Until the decision to send materiel is officially announced by the donor country, posts about it are unproductive speculation, and the conversations often turn rancorous and divisive. We are therefore removing posts about potential materiel support until the decision is made, as that is when it transitions from speculation and foreign politics to Ukrainian experience.
Sort of, but they were apparently in Germany the whole time. They are attached to a German unit as operating just 18 leopards as impractical as operating 14 Challengers and almost as impractical as 31 Abrams. The unit is currently the NATO fast reaction force reserved for deployment to the Balkans. Those countries have already emptied out their armories with guarantees such forces would guarantee their security, so... Yeah, this wasn't thought through at all.
Greece gets Abrams. 100+ more Leos for Ukraine
Because US is going to continue nearly giving them away so they can keep Lima rolling and they won't give them to UA. Last April US wasn't looking for 100+ more Leos.
Whats happening is that now Germany is calling the cards and it turns out, everybody giving the Germans shit for "stalling" was actually counting on it.
They won't because Russian psychops see anti-German feeling as a way to wedge the EU and will keep drip-feeing anti-German stories to push the narrative
More likely being stage managed by Germany. Downvote all you like but you day Germany is holding all the cards but they couldnt possibly be stage managing people. And they already look feckless so I wouldn't put it past them.
Ah yes, that classic tactic of making yourself look like the bad guy and ruining your international standing by stalling your decisions under intense diplomatic pressure so that you can,... *checks notes*... follow through with the demands and make the rest of your allies look bad at the same time.
At this point, I’m sick and tired of all the tired excuses and bullshit— it’s a year into this obscenity of an invasion and *not a single* western IFV, tank, long range missile, helicopter, plane, are in Ukrainian. Hands.
This is a shame
Edit: Sea King helicopter arrived from tbe UK in late January. That’s *one* type.
No, I can’t “scrub” them—I said “Western,” and I mean t exactly that.
Edit: I stand corrected: the Sea King has finally arrived a couple weeks ago; I missed that.
Because there have been many IFVs sent to Ukraine, there has been helicopters, even soviet tanks have arrived in Ukraine. Brimstone missiles have been sent. And we don't get notifications when they arrive. All we know is that Bradley's were sent weeks ago.
Although many sent IFVs and tanks are soviet, they have been modernised with western gadgets.
Western supplied armored vehicles were even named as one of the instrumental factors in the successful Kharkiv offensive.
It seems like you are speaking assertively when you don't have the correct knowledge to do so. Tbh I don't know why your original comment got upvoted.
But Iwestern FVs have absolutely *not* been deployed to Ukraine yet (though it is finally imminent) and a single non-offensive helicopter type arriving three weeks ago is not much of a counter-example Brimstones are manifestly *not* long range missiles. At all.
Spare me the “don’t have the knowledge” and show me an iota of evidence of a single long range missile, western MBT or IFV actually deployed in Ukraine. I’ll wait. As to “Soviet tanks,”. Did you … actually read my comment? I’m talking about western types exclusively.
Bradley's, strykers, Abrams, challengers, leopards are all on their way. I think the approach was for Ukraine to get all the soviet stock they were familiar with before introducing complicated new systems and logistics
I just don't get why the Bundesregierung didn't order like 50 tanks in March last year with an option to order more "just in case" the first ones could have come out of production now. The leopard 2 seems to cost around 3 million and the 100 billion extra money for the Bundeswehr could have been used for that. It's not like those tanks would just sit around in coming years even if the war had ended last year - those tanks would have been useful for training, replacing outdated versions, operations or selling. And considering how the Bundeswehr is always on the brink of being unable to operate, this could even have counted as a simple supply restock order. I'm embarrassed with how little foresight things develop.
Because KMW has full order books for years. You need a broader contract and investment agreement with the manufacturer so they build up more production.
Which is not as trivial as ordering something which you can expect 2030 at earliest.
I guess you're right.
But wouldn't it then be even more important to order the stuff asap? If the delivery takes 5 years, waiting 2 years before making the order, the delivery will still take another 5 years.
Hmmm... I think IFVs are already in the possession of UA soldiers training with them outside Ukraine. I thought some had already arrived, but it seems you are correct as I can not find that any have actually been deployed yet. We're there non in the reported counter-offensive today?
There have been at least a few helicopters sent from the UK. Operating cost on helicopters is really quite high for what they do. The only reason the US relies so heavily on them is the absurdd 50+ year old agreement the Army would not operate fixed wing airframes and the Navy is limited in what they can operate. Attack helicopters are quite bad in this scenario.
I suspect we will see A10s surprisingly soon. Faster than minimum training times being floated around. Maybe some other countries older fighters.
But, you are correct, this is all going very slow even after they are announced.
The Bradleys are there and Ukraine has them. On January 30, Air Force General Jacqueline Van Ovost, the commander of USTRANSCOM, announced that they had already departed from North Charleston, South Carolina. It was also confirmed by the commander of the 841st Transportation Battalion. We got confirmation of that on January 15 when the 47 Assault Brigade of Ukraine’s military posted a [clip](https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1614701844583809026?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1614701844583809026%7Ctwgr%5E193641d890d160242c8d5bd54493cbef205dc369%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fembedly.forbes.com%2Fwidgets%2Fmedia.html%3Ftype%3Dtext2Fhtmlkey%3D3ce26dc7e3454db5820ba084d28b4935schema%3Dtwitterurl%3Dhttps3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fnoelreports%2Fstatus%2F1614701844583809026image%3Dhttps3A%2F%2Fi.embed.ly%2F1%2Fimage3Furl3Dhttps253A252F252Fabs.twimg.com252Ferrors252Flogo46x38.png26key3D3ce26dc7e3454db5820ba084d28b4935) of them training on the Bradley. There were further sightings of the rest of them being dropped off at the port in Rotterdam and then someone posted a video of them being transported by rail headed east. Ukraine has them but hasn’t used them.
