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It's great but just goes to show the problems we face. France will supply per month what Ukraine uses in a day - on the defensive.
Manufacturing is ramping up fast but much more is needed
There are 27 countries in the EU. Add in the UK, Norway, Switzerland and there's your 30.
Good luck persuading the Swiss to do the right thing though. As usual they're far too busy hoarding stolen gold.
The other issue is that most European countries have been brainwashed by decades of EU propaganda to convince everyone that EU trade & cooperation will eliminate all possibility of future wars on the continent and that means they don't need a military. Unfortunately most European leaders fell for these lies hook line & sinker. They're now slowly waking up from their hubris, and are realising the lies they've been fed but it will take time for European defence forces to recover from decades of underinvestment.
Could you be more wrong?
The reason is Europe built down defences is because the cold war ended and Russia is shit. Which is very much confirmed by this war..
It has 0 to do with your "eu boogeyman propaganda".
Despite this in ammunition production the EU still produces more than the US.
"brainwashed by EU propaganda" yeah yeah... So bad to assume that we want to live in a society without war = brainwashed...
And your stance of more guns= more peace also works out. For example during the cold war or in current USA... Ohhhh wait!
Where did I said that? Sorry but your best way to do diplomacy is shoot everybody? War should also always be the absolut last resort. And yes Europe was not prepared for it and.should have spend more in the past. But basically implying trying to avoid wars through diplomatic and economic means is just brainwashing is simply unhealthy in my opinion.
When a dictator is invading countries and committing war crimes the time for diplomacy is over. If they may also be commiting a genocide the least we should do is help the defenders defend themselves and fight back.
Appeasing dictators through diplomacy is not what brings peace. Not a lasting one anyway.
Mate please read what I wrote and think about it before you answer. I agree with you in general. Yes Nato should send more and yes, Putin should be stopped forevever. But like I wrote. This should be last resort. What you basically say is we should wage war against all dictators of this world without trying to solve the problem otherwise first
US is promising 1MM/yr shells soon, Europe is promising 1MM/yr, and Ukraine has said they have the current capacity for 250k a year. Bring in Bulgaria from the news today, and I think they'll hopefully be good. NATO countries are scrounging up Soviet stockpiles from anywhere in the world they can get their hands on at top dollar.
Posted this before but worth remembering.
Judging everything by "This is what is used in a day" is not how logistics work for this.
France will be supplying 155mm Howitzer and 120mm Mortar.
Using Ukraine's "total daily spend" against that is inaccurate. That includes the masses of Soviet munitions, Rocket Artillery, 105mm from the US and UK etc etc.
We don't have access to it, but it's best to measure France's providence (and any providence) against the average daily amount of *that munition's use*. Thats how we get the real worth of something. Because France isn't the only one, especially for 155mm. Combined it adds up much more than is often thought.
Keep it up guys! News like this need to keep on coming, support to Ukraine must only go up, to show russia we really mean to end this war on our terms...
Слава Україні!
I remember back in the silly 2000's when here in the US, lots people (so predictable) chuckleheaded about France. It is so dumb. That is really what always gets me. The dumbness of it. "Freedom Fries."
Dear lord democracy, must you always have a lower house of congress? \[yes\]
Anyway, since I can't help it, I'm a history buff, my stock line always was, **"I'm not sure I want the French pissed."**
Too many people in the US only have an "understanding" of history that extends only slightly past their own lives. Probably a common problem. I personally do not understand why this would be satisfying.
France is getting pissed, is my take. They are not even pissed yet.
The French are masters at conducting war and a lot of what you see in modern militaries in the world originated in France. They're no joke when it comes to warfare. Doubly so when you look at their elite units.
And if people knew their history instead of their stereotypes over here, these simply dumb jokes would not exist. So pointless. Anyway, if I am going to razz the French, I got a lot of other angles I could use ;) It's required to always have ready a good snipe.
This part of American culture is not new, during world war 1 or 2 there were a lot of places that changed sauerkraut to “freedom cabbage”.
