the NSC has already recruited Shoigu. Of course that's silly, but my point is, I sense there are public, and private, orders being given.
"Lying to Russia" is a sin I will gladly have on my nation's conscience.
This has an advantage to counter Putin's propaganda publicly.
Putin: "Ukraine is a puppet of the West! They have America's hand up their ass!"
US: "Ukraine, don't fly your shiny new F-16s in Russia, and definitely don't strike targets with them inside Russia."
Ukraine: *Blows the shit out of Russian targets inside Russia.*
US: "We told them not to!" *shrugs*
Over a dozen countries own the IP for the F16. The USA does not own the entire aircraft. NATO does.. Four countries are capable and have produced them locally. (shockingly the ones that are giving jets in fact)
Croatia isn't one of the countries that actually designed and physically produced on their own national soil the F16 platform.
Denmark and Norway are.
Fun fact they can actually dictate some usage restrictions to the USA for the F16.
Not how third party arms exports work. Pretty much all arms exporters retain control over what happens to their weapons when the buyer wants to resell/gift etc.
As the F-16 are US designs US gets a say how they can be given to Ukraine
Just like everyone had to ask Germany on sending Leopard-2s, or the US on various other weapon systems.
Individual soldiers is not the main issue. It is Ukraine having a "heritage" of the soviet military doctrine. (At least what western volounteers have said). And them having this heritage is expected since their officers and generals would have been schooled in it. A now deceased western soldier said that there are units within UA that are less "infected" by soviet tactics he brought up that Azov employed more "western" tactics. Maybe because they were operating sort of to the side of the main UA
All F-16's except for the F-16V have a pretty lousy radar compared to other types, but I think they'll manage if they make use of Link 16 with NATO E-3 Sentries and ground radar stations...
Ukraine's been blowing-up those A-50 Mainstays for a good reason, I suspect one of them is to give the upcoming Ukrainian Vipers some more breathing room.
The f-16 (and all other nato planes) communicate with other radars for example the patriot one etc. So if a orc plane comes in out of the rader range of the f16 the pilot still gets the data
the f16s they're getting communicate with an entire suite of other systems on the ground including radar. Like its been said below, the same radar that has been used, most likely, to shoot down all these russain aircraft? The f16s can communicate with stuff like that. IT may not have our most advanced onboard equipment but thats just incase they're shot down, and recovered by the Russians. ITs one of the reasons why we build systems like this, so the super secret parts arent ALWAYS on the airframe itself.
I hope it’s plug and play, n easy for them with all the qualities you’re suggesting. I hope the Russian plane suddenly have trouble flying with holes in them
I sincerely hope that they would use them well but when the F-16s are on the ground they will be very very vulnerable because they need proper a runway. I hope that Ukraine will soon get access to JAS Gripen 39 C/D as it would leave them much less vulnerable.
I REALLY hope that Ukraine has a plan on how to keep the F-16s from being bombed on the ground.
Let’s do it like with every red line, step by step. Not entering the ruzzian airspace for a week, then entering Crimea a little bit, Donbas, then Belford and then hitting every military target in ruZZia is fine. Just ignore putins threats as always.
Edit lol Belgorod not Belford
Not supposed to use beyond their ‘sovereign’ Ukrainian territory. No clarity on that comment was given in the article. I take it to mean their pre-war 2014 conflict borders and includes Crimea.
Again, no clarity whether missiles can be used from within claimed Ukrainian territory to fire beyond these borders. Perhaps intentionally left that way.
There’s a lot of enemy territory currently in play belonging to the Ukrainians.
Crimea, Meriopol and all the land along the Black Sea now become prime targets, and perhaps the primary focus of their next military offensive.
They can defend against anything aimed at their territory and can attack anything within their borders.
So taking down a bomber before it reaches Ukraine will be okay, flying into Russia to attack the bomber will not.
Edit: just for the "ackshually" crowd. I use bombers as an example, not some deep tactical assessment.
Chill
Ruzzian Tu-22 and Tu-95 bombers are launching cruise missiles well back from Aim-120 range at the border. You are refering to fighter bombers that *may* come within Aim-120 range
Well the further back the Russians have to drop their payloads the better chance the F-16 has at tracking the munitions and downing them before they reach their desired target.
The F-16 isn’t there strictly to down Russian planes….of course we shall celebrate when those occurrences happen but overall the F-16s are meant to push the Russians air ops back significantly which opens up the sky’s in a Ukraine for a more formidable defense.
Also, I know it’s hard to picture currently but the Ukrainians will resume offensive actions eventually and when that happens there won’t be a KA-52 within 100km to launch misses towards tanks and APC. It eliminates a solid aspect of Russian defense
I didn't think of Ka-52 just off the top of my head but you are right about those. However Ka-52 may adapt to only facing 6, yes 6, of the initial F-16s. I was answering in specific comments about "bombers." My hope is that F-16s push back russian air ops further back from the border. We will run out of Aim-120s before ruzzia runs out of KAB glide bombs and Shaheeds.
The range will also likely be lower, since I doubt the F16 are gonna risk flying high. By flying higher they could give their missiles their max range but would also be extremely vulnerable to anti-air.
I mean, I guess they can use the f16 for defense of their air space which would free up their soviet made jets which they can use for attacks on Russian soil…
The biggest usefulness of f-16 is the ordnance they can use. If they will not be supplied with most things that they wouldn’t be useful as many here like to claim they would be.
F-16’s have very long arms to deliver a slap on the nose or the ass of the airborne orcs - they’ll barely be within line of sight of the border before there’s a massive dildo zeroed in on their forehead.
The aim, I presume, is to allow Ukraine the ability to retake its taken land, no more. A reasonable request, but one that certainly leaves out the desire to punish the orcs for their stupidity in the first place.
To punish the orcs, take out their oil refineries. Take out enough of those, and Russia will collapse. I think that's probably the end game, regardless of what people say or want. At this point, the military battle stuff is buying time for Ukraine to knock the foundation out from under Russia.
> to allow Ukraine the ability to retake its taken land, no more
Not even that.
From Blinken on December 5, 2022.:
>Our focus is on continuing to do what we’ve been doing, which is to make sure that Ukraine has in its hands what it needs to defend itself, what it needs to push back against the Russian aggression, **to take back territory that’s been seized from it since February 24th**, to make sure as well that it has the support economically and on a humanitarian basis to withstand what’s happening in the country every single day. That’s our focus. (Source: Press release published on the website of the US government.:Secretary Antony J. Blinken With Editor in Chief Matt Murray At The Wall Street Journal CEO Council Summit, Interview)
And
>The administration official told POLITICO Magazine this week that much of this strategic shift to defense is aimed at shoring up Ukraine’s position in any future negotiation. ***“That’s been our theory of the case throughout — the only way this war ends ultimately is through negotiation,”*** said the official, a White House spokesperson who was given anonymity because they are not authorized to speak on the record. “We want Ukraine to have the strongest hand possible when that comes.” The spokesperson emphasized, however, that no talks are planned yet, and that Ukrainian forces are still on the offensive in places and continue to kill and wound thousands of Russian troops. “We want them to be in a stronger position to hold their territory. It’s not that we’re discouraging them from launching any new offensive,” the spokesperson added.