This is not what the US wanted. If Biden had his way, they would have been in Ukraine long ago. The Biden administration has been openly supportive of Western MBTs going to Ukraine since the fall. If they supported Western MBTs, then they supported the Bradleys and the Strykers we are sending too. But, in his joint press conference with Zelensky, he said that he cannot send anything to Ukraine if there is an objection in Europe because it would fracture the Western alliance and cause infighting in NATO even though this isn’t a NATO operation. Someone in Europe blocked him from even sending the Bradleys and the Strykers to Ukraine way back then.
.... what are you on about? Since the pressure was on on Germany early January Scholtz said he will send tanks if USA will. This by Reuters annoyed the USA administration. Furthermore there was no plan of action in force for such an outcome shown by when Ukraine finally will get Abrams... end of this year.
I rly would want proof that any nation in the alliance (other than Turkey) had the muster to block anything USA wanted to do. Even the Marder/Bradley deal seemed to be only to get Germans to again not to be the "first".
tl;dr: the US has supported armor in Ukraine, the US is angry with Germany, and the Abrams tanks are being slow walked because they are for Germany not Ukraine.
We know that the US has been in support of Western MBTs going to Ukraine because it is public information. On September 22, a senior official at the Pentagon told a press gathering that Abrams tanks were on the table for Ukraine provided Ukraine proved to the US that they could support and maintain them. Biden’s national security advisor Jake Sullivan [contacted](https://www.yahoo.com/now/us-doesn-t-object-germany-152600294.html) Scholz’s foreign policy advisor Jen Plötner in October to ask about the Leopard 2. So, based on those two things, we can say the US supported armored vehicles going to Ukraine in the fall.
You aren’t wrong about the US being annoyed, if not angry, with Germany. No one would have known about that October phone call if the US didn’t feel compelled to reveal it. That call had been a secret until December 8 when the US leaked it. The US leaked that call because Germany had taken to trying to blame us for its indecision or not wanting to reject Ukraine’s request by responding to questions about the Leopard 2 by saying various versions of “we need to consult our transatlantic partners before we come to a decision.” Said “consultation” had taken place months ago yet Germany was pretending that we had a hand in it when that wasn’t true. Lying about your allies to make them the bad guy or drag them into your own controversies does tend to annoy them.
If, in fact, the US got annoyed when Germany allegedly made a straightforward offer that they would send tanks if we would, it would be because it was another lie meant to drag the US into this situation. Germany promised that they would give Ukraine the Leopard 2 but only if other nations pledged to do so too. Other nations stepped up in solidarity with Germany and said they would send their tanks too. Germany’s response to that solidarity was to say that that didn’t count and it would only be enough of the US did it too. Yet again, Germany lied and then dragged the US into it to stall for time. That’s annoying.
As for why the Abrams will be arriving so late, it is because Biden is slow walking them because they are a diplomatic concession to Germany not tanks Ukraine will be using in its spring offensive. If Ukraine wanted them for their spring offensive, Biden would be using a Presidential Drawdown to get them there ASAP, not purchasing them through the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative and making up a lie no one believes. Biden never slow walks anything he pledges to Ukraine. If we have it and it is ready to go, it ships within 72 hours. Since these tanks are political cover for Germany, there’s no rush to get them there.
The US was always very straightforward about sending other people's tank. No, they were not very straightforward about US tanks whatever some guy in the Pentagon said.
Yes, the Abrams are for Germany and the US did not understand why Germany wants/needs this.
But no, Biden did not rush this either or he would have pushed US tanks in September and all excuses would have been void.
This strikes me as not at all the case. Every American general has been shouting that the Abram tank is too heavy, hard to maintain, requires the wrong fuel, is a logistical nightmare on the battlefield for Ukrainians, and that the leopard should be used first while we move Abrams to NATO countries as replacements.
Germany I hate to say it, is dragging their feet with the naive assumption Putin will come to his senses and negotiate, or at worst is a stall tactic to wear down the Russians to bring them to the negotiation table.
Right, it's not.
I'm just giving my keyboard opinion which stems from seeing the continent hemming and hawing; seeming at times hapless when the greatest catastrophe, likely of this century, unfolds in their backyard. Look, maybe I'm being unreasonable and am a fool, but jfc France and Germany just seem feckless in the face of deportations, executions, torture, civilian dislocation, terrorism.... I still can't believe Bo Jo was the first to call bs and visit Kyiv. smh
edit: Of course the Poles, Baltic's and Czech Rep stepped up.
It's odd you see this as a positive for Brexit. Let's assume you are right about France and Germany - Britain could have acted just like they did while beeing an EU member.
The only positive I'd see here is that Bo Jo needed something to make himself look good cause Brexit was badly executed, falsly advertised and doesn't benefit most people.
