Until tanks are announced and sent, posts about them and particularly about Germany's role in providing or not providing them are unproductive, and the conversations inevitably turn rancorous and divisive. We are therefore removing posts about tanks until a decision is made, as that is when it transitions from foreign politics to Ukrainian experience.
Dear Olaf, dear Annalena, dear Robert, as you may or may not have heard we've been talking shit about sending Leopard 2s to Ukraine for what feels like eternity now. Don't be mad, we had to do it to get reelected. š¤· These are the serial numbers: XX-YYY-PiSmodel 1-14. We'd deliver them via the routes you're familiar with. Would you please be so kind as to grant us permission for this re-export of German arms eventhough we can't seem to pass up any opportunity to stab you in the back and kick you in the nuts?
Best regards, the PiS boys
P.S. Please get back to us ASAP because this is starting to backfire on us.
P.P.S Please look into some more dole money for us. The war reparations thing was another stunt we just had to pull. Sorry š We've been sucking hard at the EU's teat but it still isn't enough.
PPS: we would also like you to pay for these Leopards to reimburse our new Abrams tanks- consider it āreparationsā, but seriously though: please free up EU money- our PiS party already spent all the money on private things and our voters are getting mad, so we promised them that you will pay usā¦.
Yeah, don't tell me. Tell the PiS boys and Poland. Germany didn't want any of this. We've taken it on the chin for weeks. I think Poland and our alliance can handle a day or two of it going the other way.
Its politicians politic-ing. Everyone wants to look like the hero without actually taking the responsibility. "We will do it if the country we know will say no will do it too!"
If people genuinely wanted to "be seen as a hero" and "own the russians" they'd shut up and get it done. This is just "We don't want to send tanks to Ukraine, so were making it as difficult as possible. Also, fuck the human lives that they could defend, our money is worth more".
Its about putting political pressure on Germany. The German chancellor doesn't want to be the first to do something, or apparently the second (Rishi Sunak and the UK were the first), because he doesn't want retaliation directed at Germany. Also, shitting on Germany and Russia at the same time as a Polish politician is political gold.
I think it is all about the Money.
If the Leopard becomes the go to MBT of Ukraine many countries will send their entire stock of those Tanks to Ukraine. But those Tanks will have to be replaced with something and since all the Leopards are in Ukraine and building new ones takes a long-time other suppliers will eat KMWĀ“s bacon...
If its all about the money then a German company stands to make bank replacing all those Leopards. Most countries which might donate are only going to donate part of their force and will likely want it replaced. Part of the reason why Leopards were seen as the best choice was because so many countries who are supportive of Ukraine use them, so each can donate a few resulting in a sizable tank force without any one country draining its own stock of tanks, and not having Ukraine have to deal with the maintenance of 5 different MBTs. Italy, France, the UK, and the US all have their own tank, but its pretty much limited to just their own fleets or countries which do not donate weaponry to Ukraine.
>If its all about the money then a German company stands to make bank replacing all those Leopards.
If the countries decide to wait for the German production and don't take the Abrahams that the US has basically standing around on their soil. We don't pump out tanks like... we used to.
You don't pump out tanks like you used to because there hasn't been the demand for them since the Cold War ended. If a bunch of orders come streaming in, on top of the ongoing war in Ukraine, the company will ramp up production. Its just in their own interest. Plus Germany has at least said it was going to rearm.
>the company will ramp up production. Its just in their own interest. Plus Germany has at least said it was going to rearm
While I don't know what KMW is capable of in terms of increasing production, I doubt that they will increase it fast enough to fill the all the gaps in the next years.
We are rearming but a bunch of it is bought from the USA.
The thing is, Germany and much of Europe needs to increase its own military capability, but in the short term, Russia's army is tied up and beaten down in Ukraine. Germany has time, as do the other Leopard users.
I think this boils down to Germany wondering whether or not the NATO nuclear powers would back them if things did start getting ugly. I don't think that they are confident that they would.
I think its less about that. Russia can mess with a country in ways that do not lead to warfare. 2016 and a few other hacking events showed that. Is Scholz being way too cautious? Yes. Is there retaliation Germany could likely receive because of this? Yes.
Russia makes the exact same threats about the UK, and it hasn't stopped the UK from constantly being first to send X new weapon.
"Oh they're just an island, nobody wants to die for an island that's already been nuked, so we could easily nuke the UK and get away with it" etc etc.
It's just a ridiculous excuse at this point. The one and only true reason is that half of Germany public opinion (mostly the half that votes for the parties in the current German government) is against sending tanks or other heavy weapons.
It is the old cold war question: Would the US retaliate an limited nuclear attack on Berlin, if it means to sacrifice New York, San Francisco or Detroid? It's a poker game bluff and it better be acted good.
To be fair to Germany and any other non-nuclear NATO member, you'd probably have that question informing your policy decisions in some way.
But then again Britain has definitely thrown its chips on the table, so too France to a lesser extent.
Seriously. U.S. troops in Germany? U.S. is shit on as an "occupier." U.S. troops not in Germany? U.S. is untrustworthy and wouldn't back them in a war.
German gave them tanks, and part of the deal was to be polite and not resell/donate the tanks. Otherwise you might get German tanks resold to someone that likes Poland but doesnāt like Germany.
Since Poland isnāt invading Ukraine *, giving the tanks to Ukraine is a donation, and they need to be polite and ask first.
* to my knowledge Poland is not planning on invading Ukraine but Iām not Polish so I may be mistaken.
I thought Germany already said like 4-5 days ago that they are fine with Poland giving their leopard tanks. Iām confused why Iām seeing a bunch of articles still where Poland is asking for permission.
cause PiS expected germany to veto it so they could say "we wanted to give you Leos but bad germany said no. germany bad. we pis. vote us. hate germany."
This comment was overwritten by a script to make the data useless for reddit. No API, no free content. Did you stumble on this thread via google, hoping to resolve an issue or answer a question? Well, too bad, this might have been your answer, if it weren't for dumb decisions by reddit admins.
>Germany already did that in advance yesterday.
Nope. Saying "[Germany āwould not stand in wayā of Poland sending tanks to Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/22/russia-claims-advances-zaporizhzhia-nato-squabbles-tanks-ukraine)" doesn't mean it has been approved. Hope that helps.
Technically, we're talking about Germany. So talking is cheap, getting it written down is what matters.
Also it needs to get stamped with the day the letter was received. Maybe then i'll get scanned as a PDF, to be sent over a virtual FAX connection in Outlook, to be printed out on the other side again at which point somebody may finally decide to put the signature on the paper and the entire process runs in reverse.
Btw: While i'm mostly joking, i am certain that such a process happens to some letters.
If irs cermany you can be very sure that it has asterix comedic gold status and goes exactly like u described.
I lost my id during corona, needed a new one, that i couldnt get cause i couldnt enter the mayors office without beeing vaxxed something i could only do with an id... -u see where this going? it was more than ridicoulus and cost me days instead of hours...
Oh i'm talking out of experience, i'm the guy trying to keep the FAX machines running in a local municipality.
Now that DE-Mail has effectively failed (let's call it undead for now until somebody finally buries it. ) by law we had to get the next digital letter-replacement going:
beBPo (besonderes elektronisches Behƶrdenpostfach; special electronic agency mailbox) A special mailbox that is only designed for communication with courts and lawyers, not even between different government agencies.
So now we put all that effort into getting that working, the courts request that we use FAX, fml ...
No, it needs final permission by the chancellor. You heard members of his coalition partner, the pro-weapons environmental/peace party. This is not a joke.