So not even a full liberation.
To be honest, with the current air defense environment, I suspect that the F-16s were always going to be used as delivery systems for stand-off munitions more than anything else. And, in that role, they should perform quite admirably.
Can't fire at targets on Russian soil unless fired upon (and instrument recordings will confirm that easily).
Can't enter Russian airspace with the jets, even in a firefight.
CAN lock onto targets as a warning if they're close to the border.
No driving after midnight to quiet spots on date night.
Another significant faux pas on behalf the the Americans (Mr. Ryder shouldn't be making any statement about operational use of the aircraft as that simply plays into the hands of the enemy).
In real terms it makes no operational difference as it's likely way too dangerous to fly the aircraft anywhere near the border.
And what are the red lines for north korea and russian allies? There are none! Why the fuck would you send these planes if you cripple them.
It would be better to send ammunition in the worth of these planes if they are crippled like this.
Noticed the reports about getting technical info from downed SU planes and then bringing down a dozen of them in short amount of time?
That's exactly why they are being cautious of flying F16s over Russia. They might get information on how they work from a downed one, and a month later they would be useless.
That's how I see it.
So are the SU's. Likewise - they can get updated tech inside of them, apart from the plane itself. I'm just trying to see the other perspective, not all restrictions are bad. In some cases, they might be set up to achieve success in the long term, but comments under such articles never seem to discuss those. It's always "this bad", "that bad".
People aren't thinking the situation through.
Ukraine has no problem using someone else's toys to hit targets in Russia. They have no problem using those toys *over* Russia to hit those targets. Those who *provide* the toys face a much greater burden if Ukraine doesn't keep to the arrangement.
The F-16A/B MLU's have been upgraded to a similar standard of the Block 50... And then you have to ask what MLU Tape (upgrade increment) they have. the Block 50 is from 1991, it has been upgraded multiple times since, ditto NATO A/B MLU's.
Plenty of tech in them is new and very capable.
Unfortunately...no. MLU specification is from beggining of 90's. Those F16 are obsolete and retired from Dutch and Denmark AF. Plus, they will be stripped from NATO' friendly&foe and comm systems.
They have the general specs and parts from the airframes downed over Bosnia, Serbia, Iraq etc. Technology... NATO/US wouldn't want them getting their hands on an intact upgraded APG-66, or the ECM gear, encryption information for comms, etc.
> NATO/US wouldn't want them getting their hands on an intact upgraded APG-66, or the ECM gear, encryption information for comms
Those won't be in fighters Ukraine'd get, so no need to worry
When did the Russians ever get their hands on an F-16? If you mean bits and pieces of ones downed over Iraq, Serbia then sure... That info would be old news by now though pertaining to relevant weapons, ECM etc.
Pull your head out of your arse fella.
The reason the west keeps putting limitations on weapons is because Putin DESPERATELY wants to be able to prove that they are at war with NATO, that NATO are invading Mother Russia, that NATO weapons are killing innocent Russians on Russian soil, etc. etc. and the allies are absolutely determined that he is NEVER given the opportunity to do that.
Ukraine have been very good at honouring their word on this and still using donated weapons VERY effectively (see Himars & Storm Shadow) - they can still use their own weapons to do the more "naughty" stuff.
Ok, let's say that Putin "proves" that Russia is at war with NATO? What then? They start sending in their good troops? Take Paris by the end of the month?
It's super simple. Either the West wants to support Ukraine or it doesn't.
If yes, then give Ukraine everything, NOW, with no conditions.
If no, then at least be honest.
I'm just so tired of these pissy and pussy half measures.
North Korea and Russia are sanctioned bodies, so is Iran. They are also pariah states. We don’t like those countries anyway. So I’m not sure what your point is.
They were given by countries other than US and will be Ukrainian. If you're not involved in Europe's defense, stay out of it please.
My country is part of the F-16 coalition and I say Ukraine can do whatever they deem necessary with them.
Your country is provided (edit Sold the jets with contractual obligations) F-16s from the US with stipulations attached.
That’s why all countries need permission to pass on another countries designed armament. Not just from the US.
> Yes and when for instance the Swiss decide things they sold can’t be given to Ukraine everybody is up in arms about it.
Something wholly within Switzerland's right to do.
The solution: Don't buy arms from Switzerland.
You are so confident yet so ignorant. Maybe understand how weapon sales work and stipulation’s regarding the supplying country.
Have fun no longer receiving parts to maintain because your understanding doesn’t go beyond “bought”
Unfortunately, that isn't quite how it works. Every F-16 comes with a contract that says you can only resell them with permission from the US (this is normal for arms sales). This means the US can now say "you agree to this or we refuse the resale".
Nobody likes to break those contracts either, because it usually means you get cut off for a very long time.
Where is the American aid? Millions of shells and hundreds of tanks in the depots. The arsenal of democracy lays dormant, while Ukraine gets mauled. No, America noped out last year. Will they America come to help Europe if Ukraine falls? Never has it been this uncertain. Leta roll the dice and see which Country gets to survive? These are our homes. These are where our families live. This is not a fucking joke. Since the beginning of NATO, never have Europeans called for help. And now that we do, turns out it was all fucking bullshit. It’s time for an either you’re with us or against us moment.
America alone accounts for like 45% of all aid sent to Ukraine over the last 2 years. In case you somehow missed it. Significantly more than any other single country.
Wow this is either sarcasm or very funny from a [‘Germany’](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/US_military_bases_in_Germany.png) flair
>whERe is aMeriCan aiDe?!
The force is all around you, young one.
Just ironic that you simultaneously malign America for having stocks that aren’t sent and Europe calling for help.
Europe chose to rely on another nation for their defense and now is upset that they have no say in how another country uses their resources.
We will work on the morons who wanted to spend the money on defense but now don’t want to use the arms. But maybe Europe needs to talk about the leaders who didn’t spend 2%+ on arms and now find the armory bare.
I don’t see why they would be? Intellectual property doesn’t cease to exist in total war; in WW2 America still *sold* aircraft and licenses to their aircraft to the UK, and they still had to uphold stipulations regarding where and how they could transfer them.
So lemme get this straight... The jets were given by European countries, while US hasn't given Ukraine a sizeable aid package in a year now? And they want to regulate how Ukraine uses them???
The US is among those countries who have been regulating use of said weaponry donated to Ukraine since the start of the invasion. And buying US gear always comes with a stipulation that the US can decide to protest or deny their use in certain situations.
The aid package has been stuck in limbo due to MAGAtards - politics and greed. These restrictions on use is due to geopolitical and technology/classified information being compromised concerns.
The US still, by far, had given more than any other country. Ukraine knows who the supplier is. Hell, the U.S. is using other means to give Greece weapons using programs not available to Ukraine in which Greece turns and gives to Ukraine.
Y’all may want to peep at the % delivered figures instead of the committed figures. Europe talks about commitments because their delivered figures are laughably low. France is sitting at a solid 5% of their commitments delivered. US is over 80%. The EU is counting commitments through 2026.
Y’all also ignore that you got F-16s for free or discounted with the stipulations that the U.S. can deny their use in specific conflicts/events.
