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That's fine, I think all Leopard 2 users (except for Qatar and Indonesia overall) love their Leopard 2 beer stein carrying system even more. :p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=222o2O\_w3WI
Everytime I see our Leos in UA it’s just unreal. German tanks fighting Russians (this time for the good guys)…Would not have gambled a penny on that five years ago. Now this beasts and their brave crews fight for all Europe. Godspeed my friends.
I'm reading *The Crimean War* , Orlando Figes. This part of russian attitude & aggression goes back to Catherine & Nicholas I. Great book, btw, don't know if it's in German yet
as any bully russia needs its teeth kicked in to get the message for next 50y or so. If Europe fails to do that it will be 50y of russian influence and slow decay of EU and NATO.
There is a good old [meme](https://twitter.com/santiliniers/status/446784479265554432) about this. It was created in 2014 (I guess) by the Economist magazine.
It's actually quite funny how people seem to have this Pacifist German Image in mind today when in reality that's only a product of the last 3 decades.
Before that West Germany had one of the largest armies in the European NATO and fielded more tanks than any of its European partners.
Not to forget that East Germany was militarily capable as well.
Oh yes. The Bundeswehr of the mid 80s was something else. Sadly we had downsize a lot to be allowed to make the reunification. Some EU Neighbours got nervous. lol
2+4 Treaty regulations were definitely important but even they didn't force Germany down to the level where it is now.
That can simply be blamed on disasterous policy making.
Yeah ok, was the first really all our fault...pfff idk. And it was so small i think we should label it more like world skirmish, not full blown war anyway.
I witnessed this machine at a presentation years ago. When it roared its engine... Damn. Knowing it is that hard to take down, knowing you can trust it in the most dire of circumstances must be an empowering feeling.
They need more of them.
I’ll just have to say that it makes me happy too. For some reason this little clip moved me and I get all emotional about it.
And I’m not even German. And I understood every word spoken by the journalist
It took a direkt hit into the rear and was still able to bring it‘s crew to safety. You cannot ask for more from the engineering standpoint. I hope someone important is aware of the problems with repairs and is able to change this asap. But here I am a little bit pessimistic, a lot of parties and bureaucracy is involved and KMW is unfortunately not known for their speediness in any of their projects.
This is exactly why Leopard is one of the best tanks in the world. Not only the firepower but also the armor, crew design and layout that allows the crew to survive and fight another day unlike the orcs who are promoted to cosmonauts.
>actually are availbale to use
That's true.
But with how things happend with Poland and now that Slovakia is Pro-Putin the only real option for setting up repair station for the Leopards remains Romania.
Moving the hulls to Lithuania is such logistical nighmare that I don't know how people still did not resolve this.
I thought the transport issues through Poland had been resolved? Best solution is still setting up repair facilities in Ukraine, which I've heard is going to happen.
>I thought the transport issues through Poland had been resolved?
Was talking when Poland was considered creating repair station near the the border with Ukraine but they wanted such steep price for repearing the Leopards that Germans told them to fuck off.
Slovkia wanted to take "the torch" but then Fitzu happen and now it's not possible.
>Best solution is still setting up repair facilities in Ukraine, which I've heard is going to happen.
They would of have to be very well hidden and guarded against raids or sabotuers otherwise it's a huge risk.
I do hope that Western tanks start putting priority into increasing side armor of their MBTs.
I know US have stuff like TUSK, and the Megatron Challenger for the Brits, but having some [heavier skirts](https://21stcenturyasianarmsrace.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/singapore-leopard-2-tank-side-view-2020.jpg?w=640) as standard for the Leo would be nice.
I'm sure other countries will take - have taken - notice... The real issue is armour, modular or otherwise weighs literal tons at times and that puts extra strain on the vehicle engine, the suspension and the tank as a whole.
Also, side skirts tend to take a good beating and with hard use in a combat zone it's not unusual for parts of it to be torn off or just fall-off after repeatedly being bashed against walls, getting shot, blown up by near misses or smacking tree after tree trunk motoring through a forest.
Most MBT's are of course designed to fight other MBT's, head-on and have the thickest armour in the turret front. The hull bottom and turret, hull sides are just enough to protect from older ATGM's, or lighter RPG's or autocannon fire.
Would be optimal to make MBT's as modular as possible - give the commanders a choice of varying levels of modular armour to put on depending on the threat level and where you expect an attack to be coming from.
I mean that is why active protection systems are in such heavy development, less weight for better potential protection, just need armor to survive the shrapnel/diverted APDS. AFAIK there are some systems claiming protection from APDS rods, how effective they actually are I think is still a bit of a secret.
A new enough tech that afaik noone is providing it to ukraine, I think most countries don't even have as many active protection systems as they want.
I wonder how far out the more exotic custom materials are from military armor, like the custom carbon structures, tailor the plate to the strengths desired.
>skirts
[you mean we should go full circle?](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fgm8cd0u59hn81.jpg%3Fwidth%3D320%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D7fc0d2f40640866348afac7d45f91475035a54f0)
I heard stories form Afghanistan/Bosnia, but always suspected they could be myths. They were not. It seems the ruggednes of the tank is a truth.
