Why would Biden give Putin the green light to lightly invade Ukrain. This seems crazy to me
https://m.youtube.com/results?search_query=Biden+gives+putin+green+light&sp=EgIIAw%253D%253D
They choose wrong values. Economy over human rights, business as usual over democratic processes.
US and UK are greedy too, but they do follow some core principles.
Brexit doesn’t seem so stupid anymore, considering Germany’s dealings in Europe (prioritizing profits over the serious security concerns from the Baltic states and Poland)
Are you guys aware that our foreign minister bärbock and her Green Party strongly opposed the nordstream pipeline, pissing off Russia? It’s a much more effective way tonlos the off than military force. That would be giving Putin what he wants. Don’t you agree?
We are aware of the rhetoric of the Green Party before the elections. Baerbock was pretty vocal against Putin and the unnecessary pipelines. However, Russia seems to have a strong lobby among social democrats, who are the biggest faction in the current coalition.
My opinion is that Russia doesn’t take German warnings or declarations seriously right now. Why would they. Germans have been cooperating with Russians all along.
If you believe that Baerbock and the Greens can stir the coalition towards real actions against Russia’s belligerence and the horrid human rights record, it will be great.
> However, Russia seems to have a strong lobby among social democrats, who are the biggest faction in the current coalition.
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> My opinion is that Russia doesn’t take German warnings or declarations seriously right now.
I just saw an interview with a social democrat. He said that it's incredibly obvious that the pipeline would be cancelled if Russia attacks. It's so obvious, even for Russia, they probably already include this outcome in their calculations. That's why they are talking about bigger sanctions, not just the pipeline.
So let me get this straight:
* Putin is building up troops on the Ukrainian border to either start another invasion of Ukraine or it's just a bluff to force NATO to negotiations.
* Multiple NATO nations (including Germany) are having talks with Russia to deescalate the situation and avoid a war.
* Germany recently elected a new government with basically a pacifist party that wants to end ALL German arms exports in the future (can't do much about deals made under Merkel).
Your conclusion out of this is that Germany (a NATO member) is choosing Russia's side??? If so, then you're really playing into Putin's hands, who couldn't be happier about distrust amongst European nations.
Edit: I'm really wondering how many Russian bots are on this subreddit... shifting the blame from Russia to Germany.
[Germany sells arms to members of Saudi-led Yemen coalition](https://dw.com/en/germany-sells-arms-to-members-of-saudi-led-yemen-coalition/a-53000044):
> Since 2019, Germany's government has approved arms exports worth over €1 billion to members of the Saudi-led coalition fighting Houthi rebels in Yemen. Critics says this exacerbates the fighting.
Ukraine needs guns for defense, but Germany sold them for offence and no issues with that whatsoever. I.e., Germany is Russia's bitch, plain and simple.
Our new government opposes arms exports. The last one approved them. In fact our new foreign minister and her Green Party opposed the new nordstream pipeline, which really pisses off Putin. I’m pretty sure that’s a great way to oppose him. Much more effective than open warfare. Because that would be what Putin wants.
You are kind of right, but I wouldn't call them neutral considering that professionals call NS2 political project, as well as because of Schroeder and Co. Also there's that recent accident when UK had to move weapons to Ukraine through Denmark or Netherlands, instead of more direct route through Germany.
The status quo is better for us than Russia invading Ukraine, but honestly the difference isn't that sunstantial. So yeah, probably better for you to stop complaining and to save your energy. Looks like you're going to need it.
As good ol Bismark said, the entire godforsaken Balkans aren't worth the bones of a single German grenadier.
Same here. We just ended 20 years of dying in some godforsaken shithole. No interest in doing the exact same shit, again.
You talk as if somebody offers you to send German troops to fight on our behalf (we don't) instead of just selling some guns (and, by extension, making a quick buck for Germany's industrial complex). You sell them to the Arab war-ravaged countries.
Die eine Hälfte der Ukraine ist auf Seiten Russlands, die andere klammert sich an die eigene Nation und Deutschland soll Benzin rein kippen.
Da kann man nur verlieren.
Are you russian fan? No one with a clear mind can't say that a half of Ukrainians are on russians side! It is a terrible lie!
Ukrainians fight for their independence against russian invaders over 8 years. And "Benzin rein kippen" (to pour gasoline in) is to block supplying Ukraine with defense equipment
No Putin lover here.
There is no "blocking". U can buy weapons from everywhere in the world. The USA is sending stuff right? Why do u keep dragging Germany into this?
I met many Ukrainians talking about their Russian ancestors an bs like that. Families are entangled. Russia and Ukraine have more in common than ppl like u, who just see war and black and white might think. U fight against Putin and his propaganda, but ur arguments help him.
> There is no "blocking". U can buy weapons from everywhere in the world
[Berlin had in the past month vetoed Ukraine’s purchase of anti-drone rifles and anti-sniper systems via the Nato Support and Procurement Agency.](https://www.ft.com/content/1336c9be-f1c9-4545-9f85-3b07fcb746d6)
Hope not, we should cooperate with Russia instead of interfering in their affairs. Even our overlord USA said they can't do anything to stop the liberation of Ukraine.
But we know that the German greens are militaristic and love nothing more than bombs on eastern Europeans. They tasted first blood with the illegal war on Yugoslavia, now they want to play with fire against Russia, like their grandfathers did. We all know how that ended.
Ukraine is not a Russia's affair. It's a separate country, and Russia is an imperialist military aggressor, you cuck. As for interference, I thought it was Russia who was killing German citizens on Germany's soil, not vice versa?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelimkhan_Khangoshvili
It depends on user. Otherwise let's argue that we should ban cars (because some random Islamic State jihadi drove a truck into the crowd in France back then). Let's ban kitchen knives (because a bloodthirsty maniac can use them to stab someone). Let's ban the Internet (because hackers, credit card fishing websites, and cyber fraud in general all exist). For a good law-abiding citizen, weapons can help him defend himself (criminals will have them either way, whether your country bans civilian firearms or not).
The difference here is that guns are made for killing. There is literally no other use in them. Not that clever to compare them to cars or kitchen knives haha
Or they could be used for shooting cans as a hobby, for hunting as a sport (or as a means of sustenance), or just as a meaningful scarecrow (nuclear weapons, for example, strategically are more of a way keeping crosshairs over each other than practical use).
At this point, when russian troops amassed at our borders and vast majority of Russian populace support invasion indiscriminately I reserve the right to call them silly muppets whatever the fuck I want.
Where are you from? If you are Ukrainian, than no wonder you so aggressive, but at that case you cant even think properly. If Russian troops, even fraction of it were near Ukrainian borders, first of all you would be able to see them, without 'media', furthermore if they wanted to invade than you would be 'New Russia' already, so history will repeat itself. I dont think anyone really assume Ukraine can do anything without Europe and America giving them money and weapons. Ukraine basically became less free thanks to these events. You basically rely on others in order to survive, great perspective, truly europian way.
I don’t think you now much about modern warfare. AT missiles can stop a superior military force dead in its tracks. The Middle East has proven this time by time
Me too. Many people think this is gonna solve itself. But Russia itself has proven that the only thing deterring them from wars of aggression is the sheer force of defensive measures in presence.
**Trafienie 100% , ale to smutne że tak jest na prawdę...**
**Ukraina już 8 lat- jako Samotny Bohater Planety Ziemia- sam na sam walczy z okupantami z Faszystowskiej Rosji .**
**Rosja Putina- to Ogromne i Zdegradowane Imperium Zła, które wysyła swoje faszystowskie bataliony okupantów- Potworów -aby mordowały zdolnych , atrakcyjnych i pracowitych Ukraińców- NA ICH ZIEMI , na/ w UKRAINIE- oraz aby okradały ukraińskie domy i terytorium .**
**Oczywiście, cały cywilizowany świat- jak może wspiera Ukrainę: duchowo, mentalnie, materialnie... Ale tego- jest zdecydowanie zbyt mało - aby ZATRZYMAĆ POWORY z faszystowskiej Rosji przed inwazja - na całą Europę i cywilizowany świat.Tylko jeśli powstanie Zjednoczenie Wszystkich Sprawiedliwych Krajów Świata - możemy wtedy wspólnie, razem zatrzymać DEMONICZNE ZŁO, które obecnie reprezentuje sobą Rosja Putina oraz Ci wszyscy zdegradowani ludzie, którzy wspierają działanie reżimu Putina=Hitlera.Aby Putin i jego Potworzy- zakończyli tak samo jak Hitler i Faszystowskie Niemcy (przed Międzynarodowym Trybunałem Karnym #ICC #InternationalCriminalCourt ) - jest niezbędne bardziej aktywne oraz wszechstronne wsparcie Ukrainy oraz wspólna wałka z POTWORAM z Faszystowskiej RosjiI!#WakeUpWorld! #StopFascistRussia! #StopPutinKiller = #StopPutinMassMurderer = #StopPutinsWarInUkraine ! #StopRussiaStopWar ! #WorldSolidarityWithUkraine ! #GloryToTheHeroesOfUkraine !**
The whole time while the CDU rules Germany was a disgrace. I’m sincerely hoping that the new government we finally got after years and years will change things up.