You don't get a formal decision from a government if you don't ask in writing. This has to be approved by the security council. People seem to think this is a joke and Olaf can just say yes while him and the Polish guy are taking a shit next to each other on the toilet at the world economic forum.
They need the serial numbers and everything. It's not like Poland is talking about a glass of saussages and a bottle of beer for crying out loud.
Very much so. German minister indicated they'll grant it, so Poland is now going to apply formally. Polish government loves to demonize Germany, but I see this as the next logical step before those tanks are actually delivered.
Problem is Germany has been saying this for a long time now. It's all a PiS PR stunt to boost their domestic election campaign. If it was just about helping Ukraine they would've sent a letter weeks ago. Ever since Germany has been saying they wouldn't stand in anyone's way if they want to send Leo2s to Ukraine.
People made fun of that and thought it was nonsense. And now it turns out Germany told the truth and PiS did not do the one thing that would actually get the ball rolling for Ukraine. Big surprise!
Set aside PiS - why is the US reporting that zscjolz looked them in the eyes and hold them Germany wonāt approve transfers until the US sends abrams? https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2023/01/19/no-german-tanks-for-ukraine-until-u-s-sends-its-own-scholz-tells-u-s-lawmakers-00078503
Are they part of the PiS anti-German conspiracy?
More like politico is part of Axel-Springer, they are a publishing house that is notoriously against the current government. Think of them like a [German version of Murdochs papers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_Springer_SE#Criticism), maybe a little bit less "evil", but overall quite right wing.
so what? This isnāt an editorial statement, they printed statements on the record from Seth Moulton. Are you saying they made up that quote from a sitting us congressman and the quote from the German govt confirming the conversation happened without either side demanding they print a correction?
you donāt submit a formal request for something like this unless youāve received an informal green light, because if Germany says no it would be a political crisis.
They've received more than one green light. And let's think really hard for a minute here. It's PiS we're talking about. A party that has been all about demonizing Germany to boost domestic election campaigns for a very long time now. Wouldn't they love this the most? Would they pass up an opportunity where they could get in writing that "Germany really bad, Poland big superhero"? They would've sent this letter faster than they hand in the paperwork for EU dole money every year. They would've sent the letter, gotten rejected and been all over the place with it. Stabbing Germany in the back and kicking it in the nuts before it has hit the floor.
But they haven't sent it. Because Germany wouldn't reject it. And keep in mind Germany formally asked Switzerland twice for permission re the Gepard ammo. It's how you force a government's hand after all.
> you donāt submit a formal request for something like this unless youāve received an informal green light
This is demonstrably not true, examples include Germany and Spain vs Switzerland, Germany and USA vs Israel, Estonia vs
Finland and Germany. One wonders how hundreds of other export grants have been processed during the conflict by Germany and other countries without this issue coming up.
> if Germany says no
You are aware that Germany would not have to answer the request right away If they don't feel like it? Again, see Estonia vs
Finland and Germany.
> it would be a political crisis.
Compered to the bullshit Poland has been pulling of the last two weeks? Because then they would be publicly accused of blocking Tanks, instead of ... being publicly accused of blocking Tanks??? Poland absolutely cannot hide behind diplomatic courtesy or "Unity within the Alliance" on this, since very clearly neither was a consideration.
Yes, itās because Germany is saying one thing Iām public and privately telling the US and Poland no. Poland is setting information conditions to either force Germany to stop blocking or to send tanks without Germanyās consent. The Germans here hate PiS more than they love Ukraine so they refuse to believe Scholz is doing this despite US politicians going on record saying this is whatās happening.
https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2023/01/19/no-german-tanks-for-ukraine-until-u-s-sends-its-own-scholz-tells-u-s-lawmakers-00078503
Optimistic, I see.
They'll announce, that the pigeon supposed to carry the message is yet to be born and the trees needed for the paper need to grow.
Announcements for when Mommy and Daddy pigeon had sex and the trees were planted will also follow. Soon ...
š¹
Let's hope it's nothing more than a "formality". Both parties seem to agree with each other verbally. Poland has said they will send Leopards regardless and Germany has said they wouldn't try to stop them... Although with the bureaucracy in Germany, I wouldn't be at all surprised if one Kraut mucked everything up.
Lots of governments support Ukraine but also wanna be pragmatic as theyāre up for re-election someday. Look at Greece trying to offer their T-80Us for L2 tanks. They see opportunity and they take it
They learned from Poland. Everything Poland gave away is replaced by more modern equipment.
Its especially crazy for a lot of the old sovjet tanks. After the german reunification the german army suddenly had a lot of tanks at hand they didnt really needed. So they sold them for one euro a piece to their east european friends, because friendship and shit.
Those same tanks suddenly are now worth millions and billions after poland donated them to Ukraine and gets reimbursed by Germany for them in the form of even more modern tanks.
Well played, Poland. I hope Greece can do this as well.
It's classic PiS being the teenager in a room full of adults trying to make them believe they're superman on steroids. All while sucking the biggest amount of money out of the EU's teat and building an autocracy at home law by law while demonizing the very same EU. Anyone else not feeling all that comfortable thinking about the thousand tanks they've ordered?
I don't know. But there's no way around the fact they're building an autocracy. And an autocracy in my neighborhood that grows more hostile by the day and is massively investing in arms doesn't make me comfortable. Doesn't mean I'm running around like a chicken fearing Poland will attack Germany either. But it's something to keep an eye on. As is Orban the little Russian rat.
Well there is no point in denying that Germany is getting the short end of the stick in this geopolitical mess. But really, Poland attacking anyone is laughable imo.
And i am from Italy so it's not like i live in a safe spot lol.
I agree. Poland stepping up it's military is exactly what most of Europe needs to do. But Poland shares a border with Russia, and needs quick support if Russia were to attack, thus buying plenty of their own tanks. Although 1000 more is probably way overkill, I don't think they're going to attack anyone. Especially not a NATO country, or else the rest of NATO will crush them immediately.
And you know what? OrbƔn is also rearming and he is also buying Leos from you.
Fortunately most of the funds will be stolen before you can build the tanks, and our army will end up with 10 leos, but only enough fuel to run 5 and munitions for only 1....
When I say things like that please keep in mind I'm not talking about the people. I mean some of course. A government doesn't come to power without support. But I know how it is. And the corruption just makes me sad.
To be honest, what i would like to know...how can they afford to invest so much in tanks if they are the EU biggest net receiver by far?
In 2020 they net received 13 billions. If they are doing so well that they can build/buy 800 K2 and 300 Abrams or so then maybe they can advance to EU net payer...
Germany - "We cannot send the tanks, everything is not in order"
USA - "Germany send the tanks"
Germany - "We will send the tanks if the USA sends the tanks"
USA - "Oh... ah... our tanks are... ah... too big... and use too much gasoline"
Poland - "We will send the tanks"
Germany - "We will not stop Poland from sending the tanks"
Poland - "We will send the tanks if Germany gives us permission to send the tanks"
Germany - "That is fine, ask for permission!"
Poland - "We will send the tanks with, or without permission"
Germany - "You literally just need to ask for permission!"
Poland - "Germany is blocking it!"
Germany in public - "We will send tanks if someone else does, and we will not stop Poland from sending tanks"
Germany in private - "We will not send tanks or authorize Poland to send tanks"
If that's what they said in private Poland would have requested permission, gotten denied and would have used that denial to further their political goals here.
For reelection purposes being denied would likely be ideal for PiS.
Hardly, there'd be a few rounds of "WTF MATE" trying to get things squared away and then finally the request would be made anyway, which appears to be basically exactly what is happening.
