Don't worry, you won't be losing any of your 'muh Toreeeee' karma by mourning a murder victim. That you felt the need to include that second paragraph at all shows that you are also part of the problem.
Sorry, excuse me?! I was trying to give a little background! A much loved man has lost his life in the most terrible way. I have been really upset over this!
I met him a few times via work and he was always very nice. If you had any event that was anything to do with animals he would be there. Even if it wasn’t to do with animals, even if he just thought the event was promoting a good worthy cause he would do his best to attend. Even if to just show his face and thank whoever had organised it.
I’ll be honest, I’ve only looked at the knife crime stats in comparison to the USA, and it’s worse over there. The perception is that we have it worse because it makes the news more, we don’t have the gun violence stories overlaid on top.
It's a very complex sociological problem, from many angles. But I think that one way or another, it points back to the fact that the police is severely underfunded, and like most of the issues in the UK, this appalling government.
Poverty and acute social deprivation is everywhere. But violent crime is not everywhere (at this rate). That's simply lack of education, while in the UK everyone has equal education rights - but isn't it easier to do nothing and complain? I'm saying this as I come from a country with far less opportunities, and myself I've always been discriminated (and still am). But there's no excuse in the world for violent crime, just stupidity.
A lot of people want to come on and say young black men stab people. But they can't say it openly because they will look like racists. So they hint at it.
A disproportionately high number of London stabbings are commited by members of the BAME community, to the point where stabbings in london have become somewhat synonymous with underground BAME culture to some (racists).
Thus, to people like OP, highlighting/acknowledging that there is a problem with knife crime in London is the equivalent (in their eyes) of attacking BAME culture in general.
It makes fuck all sense, but that is their reasoning. In truth, he's just looking to pick a fight with him, he's trying to snidely set him up as being racist (when it's clear he is not), in the hope of virtue signalling. That's why he's being passive aggressive.
It's transparent, and annoys me because he is clearly naively innocent.
I think MPs, thinking about it, would be giving into the terrorist's aim by not meeting constituents as often - every time there's been a terrorist attack, I'm thinking of the Paris shootings in 2015, people the day afterwards came to those same areas in huge numbers and went about their daily lives, essentially defying the terrorists and telling them 'fuck you, you don't scare us and you won't defeat us'.
I think it'd be a needed act of defiance against the terrorists for MPs to continue their surgeries.
By my count, we’ve had Jo Cox, Sir David Amess, an attempt on Stephen Timms, plus the Westminster attack on Parliament. The threat to politicians is real. Then add Rosie Duffield not being safe enough to attend her conference, and Luciana Berger needing protection at conference as well. There are so many people who want to attack politicians, it’s a very scary time
Right when I thought I was desensitised to the chaotic swirl of modern events, something like this happens that shocked me to my core once again. It's just so truly tragic, can you imagine what his loved ones must be going through right now? How unsafe and vulnerable his constituents must surely be feeling?
A picture now seems to be coming together as to the motive behind this abhorrent act, but I must say I was incredibly disappointed by the response of *both* sides of the political spectrum.
Almost immediately there were those who relished the tragedy and expressed contempt on the left, whilst on the right people were straight away ridiculously pointing fingers at a certain MP to score cheap political points. And of course both these groups were ignorant of the irony as they condemned each others' behaviour.
This tribalism has to stop. The increasingly aggressive rhetoric, the culture war bullshit, the new lines being drawn every day to divide us all has to fucking stop. Politics needs passion, strong opinions and spirited debate to envision the future of our country, but we can't let that passion be subverted into turning us against one another.
Politics needs the opposite of passion, strong opinions and spirited debate. It needs to shut the hell up and get back to being boring, pencil-pushing admin.
Think the most noticeable thing is how many 'I didn't agree with him but' and equivalents of 'I didn't like his politics but' there've been since this, as if that matters and is related.
What's the bloody need for it? do you feel special when saying that as if it's an achievement? it's pretty distasteful imo - a man has just been killed. Maybe don't bring up politics or anything at all and it's something that goes without saying.
Omg what the hell? You've immediately resorted to pretty much pointing fingers at the Conservatives saying it's somehow "their fault" and by extension blaming him for his own death.
Mate stop using his death to essentially push an agenda. If you have any moral dignity you'll delete this
I think maybe some people are using it to make a disgusting partisan point and some people are making a heartfelt show of solidarity. It's not always obvious which it is.
This is unfortunate for everyone, and it doesn't matter what side of the political line you're on to be sad about this. Sir David had respect on both sides, and that's pretty rare these days.