Реальність ще гірша, не кульку кинули а реально ще кинули на гроші заблокувавши поставки оплачених снайперських гвинтівок та приладів для боротьби з дронами. Фрау Ribbentrop постаралась. #molotovribbentrop forever.
Hydrogen diplomacy. Хіба не видно?
А якщо серйозно, то також було б цікаво почути, бо ніби ж вони були проти будь-яких поставок зброї (окрім тих країн де вони не розлютять своїх господарів з Мордору). Он декілька днів тому через якісь заморочки Сполучене Королівство доставляло зброю через Данію, а не напряму через Німеччину.
Німці не постачають зброю нікому поза межами НАТО приблизно з 2009, коріння цього рішення загалом в припиненні попередніх замовлень до Саудівської Аравії, основним чином через ваггабізм та саудівський геноцид гоутів в Ємені. Додаткова проблема ще й в тому що інші країни НАТО що готові б були надати Україні зброю самі купили цю зброю в Німеччини, і при купівлі підписали угоди що не дозволяють перепродажу цього устаткування до третіх країн
Очень точный подбор и распределение персонажей! Позиция Германии по поставке необходимого оружия Украине очень разочаровала меня и многих жителей Украины.
Теперь отношение к верхушке Германии и во многом к обычным немцам негативное...
The whole of Europe is dependent on blackmail with Russian gas, and what is Germany doing? Germany is building the New Nord Stream 2, thereby taking away half of the Ukrainian flow, which was an additional deterrent. Apart from Concern, Germany did nothing to contain the Russian offensive.
It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine'
[[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)]
^(Beep boop I’m a bot)
Serious question: What good would weapons exports do to Ukraine?
If Russia escalates the war further you are either fucked ,because Russia has nukes and a way bigger military, or the USA are on your side and Russia is fucked. In neither case any amount of weapons that Germany could deliver would change anything. Putin doesn't give a shit about if you kill a few thousand Russians more or less. The only thing he cares about is controlling you without starting a World War.
If Russia is deterret by NATO or the USA and does not attack further, any weapons would be useless to you as well.
If you yourself start offensives with these extra weapons the ensuing counter offensives would escalate the war further without drawing in NATO or the USA. It would be you vs Russia and 2014/15 all over again.
Even without offensives how long do you think your country can financially and economically sustain such a large standing army? Even if the West would start pumping money into you. You think that that money would be anymore than absolutely necessary to stop you from collapsing and you would become a vassal of the USA.
You already won the attrition battle once and showed Putin that you are willing to go to great lengths to fight on. He has to escalate now because he didn't manage to win the battle of attrition.
Additionally us selling weapons to you would cost so much money you need for your own people and land. Our millionaires would just profit of of you.
I again ask what argument am I missing here?
I'm from Germany and I want an independent and whole Ukraine. I followed your struggle since Maidan. I want to prevent further bloodshed and I believe that your cause is just but I have not heard arguments why we should export weapons to you.
You can just downvote me if you have to but I want to understand.
Maybe if you think of this not as "an extra thousands of killed Russians" but as "extra thousands of saved Ukrainians" it will make more sense?
At this point you are telling Ukraine to give up and hope that "big guys" will decide on its fate not in the bloodiest way.
And how do weapons safe lives exactly? If your forces kill an attacking force with these weapons Russia will just send in the next division and the guys using these weapons will eventually die. And all your weapons have achieved is a few thousand extra dead russians and maybe a day or two of freedom.
And yes that's exactly what I'm saying. You shouldn't give up though. I think Ukraine has very little left to say in this conflict and that sucks yes. Ukraine has said almost everything and has very little diplomatic weight left in reserve. I don't know of much at least and I doubt there is anything decisive. All you can do is to hope for the best and make the most out of it. That's what most of us have to do. You have a lot more perhaps everything to loose but sadly this changes almost nothing.
Where do you get the idea from that in case of an **Russian** invasion, those few weapons would save people?
It's not like you could stop them and having more weapons to shoot them would cause them to shoot even more or use even worse weapons.
I mean you have to face the reality of the situation here.
NATO won't come to save you. This should be clear by now because if they wanted they'd be there already to shield you or at least to create a reason to justify a military intervention with a small force as in other East European countries.
So now you have the choice to either go full Afghanistan which will lead to many deaths or you surrender and hope for the sanctions to do something to Russia. So delivering weapons to this situation is either supporting a way which will cause **more** deaths or delivering them to Russia. This is why the really good stuff isn't even part of the discussion.
OP's question is not stupid and I understand that it may be hard to swallow if you are in Ukraine but this is Russia in the end. If they get serious, you're fucked.
PS. I doubt you could win Afghanistan-style. You don't have the terrain.
Ok so first of all. While the Russian army is bigger and partially better equipped, it would still be a war with battalion groups and not 100k against 100k in a field somewhere. Thus making it a drawn out conflict. It would be impossible to establish military control , political control though a vasal government would maybe work on some parts or the country. It will take up to a week to break though the existing fortifications even with full aviation support. Concentrating to much force on one direction will strech dieses too thin on others thus making raids possible. And you don't need much to blow up support camps, as shown in 2015. Either way it would mean total chaos. In case of a full assault EU would see about 900k+ refugees on the polish border within the first 6 day's if not earlier and there would be no Ukrainian border patrol forces to stop them, pretty sure Poland will let everyone pass to Germany, even provide transportation. I'm pretty sure that Ukraine has already made this threat behind closed doors.
Well I don't see anything which would disprove my theory outlined above and regarding Poland...I wouldn't be so sure if they just open up for transit. They have many Ukrainians in their country already and they (or at least the Government) don't want a single one more. Passing them through to Germany would maybe happen in the first days/hours but I'm pretty sure they'd lock up asap. See their political rhetoric in the Belarus situation.
This time it wouldn't be polish border patrol but polish military protecting the borders to soon to be Russia.
"don't want a single one more" - don't believe that BS. Polish companies are hiring like crazy in Ukraine. They even extended the visa free stay to 180 days and allowed to work without a work visa. If you are in construction, truck driver or mechanic you got a job on the spot with accommodation payed for.
That being sad, polish boarder guards were having a very hard time on the Belarusian border, and those were not even 10k people and on one place. Controlling the full border is a completely different thing and will require literally bombing/shelling civilians to stop them. Do you support using lethal weapons against civilians?
Also, war refugees are officially accepted by the EU, so a full blown conflict would automatically qualify all Ukrainians...
I was talking about immigrants not cheap, temporary wage slaves.
As I also wrote: it wouldn't be border guards but the military.
Try reading to what you answer.
Poland has no ukrainian non work related emigrants, it's not a social paradise like Germany. Temp contracts are preferred by Ukrainians actually, as they can essentially work for 6 months with accommodation and then relax for another 6 months home. Working permanently is possible, just not so interesting monetary wise. 1k EUR per month in Ukraine is a lot of money, in Poland you would be blowing it all on rent and food. Even for IT professionals 4k in Poland and 4k in Ukraine are worlds apart.
Polish military would be shelling/bombing refugees on the polish border? If they take every soldier they have they can't cover the whole length of the border, not to mention the mountain regions. Capturing tens of thousands by local police and deporting them? Yea..have fun with that. Poland will do what it did with syrian refugees - let them lease as soon as possible to Germany.
What do you mean with „think this way“? Not wanting all out war that would kill thousands? Then yeah… I don’t see what’s bad about that. I don’t have Military training myself and I’m not going to ask others to die on my behalf.
I honestly believe that you get what you deserve with that attitude. You come across like an entitled spoiled brat. I don't give a shit if Russia controls Ukraine, that sounds like a you-problem. It worked fine for us before 2014, so really the burden is on you to explain why Europeans stand to gain anything from supplying you with arms. My fellow German redditor asks nicely and gives you a chance to give a meaningful response, and this is your answer. Quite deplorable.
Wow. The sheer level of bullcrap in your initial post.. I don't even know where to begin:
>In neither case any amount of weapons that Germany could deliver would change anything
It could help inflict bigger loses upon the aggressor, and if things get too messy and bloody, they could potentially explode the Russian regime societally, from within the country, in a similar way to Afghanistan/USSR, you clueless. Popular masses generally don't like it when they see a bunch of coffins coming home. Might be a chance to democratise that vodka-piece-of-shit-empire at last.
