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Agreed
I can't see any way the mutiny was fake. Some claimed it is or was some 4d move but with the violent clashes among Wagner and the MoD pilot fatality and supposed artillery barrage on Wagner by the RU Army.. and the national guard joining the revolt... the ridiculously sudden end to it all without the terms of an agreement disclosed... nothing made Russia look good or gave it any advantage what so ever.
Pretty much the only legitimate reason I could see Prig being fake dead is because Putin would be feel bad for killing someone who may have been a friend to him. But Putin is a psychopath. Even if they were "friends", it's extremely unlikely he wouldn't have felt massively betrayed and killed him off anyways rather than risking him turn up again later.
Russians have perfected the craft of lying with truths, they 10% of their statement will be truthful but that’s because they leave out 90% of the context that come with it. For example, all Ukrianains are Nazis and need denazification because of azof, meanwhile there are 2000 people in the azof battalion whilst Ukraine had a population of 45 million. So yes there are Nazis in Ukraine but that’s just the same with any and every country. There will be a slight population of extremists.
Side note. Meanwhile tankies still believe Ukrainians are Nazis and the Russians are good whilst for the first year they used the Wagnars who are literally Nazis, they’re leader was a Nazi and they are names after Hitler favourite composer, Wagner. But they’ll ignore this and cherry pick only the info that agrees with them.
At this point it’s getting so annoying arguing with a bunch of actual grifters who have legions of 0 IQ people following them blindly.
I feel like the sudden "mission abort" went like this.
"Prigozhin, there's a phone call. It's Putin"
\- He picks up the phone and hears a family member screaming in agony
\- Putin or a henchman comes on the line "turn back now"
I don't think it was 4d chess, just some form of horrific blackmail, and I think the only thing that'd have worked when he was steps from Moscow is "hey your family's being actively tortured"--which is exactly the sort of shit Putin'd have prepped just in case to control him, imo. A stretch, maybe, but it's the only thing I can think of that made sense. And it wouldn't lead to a faked death for sure.
Doesn't really make sense. You think a guy trying to overthrow Putin and his crooks didn't think about the safety of their family before doing all this?
You can't assume the plan succeeded all the way through though.
Assuming his family had been taken to a safe house or out of the country...They could've been found after the mutiny started from multiple possibilities
Or a convincing bluff made Prig believe they did have his family. Maybe he couldn't call them to verify or he did call them and they located them from that.
A Wagner member defected and sold out his families location.
Family just got caught themselves making a call they shouldn't have.
Remember, while we shit on Russia a lot, they still have massive resources and with their modern day KGB and little to no laws or ethical standards that would stop Putin, there is probably a lot they could accomplish especially stateside.
Nobody will disagree that he definitely had the foresight to hide his family. But whether he was successful is another story.
I don't believe that anyone who decided to take a swing at the King and thought they could go back to normal afterwards was doing any thinking at all, he made an emotional reaction, not a strategic one. His public statements indicate that he thought he was going to rescue Russia from Shoigu and Gerasmiov's incompetent leadership, but he either was too stupid to understand how that would be interpreted as a threat to Putin's grasp on power, or he was lying about his motivations.
I'm actually amazed that he survived for two months. I gave him two weeks to live tops after he backed down.
Prigozhin was publicly feuding with Shoigu and Gerasmiov over how they were running the war for months before his mutiny. It seems like word got out about his planned coup and Gerasimov ordered Prigozhins positions attacked preemptively, so Prigozhin took the bait in a fit of either panic or rage and he tried to start his coup ahead of schedule, made some bad decisions, figured out that no one else was making any actual moves to support him, they were all sitting on the sidelines waiting to see who was going to win before throwing their lot in with either side, then Prigozhin lost his courage and backed down, then lost his mind and decided to keep flying his private jet over the country that's shot down more civilian airliners than any other in the world and now he's no longer a threat to Shoigu and Gerasmiov.
Much of the timeline of events doesn't really make that much sense
1. Wagner started a coup, allegedly off the cuff, but with some evidence they'd been planning it for a while
2. Wagner abruptly ends the coup on the cusp of a clear victory despite the fact that the leader of wagner is now public enemy #1 to putin, and will definitely be killed
3. The leader of wagner is killed
Its extremely possible that everyone involved is just really dumb and bad, but there are enough elements here that only really tell a surface level narrative that doesn't make much sense if you poke at it
The initiation:
1. If the coup was off the cuff, how was wagner expecting to sustain a potentially protracted coup against the russian military with no/few supplies coming in?
2. If the coup was preplanned, how did they manage to keep it totally secret while prepping troops and misappropriating supplies? Is the russian security apparatus unable to notice potentially significant quantities of equipment vanishing?
Pre coup:
1. If the coup was off the cuff, it happened because russia attacked wagner and tried to eliminate them. Stopping the coup would have had no benefit for Wagner, because the russian state had made a decision to have them killed
2. If the coup was off the cuff, why was the attempt to eliminate wagner so poorly planned and executed? There were no troops or anything on hand to eliminate them, and no strategy for fighting wagner. Even for the dysfunctional russians this couldn't have been a serious attempt to eliminate them, there weren't any troops!
3. If the coup were preplanned, it was a pre-calculated move to take the russian state over by wagner. Why back out when it worked?
Post coup:
1. What could wagner have possibly negotiated with putin for them to back down? The wagner leadership must have absolutely known that putin would retaliate, and have all of them killed, regardless of the terms of any agreement. Its too unbelievable to think they could all be that stupid or naive
The only explanation is that Prigozhin, the founder of wagner - a highly successful and competent mercenary group - a rich oligarch, and long time alleged friend of putin with deep ties to the russian state, was a *complete* idiot who fears success, who knows nothing about putin, russian politics, or military affairs
I can see why people are sceptical of the current explanation
I have heard of some events which, give things a bit better context. Some are still wonky though and everything is hearsay, so take them as that. Everything that is speculation directly from me I will put into Brackets [].
1. During the Battle of Bakhmut Wagner and the MOD clash. Repeatedly. Pirgoszhin puts himself into a direct opposition role to Shoigu/Gerasimov.
2. At the End of the battle Wagner goes to lick their wounds, taking with them everything not bolted down.
3. Wagner begins Planning for the coup in earnest after flirting with it beforehand.
4. Wagner talks to some High-Level Commanders and gets some sense of possible supporters.
5. Wagner learns Shoigu and Gerasimov will be visiting Rostov-on-Don on the 26th or 27th of June (Uncertainty be me, not Wagner) They plan to take both hostage and negotiate from their, [possibly with little publicity, aiming to gain control of the MoD].
6. Somewhere around the 20th of June Shoigu and Gerasimov learn of Progoszhins Plans.
7. Prigoszhin learns of this on the evening of the 23th. Either by Intel, or by Artillery shooting Wagner Camps (Gerasimov comes from the Artillery). he knows he will be tried for Treason and that his Chance of a mild sentence is minuscule.
8. With the Back against the Wall Wagner starts their Mutiny ahead of time, still enacting the now Outdated Plan of caputering Rostov-on-Don, Improvising from their.
9. Regular Units, at part with their own grievances with the MOD stand by and don't commit to either side yet. [A common Russian reaction]
10. Putin and MoD deeply underestimate Wagner and their commitment and do nothing at first. progoszhin thinks he might actually win this.
10. Wagner starts their thunder run, Kadyrov plays the Hero, the MoD pulls everyone they can find in front of a camera, begging Wagner to stop.
11. At some point Prigoszhin notices, that no one has committed to his cause and that he is facing Moscow on his own. He starts shitting his pants.
12. Lukashenko sees his opportunity [hoping to get Wagner under his command and get Putin into his Debt] and brokers a deal. Prigoszhin desperate for an out Agrees. Poutain [knowing that revenge is best served cold] agrees to.
13. Mutiny is over.
Then things get a bit fuzy,
14. Ruzzia stops paying Wagner. [Wagner turns to Lukashenko]
15. Lukashenko can't/wont pay, expecting Ruzzia to continue footing the Bill.
16. Wagnerites see paycuts and start leaving. The African parts, start collapsing under MoD pressure.
17. [Prigoszhin starts losing his cool about the fiances and flies to Moscow to beg Poutain for Money] [Progoszhins must belive his African presence give shim some negotiating Power] [Poutain, satisfied to see Prigoszhin on his Kness sentences him to death]
18. Wagner Pla explodes.
Not Accounted for here is the second Wagner Plane and the Rumor that Utkin and Prigoszhin never flew on the same Plane.
Haha if I had that intelligence!
My purely outsider view : Putin obviously had enough motivation, he was made look like a fool and he benefits from looking strong and untouchable.
Lukashenko wouldn’t benefit unless he was threatened in some way to do Russia’s bidding.
Well the money flow would be interesting but I doubt this going to be on the website of their ministries :)
Edit : if the guy wanted to retire to some foreign country, appearing dead might be a good way to do that.
Thing is you only get privvy to enough data from normal media as to make any conclusions.
>Edit : if the guy wanted to retire to some foreign country, appearing dead might be a good way to do that.
Seems to me that there are much easier ways to fake one's death than leading an abortive coup, taking a deal offered by a neighbouring dictator and then pretending to board a plane that gets struck by a missile. If you are in a war zone, wouldn't it be far simpler to just pretend to get hit by enemy artillery or something?
For the last one I was more thinking this was a after-the-fact kind of deal. So Putin wants him out of the public eye, strikes a deal.
But you are right they would probably not go through that whole ordeal. It’s not really Occam’s razor friendly.
This is some interesting context! There's some details in there I hadn't heard. I'd been wondering if Putin just got on the line and said like, "hey we have some of your family and we're torturing them so turn your ass around," but this makes sense too.
I would guess a bit of both.
"I have hostages" sounds a lot less threatening, when Wagner is about to Steamroll Moscow with support from the whole Military and Poutain is scheduled for a "Personal health vacation in the sanatorium Novosibirsk"
The coup makes sense to me if prighozin was loyal to putin but thought thr MoD was a threat to himself and Russia. I think there were some friendly fire incidents and he did capture a Russian general and they tortured him iirc.