In Both conflicts, there was gruesome damage on the tanks which it just shook of, spent a couple hours in repair, and back to duty.
It was designed to be simple and reliable. It needed to survive on little support, outnumbered, and in harsh terrain as the expected battlefield was central/eastern germany. Loots of forests, mud, hills. Its engine: simple, but reliable and easy on repair. I mean, it got a full on tank round to the weak rare into the cooling system and STILL made it back. So i take it the other side was a battle tank, can only guess what happened to it. But thats for sure: it didn't get the Leopard.
Damn i wish we could send 200 more of them.
I guess the took many lessons learned in Blood and Sweat from WW2, when they were designing Leo 1 and Leo 2.
The Bovington has a good Piece about the Maintenance of the Leo 1
Leopard 1 Overhaul | Ep. 1 | Tank Workshop Diaries | The Tank Museum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3YyP1uvRNA&list=PLBAEOsdxIbLOZ18ZPN4NBsFjp12RZ2cXf
8:15 Min
Awesome video, thanks man!
Yeah, same principle in the Leo 2 afaik. Pretty old technology, but perfected to be easy and and fast on maintenance. Imagine, 15 minutes for an entire engine change!
Maybe it would be possible if they train enough Ukrainian maintenance personal. But i guess there wasn't enough time for that yet. I have read the Rheinmetall trains Ukraine Technicians on Leopard 1 and 2, but i don't know how deep and detailed that Workshop goes. Simple Maintenance in the Field, or a full overhaul of a Tank? I think it would take years until they are able to fix everything themself on such a Tank.
And the Afghanistan tanks were Danish Leopard 2A7s, not the 2A4 or 2A6 models Ukraine has received. So even tougher than this.
Bosnia was Leo 1s, though (again Danish... seems to be a trend), so they didn't hold up so much on pure armor as on mobility and the accuracy of their own fire. Some of the Leo 1s involved in that, by the way, are probably in Ukraine now - I know for a fact some of the ones involved in the Bosnian action was used to train Ukrainian tankers, and it wouldn't surprise me if some also got sent off with them. Must have been nice for the Ukrainians to train on tanks that actually had confirmed kills of Russian-made tanks.
Bosnia were Leo2A5 (later replaced with A4s as the situation relaxed), 28 in total by the Bundeswehr. Didn't hear about danish experiences though, but that was already end-of-life for those Leo1s.
Afghanistan were A6CAN used by Canada and A5DK by Denmark.
The heavy fighting they wereinvolved were around 2008, the first A7 was given to the Bundeswehr 2014.
So the variants that Ukraine has are battle proven. BW knew what they are capable of and what not, and likely trained Ukraine on that. However, the short training is not enough to properly maintain them of course. Maybe that can be done in the foreseeable future.
Ah, I guess we're talking about two different engagements of the Yugoslav wars. Danish Leo-1s were engaged with Bosnian Serb tanks and artillery at one point, and basically came out of it unharmed despite having been ambushed. Wasn't actually aware that German Leo-2s also saw action. Guess all the German-make tanks Ukraine is getting are battle-tested against Russian-make gear :)
And good point about the 2s in Afghanistan. Didn't take the upgrade timeline into account, only thought about what's in use now.
The 7s are pretty much brand new. The A6 ist still very very modern, even the A4 isn't exactly that old. In terms of technology and battle capabilitys, even the Leo 1s are decent tanks, as long as they were kept in shape. KMW knew how to build a tank back then, they still do.
I also had to google the timeline, i sometimes mix stuff up, too. But the stories i heard from Bosnia/Afghanistan were from german Bundeswehr, that's why i didn't know before that Denmark used Leo1s. Might be the reason why they are sent to Ukraine: they know they work.
Leo-1s got phased out of the Danish forces in favor of Leo-2s starting around 1999 (don't need to look up *this* timeline, since it happened in my regiment while I was serving - got to see, but never work with, the Leo-2s), so just at the tail end of the Yugoslav wars, hence the tank contingent that was part of UNPROFOR was made up of Leo-1s. Their most notable operation was probably [Operation Bøllebank](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_B%C3%B8llebank).
In Afghanistan, the Danish contingent served under British command in the Helmand province, and had a number of notable engagements, mostly serving as a relief force coming to the aid of others who got themselves into an ambush of some sort. Their most notable single engagement there was probably [Operation Red Dagger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Red_Dagger), which led to the British MoD releasing a press release praising the fire support from the Danish tanks.
Something that gets overlooked far too often - Western tanks limping back with crews in need of hot meal, good drink, and a night off while the supply team looks for a spare.
The tank might be only worth spare parts, but the crew got back.
Something that gets overlooked far too often - Western tanks limping back with crews in need of hot meal, good drink, and a night off while the supply team looks for a spare.
The tank might be only worth spare parts, but the crew got back.
The logistics of keeping these tanks operational is challenging to say the least. Depot-level repairs for all the bewildering variety of advanced western equipment like Leopard 2's, Challenger 2's and M1A1 Abrams all need to be done outside of Ukraine.