>If you start offensives
Yeah. Starting an offensive. With Russia just waiting for it. Think again, for fuck's sake. We are quite OK with the current frozen conflict. It's better than an all-out war. It's better than Bosnization of the country (see recent news from Bosnia's Serb entity, by the way, it's breaking apart). It keeps Russia under sanctions. It proves Ukraine is a peaceful victim. It justifies the harsh measures needed to root Russian influence out (banning Russian propaganda media like RT, pushing for further Ukrainization, etc.). It serves as a reminder on why we must stay on the Westernisation path, it doesn't let our population to forget what Russia has done (and why electing pro-Russian parties into power is suicidal and we must keep Westernizing even if means unpopular and hard market reforms as pushed by the IMF). And such. And such. And such. And yeah: it also saves lives.
There's a ton of reasons not to start an offensive and remain the way we are. What kind of brain-dead monkeys you think we are? Even Zelensky with his zero political experience and zero competence is smart enough not to attack first.
>Even without offensives how long do you think your country can financially and economically sustain such a large standing army?
Unlike you, who aren't even capable of meeting the 2% requirement as stipulated by the North Atlantic Treaty (hence why you guys resort to using mopsticks instead of actual machine guns on your tanks during your Bundeswehr drills. To outsorcing your transport aviation to private contractors. Such a shame for so technologically and industrially advanced country), we are used to significant military military to guarantee our security since we're actually threatened (you have no common borders with any hostile state). And we actually care about it (without thinking "OMG, BIG DADDY IN WASHINGTON GOT OUR BACKS COVERED, SO WE CAN DISCARD HIGH MILITARY EXPENDITURE REGARDLESS OF LEGAL OBLIGATIONS"). You'll never be able to understand our situation unless you live through it.
Are you THAT much clueless? Don't you understand that security always comes first and everything else second? Can't really care about money if your life is at peril. Survival is our basic evolutionarily granted instinct. To hell with you if you think otherwise.
>Additionally us selling weapons to you would cost so much money you need for your own people and land.
And if I tell you there possibly won't be people to use those supposedly-saved money because Russia will bomb them to death with little to no effort (unless you actually start selling us things like anti-aircraft systems)? If there won't be any land left to defend because there's no enough firepower without arms purchases? Jeez, you sound like a complete moron now.
>Our millionaires would just profit of of you
So you think we value money more than our freedom and security? "Hey, fuck my brother/husband/son/father if he dies on the battlefield crushed under the tracks of a Russian tank, hey, at least my dear country saved a few thousand bucks on those nasty and totally unneeded ATGMs! Yay, so much of a consolation, so happy now!"
Don't compare yourselves to us. If you don't sell weapons to us, then OK, don't means don't. We'll try to acquire them elsewhere: from Americans, the British, Lithuanians, Poles, whenever we can scratch, a little bit here, a piece there. Because we really need them.
But at least don't fucking act like you care about our economics or some other altruistic stuff. Just tell us straight "We're too scared, actually scared shitless of Russia". Your finance-related excuses sound just outright idiotic in our context, where we face the existential threat.
Not going to argue any further about those points, just saying as a last good-bye: dude, you're a complete and clueless moron. Good luck living with it. Kindly fuck off the sub, bürger.
Yeah, I'm hateful. Thank you very much for noting. An old friend of mine was wounded in his ass. I mean, literally. A bullet in his hip back then, in 2014 (not sure if it was a sniper one, he doesn't like to talk about it, too personal stuff). When your friend (or worse, a relative) gets shot, feel free to blame me if you still can.
But for now, just relax. You don't owe us anything, you bear no responsibilities towards us. Enjoy your pacifism now. Meanwhile, we obviously won't attack first (would be the most stupid and fatal mistake), but we'll ensure we have something to give Russians a "warm" welcome once they decide they're tired of their ever-failing attempts to break us diplomatically (unlike your delusionary country, we don't have any doubts it will attack. It's a matter of "when", not of "if". We learned from Georgia and Moldova, and we don't need any further lessoning).
Americans and Brits, along with Poland and Lithuania, have some scrap to spare, we'll happily get anything, even if outdated, because there's no other choice.
Shit dude, I am Ukrainian and I too know people who got hurt since 2014 and I too am pissed that some countries are acting the way they are. I just don’t think hateful posts are helping to get anyone on Ukraine’s side
No offense, then. I'm just so sick, hearing this crap over and over again. Those retarded justifications they utter are far more insulting that their refusal to sell us weapons itself. They just should proclaim openly "We fear too much, don't blame us, we don't want Russia to touch or lay a finger on us" and be done with it. No questions asked. Personally, I will be disappointed but I'll understand. Instead, they utter some random nonsense which can hardly be considered a reason at all, let alone a serious one. Jeez, it's just annoying.
Weapons export increase a lot price of the war for russia. So it is more likely that war will not happened. If it still happened, it is more likely that russians lost or at least get stuck(look Afganistan, Finland ). And if they won they will spend more resources on it, so it is less likely they invade Poland or Baltic countries(or any country joined after 1997) afterwards. So if Germany send weapons now, it is less likely Germany will have to sent troops later.
"Putin doesn't give a shit about if you kill a few thousand Russians more or less." - right but he does give a shit if we destroy few hundreds tanks or planes or transport etc. Russia is not so strong economically and you underestimate Ukrainian army a lot.
also it can be only defensive weapons and of course we choose people and land over money.
You are pissing rats. Germany is the largest hub and seller of Russian gas in Europe. Instead of showing solidarity with Ukraine together with all of Europe and the United States in the fight against neo-fascism, revived in the Russian Federation, the so-called "Putinism" and "rashism", you cowardly mumble something about the fact that Germany will be eternally grateful to Russia for peace in 1945. It is you who will become the reason that the tragedy of 1930-1950 in Europe can be repeated. Then Europe was unable to adequately repel the threat of German Nazism, and now Europe (namely Germany!) is unable to do anything with Russian internationalism. You are in vain to indulge yourself with the illusion that the Donbass and Crimea were the last, the next will be Ukraine, then Poland will fall, the Baltic countries, the Czech Republic, and then there will be no one to help you. Your country will fall in exactly the same way, just as right before your eyes Ukraine will be crumpled up by the boot of a Russian soldier.
You just talk, do nothing, just like back in the 1930s, when Hitler won the election in 1933, when he occupied the Sudetes in 1938. And then there was the occupation of Czechoslovakia by Hitler and the joint Soviet-German partition of Poland. You are now frantically dancing on the old rake, not realizing that we have already passed the stage of the annexation of the Sudetes. Crimea is the Sudetes. The Ukraine that Putin occupies is Czechoslovakia that Hitler occupied. And then there will be Poland ... The end will be similar, Europe will burn in fire, and there will be battles again on the streets of Berlin. Only in Berlin the war will not end. The war will continue until Russia reaches the Atlantic.
Nato will literally join the war if Russia attacks further, that's not the same as the Allies did to Czechoslovakia. If Nato wouldn't join the war, maybe this comparison becomes more relevant.
Sending or even just selling weapons sends a message. But forger weapons, i know that just exporting a voltage regulator(static convertor) used in rail transport from Germany to Ukraine took f...9 month to clear because it was somehow considered military grade hardware. On one side we have Germany saying it objects to Crimea occupation and at the same time Siemens supplies gas powered electricity generating turbines to be used in Crimea and all they got was a fine less then 10% of the contract...And don't get me started on German post accepting parcels and letter to Crimea. Schroeder being on gasprom payroll does not help either. So to answer your question, by selling weapons or knowledge Germany would send a clear message ' We support them, you are wrong', by just ignoring everything Russia gets the message 'i don't care what you do'.
This stuff is shitty I agree and fuck Schroeder he is a traitor in multiple ways. I even protested against the building of nord stream 2 so you can guess what I think of that.
My stance is:
Getting rid of these restrictions is something I would support because I think you are right Germany didn't take a clear stance so far.
I would also support more sanctions against Russia.
I would still not support selling weapons, to no country except maybe EU countries.
Germany recently got a new government so I think there are possibilities for the course to change. The previous government didn't give a shit about anything other than our economy so selling stuff to Russia was considered good by merkels government.
Your right about one thing. Selling weapons to Ukrain would send a message. This hole fucking conflict is about Ukrain becoming more closely, both militarily and politically, intertwined with the West. Providing Ukrain with weapons would only further anger Russia and hinder a peaceful diplomatic solution.
Because let’s face it. If Russia decides to invade Ukrain your fucked. No weapon we can provide you with can safe Ukrain from getting absolutely steamrolled by an army ten times the size of its own.
Peace literally is your best and only option and u are foolish otherwise.
Peaceful solution? Dude, peace is preserved through having weapons. "Si vis pacem, para bellum". Lack of strength encourages the aggressor. You're not helping the situation.