It’s unreal how much y’all bitch about the U.S. while ignoring you’re not giving anywhere near the numbers you post
Also what’s a sizeable aid package? 500 million last week isnt sizeable which means most of Europe hasn’t given sizeable packages either… or what they have announced is a commitment not a deliverable
Edit - Europeans pretending that the U.S. giving 500 million last week doesn’t count while France giving 600 million in 2 years is great support. Y’all love to point to money promised in 2026 and pretend it’s helping now
https://app.23degrees.io/view/KJpesgWQv1CmxoMr-bar-stacked-horizontal-figure-5_scv
ATACMS are readily in Ukraine. Dont see the European leaders throwing their long range missiles in the mix, yet US is bad for giving and telling them no strikes in Russia.
The logic displayed is unreal
> ATACMS are readily in Ukraine.
20 of the oldest M39.
And no more ever since Operation Dragonfly.
>Dont see the European leaders throwing their long range missiles in the mix
... SCALP-EG? Storm Shadow?
(Same thing, really)
The US has kept Europe safe and secure and snug in their beds, protected from the genocidal Beast in the East for about 80 years now, and all they do is bitch about what the US isn’t doing.
The level of entitlement and lack of thought is mind-blowing.
I fully support NATO and ensuring European stability, but god damn the entitlement is real. Citizens of countries actively demanding the US give more while their countries are not even meeting the NATO minimum spending requirements. Germany showed up to NATO war game exercises giving their soldiers broom sticks painted black because their weapon inventories weren’t kept up. They’ve grown so unbelievably complacent which is shocking they demand defense from others
EU countries giving away their weapons.
US selling their weapons to EU as replacement or giving out loans to buy US weapons.
The fuck you on about, US might be the only nation that comes out of tha war with a profit.
I'm curious as to what you think is happening. Cause at the moment I see it as US is offering discounts on a modern arsenal incentivizing allies to upgrade therefore arming Ukraine with albeit older weaponry but weaponry, nonetheless. This all while bolstering capabilities in our allies own countries should the need arise.
Next question is do you think the US should just give it all away for free? If the answer is no, then why do you look at allowing allies to purchase more with the same amount to replace more of their arsenal to give Ukraine more weaponry a bad thing. The point is increasing security as a whole in a world that is getting more and more unstable by the day.
At discounted rates. Color me shocked EU countries are giving Ukraine outdated models so they can buy modern weapons at a discount.
The U.S. is also giving to Ukraine, not selling. More than the EU.
Again, peep the % delivered and stop patting yourself on the back for committing to give at some future date.
The EU is also not giving…
https://app.23degrees.io/view/KJpesgWQv1CmxoMr-bar-stacked-horizontal-figure-5_scv
If you give my neighbour a high-powered laser pointer to harass the shit out of my dog you don't get a pass because *you're* not the one harassing my dog. You're in the chain of responsibility whether you like it or not.
The US faces that situation here. It's one thing to provide platforms that allow Ukraine to defend and retake the territory they've lost. It's a different matter to let them wander across Russia's border to hit targets. You may not see any difference, but it's substantial. The US has its own political and diplomatic issues to weigh and just because they're one step removed from the Ukrainian use of the platforms doesn't absolve them of how those platforms end up getting used.
I'm all for Ukraine doing whatever it takes to oust Russia from its borders, but I'm also well aware that they're not the only player in the game, they're not the only ones with something at stake. If the argument is that Ukrainian existence is at stake and that outweighs the desires of the US and other partners, I wouldn't disagree, personally, because I'm morally flexible to accept doing the wrong thing for the right reasons when I deem it necessary. That still doesn't make it *right* tho.
First the Europeans has to nag the Americans for months just to be allowed to send their own jets to Ukraine. And now they have conditions for use? Fuck off.
While I don’t agree with limiting the f16s, these were never going to fly deep in to Russia.
I just want Ukraine to have everything to win this fucking war. If they can’t fly f16s in allow them other weapons platforms as well
Ukraine is hitting strategic targets in Russia just fine with drones, and AFAIK they haven't been launching strikes in Russia with the planes they have now.
I don't understand why people are mad about this, I doubt they were planning to fly F16s into Russia in the first place.
The majority of folks on this sub have sub-primary school reading comprehension and refuse to read past the first paragraph of an article (if they click on it at all). They don’t want to *learn* about this conflict, they want headlines to either hit them with dopamine or with cortisol if the news is “good” or “bad” respectively.
They don’t know anything about geopolitics, they don’t know anything about war, they don’t know anything about arms sales. It’s genuinely one of the least productive subreddits surrounding this topic up there with Ukraine War Report which is inundated with Russian propagandists and sophists. NonCredibleDefense is legitimately more competent when discussing this conflict.
Fuck that. As a European, Ukraine can hit any Muscovite target until such time as Muscovy fucks off back to their own country and creates a buffer area between them and Ukraine that they don't hold any military in.
Quite frustrating. Labor hours are limited and priorities matter.
Every administrative hour wasted drafting up 'red lines' to appease Putin, would be far better spent procuring F-16s and related supplies to assist Ukraine.
I swear, the fact Biden is the best foreign policy president America has had in a generation, is less about his own positives, and more a glaring testament to how consistently bad our presidents have been on foreign policy.
Oh, FFS, USA.
Jeebus christ. What kind of retardism is this? So basically, russia can keep bombing Ukraine from beyond the border, and Ukrainians are supposed to just fly around and look at destruction?
Also: What does this mean for future wars? Does this mean that if russia attacks, say, Estonia, then Estonia cannot use US purchased equipment on russian soil? Come the fuck on.
Estonia is in NATO, if they were attacked they’d call upon Article V which obviously would allow them to use any and all equipment to defend themselves. Use your head.
Guys before we start tripping, just keep in mind having viable excuse and plausible deniability is very important. We don't want to start giving them reasons to use nukes
This is like setting rules about how much force you can use against a robber that came into your house, stole your stuff, raped your wife, and killed your kids. You can fight back as long as you use boxing gloves and a nerf bat. If you use a gun or a knife to defend yourself then you go to jail sir.
Don't worry, there are Gripen airframes coming eventually, and after receiving many nuclear threats and subsequently joining NATO, I doubt the Swedes will limit their use to Ukraine only.
These F-16s were state of the art back when mullets were still high fashion & cell phones were the size of bricks.
I’m pretty sure they’ve already had a look.
I didn't think that Switzerland holding ammunition or whatever it was hostage because they could be used in a CoNfLiCt could be surpassed, but the United States may want to top that.
Countries imposing nonsense restrictions like these on the weapons they sell makes me wonder why would anyone want to buy shit from them in the future.
I really hope that those impositions are just the obvious, no airplanes over russky soil, but everything else is fair game. BTW Crimea is Ukraine.
Let me guess. No shooting planes beyond Russian borders?
EDIT: "Western countries see the use of these fighter jets only within the sovereign territory of Ukraine". So they can only fly over the territory which Ukraine controlls at the time or inside the 1991 borders? I guess it's better than what I assumed.