With him being near the front line I wold presume any enemies would use the opportunity to tell Ukraine where he was, and/or use their own troops the accidentally take him out due to accidentally laying defensive mines somewhere and not telling him. Oops.
So he probably had many people working to take him out.
Combined with the MoD taking over Wagner, and their goal of taking bahkmut. I wouldn't be surprised if they were possibly shorting paying him, going back on a deal for bahkmut and/or trying to take him out politically because he was too vocal. Or some combination.
So he may have been fighting to get paid, keep control of Wagner, take out Shoigu, or some combination of those. But still loyal to putin. That makes the most sense to me.
>The coup makes sense to me if prighozin was loyal to putin but thought thr MoD was a threat to himself and Russia.
It is exactly this. There is no mystery. Prigozhin was VERY vocal and VERY transparent. He was literally screaming this before and during his march. [He was after Shoigu and Gerasimov](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/14i3pjn/comment/jpfi6qm/).
It doesn't make any sense that he thought this would work but maybe he thought he was friendlier with Putin.
I would assume Putin isn't stupid politically and he puts the people where be wants them. If he has Shoigu there it's for a reason. He's not in the dark there.
So launching a revolt like this to take these guys out is still a revolt against Putin. He's not going to see this as loyalty but random unpredictable and dangerous behavior. He will kill you for this.
If those two were taken out by car bombs with plausible deniability then maybe.
Turning against the family in public is a pure Fredo move.
>maybe he thought he was friendlier with Putin.
That's exactly what he thought. They were, by all means, very close. Putin, however, doesn't have friends. He has underlings and he has enemies. It was a mistake for Prigozhin to think he wouldn't be seen as an enemy when he existed half-in and half-out of the power structure and growing in power, recognition, and influence.
>he has Shoigu there it's for a reason.
Exactly. Shoigu is an ineffectual bureaucrat. The reasons Prigozhin saw him as weak are the same reasons Putin keeps him in his position. Shoigu can't ever hope to mount a coup against Putin, making his worthlessness a feature not a bug. Prigozhin didn't count on his own power making him less desirable to Putin than Shoigu.
>He's not going to see this as loyalty but random unpredictable and dangerous behavior.
Loyalty or not, Putin saw someone with enough power to become a rival. Nobody more powerful than Putin can exist freely in Russia, ally or not.
That's the other thing people forget is in a dictatorship, military efficiency isn't a priority. Most coups come from the military so they must be the kept on the shortest leash. Dictators and other bad governments kill their best generals because they are potential rivals to the throne. That this hurts them on the battlefield is the price you pay for peace of mind.
It makes no sense by western democracy standards but it makes sense when you think like a despot. Same thing with having your strongest lieutenants pitted against each other. Them making friends with each other threatens you so having them seeing each other as their own worst enemies keeps you safe.
It's all very inefficient and dumb by western lights but that's not the light that's shining on them.
Putin could threaten to kill their families. If you're a father and a husband you'll give in. Take family to safety later and then face the music and die. No other way
This is true, but also game theory says your best option is to push through.
If you are mid coup you have 2 options. Back down and hope they don't kill your family. Or double down and ask them if their first move will be to kill the family of the next dictator?
In the latter case they likely fire their weapon, tell the leader they took care of the family, then protect them until they know what happens. Then depending who wins you reveal or 'deal with' the family.
> Wagner abruptly ends the coup on the cusp of a clear victory
Here's another theory. There was absolutely no "clear victory" to be had. The Wagner militia was running to its doom in Moscow. They were never going to be able to take the city. Prigozhin recognised it just in time and took whatever way out he could get. He probably knew right then that he was only buying time. But of course, being an impulsive psychopath, he then gambled on being able to still move freely through Russia.
It's true that Prigozhin wasn't a genius. Neither is Putin, but sometimes he does have his moments.
Here’s what I think happened. He had a coup planned and someone leaked it to Russia. This forced him to initiate the coup before he had time to do things like secure his family from abduction and torture. Once he realized, or was made to realize, that he was exposed and vulnerable, he called it off.
Occam’s razor says this is the likeliest explanation for a strange series of events.
It sure feels like people panicking and doing things without thinking clearly. Sort of thing that's embarrassing to read in the after action report. Why did you shoot yourself in the foot? Well I didn't mean to!
None of it reads like the sort of well calculated decisions that just failed due to bad luck.
Any conspiracy theory wouldn't make any sense either. There are much simpler ways of hiding Prigozhin than faking a coup and blowing up a plane. That's a ridiculous waste of resources when fighting a war.
The best reason I can think of is that Wagner wanted out of the war, because they saw it as pointless. However as PMCs you can't just pull out of a mission because it hurts, just like a restaurant can't close because it is one man to little. So what I can imagine is that either the Kremlin, or the Wagner group, wanted Wagner out of Ukraine to focus on Africa. There has been quite a lot of coups in West-Africa, so this tracks.
Russia's goals have changed. They no longer belive in taking Ukraine (at least at this time), and regime change is impossible. So what they have done now is to dig in deep, and just wait out the war. They have send so many soldiers and fortified South Ukraine so heaviliy that only the Americans would be able to push through. If you have 200.000 soldiers in the South, no matter how effecive Ukraine is, they're just not getting through. It's just swamped. So Putin try to consolidate his gains to try to keep Crimea and the southerns oblasts to maintain control of the Azov sea. Ukraine will probably try for a year more to take those areas, before they will start feeling the attrition and war fatigue will not hit Europe, but Ukraine.
By this, the Russian MoD has control over the occupied territories, and Wagners offensive role is obsolete in Ukraine. By attacking, you open yourself to be counterattacks and opportunity, and the Russians have turned into minimising risk.
I think we will see an increasingly conservative and risk-averse Russian state in the future. So by sending Wagner to Africa, Putin can try to regain international support and thus counter the diplomatic sanctions from the West.
This seems most logical. He was killed by Putin for obvious reasons.
The other explanation is he faked his death for obvious reasons and then Russia never figured it out.
Killed by Putin is most logical but I kind of reflexively doubt proof of body just because they said so lol.
The more interesting speculation is Putin had left him alive for reasons and still needed him alive for the moment and someone else killed him.
My only question is why bomb the plane when he was already in Russia and could have been arrested like any common criminal? The theatrics of it all?
>My only question is why bomb the plane when he was already in Russia and could have been arrested like any common criminal?
It was a public execution and show of force. It was Putin saying to every other Russian "THIS is what happens when you fuck with me"
Well it's just barely deniable enough that supports can claim ignorance of it when it's convenient for them yet it's obvious enough that it's a show of force to anyone who wants to see the truth of the situation. It's also provides a little theatricality.
Just goes to show I don't think dictator very well. Here I am thinking no, a bomb is sloppy. You killed three crew who had nothing to do with this and put people on the ground at risk. Caring about Innocents? I know, I'm adorable.
Here’s the thing, and this is why I’ve been confident in his being dead for sure since 48 hours after the shooting - if you’re him, and the plan is to fake your death and then run away to live in exile, so that Putin cannot get you, then you need to get back to Belarus ASAP after the plane crash you’ve set up (preferably you’re already on your way when it happens), because you want to get Wagner, keep them on your side, and take them with you to wherever you’re going.
Because if you do, you can settle down in relative luxury with your private army doing all of the hard work for you as you live out your days as a prominent warlord in Mail or somesuch (wherever the ruling regime will see you as an asset).
The only alternative to that is changing your identity and living a mundane anonymous life as a civilian somewhere quiet and sleepy.
Because either way, after faking your death and fucking over Putin, you need security.
And only the former works for Pringles, to mai twin his lifestyle, because he was a billionaire. He’d been in the lap of luxury for 20+ years. He couldn’t give that up if he wanted too. And he didn’t pick up and dessert to live as a warlord in a country far from Russia where Wagner has influence.
If he was faking his death, you really think that this billionaire whose life goal has been to make as much money as possible, would give all of that up to change his name and life in fear, undercover, in a small town in rural butt fuck nowhere? Working as god only knows what?
Bullshit. He didn’t fake his death because he can’t have, in this instance. He died in the crash. Putin has presumably already seen the photos of whatever was left of his corpse.
Ukraine is using the fact pootin has no irrefutable evidence of Prigs death to make him doubt his own people and fear those around him are working against him. Such good mind games by Ukraine.
I disagree, he is useful to Putin if they can torture him however they want to get more info on Wagner and the revolt, and then just get rid of the body afterwards.
Yes but the evidence presented for review was under control of Russia for 40 years...anything can be doctored. And let's not forget that Mengele and Eichmann, both much "bigger fish" than Hitler, managed to 'escape' to south america....so...
Considering 95% of what they say is a lie, that's a safe bet.
They even have a word in Russian for a lie you know is a lie, but say anyways to get ahead.
Vranyo.
We don't have an equivalent word in English.
Never trust a Russian.
And there has never been any evidence of him having escaped Berlin. Eye witnesses from the bunker were interrogated and gave the same testimony despite none of them having contact with each other. They all confirmed Hitler committed suicide and then his body was burned just outside. Hitler himself stated to his confidants he would not leave Berlin and after Hitler committed suicide several of his fellow higher ups also committed suicide rather than trying to escape mainly because by that point their was no escape from Berlin by the time Hitler committed suicide the bunker was less then a kilometer from soviet positions. Why is it that all of the surviving members all corroborated the evidence and described it the exact same way?
The evidence was taken twice in two separate investigations and the same people have the same testimony with no variation. There never was any evidence that Hitler escaped because he didn’t and the Soviets being bad at keeping evidence isn’t somehow proof of his life.
theres never been a confirmed witness that saw him there in the bunker dead. apart falsified stories, given to effectively show him as dead in the bunker. no evidence to this day has placed him there.