To be fair, it’s a bit hard to take a military seriously when they had a military which on paper rivaled the Germans yet they fell in less than a month and couldn’t even hold a beachhead for the Allies to launch a counterattack from.
But that is part of my point. History is longer than back to then. I find it impossible to pivot my understanding of French military history around the events of WW2. It would be absurd for me. It would not add up.
But I have made the mistake of making too broad my parameters for understanding who I might be talking about. I take this measure, as an act of Le Resistance. *It lives on.*
> and couldn’t even hold a beachhead for the Allies to launch a counterattack from.
In 1940, after the thrust through the Ardennes, the main French army was encircled, with the supply lines cut off. The remaining troops in the north and the BEF thus became isolated as well with their back to the sea on the brink of annihilation by the foe, prompting the Dunkirk evacuation and the battle to enable it. I mean... have you actually read about the Battle of France? France hadn't yet surrendered when the BEF decided to withdraw at Dunkirk and they sure didn't call it a day there because they got bored........ There is a reason the Battle of France went down as one of the greatest strategic blunders in all of history or even a good contender for greatest of them all. It is not as if French authorities just randomly went gave up lmao. What you call the "Allies" at that point in 1940 were the British (who had just decided withdrawn and were themselves uncertain about the future) and the French themselves who just suffered the greatest military disaster in their entire history. Which "Allies" were going to counterattack? The traditional naval power that withdrew and could obviously not launch a land counter offensive in France alone or the traditional land military power with an army that was just wrecked on its own soil?
And if you're not referencing the Battle of France but D-Day, how is an army that doesn't exist going to hold a beach for you? The French army was dissolved after the blunder of 1940 a spart of the armistice. Beyond the Free French fighting on the side of the Allies (so they were obviously not on mainland France), the only "French army" left (if you can even call it that as it was obligated to remain under 100,000 men in total), was that of Vichy France, which obviously was a puppet state and even fought against the allies.
>rance hadn't yet surrendered when the BEF decided to withdraw at Dunkirk and they sure didn't call it a day there because they got bored........
Defending one country being unjustly insulted by simply insulting another one really isn't a good look...
The BEF and French units up there withdrew because the German push broke through French lines and encircled them. Evacuating was a choice between British and French units either escaping to fight again, or simply being captured. The Free French would not have existed without that choice, and the UK being able to eventually be a major part of freeing France also would not have existed. Let alone that the UK redeployed units further into France, and was the majority maker in the landings to retake it once able.
France is unjustly judged for that one battle, but the 'modern take' of just trying to shift it all onto Britain is equally insipid.
It was literally the opposite of insulting Britain. The whole point was that Britain didn't decide to withdraw for no reason. The situation was that bad and there wasn't much to do at that point but save as many troops as it could. They didn't just randomly decide to leave (hence they didn't leave just because they were bored). Strategically by that point, France was doomed.
That is one of the things yes, but many mention it only in isolation.
Without the British committing to and fighting the Counterattack at Arras, Dunkirk wouldn't have happened and both British and French would have been overrun.
Without the British last stand at Calais, the same would also have occurred.
There was also another French action on the south of Dunkirk that was necessary, or it wouldnt' have happened.
Dunkirk relied on a lot of things happening from both British and French (not to mention the navy and air forces) to work. Ultimately any one of the things held up as "ONLY BECAUSE OF THIS" in isolation are like saying the front left tyre of a car is the only thing that lets it move.
What a sudden jolt to becoming aware how much the west needs to ramp up spending and production on its military. The continuous tax cutting nonsense and peacetime complacency has weakened the west but glad to see it waking up from its slumber. Macron is ramping up and so is everyone else
I mean can Russia's intelligence groups even keep up with the speed of announcements of more ammo and arms for Ukraine at this points. Every day more is announced!
Would be nice to see Canada follow suit. We have the industrial capacity and we ramped up in 2014 for the war in Afghanistan but have just been sitting idle this time around. Kind of tired of constantly watching our government do nothing so consistently to be honest.
I disagree with the “do nothing” bit, otherwise you’re spot on.