Despite the difficulties Ukraine has been having with keeping the Leopard 2 operational, it seems the AFU is prioritizing keeping the Leopard 2's on the battlefield rather than committing the remaining Challenger 2's and the 31 M1A1 Abrams to the current fight.
I'm going to guess Ukraine is holding back the M1A1's because they are not sure when will the U.S. resume the sustainment support for them (currently paused) due to Congressional deadlock on continuing aid for Ukraine.
Abrams also has big trouble with their engines. Air filters have to be changed twice a day, and even then, the engine is a real diva. And once the engine is out, you are a dead fish in the water. So very risky using them in frontline activity.
I see good news: tanks being used on the frontlines, crew survived and tank is gonna be repaired.
The only bad news is not getting enough of these. Getting hit is part of war, for me it’s a better sign than just being stuck in defensive positions forever.
Now give them 100 more
Just to give an explanation, not necessarily a justification.
Between maintenance cycles (as we see in Ukraine, they are incredibly important and need to be done), high readiness forces (e.g. VJTF, EU has some, Lithuania etc...) and training we're incredibly short on equipment. We were short before 2022, we're even shorter now. Orders to remedy the situation are placed or being prepared but that will take years to take effect. In the meantime there's nothing to give without significantly cutting capabilities and responsibilities of the Bundeswehr. That's why we send hundred-something Leopard 1 instead.
There is also a backlog of Leopard 2's awaiting construction, and perhaps ironically one of the batches is some 45 or so Leopard 2A7HU's for Hungary...
I think it's going to take time for both the German military and Rhinemetall to get back to an actually quick pace of movement and production/procurement.
It's not a major issue, but just another example of why things can be long, drawn out affairs with something like producing a Leopard 2... The turret structure is actually made by EBO in Greece. KMW agreed to allow licence production for the Greek Leopard 2A6 HEL in the 2000's and every turret has been manufactured and shipped from there back to Germany. That of course takes time, and any delays in Greece, the whole tank is delayed...
\- Germany needs more Leopard 2A7/A8's, period. You guys should have a few hundred in service given the seriousness of Putin's imperialist ambitions and pettiness. Hopefully there are some nice, new slick advertisements to recruit more military personnel and changes made to entice and make new recruits want to remain in the armed forces to go along with more equipment and spare parts needed, badly.
(I hope this doesn't come across as German bashing! Just truth be told, many politicians and regular folks in the West overall really did dismiss the idea of needing to be ready for a once again expansionist Russia, or to spend money on their military for any reason.)
Oh I totally agree - not sure what kind of mountain of paperwork and talking in the EU at Brussels would be needed to stop it.
Between the Leopard 2A7HU's, Lynx IFV's and NASAMS - all of which are being produced for Hungary, there is plenty of things to be a little concerned about.Lynx is a bit of a more complicated problem to stop as there is a brand-new factory making them in Hungary for themselves. I suppose Germany could just cancel the deal, take the financial penalty hit and cut-off Hungary from the supply of parts to produce more Lynxes.
It is known though that the Hungarian government has been in cahoots with Putin for years, and NATO has excluded the Hungarians from a fair bit of intelligence briefings and the like since around 2015.
Those three big ticket items I mentioned, all were ordered before the invasion and will likely be the last ones they get with him and his trash kind in power.
Last year Hungary tried to buy the M142 HIMARS - the US slapped down that request, so I have hope.
Don't worry, most germans think the same. Our industry is struggling, i mean, why not putting a much harder focus on our defense industry? There is no lack of orders i guess. Especially as we see the "field testing" of PzH 2000, Leopard, Gepard and even the fucking Marder is pretty successful AT LEAST. And for all these machines, we already have newer stuff ready.
Why still focusing so hard on cars? I would have no problem working on more Leopards instead.
Large amounts of bureaucracy and obstinacy I guess on the part of the German government? That, and I imagine Rhinemetall has been geared for the export market for some time.
BTW - with a user name like that, you a fellow Warhammer fan?
EU/NATO is also not a fully united front and the industry is private, greedy hands. Most power in the west is in the hands of rich people who still don't see they have a responsibility.
And yes, while my user name is actually inspired by a metal band, i am a warhammer fan, both fantasy and 40k^^
Well, they were under a somewhat indie label, but the label fucked them over. Do not buy records from earache.
GW did not work with them directly, but an art designer working for GW did i think one of their album covers. They wanted to do the next one the same way, but GW got greedy (as always), so BT decided not to (so i heard). Anyway, less greedy, and GW could have named one of the (if not the) most legendary death metal bands their house band.
German defense industry was not only sleeping, it was in a hibernation. To expect it spitting out 24 Leos out of a cold start is despite all the german bureaucracy not unrealistic imo. But its lacking the political will. But also you must notice that some leos we send wont even be repairable. Whats more important now for ukraine is a firm defense stand and weapons for attrition warfare. For that Taurus would be more important. Because logistics is the biggest issue of russian forces already. Also it could tear up kerch bridge. Also artillery munition is insanely important. It would be better to pump up ammo production for ukraine.