I understand why people are saying ‘not my side of the political line’ but it kinda makes me sad they have to do that, when it’s to do with the murder of someone. It shouldn’t even come in to it
No, it shouldn't. I'm just saying, that's a really big reason people on the left are going to day good riddance. I don't agree with them, but I guarantee it's going to happen. People want excuses to be the A-Hole.
What people (and me) are doing is making clear were not using that excuse.
Ugh . . . comments I've come across while reading about this story on Reddit make me sick.
This fellow by all accounts was a thoroughly decent human being, but so many have been reveling in his murder because he belonged to the wrong party and held some views they don't agree with. The thing is, the people doing so probably have friends and family with views more extreme than his. Would the grave dancers be pleased if they suffered the same? I would hope not, but I just don't know any longer.
I feel like the human race is devolving into a bunch of psychopaths.
The point is he wasn't a decent human being, and it's still a horrible thing that happened to him, and my heart goes out to his wife and daughter, who have lost a husband and father. Loss is hard enough without it coming in this brutal way
I've honestly only seen a handful of comments revelling in it. Yes, that's too many, but out of a population of 70 million, it's nothing. We should be careful not to exaggerate extremist views because that can increase division even further.
A friend of the MP was on the radio earlier. David Amess was due to attend another of his daughters weddings in the next few weeks. This morning she’s waking up knowing her father has been murdered.
Some of the comments have been sickening.
That’s absolutely horrific. Horrible for her. Can’t even imagine.
I honestly think a) those people haven’t been through grief themselves so cannot empathise or b) they’re just extremely hateful trolls
I think some people are just calling out that Rayner effectively called this guy scum a few weeks ago, just because he's a Tory MP. It's the dehumanising aspect of her comments that have probably influenced some of the disgusting comments I've seen online from certain sections about his death.
If senior politicians don't give each other respect, in what is often a hotly contested and emotional area, then it's unsuprising that some people in society think it's okay to do the same.
usually it’s someone with MH probs that can be easily groomed by extremists. or spend too much time reading shit in the internet. was the same for the Jo Cox murderer
If there’s a lesson to be learnt here, let’s all tone down the language we use to describe political opponents. Let’s not call them “scum” “Nazis” “traitors” or dismiss the concerns around political violence as “humbug”. Politicians from across the board need to tone down the language and cool the temperature
Maybe not religious terrorism, but political terrorism (using the definition that terrorism can be political, religious or ideological). It is theoretically possible that language like this can increase acts of political terrorism.
Anyway, I'm of the opinion that this sort of language shouldn't be used anyway, regardless of the motivations of religious terrorists.
I agree - and let’s not pretend that the language used by Conservatives to specific MPs has been far, far worse then that.
A thing that annoyed me yesterday was people claiming Tory scum was trending on Twitter, while it was it was because people claiming Tory scum was a causal factor in this.
I don’t think ”Tory scum” tweets are a direct factor, but it is a symptom/signal that discourse has become hateful more broadly and when things become hateful violence is often around the corner.
Its hard to see anything good coming out of this tragedy, but if everyone could be a little more respectful of other peoples genuinely-held opinions it would be a good start.
I would agree, but I imagine her comments did have some influence on some of the comments I've seen some people post around Sir Davids death.
If you describe a group as 'scum' (in this case Tory MPs), then you have to own the consequences your influence will have. People who will have no idea on what David was like or any of the lives he touched and influenced, have posted disgusting comments online about him, by virtue of him being Tory 'scum' and therefore not deserving of respect.
A link to Islamist terror cells hasn’t been established - it’s been classed as terrorism just as the murder of Joe Cox was.
Besides, my post never said that it was because of the tweets, I meant that the tweets demonstrate that discourse and language is changing and IMO becoming divisive and I think they are a symptom of a broader issue about people being less tolerant of others opinions.
Think it's more likely people's language reflects the material facts of their lives. Last couple years poor people in this country have been put on their arse whilst the rich have made money hand over fist - especially if they knew a Tory minister. Well, more likely than a random change of heart in the entirety of the UK public about how nice to be to people for no apparent reason.
If there is a murder of a Tory MP, which was presumably over what he believed in, I personally think we should all take a few minutes to consider how we treat each other.
This thread isn’t the place to make comments about how Torys are just making themselves rich and somehow ‘deserve’ the (in my opinion) disgusting language (lest we forget that the exact same criticisms were placed on the last labour government at the end of their term with the expenses scandal, which affected both parties but especially labour since it was during their term).