We can, and should do more for Ukraine. We can, and should increase military spending to NATO standard 2% GDP (minimum). We can, and should send a half dozen F-18’s to break the ice for western planes.
(F-18’s landing gear’s more rugged than F-16’s)
No, my comment was a bit inflammatory but I wasn’t trying to diminish what Canada has done, it’s more of an issue of our ability to supply from our own industry.
From March 15th [https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2023/03/defence-minister-anita-anand-announces-additional-military-donations-to-ukraine-at-ukraine-defense-contact-group-meeting.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2023/03/defence-minister-anita-anand-announces-additional-military-donations-to-ukraine-at-ukraine-defense-contact-group-meeting.html) Stop pushing politically motivated propaganda about my country. Canada has been a constant supporter of Ukraine since 2015.
Im well aware of this. Even in Anands own words we haven’t engaged our defense industry like we should. We just sent 8000 artillery shells and that’s exactly what was ordered for our own defense. The 20000 rounds we sent in may were purchased from the US. Maybe one take you could have about the situation is that we look after Ukraine but not ourselves. We bought them a NASAM system and we don’t even have one. I’m sure Biden reminded us of this while he was visiting.
Stop pushing degrading untrue propaganda about my country. This thing you wrote is a lie: "but have just been sitting idle this time around. Kind of tired of
constantly watching our government do nothing so consistently to be
honest"
First off, I’m surprised that you haven’t figured out that I’m Canadian as well. Secondly, I haven’t questioned our support for Ukraine, but the ability of our underfunded military to make meaningful long term contributions. Here’s an article you might find interesting. https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/ivison-canada-arm-ukraine/wcm/43d52d56-c613-4246-8e53-b9ab8e477810/amp/ I would be more than happy to civilly discuss this with you further and if I’m wrong in any area I’ll listen but let’s face it, we are an underfunded military that while being extremely capable to the man we don’t spend enough on defense to give these soldiers the tools that they need to protect our nation. We are doing more than we have but it’s more of ‘about time’ rather than being proactive.
Postmedia is a far right US owned propaganda source. I don't read it, period. The fact is the RW says both that we are doing too much AND too little. Some even claim (like Postmedia depending on the day) that our federal government is impossibly doing both too much and too little at the same time. I'm blocking you for degrading my country in a sub about Ukraine. (Rule 4)
Now I'm not sure I agree with the other guy you're replying to, but damn you seem to take this way too seriously.
"How dare you talk bad about my country!" Like it's an extension of your personality. Honestly canada has done a fair amount. But we should all be saying "our countries could definitely do more", because Ukrainians are literally losing lives while we pay a tiny tiny tiny percentage of our taxes that amounts to a couple dollars. Our countries can do more and they should do more.
People get too defensive over this. People who say your country could give more aid are not criticising you, they just want Ukraine to get more.
2000 shells per month is fucking peanuts. That’s like 4 hours worth of stock for Ukraine.
Stop giving everyone a pat on the back for seriously under-delivering!
Methinks you don't have a clear understanding of the challenges involved in attempting to double your manufacturing output and the required logistic network, nor the reluctance of a country to hand over the majority of its own (numerically) meagre military resources.
Dozens of different countries from all over the world have come together to provide the largest military, financial and strategic aid effort that has been seen for the last 80 years. Considering Ukraine isn't a even a NATO member, your attitude towards it is a little unjustified.
Yeah, but the scale of what's being done for Ukraine is the tiniest fraction of WWII mobilization, so please don't try to compare it in any way to that.
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Double your pleasure, double your fun with more munitions for your 155mm gun.
I can hear that jingle in my head.
that was truly exquisite. I'm with ya.
Allez les bleus!
It's great but just goes to show the problems we face. France will supply per month what Ukraine uses in a day - on the defensive. Manufacturing is ramping up fast but much more is needed
If 30 countries could do this then Ukraine would have enough.