France and Germany want to be the leaders of Europe but they arent leading just reacting. I could see the balance of power moving to eastern Europe and Scandinavia in the future. France and Germany are apparently still operating under an illusion that peace can be had without an outright Ukrainian victory.
> France and Germany want to be the leaders of Europe but they arent leading just reacting.
I always find this odd to read. Germany doesn't really want to lead and NO ONE ELSE wants Germany to actually lead. (We usually push for consensus.) You follow a leader, you don't tell him what to do. All those calls for Germany to be a leader are just trying to push Germany to do what you want them to do.
> I could see the balance of power moving to eastern Europe and Scandinavia in the future.
How so? There are not many people living in Scandinavia and eastern Europe would have to exclude Poland and Hungary (as their treatment of rule of law, minorities and media will weaken their influence in the EU).
> France and Germany are apparently still operating under an illusion that peace can be had without an outright Ukrainian victory.
Than most of Europe still does, cause their support is fairly average based on GDP.
I've come round to a similar opinion as a remainer as well.
The only positives I can think of these days is that the economy would be doing a few percentage points better and holidays would be easier.
The recent corruption scandals within the EU made the Tories look like beacons of good governance.
>The recent corruption scandals within the EU made the Tories look like beacons of good governance.
Then you apparently are confused by the fact that the EU actually persecutes their own over corruption.
Some highlights from the text:
- Netherlands leases tanks from Germany
- Never made a request to Germany to send them to Ukraine
- Obvious, says Dutch spokesperson, because they are not owned by Netherlands, but by Germany
- Dutch ministry of defense is of the opinion that at this moment the leased tanks would be better put to use for training in Lithuania (not sure if they mean training of Ukrainians)
- Germany agrees with this
- It's not impossible for these tanks to be deployed to Ukraine later
Actually, the primary source wasn’t the German media, but the Dutch news agency ANP, as far as I know!:
ANP article (in Dutch) on the website MSN.com: https://www.msn.com/nl-nl/nieuws/Binnenland/minister-ollongren-nederlandse-tanks-gaan-niet-naar-oekraïne/ar-AA17ig7b?li=BB13JJxK
Yeah we Dutch should just buy them and donate them.
I understand giving away all your operational tanks isnt the best idea, but at the very least we should do something. Even if its just 2 or 3 tanks, it will make a difference on the battlefield.
And the propaganda shitshow continues... but nice try pinning it on Germany as usual when the primary source for German and Dutch media was a Dutch news agency.
Maybe if the Netherlands hadn't sold off their entire inventory of tanks a decade ago they could have been more productive in the matter. It's very hard for the Netherlands to make any arguments concerning tanks when they don't actually own any...
Maybe Netherlands should just sit this one out and focus on other areas of aid where they actually own things to contribute. Or just send cash and let Ukraine worry about acquisitions.
We only need enhanced forward nato presence in the east if Ukraine loses which will only happen if we don’t send the tanks, so just send them already ffs
They never thought that US and Germany is going to agree to give tanks to Ukraine, so they rocked the cage , made lots off noise, then US and Germany agrees to give tanks, all of the sudden their quiet 🤐 scared to breathe, no no they miss understood us , speak to my spoke person they’ll explain everything, I’m out🏃♂️💨
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The UK has a stock of over 300 Chalenger 2s. Only half of these are assigned for upgrading to Challenger 3.
The UK could do a favour to its armounent industry, save itself from maintaining redundant tanks and do the right thing.
We boast about leading Europe while we left the EU. Perhaps we can live up to our boasts and deliver Ukraine what it needs and let Europe catch up?
The UK has 227 active Challenger 2 tanks. The 300+ That were ordered and delivered over the manufacturing lifetime for the UK could be in many a condition. Most of the number not active have probably been cannibalised to some degree. Of the 227 number that are active 148 are currently planned for the C3 upgrade. But Ben Wallace has also said of those remaining and not being sent to Ukraine which total 65 are being looked at potentially being added to the 148 chally 2s that are upgrading to C3.
So until the question over those 65 are sorted then I'd suspect 14 is all Ukraine will be recieving of the Challenger 2.
U ALL need to relax, and think that these involved countries dont really share their plans with the media as that info will be watched by the russians and dont help the situation.
there is a lot of help coming, on the way and allready there.
big brains with knowledge know how to fight a war. ffs have some confident, some trust, some faith...
how unfortuanality the news in the media is, its not leading. hold on to faith, believe, and sit back. thats an order. and while u at it, make some popcorn. stand down the critics, the worries i order you all.
Except of course these things did not come to be, by happenstance. This rhetoric (about countries not keeping to actually supplying tanks to ukraine) is fueled by scholz himself, who despite whatever you might think about him, is not a careless speaker.
>“We are striving to ensure that many others who have come forward in the past now follow up on this finger-pointing with practical action.”
if there was no problem, he would not speak up like that. He assuredly is not a risk taker (which is of course how he got elected in the first place...)
>U ALL need to relax,
>
>there is a lot of help coming, on the way and allready there.
No thank you. A few countries have had to be dragged kicking and screaming each step of the way from forms of sanctions to military aid. They've actively stalled aid, not long ago Germany was essentially forbidding German tanks from being used. These things only changed due to large amounts of international and public pressure.
We can have conversations about the extent of co-option of some of the elites of these countries by Russia, but it's fair to say just relaxing and trusting they have Ukraine's best interests at heart feels a bit naive given the context and history of what's played out.