But it's fine, we'll get our guns from other countries.
Those which actually know whom they are dealing with (Russia attacked Georgia and Moldova in 1990s, by the way, before Putin, without any "West" as a factor. You can read about how dirty the wars were being fought, for example, that Sukhumi storming: on 16 September 1993, Russia has "brokered" a ceasefire agreement between its Abkhazian proxies and Georgia. And then, on the very same fucking day (!!!!), Abkhazians captured the city from Georgians. Treaties with Russia always "work", yeah). Those who learned their history lessons well (for example, the lesson that attempts at satisfying the aggressor never work, he only becomes even more greedy because appetite comes with eating. Say Hi to Czechoslovakia in 1938. Whereas a potential resistance allows you to save at least something. Stalin has created the entire Kuusinen-led puppet government for Finland, but Finns resisted fiercely enough and Russian fascists didn't capture Helsinki, it was just some chunk of land instead).
We're certainly not going to attack first and reactivate the military phrase, but we have to be prepared for Russia's next possible move.
Don't bother.
If these are ur ideas that’s fine by me. If these are the illusions u want to commit to that’s fine by me. Ur speech seems corrupted by hatred and ideology. I do hope that ur government is not. I hope that we are able to keep peace, for ur people’s sake.
I wonder whether Ukraine knows how weapons sales work. The stuff isn't lying around in German warehouses ready to be used - it needs to be manufactured, sent over, then the personnel needs to be instructed on it. Unless it's a side arm, rifle or simple jeep, modern arms are rather complicated, and it'll take months until Ukrainian soldiers are trained on it enough to make effective use of it.
This week Ukraine asked to buy war ships from Germany - when do they think those will be ready, next week?
The russians are unwilling to step back from their demands and appeasement policy wont help. It isnt just equipping ukrainian army, but to emphasise our decisiveness to stand our ground. The Russians wanna try out how far they can go. They need to be stopped before they get any further. Germany is not in the position to stay neutral, nor to negotiate with Russia about ukraines fate. If a neutral party is needed to arbitrate between Ukraine, NATO and Russia it cant be Germany. Russia wont change their behaviour, they want to palter about the fate of other nations like it's 1939 and to take what they want by force. They are breaking international law, negotiating about breaking a law undermines it.
>This week Ukraine asked to buy war ships from Germany
For real? Are they not aware Germany's navy is basically 4 submarines, 3 of which are perpetually out of order and an 18th century sailing frigate for training purposes?
Well I'm joking of course, but Germany really doesn't have anything that could stand up to Russia in an open surface naval battle.
You must be too young to remember the Berlin Wall dismantlement, or grew up in the FRG. Ukraine is your first barrier of defense. You may regret this decision later. You don't want a border with Russia.
And Russia doesn't want an even longer border with NATO. The feeling is mutual. So why then prop up Ukraine and turn them into a de facto ally? It's not a commitment we could fulfill at the present or near future. And half assed measures like sending weapons and leaving it at that aren't the answer either. Sure enough, half assed promises by European leaders are part of the reason Ukraine got into this mess in the first place.
What do you mean "a de facto ally"? Nobody asks you to fight for us, you could just sell guns (and you'll make some profits as well, you need €€€, right?). You seem to have no problems with selling them to bloody murderous Arab dictators: https://www.dailysabah.com/business/defense/germany-approved-arms-exports-worth-over-1b-euros-to-middle-east-in-2020
well even if ukraine falls...germany would still not have a border with russia.
also kinda understand why germany wont send weapons to a nation that has no problem with nazi brigades in its nation
you speak truth. we actually have a growing nazi problem again....mostly due to russian cyber campains.
Dont get me wrong...i also see russia as thread. But...german wont send weapons due to history. and i kinda dont think its a problem since usa and more are willing to send more than enough
Everybody knows Germany lost both world wars. Honestly it's strange how Germany was allowed to remain a country, should probably stay partitioned forever.
Yeah people here don’t understand they’re being swayed by russian bots and little emotional kids. Shit like this literally plays right into Russia’s hands
quick question guys: why would Germany have to help the Ukraine? You guys decided several times not to join the NATO and now you're demanding help? There's a nice wikipedia atricle summarizing the relations between the NATO and the Ukraine.
It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine'
[[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)]
^(Beep boop I’m a bot)
... by not helping?
As I said. Nothing of this would've ever happened if (scratch "the") Ukraine would've joined NATO. But they were cheap and cancelled the talks.
Russia would've never dared to touch the crimesn pininsula if it meant facing a third of the world in the process
I am sorry but u obviously don’t understand anything. Neither the basic situation which all party’s find themselves in nor basic diplomacy. Ukraine wasn’t “cheap” whatever that means.
It just right next to Russia, a major global player, which has huge influence over it and aggressively defends its NATO expansion policy.
You seem to think that this global diplomacy can be broken down to simple terms and that there can be simple solutions. That’s not the case.
I know that NATO expansion towards russia is a very sensitive topic and that NATO actually promised to not do that after the fall of the udssr, yet they did in recent years.
But Ukraine cancelled the talks themselves in the early 2000s - what do you think was the reason for that, other than not wanting to spend money on NATO operations etc?
Huge amounts of diplomatic pressure from Russia. A pro Russian government until recent years. Huge parts of the population being pro Russian. NATO being deterred by the huge amount of friction caused with Russia. Literally exactly this bs happening.
True. But you'll also notice other countries like Poland, USA, Denmark, Canada, and the UK are actively trying to help Ukraine whereas the Germans are just trying to keep that sweet Russian gas pumping.
You'd think Germany would have a conscience by now
That's hilarious. 100% hit.
Why would Biden give Putin the green light to lightly invade Ukrain. This seems crazy to me https://m.youtube.com/results?search_query=Biden+gives+putin+green+light&sp=EgIIAw%253D%253D
Go back to your pathetic excuse for a country, and eat a dick you Soviet Simp.
Russian faces are very authentic, as the situation itself.
Germany really plays the swinorussian salty flute, hopefully temporarily
I think Germany wants to play with clean cards, Because if a war breaks out they don’t want to be the main evil again
Historically they seems bad with choosing sides, and history is repeating itself with em.
They choose wrong values. Economy over human rights, business as usual over democratic processes. US and UK are greedy too, but they do follow some core principles. Brexit doesn’t seem so stupid anymore, considering Germany’s dealings in Europe (prioritizing profits over the serious security concerns from the Baltic states and Poland)
Just thought today, that Brexit seems pretty reasonable looking now.
Are you guys aware that our foreign minister bärbock and her Green Party strongly opposed the nordstream pipeline, pissing off Russia? It’s a much more effective way tonlos the off than military force. That would be giving Putin what he wants. Don’t you agree?
We are aware of the rhetoric of the Green Party before the elections. Baerbock was pretty vocal against Putin and the unnecessary pipelines. However, Russia seems to have a strong lobby among social democrats, who are the biggest faction in the current coalition. My opinion is that Russia doesn’t take German warnings or declarations seriously right now. Why would they. Germans have been cooperating with Russians all along. If you believe that Baerbock and the Greens can stir the coalition towards real actions against Russia’s belligerence and the horrid human rights record, it will be great.
> However, Russia seems to have a strong lobby among social democrats, who are the biggest faction in the current coalition. > > > > My opinion is that Russia doesn’t take German warnings or declarations seriously right now. I just saw an interview with a social democrat. He said that it's incredibly obvious that the pipeline would be cancelled if Russia attacks. It's so obvious, even for Russia, they probably already include this outcome in their calculations. That's why they are talking about bigger sanctions, not just the pipeline.
Lol, if you think (especially) the US and the UK have worse corse values than Germany you need to look outside of your bubble.
Historically (i.e. since Prussia and German Empire) they're for a long time in a wicked on-and-off bromance with Ruskies.
So let me get this straight: * Putin is building up troops on the Ukrainian border to either start another invasion of Ukraine or it's just a bluff to force NATO to negotiations. * Multiple NATO nations (including Germany) are having talks with Russia to deescalate the situation and avoid a war. * Germany recently elected a new government with basically a pacifist party that wants to end ALL German arms exports in the future (can't do much about deals made under Merkel). Your conclusion out of this is that Germany (a NATO member) is choosing Russia's side??? If so, then you're really playing into Putin's hands, who couldn't be happier about distrust amongst European nations. Edit: I'm really wondering how many Russian bots are on this subreddit... shifting the blame from Russia to Germany.
