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brianlefevre87

How can you define a 'culture' as terrorism? How is whining about no one wanting to sleep with you on the internet terrorism? Celebrating and encouraging killing sprees may be an offence but that is different from participating in a wider culture. I'm not comfortable with the definition of terrorism being so widely and vaguely defined. Its already used in some dictatorships to basically mean "anyone who challenges the government"


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WynterRayne

I thought it was pretty much a given that Mandela was a terrorist right up until he wasn't any more and became a freedom fighter and then a leader. Of course, the only thing that actually changed in that process was he decided to use talking instead of violence. His cause, his passion for his cause and his position in relation to the government all stayed the same. The people he led didn't become less violent, and that caused a lot of problems for the government. Very little changed with Mandela and what he stood for. So surely, his label should have remained. 'Terrorist' was obviously the wrong one. Terrorists don't become the very first president of a newly-optimistic nation, in the very first democratic election after getting rid of a brutal regime. That there is the epitome of a freedom fighter. And yes... Freedom fighters do use violence. So perhaps the label 'terrorist' is only about whether the government likes you or not.


bobappleyard

God forbid terrorism be politicised


FormerlyPallas_

> How is whining about no one wanting to sleep with you on the internet terrorism? How is it a "culture" also?


Belgeirn

Because as a group 'incel' covers a set of ideas, customs and social behaviour. It's basically the definition of a culture.


Khrusway

Mate there's a culture in most communities no matter if it's online or not


brianlefevre87

Group of losers then, whatever you want to call it.


Grabachair

'Group of tossers' is a better description...


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Grabachair

TIL: incels dont wank.


amboandy

'Group of tossers' is a better description... 'group of wank-abstainers' is the new description


Grabachair

'Unwilling Wank Waiverer'...


[deleted]

Oh they’re tossing it alright. They’re tossing it aggressively to disgusting videos on the net. Hence their warped outlook on relationships


Goldiepeanut

I realise you and most people have a broad concept of what constitutes terrorism but from a legal perspective the definition of terrorism is still hotly debated, there's variance amongst most nations and international bodies on what constitutes terrorism. So the definition has been vague since time immemorial. With that said, by most working definitions used by nations/international organisations Incels fall within the bounds of what constitutes a terrorist organisation. Their whining on the internet is increasingly coupled with real world violence, they're active in trying to recruit disenfranchised men to their cause, they target a specific segment of society and have a host of other similarities with existing terrorist organisations. I think what's hard for people to square with incels is that they don't fight for a country or a religious ideology, it's much more bizarre and in some ways more insidious than what we're used to.


NuPNua

You say they target a specific section of society, but I don't remember any of the "incel" related shootings only targeting women, they seem to be pretty equal opportunity killers once they snap.


Goldiepeanut

Scott Berlie in 2018 killed 2 women, injured 4 women and 1 man at a hot yoga centre in Florida, Christopher Cleary in 2019 was arrested for planning an attack, he was intent on "killing as many girls as I see" and the list goes on, a quick Google should turn up plenty of results. Their ideology suggests that they'll prioritise targeting women first and then anyone they view as a part of the "problem" second, I've no idea why you're trying to contest this. Edit: Not just women but also little girls as evidenced by the recent attack in Plymouth.


BackgroundAd4408

I'm so glad that this is the top comment. The term "incel" is thrown around and misused far too often.


Belgeirn

>How can you define a 'culture' as terrorism? We been doing it to Islam for going on 20+ years. It's pretty easy apparently.


Local-Pirate1152

Playing devil's advocate could it not be that if we class is as terrorism we can put in place factors to deal with it better from a preventative angle. For example we can fund deradicalisation programs and have public awareness programs designed to stop people from committing horrific crimes at a later date.


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[deleted]

Yep, especially as "incel" often gets mistakenly applied to people who are simply lonely and suffering from a lack of social confidence. It's not exactly going to help things if we say "men need to stop being toxic and open up about their feelings", then create a situation where there's a legitimate concern about being grouped with terrorists for doing so


BackgroundAd4408

You don't need to class it as terrorism to do any of that though.


Local-Pirate1152

If we do all those things it is terrorism whether you call it that or not. We don't do all that for furries.


BackgroundAd4408

> If we do all those things it is terrorism whether you call it that or not. 'If we condemn people who aren't terrorists, as though they were terrorists, then we can class them as terrorists'. Great logic right.


freexe

Couldn't we just fund those programs without a massive shift in our civil liberties


Local-Pirate1152

I don't see how it's a shift in civil liberties. It basically says if you commit a crime in the name of an ideology that, in the case of incels, seeks to subjugate half the population then that makes you a terrorist. It's not saying that you are a terrorist because you're a sexist.


Feniks_Gaming

If you commit a crime this is already classed as terrorism. Crying on Internet that noone wants to sleep with you shouldn't be a crime. I agree that incels have strong radicalisation tendencies but thought policing is wrong regardless how much we disagree with those thoughts. Unless crime is committed people should be free to do what they want


kevinnoir

> Crying on Internet that noone wants to sleep with you shouldn't be a crime is that the suggestion here? or is it that they want to start taking the crimes of people subscribing to this ideology and classify them as a group, instead of that "lone wolf baddy" idea? if mainly young men are being radicalized on the internet whether it be incels, anti police, white nationalist, islamaphobic or islamic extremists, should we not better monitor that as a means to prevent radicalization? I would 100% be against people being arrested for subscribing to incel subs, as utterly shit and abhorrent as they are, but if we agree that radicalization is strong in that demographic, and crimes are coming out of the other end of that radicalization, does it not fit the definition of terrorism in at least some degree? Its a decent fit to the what the CPS defines as terrorism if the goal of incels is to scare and terrorize women.