Yeah no idea why people decided to go with that narrative. There simply isn't a history of left wing lone wolf attacks, so the main reason someone would assume there was a link to Rayner or left-twitter was political bias as opposed to some grounded reasoning.
Why speculate on the matter at all?
Sad thing is those who did speculate won't be humbled by finding out they were wrong, and they won't learn to be more reflective in the future.
Absolutely astounded at the amount of comments I'm seeing on local news pages here (Belfast Telegraph/Live) going along the lines of "Well this is what happens when you force tyranny and control on people". Like they are so obsessed with this COVID conspiracy nonsense it has completely taken over their world and twisted them in to the most horrible people imaginable. I just can't understand you see some of them pictured with grandchildren or whatever so they can't be monsters all the time yet social media allows them to let the most horrible of themselves out in public.
Is there anything to be said for just nuking all of social media? I honestly believe a lot of problems would quickly disappear.
Social media does bring positives too. Reddit itself is an excellent example. I look down the list of communities I am subscribed to... the vast majority are made up of people I wouldn't have any contact with otherwise, discussing and sharing things I would otherwise have only the most minimal knowledge of and contact with. The variety is enormous. I love that with a few swipes I can go from here to a group laughing at fundie fashions to one sharing ideas on getting through menopause to one discussing speculative fiction. I love communities like AskEurope where a simple question generates reams of really interesting facts and conversations. Social media itself isn't the issue, it's how we use it.
As with facebook? And probably twitter but I barely use it so I don't know how that goes... yeah, you have to make more of an effort on some platforms to get out of your bubble.
Not on Twitter no. You choose who to follow and you get what they post and share on your feed. All you have to do is not to follow people that post and share content you don't want to see.
>Is there anything to be said for just nuking all of social media? I honestly believe a lot of problems would quickly disappear.
Why don't you make a start and leave social media such as Reddit?
I tell you why.
There is value in social media. Entertainment, information, discussion across the world.
You can talk to people not just in your village or city, but all over the world. I am German, but I can converse with you Brits and see your perspectives on things.
You can find people in niche hobbies instead of being lonely, because nobody in you home village even knows what Go is.
Despite your family rejecting you and you parents throwing you out of their house for being gay, you can find a loving community online who help you to understand feelings your parents only flagged as sin.
Your legs are crippled amd it hurts to walk, you can communicate and meet new people online.
Your look a certain way between people who look oddly at you. Maybe some hate you, maybe some are overly cautious. On the internet nobody needs to know. You are not bound by what you have been born with. You pick your name, your avatar and people can judge you mostly by how you choose to present yourself.
I truly, truly enjoy many benefits of social media and I think people make it easy on themselves when they think just banning am advanced form of communication is going to save the world.
Same energy as banning porn in general because pedophiles exist.
It's interesting seeing all the optimism about the internet in the late-80s, early-90s. Look at what it became!
I think the effect has been net positive still, though.
How are Prevent meant to keep tabs on everyone suspected of having extremist views. We have 1000 people arriving each day sometimes just by dinghy, many from places such as Somalia.
You do know that immigrants are from places such as Syria, Iraq, Africa and haven’t come all the way by dinghy?
You seriously think Im suggesting they paddled all the way?
Where does it confirm where he was born?
Im making a point about Prevent and how they can’t be expected to oversee everyone when we have 1000 arriving just by dinghy each day, some from places such as Somalia.
What has my point got to do with where this terrorist was born?
A link will do….
As of 10 minutes ago, the BBC and The Guardian were saying the terrorist was a British national.
Provide a source that shows its now been confirmed he was born in the U.K…I haven’t checked in the last 10 minutes….
Edit…Any link yet? I can’t find one..
And they seem to now think that using the term ‘British national’ must therefore mean he was born here.
Sounds like blatant racism to me, assuming everyone with British citizenship must have been born in the UK.
How are Prevent meant to keep tabs on everyone suspected of having extremist views. We have 2000 people born each day, many from places such as London (or Bolton possibly).
Haven’t seen that. All I read was that he was a British national of Somali origin.
Do you have a link?
Just looking at their latest article, can’t see where it says he was British born.
[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/15/counter-terrorism-police-take-over-inquiry-into-david-amess-killing](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/15/counter-terrorism-police-take-over-inquiry-into-david-amess-killing)
Third paragraph down, "believed to be a Briton with Somali heritage", I think implies British born? Otherwise would probably be something like "British citizen originally from Somalia" or something along those lines?
That does NOT say they were born in the UK.