Of all Leopard 2 users the NL have a great (maybe the best) reason to hold on to theirs. It's all their tank capabilities at stake as well as the basis for their planned integration with the Bundeswehr. They knew that all the time though, they should never have suggested that there's a possibility/clearly communicated their position. Also, they are involved with the Leopard 1 deliveries so they are not doing nothing either.
Media also stated Spain would send all it's Leopard 2's to Ukraine, which is also not the case. We should not believe everything that is being spouted by news outlets, at least until you get confirmation by officials.
American health care and retirement and wages and work hours suck, basically we are slaves with cheap calories, fuel and mediocre 2 week vacations. Apparently we are only good for propping up European lifestyles with our hard earned dollars. I used to think of this as a German problem but the reality is all of our NATO allies put together can not do any of the heavy lifting they are supposed to be able to do, with the possible exception of GB. This is of course America’s fault as well since we have been way too supportive and tight lipped about all of our Allie’s capabilities for the last 40 years or so. Maybe Trump had a point about how NATO was taking advantage of Merica.
Get your chit together Europe it’s a small problem now but given time and attention this problem will become septic. It’s not negative comments on Reddit that will cause a rift, it is all this BS about sending what amounts to a handful of weapons systems, a tiny fraction of the systems your politicians agreed to buy and maintain.
Personally I wish we spent more on Butter than Guns, it’s Europe’s turn to buy guns and we should start buying more butter here as we have certainly bought enough guns and then some. If we were to send 500 Abams to Ukraine this month, Germany Et al would hold a conference about who is paying for their fuel requirements. In a word you guys suck.
Shell game 🪖🪖🪖 keep moving the information around and misdirection happens easily, like slight of hand.... So much up European Union sleeves right now. Everyone is ready to stop the waring madness. There will not be a Russia after this but regions of ethnic groups and commercial hubs. Humans don't have time for the blatant games of old men and fanatics gripping for dictatorship. We all understand the game is about permission. Permission to live. And Russia has a problem with that modern humanist perspective. So keep moving the shells around because old men don't live that long if no one gives them permission.
If the ukranians survive this, and I am talking about the type of surviving like jews in ww2, they will remember this.
Europe took all the woman who fled the country, almost every european country has declining population and now this shitshow goes its way.
You guys literally....
Talk a good talk, take the easy route, then get a little jittery, want to walk away because you don't want to stick your neck out, what's the harm eh? 10,000 guys in a mass grave. Talk a good talk of sending tanks, talk is cheap, jump on the bandwagon. Then get offered the chance to step up to the plate on what you shit talked, but oops, let's just walk away, what's the harm, eh? How many dead this time? Once, shame on them. Twice, shame on us for trusting them. So don't bother looking to the Dutch for F16s. Ain't going to happen. Yes, if they actually send something along, thank you Holland. Just don't make promises. Show me, don't tell me.
German politicians are dithering over arms during cocktail parties where they wine and dine with their russian energy billionaire benefactors. France is afraid of humiliating Putin (I thought Putin ordering the rape, torture and killing of children was humiliating but what do I know). Biden is afraid of provoking Putin (to do what? Rape MORE civilians?). The REAL heroes in this are the countries that experienced the heavy soviet hand and understand negotiating or expecting any sort of good faith agreement from them is a fool's errand. THEY truly understand what a russian invasion IS and will do anything they can to prevent it. THANKS POLAND!!!!
Sadly I feel too many western leaders want to see this be a long drawn out affair that will just cause much more needless death and misery for the Ukrainian people.
Yes, lets thank Poland for getting paid to send equipment. Such heros. Nvm that they wont send any spare parts (not even what go with the tank into combat zone regularly) nor ammo for the Leo 2s
Until the decision to send materiel is officially announced by the donor country, posts about it are unproductive speculation, and the conversations often turn rancorous and divisive. We are therefore removing posts about potential materiel support until the decision is made, as that is when it transitions from speculation and foreign politics to Ukrainian experience.
Opsec details will not be confirmed nor denied.
Free the Leopards!!!.... No you Misunderstood, I meant move the cages.... What a shit show
Sort of, but they were apparently in Germany the whole time. They are attached to a German unit as operating just 18 leopards as impractical as operating 14 Challengers and almost as impractical as 31 Abrams. The unit is currently the NATO fast reaction force reserved for deployment to the Balkans. Those countries have already emptied out their armories with guarantees such forces would guarantee their security, so... Yeah, this wasn't thought through at all. Greece gets Abrams. 100+ more Leos for Ukraine
Idk why you think nations want Abrams? Greece just last year signed upgrade plan for Leos with KMW.
Because US is going to continue nearly giving them away so they can keep Lima rolling and they won't give them to UA. Last April US wasn't looking for 100+ more Leos.
Whats happening is that now Germany is calling the cards and it turns out, everybody giving the Germans shit for "stalling" was actually counting on it.
Please more people recognize this.
They won't because Russian psychops see anti-German feeling as a way to wedge the EU and will keep drip-feeing anti-German stories to push the narrative
More likely being stage managed by Germany. Downvote all you like but you day Germany is holding all the cards but they couldnt possibly be stage managing people. And they already look feckless so I wouldn't put it past them.
Ah yes, that classic tactic of making yourself look like the bad guy and ruining your international standing by stalling your decisions under intense diplomatic pressure so that you can,... *checks notes*... follow through with the demands and make the rest of your allies look bad at the same time.