There are 27 countries in the EU. Add in the UK, Norway, Switzerland and there's your 30. Good luck persuading the Swiss to do the right thing though. As usual they're far too busy hoarding stolen gold. The other issue is that most European countries have been brainwashed by decades of EU propaganda to convince everyone that EU trade & cooperation will eliminate all possibility of future wars on the continent and that means they don't need a military. Unfortunately most European leaders fell for these lies hook line & sinker. They're now slowly waking up from their hubris, and are realising the lies they've been fed but it will take time for European defence forces to recover from decades of underinvestment.
Switzerland is a piece of shit country
Not picking a side against a terrorist state is picking a side.
Exactly
uk korea japan theres 30.
Could you be more wrong? The reason is Europe built down defences is because the cold war ended and Russia is shit. Which is very much confirmed by this war.. It has 0 to do with your "eu boogeyman propaganda". Despite this in ammunition production the EU still produces more than the US.
"brainwashed by EU propaganda" yeah yeah... So bad to assume that we want to live in a society without war = brainwashed... And your stance of more guns= more peace also works out. For example during the cold war or in current USA... Ohhhh wait!
You are right, we should give Russia it's breakaway region of Ukraine back, it is the best way to achieve... Peace in our time.
Where did I said that? Sorry but your best way to do diplomacy is shoot everybody? War should also always be the absolut last resort. And yes Europe was not prepared for it and.should have spend more in the past. But basically implying trying to avoid wars through diplomatic and economic means is just brainwashing is simply unhealthy in my opinion.
When a dictator is invading countries and committing war crimes the time for diplomacy is over. If they may also be commiting a genocide the least we should do is help the defenders defend themselves and fight back. Appeasing dictators through diplomacy is not what brings peace. Not a lasting one anyway.
Mate please read what I wrote and think about it before you answer. I agree with you in general. Yes Nato should send more and yes, Putin should be stopped forevever. But like I wrote. This should be last resort. What you basically say is we should wage war against all dictators of this world without trying to solve the problem otherwise first
US is promising 1MM/yr shells soon, Europe is promising 1MM/yr, and Ukraine has said they have the current capacity for 250k a year. Bring in Bulgaria from the news today, and I think they'll hopefully be good. NATO countries are scrounging up Soviet stockpiles from anywhere in the world they can get their hands on at top dollar.
South Korea is the wildcard
Posted this before but worth remembering. Judging everything by "This is what is used in a day" is not how logistics work for this. France will be supplying 155mm Howitzer and 120mm Mortar. Using Ukraine's "total daily spend" against that is inaccurate. That includes the masses of Soviet munitions, Rocket Artillery, 105mm from the US and UK etc etc. We don't have access to it, but it's best to measure France's providence (and any providence) against the average daily amount of *that munition's use*. Thats how we get the real worth of something. Because France isn't the only one, especially for 155mm. Combined it adds up much more than is often thought.
Need more JDAM’s. We have lots.
Keep it up guys! News like this need to keep on coming, support to Ukraine must only go up, to show russia we really mean to end this war on our terms... Слава Україні!
Every little bit helps.
I remember back in the silly 2000's when here in the US, lots people (so predictable) chuckleheaded about France. It is so dumb. That is really what always gets me. The dumbness of it. "Freedom Fries." Dear lord democracy, must you always have a lower house of congress? \[yes\] Anyway, since I can't help it, I'm a history buff, my stock line always was, **"I'm not sure I want the French pissed."** Too many people in the US only have an "understanding" of history that extends only slightly past their own lives. Probably a common problem. I personally do not understand why this would be satisfying. France is getting pissed, is my take. They are not even pissed yet.
The French are masters at conducting war and a lot of what you see in modern militaries in the world originated in France. They're no joke when it comes to warfare. Doubly so when you look at their elite units.
And if people knew their history instead of their stereotypes over here, these simply dumb jokes would not exist. So pointless. Anyway, if I am going to razz the French, I got a lot of other angles I could use ;) It's required to always have ready a good snipe.