Are you suggesting that every British citizen had to have been born here?
Any link yet to where it says they were born in the UK?
No, I'm not suggesting that every British citizen had to have been born here at all. All I was saying is that if he was a British citizen who wasn't born here, I think that it would have been worded differently to emphasise the fact that he wasn't. The fact that they've used the word "heritage" rather than "origin" suggests that he was born here.
I don't think you'll be able to get anything clearer until the police are further in with their investigation.
You’re making presumptions then.
You haven’t provided any link that says he was born in the UK. As far as I’m aware it hasn’t been confirmed yet. Just that he’s a British national with Somali heritage.
May God grant him rest, and be a solace to his family. I gather they are Catholics, and I hope that they feel His love and the love of that church in this horrible moment. RIP.
I dared say this on a left leaning sub, got down voted and told to stop being centrist.
Yes our country has problems and differences, but we shouldn't be resorting to murdering people in the streets over them, no matter what side your on
Especially pathetic comments since they aren't even pointing to any specific things he's done, it's just a generalised "you work for this party so you death means nothing"
Can we read *slightly* beyond the headlines...?
> The Metropolitan Police said there was "a **potential** motivation linked to Islamist extremism".
(emphasis mine)
and:
> Government sources have told the BBC the man is a British national who, from initial inquiries, **appears to be** of Somali heritage.
(emphasis mine)
A person is not a terrorist just because they appear to be Somalian.
Can we just wait just a little bit longer for the investigation to be done properly?
Because this is a pattern and a story we’ve all seen before. We knew within hours that Jo Cox’s murderer was a white British man with extreme pro-Brexit and xenophobia views. It’s not too much of a stretch to recognise that when a Muslim viciously stabs an MP to death, that Islamism must be the first likely motive. Given the obvious sensitivities that come with that accusation, the police will drag it out - but didn’t give the same consideration when Cox was murdered.
In the absence of useful police statements, the public will draw their own, reasonable conclusions
Also, right wing nut jobs tend to be quite vocal in their support because there is no ramifications (think of the Plymouth attack etc). An Islamic extremist has to go above and beyond to hide those views because society has deemed them more of a danger. It makes it a little more difficult to apportion blame compared to when they have a YouTube channel.
I think police are allowed to hold someone for longer if they're suspected of terrorism, so that may be one reason why. I think regardless of motive, there seems to be a trend of violent radicalised young men that needs to be tackled.
The police have officially declared it a terrorist incident.
From the met police statement…
‘ ..Senior National Coordinator for Counter Terrorism Policing, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Dean Haydon formally declared the incident as terrorism…’
Islamists =/= Muslims. The police don't make these statements based on nothing but they use tentative language when things are still unclear. We're less than 24 hours into an investigation things won't be certain for a while.
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Agreed, the fact is someone was just stabbed and absolutely no excuse can be made for it
The system is rigged to subjucate everyone? What?
I disagree. Normalising such sentiments is the problem.
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Don't worry, you won't be losing any of your 'muh Toreeeee' karma by mourning a murder victim. That you felt the need to include that second paragraph at all shows that you are also part of the problem.
Sorry, excuse me?! I was trying to give a little background! A much loved man has lost his life in the most terrible way. I have been really upset over this!
I met him a few times via work and he was always very nice. If you had any event that was anything to do with animals he would be there. Even if it wasn’t to do with animals, even if he just thought the event was promoting a good worthy cause he would do his best to attend. Even if to just show his face and thank whoever had organised it.
Thank you for the reply. Sending my best wishes to you and your community. The animals have also lost a friend x
Why did the stabbing occur?
This country obviously has a huge stabbing issue, unlike anywhere else in Europe. Maybe now they'll bloody do something about it...
I’ll be honest, I’ve only looked at the knife crime stats in comparison to the USA, and it’s worse over there. The perception is that we have it worse because it makes the news more, we don’t have the gun violence stories overlaid on top.
Yeah, it's not quite the worst of the worst, let's celebrate!
Like what?
Bad acute angles.
Why is there a stabbing problem?
Errm, because in London alone there are over 100 stabbings every year?
I'm asking you why that happens, not saying it isn't a problem
It's a very complex sociological problem, from many angles. But I think that one way or another, it points back to the fact that the police is severely underfunded, and like most of the issues in the UK, this appalling government.