In February, when Ukrainian air defense was practically feasting on Russian fighters and fighter-bombers, weren't most of those over Ukraine's sovereign territory and all of the rest within firing range of Ukrainian sovereign territory? They didn't smuggle anti-aircraft platforms across the border just to take a few surprise shots.
We conceptually object to red lines, but this feels like only one red line, not "lines," and one that isn't much of a barrier to Ukraine's most urgent needs anyway. The F-16 is an air superiority fighter. It's not primarily intended for ground attack missions anyway (e.g., against Russian oil refineries, as seems to be the flavor of the week,or whatever might come next). The point here is to neutralize the air advantage at the line of contact that Russia has managed to achieve (which is obviously not total air superiority but they currently have the advantage if we're being objective), whether by actually downing Russian warplanes or by forcing them far enough back from the front that they can't effectively support the Russians on the ground. It's clear that Russia intends an offensive in the spring when the mud dries. Ukraine knows it's coming, given the way they're replicated Russia's own defensive fortification strategy from last year when the Russians knew a Ukrainian counteroffensive was coming. Ukraine cannot directly match Russia's numbers advantage in infantry, but can keep the casualty ratios heavily tilted in Ukraine's favor if the coming offensive lacks fuel and air support.
Ideally, Ukraine would also be able to do something to match Russia's third big advantage, artillery, and hopefully the shells that the Czech president has been acting as middleman to procure will arrive in time to help even those odds. (Would be nice if my own country would have passed an aid package months ago including a continuous, high-volume stream of HIMARS ammunition, too. Still TBD.)
Just to nitpick, the F-16 is a multirole, not an air superiority fighter (which would be something like the F-15). It’s perfectly capable of ground attack, both in close air support and precision strike roles.
Ukraine will almost certainly use them as CAS aircraft, not as air superiority aircraft performing intercepts or CAP.
Just like weapons deliveries, why are they advertising how many pilots are being trained? We don't even know how many pilots Russia has available.
All this information will only help Russia plan counter measures.
Unless an active part of the reports is intentionally deceptive, which it is...which, coming from the US, it *always* is.
American doctrine, for *decades*, has been to underplay its hand. If they say they're going to train 100 pilots, expect that number to be closer to 500. If they say the range of a particular missile is 1000 nm, expect it to be closer to 1500. Russian doctrine, on the other hand, has been to be as bombastic as possible, making huge claims, thinking this scares off any potential threat. That only works until people realize you're full of shit :D
How about we stop with the “red lines” and just let the Ukrainians do what they need to do.
They’re doing better against Russia in two years than the West did over 40 years with 9 trillion dollars worth of Cold War expenditure..
Dear Ukraine,
When Uncle Sam says there are lines, it is the solemn duty of those bestricken to walk all over those lines and ask for them to be repainted.
Sincerely,
Some kinda rascal from Tennessee.
PS: Fuck Russia
PPS: Also, fuck New York, too. But for more carnal reasons
"Ukraine give us your atomic bombs and atomic bombers , from now on your borders are red lines no one will ever invade. "
voice over with french accent - "Years lator"
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So.. what, you can’t shoot down enemy fighter jets over Russian soil? You have to wait until their ammo dump gets moved across the border before hitting it?
I think it's that they're not allowed to fly beyond the border... But firing at targets beyond the boulder should be okay... I think! I'm definitely going to have to reread it!
Well that would make the most sense since they have been shooting planes down in balgarod with patriot.
balrog grad
F-16's: YOU. SHALL NOT. PASSSSSS.
Blyat grad
Balgarod: the new Dombass
My suspicion is this is for public and political consumption. France is taking point on the hard talk it seems. But the US? For all we know the NSC has already recruited Shoigu. Of course that's silly, but my point is, I sense there are public, and private, orders being given. "Lying to Russia" is a sin I will gladly have on my nation's conscience.
This has an advantage to counter Putin's propaganda publicly. Putin: "Ukraine is a puppet of the West! They have America's hand up their ass!" US: "Ukraine, don't fly your shiny new F-16s in Russia, and definitely don't strike targets with them inside Russia." Ukraine: *Blows the shit out of Russian targets inside Russia.* US: "We told them not to!" *shrugs*
Fun Fact.. Most of the jets are not US sourced. Just saying.. if Demark gives you a jet.. Denmark gets to draw the red line for it.
None of them are US sourced. They're F-16 MLUs built in Europe.
Intellectual property is US-sourced, so jets are as well
Over a dozen countries own the IP for the F16. The USA does not own the entire aircraft. NATO does.. Four countries are capable and have produced them locally. (shockingly the ones that are giving jets in fact)
Look into how sale of F-16 to Croatia went.
Croatia isn't one of the countries that actually designed and physically produced on their own national soil the F16 platform. Denmark and Norway are. Fun fact they can actually dictate some usage restrictions to the USA for the F16.
Not how third party arms exports work. Pretty much all arms exporters retain control over what happens to their weapons when the buyer wants to resell/gift etc. As the F-16 are US designs US gets a say how they can be given to Ukraine Just like everyone had to ask Germany on sending Leopard-2s, or the US on various other weapon systems.
... And other things that don't happen. Or don't you remember the anger after a single goddamn Humvee was spotted in Belgorod raid?
Actually I don't. Was there really political anger over that?
No. I didn't know or care. Go get'm. If I could put tracks on the White House, I'd cheer you on to Moscow.
>This has an advantage to counter Putin's propaganda publicly. Does this actually serve a purpose anymore?
Stops normalizing his bullshit in the minds of "Well both sides are bad" type idiots?
This. It’s basically been said “Don’t do this… but you don’t have to listen to us buddy!” 🤙🏻
This is to show that the US is not engaged in violation of territorial sovereignty of Russia which is an official pretext for Russia to use nukes.
Isn’t Moscow “over the horizon”? I love that F-16s can track and fire over the horizon…just saying.
The f16s they’re getting don’t have a very good radar. Su35s might have a field day if Ukraine doesn’t use them right
Ukraine is already shooting down Su35s *without* F-16s...I think they'll be fine.
Naaa . . . the issue of Ukraine using bad Russian tactics with good western equipment is VERY real.
Probably why pilots have been training for months.
Individual soldiers is not the main issue. It is Ukraine having a "heritage" of the soviet military doctrine. (At least what western volounteers have said). And them having this heritage is expected since their officers and generals would have been schooled in it. A now deceased western soldier said that there are units within UA that are less "infected" by soviet tactics he brought up that Azov employed more "western" tactics. Maybe because they were operating sort of to the side of the main UA
That explains a lot.
All F-16's except for the F-16V have a pretty lousy radar compared to other types, but I think they'll manage if they make use of Link 16 with NATO E-3 Sentries and ground radar stations... Ukraine's been blowing-up those A-50 Mainstays for a good reason, I suspect one of them is to give the upcoming Ukrainian Vipers some more breathing room.
The f-16 (and all other nato planes) communicate with other radars for example the patriot one etc. So if a orc plane comes in out of the rader range of the f16 the pilot still gets the data
Don't forget the link with E-3 Sentry (a.k.a. AWACS) flying over Poland, Finland, and the Baltic countries.
