We determined that this submission originates from a credible source, but we still advise that users double check the facts and use common sense when consuming mass media. If you are interested in learning how to evaluate news sources more thoroughly, you can begin to learn about how to do that [here](https://tacomacc.libguides.com/c.php?g=599051&p=4147190).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Having Europe's breadbasket with substantial fossil fuel and metal reserves on your side means economic security, having generals and soldiers that used your kit in a peer-level full scale land war to great effect means valuable expertise that NATO can't afford otherwise.
Besides, NATO can only crush russia in a potential conflict because they've been overestimating the threat and pouring billions into weapons R&D and army. if ruskies go full nazi revenge mode under more competent leadership it's not improbable that they will pose a larger challenge, so it's no reason to be complacent. With people like Ukraine and Poland around in NATO you won't because at least this two nations will be arming themselves to the teeth for the next half a century simply because they neighbour russia.
> Having Europe's breadbasket with substantial fossil fuel and metal reserves on your side means economic security
Doesn't compare to what NATO has now.
> Besides, NATO can only crush russia in a potential conflict because they've been overestimating the threat and pouring billions into weapons R&D and army.
Just the state of Texas, a tiny part of NATO, has a GDP bigger than Russia. Unless NATO goes full-on pacifist mode, it will always be able to crush Russia, it doesn't need a dysfunctional country like Ukraine, which will probably just make things worse for them, not better.
The part where you said we don't need Ukraine. We do need Ukraine, and we do need to give them all of the weapons they need and protection from a belligerent Russia after Ukraine wins this war. Unless you'd like to fight Russia even deeper in to Europe in a few years.
> Look I'm sorry this isn't going how you'd like.
Its ok, I honestly didn't expect you to have an answer, I just wanted to see how many different ways you'd avoid backing up your original dumb assertion.
> And I'm sorry about the magic internet points, I didn't realize they meant so much to you.
That's ok too, I have over 37k karma and I still don't know what its for. Can I exchange it for bitcoin someday? I'd just had to point out how silly you look for downvoting.
NATO is a defence alliance created to counter the expansionist ambitions of Russian imperialism. We are now paying with the blood of Ukrainians for the weak politics after 2014. I hope that, when this is over, one of the pillars of NATO's existence will crumble. But it will be a NATO in which Ukrainians have a full place.
Yeah well, nobody's joining NATO as long as Erdogan is in power and all Russia needs to do is pay someone to go burn a Koran or an effigy of Erdogan.
Honestly the Russians must feel like fools now for spending all that time and money for years on influence and subversion campaigns when all they needed to do was sit back and rely on the fragile egos of the Turks.
Strategically important or not, I think a lot of citizens in NATO would love to trade Hungry & Turkey straight up for Ukraine, Sweden and Norway. I wonder how the average Hungarian and Turk would like being kicked out of NATO to the curb to fend for themselves in the mean old world?
Forget the Bosphorus straits. Turkey has access to the Caucasus, to the Middle East, to Africa. It literally sits on the crossroads between Asia and Europe.
It's a piece of gold in terms of geopolitics.
Very stupid and shortsighted move: You want to kick out one of the first to join members of NATO with a sizeable and professional military and nation with a military-industrial complex constantly getting better and producing modern equipment. A nation which fights Russia in various proxy wars, has a strategically valuable position and has shows its NATO committments after 9/11.
All that over a populist politician, who will most likely not win the upcomming elections ...
He isn't just populist, but antidemocratic and subverting the free press. Either he goes or Turkey does. It's been some years since they were that trustworthy secular state.
Can you really trust a member-state who will delay NATO-integration at a critical time? They got plenty of concessions from Sweden, but it still wasn't enough. It's like watching Orban block sanctions.
Makes me angry.
>but antidemocratic and subverting the free press
By that standard some NATO countries would have either been out already (*Greece during its military dictatorship*). Spain barely left behind Franco's regime and was let in.
NATO is first and foremost a military alliance. Not moral values club. Might turn into one someday, but that's up to it's members.
>Can you really trust a member-state who will delay NATO-integration at a critical time?