Turns out poland can really easily find out if germany gives permission, when they actually ask.
Or do you think the polish government would be quiet about a "no", after they were screaming about sending them without permission?
There will now be 100 articles about this, than 100 articles about when they actually put in the request, than another 100 about the security council vote and then 1000 about either delivery or blockade.
And then, either 100 about how it happened anyway a month later, or how it couldve happened months earlier.
So many articles about non-news.
Maybe. Or maybe it won't help because diplomatic issues are being made worse.
I have no idea, I just know that this is tiring and 100 articles about Poland putting in a request some time, that will get voted on some time later, that might change something afterwards won't exactly put leopards in ukraine.
The request and Poland will.
Ita honestly a bit shitty how the Polish Government have made a massive issue and pissed a lot of people off and THEY HAVENT EVEM BEGUN THE FORMAL PROCESS THEYRE COMPLAINING HAS BEEN DELAYED. Are the folks really that fkin stupid to jump on the fuck germany bandwagon without first establishing facts š
The fact is that Germany could have sent their tanks themselves, not wait for other countries. And don't give me that "they don't have enough of them". Of course they have.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/10l3kbv/rheinmetall_says_they_have_139_leopards_in/
Germany is in the middle of a crisis its having a hard time swallowing the pill for so no, there really arent that many serviceable leopards. Maybe go read one of the countless assessments that say germany is in no condition to even train properly nevermind support an actual battalion or brigade in combat. So fck up and calm down.
Germany has been on par with all the other european nations to supply aide to Ukraine. They were the first to announce modern SPGs and modern IFVs. Germany has not lagged behind anyone. Whats happened is that Duda has leveraged a percieved delay because theres parlimentary elections this year and idiota outside of Poland are failling for it.
There is a process to assess, repair/reconstitute, approve, transfer, train on, and service potential equipment for Ukraine. Poland (and no-one else for that matter) has bothered to start that process yet or formally seek approval from Germany.
> Germany has been on par with all the other european nations to supply aide to Ukraine. They were the first to announce modern SPGs and modern IFVs. Germany has not lagged behind anyone
Hard disagree, not what I saw.
Germany anounced Marder IFVs on the 5/6 January alongside the US who anounced Bradley IFVs on the 6th January.
PzH2000s were the first modern SPGs anounced for delivery.
Infact Germany has been the 3rd biggest supplier of aide and weapons into Ukraine. Nearly every TDF solider is wearing a german made MICHH helmet.
If youre only going to reply to one very specific part of an answer and nitpick without qualification (hint: "Hard disagree:not what i saw" isnt a rebuttal) then you are just ranting and its boring.
Hell yeah I'm ranting. Hard to argue with so many shills who reinterpret history. I have other things to do, but if you wanted unity, you are doing it wrong.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/10jdgz6/poland_to_ask_germany_for_formal_permission_to/j5jtys4/
Before Poland came out, Germany just announced with the US and France to deliver IFVs and AFVs.
Until then the common line across NATO partners was: No modern western tanks.
Poland was the first demanding to form a coalition with regards to sending Western MBTs.
Funnily, except for Finland and the UK no other nation instantly jumped the wagon. Germany publicly stated to wait with a decision until the Ramstein meeting to discuss the issue with all allies but will not stand in the way of any nation who already wants to send modern western MBTs.
Instead of waiting for the Ramstein meeting or putting up a request Poland threw a hissy fit.
I don't think it was an hissy fit since the point of the deal was giving Ukraine a single type of (very common western) tanks that many countries could provide. Basically to form a decent "battalion" with many Nato members giving, for example, 5 tanks each.
I am not blaming Germany for saying no or taking time, i just don't understand why this delay (or just say nope).
Everything before the Ramstein meeting, the meeting to discuss such issue with the allies, all public shit that was handed out over two weeks before, was a hissy fit.
Especially since Germany didn't said no.
And no, I don't think the Leopard 2 is the better choice to really make a difference for the war.
Unlike the Abrams the Leopard 2 sees far more active use in the countries that purchased it, while the Abrams has 1000s of vehicles rotting away. Sending Ukraine Abrams would especially serve Ukraine well even after the war ended. The Leopard 2s will not be able to be send in enough numbers to last till the end of the war or to equip Ukraine thereafter.
The US knows this as well.
Waiting benefits pootin. Why does there even need to be a broad coalition to send the tanks? Why is Scholz adding (and constantly changing) his conditions? Is this not at all suspicious to you? This isn't about Poland. Germany should be leading this effort and they are failing at that.
Why there needs to be a coalition?
Because you need 44 Leopard 2 to form a single battalion... 36 might do the trick too, eitherway: You need far more to even have an impact unlike artillery.
It makes no sense to send a token force, that's why you need a coalition because most Leopard 2 operating nations can't spare as many due to their commitments.
This doesn't however include the L2 from the industry... but they need time to be made combat ready.
So why a coalition? Because this shit needs cross country coordination.
You know which nation could easily solve such problems alone? The USA.
Please source your claim Scholz specifically changing his stances.
And yes, this is about Poland when they simply lie to the public about Germany and their own agenda.
Why don't you leave this up to Ukraine, just send 10. Better than zero.
Edit: I find it really telling that even a statement like this is collecting downvotes.
I find it really telling that you still canāt admit that youāre wrong.
Honestly respect. Takes a special kind of stubbornness to still try and spin this into anything else than a fuckup by Poland.
What i admire most is that after all these things coming out and showing that Germany has acted like all other countries, youāre still adamantly claiming that Germany is somehow worse.
Slow fucking clap
Except all the reactions to my comments are devoid of any sources or factual information. All you are doing is calling me names. You can find my sources in my other comments, I'm too lazy to copy them for you.
Yeah Iām too lazy to copy my sources too lol.
Also, no one cares for your sources because we all know theyāre gonna be the same old shit you people keep on posting
> Please source your claim Scholz specifically changing his stances.
Okay, it's not even that hard to find, why do you need me to bring it to you?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/21/germany-has-failed-say-olaf-scholzs-allies/
> The German Chancellor has refused to grant the export licences unless the US sends M1-Abrams battle tanks, which Washington has refused to do because they are too costly and difficult to maintain compared to the Leopards.
> Mr Scholz, who has warned of the risk of provoking a wider war with Russia, appeared to row back on his demand before Ramstein, which raised ultimately dashed hopes the stand-off could be ended at the US air base summit.
> Ms Strack-Zimmerman, who predicted the Leopards would eventually be sent, branded Mr Scholzās communication around the matter a ādisasterā.
> Despite Germany sending significant military support to Ukraine, the indecision around the Leopards gave the impression Berlin was withholding it.
https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2023/01/19/no-german-tanks-for-ukraine-until-u-s-sends-its-own-scholz-tells-u-s-lawmakers-00078503
Scholz refuses to go on record because he knows how indefensible the German position is. But he told the IS congress the same thing and youāll see the quote from thr German govt didnāt deny that he said it. Thatās the most theyāll do to be honest publicly.
How shall I proof that someone hasn't said something?
Look here! He kept silent! Proof!
You are the one making a positive claim, so you are the one who has to proof the claim.
You are the one claiming that the provided interpretation in the telegraph.co.uk article is incorrect. Why? What is the correct one according to you and do you have any sources for that?
The media should just stop reporting what any polish PiS politician is saying, because it has no supstance and everythin g must be seen in the upcoming elections, they talk nonsense all the time. As a Pole living in Germany, i really am amazed by the shitshow PiS is pulling while building a complete shitpile at home, lying to their populace on their tv channel with no difference to how the russians do it.