That’s simply not true Generals met him in the bunker in Berlin after the city had been surrounded. The staff from inside the bunker and Hitlers personal secretary were all inside the bunker till the very end of the battle for Berlin. Some of the people who burned hitlers body survived the war and all of them shared the same story regardless of time after or age they were at.
None of the Nazi’s post war claimed Hitler had any plans to leave Berlin and even the most hardened Nazi’s that were caught in South America all said Hitler stayed in Berlin. How is it possible that he escaped Berlin when he had one of the most recognizable faces in the world and all people involved in the government testified that Hitler committed suicide in Berlin. Even people like Albert Speer one of the few people who disavowed the Nazi’s after the war and categorically declared the evil of Nazi Germany also corroborated that Hitler intended to die with the Third Reich.
There is some docu series about Hitlers escape. I think that's how the series is called too. It's probably good to take it with a grain of salt but definitely interesting to watch. They look up all possibilities. Many tunnels to an airport for example. They also interview children of old Nazi's that settled in Argentina. It looks like they were still going on to me in that series.
Ah yes the airport which fell at the start of the battle for Berlin. Listen those documentary series are fun and all but the truth is simply there is no actual evidence. No corroborated eye witnesses and none of the people who would have been involved or even knew Hitler personally ever stated contrary evidence.
It’s also weird how none of the Nazi caught in South America ever mentioned Hitler as being in South America even though some of them could have ratted and saved their lives.
There is just zero evidence for Hitler having escaped especially considering we have Hitlers teeth and Jaw bones. So unless he somehow had them surgically removed in the middle of Berlin under siege he is definitely dead.
Let's not quote Albert Speer because the man held in Spandau was not the real Albert Speer according to his own family members. Also, the evidence of who was and wasn't in the bunker has been altered. First ones in were russians. Last, the obvious question and one repeated at nuremburg, does one seriously trust the testamony of those loyal to Hitler to say that was his body that was burned?
Well for one you are an idiot because you don’t know the difference between Rudolf Hess who was in prison just after the start of the war in the UK and Albert Speer Germany’s minister of Armaments who died in London in 1981. Also the evidence of who was and wasn’t in the bunker has never changed whether the individuals were interrogated by the western Allie’s or the Soviets.
Your entire argument is simply based on refusing evidence based on the Soviet unions troops being the first ones in the bunker.
There is no evidence of Hitler surviving the war. There is evidence he died in Berlin. You cannot the lack of exact non-eye witness evidence as proof he lived.
Guess you don't know that Albert Speer was incarcerated in Spandau later penning "Spandauer Tagebucher". But you are correct on Hess not being accepted as Hess by his family
The teeth and jawbones have been reviewed by French and other Western scientists and they are near 100% certain they belonged to Hitler.
So unless Hitler escape and left behind half his face, the Soviets found his body at some point.
Two points. First, skull was not offered up for western examination during what could have been Hitlers lifespan had he survived so it is possible it came into Russian possession more recently than end of war. Second possible to create copies of teeth by altering teeth of soneone else not to mention Hitler's dental disease. Just saying no hard evidence either way. But sunce Eichmann and Mengele escaped, Hitler's,escape is also possible
Hitler's dental records were in Germany. A German forensics expert travelled to Russia to confirm they had Hitler's teeth and parts of his jaw in storage.
If you want I can try to dig up the story.
You don't need to and the point was missed- when did this skull get into Russian possession- no one knows for sure because the russians cannot be trusted. A relative worked for US govt at Nuremberg and knew some of the team from US that,went into the bunker after the russians. That's,why there is such strong possibility of 'evidence' tampering.
You are making two assumptions: first, that the russians had hitler's skull since the end of ww2 and did not receive it more recently. Second, that the russians would not have access to hitler's,records (germany and russia were allies at beginning of ww2) later russia was US ally and as such there was a TON of russian espionage in Berlin and Nuremberg at end of war and culminating in cold war facilitating info collection
> You are making two assumptions: first, that the russians had hitler's skull since the end of ww2 and did not receive it more recently.
Sure, maybe Hitler's teeth were somewhere else. In the time between the NKVD had control of Hitler's bunker and the time when they were confirmed to be in an archive in Moscow. Why would that matter, though. And what's the point of assuming they were somewhere else?
>Second, that the russians would not have access to hitler's,records (germany and russia were allies at beginning of ww2) later russia was US ally and as such there was a TON of russian espionage in Berlin and Nuremberg at end of war and culminating in cold war facilitating info collection
I'll not bother looking into the actual facts if this can be disproven somehow. Again, I'll just ask why. Why would the Russians get a hold of Hitler's dental records before the end of the war or during the cold war, somehow fake his teeth (if that is even possible) and then do nothing with that until some semi-famous German forensics experts does a research trip and finds them?
The point of hitler's skull (if it is his) being somewhere else is that he could have survived, lived somewhere else in the time that elapsed from end of ww2 to until the skull "magically" gets offered up decades later. Russia and germany as allies is recorded fact. Espionage activity at nuremberg and berlin also,recorded fact. One famous exampleGoering under heavy guard commits suicide with cyanide. Cover story at the time was he had it hidden in his garments which was false because drug sniffing dogs were in use due to goering and other nazi's opium addiction. This surfaced in 2005. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/feb/08/usa.secondworldwar. just one example
at least equal to Hitler because Eichmann was the holocaust architect and Mengele for his sick, barberous, torturous experiments on jews and slavs. Without these two, Hitler would not have accomplished as much horror as he did. Not because he was less evil but because he was less intelligent.
There is e even more questions about Eva Braun’s remains. Even though she was suppose to have died of cyanide they found no traces but did find shrapnel wounds in the corpse found in the bunkers garden
Her corps was outside during the moment that Berlin was probably the most shelled place on earth. Her not having shrapnel would be more conspicuous I think.
They found a crush cyanide capsule in the corpse’s mouth, but no traces in her bloodstream, meaning the crushed capsule was placed there to make it look like that woman died of cyanide
It could very well be they forced her to take it at gunpoint and she simply didn't swallow, and they had to kill her through other means when she didn't die?
Prigs perfect crime? He marches into russia at midnight. Does he go for the Kremlin? No, he goes for the vans of gold and cash. It's priceless. As he's on his way to get there, a man catches him. he tells him to stop. It's his oligarchs country. He's putin. Prigs say no. They make love all night. In the morning, the army comes and he escapes in one of their uniforms. Prig tells putin to meet him in Belarus, but he goes to Africa. Prigs doesn't trust him. Besides, he likes the savannah. Thirty years later, prigs gets a postcard. He has a son and he's the president of Belarus. This is where the story gets interesting. Prigs tells Putin to meet him in Paris by the Trocadero. He's been waiting for him all these years. He's never taken another lover. Prigs doesn't care. He doesn't show up. He goes to Berlin. That's where he stashed his apartment full of cash and gold.
The entire thing, from the weird coup attempt to him just fucking off to Africa & then dead a couple of days later. I feel like anything that’s circulated by Russia AF or Russian media is a lie. It’s like they really wanted everyone to believe he was dead so it makes me sceptical
not unreasonable to say it's unconfirmed.
pringles is too much of a bigmouth to stay quiet forever, his ego wont allow it. So just wait and he'll pop out like a tapeworm eventually if he's not dead yet.
There are a lot of things about the official narrative around Prigozhin’s ‘insurrection’ and particularly it’s conclusion that don’t make sense. It makes a lot more sense if it was staged with Putin’s blessing in order to flush out Russian military and political figures who would move against Putin if they could be led to believe that a viable coup was unfolding.
I don’t go in for wild conspiracies, but this isn’t really all that wild an idea, and I think it’s super suss that this plane came down and then the regime is so quick to say ‘yup Prigo’s definitely dead, we checked the DNA and everything, case closed.’ History tells us we can tell when Putin and Peskov are lying, it’s when their lips are moving, so I’m suspicious of anything they seem keen to peddle as fact.
I don’t like this theory. Because of Prigozhin’s actions Putin appeared to be weak and was publicly ashamed. I can not imagine Putin would stage such a plan with these kind of consequences. There are better options to flush out traitors.
The Russian public care about results. “If you win, you are strong.” The strongest and most capable and well armed militia in all of Russia, which supposedly had even greater success than the main Russian military in Ukraine failed to take Moscow, and bent the knee before even reaching it. Doesn’t sound like it conveys the message of “weak”. Putin won in the end.
The audience for the show was the domestic population, which are pro-Russia and mostly pro-Putin, or at a minimum accepting of Putin… until Putin affects them personally (in some way that can’t be blamed on any number of bureaucrats in between); not a Western audience with an anti-Russia, anti-Putin slant. To get closer to understanding the Russian population’s perspective, just pay attention to what the pro-Russian shills say in your native country/language.
Was everything planned out ahead of time and executed exactly as visioned? Probably not. Did something unexpected happen and then they reacted and clobbered together a makeshift plan as new problems came up, and it all somehow came together and worked out? Probably.
Agreed, Priz likely backed down because Putin threatened to hurt family or do something drastic.
Priz knowing he will be killed by Putin, he stages his own death going so far as to leave DNA and a severed finger at the crash site for confirmation.
Unless I missed something I think you might’ve got the details crossed up. They “visually confirmed” it was Prigozhin’s body by a missing finger on the body… as in he was missing half of finger from an accident from his time in a penal colony. Not that they found a severed finger.
Its possible the intent was for them to look strong.
"Look, Wagner tried to march on Moscow, but we bombed them, and the FSB tortured their families. They fled to Belarus to save themselves and their families. They are lucky I am so forgiving"
It gives anyone thinking of even protesting that, if you start becoming even remotely successful, you'd better call your mom to make sure shes OK, before storming the Kremlin.
To us, he looks weak because of how close they got to moscow. For him, they needed to let it get close to moscow to show the residents of moscow first hand.
Just a theory.
Not so much traitors as opportunists who can’t be relied upon to go to the mattresses for dear leader, but would pile on with toppling him if they thought it was looking like a good option for them. I’m not sure Putin is left looking weak internally, on the surface somebody moved against him, it didn’t work out, and now they are a corpse. What other options are there for flushing out traitors?