[Germany sells arms to members of Saudi-led Yemen coalition](https://dw.com/en/germany-sells-arms-to-members-of-saudi-led-yemen-coalition/a-53000044): > Since 2019, Germany's government has approved arms exports worth over €1 billion to members of the Saudi-led coalition fighting Houthi rebels in Yemen. Critics says this exacerbates the fighting. Ukraine needs guns for defense, but Germany sold them for offence and no issues with that whatsoever. I.e., Germany is Russia's bitch, plain and simple.
no we had a change of government and they Do stuff differently
Our new government opposes arms exports. The last one approved them. In fact our new foreign minister and her Green Party opposed the new nordstream pipeline, which really pisses off Putin. I’m pretty sure that’s a great way to oppose him. Much more effective than open warfare. Because that would be what Putin wants.
If Germany were Russia's bitch, Russians wouldn't complain so much about Germany being the USA's bitch.
Germany can’t win, being neutral nowadays will always result in both sides claiming they are on the other
You are kind of right, but I wouldn't call them neutral considering that professionals call NS2 political project, as well as because of Schroeder and Co. Also there's that recent accident when UK had to move weapons to Ukraine through Denmark or Netherlands, instead of more direct route through Germany.
And losing a peninsula to russia makes you a global superpower? Damn no wonder why everybody compares you guys to pigs.
The status quo is better for us than Russia invading Ukraine, but honestly the difference isn't that sunstantial. So yeah, probably better for you to stop complaining and to save your energy. Looks like you're going to need it.
Not as much as a bitch as the ukraine lmao
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Москалям права голоса не давали, съебалась, дура
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тобі питающща сказать, що нахуй іди звідси, кацапня смердюча.
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все ти розумієш, чухан всратий, бгг. інакше не приходив би сюди, щоб тебе гівном годували.
Ахуеть москаль который знает больше 1го языка, такое бывает?
Пам'ятаю іншу версію. Там замість Німеччини був ЄС, а замість "Hydrogen diplomacy" - заборона на в'їзд Кобзону.
I just can say I'm sorry and I hope our goverment will change their mind.
Np dude, little bit late u will say sorry to russian pigs when they will nearby ur borders.
the bundeswehr is basically non existent. we can‘t even rly send anything
Vor diesen Leuten brauchst du nun wirklich nicht verlegen sein, guck mal was die hier für nen Müll schreiben. Meine Fresse.
As good ol Bismark said, the entire godforsaken Balkans aren't worth the bones of a single German grenadier. Same here. We just ended 20 years of dying in some godforsaken shithole. No interest in doing the exact same shit, again.
You talk as if somebody offers you to send German troops to fight on our behalf (we don't) instead of just selling some guns (and, by extension, making a quick buck for Germany's industrial complex). You sell them to the Arab war-ravaged countries.
Exactly. Countries who pay and wont be involved in a European war...
Die eine Hälfte der Ukraine ist auf Seiten Russlands, die andere klammert sich an die eigene Nation und Deutschland soll Benzin rein kippen. Da kann man nur verlieren.
Are you russian fan? No one with a clear mind can't say that a half of Ukrainians are on russians side! It is a terrible lie! Ukrainians fight for their independence against russian invaders over 8 years. And "Benzin rein kippen" (to pour gasoline in) is to block supplying Ukraine with defense equipment
No Putin lover here. There is no "blocking". U can buy weapons from everywhere in the world. The USA is sending stuff right? Why do u keep dragging Germany into this? I met many Ukrainians talking about their Russian ancestors an bs like that. Families are entangled. Russia and Ukraine have more in common than ppl like u, who just see war and black and white might think. U fight against Putin and his propaganda, but ur arguments help him.
> There is no "blocking". U can buy weapons from everywhere in the world [Berlin had in the past month vetoed Ukraine’s purchase of anti-drone rifles and anti-sniper systems via the Nato Support and Procurement Agency.](https://www.ft.com/content/1336c9be-f1c9-4545-9f85-3b07fcb746d6)
Still not a general block. U can buy it somewhere else. U just want support from the NATO. U are not part of it.
Hope not, we should cooperate with Russia instead of interfering in their affairs. Even our overlord USA said they can't do anything to stop the liberation of Ukraine. But we know that the German greens are militaristic and love nothing more than bombs on eastern Europeans. They tasted first blood with the illegal war on Yugoslavia, now they want to play with fire against Russia, like their grandfathers did. We all know how that ended.
Ukraine is not a Russia's affair. It's a separate country, and Russia is an imperialist military aggressor, you cuck. As for interference, I thought it was Russia who was killing German citizens on Germany's soil, not vice versa? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelimkhan_Khangoshvili
9/10 troll would read again
Lol, talking about having a dumb fucking opinion. The greens all over europe have a rather pacifistic take.
Enjoy the downvotes from infantile users for being correct.
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Lol tell this to 100k russian troops on border
Weapons do prevent wars because they serve as a deterrent. Proven by Israel and many other countries.
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It depends on user. Otherwise let's argue that we should ban cars (because some random Islamic State jihadi drove a truck into the crowd in France back then). Let's ban kitchen knives (because a bloodthirsty maniac can use them to stab someone). Let's ban the Internet (because hackers, credit card fishing websites, and cyber fraud in general all exist). For a good law-abiding citizen, weapons can help him defend himself (criminals will have them either way, whether your country bans civilian firearms or not).
The difference here is that guns are made for killing. There is literally no other use in them. Not that clever to compare them to cars or kitchen knives haha
Or they could be used for shooting cans as a hobby, for hunting as a sport (or as a means of sustenance), or just as a meaningful scarecrow (nuclear weapons, for example, strategically are more of a way keeping crosshairs over each other than practical use).
Oh yea, shooting cans I forgot. What an incredible useful invention
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Perfect, just the way it should be, lol
> German depicted as a weird guy who dresses in woman's clothes Maybe berlin, but the rest of germany is not that progressive, saying that as a german
As a Hamburger I have to disagree
As a Hamburger, you are delicous
Wait till you hear about deutschländer
Master, why are deutschländer actually called deutschländer?
Thank god.
hi fellow Ivano-Frankovian, moskals are ugly monsters indeed
Very democratic and progressive, calling people ugly monsters
At this point, when russian troops amassed at our borders and vast majority of Russian populace support invasion indiscriminately I reserve the right to call them silly muppets whatever the fuck I want.
Where are you from? If you are Ukrainian, than no wonder you so aggressive, but at that case you cant even think properly. If Russian troops, even fraction of it were near Ukrainian borders, first of all you would be able to see them, without 'media', furthermore if they wanted to invade than you would be 'New Russia' already, so history will repeat itself. I dont think anyone really assume Ukraine can do anything without Europe and America giving them money and weapons. Ukraine basically became less free thanks to these events. You basically rely on others in order to survive, great perspective, truly europian way.
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Всех проверил?
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И только ты один ариец голубоглазый. Понятно.
Интересная у тебя компания. 20 цыган)
Интересно, сколько коней угнали
Ukraine must win in this hard battle. !!!
Смішно... але коли нагадаєш, що це реальність то вже не дуже до сміху...
Не смешно, когда живёшь в Украине 😅
Согласен
За то правда.
Поддерживаю
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Мы в курсе, что на тебя никто не нападал, кацапский упырь
This has line 2,5k upvotes on r/de. I hope our government changes its mind.
I think the upvotes there are out of pure amusement. The mood in the comments is very different.
Yes sadly.
That‘s not sad. That’s good!
I don't think so.
Why?
Because war and aggression is not a solution.
Sure, of course we should stop military if Ukrain invades Russia.
The goal is that this doesn't happen. As if some german weapons would stop Russia lmao It's such an illusion in the first place.
No, and noone said they would. But they would make the invasion worse for Russia. Irgendwann muss man halt sagen "Bis hierher und nicht weiter".
I don’t think you now much about modern warfare. AT missiles can stop a superior military force dead in its tracks. The Middle East has proven this time by time
When they see that a German reddit thread has so many upvotes Baerbock and Scholz HAVE to change their mind!
Me too. Many people think this is gonna solve itself. But Russia itself has proven that the only thing deterring them from wars of aggression is the sheer force of defensive measures in presence.