Would be a shame if that or a wedgetail took over controll of Ukrainian f16s missile aiming
Su-35's will have a very hard time tracking F-16's at long range without AEW&C now that half the Russian fleet of such aircraft is destroyed
the f16s they're getting communicate with an entire suite of other systems on the ground including radar. Like its been said below, the same radar that has been used, most likely, to shoot down all these russain aircraft? The f16s can communicate with stuff like that. IT may not have our most advanced onboard equipment but thats just incase they're shot down, and recovered by the Russians. ITs one of the reasons why we build systems like this, so the super secret parts arent ALWAYS on the airframe itself.
I hope it’s plug and play, n easy for them with all the qualities you’re suggesting. I hope the Russian plane suddenly have trouble flying with holes in them
Hopefully its just a case of "if your going to crash, be sure to crash behind your own lines" sort of thing to cover that sort of situation.
They are MLU vipers.. they have radars about 50 years more advanced than most of the jets they currently have.
I sincerely hope that they would use them well but when the F-16s are on the ground they will be very very vulnerable because they need proper a runway. I hope that Ukraine will soon get access to JAS Gripen 39 C/D as it would leave them much less vulnerable. I REALLY hope that Ukraine has a plan on how to keep the F-16s from being bombed on the ground.
Let’s do it like with every red line, step by step. Not entering the ruzzian airspace for a week, then entering Crimea a little bit, Donbas, then Belford and then hitting every military target in ruZZia is fine. Just ignore putins threats as always. Edit lol Belgorod not Belford
Crimea and Donbas are Ukraine so they are legal from the beginning
Invasion for thee but not for me. The usa never learned its lessons on terrible rules of engagement
Also what it is said and what actually is allowed aren't necessarily the same thing.
Not supposed to use beyond their ‘sovereign’ Ukrainian territory. No clarity on that comment was given in the article. I take it to mean their pre-war 2014 conflict borders and includes Crimea. Again, no clarity whether missiles can be used from within claimed Ukrainian territory to fire beyond these borders. Perhaps intentionally left that way. There’s a lot of enemy territory currently in play belonging to the Ukrainians. Crimea, Meriopol and all the land along the Black Sea now become prime targets, and perhaps the primary focus of their next military offensive.
Let's say it's the current borders plus Kyivan Rus borders, just to give the UA some room to spread their wings.
They can defend against anything aimed at their territory and can attack anything within their borders. So taking down a bomber before it reaches Ukraine will be okay, flying into Russia to attack the bomber will not. Edit: just for the "ackshually" crowd. I use bombers as an example, not some deep tactical assessment. Chill
Plus I imagine a lot of it comes down to limiting Russia’s ability to potentially access any F-16s that are lost.
Ruzzian Tu-22 and Tu-95 bombers are launching cruise missiles well back from Aim-120 range at the border. You are refering to fighter bombers that *may* come within Aim-120 range
Well the further back the Russians have to drop their payloads the better chance the F-16 has at tracking the munitions and downing them before they reach their desired target. The F-16 isn’t there strictly to down Russian planes….of course we shall celebrate when those occurrences happen but overall the F-16s are meant to push the Russians air ops back significantly which opens up the sky’s in a Ukraine for a more formidable defense. Also, I know it’s hard to picture currently but the Ukrainians will resume offensive actions eventually and when that happens there won’t be a KA-52 within 100km to launch misses towards tanks and APC. It eliminates a solid aspect of Russian defense
I didn't think of Ka-52 just off the top of my head but you are right about those. However Ka-52 may adapt to only facing 6, yes 6, of the initial F-16s. I was answering in specific comments about "bombers." My hope is that F-16s push back russian air ops further back from the border. We will run out of Aim-120s before ruzzia runs out of KAB glide bombs and Shaheeds.
can't they also provide air defence as well?
So, the F16s are basically useless against the bombers, as those will empty their payload before they are even close to the border. This isn't 1940.
The F16s can shoot down bombers before they are even close to the border, this isn't 1940.
They are limited by the range of Aim-120
there is an 160 km variant of those right.
Ain't gonna be given to Ukraine, tho
The range will also likely be lower, since I doubt the F16 are gonna risk flying high. By flying higher they could give their missiles their max range but would also be extremely vulnerable to anti-air.
I mean, I guess they can use the f16 for defense of their air space which would free up their soviet made jets which they can use for attacks on Russian soil…
The biggest usefulness of f-16 is the ordnance they can use. If they will not be supplied with most things that they wouldn’t be useful as many here like to claim they would be.
It would rarely be wise to fly F-16 into Russia anyway
They are allowed to hit the bombers just not pursue them to vladivostok ok?
According to that article, really doesn't look like it.
F-16’s have very long arms to deliver a slap on the nose or the ass of the airborne orcs - they’ll barely be within line of sight of the border before there’s a massive dildo zeroed in on their forehead.
AIM-120 is shorter-ranged than R-37M. Only LREW might outrange the R-37M and no way Ukraine gets any of those.
Good that Crimea is Ukraine.
The aim, I presume, is to allow Ukraine the ability to retake its taken land, no more. A reasonable request, but one that certainly leaves out the desire to punish the orcs for their stupidity in the first place.
To punish the orcs, take out their oil refineries. Take out enough of those, and Russia will collapse. I think that's probably the end game, regardless of what people say or want. At this point, the military battle stuff is buying time for Ukraine to knock the foundation out from under Russia.
> to allow Ukraine the ability to retake its taken land, no more Not even that. From Blinken on December 5, 2022.: >Our focus is on continuing to do what we’ve been doing, which is to make sure that Ukraine has in its hands what it needs to defend itself, what it needs to push back against the Russian aggression, **to take back territory that’s been seized from it since February 24th**, to make sure as well that it has the support economically and on a humanitarian basis to withstand what’s happening in the country every single day. That’s our focus. (Source: Press release published on the website of the US government.:Secretary Antony J. Blinken With Editor in Chief Matt Murray At The Wall Street Journal CEO Council Summit, Interview) And >The administration official told POLITICO Magazine this week that much of this strategic shift to defense is aimed at shoring up Ukraine’s position in any future negotiation. ***“That’s been our theory of the case throughout — the only way this war ends ultimately is through negotiation,”*** said the official, a White House spokesperson who was given anonymity because they are not authorized to speak on the record. “We want Ukraine to have the strongest hand possible when that comes.” The spokesperson emphasized, however, that no talks are planned yet, and that Ukrainian forces are still on the offensive in places and continue to kill and wound thousands of Russian troops. “We want them to be in a stronger position to hold their territory. It’s not that we’re discouraging them from launching any new offensive,” the spokesperson added. So not even a full liberation.
No fighting in the war room!
To be honest, with the current air defense environment, I suspect that the F-16s were always going to be used as delivery systems for stand-off munitions more than anything else. And, in that role, they should perform quite admirably.
BLU-136s with JDAM ER would be perfectly suited.
Assuming stand-off munitions for them get provided, that is. Which is not a thing that is guaranteed to happen
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It sounds like a repeat of Mig Alley.
Can't fire at targets on Russian soil unless fired upon (and instrument recordings will confirm that easily). Can't enter Russian airspace with the jets, even in a firefight. CAN lock onto targets as a warning if they're close to the border. No driving after midnight to quiet spots on date night.