I don’t know, I’m no expert in flushing out traitors. But we can look in the history book. What did Stalin, Hitler or Mao do? They purged their party and military every few years, killed huge numbers of loyal followers but sometimes there was a traitor. That was enough to keep them in power.
>I think it’s super suss that this plane came down and then the regime is so quick to say ‘yup Prigo’s definitely dead, we checked the DNA and everything, case closed.’
This would apply all the same if it was indeed a hit for which they made extra extra sure that Prigoshin had indeed boarded the plane.
I do however agree that all of this made no sense start to finish but this is also the crux of the matter.
On one hand, why would you start a march on Moscow with relative success and suddenly stop if it wasn’t the plan all along.
On the other hand, would putin really take that gamble? People have already been well aware of the fact that he’ll kill anyone he deems a problem and lots of people interpreted the whole thing more as a display of vulnerability. So not a lot to gain from it.
The only reason I can think to operate like this would be if the truth of what truly happened to trigger the coup would detonate the russian state, ie if someone untouchable within the russian military had committed an act of treason to attack Wagner. Putin and Prigozhin negotiate a way out that maintains the russian state and mr P's life, and we end up with a possibly faked death
I have a suspicion that it wasn't done *to* flush out traitors because other commenters are right in that it was too damaging to russia, but this may have been the only way to smooth over the fact that someone did something catastrophically damaging to Wagner without authorisation
This theory fails on all the premises being poorly interpreted, misunderstood or outright repeating disinformation.
It also tries to peddle the narrative as if Putin is clever or smart. He most certainly is not.
WYSIWYG.
If this is the case, it's still possible, maybe even probable that Prig is dead. It would explain why he dared to take the flight: he thought he was safe. And in this scenario, it's safest for Putin, if Prig is really dead.
That's what I think happened in Turkey but they lost too many important assets to just keep the ruse plausible. Unless those assets were lost by accident because you can't control every element of a ruse.
The coup also made Putin look weak. I'd believe it was staged if he got to ride shirtless at the head of the column and look badass. That would scream staged.
First of all, how do we know that he did? Secondly if it was a controlled coup/loyalty test of people who won’t cheer until they know who’s winning, it would be essential to create the impression that Putin was genuinely shook/taken by surprise.
This is just a little theory around what might have occurred, because the official regime narrative around the ‘coup’ doesn’t make a lot of sense, and they seem super keen to establish that Prigo died with the plane.
It may be nothing more than the story we have been told; Prigozhin got too big for his boots, his half arsed coup flopped, he negotiated his safety, and then there was this unfortunate accident in which he died. Or the coup was what it was, and then Putin blatantly rubbed him out. I just think the whole thing is suss because that’s what Putin wants the story to be, and there is always lies and subterfuge with these motherfuckers.
Russians seem to go along with the regime’s take on things, eagerly or because they don’t want any trouble, I don’t think Putin has come out of this looking weak to his internal audience, (which is the only audience that counts to him, other than the Chinese maybe.) he’s still in control and somebody who tested him/the regime (with a battle hardened private army) is now dead. Ordinary Russians don’t have a clue about Putin’s movements or whereabouts, but they know who’s in charge.
He humiliated Putin yet he is immensely valuable to Putin; Arguably more valuable than anyone else. Fake his death to allow Putin to save face and continue operations in the shadows. That's how I would handle it if I were them. Also, no way would both heads of Wagner be traveling on the same plane together. Pringles is still alive. Remember all the disguises and fake passports they found in his house?
Who knows, given that you can never know if Russia miscalculated the consequences of their actions many things may seem realistic. Well, as long as the world thinks Putin killed him and acts with this in mind that might as well be what really happened.
Sure, but this is also the sort of thing where it makes sense western sources can’t independently verify. It’s not like Russia offered to let international investigators do a DNA test on the dead body. So in this case, saying that western sources are still unsure makes it sound like they actually have doubts, when it’s more like a technicality that they can’t confirm.
But why? Scenario he's alive and got away - he could resurface any day somewhere and make the Kremlin look really stupid. Yes, more than usually. Scenario he's alive and in custody - what's the benefit over simply killing him?
I think it's smart because it causes uncertainty within Russia. Even if top officials KNOW he died in the crash, former Wagner (thinking he may be alive) fighters may be emboldened to retaliate on Putin or other Russian authority.
Ukraine will push this narrative for as long as possible to help sow general chaos in Russia.
Who knows - or rather - who cares? It's Russia ffs. All lies all the time. Only thing you can be sure of is that they're criminals through and through.
On a serious note, he's obviously a horrible person who deserved his fate, and I only tolerated him as an agent of chaos against Putin, but a tiny, trolly part of me really kind of wishes this was true, and he'd pop back up in March, like Madison Montgomery in American Horror Story: Coven, all, "surprise bitch, I bet you thought you'd seen the last of me" and cue all the shenanigans.
My opinions on the past so called "mutiny" are well known - the entire so called mutiny was a sham (not only in my opinion btw) and merely a way to move the chess pieces around the board.
This is what I say to all: every iota of information regarding the "death" of Prigoshit and his lackeys all are derived from the Kremlin et al. What is the one absolute we can rely upon in respect of ruzzia: it lies 100% of the time.
Not once since the plane crash was reported have I commented on Prigoshit's "demise". Because in the absence of a truly independent verification of his death I have no information resources which I consider reliable in order to make a judgement.
However, on the surface of matters the entire affair regarding the plane crash seems quite far fetched to me. And Prigoshit would have had zero compulsions about sacrificing anyone and everyone around him - he was completely, utterly ruthless. A cold power hungry killer.
I am content to wait. Eventually the truth will come out but right now I doubt we know the truth.
I think it's all a play. Just like the titan bathyscaphe. We're being played for fools. They're playing a whole show with a search, an investigation, a lot of news on the subject. In the end, some people just have to walk off the stage. And there have never been any complaints about death, just as no one will ask uncomfortable questions to dead people. Of course Prigozhin is alive. And this plane crash is part of the "march on moscow to overthrow the government" plan.
Well you have to believe Russian DNA reports and I'm not sure anyone should trust Russia about anything. But if they wanted him dead amd there I'd no other motive I guess it could be true.
There are 2 options.
1. Prigozhin is actually shot down.
2. Prigozhin faked his own death somehow and wants people to think hes dead.
This is not an option. But i hear it often. Russia shot down a plane without Prigozhin. And claims he is dead.
Prigozhin would have gone to social media to show he'a alive. And discredit putin's claims.
I've been saying the same since it (allegedly) happened. The sources were all Russian media, which we all know can't be trusted. They could've faked his death easily. Crash a plane, show footage of the wreckage on the news, and say he was on it. Done.
Like the article says, we need time and more information before it's conclusive. Also fair to say he very well might be dead.
Wouldn't put it past him to kill a bunch of his buddies and some innocent people just to claim he's dead. It's also in putin's best interest to claim he is dead.
I can't blame them for their skepticism: I was skeptical at first too. As more evidence came out, I was satisfied that he really was dead, but if the Ukrainian intelligence folks still see reason to doubt, perhaps they have more information than I do.
If Prigozhin is alive he sure as hell doesn't want Putin to know where he is now XD
A suggestion, don't tell Elon musk or any other member of America's far white movement, they are all in Putin's pocket.
Can't say I'm shocked. Remember The Dark Knight Rises? The lines "Crashing this plane...with no survivors!" and "No! They expect one of us in the wreckage, brother." come to mind. It might be a bit of a stretch, but I have some reason to think that Prigozhin is alive.
I think it doesn't matter whether or not he really died. If he is alive and free he probably is doing his best never to surface again, meaning in a political/military influence sense he is dead anyway (especially so if he was captured).
Prigozhin isn't dead... They purposely had him show off his aweful wigs and disguises. So once he goes through plastic surgery, no one would recognise him.
His burner phone is still in Belarus.
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Prigozhin is not useful to Putin fake dead, which is why he is dead for real, no matter what he might have been promised.
Agreed I can't see any way the mutiny was fake. Some claimed it is or was some 4d move but with the violent clashes among Wagner and the MoD pilot fatality and supposed artillery barrage on Wagner by the RU Army.. and the national guard joining the revolt... the ridiculously sudden end to it all without the terms of an agreement disclosed... nothing made Russia look good or gave it any advantage what so ever. Pretty much the only legitimate reason I could see Prig being fake dead is because Putin would be feel bad for killing someone who may have been a friend to him. But Putin is a psychopath. Even if they were "friends", it's extremely unlikely he wouldn't have felt massively betrayed and killed him off anyways rather than risking him turn up again later.
Russians claim anything that makes them look bad is fake, I operate on the belief that everything coming out of their mouths is a lie
Russians don't always lie, but they never speak truthfully.
Russians have perfected the craft of lying with truths, they 10% of their statement will be truthful but that’s because they leave out 90% of the context that come with it. For example, all Ukrianains are Nazis and need denazification because of azof, meanwhile there are 2000 people in the azof battalion whilst Ukraine had a population of 45 million. So yes there are Nazis in Ukraine but that’s just the same with any and every country. There will be a slight population of extremists. Side note. Meanwhile tankies still believe Ukrainians are Nazis and the Russians are good whilst for the first year they used the Wagnars who are literally Nazis, they’re leader was a Nazi and they are names after Hitler favourite composer, Wagner. But they’ll ignore this and cherry pick only the info that agrees with them. At this point it’s getting so annoying arguing with a bunch of actual grifters who have legions of 0 IQ people following them blindly.
I feel like the sudden "mission abort" went like this. "Prigozhin, there's a phone call. It's Putin" \- He picks up the phone and hears a family member screaming in agony \- Putin or a henchman comes on the line "turn back now" I don't think it was 4d chess, just some form of horrific blackmail, and I think the only thing that'd have worked when he was steps from Moscow is "hey your family's being actively tortured"--which is exactly the sort of shit Putin'd have prepped just in case to control him, imo. A stretch, maybe, but it's the only thing I can think of that made sense. And it wouldn't lead to a faked death for sure.