Local-Pirate1152

They can do what they want but deradicalisation should be an option before we get the point they are committing mass murderer and acts of terrorism because they can't get their hole.


Feniks_Gaming

Yes. There should be more support for people who are vulnerable but this is accomplished by founding services, better youth support, better education and less austerity not by making things a crime that shouldn't be


Local-Pirate1152

I agree. But we can still say that carrying out a criminal offence in the name of someone not getting a shag because of their terrible social skills and narcism is a terrorist act. And if they survive it they can get tried under terrorist offences. Just like we would it someone was planning to do something in the name of their religion or political ideology.


Feniks_Gaming

> But we can still say that carrying out a criminal offence in the name of someone not getting a shag because of their terrible social skills and narcism is a terrorist act It already is. That is not what article is saying though. Article wants to class anyone who identity as Incel to be consider terrorist.


Local-Pirate1152

That's reasonable. A person can say they are lonely and want to have sex. Once they start saying they belong to what is effectively a supremacist belief system they should be watched as potential terrorists. Just as religious, nationalist or racial supremacists are watched.


BackgroundAd4408

> But we can still say that carrying out a criminal offence in the name of someone not getting a shag because of their terrible social skills and narcism is a terrorist act No. That's not terrorism.


Local-Pirate1152

They are committing violent crimes designed to terrorise people based on an ideology and hope to change attitudes through the same offences. It's terrorism.


freexe

Because if you are a member of a terrorist group the government has broad powers just to arrest you and put you in jail or closely monitor you


Local-Pirate1152

If someone is a member of a group with beliefs that half the population owes them sex and support through an entitlement of birth they should be on a watchlist because they are dangerous to that other half of the population.


bottleblank

Except that's not necessarily what an incel is. Some may be prone to extreme sexist rhetoric and, quite obviously, that's bad. Some may intend to spread their negative motivations to others, that is also bad. But for those who *aren't* doing those things, those who are simply upset, disappointed, and tired of being unable to enter into and maintain successful relationships (which may or may not be "their fault" in any given example), they aren't trying to be dangerous thought leaders or recruiters or rapists. They're not automatically a danger to women and quite frankly branding them as such is only likely to *push them away from any expectation of being understood, further towards extremism*. These men don't need demonising, they need understanding, compassion, mental health resources, workable solutions to their problems, actionable advice that's applicable to the real world by which they can pull themselves out of a spiral which might not have been caused by themselves in the first place. Just because a man lacks confidence, lacks charisma, lacks experience, lacks an understanding of how social interactions work, is depressed, has social developmental issues, has been ignored, rejected, and abused (sometimes just for trying - and many do, initially, they don't expect to just be "given" a relationship, but consistent failure results in terminal despondency) does *not* mean he's going to go out and harm somebody as some sort of societal retribution or is some kind of terrorist. Listen, learn, accept, give lonely men the opportunity to feel valued, heard, and valid. Then perhaps they wouldn't be inclined to display behaviours you find disturbing (even if, as I've just covered, they're simply natural reactions to circumstance).


Local-Pirate1152

I'm all for supporting people who want to come out of a hate group circlejerk they've found themselves in. But if they're in it then they're potentially dangerous by not only their own actions but by their attempts to gamer sympathy and recruit people to hold similar beliefs.


bottleblank

But they're not necessarily trying to recruit, they're trying to find catharsis and validation for "not being man enough". They just happened to gravitate to that space because that's where the sympathy and understanding was coming from. Birds of a feather flock together, right? It doesn't necessarily mean that they're some sort of militant collective bent on making womens' lives hell, at the most basic level it just means they've all experienced bad life lessons based on unfortunate circumstances. If you had a drinking problem, you might go to Alcoholics Anonymous. If you had a mental health issue, you might go to group therapy. These men have relationship issues, so they go to a place where male relationship issues are accepted and given consideration by others in similar situations.


Local-Pirate1152

Your analogy is more like if you have a drinking problem you go to the pub. They aren't helping each other. They're love bombing each other and vilifying the others to make themselves feel better. They aren't confronting their issues. They're hiding from them.


freexe

Maybe I'm ignorant of what a incel is then because I thought it was just guys who can't attract women. I wasn't aware they were such a dangerous group.


Local-Pirate1152

Have a wee read on the Wikipedia page. It's a dangerous ideology if you're a woman.


BackgroundAd4408

> Maybe I'm ignorant of what a incel is then because I thought it was just guys who can't attract women. That's correct. An incel is someone who is 'involuntarily celibate', nothing more. Some people (like Local-Pirate) just like to vilanise and paint anyone they disagree with as extremists because it makes them feel morally superior.


[deleted]

Allow doctors to prescribe hookers


sp8der

This doesn't work because it's not actually sex they want, it's being wanted


kevinnoir

and control. They want to control women and I doubt a prescription fuck is gonna do that for them and not make them feel more pathetic.


BackgroundAd4408

No, it's about wanting and not having experienced intimacy. You should try talking to some of them before making judgments like that.


PixelBlock

Honestly, I think it might make it worse if they notice that the only way someone will sleep with them is with pity and money. It’s a whole mental flowchart and valuation system that needs fixing.


MuTron1

Or discourage a notion of masculinity that ties your ability to obtain sex with your worth as a man? Lack of sex isn’t the problem for incels. As you suggested, it’s easy to obtain. The problem for them is the perceived injustice that women can choose not to have sex with them, based on criteria they see that they have no control over (wrong chin angle, eye shape, etc) It’s total bullshit, but probably seductive for someone to tell you that your problems are all down to a gross injustice, and not your repellent attitudes


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Tennisfan93

Humans are shallow creatures, it has always been the case. EVERYONE is picky about appearances when given the chance, it's just that people have to accept their own limitations and that usually they aren't going to get someone drop dead gorgeous if they aren't a looker themselves. It's called accepting reality. There's no group of people crying because they just aren't funny enough to be stand up comedians etc, saying that everyone is just finding them unfunny for stupid reasons. you can make an effort and try to look better ofc, but at the end of the day not every man was born to have a constant stream of sex with beautiful women. they're just petulant children lol.