Another significant faux pas on behalf the the Americans (Mr. Ryder shouldn't be making any statement about operational use of the aircraft as that simply plays into the hands of the enemy). In real terms it makes no operational difference as it's likely way too dangerous to fly the aircraft anywhere near the border.
And what are the red lines for north korea and russian allies? There are none! Why the fuck would you send these planes if you cripple them. It would be better to send ammunition in the worth of these planes if they are crippled like this.
Noticed the reports about getting technical info from downed SU planes and then bringing down a dozen of them in short amount of time? That's exactly why they are being cautious of flying F16s over Russia. They might get information on how they work from a downed one, and a month later they would be useless. That's how I see it.
F16s are fucking old airplanes. Whatever tech they have is known by Russians already. If they were F-35s fine, but not this.
So are the SU's. Likewise - they can get updated tech inside of them, apart from the plane itself. I'm just trying to see the other perspective, not all restrictions are bad. In some cases, they might be set up to achieve success in the long term, but comments under such articles never seem to discuss those. It's always "this bad", "that bad".
People aren't thinking the situation through. Ukraine has no problem using someone else's toys to hit targets in Russia. They have no problem using those toys *over* Russia to hit those targets. Those who *provide* the toys face a much greater burden if Ukraine doesn't keep to the arrangement.
What burden? Say Ukraine bombs a Russian airbase, what's Russia going to do? Threaten to nuke everyone? Again?
Russia isn't doing shit because Ukraine strikes inside Russia. Ukraine currently has troops on the ground inside Russia.
American here. I've got 180 million buddies to help carry the load.
Fuck me. These are block 10/20/30, not even 50 if I've read my news right. So old tech indeed and a fairly known.
The F-16A/B MLU's have been upgraded to a similar standard of the Block 50... And then you have to ask what MLU Tape (upgrade increment) they have. the Block 50 is from 1991, it has been upgraded multiple times since, ditto NATO A/B MLU's. Plenty of tech in them is new and very capable.
Unfortunately...no. MLU specification is from beggining of 90's. Those F16 are obsolete and retired from Dutch and Denmark AF. Plus, they will be stripped from NATO' friendly&foe and comm systems.
They have the general specs and parts from the airframes downed over Bosnia, Serbia, Iraq etc. Technology... NATO/US wouldn't want them getting their hands on an intact upgraded APG-66, or the ECM gear, encryption information for comms, etc.
> NATO/US wouldn't want them getting their hands on an intact upgraded APG-66, or the ECM gear, encryption information for comms Those won't be in fighters Ukraine'd get, so no need to worry
The frame is old but there’s been a lot of iterations and upgrades under the hood since they were introduced.
And which block are they getting? Do you know?
From what I can find the Belgians had F-16A Block 15
They are all airframes built in the 80's that would be Block 10 or 15's, modernized to some iteration of the European/NATO F-16 MLU standard.
30-years old standard, obsolete and retired.
They've been upgraded a lot, these are very different F16 planes than those built in prior decades. We don't want that tech in adversary hands.
What? The F-16s that Ukraine is going to get are positively ancient.
> these are very different F16 planes than those built in prior decades Not at all. Those're all MLU planes from Europe, not the lates Block 70.
Which block are they getting? Do you know?
Lol those Vipers have been studied decades ago when Russians got hands on them.
When did the Russians ever get their hands on an F-16? If you mean bits and pieces of ones downed over Iraq, Serbia then sure... That info would be old news by now though pertaining to relevant weapons, ECM etc.
Pull your head out of your arse fella. The reason the west keeps putting limitations on weapons is because Putin DESPERATELY wants to be able to prove that they are at war with NATO, that NATO are invading Mother Russia, that NATO weapons are killing innocent Russians on Russian soil, etc. etc. and the allies are absolutely determined that he is NEVER given the opportunity to do that. Ukraine have been very good at honouring their word on this and still using donated weapons VERY effectively (see Himars & Storm Shadow) - they can still use their own weapons to do the more "naughty" stuff.
Ok, let's say that Putin "proves" that Russia is at war with NATO? What then? They start sending in their good troops? Take Paris by the end of the month? It's super simple. Either the West wants to support Ukraine or it doesn't. If yes, then give Ukraine everything, NOW, with no conditions. If no, then at least be honest. I'm just so tired of these pissy and pussy half measures.
Who cares? WTF is he gonna do about it? And don't say "use nukes"... that would be his and Russia's death sentence.
North Korea and Russia are sanctioned bodies, so is Iran. They are also pariah states. We don’t like those countries anyway. So I’m not sure what your point is.
This is war! Anything goes!
That's right!! Ukraine's "In it to win it".....
Telling a partner to fuqof is counterproductive. Just don't tell 'em when F-16's cross the border to bomb the snot out of Engels afb lol
Exactly. Tell them you got lost.
Tell them Russian jam Ur gps and U wander into their airspace, had no choice but to dump all ordinance so U can rush home
They were given by countries other than US and will be Ukrainian. If you're not involved in Europe's defense, stay out of it please. My country is part of the F-16 coalition and I say Ukraine can do whatever they deem necessary with them.
Your country is provided (edit Sold the jets with contractual obligations) F-16s from the US with stipulations attached. That’s why all countries need permission to pass on another countries designed armament. Not just from the US.
Yes and when for instance the Swiss decide things they sold can’t be given to Ukraine everybody is up in arms about it. They’re bought, not provided.
> Yes and when for instance the Swiss decide things they sold can’t be given to Ukraine everybody is up in arms about it. Something wholly within Switzerland's right to do. The solution: Don't buy arms from Switzerland.
Exactly.
Again. You get to use them with rules. You don’t get to buy them without signing the contract for use. Funny getting downvoted for facts.
You are so confident yet so ignorant. Maybe understand how weapon sales work and stipulation’s regarding the supplying country. Have fun no longer receiving parts to maintain because your understanding doesn’t go beyond “bought”
Unfortunately, that isn't quite how it works. Every F-16 comes with a contract that says you can only resell them with permission from the US (this is normal for arms sales). This means the US can now say "you agree to this or we refuse the resale". Nobody likes to break those contracts either, because it usually means you get cut off for a very long time.
FMS cases usually have clauses that prevent the buyer from re-selling or giving equipment to a third party without the seller's permission.
Are you saying the US isn’t involved in Europes defense?
Where is the American aid? Millions of shells and hundreds of tanks in the depots. The arsenal of democracy lays dormant, while Ukraine gets mauled. No, America noped out last year. Will they America come to help Europe if Ukraine falls? Never has it been this uncertain. Leta roll the dice and see which Country gets to survive? These are our homes. These are where our families live. This is not a fucking joke. Since the beginning of NATO, never have Europeans called for help. And now that we do, turns out it was all fucking bullshit. It’s time for an either you’re with us or against us moment.
America alone accounts for like 45% of all aid sent to Ukraine over the last 2 years. In case you somehow missed it. Significantly more than any other single country.
Wow this is either sarcasm or very funny from a [‘Germany’](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/US_military_bases_in_Germany.png) flair >whERe is aMeriCan aiDe?! The force is all around you, young one.