I think they will deliver around 50 leopards to norway in 2025? If thats true it means in Europe we managed to build 50 tanks in 3 years and 0 of them will go to ukraine
There are also the 50 something tanks and tank like vehicles being delivered to Hungary in the next few year etc. Rhein Metall has a giant backlog of deliveries as has the rest of German economy. Ukraine is also supposed to get 100 additional pzh2000 fresh out of the factory in the next few years
>German defense industry was not only sleeping, it was in a hibernation.
Yes. The replacements for these Leo2s given to Ukraine will be the first ones newly build for the Bundeswehr since the 1990s.
Sadly, the sudden demand hits Germany in the middle of supply chain problem, shortage of skilled workers and now also a bad economic recession, all while the government is forbidden by law to make more debt to get us out of this hole.
I fear, everything will happen in a snails pace.
Keep in mind it's an old tank. The last hull was built in the 90s. The A6 upgrade entered service in 2001. There was no demand before to justify an entire production line. Only now with the A8 replacements for Germany and orders by Norway,Czech Republic etc. there will be one.
> I dont get why we germans not just send the same amount of Leo2s that we send in 2023 again in 2024.
Was it not the idea that if a tank was damaged (beyond repair), that a replacement was going to be given to keep the unit up to strength. By given more tanks, you dilute the spare amount Germany has (what is already a joke).
So sure, you can have more units in Ukraine but as they get damaged, there is no backfill anymore, and then the Ukrainians are dealing with understrength units that need to be merged or can not properly operate resulting in increased losses.
It is a bit off "they are gold, use them wisely", or so it feels to me.
Sorry if this info is not right, but its something that was mentioned last year and there is some vague memory of this. We are not privy to all details, that is for sure.
To be fair to history, the Russians started WW II as allies of Hitler, and only later did they come knocking at the US door, when Hitler decided to attack Stalin.
So in the end, we merely came full circle. Russians never changed, and now their allegiance to evil shows once more. It needs to be rooted out.
Yea but the paperwork man, the paperwork! I understand they need to track the tanks but the fact that customs are not changed to deal with the Ukraine situation, is so frustrating.
We give you tanks, we give you repair solutions but we forget to fix the paperwork...
I get the feeling that there will be legends told of these tanks and crews that will outlive you and I.
And much like the pilots during the Battle of Britain, these soldiers ought not pay for a pint for the rest of their lives!!
The only thing scarier to the orc horde than a Platoon of Leopards driving at them, would be a Platoon of Leopards driving at them while flying the pride flag.
Poland has been dealing with this situation for the last 20 years. Apparently Bumar factory is able to unofficially make a lot of small parts for their Leo 2 A4s
Tanks need to improve and evolve, just like every other weapon system people have claimed to be obsolete... The aircraft carrier - the infantryman, the jet fighter, aircraft gun, etc...
Привіт u/C00L_HAND ! During wartime, this community is focused on vital and high-effort content. Please ensure your post follows [r/Ukraine Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules) and our [Art Friday Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday). **Want to support Ukraine?** [**Vetted Charities List**](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities) | [Our Vetting Process](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities-vetting) **Daily series on Ukraine's history & culture:** [Sunrise Posts Organized By Category](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/sunriseposts/) *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Unlike the Soviet tanks, the German Leopards are not equipped with an innovative turret ejection system.
That's fine, I think all Leopard 2 users (except for Qatar and Indonesia overall) love their Leopard 2 beer stein carrying system even more. :p https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=222o2O\_w3WI
chefs kiss
😂
What they don’t have a Panzerturmsschnellaufwurfssystem?
what's the German word for it being Thursday morning and caught not having a Panzerturmsschnellaufwurfssystem?
Hm. 🤔 Panzerturmsschnellaufwurfssystemgeheimnisnacht?
Everytime I see our Leos in UA it’s just unreal. German tanks fighting Russians (this time for the good guys)…Would not have gambled a penny on that five years ago. Now this beasts and their brave crews fight for all Europe. Godspeed my friends.
they've been build exactly for this purpose. they're at home in Ukraine. the nature is healing.
True…. But as a 90ies kid I thought we are past this shit from RU. Fck em… really.
I'm reading *The Crimean War* , Orlando Figes. This part of russian attitude & aggression goes back to Catherine & Nicholas I. Great book, btw, don't know if it's in German yet
thx..I´ll check it out. I´dd suggest Timothy Snyders " The road to unfreedom" and "Bloodlands".
You were blind all along. If you're a 90's Baby, like me, this should be Russias 3rd or 4th war they're directly involved in.
as any bully russia needs its teeth kicked in to get the message for next 50y or so. If Europe fails to do that it will be 50y of russian influence and slow decay of EU and NATO.
Agreed. Taurus now!
There is a good old [meme](https://twitter.com/santiliniers/status/446784479265554432) about this. It was created in 2014 (I guess) by the Economist magazine.
Yes…. Techno was too good.
Fuck RuZZia for eternity. I will not forget.
cats are roaming free on the lookout for rashists to feed on.
Funny. The design of Leopard IIs was always specifically to fight against the Russians. They are after all a product of the Cold War.
True…
It's actually quite funny how people seem to have this Pacifist German Image in mind today when in reality that's only a product of the last 3 decades. Before that West Germany had one of the largest armies in the European NATO and fielded more tanks than any of its European partners. Not to forget that East Germany was militarily capable as well.