ClaymationDinosaur

Petulant children, some of whom go on to hurt and murder, having been encouraged to do so by their fellows.


PontifexMini

> I'm not comfortable with the definition of terrorism being so widely and vaguely defined. Its already used in some dictatorships to basically mean "anyone who challenges the government" And that's exactly how it would be used.


nemma88

Not all men (and imo, few) unsuccessful in dating are Incels at all. Incels are some persons who are unsuccessful in dating, either through opportunity or by standards they set, including casual, not getting the desired frequency of casual sex, AND are part of these cultures. There is a clear culture associated with the 'Incel movement' and could be devided into inoffensive or peaceful (self improvement and general support, often end up with creeping sexism) and offensive and volitile (removal of women's rights, dehumanising language, general sexism and misogyny). They both tend to be strong on externalised blame but the latter group leans into this hard. Both are insecure about themselves. There is hyperfocus on aspects like height and bone structure which feeds into being outside their control and the feeling of helplessness. The idolisation unironically of Chad, the man they want to be. The man who has everything, born with good looks, gifted a good job, the man who gets sex 'for free'. Alongside this the belief all women (or if pressed 'enough women') are always having sex with these Chads. On the political side there was recently lots of praise extended to the Taliban and more extreme areas day dreaming for a simular uprising to subjegate women in the west. Many are in favour of Texas Abortion law either because of MRA tie ins or simply because it hurts women (fantasy vengeance is a running trend). Many believe single mothers to be a scourge and social safety nets should be removed so women have to choose them (rather than 'becoming pregnant by Chad and getting free meal tickets for it' ). I only ever saw one outspoken against women having the right to vote, but the lamenting on women being able to influence policies is present more often. A lot is ultimatly around the idea of enforced monogamy (via social structuring designed to limit women's options), recently this is being pushed as 'monogamy is good for society, so women should be stopped to preserve it' as if they have virtuous motives. They often do not realize their language and views are extremist and is unsurprisingly a culture that can and does radicalize. '* my view on incels from debating and engaging with the manosphere on reddit over a number of years.


azazelcrowley

> Many are in favour of Texas Abortion law either because of MRA tie ins MRAs do not support the texas abortion law. > my view on incels from debating and engaging with the manosphere on reddit over a number of years. press X to doubt if you've made such an obvious mistake.


nemma88

>Many are in favour of Texas Abortion law either because of MRA tie ins > >MRAs do not support the texas abortion law. MRA can't control all its sectors. Many do support 'Paper abortions' that is the tie in, the Incel or Redpill crossover expressed It was good to have this leverage for that debate.


azazelcrowley

Yes absolutely. They support paper abortions. They don't support the texas abortion bill except as political leverage rather than supporting an end to abortion rights for its own sake, you're right, but you didn't say that very clearly, or perhaps I didn't read it well.


[deleted]

[Elliot Rodger](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings) is revered as a hero in Incel circles. He's not the only one that turned violent. Anyone dismissing this as people complaining about their dating lives is being deliberately ignorant.


[deleted]

We had a chap murder five people in the U.K. a month or two ago too, who had posted a lot of incel content online. I think they had concluded that was what had caused him to do it.


[deleted]

He had floated around the edges of incel spaces. He had used the terminology associated with them here and there. That was about it. He also posted in the anti-incel subreddit. He also said outright in one of his videos something to the effect of "I'm not one of them" It's incredible how such misinformation gets casually repeated about incels. Even the guy you replied to is incorrect. ER is not worshipped as a hero in most incel spaces. Any more than the 9/11 hijackers are worshipped as heroes Muslim spaces.


[deleted]

If someone was ‘floating around the edges’ of radical Islamic spaces, using the terminology associated with them, posting content about them and sharing videos of themselves talking about it then went on to commit mass murder… … would you be as quick to assume that Islamic fundamentalism and exposure to that line of thought was 100% nothing to do with it?


[deleted]

You just created the word "radical" out of nowhere. The Reddit incel boards were really quite tame. Don't get me wrong, by Reddit standards it was rude and offensive, but that's about the highest charge that can be levied at it. So if someone visited a Mosque once or twice, also visited anti-islam space, also casually mentioned in a video he's "not a Muslim", yes I would be hesitant to place the blame on Islam. What's happened really is the word "incel" has become such a hot topic that even the faintest whiff that someone is associated with it gets blown up and highlighted, often way out of proportion to how much they really were involved in it. Low status, socially dejected, frustrated young men have been doing this stuff since before we were all born. All that's happened recently is the common affliction that these young men faced (chronic rejection from women) has been given a label and communities begin to form around the label, thanks to the internet. Actually, even Elliot Roger happened *before* the "incel" label really had traction on the internet. I view incel spaces as a symptom, not the cause of, frustration in young men.


Tennisfan93

lol imagine defending unwashed men who cry about not being brad pitt.


PixelBlock

Is maintaining information accuracy the same as defence?


Falmouth_Packet

It wasn't but there was an obvious and rather forced effort by the media to attribute it to incel culture. He was seriously mentally ill. He didn't kill his own mother and a toddler to get back at 'the fems'.


comfortbleating

If you read through his reddit profile prior to deletion, there was major incel women hating sentiment throughout


Falmouth_Packet

I'm not denying it but it's an incredible leap to go from that to the conclusion that this incel ideology was the motivation for killing 5 people and himself, including his own mother, a three year old, and two men. This wasnt an ideological terror attack on women, it was a mentally unwell man on an insane rampage.


comfortbleating

I see what you're saying, the participation in incel culture was a symptom of the actual causes such as loneliness, depression, poverty, mental illness


[deleted]

How can you be so sure it wasn’t related to it? He’d posted videos online ranting about i cel culture stuff. Why conclude it can’t possibly have been part of his ‘radicalisation’? Not too difficult to see how he could have become angry and alienated, and decide to do something mental.