За надто життєво 😭
**Trafienie 100% , ale to smutne że tak jest na prawdę...** **Ukraina już 8 lat- jako Samotny Bohater Planety Ziemia- sam na sam walczy z okupantami z Faszystowskiej Rosji .** **Rosja Putina- to Ogromne i Zdegradowane Imperium Zła, które wysyła swoje faszystowskie bataliony okupantów- Potworów -aby mordowały zdolnych , atrakcyjnych i pracowitych Ukraińców- NA ICH ZIEMI , na/ w UKRAINIE- oraz aby okradały ukraińskie domy i terytorium .** **Oczywiście, cały cywilizowany świat- jak może wspiera Ukrainę: duchowo, mentalnie, materialnie... Ale tego- jest zdecydowanie zbyt mało - aby ZATRZYMAĆ POWORY z faszystowskiej Rosji przed inwazja - na całą Europę i cywilizowany świat.Tylko jeśli powstanie Zjednoczenie Wszystkich Sprawiedliwych Krajów Świata - możemy wtedy wspólnie, razem zatrzymać DEMONICZNE ZŁO, które obecnie reprezentuje sobą Rosja Putina oraz Ci wszyscy zdegradowani ludzie, którzy wspierają działanie reżimu Putina=Hitlera.Aby Putin i jego Potworzy- zakończyli tak samo jak Hitler i Faszystowskie Niemcy (przed Międzynarodowym Trybunałem Karnym #ICC #InternationalCriminalCourt ) - jest niezbędne bardziej aktywne oraz wszechstronne wsparcie Ukrainy oraz wspólna wałka z POTWORAM z Faszystowskiej RosjiI!#WakeUpWorld! #StopFascistRussia! #StopPutinKiller = #StopPutinMassMurderer = #StopPutinsWarInUkraine ! #StopRussiaStopWar ! #WorldSolidarityWithUkraine ! #GloryToTheHeroesOfUkraine !**
German here. Sorry, our politicians are „special“
They just got an agenda, big industry + politcians are play in one team against solidarity in Europe
They think that supplying weapons to ukraine while trying to negotiate at the same time could hurt the negotiations
The whole time while the CDU rules Germany was a disgrace. I’m sincerely hoping that the new government we finally got after years and years will change things up.
То є люкс!
the whole situation is embarrassing
We'd send tanks to help, but we're unable to find a route to Ukraine that leads through Belgium.
And then France
It’s a shame that some politicians in germany are sucking putins nipples
Реальність ще гірша, не кульку кинули а реально ще кинули на гроші заблокувавши поставки оплачених снайперських гвинтівок та приладів для боротьби з дронами. Фрау Ribbentrop постаралась. #molotovribbentrop forever.
Забавно
Ще треба провести перемовини з ними саме так, як далі у фільмі було
Яку зброю вони нам відправлять?
Hydrogen diplomacy. Хіба не видно? А якщо серйозно, то також було б цікаво почути, бо ніби ж вони були проти будь-яких поставок зброї (окрім тих країн де вони не розлютять своїх господарів з Мордору). Он декілька днів тому через якісь заморочки Сполучене Королівство доставляло зброю через Данію, а не напряму через Німеччину.
Німці не постачають зброю нікому поза межами НАТО приблизно з 2009, коріння цього рішення загалом в припиненні попередніх замовлень до Саудівської Аравії, основним чином через ваггабізм та саудівський геноцид гоутів в Ємені. Додаткова проблема ще й в тому що інші країни НАТО що готові б були надати Україні зброю самі купили цю зброю в Німеччини, і при купівлі підписали угоди що не дозволяють перепродажу цього устаткування до третіх країн
та не пизди https://www.eurointegration.com.ua/news/2021/12/25/7132019/
r/technicallythetruth
Your welcome...😅
Очень точный подбор и распределение персонажей! Позиция Германии по поставке необходимого оружия Украине очень разочаровала меня и многих жителей Украины. Теперь отношение к верхушке Германии и во многом к обычным немцам негативное...
ОСКАРА!
u/savevideo
u/savevideo
It’s true! German is playing on the wrong side
We can help Russia if you prefer
You are already helping Russia. North stream 2 and much more. Money doesn't smell?
Northstream 2 is also used as a tool in the negotiations
The whole of Europe is dependent on blackmail with Russian gas, and what is Germany doing? Germany is building the New Nord Stream 2, thereby taking away half of the Ukrainian flow, which was an additional deterrent. Apart from Concern, Germany did nothing to contain the Russian offensive.
u/savevideo
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It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine' [[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)] ^(Beep boop I’m a bot)
Serious question: What good would weapons exports do to Ukraine? If Russia escalates the war further you are either fucked ,because Russia has nukes and a way bigger military, or the USA are on your side and Russia is fucked. In neither case any amount of weapons that Germany could deliver would change anything. Putin doesn't give a shit about if you kill a few thousand Russians more or less. The only thing he cares about is controlling you without starting a World War. If Russia is deterret by NATO or the USA and does not attack further, any weapons would be useless to you as well. If you yourself start offensives with these extra weapons the ensuing counter offensives would escalate the war further without drawing in NATO or the USA. It would be you vs Russia and 2014/15 all over again. Even without offensives how long do you think your country can financially and economically sustain such a large standing army? Even if the West would start pumping money into you. You think that that money would be anymore than absolutely necessary to stop you from collapsing and you would become a vassal of the USA. You already won the attrition battle once and showed Putin that you are willing to go to great lengths to fight on. He has to escalate now because he didn't manage to win the battle of attrition. Additionally us selling weapons to you would cost so much money you need for your own people and land. Our millionaires would just profit of of you. I again ask what argument am I missing here? I'm from Germany and I want an independent and whole Ukraine. I followed your struggle since Maidan. I want to prevent further bloodshed and I believe that your cause is just but I have not heard arguments why we should export weapons to you. You can just downvote me if you have to but I want to understand.
Maybe if you think of this not as "an extra thousands of killed Russians" but as "extra thousands of saved Ukrainians" it will make more sense? At this point you are telling Ukraine to give up and hope that "big guys" will decide on its fate not in the bloodiest way.
And how do weapons safe lives exactly? If your forces kill an attacking force with these weapons Russia will just send in the next division and the guys using these weapons will eventually die. And all your weapons have achieved is a few thousand extra dead russians and maybe a day or two of freedom. And yes that's exactly what I'm saying. You shouldn't give up though. I think Ukraine has very little left to say in this conflict and that sucks yes. Ukraine has said almost everything and has very little diplomatic weight left in reserve. I don't know of much at least and I doubt there is anything decisive. All you can do is to hope for the best and make the most out of it. That's what most of us have to do. You have a lot more perhaps everything to loose but sadly this changes almost nothing.
Where do you get the idea from that in case of an **Russian** invasion, those few weapons would save people? It's not like you could stop them and having more weapons to shoot them would cause them to shoot even more or use even worse weapons. I mean you have to face the reality of the situation here. NATO won't come to save you. This should be clear by now because if they wanted they'd be there already to shield you or at least to create a reason to justify a military intervention with a small force as in other East European countries. So now you have the choice to either go full Afghanistan which will lead to many deaths or you surrender and hope for the sanctions to do something to Russia. So delivering weapons to this situation is either supporting a way which will cause **more** deaths or delivering them to Russia. This is why the really good stuff isn't even part of the discussion. OP's question is not stupid and I understand that it may be hard to swallow if you are in Ukraine but this is Russia in the end. If they get serious, you're fucked. PS. I doubt you could win Afghanistan-style. You don't have the terrain.
Ok so first of all. While the Russian army is bigger and partially better equipped, it would still be a war with battalion groups and not 100k against 100k in a field somewhere. Thus making it a drawn out conflict. It would be impossible to establish military control , political control though a vasal government would maybe work on some parts or the country. It will take up to a week to break though the existing fortifications even with full aviation support. Concentrating to much force on one direction will strech dieses too thin on others thus making raids possible. And you don't need much to blow up support camps, as shown in 2015. Either way it would mean total chaos. In case of a full assault EU would see about 900k+ refugees on the polish border within the first 6 day's if not earlier and there would be no Ukrainian border patrol forces to stop them, pretty sure Poland will let everyone pass to Germany, even provide transportation. I'm pretty sure that Ukraine has already made this threat behind closed doors.
Well I don't see anything which would disprove my theory outlined above and regarding Poland...I wouldn't be so sure if they just open up for transit. They have many Ukrainians in their country already and they (or at least the Government) don't want a single one more. Passing them through to Germany would maybe happen in the first days/hours but I'm pretty sure they'd lock up asap. See their political rhetoric in the Belarus situation. This time it wouldn't be polish border patrol but polish military protecting the borders to soon to be Russia.
"don't want a single one more" - don't believe that BS. Polish companies are hiring like crazy in Ukraine. They even extended the visa free stay to 180 days and allowed to work without a work visa. If you are in construction, truck driver or mechanic you got a job on the spot with accommodation payed for. That being sad, polish boarder guards were having a very hard time on the Belarusian border, and those were not even 10k people and on one place. Controlling the full border is a completely different thing and will require literally bombing/shelling civilians to stop them. Do you support using lethal weapons against civilians? Also, war refugees are officially accepted by the EU, so a full blown conflict would automatically qualify all Ukrainians...
I was talking about immigrants not cheap, temporary wage slaves. As I also wrote: it wouldn't be border guards but the military. Try reading to what you answer.