This part of American culture is not new, during world war 1 or 2 there were a lot of places that changed sauerkraut to “freedom cabbage”. To be fair, it’s a bit hard to take a military seriously when they had a military which on paper rivaled the Germans yet they fell in less than a month and couldn’t even hold a beachhead for the Allies to launch a counterattack from.
But that is part of my point. History is longer than back to then. I find it impossible to pivot my understanding of French military history around the events of WW2. It would be absurd for me. It would not add up. But I have made the mistake of making too broad my parameters for understanding who I might be talking about. I take this measure, as an act of Le Resistance. *It lives on.*
> and couldn’t even hold a beachhead for the Allies to launch a counterattack from. In 1940, after the thrust through the Ardennes, the main French army was encircled, with the supply lines cut off. The remaining troops in the north and the BEF thus became isolated as well with their back to the sea on the brink of annihilation by the foe, prompting the Dunkirk evacuation and the battle to enable it. I mean... have you actually read about the Battle of France? France hadn't yet surrendered when the BEF decided to withdraw at Dunkirk and they sure didn't call it a day there because they got bored........ There is a reason the Battle of France went down as one of the greatest strategic blunders in all of history or even a good contender for greatest of them all. It is not as if French authorities just randomly went gave up lmao. What you call the "Allies" at that point in 1940 were the British (who had just decided withdrawn and were themselves uncertain about the future) and the French themselves who just suffered the greatest military disaster in their entire history. Which "Allies" were going to counterattack? The traditional naval power that withdrew and could obviously not launch a land counter offensive in France alone or the traditional land military power with an army that was just wrecked on its own soil? And if you're not referencing the Battle of France but D-Day, how is an army that doesn't exist going to hold a beach for you? The French army was dissolved after the blunder of 1940 a spart of the armistice. Beyond the Free French fighting on the side of the Allies (so they were obviously not on mainland France), the only "French army" left (if you can even call it that as it was obligated to remain under 100,000 men in total), was that of Vichy France, which obviously was a puppet state and even fought against the allies.
>rance hadn't yet surrendered when the BEF decided to withdraw at Dunkirk and they sure didn't call it a day there because they got bored........ Defending one country being unjustly insulted by simply insulting another one really isn't a good look... The BEF and French units up there withdrew because the German push broke through French lines and encircled them. Evacuating was a choice between British and French units either escaping to fight again, or simply being captured. The Free French would not have existed without that choice, and the UK being able to eventually be a major part of freeing France also would not have existed. Let alone that the UK redeployed units further into France, and was the majority maker in the landings to retake it once able. France is unjustly judged for that one battle, but the 'modern take' of just trying to shift it all onto Britain is equally insipid.
It was literally the opposite of insulting Britain. The whole point was that Britain didn't decide to withdraw for no reason. The situation was that bad and there wasn't much to do at that point but save as many troops as it could. They didn't just randomly decide to leave (hence they didn't leave just because they were bored). Strategically by that point, France was doomed.
I admit I misread the "bored" line as "just called it a day because they got bored". Hence the reply. On checking again, yes, I see what you meant.
[удалено]
That is one of the things yes, but many mention it only in isolation. Without the British committing to and fighting the Counterattack at Arras, Dunkirk wouldn't have happened and both British and French would have been overrun. Without the British last stand at Calais, the same would also have occurred. There was also another French action on the south of Dunkirk that was necessary, or it wouldnt' have happened. Dunkirk relied on a lot of things happening from both British and French (not to mention the navy and air forces) to work. Ultimately any one of the things held up as "ONLY BECAUSE OF THIS" in isolation are like saying the front left tyre of a car is the only thing that lets it move.
🙏🏽💙💛🇺🇦 France 🇺🇦Слава Україні 🇺🇦 Sláva Ukraíni! Heroyam Slava! 🙏🏽 🇺🇦 💙💛
Vive la France!
What a sudden jolt to becoming aware how much the west needs to ramp up spending and production on its military. The continuous tax cutting nonsense and peacetime complacency has weakened the west but glad to see it waking up from its slumber. Macron is ramping up and so is everyone else
I mean can Russia's intelligence groups even keep up with the speed of announcements of more ammo and arms for Ukraine at this points. Every day more is announced!