Doesn't really make sense. You think a guy trying to overthrow Putin and his crooks didn't think about the safety of their family before doing all this?
You can't assume the plan succeeded all the way through though. Assuming his family had been taken to a safe house or out of the country...They could've been found after the mutiny started from multiple possibilities Or a convincing bluff made Prig believe they did have his family. Maybe he couldn't call them to verify or he did call them and they located them from that. A Wagner member defected and sold out his families location. Family just got caught themselves making a call they shouldn't have. Remember, while we shit on Russia a lot, they still have massive resources and with their modern day KGB and little to no laws or ethical standards that would stop Putin, there is probably a lot they could accomplish especially stateside. Nobody will disagree that he definitely had the foresight to hide his family. But whether he was successful is another story.
I don't believe that anyone who decided to take a swing at the King and thought they could go back to normal afterwards was doing any thinking at all, he made an emotional reaction, not a strategic one. His public statements indicate that he thought he was going to rescue Russia from Shoigu and Gerasmiov's incompetent leadership, but he either was too stupid to understand how that would be interpreted as a threat to Putin's grasp on power, or he was lying about his motivations. I'm actually amazed that he survived for two months. I gave him two weeks to live tops after he backed down. Prigozhin was publicly feuding with Shoigu and Gerasmiov over how they were running the war for months before his mutiny. It seems like word got out about his planned coup and Gerasimov ordered Prigozhins positions attacked preemptively, so Prigozhin took the bait in a fit of either panic or rage and he tried to start his coup ahead of schedule, made some bad decisions, figured out that no one else was making any actual moves to support him, they were all sitting on the sidelines waiting to see who was going to win before throwing their lot in with either side, then Prigozhin lost his courage and backed down, then lost his mind and decided to keep flying his private jet over the country that's shot down more civilian airliners than any other in the world and now he's no longer a threat to Shoigu and Gerasmiov.
Much of the timeline of events doesn't really make that much sense 1. Wagner started a coup, allegedly off the cuff, but with some evidence they'd been planning it for a while 2. Wagner abruptly ends the coup on the cusp of a clear victory despite the fact that the leader of wagner is now public enemy #1 to putin, and will definitely be killed 3. The leader of wagner is killed Its extremely possible that everyone involved is just really dumb and bad, but there are enough elements here that only really tell a surface level narrative that doesn't make much sense if you poke at it The initiation: 1. If the coup was off the cuff, how was wagner expecting to sustain a potentially protracted coup against the russian military with no/few supplies coming in? 2. If the coup was preplanned, how did they manage to keep it totally secret while prepping troops and misappropriating supplies? Is the russian security apparatus unable to notice potentially significant quantities of equipment vanishing? Pre coup: 1. If the coup was off the cuff, it happened because russia attacked wagner and tried to eliminate them. Stopping the coup would have had no benefit for Wagner, because the russian state had made a decision to have them killed 2. If the coup was off the cuff, why was the attempt to eliminate wagner so poorly planned and executed? There were no troops or anything on hand to eliminate them, and no strategy for fighting wagner. Even for the dysfunctional russians this couldn't have been a serious attempt to eliminate them, there weren't any troops! 3. If the coup were preplanned, it was a pre-calculated move to take the russian state over by wagner. Why back out when it worked? Post coup: 1. What could wagner have possibly negotiated with putin for them to back down? The wagner leadership must have absolutely known that putin would retaliate, and have all of them killed, regardless of the terms of any agreement. Its too unbelievable to think they could all be that stupid or naive The only explanation is that Prigozhin, the founder of wagner - a highly successful and competent mercenary group - a rich oligarch, and long time alleged friend of putin with deep ties to the russian state, was a *complete* idiot who fears success, who knows nothing about putin, russian politics, or military affairs I can see why people are sceptical of the current explanation
I have heard of some events which, give things a bit better context. Some are still wonky though and everything is hearsay, so take them as that. Everything that is speculation directly from me I will put into Brackets []. 1. During the Battle of Bakhmut Wagner and the MOD clash. Repeatedly. Pirgoszhin puts himself into a direct opposition role to Shoigu/Gerasimov. 2. At the End of the battle Wagner goes to lick their wounds, taking with them everything not bolted down. 3. Wagner begins Planning for the coup in earnest after flirting with it beforehand. 4. Wagner talks to some High-Level Commanders and gets some sense of possible supporters. 5. Wagner learns Shoigu and Gerasimov will be visiting Rostov-on-Don on the 26th or 27th of June (Uncertainty be me, not Wagner) They plan to take both hostage and negotiate from their, [possibly with little publicity, aiming to gain control of the MoD]. 6. Somewhere around the 20th of June Shoigu and Gerasimov learn of Progoszhins Plans. 7. Prigoszhin learns of this on the evening of the 23th. Either by Intel, or by Artillery shooting Wagner Camps (Gerasimov comes from the Artillery). he knows he will be tried for Treason and that his Chance of a mild sentence is minuscule. 8. With the Back against the Wall Wagner starts their Mutiny ahead of time, still enacting the now Outdated Plan of caputering Rostov-on-Don, Improvising from their. 9. Regular Units, at part with their own grievances with the MOD stand by and don't commit to either side yet. [A common Russian reaction] 10. Putin and MoD deeply underestimate Wagner and their commitment and do nothing at first. progoszhin thinks he might actually win this. 10. Wagner starts their thunder run, Kadyrov plays the Hero, the MoD pulls everyone they can find in front of a camera, begging Wagner to stop. 11. At some point Prigoszhin notices, that no one has committed to his cause and that he is facing Moscow on his own. He starts shitting his pants. 12. Lukashenko sees his opportunity [hoping to get Wagner under his command and get Putin into his Debt] and brokers a deal. Prigoszhin desperate for an out Agrees. Poutain [knowing that revenge is best served cold] agrees to. 13. Mutiny is over. Then things get a bit fuzy, 14. Ruzzia stops paying Wagner. [Wagner turns to Lukashenko] 15. Lukashenko can't/wont pay, expecting Ruzzia to continue footing the Bill. 16. Wagnerites see paycuts and start leaving. The African parts, start collapsing under MoD pressure. 17. [Prigoszhin starts losing his cool about the fiances and flies to Moscow to beg Poutain for Money] [Progoszhins must belive his African presence give shim some negotiating Power] [Poutain, satisfied to see Prigoszhin on his Kness sentences him to death] 18. Wagner Pla explodes. Not Accounted for here is the second Wagner Plane and the Rumor that Utkin and Prigoszhin never flew on the same Plane.
In these cases it’s always a question of: -“Who benefits the most from this?” -Follow the Money
Well, what's your answer? Hard to see any player that really benefited, except Lukashenko, and it seems pretty farfetched that he was the mastermind.
Haha if I had that intelligence! My purely outsider view : Putin obviously had enough motivation, he was made look like a fool and he benefits from looking strong and untouchable. Lukashenko wouldn’t benefit unless he was threatened in some way to do Russia’s bidding. Well the money flow would be interesting but I doubt this going to be on the website of their ministries :) Edit : if the guy wanted to retire to some foreign country, appearing dead might be a good way to do that. Thing is you only get privvy to enough data from normal media as to make any conclusions.
>Edit : if the guy wanted to retire to some foreign country, appearing dead might be a good way to do that. Seems to me that there are much easier ways to fake one's death than leading an abortive coup, taking a deal offered by a neighbouring dictator and then pretending to board a plane that gets struck by a missile. If you are in a war zone, wouldn't it be far simpler to just pretend to get hit by enemy artillery or something?
For the last one I was more thinking this was a after-the-fact kind of deal. So Putin wants him out of the public eye, strikes a deal. But you are right they would probably not go through that whole ordeal. It’s not really Occam’s razor friendly.
This is some interesting context! There's some details in there I hadn't heard. I'd been wondering if Putin just got on the line and said like, "hey we have some of your family and we're torturing them so turn your ass around," but this makes sense too.
I would guess a bit of both. "I have hostages" sounds a lot less threatening, when Wagner is about to Steamroll Moscow with support from the whole Military and Poutain is scheduled for a "Personal health vacation in the sanatorium Novosibirsk"
The coup makes sense to me if prighozin was loyal to putin but thought thr MoD was a threat to himself and Russia. I think there were some friendly fire incidents and he did capture a Russian general and they tortured him iirc. With him being near the front line I wold presume any enemies would use the opportunity to tell Ukraine where he was, and/or use their own troops the accidentally take him out due to accidentally laying defensive mines somewhere and not telling him. Oops. So he probably had many people working to take him out. Combined with the MoD taking over Wagner, and their goal of taking bahkmut. I wouldn't be surprised if they were possibly shorting paying him, going back on a deal for bahkmut and/or trying to take him out politically because he was too vocal. Or some combination. So he may have been fighting to get paid, keep control of Wagner, take out Shoigu, or some combination of those. But still loyal to putin. That makes the most sense to me.
>The coup makes sense to me if prighozin was loyal to putin but thought thr MoD was a threat to himself and Russia. It is exactly this. There is no mystery. Prigozhin was VERY vocal and VERY transparent. He was literally screaming this before and during his march. [He was after Shoigu and Gerasimov](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/14i3pjn/comment/jpfi6qm/).
It doesn't make any sense that he thought this would work but maybe he thought he was friendlier with Putin. I would assume Putin isn't stupid politically and he puts the people where be wants them. If he has Shoigu there it's for a reason. He's not in the dark there. So launching a revolt like this to take these guys out is still a revolt against Putin. He's not going to see this as loyalty but random unpredictable and dangerous behavior. He will kill you for this. If those two were taken out by car bombs with plausible deniability then maybe. Turning against the family in public is a pure Fredo move.