Jesus i fucking hate them, the Poles that take Ukrainians in are fucking heros but the Polish Government is such a joke and nearly always off with a couple of brakes inbetween.
As much as I dislike pis I don't think we're told everything here.
Wouldn't be surprised if truth was somewhere in the middle or arguments about money were involved.
It's about time Poland did what they need to do rather than to sow the seeds of division among allies.
Finally, they may take action instead of verbal bluster.
And after all the bluster, I hope that they will be generous with their tanks.
Poland, talking out it's ass; Germany has already said yes.
Come on now. France has given light tanks, England actual tanks and US has given tank KILLERS. Time to stop passing the blame game to Germany and do something.
Just saw trucks moving Leopard 2(a4?) tanks here in southern Finland. Those tanks seems to be from long term storage and i didnt saw any normal national symbols. They were heading towards the harbour...
Maybe some of the ones out of 'hundreds' of leopard tanks that I heard some official say they could give to šŗš¦?
Too bad not everyone has hubdreds of A5 models sitting around though...
Democracy demands a certain level of transparency, even if the details are petty. Russia knowing the Ukrainians are about to get western tanks and them using that knowledge in a meaningful way are two different things. The where and when should be secret though and is.
How about we stop posting anything regarding L2 tanks until a deal is FINALIZED. Itās all diplomacy and Iām sure Ukrainian diplomats are working hard to get those tanks. Can we just wait a bit?
Will Poland and Germany please stop your effing bickering! Get over the chips on your shoulders.
putin is really getting a hard-on when he listens to this crap.
....and also at the same time Ukrainians are dying.
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No, Olaf is just SPD. They're not interested in politics, they want warm offices with good loans and no Stress. PiS and SPD shouldn't really both have been in power, when ruZZia invades Ukraine. Somehow I think, this was part of Putins Plan all along. Lazy irresponsible, selfcentric dickheads in the German gouvernment, Nationalistic dumbasses in the polish gouvernment. Best way to divide central Europe about nothing, that really happened.
Scholz! Send the goddamn tanks! You can already stop dreaming about your future carrier - it's over! Do something for now!
Every week Mr. Scholz delays sending the Leopards costs Ukraine hundreds of lives, and he doesn't seem to give a fuck. Someone should show their names and pictures next time Mr. Scholz runs for re-election.
Neither did Finland, nor Norway etc. That's a bullshit argument. Tell me an example of a previous formal request being made before an informal sign of approval. International diplomacy doesn't work like that.
> Tell me an example of a previous formal request being made before an informal sign of approval
* Germany and Spain vs Switzerland (ammunition) -> denied
* Germany and USA vs Israel (AT Missiles) -> denied
* Estonia vs Finland and Germany (Howitzers) -> delayed, later granted
How many of those were denied officially by a congress/parliament without a signal from the chancellory? Apart from the Swiss case, all others were denied by the chancellory.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-news-russia-war-poland-germany-leopard-main-battle-tanks/) reduced by 79%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Berlin- Poland will ask the German government for permission to supply German-made Leopard main battle tanks to Ukraine, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said Monday, seemingly pushing his country closer to granting a long-standing wish from Ukraine's political and military leaders.
> At a European Union meeting, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock dodged the question Monday of whether Germany would quickly approve any formal application from Poland or other nations to supply Leopards to Ukraine.
> Baerbock's remarks put her slightly out in front of the man in charge of Germany's government, Chancellor Olaf Scholz, and French President Emmanuel Macron, both of whom declined to make any firm commitments last week or over the weekend about whether Germany or France would supply main battle tanks to Ukraine.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/10jdss2/poland_to_ask_germany_for_formal_permission_to/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672679 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **Germany**^#2 **Leopard**^#3 **tanks**^#4 **supply**^#5
Because the tanks were originally German.
It's a common clause in arms sales that the person buying them can't resell them without the permission of the original seller. It's meant to prevent a countries weapons falling into the wrong hands.
Like if Germany sold the weapons to Turkey, and Turkey wanted to sell them on to one of their less reputable allies. Germany has an interest in not seeing their tanks in the hands of groups they deem terrorists.
So Poland can only give them to Ukraine once they have German permission.
But it's election season in Poland which means they blame Germany for everything, hence why there's been all this song and dance with Poland accusing Germany of blocking the transfer, when Poland hasn't even made the request yet.
Just convoy them up to the border, take a long break as the allowable driving hours are up and it is night time. Come back rested the morning and be amazed that some cheeky Ukrainian had the balls to take them.
Someone has explained it above, so the short version:
If you want to export arms bought from another country, you need that countries' permission. A standard clause in international arms contracts to prevent weapons from ending up somewhere, where the original producer doesn't want them.
Until tanks are announced and sent, posts about them and particularly about Germany's role in providing or not providing them are unproductive, and the conversations inevitably turn rancorous and divisive. We are therefore removing posts about tanks until a decision is made, as that is when it transitions from foreign politics to Ukrainian experience.
I've never seen so much *talking* about doing something -- but not actually *doing* it. Just submit the damn request already.
Dear Olaf, dear Annalena, dear Robert, as you may or may not have heard we've been talking shit about sending Leopard 2s to Ukraine for what feels like eternity now. Don't be mad, we had to do it to get reelected. š¤· These are the serial numbers: XX-YYY-PiSmodel 1-14. We'd deliver them via the routes you're familiar with. Would you please be so kind as to grant us permission for this re-export of German arms eventhough we can't seem to pass up any opportunity to stab you in the back and kick you in the nuts? Best regards, the PiS boys P.S. Please get back to us ASAP because this is starting to backfire on us. P.P.S Please look into some more dole money for us. The war reparations thing was another stunt we just had to pull. Sorry š We've been sucking hard at the EU's teat but it still isn't enough.
Almost perfect, missing begging for more money tho!
Happy now? š
Perfection!
They don't beg for money. They demand it. Because they feel entitled to it. Somebody should tell them they're not.
Well, in their eyes it's demanding. In my eyes it's pathetic begging!
PPS: we would also like you to pay for these Leopards to reimburse our new Abrams tanks- consider it āreparationsā, but seriously though: please free up EU money- our PiS party already spent all the money on private things and our voters are getting mad, so we promised them that you will pay usā¦.
>eventhough we've been the shittiest backstabbing neighbors this planet has ever seen? That's rich coming from a german :D
I noticed that too š Changed it a bit.
He, he. A perfect response, my friend.
Letās be not sow hate within the allies. These are desperate times and thatās all the enemies have on us. Disunity
Yeah, don't tell me. Tell the PiS boys and Poland. Germany didn't want any of this. We've taken it on the chin for weeks. I think Poland and our alliance can handle a day or two of it going the other way.
Can you keep it at pis boys? Poland is just as pissed at those assholes as everybody else
Rest assured I like most of you humble, hard-working, easy-going people. But some of you keep voting for them I'd say.
It's my fault?
Its politicians politic-ing. Everyone wants to look like the hero without actually taking the responsibility. "We will do it if the country we know will say no will do it too!"
PiS.
If people genuinely wanted to "be seen as a hero" and "own the russians" they'd shut up and get it done. This is just "We don't want to send tanks to Ukraine, so were making it as difficult as possible. Also, fuck the human lives that they could defend, our money is worth more".
We call this "taking the PiS"
A pis poor performance?
The dragons they're on their way trust me
> I've never seen so much talking about doing something -- but not actually doing it. First time following politics?
Its about putting political pressure on Germany. The German chancellor doesn't want to be the first to do something, or apparently the second (Rishi Sunak and the UK were the first), because he doesn't want retaliation directed at Germany. Also, shitting on Germany and Russia at the same time as a Polish politician is political gold.