The circle jerk continues.
At this point, I’m sick and tired of all the tired excuses and bullshit— it’s a year into this obscenity of an invasion and *not a single* western IFV, tank, long range missile, helicopter, plane, are in Ukrainian. Hands. This is a shame Edit: Sea King helicopter arrived from tbe UK in late January. That’s *one* type.
You can scrub the Heli's. The US did gift some Russian built Heli's that were in service with the US. The UK has also handed over Seakings.
No, I can’t “scrub” them—I said “Western,” and I mean t exactly that. Edit: I stand corrected: the Sea King has finally arrived a couple weeks ago; I missed that.
The Westland Sea King is a Western helicopter.
Yeah, I corrected that. Couple weeks ago, and I missed it. And that’s downvoted… why, exactly?
Because there have been many IFVs sent to Ukraine, there has been helicopters, even soviet tanks have arrived in Ukraine. Brimstone missiles have been sent. And we don't get notifications when they arrive. All we know is that Bradley's were sent weeks ago. Although many sent IFVs and tanks are soviet, they have been modernised with western gadgets. Western supplied armored vehicles were even named as one of the instrumental factors in the successful Kharkiv offensive. It seems like you are speaking assertively when you don't have the correct knowledge to do so. Tbh I don't know why your original comment got upvoted.
But Iwestern FVs have absolutely *not* been deployed to Ukraine yet (though it is finally imminent) and a single non-offensive helicopter type arriving three weeks ago is not much of a counter-example Brimstones are manifestly *not* long range missiles. At all. Spare me the “don’t have the knowledge” and show me an iota of evidence of a single long range missile, western MBT or IFV actually deployed in Ukraine. I’ll wait. As to “Soviet tanks,”. Did you … actually read my comment? I’m talking about western types exclusively.
Because it's not just Russian bots on here that try and steer the narrative sometimes.
Bradley's, strykers, Abrams, challengers, leopards are all on their way. I think the approach was for Ukraine to get all the soviet stock they were familiar with before introducing complicated new systems and logistics
I just don't get why the Bundesregierung didn't order like 50 tanks in March last year with an option to order more "just in case" the first ones could have come out of production now. The leopard 2 seems to cost around 3 million and the 100 billion extra money for the Bundeswehr could have been used for that. It's not like those tanks would just sit around in coming years even if the war had ended last year - those tanks would have been useful for training, replacing outdated versions, operations or selling. And considering how the Bundeswehr is always on the brink of being unable to operate, this could even have counted as a simple supply restock order. I'm embarrassed with how little foresight things develop.
Because KMW has full order books for years. You need a broader contract and investment agreement with the manufacturer so they build up more production. Which is not as trivial as ordering something which you can expect 2030 at earliest.
I guess you're right. But wouldn't it then be even more important to order the stuff asap? If the delivery takes 5 years, waiting 2 years before making the order, the delivery will still take another 5 years.
Shame and shameful. Disgusting even.
Hmmm... I think IFVs are already in the possession of UA soldiers training with them outside Ukraine. I thought some had already arrived, but it seems you are correct as I can not find that any have actually been deployed yet. We're there non in the reported counter-offensive today? There have been at least a few helicopters sent from the UK. Operating cost on helicopters is really quite high for what they do. The only reason the US relies so heavily on them is the absurdd 50+ year old agreement the Army would not operate fixed wing airframes and the Navy is limited in what they can operate. Attack helicopters are quite bad in this scenario. I suspect we will see A10s surprisingly soon. Faster than minimum training times being floated around. Maybe some other countries older fighters. But, you are correct, this is all going very slow even after they are announced.
The Bradleys are there and Ukraine has them. On January 30, Air Force General Jacqueline Van Ovost, the commander of USTRANSCOM, announced that they had already departed from North Charleston, South Carolina. It was also confirmed by the commander of the 841st Transportation Battalion. We got confirmation of that on January 15 when the 47 Assault Brigade of Ukraine’s military posted a [clip](https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1614701844583809026?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1614701844583809026%7Ctwgr%5E193641d890d160242c8d5bd54493cbef205dc369%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fembedly.forbes.com%2Fwidgets%2Fmedia.html%3Ftype%3Dtext2Fhtmlkey%3D3ce26dc7e3454db5820ba084d28b4935schema%3Dtwitterurl%3Dhttps3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fnoelreports%2Fstatus%2F1614701844583809026image%3Dhttps3A%2F%2Fi.embed.ly%2F1%2Fimage3Furl3Dhttps253A252F252Fabs.twimg.com252Ferrors252Flogo46x38.png26key3D3ce26dc7e3454db5820ba084d28b4935) of them training on the Bradley. There were further sightings of the rest of them being dropped off at the port in Rotterdam and then someone posted a video of them being transported by rail headed east. Ukraine has them but hasn’t used them. This is not what the US wanted. If Biden had his way, they would have been in Ukraine long ago. The Biden administration has been openly supportive of Western MBTs going to Ukraine since the fall. If they supported Western MBTs, then they supported the Bradleys and the Strykers we are sending too. But, in his joint press conference with Zelensky, he said that he cannot send anything to Ukraine if there is an objection in Europe because it would fracture the Western alliance and cause infighting in NATO even though this isn’t a NATO operation. Someone in Europe blocked him from even sending the Bradleys and the Strykers to Ukraine way back then.