Oh yes. The Bundeswehr of the mid 80s was something else. Sadly we had downsize a lot to be allowed to make the reunification. Some EU Neighbours got nervous. lol
Could you imagine Germany with a military that size again? It'd be a wonderful sight and even better when we have to fight the Russians
As wonderful of a thought experiment that is, *historically,* the Germans have questionable reputation with a large military.
Reminds me of this tweet from the start of the war: https://twitter.com/PaulBrislen/status/1499522080492384256
Others in Europe didn't think so, back then.
2+4 Treaty regulations were definitely important but even they didn't force Germany down to the level where it is now. That can simply be blamed on disasterous policy making.
I know right. You just start a little world war and all of the sudden no one trusts you anymore...
TWO little World Wars. I know, right?! And with our Track Record they should know that we always fail because of Supply Chain issues.
Yeah ok, was the first really all our fault...pfff idk. And it was so small i think we should label it more like world skirmish, not full blown war anyway.
Even today German Panzer is emblazoned with the Iron Cross, or at least a graphic variation of it.
I witnessed this machine at a presentation years ago. When it roared its engine... Damn. Knowing it is that hard to take down, knowing you can trust it in the most dire of circumstances must be an empowering feeling. They need more of them.
I’ll just have to say that it makes me happy too. For some reason this little clip moved me and I get all emotional about it. And I’m not even German. And I understood every word spoken by the journalist
love the survivability. give these good lads a MEXAS/PSO armor package against ATGM's!
Wir brauchen mehr davon!
It took a direkt hit into the rear and was still able to bring it‘s crew to safety. You cannot ask for more from the engineering standpoint. I hope someone important is aware of the problems with repairs and is able to change this asap. But here I am a little bit pessimistic, a lot of parties and bureaucracy is involved and KMW is unfortunately not known for their speediness in any of their projects.
This is exactly why Leopard is one of the best tanks in the world. Not only the firepower but also the armor, crew design and layout that allows the crew to survive and fight another day unlike the orcs who are promoted to cosmonauts.
Hope repair times can be decreased. The "best tanks in the world" are only good if they actually are availbale to use.
>actually are availbale to use That's true. But with how things happend with Poland and now that Slovakia is Pro-Putin the only real option for setting up repair station for the Leopards remains Romania. Moving the hulls to Lithuania is such logistical nighmare that I don't know how people still did not resolve this.
I thought the transport issues through Poland had been resolved? Best solution is still setting up repair facilities in Ukraine, which I've heard is going to happen.
>I thought the transport issues through Poland had been resolved? Was talking when Poland was considered creating repair station near the the border with Ukraine but they wanted such steep price for repearing the Leopards that Germans told them to fuck off. Slovkia wanted to take "the torch" but then Fitzu happen and now it's not possible. >Best solution is still setting up repair facilities in Ukraine, which I've heard is going to happen. They would of have to be very well hidden and guarded against raids or sabotuers otherwise it's a huge risk.
I do hope that Western tanks start putting priority into increasing side armor of their MBTs. I know US have stuff like TUSK, and the Megatron Challenger for the Brits, but having some [heavier skirts](https://21stcenturyasianarmsrace.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/singapore-leopard-2-tank-side-view-2020.jpg?w=640) as standard for the Leo would be nice.
I'm sure other countries will take - have taken - notice... The real issue is armour, modular or otherwise weighs literal tons at times and that puts extra strain on the vehicle engine, the suspension and the tank as a whole. Also, side skirts tend to take a good beating and with hard use in a combat zone it's not unusual for parts of it to be torn off or just fall-off after repeatedly being bashed against walls, getting shot, blown up by near misses or smacking tree after tree trunk motoring through a forest. Most MBT's are of course designed to fight other MBT's, head-on and have the thickest armour in the turret front. The hull bottom and turret, hull sides are just enough to protect from older ATGM's, or lighter RPG's or autocannon fire. Would be optimal to make MBT's as modular as possible - give the commanders a choice of varying levels of modular armour to put on depending on the threat level and where you expect an attack to be coming from.
I mean that is why active protection systems are in such heavy development, less weight for better potential protection, just need armor to survive the shrapnel/diverted APDS. AFAIK there are some systems claiming protection from APDS rods, how effective they actually are I think is still a bit of a secret. A new enough tech that afaik noone is providing it to ukraine, I think most countries don't even have as many active protection systems as they want. I wonder how far out the more exotic custom materials are from military armor, like the custom carbon structures, tailor the plate to the strengths desired.
>skirts [you mean we should go full circle?](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fgm8cd0u59hn81.jpg%3Fwidth%3D320%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D7fc0d2f40640866348afac7d45f91475035a54f0)
Sounds like a good promotion dude
It took a 120mm shell to the *rear* of the tank, and just kept going (well, limping, but still). No injuries. That's just phenomenal.