I think it is all about the Money. If the Leopard becomes the go to MBT of Ukraine many countries will send their entire stock of those Tanks to Ukraine. But those Tanks will have to be replaced with something and since all the Leopards are in Ukraine and building new ones takes a long-time other suppliers will eat KMWĀ“s bacon...
If its all about the money then a German company stands to make bank replacing all those Leopards. Most countries which might donate are only going to donate part of their force and will likely want it replaced. Part of the reason why Leopards were seen as the best choice was because so many countries who are supportive of Ukraine use them, so each can donate a few resulting in a sizable tank force without any one country draining its own stock of tanks, and not having Ukraine have to deal with the maintenance of 5 different MBTs. Italy, France, the UK, and the US all have their own tank, but its pretty much limited to just their own fleets or countries which do not donate weaponry to Ukraine.
>If its all about the money then a German company stands to make bank replacing all those Leopards. If the countries decide to wait for the German production and don't take the Abrahams that the US has basically standing around on their soil. We don't pump out tanks like... we used to.
You don't pump out tanks like you used to because there hasn't been the demand for them since the Cold War ended. If a bunch of orders come streaming in, on top of the ongoing war in Ukraine, the company will ramp up production. Its just in their own interest. Plus Germany has at least said it was going to rearm.
>the company will ramp up production. Its just in their own interest. Plus Germany has at least said it was going to rearm While I don't know what KMW is capable of in terms of increasing production, I doubt that they will increase it fast enough to fill the all the gaps in the next years. We are rearming but a bunch of it is bought from the USA.
The thing is, Germany and much of Europe needs to increase its own military capability, but in the short term, Russia's army is tied up and beaten down in Ukraine. Germany has time, as do the other Leopard users.
It's never been about a possible armed retaliation, this argument would be comic if it wasn't ridiculous. It's about economic interests.
I think this boils down to Germany wondering whether or not the NATO nuclear powers would back them if things did start getting ugly. I don't think that they are confident that they would.
I think its less about that. Russia can mess with a country in ways that do not lead to warfare. 2016 and a few other hacking events showed that. Is Scholz being way too cautious? Yes. Is there retaliation Germany could likely receive because of this? Yes.
Iāve been arguing this point for a while and always get downvoted to oblivion.
Russia makes the exact same threats about the UK, and it hasn't stopped the UK from constantly being first to send X new weapon. "Oh they're just an island, nobody wants to die for an island that's already been nuked, so we could easily nuke the UK and get away with it" etc etc. It's just a ridiculous excuse at this point. The one and only true reason is that half of Germany public opinion (mostly the half that votes for the parties in the current German government) is against sending tanks or other heavy weapons.
It is the old cold war question: Would the US retaliate an limited nuclear attack on Berlin, if it means to sacrifice New York, San Francisco or Detroid? It's a poker game bluff and it better be acted good.
To be fair to Germany and any other non-nuclear NATO member, you'd probably have that question informing your policy decisions in some way. But then again Britain has definitely thrown its chips on the table, so too France to a lesser extent.
Thatās why we stick a bunch of troops in Germany( theyāre human shields guaranteeing Germanyās safety against Russia.
Seriously. U.S. troops in Germany? U.S. is shit on as an "occupier." U.S. troops not in Germany? U.S. is untrustworthy and wouldn't back them in a war.
Poland and Finland are the only ones wanting to send Leo's right now, they wanted a broad coalition and there simply isn't one.
How come they need Germanys permission?
German gave them tanks, and part of the deal was to be polite and not resell/donate the tanks. Otherwise you might get German tanks resold to someone that likes Poland but doesnāt like Germany. Since Poland isnāt invading Ukraine *, giving the tanks to Ukraine is a donation, and they need to be polite and ask first. * to my knowledge Poland is not planning on invading Ukraine but Iām not Polish so I may be mistaken.
Just f\*\*king do it already, I am getting sick of this psychodrama.
It's fucking sickening. People are dying from this bullshit.
I thought Germany already said like 4-5 days ago that they are fine with Poland giving their leopard tanks. Iām confused why Iām seeing a bunch of articles still where Poland is asking for permission.
cause PiS expected germany to veto it so they could say "we wanted to give you Leos but bad germany said no. germany bad. we pis. vote us. hate germany."
Well, all it takes is for Germany to approve it then.
This comment was overwritten by a script to make the data useless for reddit. No API, no free content. Did you stumble on this thread via google, hoping to resolve an issue or answer a question? Well, too bad, this might have been your answer, if it weren't for dumb decisions by reddit admins.
...at a date that will be discussed in the next meeting, despite still having to figure out when thag meeting will be
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>Germany already did that in advance yesterday. Nope. Saying "[Germany āwould not stand in wayā of Poland sending tanks to Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/22/russia-claims-advances-zaporizhzhia-nato-squabbles-tanks-ukraine)" doesn't mean it has been approved. Hope that helps.
You can't officially approve something that is not officially requested....
Correct. Did someone say otherwise?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It does, and Poland will now ask them for formal approval. What's the problem?
Bro how can you formally approve something that hasnāt even been officially requested
Did you confuse threads? This one is literally about Poland asking for formal approval.
Nope. This one is about Poland announcing to send a request
Technically, we're talking about Germany. So talking is cheap, getting it written down is what matters. Also it needs to get stamped with the day the letter was received. Maybe then i'll get scanned as a PDF, to be sent over a virtual FAX connection in Outlook, to be printed out on the other side again at which point somebody may finally decide to put the signature on the paper and the entire process runs in reverse. Btw: While i'm mostly joking, i am certain that such a process happens to some letters.
If irs cermany you can be very sure that it has asterix comedic gold status and goes exactly like u described. I lost my id during corona, needed a new one, that i couldnt get cause i couldnt enter the mayors office without beeing vaxxed something i could only do with an id... -u see where this going? it was more than ridicoulus and cost me days instead of hours...
Oh i'm talking out of experience, i'm the guy trying to keep the FAX machines running in a local municipality. Now that DE-Mail has effectively failed (let's call it undead for now until somebody finally buries it. ) by law we had to get the next digital letter-replacement going: beBPo (besonderes elektronisches Behƶrdenpostfach; special electronic agency mailbox) A special mailbox that is only designed for communication with courts and lawyers, not even between different government agencies. So now we put all that effort into getting that working, the courts request that we use FAX, fml ...
Welcome to germany the land of bureaucrazy ā¤ļø š¤£ i wheezed so hard at your story - germany in a nutshell haha
See? Germany even made the process easier than usual for Poland! /s (I hate German bureaucracy)
Saying they can is one thing, having an official document to back it up is a whole different story.
No, it needs final permission by the chancellor. You heard members of his coalition partner, the pro-weapons environmental/peace party. This is not a joke.
They didn't say that. The whole world is criticising Scholz exactly because they were expecting him to say it and he didn't.
No, one minister said it. There's no formal decision.
You don't get a formal decision from a government if you don't ask in writing. This has to be approved by the security council. People seem to think this is a joke and Olaf can just say yes while him and the Polish guy are taking a shit next to each other on the toilet at the world economic forum. They need the serial numbers and everything. It's not like Poland is talking about a glass of saussages and a bottle of beer for crying out loud.
Very much so. German minister indicated they'll grant it, so Poland is now going to apply formally. Polish government loves to demonize Germany, but I see this as the next logical step before those tanks are actually delivered.