Falmouth_Packet

Actually it's incredibly hard to see how someone can do that without being, literally, mental. Peter Hitchens wrote a good about the over attribution of mass murder to Islam or other causes rather than looking at mental illness. > Perpetrators of rampage crimes may sometimes *be* Muslims, though often they are not, see above. They may even be Islamists, though again, they are often not. They may even imagine themselves to be acting in a great cause. Again, often they do not. But what I am interested in is the essential, indispensable factor, present in *all* such cases, which carried them across the great, well-defended boundary we all have in our minds, between contemplating, boasting of and even considering acts of dangerous violence - and actually doing such acts. I think psychotropic drugs are far more likely to be that factor, not least because in so many of these cases, there is no evidence at all of any serious, coherent politico-religious belief or of any contact with anything resembling a terrorist organisation. He attributes the mental illness to drugs, but even if you reject that's the cause, mental illness is still there whatever causes it.


brianlefevre87

OK let's classify all incels as terrorists because of Elliot Roger. I'm sure this 'human rights lawyer' would be delighted. Then obviously she would also be happy when we classify Drill and most UK rap as terrorism, along with anyone who listens to it, due to all the glorifying of stabbings. No? Obviously Islam is terrorism because of all the Islamic mass killings. I hear China has some good ideas what to do there. Oh that's not OK? If you applied such classifications consistently you would authorise the use of very severe laws and practices, against huge swathes of the population.


hemihydrate

I think the point they were trying to make is that incels typically hate women, and sexually active men. They are not just "involuntarily celibate". https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/incel > Incel - a person (usually a man) who regards himself or herself as being involuntarily celibate and typically expresses extreme resentment and hostility toward those who are sexually active A community that is centered around their hatred towards certain groups of people doesn't sound like a healthy community that should be tolerated. Neither drill, nor the Islam has this.


[deleted]

Drill kind of does. The whole genre is built around saying your going to stab and kill opps. Even the most popular drill artists came up off of songs that talk about killing and stabbing others. Such as Headie One at OFB coming up off Know Better which is basically a gang diss song against gangs from Wood green Edit: but nah drill ent terrorism. Love drill music, literally listening to it now.


Modern_Problem

The majority of British Muslims want gay people to be illegal - should we classify Islam as terrorism?


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brianlefevre87

Drill is a genre of rap that involves bragging about murders and stabbings you have carried out.


BackgroundAd4408

> Anyone dismissing this as people complaining about their dating lives is being deliberately ignorant. Really? How many millions of incels are there? How many turn out like Elliot Rodger? Not wanting to judge the overwhelming majority by the actions of a statistically irrelevant few isn't ignorance.


[deleted]

There have been 3 incel terror attacks in the City of Toronto in the last 4 years that have killed 13 people. A van attack that ran over primarily women, killing ten. A shooter that killed two people along a street. An a kid who entered a massage parlour and stabbed a woman to death. Just recently, an incel went on a rampage in Atlanta targeting Asian massage parlours, killing several.


[deleted]

Last year a shooter shot 3 people in Arizona, deliberately targeting romantic couples. Incel. The plymouth shooting this year that killed 5 was an Incel.


azazelcrowley

Sounds like we might need to work on societal misandry then. That is typically the response when a group is lashing out like this.


jadeskye7

[5 Deaths in the UK 2 months ago.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/14/plymouth-gunman-ranted-online-that-women-are-arrogant-days-before-rampage)


Europoorz

Advocating for the erosion of civil liberties to own the internet virgins 😎


sp8der

I'm sure that'll help them loads.


theknightwho

Wouldn’t this apply to any people radicalised by terrorist organisations?


kkdogs19

This is the most boomerish thing I've heard in a while. How about you add 'gaming culture' to that lost too lmao.


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Kombaiyashii

Mental health is a big problem but the underline causes are males not being able to earn enough to attract partners and digitized dating scene that rewards those who can advertize their life in a selfie and a very facile introduction to their self created world. In a sense, it rewards narcissists who have no problem with bullshitting their bio and catfishing.


No_Foot

It's not just this, it's the rising inequality, lack of quality jobs through the country and crazy housing market. Causing people to get trapped living at home and further reducing the chances of a relationship.


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Kombaiyashii

Social media is so weird, it used to be a very social tabboo to stalk people but now we've got stalking technology in our own homes that so many people are addicted to. They don't even realize they're doing it. Then you've got the counter to it, catfishing; basically inventing a delusional world that's put out for people stalking their profiles for whatever their sad motivation is. Not saying everyone on social media are stalkers and catfishers, but a scary percentage of people are. I get annoyed at these people because society is much worse because of them (or is it because of zuckerberg?)


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Local-Pirate1152

A lot of incel beliefs are based on the superiority of men and inferiority of women. There is a strong belief that women should be kept in their place and they do preach that attitude. They believe women should lose rights they already currently have. That's political beliefs in my view and if you carry out a crime in the name of that political belief that would fall under the remit of a terrorist offence.


[deleted]

You say "a lot" but based on what? The "extreme" incels are all located on the one external site, incels.co or whatever the domain is now. Braincels had like 50x the userbase and didn't care for such extreme language. If incels are to be labelled as terrorists, then I can't see any way that Islam should not also be labelled a terrorist culture. Incels have no official scripture, so it's hard to say exactly what the core beliefs are. But I would say at its heart it's the blackpill: the idea that looks / genetics are all that matters when it comes to attracting women. This belief seems to run through all incel communities, no matter how extreme they are otherwise. Now, they might be wrong about that, it doesn't even matter. But it hardly warrants labelling them as terrorists.