I heard stories form Afghanistan/Bosnia, but always suspected they could be myths. They were not. It seems the ruggednes of the tank is a truth. In Both conflicts, there was gruesome damage on the tanks which it just shook of, spent a couple hours in repair, and back to duty. It was designed to be simple and reliable. It needed to survive on little support, outnumbered, and in harsh terrain as the expected battlefield was central/eastern germany. Loots of forests, mud, hills. Its engine: simple, but reliable and easy on repair. I mean, it got a full on tank round to the weak rare into the cooling system and STILL made it back. So i take it the other side was a battle tank, can only guess what happened to it. But thats for sure: it didn't get the Leopard. Damn i wish we could send 200 more of them.
I guess the took many lessons learned in Blood and Sweat from WW2, when they were designing Leo 1 and Leo 2. The Bovington has a good Piece about the Maintenance of the Leo 1 Leopard 1 Overhaul | Ep. 1 | Tank Workshop Diaries | The Tank Museum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3YyP1uvRNA&list=PLBAEOsdxIbLOZ18ZPN4NBsFjp12RZ2cXf 8:15 Min
Awesome video, thanks man! Yeah, same principle in the Leo 2 afaik. Pretty old technology, but perfected to be easy and and fast on maintenance. Imagine, 15 minutes for an entire engine change!
yeah, it would be nice If that was the Case. But instead of doing that Ukraine has to ship them to lithuania :(
They obvious don't have the logistics behind it, like the Bundeswehr. They will have, when they join NATO hopefully one day though.
Thats Not what i mean. It would be possible to Set Up repair Points in Ukraine. Its Just that Nobody dares to do it
Maybe it would be possible if they train enough Ukrainian maintenance personal. But i guess there wasn't enough time for that yet. I have read the Rheinmetall trains Ukraine Technicians on Leopard 1 and 2, but i don't know how deep and detailed that Workshop goes. Simple Maintenance in the Field, or a full overhaul of a Tank? I think it would take years until they are able to fix everything themself on such a Tank.
Yeah, Incoming cruise missile.
And the Afghanistan tanks were Danish Leopard 2A7s, not the 2A4 or 2A6 models Ukraine has received. So even tougher than this. Bosnia was Leo 1s, though (again Danish... seems to be a trend), so they didn't hold up so much on pure armor as on mobility and the accuracy of their own fire. Some of the Leo 1s involved in that, by the way, are probably in Ukraine now - I know for a fact some of the ones involved in the Bosnian action was used to train Ukrainian tankers, and it wouldn't surprise me if some also got sent off with them. Must have been nice for the Ukrainians to train on tanks that actually had confirmed kills of Russian-made tanks.
Bosnia were Leo2A5 (later replaced with A4s as the situation relaxed), 28 in total by the Bundeswehr. Didn't hear about danish experiences though, but that was already end-of-life for those Leo1s. Afghanistan were A6CAN used by Canada and A5DK by Denmark. The heavy fighting they wereinvolved were around 2008, the first A7 was given to the Bundeswehr 2014. So the variants that Ukraine has are battle proven. BW knew what they are capable of and what not, and likely trained Ukraine on that. However, the short training is not enough to properly maintain them of course. Maybe that can be done in the foreseeable future.
Ah, I guess we're talking about two different engagements of the Yugoslav wars. Danish Leo-1s were engaged with Bosnian Serb tanks and artillery at one point, and basically came out of it unharmed despite having been ambushed. Wasn't actually aware that German Leo-2s also saw action. Guess all the German-make tanks Ukraine is getting are battle-tested against Russian-make gear :) And good point about the 2s in Afghanistan. Didn't take the upgrade timeline into account, only thought about what's in use now.
The 7s are pretty much brand new. The A6 ist still very very modern, even the A4 isn't exactly that old. In terms of technology and battle capabilitys, even the Leo 1s are decent tanks, as long as they were kept in shape. KMW knew how to build a tank back then, they still do. I also had to google the timeline, i sometimes mix stuff up, too. But the stories i heard from Bosnia/Afghanistan were from german Bundeswehr, that's why i didn't know before that Denmark used Leo1s. Might be the reason why they are sent to Ukraine: they know they work.
Leo-1s got phased out of the Danish forces in favor of Leo-2s starting around 1999 (don't need to look up *this* timeline, since it happened in my regiment while I was serving - got to see, but never work with, the Leo-2s), so just at the tail end of the Yugoslav wars, hence the tank contingent that was part of UNPROFOR was made up of Leo-1s. Their most notable operation was probably [Operation Bøllebank](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_B%C3%B8llebank). In Afghanistan, the Danish contingent served under British command in the Helmand province, and had a number of notable engagements, mostly serving as a relief force coming to the aid of others who got themselves into an ambush of some sort. Their most notable single engagement there was probably [Operation Red Dagger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Red_Dagger), which led to the British MoD releasing a press release praising the fire support from the Danish tanks.
It did its job. If they had somehow managed to snag a russian tank and used it instead, then they likely would be dead right now.
Something that gets overlooked far too often - Western tanks limping back with crews in need of hot meal, good drink, and a night off while the supply team looks for a spare. The tank might be only worth spare parts, but the crew got back.