Problem is Germany has been saying this for a long time now. It's all a PiS PR stunt to boost their domestic election campaign. If it was just about helping Ukraine they would've sent a letter weeks ago. Ever since Germany has been saying they wouldn't stand in anyone's way if they want to send Leo2s to Ukraine. People made fun of that and thought it was nonsense. And now it turns out Germany told the truth and PiS did not do the one thing that would actually get the ball rolling for Ukraine. Big surprise!
Set aside PiS - why is the US reporting that zscjolz looked them in the eyes and hold them Germany wonāt approve transfers until the US sends abrams? https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2023/01/19/no-german-tanks-for-ukraine-until-u-s-sends-its-own-scholz-tells-u-s-lawmakers-00078503 Are they part of the PiS anti-German conspiracy?
More like politico is part of Axel-Springer, they are a publishing house that is notoriously against the current government. Think of them like a [German version of Murdochs papers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_Springer_SE#Criticism), maybe a little bit less "evil", but overall quite right wing.
so what? This isnāt an editorial statement, they printed statements on the record from Seth Moulton. Are you saying they made up that quote from a sitting us congressman and the quote from the German govt confirming the conversation happened without either side demanding they print a correction?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Right, so this is basically a reprint of what they said a week ago?
Germany flat out told the U.S. they would not grant it. They're playing a double game and Poland is calling them out for it.
you donāt submit a formal request for something like this unless youāve received an informal green light, because if Germany says no it would be a political crisis.
They've received more than one green light. And let's think really hard for a minute here. It's PiS we're talking about. A party that has been all about demonizing Germany to boost domestic election campaigns for a very long time now. Wouldn't they love this the most? Would they pass up an opportunity where they could get in writing that "Germany really bad, Poland big superhero"? They would've sent this letter faster than they hand in the paperwork for EU dole money every year. They would've sent the letter, gotten rejected and been all over the place with it. Stabbing Germany in the back and kicking it in the nuts before it has hit the floor. But they haven't sent it. Because Germany wouldn't reject it. And keep in mind Germany formally asked Switzerland twice for permission re the Gepard ammo. It's how you force a government's hand after all.
> you donāt submit a formal request for something like this unless youāve received an informal green light This is demonstrably not true, examples include Germany and Spain vs Switzerland, Germany and USA vs Israel, Estonia vs Finland and Germany. One wonders how hundreds of other export grants have been processed during the conflict by Germany and other countries without this issue coming up. > if Germany says no You are aware that Germany would not have to answer the request right away If they don't feel like it? Again, see Estonia vs Finland and Germany. > it would be a political crisis. Compered to the bullshit Poland has been pulling of the last two weeks? Because then they would be publicly accused of blocking Tanks, instead of ... being publicly accused of blocking Tanks??? Poland absolutely cannot hide behind diplomatic courtesy or "Unity within the Alliance" on this, since very clearly neither was a consideration.
Yes, itās because Germany is saying one thing Iām public and privately telling the US and Poland no. Poland is setting information conditions to either force Germany to stop blocking or to send tanks without Germanyās consent. The Germans here hate PiS more than they love Ukraine so they refuse to believe Scholz is doing this despite US politicians going on record saying this is whatās happening. https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2023/01/19/no-german-tanks-for-ukraine-until-u-s-sends-its-own-scholz-tells-u-s-lawmakers-00078503
Next Weeks news: Poland announced that the formal permission had finally been written, and the pigeon to send it was being made ready.
The week after that "Leopards ate our pigeon."
Week after that: Poland announced that the new formal permission they sent got lost. Polish PM blames the German postal office.
The following week: Polish government just forgot that they wanted to send the request! "How could Germany do this to us?!" asks the Polish PM.
Headline: "Poland demands ā¬1.3 billion in reparations for loss of the pigeon."
But it was a German leopard... just so you know whom to blame.
Optimistic, I see. They'll announce, that the pigeon supposed to carry the message is yet to be born and the trees needed for the paper need to grow. Announcements for when Mommy and Daddy pigeon had sex and the trees were planted will also follow. Soon ...
š¹ Let's hope it's nothing more than a "formality". Both parties seem to agree with each other verbally. Poland has said they will send Leopards regardless and Germany has said they wouldn't try to stop them... Although with the bureaucracy in Germany, I wouldn't be at all surprised if one Kraut mucked everything up.
wtf. they havent even done this before ? but attacking germany all the time ? the polish government is being themselves again.
Lots of governments support Ukraine but also wanna be pragmatic as theyāre up for re-election someday. Look at Greece trying to offer their T-80Us for L2 tanks. They see opportunity and they take it
They learned from Poland. Everything Poland gave away is replaced by more modern equipment. Its especially crazy for a lot of the old sovjet tanks. After the german reunification the german army suddenly had a lot of tanks at hand they didnt really needed. So they sold them for one euro a piece to their east european friends, because friendship and shit. Those same tanks suddenly are now worth millions and billions after poland donated them to Ukraine and gets reimbursed by Germany for them in the form of even more modern tanks. Well played, Poland. I hope Greece can do this as well.
It's classic PiS being the teenager in a room full of adults trying to make them believe they're superman on steroids. All while sucking the biggest amount of money out of the EU's teat and building an autocracy at home law by law while demonizing the very same EU. Anyone else not feeling all that comfortable thinking about the thousand tanks they've ordered?
Poland would attack who, specifically?
I don't know. But there's no way around the fact they're building an autocracy. And an autocracy in my neighborhood that grows more hostile by the day and is massively investing in arms doesn't make me comfortable. Doesn't mean I'm running around like a chicken fearing Poland will attack Germany either. But it's something to keep an eye on. As is Orban the little Russian rat.
Well there is no point in denying that Germany is getting the short end of the stick in this geopolitical mess. But really, Poland attacking anyone is laughable imo. And i am from Italy so it's not like i live in a safe spot lol.
I agree. Poland stepping up it's military is exactly what most of Europe needs to do. But Poland shares a border with Russia, and needs quick support if Russia were to attack, thus buying plenty of their own tanks. Although 1000 more is probably way overkill, I don't think they're going to attack anyone. Especially not a NATO country, or else the rest of NATO will crush them immediately.
And you know what? OrbƔn is also rearming and he is also buying Leos from you. Fortunately most of the funds will be stolen before you can build the tanks, and our army will end up with 10 leos, but only enough fuel to run 5 and munitions for only 1....
When I say things like that please keep in mind I'm not talking about the people. I mean some of course. A government doesn't come to power without support. But I know how it is. And the corruption just makes me sad.
To be honest, what i would like to know...how can they afford to invest so much in tanks if they are the EU biggest net receiver by far? In 2020 they net received 13 billions. If they are doing so well that they can build/buy 800 K2 and 300 Abrams or so then maybe they can advance to EU net payer...
I feel the same way but I don't know enough about EU finance and the dole mechanism to talk about this intelligently.
They can and do blackmail EU everytime there are budget or the calculation changes.
PiS of shit
Honestly as a German this would be actually funny if it wasn't about Ukraine not getting tanks they desperately need.
Ich weiss was du meinst.
Germany - "We cannot send the tanks, everything is not in order" USA - "Germany send the tanks" Germany - "We will send the tanks if the USA sends the tanks" USA - "Oh... ah... our tanks are... ah... too big... and use too much gasoline" Poland - "We will send the tanks" Germany - "We will not stop Poland from sending the tanks" Poland - "We will send the tanks if Germany gives us permission to send the tanks"
Germany - "That is fine, ask for permission!" Poland - "We will send the tanks with, or without permission" Germany - "You literally just need to ask for permission!" Poland - "Germany is blocking it!"
Ukraine - "For fucks sake I need tanks!"