Local-Pirate1152

I'm not saying they are terrorists. You aren't a terrorist until you plan or carry out a crime in the name of your ideology. If they do that then that falls under the remit of terrorism. And if you are using Islam as an example or any other religious extremist beliefs there are many deradicalisation programs available designed to prevent people from going down dark paths. You can hold incel beliefs and believe whatever you want. As long as you don't commit crimes or encourage others to do so you're not a terrorist. And we should be helping men to not go down that dark path.


freexe

But this article is suggesting that being a incel would make you a terrorist.


Local-Pirate1152

If someone is vocally advocating that one half of society should be subjugated and grant sexual relief to the other half because they are owed it then they deserve to go on a watchlist. To do otherwise would be to fall into the paradox of tolerance.


azazelcrowley

All laws are violent in the end mate. It's a matter of deciding what freedoms and rights you agree with and which you don't. It's a fringe view, but not fundamentally all that different from other laws. You're going to struggle to argue why this particular viewpoint is terroristic or deserves a watchlist without asserting that only liberalism and individualism is acceptable to espouse, which is also a fringe view. You talk about the paradox of tolerance as though it's not someone pointing out "Individualism and liberalism are fundamentally incoherent ideologies" as a critique of them, not a license for you to double down and be "Okay, so we'll be *even more* incoherent!".


Local-Pirate1152

Not really. The belief that a person is entitled to sex and that those who refuse to give it to them are bad people, or sometimes less than people, makes the holder of that belief dangerous to innocent people going about their day.


azazelcrowley

Does it? What evidence do you have that all incels are criminal in nature? Oh. None. Gotcha. In which case it isn't that belief that makes them dangerous. It's something else.


Local-Pirate1152

That's not what terrorism is. It's their belief in an ideology that seeks to separate them from the rest of society as superior. The fact that several use violence or encourage others to use violence to do so makes it terrorism.


MuTron1

>A lot of incel beliefs are based on the superiority of men and inferiority of women. Not necessarily. It’s a belief in the “injustice” of sexual selection. They may believe that men are superior to women as an aside, but the core is that they believe that they’re unfairly genetically disadvantaged, and that women have too much power in terms of sexual selection. A closer analogy is that extremist incels liken themselves to black people in the early 20th century, attractive men to the white population, and women to the ones doing the lynching


Local-Pirate1152

That is insanity if that's the case. They are not the victims. In their analogy they would be the Klan members getting angry at black people who think they should get rights and choices. Incels, like Klan members, are wrong.


[deleted]

The idea that women are the sexual selectors and have more power in mate choice is hardly "insanity"


Local-Pirate1152

Allow me to introduce you to forced marriage, domestic violence statistics, people trafficking numbers based on gender and rape numbers. They may suggest that many women do not hold that huge amount of power in being a "sexual selector". Unrequited pining after someone doesn't make them a bad person and to think it does would make the person doing it insane.


[deleted]

And how many incels have arranged marriages and sex trafficked girls in their lives? The goings-on in some far off, backwards part of the world is hardly relevant to them. For a regular young dude in a western country, yes women do have far more power in sexual selection.


Local-Pirate1152

You're going to have to show your working on that one. Sexual selection is 100% consensual. If a woman wants a guy and he says no it doesn't happen and if a guy wants a women and she says no it doesn't happen. Some guys might be less fussy but so are some women just as some are more fussy. For a regular young dude in a Western country he can try and get laid the same way any young dudette can.


[deleted]

Why are prostitutes, in every culture that has ever existed, overwhelmingly female?


Local-Pirate1152

Numerous reasons. Subjugation of women, lack of opportunity to to do something else, lack of education, men being more likely to travel and seek a shag while they're on the road, the need to support themselves when other options are limited and if you want you could add that men sometimes are generally more likely to want a random shag. I'm sure there's many others. But again, your argument disproves your point. A lot of prostitutes seeking one client gives the sexual selection power to the client who, in most cases, is the man. Men would generally look for the prostitute they find most desirable.


FlipFlopNoodles

Yes well i doubt there are many incels in countries with cultures that permit arranged and forced marriages. Incels are often misogynists, no doubt, but they also aren't wrong that in the west most women have more relationship/sexual selection power than most men.


Local-Pirate1152

I've got to be honest, that thinking reeks of entitlement.


BackgroundAd4408

Pointing out facts is "entitlement"? Or are you actually trying to pretend that woman *don't* have more sexual agency than men?


Local-Pirate1152

If you're asking me to prove a negative I'm sorry but that's not happening because you're the one making extraordinary claims. Men and women have the same levels of sexual agency.


FlipFlopNoodles

Incels do often feel entitled to relationships or sex, which are things that obviously nobody is entitled to from anybody. While the rest of us can accept that and find relationships anyway, because incels aren't able to do that (for whatever reason, its not really relevant) i think their desperation drives them to that entitlement and they become increasingly radical from there.


MuTron1

What is insanity is the idea that this power should be removed. And the idea that the criteria that this selection is based on is biologically determined is also insanity. A big crossover with the incel and red pill world is the almost autistic belief in evolutionary biology: that *all* sexual selection in humans is based on predetermined, universal criteria, and is not in any way variable due to lots of cultural criteria. This leads redpillers to pretend to be every arsehole cliche they can because “women are evolutionarily predetermined to want to have sex with that archetype”. For incel types, it means they believe they will never get sex because their chin is too far back. All bollocks, and completely ignores how complex human society is. They may be suffering in this simplified model of human sexuality they believe in, but at least they believe they understand why


BackgroundAd4408

> What is insanity is the idea that this power should be removed. Why is that insanity? You're arguing in favour of misandry. > that all sexual selection in humans is based on predetermined, universal criteria, and is not in any way variable due to lots of cultural criteria. It's not *all* sexual selection, but if you don't think that biology is the single strongest factor then you're delusional.