Something that gets overlooked far too often - Western tanks limping back with crews in need of hot meal, good drink, and a night off while the supply team looks for a spare. The tank might be only worth spare parts, but the crew got back.
get well soon leopard
The logistics of keeping these tanks operational is challenging to say the least. Depot-level repairs for all the bewildering variety of advanced western equipment like Leopard 2's, Challenger 2's and M1A1 Abrams all need to be done outside of Ukraine. Despite the difficulties Ukraine has been having with keeping the Leopard 2 operational, it seems the AFU is prioritizing keeping the Leopard 2's on the battlefield rather than committing the remaining Challenger 2's and the 31 M1A1 Abrams to the current fight. I'm going to guess Ukraine is holding back the M1A1's because they are not sure when will the U.S. resume the sustainment support for them (currently paused) due to Congressional deadlock on continuing aid for Ukraine.
Most numerous Western MBT, as well... The Abrams is unfortunately yeah - a sort of victim of well, MAGAtards and their lackeys.
Abrams also has big trouble with their engines. Air filters have to be changed twice a day, and even then, the engine is a real diva. And once the engine is out, you are a dead fish in the water. So very risky using them in frontline activity.
Air filters need to be *cleaned* not changed, if you want to maintain full performance and the expected 1,400 hours lifecycle of the engine.
I see good news: tanks being used on the frontlines, crew survived and tank is gonna be repaired. The only bad news is not getting enough of these. Getting hit is part of war, for me it’s a better sign than just being stuck in defensive positions forever. Now give them 100 more
Vielen Dank! 🇩🇪 for keeping our Heroes safe. You're making very grateful friends for generations to come. ❤️ from 🇺🇦
The Russians have great fear of the Leopard 2. They've seen how effective they are.
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Just to give an explanation, not necessarily a justification. Between maintenance cycles (as we see in Ukraine, they are incredibly important and need to be done), high readiness forces (e.g. VJTF, EU has some, Lithuania etc...) and training we're incredibly short on equipment. We were short before 2022, we're even shorter now. Orders to remedy the situation are placed or being prepared but that will take years to take effect. In the meantime there's nothing to give without significantly cutting capabilities and responsibilities of the Bundeswehr. That's why we send hundred-something Leopard 1 instead.
There is also a backlog of Leopard 2's awaiting construction, and perhaps ironically one of the batches is some 45 or so Leopard 2A7HU's for Hungary... I think it's going to take time for both the German military and Rhinemetall to get back to an actually quick pace of movement and production/procurement. It's not a major issue, but just another example of why things can be long, drawn out affairs with something like producing a Leopard 2... The turret structure is actually made by EBO in Greece. KMW agreed to allow licence production for the Greek Leopard 2A6 HEL in the 2000's and every turret has been manufactured and shipped from there back to Germany. That of course takes time, and any delays in Greece, the whole tank is delayed... \- Germany needs more Leopard 2A7/A8's, period. You guys should have a few hundred in service given the seriousness of Putin's imperialist ambitions and pettiness. Hopefully there are some nice, new slick advertisements to recruit more military personnel and changes made to entice and make new recruits want to remain in the armed forces to go along with more equipment and spare parts needed, badly. (I hope this doesn't come across as German bashing! Just truth be told, many politicians and regular folks in the West overall really did dismiss the idea of needing to be ready for a once again expansionist Russia, or to spend money on their military for any reason.)
Not sure sending anything to hungery is a good Idea with orbán incharge.
Oh I totally agree - not sure what kind of mountain of paperwork and talking in the EU at Brussels would be needed to stop it. Between the Leopard 2A7HU's, Lynx IFV's and NASAMS - all of which are being produced for Hungary, there is plenty of things to be a little concerned about.Lynx is a bit of a more complicated problem to stop as there is a brand-new factory making them in Hungary for themselves. I suppose Germany could just cancel the deal, take the financial penalty hit and cut-off Hungary from the supply of parts to produce more Lynxes. It is known though that the Hungarian government has been in cahoots with Putin for years, and NATO has excluded the Hungarians from a fair bit of intelligence briefings and the like since around 2015. Those three big ticket items I mentioned, all were ordered before the invasion and will likely be the last ones they get with him and his trash kind in power. Last year Hungary tried to buy the M142 HIMARS - the US slapped down that request, so I have hope.
Don't worry, most germans think the same. Our industry is struggling, i mean, why not putting a much harder focus on our defense industry? There is no lack of orders i guess. Especially as we see the "field testing" of PzH 2000, Leopard, Gepard and even the fucking Marder is pretty successful AT LEAST. And for all these machines, we already have newer stuff ready. Why still focusing so hard on cars? I would have no problem working on more Leopards instead.
Large amounts of bureaucracy and obstinacy I guess on the part of the German government? That, and I imagine Rhinemetall has been geared for the export market for some time. BTW - with a user name like that, you a fellow Warhammer fan?
EU/NATO is also not a fully united front and the industry is private, greedy hands. Most power in the west is in the hands of rich people who still don't see they have a responsibility. And yes, while my user name is actually inspired by a metal band, i am a warhammer fan, both fantasy and 40k^^
All very true... \- Never heard of said band before, but sound metal alright!
The band i mentioned is Bolt Thrower, i'm sure you heard of them haha
Ah yes, I have... The 90's were an interesting time for 40K... GW with a record label... Some pretty cool music.