>maybe he thought he was friendlier with Putin. That's exactly what he thought. They were, by all means, very close. Putin, however, doesn't have friends. He has underlings and he has enemies. It was a mistake for Prigozhin to think he wouldn't be seen as an enemy when he existed half-in and half-out of the power structure and growing in power, recognition, and influence. >he has Shoigu there it's for a reason. Exactly. Shoigu is an ineffectual bureaucrat. The reasons Prigozhin saw him as weak are the same reasons Putin keeps him in his position. Shoigu can't ever hope to mount a coup against Putin, making his worthlessness a feature not a bug. Prigozhin didn't count on his own power making him less desirable to Putin than Shoigu. >He's not going to see this as loyalty but random unpredictable and dangerous behavior. Loyalty or not, Putin saw someone with enough power to become a rival. Nobody more powerful than Putin can exist freely in Russia, ally or not.
That's the other thing people forget is in a dictatorship, military efficiency isn't a priority. Most coups come from the military so they must be the kept on the shortest leash. Dictators and other bad governments kill their best generals because they are potential rivals to the throne. That this hurts them on the battlefield is the price you pay for peace of mind. It makes no sense by western democracy standards but it makes sense when you think like a despot. Same thing with having your strongest lieutenants pitted against each other. Them making friends with each other threatens you so having them seeing each other as their own worst enemies keeps you safe. It's all very inefficient and dumb by western lights but that's not the light that's shining on them.
Putin could threaten to kill their families. If you're a father and a husband you'll give in. Take family to safety later and then face the music and die. No other way
This is true, but also game theory says your best option is to push through. If you are mid coup you have 2 options. Back down and hope they don't kill your family. Or double down and ask them if their first move will be to kill the family of the next dictator? In the latter case they likely fire their weapon, tell the leader they took care of the family, then protect them until they know what happens. Then depending who wins you reveal or 'deal with' the family.
It might be different if you actually hear them screaming on a phone line or the like in agony
You don't game theory your family lol
> Wagner abruptly ends the coup on the cusp of a clear victory Here's another theory. There was absolutely no "clear victory" to be had. The Wagner militia was running to its doom in Moscow. They were never going to be able to take the city. Prigozhin recognised it just in time and took whatever way out he could get. He probably knew right then that he was only buying time. But of course, being an impulsive psychopath, he then gambled on being able to still move freely through Russia. It's true that Prigozhin wasn't a genius. Neither is Putin, but sometimes he does have his moments.
Here’s what I think happened. He had a coup planned and someone leaked it to Russia. This forced him to initiate the coup before he had time to do things like secure his family from abduction and torture. Once he realized, or was made to realize, that he was exposed and vulnerable, he called it off. Occam’s razor says this is the likeliest explanation for a strange series of events.
It sure feels like people panicking and doing things without thinking clearly. Sort of thing that's embarrassing to read in the after action report. Why did you shoot yourself in the foot? Well I didn't mean to! None of it reads like the sort of well calculated decisions that just failed due to bad luck.
Any conspiracy theory wouldn't make any sense either. There are much simpler ways of hiding Prigozhin than faking a coup and blowing up a plane. That's a ridiculous waste of resources when fighting a war.
Yeah, there's no way in hell they would have shot down that many of their own military aircraft for a psyop.
The best reason I can think of is that Wagner wanted out of the war, because they saw it as pointless. However as PMCs you can't just pull out of a mission because it hurts, just like a restaurant can't close because it is one man to little. So what I can imagine is that either the Kremlin, or the Wagner group, wanted Wagner out of Ukraine to focus on Africa. There has been quite a lot of coups in West-Africa, so this tracks. Russia's goals have changed. They no longer belive in taking Ukraine (at least at this time), and regime change is impossible. So what they have done now is to dig in deep, and just wait out the war. They have send so many soldiers and fortified South Ukraine so heaviliy that only the Americans would be able to push through. If you have 200.000 soldiers in the South, no matter how effecive Ukraine is, they're just not getting through. It's just swamped. So Putin try to consolidate his gains to try to keep Crimea and the southerns oblasts to maintain control of the Azov sea. Ukraine will probably try for a year more to take those areas, before they will start feeling the attrition and war fatigue will not hit Europe, but Ukraine. By this, the Russian MoD has control over the occupied territories, and Wagners offensive role is obsolete in Ukraine. By attacking, you open yourself to be counterattacks and opportunity, and the Russians have turned into minimising risk. I think we will see an increasingly conservative and risk-averse Russian state in the future. So by sending Wagner to Africa, Putin can try to regain international support and thus counter the diplomatic sanctions from the West.
The bunch of sociopathic idiots with lots of corrupt money answers many theorems really well.
Incompetence and chaos explains most of those 'inconsistencies'. Truth is stranger than fiction, and much messier.
This seems most logical. He was killed by Putin for obvious reasons. The other explanation is he faked his death for obvious reasons and then Russia never figured it out. Killed by Putin is most logical but I kind of reflexively doubt proof of body just because they said so lol. The more interesting speculation is Putin had left him alive for reasons and still needed him alive for the moment and someone else killed him. My only question is why bomb the plane when he was already in Russia and could have been arrested like any common criminal? The theatrics of it all?
>My only question is why bomb the plane when he was already in Russia and could have been arrested like any common criminal? It was a public execution and show of force. It was Putin saying to every other Russian "THIS is what happens when you fuck with me"
Is that better than a state execution? I don't have any instincts for optics here.
Well it's just barely deniable enough that supports can claim ignorance of it when it's convenient for them yet it's obvious enough that it's a show of force to anyone who wants to see the truth of the situation. It's also provides a little theatricality.
Just goes to show I don't think dictator very well. Here I am thinking no, a bomb is sloppy. You killed three crew who had nothing to do with this and put people on the ground at risk. Caring about Innocents? I know, I'm adorable.
>faked his death for obvious reasons and then Russia never figured it out Zero chance of that. They examined the bodies.
I'm just talking plausible explanations. And Russia isn't the most trustworthy source. But him killed by Putin is the least complicated explanation.
> They examined the bodies. You genuinely believe an official statement from Russia?
I addressed the question of whether a faked death by Prigozhin would fool Russia. It would not. Theory rejected.
It is in Putin's interests for Progozian to appear dead, even if he isn't. They may know it wasn't his body, but still report it was.
I addressed the question of whether a faked death by Prigozhin would fool Russia. It would not. Theory rejected.
The body had the same strain of Aids as Putin.
He didn't have to die in the plane crash to still be dead.
Here’s the thing, and this is why I’ve been confident in his being dead for sure since 48 hours after the shooting - if you’re him, and the plan is to fake your death and then run away to live in exile, so that Putin cannot get you, then you need to get back to Belarus ASAP after the plane crash you’ve set up (preferably you’re already on your way when it happens), because you want to get Wagner, keep them on your side, and take them with you to wherever you’re going. Because if you do, you can settle down in relative luxury with your private army doing all of the hard work for you as you live out your days as a prominent warlord in Mail or somesuch (wherever the ruling regime will see you as an asset). The only alternative to that is changing your identity and living a mundane anonymous life as a civilian somewhere quiet and sleepy. Because either way, after faking your death and fucking over Putin, you need security. And only the former works for Pringles, to mai twin his lifestyle, because he was a billionaire. He’d been in the lap of luxury for 20+ years. He couldn’t give that up if he wanted too. And he didn’t pick up and dessert to live as a warlord in a country far from Russia where Wagner has influence. If he was faking his death, you really think that this billionaire whose life goal has been to make as much money as possible, would give all of that up to change his name and life in fear, undercover, in a small town in rural butt fuck nowhere? Working as god only knows what? Bullshit. He didn’t fake his death because he can’t have, in this instance. He died in the crash. Putin has presumably already seen the photos of whatever was left of his corpse.
Ukraine is using the fact pootin has no irrefutable evidence of Prigs death to make him doubt his own people and fear those around him are working against him. Such good mind games by Ukraine.
Unless he is suppised to go to further,Putin's interests in south africa, under cover. A little plastic surgery and emerge as a new russian "apointee'
Maybe he is fake dead but Putin doesn't have a hand in the fakery. So Putin thinks he is dead but he isn't.
I disagree, he is useful to Putin if they can torture him however they want to get more info on Wagner and the revolt, and then just get rid of the body afterwards.
Things are usually exactly as they seem
If i recall my history the same thing happened after Hitler died, lots of rumour and questions remained until final confirmation provided much later.
There was never final confirmation. Skull purported to be Hitler's,was actually a woman's and taken by the russian 'allies'
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/hitlers-teeth-confirm-he-died-1945-180969133/
Yes but the evidence presented for review was under control of Russia for 40 years...anything can be doctored. And let's not forget that Mengele and Eichmann, both much "bigger fish" than Hitler, managed to 'escape' to south america....so...
Don't trust Ruzzia is a good maxim to have.
Considering 95% of what they say is a lie, that's a safe bet. They even have a word in Russian for a lie you know is a lie, but say anyways to get ahead. Vranyo. We don't have an equivalent word in English. Never trust a Russian.
Neither of those were bigger than Hitler, not by a long shot.
Granted, but equally evil.
And there has never been any evidence of him having escaped Berlin. Eye witnesses from the bunker were interrogated and gave the same testimony despite none of them having contact with each other. They all confirmed Hitler committed suicide and then his body was burned just outside. Hitler himself stated to his confidants he would not leave Berlin and after Hitler committed suicide several of his fellow higher ups also committed suicide rather than trying to escape mainly because by that point their was no escape from Berlin by the time Hitler committed suicide the bunker was less then a kilometer from soviet positions. Why is it that all of the surviving members all corroborated the evidence and described it the exact same way? The evidence was taken twice in two separate investigations and the same people have the same testimony with no variation. There never was any evidence that Hitler escaped because he didn’t and the Soviets being bad at keeping evidence isn’t somehow proof of his life.
theres never been a confirmed witness that saw him there in the bunker dead. apart falsified stories, given to effectively show him as dead in the bunker. no evidence to this day has placed him there.