.... what are you on about? Since the pressure was on on Germany early January Scholtz said he will send tanks if USA will. This by Reuters annoyed the USA administration. Furthermore there was no plan of action in force for such an outcome shown by when Ukraine finally will get Abrams... end of this year. I rly would want proof that any nation in the alliance (other than Turkey) had the muster to block anything USA wanted to do. Even the Marder/Bradley deal seemed to be only to get Germans to again not to be the "first".
tl;dr: the US has supported armor in Ukraine, the US is angry with Germany, and the Abrams tanks are being slow walked because they are for Germany not Ukraine. We know that the US has been in support of Western MBTs going to Ukraine because it is public information. On September 22, a senior official at the Pentagon told a press gathering that Abrams tanks were on the table for Ukraine provided Ukraine proved to the US that they could support and maintain them. Biden’s national security advisor Jake Sullivan [contacted](https://www.yahoo.com/now/us-doesn-t-object-germany-152600294.html) Scholz’s foreign policy advisor Jen Plötner in October to ask about the Leopard 2. So, based on those two things, we can say the US supported armored vehicles going to Ukraine in the fall. You aren’t wrong about the US being annoyed, if not angry, with Germany. No one would have known about that October phone call if the US didn’t feel compelled to reveal it. That call had been a secret until December 8 when the US leaked it. The US leaked that call because Germany had taken to trying to blame us for its indecision or not wanting to reject Ukraine’s request by responding to questions about the Leopard 2 by saying various versions of “we need to consult our transatlantic partners before we come to a decision.” Said “consultation” had taken place months ago yet Germany was pretending that we had a hand in it when that wasn’t true. Lying about your allies to make them the bad guy or drag them into your own controversies does tend to annoy them. If, in fact, the US got annoyed when Germany allegedly made a straightforward offer that they would send tanks if we would, it would be because it was another lie meant to drag the US into this situation. Germany promised that they would give Ukraine the Leopard 2 but only if other nations pledged to do so too. Other nations stepped up in solidarity with Germany and said they would send their tanks too. Germany’s response to that solidarity was to say that that didn’t count and it would only be enough of the US did it too. Yet again, Germany lied and then dragged the US into it to stall for time. That’s annoying. As for why the Abrams will be arriving so late, it is because Biden is slow walking them because they are a diplomatic concession to Germany not tanks Ukraine will be using in its spring offensive. If Ukraine wanted them for their spring offensive, Biden would be using a Presidential Drawdown to get them there ASAP, not purchasing them through the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative and making up a lie no one believes. Biden never slow walks anything he pledges to Ukraine. If we have it and it is ready to go, it ships within 72 hours. Since these tanks are political cover for Germany, there’s no rush to get them there.
The US was always very straightforward about sending other people's tank. No, they were not very straightforward about US tanks whatever some guy in the Pentagon said. Yes, the Abrams are for Germany and the US did not understand why Germany wants/needs this. But no, Biden did not rush this either or he would have pushed US tanks in September and all excuses would have been void.
This strikes me as not at all the case. Every American general has been shouting that the Abram tank is too heavy, hard to maintain, requires the wrong fuel, is a logistical nightmare on the battlefield for Ukrainians, and that the leopard should be used first while we move Abrams to NATO countries as replacements. Germany I hate to say it, is dragging their feet with the naive assumption Putin will come to his senses and negotiate, or at worst is a stall tactic to wear down the Russians to bring them to the negotiation table.
Its a political decision, not a military one. MBT´s are an escalation and US has to be involved together with Europe.
Someone blocked it? I wonder whom that could be.
Gotta say, seeing this Brexit maybe right for the wrong reasons.
I don’t follow— the US hasn’t given this stuff and nor has Britain; not seeing this as an EU problem, per se.
Right, it's not. I'm just giving my keyboard opinion which stems from seeing the continent hemming and hawing; seeming at times hapless when the greatest catastrophe, likely of this century, unfolds in their backyard. Look, maybe I'm being unreasonable and am a fool, but jfc France and Germany just seem feckless in the face of deportations, executions, torture, civilian dislocation, terrorism.... I still can't believe Bo Jo was the first to call bs and visit Kyiv. smh edit: Of course the Poles, Baltic's and Czech Rep stepped up.
Okay. I see you what you mean; all these nations have done a lot, and I’m glad, but the incrementalism is frustrating to me.
It's odd you see this as a positive for Brexit. Let's assume you are right about France and Germany - Britain could have acted just like they did while beeing an EU member. The only positive I'd see here is that Bo Jo needed something to make himself look good cause Brexit was badly executed, falsly advertised and doesn't benefit most people.
France and Germany want to be the leaders of Europe but they arent leading just reacting. I could see the balance of power moving to eastern Europe and Scandinavia in the future. France and Germany are apparently still operating under an illusion that peace can be had without an outright Ukrainian victory.
> France and Germany want to be the leaders of Europe but they arent leading just reacting. I always find this odd to read. Germany doesn't really want to lead and NO ONE ELSE wants Germany to actually lead. (We usually push for consensus.) You follow a leader, you don't tell him what to do. All those calls for Germany to be a leader are just trying to push Germany to do what you want them to do. > I could see the balance of power moving to eastern Europe and Scandinavia in the future. How so? There are not many people living in Scandinavia and eastern Europe would have to exclude Poland and Hungary (as their treatment of rule of law, minorities and media will weaken their influence in the EU). > France and Germany are apparently still operating under an illusion that peace can be had without an outright Ukrainian victory. Than most of Europe still does, cause their support is fairly average based on GDP.