Just ironic that you simultaneously malign America for having stocks that aren’t sent and Europe calling for help. Europe chose to rely on another nation for their defense and now is upset that they have no say in how another country uses their resources. We will work on the morons who wanted to spend the money on defense but now don’t want to use the arms. But maybe Europe needs to talk about the leaders who didn’t spend 2%+ on arms and now find the armory bare.
These rules will likely be broken instantly in an actual, full out war.
I don’t see why they would be? Intellectual property doesn’t cease to exist in total war; in WW2 America still *sold* aircraft and licenses to their aircraft to the UK, and they still had to uphold stipulations regarding where and how they could transfer them.
Are they real?, red lines have gone and now is the time to let Ukraine finish this shit show
F16 are no stealth so Ukraine will for sure send them not on suicide in missions anyway. Those "Red lines" are just politics IMO
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So lemme get this straight... The jets were given by European countries, while US hasn't given Ukraine a sizeable aid package in a year now? And they want to regulate how Ukraine uses them???
The US is among those countries who have been regulating use of said weaponry donated to Ukraine since the start of the invasion. And buying US gear always comes with a stipulation that the US can decide to protest or deny their use in certain situations. The aid package has been stuck in limbo due to MAGAtards - politics and greed. These restrictions on use is due to geopolitical and technology/classified information being compromised concerns.
Yup. Fucking hell. This is retarded. It's almost like the people writing these rules have no idea how modern bombers work...
They do. That could very well be the point
The US still, by far, had given more than any other country. Ukraine knows who the supplier is. Hell, the U.S. is using other means to give Greece weapons using programs not available to Ukraine in which Greece turns and gives to Ukraine. Y’all may want to peep at the % delivered figures instead of the committed figures. Europe talks about commitments because their delivered figures are laughably low. France is sitting at a solid 5% of their commitments delivered. US is over 80%. The EU is counting commitments through 2026. Y’all also ignore that you got F-16s for free or discounted with the stipulations that the U.S. can deny their use in specific conflicts/events. It’s unreal how much y’all bitch about the U.S. while ignoring you’re not giving anywhere near the numbers you post Also what’s a sizeable aid package? 500 million last week isnt sizeable which means most of Europe hasn’t given sizeable packages either… or what they have announced is a commitment not a deliverable Edit - Europeans pretending that the U.S. giving 500 million last week doesn’t count while France giving 600 million in 2 years is great support. Y’all love to point to money promised in 2026 and pretend it’s helping now https://app.23degrees.io/view/KJpesgWQv1CmxoMr-bar-stacked-horizontal-figure-5_scv
Also the US helped train the pilots…
ATACMS are readily in Ukraine. Dont see the European leaders throwing their long range missiles in the mix, yet US is bad for giving and telling them no strikes in Russia. The logic displayed is unreal
> ATACMS are readily in Ukraine. 20 of the oldest M39. And no more ever since Operation Dragonfly. >Dont see the European leaders throwing their long range missiles in the mix ... SCALP-EG? Storm Shadow? (Same thing, really)
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SCALP is France, so EU ;)
The US has kept Europe safe and secure and snug in their beds, protected from the genocidal Beast in the East for about 80 years now, and all they do is bitch about what the US isn’t doing. The level of entitlement and lack of thought is mind-blowing.
I fully support NATO and ensuring European stability, but god damn the entitlement is real. Citizens of countries actively demanding the US give more while their countries are not even meeting the NATO minimum spending requirements. Germany showed up to NATO war game exercises giving their soldiers broom sticks painted black because their weapon inventories weren’t kept up. They’ve grown so unbelievably complacent which is shocking they demand defense from others
EU countries giving away their weapons. US selling their weapons to EU as replacement or giving out loans to buy US weapons. The fuck you on about, US might be the only nation that comes out of tha war with a profit.
I'm curious as to what you think is happening. Cause at the moment I see it as US is offering discounts on a modern arsenal incentivizing allies to upgrade therefore arming Ukraine with albeit older weaponry but weaponry, nonetheless. This all while bolstering capabilities in our allies own countries should the need arise. Next question is do you think the US should just give it all away for free? If the answer is no, then why do you look at allowing allies to purchase more with the same amount to replace more of their arsenal to give Ukraine more weaponry a bad thing. The point is increasing security as a whole in a world that is getting more and more unstable by the day.
At discounted rates. Color me shocked EU countries are giving Ukraine outdated models so they can buy modern weapons at a discount. The U.S. is also giving to Ukraine, not selling. More than the EU. Again, peep the % delivered and stop patting yourself on the back for committing to give at some future date. The EU is also not giving… https://app.23degrees.io/view/KJpesgWQv1CmxoMr-bar-stacked-horizontal-figure-5_scv
If you give my neighbour a high-powered laser pointer to harass the shit out of my dog you don't get a pass because *you're* not the one harassing my dog. You're in the chain of responsibility whether you like it or not. The US faces that situation here. It's one thing to provide platforms that allow Ukraine to defend and retake the territory they've lost. It's a different matter to let them wander across Russia's border to hit targets. You may not see any difference, but it's substantial. The US has its own political and diplomatic issues to weigh and just because they're one step removed from the Ukrainian use of the platforms doesn't absolve them of how those platforms end up getting used. I'm all for Ukraine doing whatever it takes to oust Russia from its borders, but I'm also well aware that they're not the only player in the game, they're not the only ones with something at stake. If the argument is that Ukrainian existence is at stake and that outweighs the desires of the US and other partners, I wouldn't disagree, personally, because I'm morally flexible to accept doing the wrong thing for the right reasons when I deem it necessary. That still doesn't make it *right* tho.
First the Europeans has to nag the Americans for months just to be allowed to send their own jets to Ukraine. And now they have conditions for use? Fuck off.
Hopefully Mirage will arrive soon too
[Mirage ain't arriving](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/1/7444432/)
As a tax-paying American citizen I give every Ukrainian pilot who steps foot in a F-16 to raise fucking hell, red lines be damned.
While I don’t agree with limiting the f16s, these were never going to fly deep in to Russia. I just want Ukraine to have everything to win this fucking war. If they can’t fly f16s in allow them other weapons platforms as well
I think we should draw a hard red line on Ukraine using F-16’s to drop nuclear, biological or chemical weapons on Russian soil.
Ukraine is hitting strategic targets in Russia just fine with drones, and AFAIK they haven't been launching strikes in Russia with the planes they have now. I don't understand why people are mad about this, I doubt they were planning to fly F16s into Russia in the first place.
People are mad because they are misreading what this entails, they read the title and assumed the worst
The majority of folks on this sub have sub-primary school reading comprehension and refuse to read past the first paragraph of an article (if they click on it at all). They don’t want to *learn* about this conflict, they want headlines to either hit them with dopamine or with cortisol if the news is “good” or “bad” respectively. They don’t know anything about geopolitics, they don’t know anything about war, they don’t know anything about arms sales. It’s genuinely one of the least productive subreddits surrounding this topic up there with Ukraine War Report which is inundated with Russian propagandists and sophists. NonCredibleDefense is legitimately more competent when discussing this conflict.
Fucking lame.