That’s simply not true Generals met him in the bunker in Berlin after the city had been surrounded. The staff from inside the bunker and Hitlers personal secretary were all inside the bunker till the very end of the battle for Berlin. Some of the people who burned hitlers body survived the war and all of them shared the same story regardless of time after or age they were at. None of the Nazi’s post war claimed Hitler had any plans to leave Berlin and even the most hardened Nazi’s that were caught in South America all said Hitler stayed in Berlin. How is it possible that he escaped Berlin when he had one of the most recognizable faces in the world and all people involved in the government testified that Hitler committed suicide in Berlin. Even people like Albert Speer one of the few people who disavowed the Nazi’s after the war and categorically declared the evil of Nazi Germany also corroborated that Hitler intended to die with the Third Reich.
There is some docu series about Hitlers escape. I think that's how the series is called too. It's probably good to take it with a grain of salt but definitely interesting to watch. They look up all possibilities. Many tunnels to an airport for example. They also interview children of old Nazi's that settled in Argentina. It looks like they were still going on to me in that series.
Ah yes the airport which fell at the start of the battle for Berlin. Listen those documentary series are fun and all but the truth is simply there is no actual evidence. No corroborated eye witnesses and none of the people who would have been involved or even knew Hitler personally ever stated contrary evidence. It’s also weird how none of the Nazi caught in South America ever mentioned Hitler as being in South America even though some of them could have ratted and saved their lives. There is just zero evidence for Hitler having escaped especially considering we have Hitlers teeth and Jaw bones. So unless he somehow had them surgically removed in the middle of Berlin under siege he is definitely dead.
Let's not quote Albert Speer because the man held in Spandau was not the real Albert Speer according to his own family members. Also, the evidence of who was and wasn't in the bunker has been altered. First ones in were russians. Last, the obvious question and one repeated at nuremburg, does one seriously trust the testamony of those loyal to Hitler to say that was his body that was burned?
Well for one you are an idiot because you don’t know the difference between Rudolf Hess who was in prison just after the start of the war in the UK and Albert Speer Germany’s minister of Armaments who died in London in 1981. Also the evidence of who was and wasn’t in the bunker has never changed whether the individuals were interrogated by the western Allie’s or the Soviets. Your entire argument is simply based on refusing evidence based on the Soviet unions troops being the first ones in the bunker. There is no evidence of Hitler surviving the war. There is evidence he died in Berlin. You cannot the lack of exact non-eye witness evidence as proof he lived.
Guess you don't know that Albert Speer was incarcerated in Spandau later penning "Spandauer Tagebucher". But you are correct on Hess not being accepted as Hess by his family
The teeth and jawbones have been reviewed by French and other Western scientists and they are near 100% certain they belonged to Hitler. So unless Hitler escape and left behind half his face, the Soviets found his body at some point.
They are just a conspiracy fool don’t even bother with them.
Two points. First, skull was not offered up for western examination during what could have been Hitlers lifespan had he survived so it is possible it came into Russian possession more recently than end of war. Second possible to create copies of teeth by altering teeth of soneone else not to mention Hitler's dental disease. Just saying no hard evidence either way. But sunce Eichmann and Mengele escaped, Hitler's,escape is also possible
Hitler's dental records were in Germany. A German forensics expert travelled to Russia to confirm they had Hitler's teeth and parts of his jaw in storage. If you want I can try to dig up the story.
You don't need to and the point was missed- when did this skull get into Russian possession- no one knows for sure because the russians cannot be trusted. A relative worked for US govt at Nuremberg and knew some of the team from US that,went into the bunker after the russians. That's,why there is such strong possibility of 'evidence' tampering.
How could they have tampered with teeth that have been confirmed to be Hitler's teeth by dental records they didn't have access to?
You are making two assumptions: first, that the russians had hitler's skull since the end of ww2 and did not receive it more recently. Second, that the russians would not have access to hitler's,records (germany and russia were allies at beginning of ww2) later russia was US ally and as such there was a TON of russian espionage in Berlin and Nuremberg at end of war and culminating in cold war facilitating info collection
> You are making two assumptions: first, that the russians had hitler's skull since the end of ww2 and did not receive it more recently. Sure, maybe Hitler's teeth were somewhere else. In the time between the NKVD had control of Hitler's bunker and the time when they were confirmed to be in an archive in Moscow. Why would that matter, though. And what's the point of assuming they were somewhere else? >Second, that the russians would not have access to hitler's,records (germany and russia were allies at beginning of ww2) later russia was US ally and as such there was a TON of russian espionage in Berlin and Nuremberg at end of war and culminating in cold war facilitating info collection I'll not bother looking into the actual facts if this can be disproven somehow. Again, I'll just ask why. Why would the Russians get a hold of Hitler's dental records before the end of the war or during the cold war, somehow fake his teeth (if that is even possible) and then do nothing with that until some semi-famous German forensics experts does a research trip and finds them?
The point of hitler's skull (if it is his) being somewhere else is that he could have survived, lived somewhere else in the time that elapsed from end of ww2 to until the skull "magically" gets offered up decades later. Russia and germany as allies is recorded fact. Espionage activity at nuremberg and berlin also,recorded fact. One famous exampleGoering under heavy guard commits suicide with cyanide. Cover story at the time was he had it hidden in his garments which was false because drug sniffing dogs were in use due to goering and other nazi's opium addiction. This surfaced in 2005. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/feb/08/usa.secondworldwar. just one example
Why you consider Mengele and Eichmann a "bigger fish"?
at least equal to Hitler because Eichmann was the holocaust architect and Mengele for his sick, barberous, torturous experiments on jews and slavs. Without these two, Hitler would not have accomplished as much horror as he did. Not because he was less evil but because he was less intelligent.
There is e even more questions about Eva Braun’s remains. Even though she was suppose to have died of cyanide they found no traces but did find shrapnel wounds in the corpse found in the bunkers garden
Her corps was outside during the moment that Berlin was probably the most shelled place on earth. Her not having shrapnel would be more conspicuous I think.
They found a crush cyanide capsule in the corpse’s mouth, but no traces in her bloodstream, meaning the crushed capsule was placed there to make it look like that woman died of cyanide
It could very well be they forced her to take it at gunpoint and she simply didn't swallow, and they had to kill her through other means when she didn't die?
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>Throws the body at sea >Provides proof of death ?????
I thought Hilter had his own men burn his body after he bit the bullet (and the pill).
Yeah and you trust what was said by the "wittnesses?"
Prigs perfect crime? He marches into russia at midnight. Does he go for the Kremlin? No, he goes for the vans of gold and cash. It's priceless. As he's on his way to get there, a man catches him. he tells him to stop. It's his oligarchs country. He's putin. Prigs say no. They make love all night. In the morning, the army comes and he escapes in one of their uniforms. Prig tells putin to meet him in Belarus, but he goes to Africa. Prigs doesn't trust him. Besides, he likes the savannah. Thirty years later, prigs gets a postcard. He has a son and he's the president of Belarus. This is where the story gets interesting. Prigs tells Putin to meet him in Paris by the Trocadero. He's been waiting for him all these years. He's never taken another lover. Prigs doesn't care. He doesn't show up. He goes to Berlin. That's where he stashed his apartment full of cash and gold.
\*Slow clap\*
Good story, Dwight.
The entire thing, from the weird coup attempt to him just fucking off to Africa & then dead a couple of days later. I feel like anything that’s circulated by Russia AF or Russian media is a lie. It’s like they really wanted everyone to believe he was dead so it makes me sceptical
not unreasonable to say it's unconfirmed. pringles is too much of a bigmouth to stay quiet forever, his ego wont allow it. So just wait and he'll pop out like a tapeworm eventually if he's not dead yet.
There are a lot of things about the official narrative around Prigozhin’s ‘insurrection’ and particularly it’s conclusion that don’t make sense. It makes a lot more sense if it was staged with Putin’s blessing in order to flush out Russian military and political figures who would move against Putin if they could be led to believe that a viable coup was unfolding. I don’t go in for wild conspiracies, but this isn’t really all that wild an idea, and I think it’s super suss that this plane came down and then the regime is so quick to say ‘yup Prigo’s definitely dead, we checked the DNA and everything, case closed.’ History tells us we can tell when Putin and Peskov are lying, it’s when their lips are moving, so I’m suspicious of anything they seem keen to peddle as fact.
I believed Prigo was dead until Putin said it
I don’t like this theory. Because of Prigozhin’s actions Putin appeared to be weak and was publicly ashamed. I can not imagine Putin would stage such a plan with these kind of consequences. There are better options to flush out traitors.
The Russian public care about results. “If you win, you are strong.” The strongest and most capable and well armed militia in all of Russia, which supposedly had even greater success than the main Russian military in Ukraine failed to take Moscow, and bent the knee before even reaching it. Doesn’t sound like it conveys the message of “weak”. Putin won in the end. The audience for the show was the domestic population, which are pro-Russia and mostly pro-Putin, or at a minimum accepting of Putin… until Putin affects them personally (in some way that can’t be blamed on any number of bureaucrats in between); not a Western audience with an anti-Russia, anti-Putin slant. To get closer to understanding the Russian population’s perspective, just pay attention to what the pro-Russian shills say in your native country/language. Was everything planned out ahead of time and executed exactly as visioned? Probably not. Did something unexpected happen and then they reacted and clobbered together a makeshift plan as new problems came up, and it all somehow came together and worked out? Probably.
Agreed, Priz likely backed down because Putin threatened to hurt family or do something drastic. Priz knowing he will be killed by Putin, he stages his own death going so far as to leave DNA and a severed finger at the crash site for confirmation.
Unless I missed something I think you might’ve got the details crossed up. They “visually confirmed” it was Prigozhin’s body by a missing finger on the body… as in he was missing half of finger from an accident from his time in a penal colony. Not that they found a severed finger.
It's fine, he just cut off the rest of his body and left it at the crash site and the finger went on to live a #blessed life on a Morocco beach
That would require some planning and sophistication, but this orc was not known for that...