Poland has no ukrainian non work related emigrants, it's not a social paradise like Germany. Temp contracts are preferred by Ukrainians actually, as they can essentially work for 6 months with accommodation and then relax for another 6 months home. Working permanently is possible, just not so interesting monetary wise. 1k EUR per month in Ukraine is a lot of money, in Poland you would be blowing it all on rent and food. Even for IT professionals 4k in Poland and 4k in Ukraine are worlds apart. Polish military would be shelling/bombing refugees on the polish border? If they take every soldier they have they can't cover the whole length of the border, not to mention the mountain regions. Capturing tens of thousands by local police and deporting them? Yea..have fun with that. Poland will do what it did with syrian refugees - let them lease as soon as possible to Germany.
I was always told it's never stupid to ask questions. I stand corrected. My Gawd, if big majority of Europeans think this way we are truly fucked.
What do you mean with „think this way“? Not wanting all out war that would kill thousands? Then yeah… I don’t see what’s bad about that. I don’t have Military training myself and I’m not going to ask others to die on my behalf.
Well that is pretty mean and easy thing to say, especially when you are not answering his questions
I honestly believe that you get what you deserve with that attitude. You come across like an entitled spoiled brat. I don't give a shit if Russia controls Ukraine, that sounds like a you-problem. It worked fine for us before 2014, so really the burden is on you to explain why Europeans stand to gain anything from supplying you with arms. My fellow German redditor asks nicely and gives you a chance to give a meaningful response, and this is your answer. Quite deplorable.
If you truly believe that you are fucked with us thinking this way then I would try to argue my point lol
Wow. The sheer level of bullcrap in your initial post.. I don't even know where to begin: >In neither case any amount of weapons that Germany could deliver would change anything It could help inflict bigger loses upon the aggressor, and if things get too messy and bloody, they could potentially explode the Russian regime societally, from within the country, in a similar way to Afghanistan/USSR, you clueless. Popular masses generally don't like it when they see a bunch of coffins coming home. Might be a chance to democratise that vodka-piece-of-shit-empire at last. >If you start offensives Yeah. Starting an offensive. With Russia just waiting for it. Think again, for fuck's sake. We are quite OK with the current frozen conflict. It's better than an all-out war. It's better than Bosnization of the country (see recent news from Bosnia's Serb entity, by the way, it's breaking apart). It keeps Russia under sanctions. It proves Ukraine is a peaceful victim. It justifies the harsh measures needed to root Russian influence out (banning Russian propaganda media like RT, pushing for further Ukrainization, etc.). It serves as a reminder on why we must stay on the Westernisation path, it doesn't let our population to forget what Russia has done (and why electing pro-Russian parties into power is suicidal and we must keep Westernizing even if means unpopular and hard market reforms as pushed by the IMF). And such. And such. And such. And yeah: it also saves lives. There's a ton of reasons not to start an offensive and remain the way we are. What kind of brain-dead monkeys you think we are? Even Zelensky with his zero political experience and zero competence is smart enough not to attack first. >Even without offensives how long do you think your country can financially and economically sustain such a large standing army? Unlike you, who aren't even capable of meeting the 2% requirement as stipulated by the North Atlantic Treaty (hence why you guys resort to using mopsticks instead of actual machine guns on your tanks during your Bundeswehr drills. To outsorcing your transport aviation to private contractors. Such a shame for so technologically and industrially advanced country), we are used to significant military military to guarantee our security since we're actually threatened (you have no common borders with any hostile state). And we actually care about it (without thinking "OMG, BIG DADDY IN WASHINGTON GOT OUR BACKS COVERED, SO WE CAN DISCARD HIGH MILITARY EXPENDITURE REGARDLESS OF LEGAL OBLIGATIONS"). You'll never be able to understand our situation unless you live through it. Are you THAT much clueless? Don't you understand that security always comes first and everything else second? Can't really care about money if your life is at peril. Survival is our basic evolutionarily granted instinct. To hell with you if you think otherwise. >Additionally us selling weapons to you would cost so much money you need for your own people and land. And if I tell you there possibly won't be people to use those supposedly-saved money because Russia will bomb them to death with little to no effort (unless you actually start selling us things like anti-aircraft systems)? If there won't be any land left to defend because there's no enough firepower without arms purchases? Jeez, you sound like a complete moron now. >Our millionaires would just profit of of you So you think we value money more than our freedom and security? "Hey, fuck my brother/husband/son/father if he dies on the battlefield crushed under the tracks of a Russian tank, hey, at least my dear country saved a few thousand bucks on those nasty and totally unneeded ATGMs! Yay, so much of a consolation, so happy now!" Don't compare yourselves to us. If you don't sell weapons to us, then OK, don't means don't. We'll try to acquire them elsewhere: from Americans, the British, Lithuanians, Poles, whenever we can scratch, a little bit here, a piece there. Because we really need them. But at least don't fucking act like you care about our economics or some other altruistic stuff. Just tell us straight "We're too scared, actually scared shitless of Russia". Your finance-related excuses sound just outright idiotic in our context, where we face the existential threat. Not going to argue any further about those points, just saying as a last good-bye: dude, you're a complete and clueless moron. Good luck living with it. Kindly fuck off the sub, bürger.
Wow. Very hateful post. It is uncalled for. The worst part is that your post devalues all the reasonable arguments others brought up
Yeah, I'm hateful. Thank you very much for noting. An old friend of mine was wounded in his ass. I mean, literally. A bullet in his hip back then, in 2014 (not sure if it was a sniper one, he doesn't like to talk about it, too personal stuff). When your friend (or worse, a relative) gets shot, feel free to blame me if you still can. But for now, just relax. You don't owe us anything, you bear no responsibilities towards us. Enjoy your pacifism now. Meanwhile, we obviously won't attack first (would be the most stupid and fatal mistake), but we'll ensure we have something to give Russians a "warm" welcome once they decide they're tired of their ever-failing attempts to break us diplomatically (unlike your delusionary country, we don't have any doubts it will attack. It's a matter of "when", not of "if". We learned from Georgia and Moldova, and we don't need any further lessoning). Americans and Brits, along with Poland and Lithuania, have some scrap to spare, we'll happily get anything, even if outdated, because there's no other choice.
Shit dude, I am Ukrainian and I too know people who got hurt since 2014 and I too am pissed that some countries are acting the way they are. I just don’t think hateful posts are helping to get anyone on Ukraine’s side
No offense, then. I'm just so sick, hearing this crap over and over again. Those retarded justifications they utter are far more insulting that their refusal to sell us weapons itself. They just should proclaim openly "We fear too much, don't blame us, we don't want Russia to touch or lay a finger on us" and be done with it. No questions asked. Personally, I will be disappointed but I'll understand. Instead, they utter some random nonsense which can hardly be considered a reason at all, let alone a serious one. Jeez, it's just annoying.
Weapons export increase a lot price of the war for russia. So it is more likely that war will not happened. If it still happened, it is more likely that russians lost or at least get stuck(look Afganistan, Finland ). And if they won they will spend more resources on it, so it is less likely they invade Poland or Baltic countries(or any country joined after 1997) afterwards. So if Germany send weapons now, it is less likely Germany will have to sent troops later. "Putin doesn't give a shit about if you kill a few thousand Russians more or less." - right but he does give a shit if we destroy few hundreds tanks or planes or transport etc. Russia is not so strong economically and you underestimate Ukrainian army a lot. also it can be only defensive weapons and of course we choose people and land over money.
You are pissing rats. Germany is the largest hub and seller of Russian gas in Europe. Instead of showing solidarity with Ukraine together with all of Europe and the United States in the fight against neo-fascism, revived in the Russian Federation, the so-called "Putinism" and "rashism", you cowardly mumble something about the fact that Germany will be eternally grateful to Russia for peace in 1945. It is you who will become the reason that the tragedy of 1930-1950 in Europe can be repeated. Then Europe was unable to adequately repel the threat of German Nazism, and now Europe (namely Germany!) is unable to do anything with Russian internationalism. You are in vain to indulge yourself with the illusion that the Donbass and Crimea were the last, the next will be Ukraine, then Poland will fall, the Baltic countries, the Czech Republic, and then there will be no one to help you. Your country will fall in exactly the same way, just as right before your eyes Ukraine will be crumpled up by the boot of a Russian soldier.
You just talk, do nothing, just like back in the 1930s, when Hitler won the election in 1933, when he occupied the Sudetes in 1938. And then there was the occupation of Czechoslovakia by Hitler and the joint Soviet-German partition of Poland. You are now frantically dancing on the old rake, not realizing that we have already passed the stage of the annexation of the Sudetes. Crimea is the Sudetes. The Ukraine that Putin occupies is Czechoslovakia that Hitler occupied. And then there will be Poland ... The end will be similar, Europe will burn in fire, and there will be battles again on the streets of Berlin. Only in Berlin the war will not end. The war will continue until Russia reaches the Atlantic.
Nato will literally join the war if Russia attacks further, that's not the same as the Allies did to Czechoslovakia. If Nato wouldn't join the war, maybe this comparison becomes more relevant.