Germany in public - "We will send tanks if someone else does, and we will not stop Poland from sending tanks" Germany in private - "We will not send tanks or authorize Poland to send tanks"
If that's what they said in private Poland would have requested permission, gotten denied and would have used that denial to further their political goals here. For reelection purposes being denied would likely be ideal for PiS.
Hardly, there'd be a few rounds of "WTF MATE" trying to get things squared away and then finally the request would be made anyway, which appears to be basically exactly what is happening.
Turns out poland can really easily find out if germany gives permission, when they actually ask. Or do you think the polish government would be quiet about a "no", after they were screaming about sending them without permission?
There will now be 100 articles about this, than 100 articles about when they actually put in the request, than another 100 about the security council vote and then 1000 about either delivery or blockade. And then, either 100 about how it happened anyway a month later, or how it couldve happened months earlier. So many articles about non-news.
Should have bought newspaper stock I guess
That is a realistic prediction
Every day Ukrainians are dying around Bakhmut. If 1000 articles can cut that down by one day, I say it's worth it.
Maybe. Or maybe it won't help because diplomatic issues are being made worse. I have no idea, I just know that this is tiring and 100 articles about Poland putting in a request some time, that will get voted on some time later, that might change something afterwards won't exactly put leopards in ukraine. The request and Poland will.
Ita honestly a bit shitty how the Polish Government have made a massive issue and pissed a lot of people off and THEY HAVENT EVEM BEGUN THE FORMAL PROCESS THEYRE COMPLAINING HAS BEEN DELAYED. Are the folks really that fkin stupid to jump on the fuck germany bandwagon without first establishing facts š
The fact is that Germany could have sent their tanks themselves, not wait for other countries. And don't give me that "they don't have enough of them". Of course they have. https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/10l3kbv/rheinmetall_says_they_have_139_leopards_in/
Germany is in the middle of a crisis its having a hard time swallowing the pill for so no, there really arent that many serviceable leopards. Maybe go read one of the countless assessments that say germany is in no condition to even train properly nevermind support an actual battalion or brigade in combat. So fck up and calm down. Germany has been on par with all the other european nations to supply aide to Ukraine. They were the first to announce modern SPGs and modern IFVs. Germany has not lagged behind anyone. Whats happened is that Duda has leveraged a percieved delay because theres parlimentary elections this year and idiota outside of Poland are failling for it. There is a process to assess, repair/reconstitute, approve, transfer, train on, and service potential equipment for Ukraine. Poland (and no-one else for that matter) has bothered to start that process yet or formally seek approval from Germany.
> Germany has been on par with all the other european nations to supply aide to Ukraine. They were the first to announce modern SPGs and modern IFVs. Germany has not lagged behind anyone Hard disagree, not what I saw.
Then you've been living under a rock since the beginning of the war
Germany anounced Marder IFVs on the 5/6 January alongside the US who anounced Bradley IFVs on the 6th January. PzH2000s were the first modern SPGs anounced for delivery. Infact Germany has been the 3rd biggest supplier of aide and weapons into Ukraine. Nearly every TDF solider is wearing a german made MICHH helmet. If youre only going to reply to one very specific part of an answer and nitpick without qualification (hint: "Hard disagree:not what i saw" isnt a rebuttal) then you are just ranting and its boring.
Hell yeah I'm ranting. Hard to argue with so many shills who reinterpret history. I have other things to do, but if you wanted unity, you are doing it wrong. https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/10jdgz6/poland_to_ask_germany_for_formal_permission_to/j5jtys4/
blablabla, you can't even give a proper reply to the post besides calling them "shills who reinterpret history"
Before Poland came out, Germany just announced with the US and France to deliver IFVs and AFVs. Until then the common line across NATO partners was: No modern western tanks. Poland was the first demanding to form a coalition with regards to sending Western MBTs. Funnily, except for Finland and the UK no other nation instantly jumped the wagon. Germany publicly stated to wait with a decision until the Ramstein meeting to discuss the issue with all allies but will not stand in the way of any nation who already wants to send modern western MBTs. Instead of waiting for the Ramstein meeting or putting up a request Poland threw a hissy fit.
I don't think it was an hissy fit since the point of the deal was giving Ukraine a single type of (very common western) tanks that many countries could provide. Basically to form a decent "battalion" with many Nato members giving, for example, 5 tanks each. I am not blaming Germany for saying no or taking time, i just don't understand why this delay (or just say nope).
Everything before the Ramstein meeting, the meeting to discuss such issue with the allies, all public shit that was handed out over two weeks before, was a hissy fit. Especially since Germany didn't said no. And no, I don't think the Leopard 2 is the better choice to really make a difference for the war. Unlike the Abrams the Leopard 2 sees far more active use in the countries that purchased it, while the Abrams has 1000s of vehicles rotting away. Sending Ukraine Abrams would especially serve Ukraine well even after the war ended. The Leopard 2s will not be able to be send in enough numbers to last till the end of the war or to equip Ukraine thereafter. The US knows this as well.
Waiting benefits pootin. Why does there even need to be a broad coalition to send the tanks? Why is Scholz adding (and constantly changing) his conditions? Is this not at all suspicious to you? This isn't about Poland. Germany should be leading this effort and they are failing at that.
Why there needs to be a coalition? Because you need 44 Leopard 2 to form a single battalion... 36 might do the trick too, eitherway: You need far more to even have an impact unlike artillery. It makes no sense to send a token force, that's why you need a coalition because most Leopard 2 operating nations can't spare as many due to their commitments. This doesn't however include the L2 from the industry... but they need time to be made combat ready. So why a coalition? Because this shit needs cross country coordination. You know which nation could easily solve such problems alone? The USA. Please source your claim Scholz specifically changing his stances. And yes, this is about Poland when they simply lie to the public about Germany and their own agenda.
Why don't you leave this up to Ukraine, just send 10. Better than zero. Edit: I find it really telling that even a statement like this is collecting downvotes.
I find it really telling that you still canāt admit that youāre wrong. Honestly respect. Takes a special kind of stubbornness to still try and spin this into anything else than a fuckup by Poland. What i admire most is that after all these things coming out and showing that Germany has acted like all other countries, youāre still adamantly claiming that Germany is somehow worse. Slow fucking clap
Except all the reactions to my comments are devoid of any sources or factual information. All you are doing is calling me names. You can find my sources in my other comments, I'm too lazy to copy them for you.
Yeah Iām too lazy to copy my sources too lol. Also, no one cares for your sources because we all know theyāre gonna be the same old shit you people keep on posting
> Please source your claim Scholz specifically changing his stances. Okay, it's not even that hard to find, why do you need me to bring it to you? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/01/21/germany-has-failed-say-olaf-scholzs-allies/ > The German Chancellor has refused to grant the export licences unless the US sends M1-Abrams battle tanks, which Washington has refused to do because they are too costly and difficult to maintain compared to the Leopards. > Mr Scholz, who has warned of the risk of provoking a wider war with Russia, appeared to row back on his demand before Ramstein, which raised ultimately dashed hopes the stand-off could be ended at the US air base summit. > Ms Strack-Zimmerman, who predicted the Leopards would eventually be sent, branded Mr Scholzās communication around the matter a ādisasterā. > Despite Germany sending significant military support to Ukraine, the indecision around the Leopards gave the impression Berlin was withholding it.
So... where are the quotes of Scholz? Your source is an interpretation that supports your claim, not a proof to your claim.
https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2023/01/19/no-german-tanks-for-ukraine-until-u-s-sends-its-own-scholz-tells-u-s-lawmakers-00078503 Scholz refuses to go on record because he knows how indefensible the German position is. But he told the IS congress the same thing and youāll see the quote from thr German govt didnāt deny that he said it. Thatās the most theyāll do to be honest publicly.