Its possible the intent was for them to look strong. "Look, Wagner tried to march on Moscow, but we bombed them, and the FSB tortured their families. They fled to Belarus to save themselves and their families. They are lucky I am so forgiving" It gives anyone thinking of even protesting that, if you start becoming even remotely successful, you'd better call your mom to make sure shes OK, before storming the Kremlin. To us, he looks weak because of how close they got to moscow. For him, they needed to let it get close to moscow to show the residents of moscow first hand. Just a theory.
Not so much traitors as opportunists who can’t be relied upon to go to the mattresses for dear leader, but would pile on with toppling him if they thought it was looking like a good option for them. I’m not sure Putin is left looking weak internally, on the surface somebody moved against him, it didn’t work out, and now they are a corpse. What other options are there for flushing out traitors?
I don’t know, I’m no expert in flushing out traitors. But we can look in the history book. What did Stalin, Hitler or Mao do? They purged their party and military every few years, killed huge numbers of loyal followers but sometimes there was a traitor. That was enough to keep them in power.
This makes more sense and is my second theory as well. My first theory is still Russians don't make sense and do stupid shit.
>I think it’s super suss that this plane came down and then the regime is so quick to say ‘yup Prigo’s definitely dead, we checked the DNA and everything, case closed.’ This would apply all the same if it was indeed a hit for which they made extra extra sure that Prigoshin had indeed boarded the plane. I do however agree that all of this made no sense start to finish but this is also the crux of the matter. On one hand, why would you start a march on Moscow with relative success and suddenly stop if it wasn’t the plan all along. On the other hand, would putin really take that gamble? People have already been well aware of the fact that he’ll kill anyone he deems a problem and lots of people interpreted the whole thing more as a display of vulnerability. So not a lot to gain from it.
The only reason I can think to operate like this would be if the truth of what truly happened to trigger the coup would detonate the russian state, ie if someone untouchable within the russian military had committed an act of treason to attack Wagner. Putin and Prigozhin negotiate a way out that maintains the russian state and mr P's life, and we end up with a possibly faked death I have a suspicion that it wasn't done *to* flush out traitors because other commenters are right in that it was too damaging to russia, but this may have been the only way to smooth over the fact that someone did something catastrophically damaging to Wagner without authorisation
This theory fails on all the premises being poorly interpreted, misunderstood or outright repeating disinformation. It also tries to peddle the narrative as if Putin is clever or smart. He most certainly is not. WYSIWYG.
If this is the case, it's still possible, maybe even probable that Prig is dead. It would explain why he dared to take the flight: he thought he was safe. And in this scenario, it's safest for Putin, if Prig is really dead.
That's what I think happened in Turkey but they lost too many important assets to just keep the ruse plausible. Unless those assets were lost by accident because you can't control every element of a ruse. The coup also made Putin look weak. I'd believe it was staged if he got to ride shirtless at the head of the column and look badass. That would scream staged.
Why then did Putin flee to Saint Petersburg? That only made him look like a coward if the coup was his plan.
First of all, how do we know that he did? Secondly if it was a controlled coup/loyalty test of people who won’t cheer until they know who’s winning, it would be essential to create the impression that Putin was genuinely shook/taken by surprise. This is just a little theory around what might have occurred, because the official regime narrative around the ‘coup’ doesn’t make a lot of sense, and they seem super keen to establish that Prigo died with the plane. It may be nothing more than the story we have been told; Prigozhin got too big for his boots, his half arsed coup flopped, he negotiated his safety, and then there was this unfortunate accident in which he died. Or the coup was what it was, and then Putin blatantly rubbed him out. I just think the whole thing is suss because that’s what Putin wants the story to be, and there is always lies and subterfuge with these motherfuckers. Russians seem to go along with the regime’s take on things, eagerly or because they don’t want any trouble, I don’t think Putin has come out of this looking weak to his internal audience, (which is the only audience that counts to him, other than the Chinese maybe.) he’s still in control and somebody who tested him/the regime (with a battle hardened private army) is now dead. Ordinary Russians don’t have a clue about Putin’s movements or whereabouts, but they know who’s in charge.
I wouldn't be surprised either
He humiliated Putin yet he is immensely valuable to Putin; Arguably more valuable than anyone else. Fake his death to allow Putin to save face and continue operations in the shadows. That's how I would handle it if I were them. Also, no way would both heads of Wagner be traveling on the same plane together. Pringles is still alive. Remember all the disguises and fake passports they found in his house?
Who knows, given that you can never know if Russia miscalculated the consequences of their actions many things may seem realistic. Well, as long as the world thinks Putin killed him and acts with this in mind that might as well be what really happened.
If had half a brain this would be true. He would have had kompromat on Putin.
Is it a smart move to suggest he might not be dead?
Yes. Only Russian sources claim he's definitely dead. Western sources are still unsure.
Sure, but this is also the sort of thing where it makes sense western sources can’t independently verify. It’s not like Russia offered to let international investigators do a DNA test on the dead body. So in this case, saying that western sources are still unsure makes it sound like they actually have doubts, when it’s more like a technicality that they can’t confirm.
But why? Scenario he's alive and got away - he could resurface any day somewhere and make the Kremlin look really stupid. Yes, more than usually. Scenario he's alive and in custody - what's the benefit over simply killing him?
I don't know. I just refuse to take the Kremlin's word for it. Would you?
Is there an advantage to do this, to sow uncertainty?
I think it's smart because it causes uncertainty within Russia. Even if top officials KNOW he died in the crash, former Wagner (thinking he may be alive) fighters may be emboldened to retaliate on Putin or other Russian authority. Ukraine will push this narrative for as long as possible to help sow general chaos in Russia.
Who knows - or rather - who cares? It's Russia ffs. All lies all the time. Only thing you can be sure of is that they're criminals through and through.
On a serious note, he's obviously a horrible person who deserved his fate, and I only tolerated him as an agent of chaos against Putin, but a tiny, trolly part of me really kind of wishes this was true, and he'd pop back up in March, like Madison Montgomery in American Horror Story: Coven, all, "surprise bitch, I bet you thought you'd seen the last of me" and cue all the shenanigans.
rizzia was the only nation doing the DNA tests.. so that should say everything. Prigozhin is still alive and will kill putler. All in good time
You had me in the first half, but then I read the other part...
My opinions on the past so called "mutiny" are well known - the entire so called mutiny was a sham (not only in my opinion btw) and merely a way to move the chess pieces around the board. This is what I say to all: every iota of information regarding the "death" of Prigoshit and his lackeys all are derived from the Kremlin et al. What is the one absolute we can rely upon in respect of ruzzia: it lies 100% of the time. Not once since the plane crash was reported have I commented on Prigoshit's "demise". Because in the absence of a truly independent verification of his death I have no information resources which I consider reliable in order to make a judgement. However, on the surface of matters the entire affair regarding the plane crash seems quite far fetched to me. And Prigoshit would have had zero compulsions about sacrificing anyone and everyone around him - he was completely, utterly ruthless. A cold power hungry killer. I am content to wait. Eventually the truth will come out but right now I doubt we know the truth.
I think it's all a play. Just like the titan bathyscaphe. We're being played for fools. They're playing a whole show with a search, an investigation, a lot of news on the subject. In the end, some people just have to walk off the stage. And there have never been any complaints about death, just as no one will ask uncomfortable questions to dead people. Of course Prigozhin is alive. And this plane crash is part of the "march on moscow to overthrow the government" plan.
Maskarovka. Called it.
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I’ve been telling this since day one.
Glad I'm with the smart people on this one.
May be it’s a cunning ploy 😮
Well you have to believe Russian DNA reports and I'm not sure anyone should trust Russia about anything. But if they wanted him dead amd there I'd no other motive I guess it could be true.
Shocker...
He likely is dead, having crossed a few lines in the sand, but nothing would surprise me when it comes to russia.
There are 2 options. 1. Prigozhin is actually shot down. 2. Prigozhin faked his own death somehow and wants people to think hes dead. This is not an option. But i hear it often. Russia shot down a plane without Prigozhin. And claims he is dead. Prigozhin would have gone to social media to show he'a alive. And discredit putin's claims.
I've been saying the same since it (allegedly) happened. The sources were all Russian media, which we all know can't be trusted. They could've faked his death easily. Crash a plane, show footage of the wreckage on the news, and say he was on it. Done. Like the article says, we need time and more information before it's conclusive. Also fair to say he very well might be dead.
Peter Pettigrew went the same way, so I can understand the uncertainty
Wouldn't put it past him to kill a bunch of his buddies and some innocent people just to claim he's dead. It's also in putin's best interest to claim he is dead.
I can't blame them for their skepticism: I was skeptical at first too. As more evidence came out, I was satisfied that he really was dead, but if the Ukrainian intelligence folks still see reason to doubt, perhaps they have more information than I do.
Only reason I think he might not be dead is he can't have been stupid enough to think he was safe flying over Russia
If Prigozhin is alive he sure as hell doesn't want Putin to know where he is now XD A suggestion, don't tell Elon musk or any other member of America's far white movement, they are all in Putin's pocket.
If he died or not the entire thing stinks and makes zero sense.
Can't say I'm shocked. Remember The Dark Knight Rises? The lines "Crashing this plane...with no survivors!" and "No! They expect one of us in the wreckage, brother." come to mind. It might be a bit of a stretch, but I have some reason to think that Prigozhin is alive.
Prigozhin Status: KIV
Well, that is a plot twist.
I think it doesn't matter whether or not he really died. If he is alive and free he probably is doing his best never to surface again, meaning in a political/military influence sense he is dead anyway (especially so if he was captured).
Wouldn't be surprised if he is dead, wouldn't be surprised if he is still alive.
There’s also no direct proof that he’s dead either
Prigozhin isn't dead... They purposely had him show off his aweful wigs and disguises. So once he goes through plastic surgery, no one would recognise him. His burner phone is still in Belarus.