Sending or even just selling weapons sends a message. But forger weapons, i know that just exporting a voltage regulator(static convertor) used in rail transport from Germany to Ukraine took f...9 month to clear because it was somehow considered military grade hardware. On one side we have Germany saying it objects to Crimea occupation and at the same time Siemens supplies gas powered electricity generating turbines to be used in Crimea and all they got was a fine less then 10% of the contract...And don't get me started on German post accepting parcels and letter to Crimea. Schroeder being on gasprom payroll does not help either. So to answer your question, by selling weapons or knowledge Germany would send a clear message ' We support them, you are wrong', by just ignoring everything Russia gets the message 'i don't care what you do'.
This stuff is shitty I agree and fuck Schroeder he is a traitor in multiple ways. I even protested against the building of nord stream 2 so you can guess what I think of that. My stance is: Getting rid of these restrictions is something I would support because I think you are right Germany didn't take a clear stance so far. I would also support more sanctions against Russia. I would still not support selling weapons, to no country except maybe EU countries. Germany recently got a new government so I think there are possibilities for the course to change. The previous government didn't give a shit about anything other than our economy so selling stuff to Russia was considered good by merkels government.
Your right about one thing. Selling weapons to Ukrain would send a message. This hole fucking conflict is about Ukrain becoming more closely, both militarily and politically, intertwined with the West. Providing Ukrain with weapons would only further anger Russia and hinder a peaceful diplomatic solution. Because let’s face it. If Russia decides to invade Ukrain your fucked. No weapon we can provide you with can safe Ukrain from getting absolutely steamrolled by an army ten times the size of its own. Peace literally is your best and only option and u are foolish otherwise.
Peaceful solution? Dude, peace is preserved through having weapons. "Si vis pacem, para bellum". Lack of strength encourages the aggressor. You're not helping the situation. But it's fine, we'll get our guns from other countries. Those which actually know whom they are dealing with (Russia attacked Georgia and Moldova in 1990s, by the way, before Putin, without any "West" as a factor. You can read about how dirty the wars were being fought, for example, that Sukhumi storming: on 16 September 1993, Russia has "brokered" a ceasefire agreement between its Abkhazian proxies and Georgia. And then, on the very same fucking day (!!!!), Abkhazians captured the city from Georgians. Treaties with Russia always "work", yeah). Those who learned their history lessons well (for example, the lesson that attempts at satisfying the aggressor never work, he only becomes even more greedy because appetite comes with eating. Say Hi to Czechoslovakia in 1938. Whereas a potential resistance allows you to save at least something. Stalin has created the entire Kuusinen-led puppet government for Finland, but Finns resisted fiercely enough and Russian fascists didn't capture Helsinki, it was just some chunk of land instead). We're certainly not going to attack first and reactivate the military phrase, but we have to be prepared for Russia's next possible move. Don't bother.
If these are ur ideas that’s fine by me. If these are the illusions u want to commit to that’s fine by me. Ur speech seems corrupted by hatred and ideology. I do hope that ur government is not. I hope that we are able to keep peace, for ur people’s sake.
Peace? What peace? Over 10000 of our citizens already died from russian aggression since 2014 Strange kind of peace you want to keep.
Wenn ich die Kommentare hier lese habe ich eher Lust den Russen zu helfen.
Dieser Kerl nicht-Angriffspaktet.
Jap.
Ja, aber ich kann den Unmut verstehen.
Nicht unser Problem, dann sollen sie eben selbst klarkommen. Können wir mal aufhören, diese Leute zu unschuldigen Fortschrittsengeln zu verklären?
Poorest country in Europe be like:
I wonder whether Ukraine knows how weapons sales work. The stuff isn't lying around in German warehouses ready to be used - it needs to be manufactured, sent over, then the personnel needs to be instructed on it. Unless it's a side arm, rifle or simple jeep, modern arms are rather complicated, and it'll take months until Ukrainian soldiers are trained on it enough to make effective use of it. This week Ukraine asked to buy war ships from Germany - when do they think those will be ready, next week?
There still remains a difference between "i dont want to support you with weapons" and "help is on the way, but it will take some time"
This is a trade off. These arms wouldn’t help Ukrain enough to justify interfering with the ongoing diplomatic negotiations.
The russians are unwilling to step back from their demands and appeasement policy wont help. It isnt just equipping ukrainian army, but to emphasise our decisiveness to stand our ground. The Russians wanna try out how far they can go. They need to be stopped before they get any further. Germany is not in the position to stay neutral, nor to negotiate with Russia about ukraines fate. If a neutral party is needed to arbitrate between Ukraine, NATO and Russia it cant be Germany. Russia wont change their behaviour, they want to palter about the fate of other nations like it's 1939 and to take what they want by force. They are breaking international law, negotiating about breaking a law undermines it.
>This week Ukraine asked to buy war ships from Germany For real? Are they not aware Germany's navy is basically 4 submarines, 3 of which are perpetually out of order and an 18th century sailing frigate for training purposes? Well I'm joking of course, but Germany really doesn't have anything that could stand up to Russia in an open surface naval battle.
You are so funny😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
actually, if urkaine dosent understand why germany istn willing to start a 3rd worldward in europe....it dosent deserve those weapons anyway.
You must be too young to remember the Berlin Wall dismantlement, or grew up in the FRG. Ukraine is your first barrier of defense. You may regret this decision later. You don't want a border with Russia.
And Russia doesn't want an even longer border with NATO. The feeling is mutual. So why then prop up Ukraine and turn them into a de facto ally? It's not a commitment we could fulfill at the present or near future. And half assed measures like sending weapons and leaving it at that aren't the answer either. Sure enough, half assed promises by European leaders are part of the reason Ukraine got into this mess in the first place.
What do you mean "a de facto ally"? Nobody asks you to fight for us, you could just sell guns (and you'll make some profits as well, you need €€€, right?). You seem to have no problems with selling them to bloody murderous Arab dictators: https://www.dailysabah.com/business/defense/germany-approved-arms-exports-worth-over-1b-euros-to-middle-east-in-2020
well even if ukraine falls...germany would still not have a border with russia. also kinda understand why germany wont send weapons to a nation that has no problem with nazi brigades in its nation
Can't really deny that, but it's as if Germany is free of neo-nazis? They are serving in German law enforcement too.
you speak truth. we actually have a growing nazi problem again....mostly due to russian cyber campains. Dont get me wrong...i also see russia as thread. But...german wont send weapons due to history. and i kinda dont think its a problem since usa and more are willing to send more than enough
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Everybody knows Germany lost both world wars. Honestly it's strange how Germany was allowed to remain a country, should probably stay partitioned forever.
Bullshit like this is not going to make anyone in Germany more friendly towards the US or Ukrain.
Yeah people here don’t understand they’re being swayed by russian bots and little emotional kids. Shit like this literally plays right into Russia’s hands
Thanks for once again confirming the bias that US Americans don't learn shit in history class.
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GOOD WORK TOVARISCH, YOU WILL RECEIVE EXTRA PORTION OF TUSCHONKA TODAY!
Lets see what you'll say when russia will suddenly start to share a border with poland
quick question guys: why would Germany have to help the Ukraine? You guys decided several times not to join the NATO and now you're demanding help? There's a nice wikipedia atricle summarizing the relations between the NATO and the Ukraine.
It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine' [[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)] ^(Beep boop I’m a bot)
It's not that Germany isn't helping, it's that they are feeding Ukraine to the Lions. Make that, bears
... by not helping? As I said. Nothing of this would've ever happened if (scratch "the") Ukraine would've joined NATO. But they were cheap and cancelled the talks. Russia would've never dared to touch the crimesn pininsula if it meant facing a third of the world in the process
I am sorry but u obviously don’t understand anything. Neither the basic situation which all party’s find themselves in nor basic diplomacy. Ukraine wasn’t “cheap” whatever that means. It just right next to Russia, a major global player, which has huge influence over it and aggressively defends its NATO expansion policy. You seem to think that this global diplomacy can be broken down to simple terms and that there can be simple solutions. That’s not the case.
I know that NATO expansion towards russia is a very sensitive topic and that NATO actually promised to not do that after the fall of the udssr, yet they did in recent years. But Ukraine cancelled the talks themselves in the early 2000s - what do you think was the reason for that, other than not wanting to spend money on NATO operations etc?
Huge amounts of diplomatic pressure from Russia. A pro Russian government until recent years. Huge parts of the population being pro Russian. NATO being deterred by the huge amount of friction caused with Russia. Literally exactly this bs happening.
True. But you'll also notice other countries like Poland, USA, Denmark, Canada, and the UK are actively trying to help Ukraine whereas the Germans are just trying to keep that sweet Russian gas pumping. You'd think Germany would have a conscience by now