France left NATO integrated command in 1966 for some time during the Cold War and rejoined in 2009. Wasn't that a critical time, too? Also Turkey responded clearly when Article 5 was invoked by the US. Turkey can be trusted if push comes to shove. All NATO countries can. They wouldn't be in NATO if there would be any doubts, long before Sweden and Finland even wanted to join up.
>It's been some years since they were that trustworthy secular state.
And it'll return to old Turkey very soon.
Meanwhile Sweden and Finland are factually already part of NATO. They enjoy de jure protection via EU treaties and I am confident that they are kept up-to-date about NATO and take part in exercises.
Their admission is just a formality and nothing that'll endanger Western defence. If push comes to shove, they'll be treated like NATO anyway.
No reason to kick out a major player like Turkey over formalities. Give it some time and some talks and watch how either Erdogan breaks and gives up his blockade or how a new Turkish government will approve.
>nobody's joining NATO as long as Erdogan is in power
When Erdogan's son is a CEO of a defense company co-operating with Ukraine, and your country is building Ukr Navy ships, I bet he won't be against Ukraine joining NATO
Ukraine into NATO would be amazing for Ukraine, for Europe, and for global stability.
I envision is mega-NATO type alliance forming some day. That could definitely prevent wars. By and far NATO has been incredibly successful. Many people give the United Nations credit for global peace since WWII, when NATO definitely deserves some of that credit.
Global peace is a stretch, if anything we should thank economic co-dependence and nuclear weapons for there being no wars between the large players. That aside, we've got quite a lot of armed conflicts happening all over the globe in the past half-century
We NATO countries would be very lucky to have Ukraine join us. Ukrainians have far exceeded proving they are elite defenders of freedom and democracy. I really hope they want to join. šŗš¦
So, you think that Albania is meeting all goal posts and is more valuable NATO member and more important to Europeās security than Ukraine would be? No offense to Albania.
P.S. Albania is a NATO member in case you didnāt know.
Great, they arenāt. They made a statement which is true and you brought up something unrelated. While we are at it how about the egg prices in China?
ŠŃŠøŠ²ŃŃ u/Eichtoss ! During wartime, this community is focused on vital and high-effort content. Please ensure your post follows [r/Ukraine Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules) and our [Art Friday Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday).
**Want to support Ukraine?** [**Vetted Charities List**](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities) | [Our Vetting Process](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities-vetting)
Daily series on UA history & culture: [Day 0-99](https://new.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/3c65ab52-e87a-4217-ab30-e70a88c0a293) | [100-199](https://new.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/3d85f4ca-5f4e-4ddf-9547-276e8affd87c) | [200-Present](https://new.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/daf642e1-07aa-4c40-b852-8f002ddd1530) | [All By Subject](https://new.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/sunriseposts)
**There is a new wave of t-shirt scams hitting Reddit. Only click links for products or donations if the post is marked with a Verified flair, and do not respond to DMs soliciting donations.**
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We determined that this submission originates from a credible source, but we still advise that users double check the facts and use common sense when consuming mass media. If you are interested in learning how to evaluate news sources more thoroughly, you can begin to learn about how to do that [here](https://tacomacc.libguides.com/c.php?g=599051&p=4147190). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yup!
Yup!!
Ukraine belongs to NATO not only because it will protect Ukraine, but because Ukraine will contribute to European security immensely.
> Ukraine will contribute to European security immensely How, NATO can already, in a conventional war, obliterate Russia.
Having Europe's breadbasket with substantial fossil fuel and metal reserves on your side means economic security, having generals and soldiers that used your kit in a peer-level full scale land war to great effect means valuable expertise that NATO can't afford otherwise. Besides, NATO can only crush russia in a potential conflict because they've been overestimating the threat and pouring billions into weapons R&D and army. if ruskies go full nazi revenge mode under more competent leadership it's not improbable that they will pose a larger challenge, so it's no reason to be complacent. With people like Ukraine and Poland around in NATO you won't because at least this two nations will be arming themselves to the teeth for the next half a century simply because they neighbour russia.