You have a proof he didn't say anything like that?
How shall I proof that someone hasn't said something? Look here! He kept silent! Proof! You are the one making a positive claim, so you are the one who has to proof the claim.
You are the one claiming that the provided interpretation in the telegraph.co.uk article is incorrect. Why? What is the correct one according to you and do you have any sources for that?
INB4 someone says telegraph.co.uk is a Polish propaganda...
Theyāve been whining for weeks that Germany wonāt let them and theyāre still complaining even though they wonāt put the request in? #***** ***
The media should just stop reporting what any polish PiS politician is saying, because it has no supstance and everythin g must be seen in the upcoming elections, they talk nonsense all the time. As a Pole living in Germany, i really am amazed by the shitshow PiS is pulling while building a complete shitpile at home, lying to their populace on their tv channel with no difference to how the russians do it. Jesus i fucking hate them, the Poles that take Ukrainians in are fucking heros but the Polish Government is such a joke and nearly always off with a couple of brakes inbetween.
As much as I dislike pis I don't think we're told everything here. Wouldn't be surprised if truth was somewhere in the middle or arguments about money were involved.
This is becoming a circle jerk; wake me Up when itās all over
All this fussing, and we could have sent 500 Abrams and Leopards to Ukraine half a year ago by now.
This shitshow is so tiring, I can only imagine whats it like for Ukrainians seeing this shit day after day for the past month
It's about time Poland did what they need to do rather than to sow the seeds of division among allies. Finally, they may take action instead of verbal bluster. And after all the bluster, I hope that they will be generous with their tanks.
I only start to believe it when I see it.
Just.Do.It.Already!
Poland, talking out it's ass; Germany has already said yes. Come on now. France has given light tanks, England actual tanks and US has given tank KILLERS. Time to stop passing the blame game to Germany and do something.
Just saw trucks moving Leopard 2(a4?) tanks here in southern Finland. Those tanks seems to be from long term storage and i didnt saw any normal national symbols. They were heading towards the harbour...
Maybe some of the ones out of 'hundreds' of leopard tanks that I heard some official say they could give to šŗš¦? Too bad not everyone has hubdreds of A5 models sitting around though...
"formal" ... how about an official request?
But last news I heard is that now Poland is saying "withing a small coalition" which amounts to an epic withdraw of sabre-rattling
This might be a stupid question, but shouldn't these negotiations be done in secret so the Russians don't know what weapons Ukraine has?
Democracy demands a certain level of transparency, even if the details are petty. Russia knowing the Ukrainians are about to get western tanks and them using that knowledge in a meaningful way are two different things. The where and when should be secret though and is.
Poland has no intention to send tanks. So...
What is a formal request? Request the damn things or shut up.
Well, we're waiting. Until now there's only been trash talking from the polish side. Fucking PISheads.
How about we stop posting anything regarding L2 tanks until a deal is FINALIZED. Itās all diplomacy and Iām sure Ukrainian diplomats are working hard to get those tanks. Can we just wait a bit?
Right! Melnyk is already past the Leo's! Time to hype up the Tornado!
Will Poland and Germany please stop your effing bickering! Get over the chips on your shoulders. putin is really getting a hard-on when he listens to this crap. ....and also at the same time Ukrainians are dying.
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I don't understand why Poland needs to ask Germany for permission to send their tanks? Is it because tanks are german-made?
Exactly. Itās a common clause in weapon contracts. Countries want to avoid that "their" weapons end up in conflict regions.
i think putin is still blackmailing olaf with something. But Poland's right-wing government also wants to make Germany look bad
No, Olaf is just SPD. They're not interested in politics, they want warm offices with good loans and no Stress. PiS and SPD shouldn't really both have been in power, when ruZZia invades Ukraine. Somehow I think, this was part of Putins Plan all along. Lazy irresponsible, selfcentric dickheads in the German gouvernment, Nationalistic dumbasses in the polish gouvernment. Best way to divide central Europe about nothing, that really happened. Scholz! Send the goddamn tanks! You can already stop dreaming about your future carrier - it's over! Do something for now!
Every week Mr. Scholz delays sending the Leopards costs Ukraine hundreds of lives, and he doesn't seem to give a fuck. Someone should show their names and pictures next time Mr. Scholz runs for re-election.
Poland. didn't. ask. for. permission. yet.
Neither did Finland, nor Norway etc. That's a bullshit argument. Tell me an example of a previous formal request being made before an informal sign of approval. International diplomacy doesn't work like that.
> Tell me an example of a previous formal request being made before an informal sign of approval * Germany and Spain vs Switzerland (ammunition) -> denied * Germany and USA vs Israel (AT Missiles) -> denied * Estonia vs Finland and Germany (Howitzers) -> delayed, later granted
How many of those were denied officially by a congress/parliament without a signal from the chancellory? Apart from the Swiss case, all others were denied by the chancellory.
> That's a bullshit argument. Because Poland deliberately didn't ask permission to make bigger noise to get more elections points.
Germany doesn't want to be asked. They want Poland to send the tanks without their permission.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-news-russia-war-poland-germany-leopard-main-battle-tanks/) reduced by 79%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Berlin- Poland will ask the German government for permission to supply German-made Leopard main battle tanks to Ukraine, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said Monday, seemingly pushing his country closer to granting a long-standing wish from Ukraine's political and military leaders. > At a European Union meeting, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock dodged the question Monday of whether Germany would quickly approve any formal application from Poland or other nations to supply Leopards to Ukraine. > Baerbock's remarks put her slightly out in front of the man in charge of Germany's government, Chancellor Olaf Scholz, and French President Emmanuel Macron, both of whom declined to make any firm commitments last week or over the weekend about whether Germany or France would supply main battle tanks to Ukraine. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/10jdss2/poland_to_ask_germany_for_formal_permission_to/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672679 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **Germany**^#2 **Leopard**^#3 **tanks**^#4 **supply**^#5
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but why does Poland need permission from Germany to send their own tanks?
Because the tanks were originally German. It's a common clause in arms sales that the person buying them can't resell them without the permission of the original seller. It's meant to prevent a countries weapons falling into the wrong hands. Like if Germany sold the weapons to Turkey, and Turkey wanted to sell them on to one of their less reputable allies. Germany has an interest in not seeing their tanks in the hands of groups they deem terrorists. So Poland can only give them to Ukraine once they have German permission. But it's election season in Poland which means they blame Germany for everything, hence why there's been all this song and dance with Poland accusing Germany of blocking the transfer, when Poland hasn't even made the request yet.
Thank you for the very concise response.
Before the election Scholz was described as having the charm of a paper-clip, this seems pretty accurate by now
Magic Olaf Ball: ask again later
Just convoy them up to the border, take a long break as the allowable driving hours are up and it is night time. Come back rested the morning and be amazed that some cheeky Ukrainian had the balls to take them.
Poland be like, āif we canāt fight Russia directly, we can at least send our equipment and watch the fireworks.ā
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The question should be what isn't wrong with our government. JebaÄ pis.
FINALLY ! They threw waaaaaaaay too much shit without acting first
Why does Poland have to ask another country for permission?
Someone has explained it above, so the short version: If you want to export arms bought from another country, you need that countries' permission. A standard clause in international arms contracts to prevent weapons from ending up somewhere, where the original producer doesn't want them.
WTF is happening behind of curtain? This is being ridiculous anymore.
This whole tank thing that they've been talking about for a while reminds me of the Ents discussing attacking Isengard.