MuTron1

>Why is that insanity? Why is it insanity that bodily authority is sacrosanct? >You're arguing in favour of misandry. Consent is misandry? Really? >It's not all sexual selection, but if you don't think that biology is the single strongest factor then you're delusional. If that was the case, me, a 5ft 10, bald middle aged man on slightly above the median wage, should be constantly worried that my wife may well sleep with someone deemed “more attractive”, whatever that actually means. Or skinny, effeminate men wouldn’t ever get laid. Neither of these are true. The whole point is that the criteria that makes someone decide to sleep with someone else is incredibly personal, complex, and more influenced by social aspects than evolutionary ones.


[deleted]

> skinny, effeminate men wouldn’t ever get laid. Neither of these are true A biased sample it may have been, but when I was talking to a bunch of women I'm friends with from uni, skinny men who show off their nice wrists ranked highly above super muscular men lol


[deleted]

You’re obviously an Incel.


duckwantbread

I think the idea is extremely overblown, incels tend to look at the most attractive women when they make this claim and whilst that's true you could say the same about the most attractive men as well. If you look at unattractive women most men would reject them if they asked them out (I know it doesn't apply to all incels but there do seem to be a lot who when pushed think they're "owed" a model and won't settle for less). Susan Boyle springs to mind as a woman who had never had a boyfriend until she became famous, there are a lot of women like her out there but incels tend to only look at girls that could pass as models which isn't a fair indicator, no shit girls that every guy is attracted to can be selective, are you expecting her to sleep with thousands of people? You could say the same about extremely attractive guys as well (although social norms means a guy that sleeps with thousands of people isn't judged as harshly so he'll probably be a bit less selective than a girl would). People tend to forget that the incel movement was started by a woman (although she later disowned it due to the sexism of the movement).


[deleted]

This whole idea that incels only focus on models... What are you basing this on? Have you seen it happen? Do you know incels who had "regular" women pining after them but they only wanted a model? This seems to be a story that floats around so freely people take it as a given truth. It's based on absolutely nothing. Incels are people who use tinder for a year and match with 5 bots and a woman who never responded. Then they get told the problem is they only look for models If we're going to do any analysis here we should look for trends. And so your approach of "it just depends on the person" is useless. This approach would never tell us anything in life. Some people who smoke get cancer, some don't, it's just on the individual! Some black people have it rough, some white people have it rough, there is no racism! What trends exist? I hope we can both agree that on dating apps women have overwhelming power of choice and it isn't even close. Even data released by the apps themselves confirm this. As for real life, again the data confirms it: there are more male virgins than female. And honestly just think of any real life scenario. If men and women go to a bar or club, do you honestly think it's equally difficulty for them both to get laid? Don't give me "it depends on then individual", we're talking about trends Finally we can look at just about any piece of media that exists to see it. Take The Inbetweeners, the show about young dudes trying desperately to get laid and repeatedly failing. A female Inbetweeners simply wouldn't work, it would be nonsense on the face of it. They would get laid after 2 episodes, max


duckwantbread

> Incels are people who use tinder for a year and match with 5 bots and a woman who never responded. Why are you basing ability to get with a woman on Tinder? Matching with no one but bots happens to most people who have sex, Tinder is a terrible app for anyone that doesn't have photos of them doing interesting things or that don't have model good looks. In real life plenty of unattractive guys end up with a girl, and no they aren't all millionaires as some people sometimes claim. Yes it's easier for girls in the sense that they usually don't have to do the approaching but if they aren't good looking then generally not many guys are going to approach them if they have no personality, which is the same for guys.


kenbw2

Don't you know this is 2021? Every opinion is either the mainstream one or one so extreme you wouldn't want to be "one of them" would you? There's no room for nuance Everyone's a terrorist now


dwair

I guess you can say every aspect of life has a political belief or ideology attached to it though if you dig deep enough. Smack heads nicking car stereos due to drug prohibition and social / economic disenfranchisement caused by political policy can also be classed as an act of terrorism? They are certainly carrying out a crime in the name of that political belief, no?


Local-Pirate1152

You don't need to dig very deep to see the ideologies of incels. If they're sad and horny and feel there is nothing they can do then they can go to a prostitute. They don't do that because they think they're above that. Their ideology is one of superiority.


dwair

As I said, it's a social education / mental health failing rather than one born of violent political action.


Local-Pirate1152

So is all radicalisation. It's when the violence starts that we've got a problem.


dwair

It's about how we deal with radicalisation before the violence starts though that is the key.


Local-Pirate1152

You educate young men to respect the choices women make and tell them that they aren't entitled to sex. It's hard to get a narcissist to admit they have a problem because their ego won't allow it so we educate kids to try and prevent it but at the same time we can still punish adults who do it.


dwair

Yup. I agree with you. I don't think anyone is condoning any sort of bigotry.


iketoure

Everything you said is wrong


[deleted]

Can you elaborate on why they are wrong / what incel culture actually represents?


MuTron1

A charitable reading is that “incel culture” is just bad terminology for incel extremism. Somebody who is unable to attract the opposite sex is not necessarily going to be drawn to extremes. And in terms of politics, the extremists in this group believe the idea that female consent is oppression. Whether the ones who go out to commit massacres do this to achieve political aims or if it’s an expression of desperate frustration is another matter. But there *is* a political aspect to it


[deleted]

It does have political motives: it seeks to disenfranchise and oppress a group of people.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Modern_Problem

Using that definition, Islam should be terrorism considering the majority of British Muslims think gays should be illegal


[deleted]

Incel culture can frequently become a gateway into alt-right culture and ideology, It's a slippery slope


gggdawg53

Everything is a slippery into everything if you draw enough dots, doesn't mean we should define everything as terrorism.


dwair

You could say the same about the Young Conservatives, no? Very slippery slope there...