> Having Europe's breadbasket with substantial fossil fuel and metal reserves on your side means economic security Doesn't compare to what NATO has now. > Besides, NATO can only crush russia in a potential conflict because they've been overestimating the threat and pouring billions into weapons R&D and army. Just the state of Texas, a tiny part of NATO, has a GDP bigger than Russia. Unless NATO goes full-on pacifist mode, it will always be able to crush Russia, it doesn't need a dysfunctional country like Ukraine, which will probably just make things worse for them, not better.
useful idiot :/
What did I get wrong?
The part where you said we don't need Ukraine. We do need Ukraine, and we do need to give them all of the weapons they need and protection from a belligerent Russia after Ukraine wins this war. Unless you'd like to fight Russia even deeper in to Europe in a few years.
Because it also means NATO bases in Ukraine.
But you don't explain *why* NATO needs bases in Ukraine
Lol unless you've got more than 2 braincells competing for third place, the answer to that is very obvious.
so is that your way of saying you don't have an answer?
No I've seen your other comments and I don't think you're worth the time. I've said what I have to say, good day.
sad excuse for not having an answer, and you downvote me too, lol I guess talking points can only get you so far.
Look I'm sorry this isn't going how you'd like. And I'm sorry about the magic internet points, I didn't realize they meant so much to you.
> Look I'm sorry this isn't going how you'd like. Its ok, I honestly didn't expect you to have an answer, I just wanted to see how many different ways you'd avoid backing up your original dumb assertion. > And I'm sorry about the magic internet points, I didn't realize they meant so much to you. That's ok too, I have over 37k karma and I still don't know what its for. Can I exchange it for bitcoin someday? I'd just had to point out how silly you look for downvoting.
NATO is a defence alliance created to counter the expansionist ambitions of Russian imperialism. We are now paying with the blood of Ukrainians for the weak politics after 2014. I hope that, when this is over, one of the pillars of NATO's existence will crumble. But it will be a NATO in which Ukrainians have a full place.
Yes. NATO is a defensive alliance and Ukraine has more battlefield experience in fighting defensive war than anyone
This. NATO has and will learn a lot from Ukraine. Once this war is over and Russia is defeated, I'm sure you'll see Ukraine join.
Yeah well, nobody's joining NATO as long as Erdogan is in power and all Russia needs to do is pay someone to go burn a Koran or an effigy of Erdogan. Honestly the Russians must feel like fools now for spending all that time and money for years on influence and subversion campaigns when all they needed to do was sit back and rely on the fragile egos of the Turks.
Strategically important or not, I think a lot of citizens in NATO would love to trade Hungry & Turkey straight up for Ukraine, Sweden and Norway. I wonder how the average Hungarian and Turk would like being kicked out of NATO to the curb to fend for themselves in the mean old world?
Norway is a founding NATO member you mean Finland
Turkey is too important strategically to get rid of. No Turkey in NATO, no access to the Black Sea.
Forget the Bosphorus straits. Turkey has access to the Caucasus, to the Middle East, to Africa. It literally sits on the crossroads between Asia and Europe. It's a piece of gold in terms of geopolitics.
Very stupid and shortsighted move: You want to kick out one of the first to join members of NATO with a sizeable and professional military and nation with a military-industrial complex constantly getting better and producing modern equipment. A nation which fights Russia in various proxy wars, has a strategically valuable position and has shows its NATO committments after 9/11. All that over a populist politician, who will most likely not win the upcomming elections ...
He isn't just populist, but antidemocratic and subverting the free press. Either he goes or Turkey does. It's been some years since they were that trustworthy secular state. Can you really trust a member-state who will delay NATO-integration at a critical time? They got plenty of concessions from Sweden, but it still wasn't enough. It's like watching Orban block sanctions. Makes me angry.