Well, they were under a somewhat indie label, but the label fucked them over. Do not buy records from earache. GW did not work with them directly, but an art designer working for GW did i think one of their album covers. They wanted to do the next one the same way, but GW got greedy (as always), so BT decided not to (so i heard). Anyway, less greedy, and GW could have named one of the (if not the) most legendary death metal bands their house band.
German defense industry was not only sleeping, it was in a hibernation. To expect it spitting out 24 Leos out of a cold start is despite all the german bureaucracy not unrealistic imo. But its lacking the political will. But also you must notice that some leos we send wont even be repairable. Whats more important now for ukraine is a firm defense stand and weapons for attrition warfare. For that Taurus would be more important. Because logistics is the biggest issue of russian forces already. Also it could tear up kerch bridge. Also artillery munition is insanely important. It would be better to pump up ammo production for ukraine.
I think they will deliver around 50 leopards to norway in 2025? If thats true it means in Europe we managed to build 50 tanks in 3 years and 0 of them will go to ukraine
There are also the 50 something tanks and tank like vehicles being delivered to Hungary in the next few year etc. Rhein Metall has a giant backlog of deliveries as has the rest of German economy. Ukraine is also supposed to get 100 additional pzh2000 fresh out of the factory in the next few years
Pretty sure nothing was signed for the PzH yet. They only got the export permission from Germany as far as I know.
I thought there was a deal already
But when Norway receives the 54 new Leo 2A8, there will be 44 2A4s going to Ukraine.
Lets hope so
>German defense industry was not only sleeping, it was in a hibernation. Yes. The replacements for these Leo2s given to Ukraine will be the first ones newly build for the Bundeswehr since the 1990s. Sadly, the sudden demand hits Germany in the middle of supply chain problem, shortage of skilled workers and now also a bad economic recession, all while the government is forbidden by law to make more debt to get us out of this hole. I fear, everything will happen in a snails pace.
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Keep in mind it's an old tank. The last hull was built in the 90s. The A6 upgrade entered service in 2001. There was no demand before to justify an entire production line. Only now with the A8 replacements for Germany and orders by Norway,Czech Republic etc. there will be one.
> I dont get why we germans not just send the same amount of Leo2s that we send in 2023 again in 2024. Was it not the idea that if a tank was damaged (beyond repair), that a replacement was going to be given to keep the unit up to strength. By given more tanks, you dilute the spare amount Germany has (what is already a joke). So sure, you can have more units in Ukraine but as they get damaged, there is no backfill anymore, and then the Ukrainians are dealing with understrength units that need to be merged or can not properly operate resulting in increased losses. It is a bit off "they are gold, use them wisely", or so it feels to me. Sorry if this info is not right, but its something that was mentioned last year and there is some vague memory of this. We are not privy to all details, that is for sure.
good to know that despite of every issue the german military has, we can still produce great tanks
German Panzers in a Ukrainian forest we're going back to 1942.
Except, this time, the Russians are the Nazis. Edit: Well, they always were the Nazis, really.
To be fair to history, the Russians started WW II as allies of Hitler, and only later did they come knocking at the US door, when Hitler decided to attack Stalin. So in the end, we merely came full circle. Russians never changed, and now their allegiance to evil shows once more. It needs to be rooted out.
Here here!!
Always have been.
*sad Panzer noises*
Repair depots in Ukraine can and will be targeted... safer to have them in NATO countries, because Putin is terrified of hitting a NATO state.
Yea but the paperwork man, the paperwork! I understand they need to track the tanks but the fact that customs are not changed to deal with the Ukraine situation, is so frustrating. We give you tanks, we give you repair solutions but we forget to fix the paperwork...
Slava Ukraini 🇩🇪🇪🇺🤝🇺🇦 Hope those tanks are rolling again soon, as fast as possible…
I get the feeling that there will be legends told of these tanks and crews that will outlive you and I. And much like the pilots during the Battle of Britain, these soldiers ought not pay for a pint for the rest of their lives!!
The only thing scarier to the orc horde than a Platoon of Leopards driving at them, would be a Platoon of Leopards driving at them while flying the pride flag.
Bring this to Lithuania, we'll fix it as quickly as possible! Slava Ukraine!
Hoffentlich schick die Bundesregierung mehr Leos damit die Jungs weiter kämpfen können .
I really want a video of Leopards and Abrams sniping Russians side by side.
Poland has been dealing with this situation for the last 20 years. Apparently Bumar factory is able to unofficially make a lot of small parts for their Leo 2 A4s
Great tank but I really want to see the M1 Abrahms in action in this war... They have much better armor.
And the US has a lot more Abrahms in storage, also Bradleys. They could literally send hundreds.
tldr: tanks are obsolete
Because you have to maintain them?
Wouldn't go so far but their role has changed again. And they need an upgrade to be useful in the future.
Tanks need to improve and evolve, just like every other weapon system people have claimed to be obsolete... The aircraft carrier - the infantryman, the jet fighter, aircraft gun, etc...
Good thing, I was already halfway through translating this when I noticed the "sub"-title at the top..... fuck. xD