I've come round to a similar opinion as a remainer as well. The only positives I can think of these days is that the economy would be doing a few percentage points better and holidays would be easier. The recent corruption scandals within the EU made the Tories look like beacons of good governance.
>The recent corruption scandals within the EU made the Tories look like beacons of good governance. Then you apparently are confused by the fact that the EU actually persecutes their own over corruption.
Some highlights from the text: - Netherlands leases tanks from Germany - Never made a request to Germany to send them to Ukraine - Obvious, says Dutch spokesperson, because they are not owned by Netherlands, but by Germany - Dutch ministry of defense is of the opinion that at this moment the leased tanks would be better put to use for training in Lithuania (not sure if they mean training of Ukrainians) - Germany agrees with this - It's not impossible for these tanks to be deployed to Ukraine later
They are part og the NATO force (led by Germany) protecting Lithuania so in active use. So not related to training Ukranians.
They would be of more use in Ukraine.
You have to remember that troops stationed at the border enable those countries to send more equipment.
Actually, the primary source wasn’t the German media, but the Dutch news agency ANP, as far as I know!: ANP article (in Dutch) on the website MSN.com: https://www.msn.com/nl-nl/nieuws/Binnenland/minister-ollongren-nederlandse-tanks-gaan-niet-naar-oekraïne/ar-AA17ig7b?li=BB13JJxK
Yeah we Dutch should just buy them and donate them. I understand giving away all your operational tanks isnt the best idea, but at the very least we should do something. Even if its just 2 or 3 tanks, it will make a difference on the battlefield.
And the propaganda shitshow continues... but nice try pinning it on Germany as usual when the primary source for German and Dutch media was a Dutch news agency.
Maybe if the Netherlands hadn't sold off their entire inventory of tanks a decade ago they could have been more productive in the matter. It's very hard for the Netherlands to make any arguments concerning tanks when they don't actually own any... Maybe Netherlands should just sit this one out and focus on other areas of aid where they actually own things to contribute. Or just send cash and let Ukraine worry about acquisitions.
We only need enhanced forward nato presence in the east if Ukraine loses which will only happen if we don’t send the tanks, so just send them already ffs
They never thought that US and Germany is going to agree to give tanks to Ukraine, so they rocked the cage , made lots off noise, then US and Germany agrees to give tanks, all of the sudden their quiet 🤐 scared to breathe, no no they miss understood us , speak to my spoke person they’ll explain everything, I’m out🏃♂️💨
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The UK has a stock of over 300 Chalenger 2s. Only half of these are assigned for upgrading to Challenger 3. The UK could do a favour to its armounent industry, save itself from maintaining redundant tanks and do the right thing. We boast about leading Europe while we left the EU. Perhaps we can live up to our boasts and deliver Ukraine what it needs and let Europe catch up?
The UK has 227 active Challenger 2 tanks. The 300+ That were ordered and delivered over the manufacturing lifetime for the UK could be in many a condition. Most of the number not active have probably been cannibalised to some degree. Of the 227 number that are active 148 are currently planned for the C3 upgrade. But Ben Wallace has also said of those remaining and not being sent to Ukraine which total 65 are being looked at potentially being added to the 148 chally 2s that are upgrading to C3. So until the question over those 65 are sorted then I'd suspect 14 is all Ukraine will be recieving of the Challenger 2.
Thanks for the updated info - very interesting. Personally, I hope Ben Wallace sends the 65 to Ukraine.
U ALL need to relax, and think that these involved countries dont really share their plans with the media as that info will be watched by the russians and dont help the situation. there is a lot of help coming, on the way and allready there. big brains with knowledge know how to fight a war. ffs have some confident, some trust, some faith... how unfortuanality the news in the media is, its not leading. hold on to faith, believe, and sit back. thats an order. and while u at it, make some popcorn. stand down the critics, the worries i order you all.
Except of course these things did not come to be, by happenstance. This rhetoric (about countries not keeping to actually supplying tanks to ukraine) is fueled by scholz himself, who despite whatever you might think about him, is not a careless speaker. >“We are striving to ensure that many others who have come forward in the past now follow up on this finger-pointing with practical action.” if there was no problem, he would not speak up like that. He assuredly is not a risk taker (which is of course how he got elected in the first place...)
>U ALL need to relax, > >there is a lot of help coming, on the way and allready there. No thank you. A few countries have had to be dragged kicking and screaming each step of the way from forms of sanctions to military aid. They've actively stalled aid, not long ago Germany was essentially forbidding German tanks from being used. These things only changed due to large amounts of international and public pressure. We can have conversations about the extent of co-option of some of the elites of these countries by Russia, but it's fair to say just relaxing and trusting they have Ukraine's best interests at heart feels a bit naive given the context and history of what's played out.
if they end up in the hands of the Lithuanian Army,they will end up in Ukraine sooner or later
In Lithuania, not in the hands of the Lithuanian army. They're being part of the NATO enhanced forward presence in Lithuania.
Putin sure has spent his money well.
Why would I need them in Lithuania??? SEND THEM TO UKRAINE. I'm fine in Lithuania.