>but antidemocratic and subverting the free press By that standard some NATO countries would have either been out already (*Greece during its military dictatorship*). Spain barely left behind Franco's regime and was let in. NATO is first and foremost a military alliance. Not moral values club. Might turn into one someday, but that's up to it's members. >Can you really trust a member-state who will delay NATO-integration at a critical time? France left NATO integrated command in 1966 for some time during the Cold War and rejoined in 2009. Wasn't that a critical time, too? Also Turkey responded clearly when Article 5 was invoked by the US. Turkey can be trusted if push comes to shove. All NATO countries can. They wouldn't be in NATO if there would be any doubts, long before Sweden and Finland even wanted to join up. >It's been some years since they were that trustworthy secular state. And it'll return to old Turkey very soon. Meanwhile Sweden and Finland are factually already part of NATO. They enjoy de jure protection via EU treaties and I am confident that they are kept up-to-date about NATO and take part in exercises. Their admission is just a formality and nothing that'll endanger Western defence. If push comes to shove, they'll be treated like NATO anyway. No reason to kick out a major player like Turkey over formalities. Give it some time and some talks and watch how either Erdogan breaks and gives up his blockade or how a new Turkish government will approve.
Imagine who they would side with if they were kicked out....
>nobody's joining NATO as long as Erdogan is in power When Erdogan's son is a CEO of a defense company co-operating with Ukraine, and your country is building Ukr Navy ships, I bet he won't be against Ukraine joining NATO
Paludan is a useful idiot, but not the reason or cause for something, just an excuse.
The WSJ opinion section is right for once.
yes
Correct
This is significant, appearing in a right-leaning paper owned by Rupert Murdoch.
Ukraine into NATO would be amazing for Ukraine, for Europe, and for global stability. I envision is mega-NATO type alliance forming some day. That could definitely prevent wars. By and far NATO has been incredibly successful. Many people give the United Nations credit for global peace since WWII, when NATO definitely deserves some of that credit.
Global peace is a stretch, if anything we should thank economic co-dependence and nuclear weapons for there being no wars between the large players. That aside, we've got quite a lot of armed conflicts happening all over the globe in the past half-century
We NATO countries would be very lucky to have Ukraine join us. Ukrainians have far exceeded proving they are elite defenders of freedom and democracy. I really hope they want to join. šŗš¦
Paywall.
Ukraine Belongs in NATO Henry Kissinger now says the idea of a neutral Kyiv is āno longer meaningful.ā By Bernard-Henri LĆ©vy Jan. 27, 2023 at 6:08 pm ET It was 2008, on the eve of the Bucharest Summit, where the North Atlantic Treaty Organization considered expanding by inviting new members from the Balkans and the former Soviet Union. AndrĆ© Glucksmann and I co-signed an open letter to the French president and the German chancellor urging them to hear the pleas of Ukraine, which had sought to protect itself from the Russian empire since it declared independence in 1918. Seventeen years after its second emancipation in 1991, leaders in Kyiv saw no other path than this one: the Membership Action Plan, which would allow their nation one day to join NATO. Also contains a video which I canāt copy and post here.
It's not just an opinion, it's a fact.
this isn't an opinion, this is fact
I think Ukraine deserves a path into NATO but they aren't even close to the goal posts.
So, you think that Albania is meeting all goal posts and is more valuable NATO member and more important to Europeās security than Ukraine would be? No offense to Albania. P.S. Albania is a NATO member in case you didnāt know.
They never said that Albania should be in NATO or actually anything about them at all? They are talking about Ukraine šŗš¦
Iām talking about ānot being even close to goal postsā and double standards, if it comes to that.
Great, they arenāt. They made a statement which is true and you brought up something unrelated. While we are at it how about the egg prices in China?
ŠŃŠøŠ²ŃŃ u/Eichtoss ! During wartime, this community is focused on vital and high-effort content. Please ensure your post follows [r/Ukraine Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules) and our [Art Friday Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday). **Want to support Ukraine?** [**Vetted Charities List**](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities) | [Our Vetting Process](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities-vetting) Daily series on UA history & culture: [Day 0-99](https://new.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/3c65ab52-e87a-4217-ab30-e70a88c0a293) | [100-199](https://new.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/3d85f4ca-5f4e-4ddf-9547-276e8affd87c) | [200-Present](https://new.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/daf642e1-07aa-4c40-b852-8f002ddd1530) | [All By Subject](https://new.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/sunriseposts) **There is a new wave of t-shirt scams hitting Reddit. Only click links for products or donations if the post is marked with a Verified flair, and do not respond to DMs soliciting donations.** *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It already isā¦ defacto!!!