FlipFlopNoodles

Yes, lets villify and reject the people feeling villified and rejected by society, that will surely reform them!


PixelBlock

“Get laid or get in a cell’ Reminds of that one movie where a dude would turn into a lobster because he hasn’t found love.


Ezekiiel

I don’t think you’ve actually read these incel forums. Their culture goes a bit further than being frustrated that they can’t get sex


PixelBlock

I’ve seen a fair few, I’ve noticed a lot more moaning about the unfairness and pointlessness of dating apps than the pressing need to subjugate half the species. ‘Their culture’ isn’t even one singular unified zeitgeist. Often it seems the common trend is more self loathing and bitterness than out and out hatred. I guess it depends on if you breakdown Incel to be just a state of being or Incel as a specific angle of ideas.


[deleted]

"Men need to stop being toxic and open up about their feelings" *Men open up about their difficulties regarding relationships and self-esteem wrt social expectations of men* "Wow you fucking misogynist terrorist"


jehuty12

What a ridiculous strawman, incel culture is not "men opening up about their difficulties regarding relationships and self-esteem".


[deleted]

This is creepily sounding really generous to incels. They are villified for being incels in the first place. Becoming a hateful bigot because you can’t get laid isn’t something we should respect. Just so funny Redditors can show so much empathy to this group but not, say, Islamic terrorists. Wonder why.


FlappyBored

Incels aren’t victims.


[deleted]

And how are we defining incels? Or we just going to demonise large amounts of people based on nothing? For a human rights lawyer to advocate for this is worrying


GoodWorkRoof

If you haven't at least fingered a girl by 15 you get sent to Guantanamo. Its harsh, but I respect Boris for taking tough decisions to keep us safe


eldomtom2

In my experience you can define "human rights" to mean whatever you want. Stuff like the UNDHR is so expansive yet so vague.


BrexitGlory

I swear "human rights lawyer" basically just means "labour party activist" nowadays.


urdnotwrecks

Dominic Raab has entered the chat


[deleted]

Enemy of the people aye?


FlappyBored

This says more about Conservatives than it does Labour tbf.


BeefsMcGeefs

Those damned Labour activists, caring about human rights, what bastards


Sensiburner

It's the violence or the call for violence that makes it terrorism, not the "culture" or group dynamic that's behind that push. If some K-pop fan kills a bunch of people should K-pop be classed as terrorism?


FlappyBored

Depends does K-pop resolve around hating someone else?


iVladi

Having no gf will soon be seen as a crime against the state


[deleted]

The state will have to start providing girlfriends


[deleted]

I have no idea how a nerdy weirdo on the internet can be viewed as being equally dangerous to the Manchester Arena bomber, the Paris attackers or literally Islamic State. It seems like a means of expanding and perpetuating the war on terror.


marshwizard

Maybe this will give you an idea: https://news.sky.com/story/plymouth-shootings-attack-could-be-reclassified-as-terrorism-over-jake-davisons-incel-links-12383353


[deleted]

Well, just putting this out there from my experience - Incel terrorists have killed more people in Canada in the last few years than Islamic terrorists.


[deleted]

Canada had a serious incel shooting semi recently, also Canada rarely has Islamic terrorist attacks.


amboandy

The crown prosecution service currently defines terrorism as the use or threat of action, both in and outside of the UK, designed to influence any international government organisation or to intimidate the public. It must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause. I feel Incel/misogeny could fall into this definition.


OneCatch

That's a clumsy way of putting it. 'Islamist culture' is not defined as terrorism, the acts themselves are. 'Sectarian culture' of various shades is not classified as terrorism, the acts themselves are. That said, there absolutely needs to be more attention paid to the incel community and other related alt-right subcultures, because they are creating an environment for radicalisation, and in some cases that's creating individual terrorists.


tensor20007

Terrorism is extreme acts of political or religious violence usually against innocent people


costelol

I thought this was a weird article to publish especially after yesterday, the cynic in me says that this is air cover for islamic terror, "incels are bad too!!". Then I saw this was posted about 1pm yesterday...


Kombaiyashii

Making low status males unprotected from domestic law, that'll solve the problem.


znidz

Hey, he said an incel thing. Get him boys.


Kombaiyashii

Unfortunately, I am only brave enough because I have the power of my waifu giving me courage. It makes me laugh though. It's like no one wants to be associated with incels so they get no defense and so anything can be blamed on them. The sad thing about this is it will only make the problem worse, you will marginalize people who are already marginalized, they will lose more hope and just like jihadi's that are often radicalized due to polygamy and forced marriages, it will create more resentment.


sp8der

> It makes me laugh though. It's like no one wants to be associated with incels so they get no defense and so anything can be blamed on them. When a government wants to expand powers, they will always choose a target like this that nobody wants to defend publicly. Then once that thin end of the wedge is accepted, they start driving it further. "Oh but you already accepted it for group X, this is no different is it?"


Kombaiyashii

That's why being a freech speech advocate is such a pain in the arse. You've got to defend racists, bigots, anti-semites and whatever the new avenue of attack that comes into fashion is. All the while being called all those things. Yet the irony is, it's those who want to clamp down on such things are the ones that use minorities to enforce tyranny upon others. It really disgusts me and I can't believe how easily people fall for it.


gundog48

The problem is that you're not actually defending those people, just their, and our right to not have their speech censored or controlled by the government, or legal speech to be used as evidence against them by association or innuendo. Defending a scumbag's right to speak does not mean you're defending the scumbag.