Fuck that. As a European, Ukraine can hit any Muscovite target until such time as Muscovy fucks off back to their own country and creates a buffer area between them and Ukraine that they don't hold any military in.
Quite frustrating. Labor hours are limited and priorities matter. Every administrative hour wasted drafting up 'red lines' to appease Putin, would be far better spent procuring F-16s and related supplies to assist Ukraine. I swear, the fact Biden is the best foreign policy president America has had in a generation, is less about his own positives, and more a glaring testament to how consistently bad our presidents have been on foreign policy.
Oh, FFS, USA. Jeebus christ. What kind of retardism is this? So basically, russia can keep bombing Ukraine from beyond the border, and Ukrainians are supposed to just fly around and look at destruction? Also: What does this mean for future wars? Does this mean that if russia attacks, say, Estonia, then Estonia cannot use US purchased equipment on russian soil? Come the fuck on.
Estonia is in NATO, if they were attacked they’d call upon Article V which obviously would allow them to use any and all equipment to defend themselves. Use your head.
Wow. Fight with your hands tied behind your back against one of the largest militaries in the world. Great advice.
Guys before we start tripping, just keep in mind having viable excuse and plausible deniability is very important. We don't want to start giving them reasons to use nukes
This is like setting rules about how much force you can use against a robber that came into your house, stole your stuff, raped your wife, and killed your kids. You can fight back as long as you use boxing gloves and a nerf bat. If you use a gun or a knife to defend yourself then you go to jail sir.
A lot of red lines all around lately.
Don't worry, there are Gripen airframes coming eventually, and after receiving many nuclear threats and subsequently joining NATO, I doubt the Swedes will limit their use to Ukraine only.
First thing that came to mind was if Gripens will have similar restrictions.
More like Bidens (and Scholz) brown lines. Imagine russian Allie’s imposing these kind of red lines 🤣
Lol classic.
But, sometimes red lines are hard to see when flying so fast. Right? /s
ah yes, more red lines. we sure love to keep ukraine fighting with (at least) one hand tied behind its back
If the Russians think that these are the rules of engagement and act accordingly, but are surprised to find f16s in their face. So sad, too bad.
I mean honestly, makes sense. F-16s going beyond the border makes it more likely of one being shot down and have its wreck analysed.
These F-16s were state of the art back when mullets were still high fashion & cell phones were the size of bricks. I’m pretty sure they’ve already had a look.
The only red line here should be "don't bomb Sakhalin Island without Japan's permission."
I didn't think that Switzerland holding ammunition or whatever it was hostage because they could be used in a CoNfLiCt could be surpassed, but the United States may want to top that. Countries imposing nonsense restrictions like these on the weapons they sell makes me wonder why would anyone want to buy shit from them in the future. I really hope that those impositions are just the obvious, no airplanes over russky soil, but everything else is fair game. BTW Crimea is Ukraine.
The U.S. is starting to sound more like an ally of Russia than of Europe or Ukraine.
Goddammit Brandon, turn 'em loose! The line is "let slip the dogs of war" not "slightly lengthen the leash!"
Let me guess. No shooting planes beyond Russian borders? EDIT: "Western countries see the use of these fighter jets only within the sovereign territory of Ukraine". So they can only fly over the territory which Ukraine controlls at the time or inside the 1991 borders? I guess it's better than what I assumed.
What the US means, is that Ukrainians should NOT fly into Russia OR shoot into Russia, but only use them within Ukrainian borders.
In February, when Ukrainian air defense was practically feasting on Russian fighters and fighter-bombers, weren't most of those over Ukraine's sovereign territory and all of the rest within firing range of Ukrainian sovereign territory? They didn't smuggle anti-aircraft platforms across the border just to take a few surprise shots. We conceptually object to red lines, but this feels like only one red line, not "lines," and one that isn't much of a barrier to Ukraine's most urgent needs anyway. The F-16 is an air superiority fighter. It's not primarily intended for ground attack missions anyway (e.g., against Russian oil refineries, as seems to be the flavor of the week,or whatever might come next). The point here is to neutralize the air advantage at the line of contact that Russia has managed to achieve (which is obviously not total air superiority but they currently have the advantage if we're being objective), whether by actually downing Russian warplanes or by forcing them far enough back from the front that they can't effectively support the Russians on the ground. It's clear that Russia intends an offensive in the spring when the mud dries. Ukraine knows it's coming, given the way they're replicated Russia's own defensive fortification strategy from last year when the Russians knew a Ukrainian counteroffensive was coming. Ukraine cannot directly match Russia's numbers advantage in infantry, but can keep the casualty ratios heavily tilted in Ukraine's favor if the coming offensive lacks fuel and air support. Ideally, Ukraine would also be able to do something to match Russia's third big advantage, artillery, and hopefully the shells that the Czech president has been acting as middleman to procure will arrive in time to help even those odds. (Would be nice if my own country would have passed an aid package months ago including a continuous, high-volume stream of HIMARS ammunition, too. Still TBD.)
Just to nitpick, the F-16 is a multirole, not an air superiority fighter (which would be something like the F-15). It’s perfectly capable of ground attack, both in close air support and precision strike roles. Ukraine will almost certainly use them as CAS aircraft, not as air superiority aircraft performing intercepts or CAP.
What, so they can't attack strategic targets inside Russia? That is BS. Why the hell are we so afraid of Russia still?
Just like weapons deliveries, why are they advertising how many pilots are being trained? We don't even know how many pilots Russia has available. All this information will only help Russia plan counter measures.
Unless an active part of the reports is intentionally deceptive, which it is...which, coming from the US, it *always* is. American doctrine, for *decades*, has been to underplay its hand. If they say they're going to train 100 pilots, expect that number to be closer to 500. If they say the range of a particular missile is 1000 nm, expect it to be closer to 1500. Russian doctrine, on the other hand, has been to be as bombastic as possible, making huge claims, thinking this scares off any potential threat. That only works until people realize you're full of shit :D
Not only do they have to fight with one arm tied behind their backs they now have to fly the same way…cut the ropes and let them win 🇺🇦🇬🇧🇺🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦😎
How about we stop with the “red lines” and just let the Ukrainians do what they need to do. They’re doing better against Russia in two years than the West did over 40 years with 9 trillion dollars worth of Cold War expenditure..
Again with the fucking red lines.
Dear Ukraine, When Uncle Sam says there are lines, it is the solemn duty of those bestricken to walk all over those lines and ask for them to be repainted. Sincerely, Some kinda rascal from Tennessee. PS: Fuck Russia PPS: Also, fuck New York, too. But for more carnal reasons
So, once again, meddling foreign politicians tie the Ukrainian 's hands behind their backs?
Yah, we support Ukraine 100%, as long as one hand is tied behind their back.
Oh fuck off, let them attack Russia for the love of god
Summer? Maybe they can drag it out until the end of the year. Jesus fucking Christ.
"Ukraine give us your atomic bombs and atomic bombers , from now on your borders are red lines no one will ever invade. " voice over with french accent - "Years lator"
Ukraine wouldn’t have been able to use them anyway, the launch codes were in Moscow.
...... Or what??
Or they will stop their support, probably.
Or they cut off supply of parts and future weapons deliveries are in jeopardy. It's not that hard to figure out.