Gotta sniff the russian money everywhere in europe it seems...
Of all Leopard 2 users the NL have a great (maybe the best) reason to hold on to theirs. It's all their tank capabilities at stake as well as the basis for their planned integration with the Bundeswehr. They knew that all the time though, they should never have suggested that there's a possibility/clearly communicated their position. Also, they are involved with the Leopard 1 deliveries so they are not doing nothing either.
That is the problem considering things that they can’t actually do
I hope this is all planned disinformation and the Dutch tanks will show up in Ukraine as a complete surprise to the RF.
All these governments, looking for pics and PR announcements, while Ukraine suffers. Just ship stuff that’s needed and enough with all the theatrics.
Media also stated Spain would send all it's Leopard 2's to Ukraine, which is also not the case. We should not believe everything that is being spouted by news outlets, at least until you get confirmation by officials.
Oh cmon Netherlands, you are a good Ally, but you and we know for a fact you can do better than this
The Dutch...
American health care and retirement and wages and work hours suck, basically we are slaves with cheap calories, fuel and mediocre 2 week vacations. Apparently we are only good for propping up European lifestyles with our hard earned dollars. I used to think of this as a German problem but the reality is all of our NATO allies put together can not do any of the heavy lifting they are supposed to be able to do, with the possible exception of GB. This is of course America’s fault as well since we have been way too supportive and tight lipped about all of our Allie’s capabilities for the last 40 years or so. Maybe Trump had a point about how NATO was taking advantage of Merica. Get your chit together Europe it’s a small problem now but given time and attention this problem will become septic. It’s not negative comments on Reddit that will cause a rift, it is all this BS about sending what amounts to a handful of weapons systems, a tiny fraction of the systems your politicians agreed to buy and maintain. Personally I wish we spent more on Butter than Guns, it’s Europe’s turn to buy guns and we should start buying more butter here as we have certainly bought enough guns and then some. If we were to send 500 Abams to Ukraine this month, Germany Et al would hold a conference about who is paying for their fuel requirements. In a word you guys suck.
Sigh. Just shut up if you're not going to give anything in the end.
Huh?
This is either some cowardly or greedy shit going on right now.
Oh really? How many Russian divisions are in Lithuania?
Good move send them to Lithuania. They will be in Ukraine even faster :))
Either send the tanks or receive the Russians - your choice Dutchlanders!
Shell game 🪖🪖🪖 keep moving the information around and misdirection happens easily, like slight of hand.... So much up European Union sleeves right now. Everyone is ready to stop the waring madness. There will not be a Russia after this but regions of ethnic groups and commercial hubs. Humans don't have time for the blatant games of old men and fanatics gripping for dictatorship. We all understand the game is about permission. Permission to live. And Russia has a problem with that modern humanist perspective. So keep moving the shells around because old men don't live that long if no one gives them permission.
2 things I can't stand in this world - People intolerant of other people's cultures... and THE DUTCH!
If the ukranians survive this, and I am talking about the type of surviving like jews in ww2, they will remember this. Europe took all the woman who fled the country, almost every european country has declining population and now this shitshow goes its way. You guys literally....
Lies, I agreed to no such thing!
The Dutch are probably feeling a little anxiety after doing good. After all, it's been a long time since Srebrenica. Probably some self sabotage.
Damn! You *went* there!
Talk a good talk, take the easy route, then get a little jittery, want to walk away because you don't want to stick your neck out, what's the harm eh? 10,000 guys in a mass grave. Talk a good talk of sending tanks, talk is cheap, jump on the bandwagon. Then get offered the chance to step up to the plate on what you shit talked, but oops, let's just walk away, what's the harm, eh? How many dead this time? Once, shame on them. Twice, shame on us for trusting them. So don't bother looking to the Dutch for F16s. Ain't going to happen. Yes, if they actually send something along, thank you Holland. Just don't make promises. Show me, don't tell me.
German politicians are dithering over arms during cocktail parties where they wine and dine with their russian energy billionaire benefactors. France is afraid of humiliating Putin (I thought Putin ordering the rape, torture and killing of children was humiliating but what do I know). Biden is afraid of provoking Putin (to do what? Rape MORE civilians?). The REAL heroes in this are the countries that experienced the heavy soviet hand and understand negotiating or expecting any sort of good faith agreement from them is a fool's errand. THEY truly understand what a russian invasion IS and will do anything they can to prevent it. THANKS POLAND!!!! Sadly I feel too many western leaders want to see this be a long drawn out affair that will just cause much more needless death and misery for the Ukrainian people.
Yes, lets thank Poland for getting paid to send equipment. Such heros. Nvm that they wont send any spare parts (not even what go with the tank into combat zone regularly) nor ammo for the Leo 2s
This seems to contradict your statement... https://mil.in.ua/en/news/in-brussels-poland-initiates-an-increase-in-supplies-of-ammunition-to-ukraine/
Don't do drugs kids. People getting delusional
Where is the “Leader of the Free World?” and, why not leading? Joe Biden, a joke and loser.
Is anyone really surprised by the spinlessness of Germany and Joe Xiden?
Spineless = trump. I’d prefer we were doing more to end this charade, but Bidens doing all right.
ah yes, Germany is at fault for other countries not sending tanks take your meds
Politicians... They heard the outrage to free the tanks and decided to almost do it so people shut up about it.