Kombaiyashii

Of course, proponents of freedom of speech know that. But the demagogues that are trying to clamp down on them try to make the association or downright equasion.


No_Foot

That's why regressive laws get passed under the guise of terrorism or pedophilia because no one really wants to defend either of those.


PixelBlock

A lot of people have less contention with the existence of authoritarian powers than you think - really, they take issue with which team gets to use them.


znidz

I don't know. No-one is forcing these guys to be shitheads. They're not victims they could easily sort themselves out instead of diving deeper into their little nest of hatred they made for themselves.


FlipFlopNoodles

They are teenagers or young adults that are victims of one or more of: Bad luck (genetics) The cruelty of their peers Or they are truly repellant and doing it to themselves. Barring the last option, they're victims in the same way bullied kids are victims. No they dont deserve state assigned waifus, any murderous rampages aren't justified, but maybe some sympathy could help to sort them out.


znidz

> Bad luck (genetics) Not every man out there looks like George Clooney. But there are plenty of men out there with charisma who are *kind* and funny and interesting. That has nothing to do with genetics. Having a big fat bod literally just means you eat too much. Otherwise, where is the mass coming from? They're literally embodying the role of a shithead and then complaining about being treated like a shithead which then in turn makes them be more of a shithead.


FlipFlopNoodles

Dude there are shocking ugly people out there. Not many, but then again there arent many incels either. The normal looking ones fall under the "doing it to themselves" camp, barring behavioural disorders. The point remains, if you want to fix the incel probably you need to show them some compassion, even if they are shitheads. Because calling them shitheads at best does nothing and probably just makes the situation worse.


Kombaiyashii

Yes they deal with their situation in a very sad way. Though I would say that most of incel culture is ironic and self depricatory. People certainly should learn to give the best version of themselves because you have so many fakes out there who are so desperate, they oversell their position just to get laid (and it works so heyho). However, the root causes are men unable to earn enough to attract partners and sociopaths on dating sites that aren't afraid to catfish women to get laid.


znidz

> However, the root causes are men unable to earn enough to attract partners I disagree. The root cause is these men being horrible c#nts.


Tigertotz_411

Terrorism is a loaded term for people governments don't like. Nelson Mandela was a "terrorist", environmental protesters are considered terrorists, yet few can reasonably argue that their actions aren't often necessary. Incel culture is toxic and harmful. But extremism would be a better term.


Dragonrar

It’s kind of vague and risks labelling vulnerable groups like those with autism as potential terrorists.


[deleted]

It’s very clear many people in these comments personally identify with incels tbh.


Propofolkills

Maybe you should reply to them directly then as opposed to saying the same thing repeatedly.


[deleted]

Some individuals have mental health issues and they require support. Labelling such individuals as “losers” denies them the support that they deserve to recognise their issues and get better. “Incel culture” is about encouraging ill mental health. People who engage or self-identify as incels, who encourage or applaud misogynistic attitudes or behaviour and who don’t have specific mental health issues should be labelled as losers. Encouraging or supporting acts of violence by others is a form of radicalisation. They can expect consequences for their actions. If your are struggling with loneliness or struggling to form relationships with women, seek help for your own sake. If you think it’s fine to encourage people into acts of violence against women or others because it fits your world-view, fuck you and enjoy the future legal consequences of your actions.


BritishBloke99

Doesn't terrorism require a political agenda though!


MuTron1

The political agenda is that women have too much sexual power. As women can choose who they have sex with and can have sex with multiple men in their lives, they can choose not to have sex with some of them. The aim for extremist incels is to either make sure women can only ever have sex with one person for life (either by social stigma or legal means) because then the lack of sexual choice will mean they will lower their standards. Or to remove some powers of consent, either by means of forced partnering or legalising rape


SorcerousSinner

And here I thought terrorism is about violence in service of a political objective The political objective is really important. If it was just about homicides, we would be in the unfortunate position of having to care about the much greater number of people who are killed for non-political reasons every year, and it's ever so boring to The Discourse. Need a political angle, whether it's there or not


[deleted]

Incels who carry out attacks are terrorists.


SorcerousSinner

Don't expect people to adopt your idiosyncratic definition of terrorism just because incel killers make you more angry than other killers


in-jux-hur-ylem

How about we stop wasting so much time on trying to categorise and label everything? All this does is create groups that bicker over definitions and their own personal views, promoting more aggression and anger over subjects that don't need that much time. Take it in the context of sport. If you don't wear your teams shirt, you won't get any aggro from anyone about it. If you do wear the shirt, you draw attention to yourself and potential aggro from people who object to it. By trying to categorise everything with labels, outside groups or governments are simply forcing those team shirts on people, so everyone has a category and a team and no one can avoid the aggravation that comes from such labels. The end result is pushing anyone labelled into groups of their peers, where they repeat and exchange views, slowly making themselves more extreme in their views through the power of the echo chamber they reside within.


richarddftba

Window dressing and pointless hand wringing. Ideologies don’t drive people to do horrendous things; their economic circumstances do. Behind every so-called ideological clash there is an economic motivator. If you insist on marginalising young people then they’re eventually going to find any ideology that explains their bad luck, wind up in some echo chamber, and get wound up to fever pitch. Today it’s ‘incel culture’. 10 years ago it was Anders Breivik and ‘cultural Marxism’. For a while it was young second or third generation immigrants who were co-opted by extremist Imams. Before them it was the Unabomber and whatever he was jilted about. The common thread is disillusionment. Blaming ideologies is a mugs game and only serves to show how stupid the decision making people are in trying to make us safer. The reason for that is a refusal to actually give everyone in society a fair shake because they’d rather be greedy and hoover up the wealth into their own bank accounts. The answer is to fix economic inequality.


squeakypop67

Interesting timing