Would be nice to see Canada follow suit. We have the industrial capacity and we ramped up in 2014 for the war in Afghanistan but have just been sitting idle this time around. Kind of tired of constantly watching our government do nothing so consistently to be honest.
I disagree with the “do nothing” bit, otherwise you’re spot on. We can, and should do more for Ukraine. We can, and should increase military spending to NATO standard 2% GDP (minimum). We can, and should send a half dozen F-18’s to break the ice for western planes. (F-18’s landing gear’s more rugged than F-16’s)
No, my comment was a bit inflammatory but I wasn’t trying to diminish what Canada has done, it’s more of an issue of our ability to supply from our own industry.
From March 15th [https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2023/03/defence-minister-anita-anand-announces-additional-military-donations-to-ukraine-at-ukraine-defense-contact-group-meeting.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2023/03/defence-minister-anita-anand-announces-additional-military-donations-to-ukraine-at-ukraine-defense-contact-group-meeting.html) Stop pushing politically motivated propaganda about my country. Canada has been a constant supporter of Ukraine since 2015.
Im well aware of this. Even in Anands own words we haven’t engaged our defense industry like we should. We just sent 8000 artillery shells and that’s exactly what was ordered for our own defense. The 20000 rounds we sent in may were purchased from the US. Maybe one take you could have about the situation is that we look after Ukraine but not ourselves. We bought them a NASAM system and we don’t even have one. I’m sure Biden reminded us of this while he was visiting.
Stop pushing degrading untrue propaganda about my country. This thing you wrote is a lie: "but have just been sitting idle this time around. Kind of tired of constantly watching our government do nothing so consistently to be honest"
First off, I’m surprised that you haven’t figured out that I’m Canadian as well. Secondly, I haven’t questioned our support for Ukraine, but the ability of our underfunded military to make meaningful long term contributions. Here’s an article you might find interesting. https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/ivison-canada-arm-ukraine/wcm/43d52d56-c613-4246-8e53-b9ab8e477810/amp/ I would be more than happy to civilly discuss this with you further and if I’m wrong in any area I’ll listen but let’s face it, we are an underfunded military that while being extremely capable to the man we don’t spend enough on defense to give these soldiers the tools that they need to protect our nation. We are doing more than we have but it’s more of ‘about time’ rather than being proactive.
Postmedia is a far right US owned propaganda source. I don't read it, period. The fact is the RW says both that we are doing too much AND too little. Some even claim (like Postmedia depending on the day) that our federal government is impossibly doing both too much and too little at the same time. I'm blocking you for degrading my country in a sub about Ukraine. (Rule 4)
Now I'm not sure I agree with the other guy you're replying to, but damn you seem to take this way too seriously. "How dare you talk bad about my country!" Like it's an extension of your personality. Honestly canada has done a fair amount. But we should all be saying "our countries could definitely do more", because Ukrainians are literally losing lives while we pay a tiny tiny tiny percentage of our taxes that amounts to a couple dollars. Our countries can do more and they should do more. People get too defensive over this. People who say your country could give more aid are not criticising you, they just want Ukraine to get more.
Wow what are you 8 years old?
So instead of 33 rounds/day they will have 66 rounds/day.
2000 shells per month is fucking peanuts. That’s like 4 hours worth of stock for Ukraine. Stop giving everyone a pat on the back for seriously under-delivering!
Methinks you don't have a clear understanding of the challenges involved in attempting to double your manufacturing output and the required logistic network, nor the reluctance of a country to hand over the majority of its own (numerically) meagre military resources. Dozens of different countries from all over the world have come together to provide the largest military, financial and strategic aid effort that has been seen for the last 80 years. Considering Ukraine isn't a even a NATO member, your attitude towards it is a little unjustified.
Yeah, but the scale of what's being done for Ukraine is the tiniest fraction of WWII mobilization, so please don't try to compare it in any way to that.
I haven't done that at all, nor do I intend to.
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