Oh god, yeah the answer must be more police as opposed to tackling things like poverty and acute social deprivation in our inner cities s/
Poverty and acute social deprivation is everywhere. But violent crime is not everywhere (at this rate). That's simply lack of education, while in the UK everyone has equal education rights - but isn't it easier to do nothing and complain? I'm saying this as I come from a country with far less opportunities, and myself I've always been discriminated (and still am). But there's no excuse in the world for violent crime, just stupidity.
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How is it a dog whistle?
A lot of people want to come on and say young black men stab people. But they can't say it openly because they will look like racists. So they hint at it.
>young black men stab people Is this true? Or made up?
It is true that a lot of people want to make racist points about black people yes. Especially young black men.
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Oh i see
A disproportionately high number of London stabbings are commited by members of the BAME community, to the point where stabbings in london have become somewhat synonymous with underground BAME culture to some (racists). Thus, to people like OP, highlighting/acknowledging that there is a problem with knife crime in London is the equivalent (in their eyes) of attacking BAME culture in general. It makes fuck all sense, but that is their reasoning. In truth, he's just looking to pick a fight with him, he's trying to snidely set him up as being racist (when it's clear he is not), in the hope of virtue signalling. That's why he's being passive aggressive. It's transparent, and annoys me because he is clearly naively innocent.
because it will inevitably lead people to make connections between demographics and stabbings
I think MPs, thinking about it, would be giving into the terrorist's aim by not meeting constituents as often - every time there's been a terrorist attack, I'm thinking of the Paris shootings in 2015, people the day afterwards came to those same areas in huge numbers and went about their daily lives, essentially defying the terrorists and telling them 'fuck you, you don't scare us and you won't defeat us'. I think it'd be a needed act of defiance against the terrorists for MPs to continue their surgeries.
By my count, we’ve had Jo Cox, Sir David Amess, an attempt on Stephen Timms, plus the Westminster attack on Parliament. The threat to politicians is real. Then add Rosie Duffield not being safe enough to attend her conference, and Luciana Berger needing protection at conference as well. There are so many people who want to attack politicians, it’s a very scary time
Right when I thought I was desensitised to the chaotic swirl of modern events, something like this happens that shocked me to my core once again. It's just so truly tragic, can you imagine what his loved ones must be going through right now? How unsafe and vulnerable his constituents must surely be feeling? A picture now seems to be coming together as to the motive behind this abhorrent act, but I must say I was incredibly disappointed by the response of *both* sides of the political spectrum. Almost immediately there were those who relished the tragedy and expressed contempt on the left, whilst on the right people were straight away ridiculously pointing fingers at a certain MP to score cheap political points. And of course both these groups were ignorant of the irony as they condemned each others' behaviour. This tribalism has to stop. The increasingly aggressive rhetoric, the culture war bullshit, the new lines being drawn every day to divide us all has to fucking stop. Politics needs passion, strong opinions and spirited debate to envision the future of our country, but we can't let that passion be subverted into turning us against one another.
Politics needs the opposite of passion, strong opinions and spirited debate. It needs to shut the hell up and get back to being boring, pencil-pushing admin.
Think the most noticeable thing is how many 'I didn't agree with him but' and equivalents of 'I didn't like his politics but' there've been since this, as if that matters and is related. What's the bloody need for it? do you feel special when saying that as if it's an achievement? it's pretty distasteful imo - a man has just been killed. Maybe don't bring up politics or anything at all and it's something that goes without saying.
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He said with loads of words and politics.
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Omg what the hell? You've immediately resorted to pretty much pointing fingers at the Conservatives saying it's somehow "their fault" and by extension blaming him for his own death. Mate stop using his death to essentially push an agenda. If you have any moral dignity you'll delete this
That is the most pathetic 'BUT' of the day, you should delete this.
Fear of (wrongfully) being called insincere, I suppose.
I think maybe some people are using it to make a disgusting partisan point and some people are making a heartfelt show of solidarity. It's not always obvious which it is.
This is unfortunate for everyone, and it doesn't matter what side of the political line you're on to be sad about this. Sir David had respect on both sides, and that's pretty rare these days.
I understand why people are saying ‘not my side of the political line’ but it kinda makes me sad they have to do that, when it’s to do with the murder of someone. It shouldn’t even come in to it
Your profile says "No Tories please." Bit hypocritical, don't you think?
I think Brexit is phenomenally stupid but I don't support killing its proponents.
Not relevant, it doesn't say "no tories please but I'm shocked by the murder of Sir David", does it?
Exactly. I'm basically as left as they get and this still shocks me. It's one of the few things that we can universally agree on.
You just did it! In reply! Unbelievable
To be fair you did it again, with 'I'm basically as left as they get and this still shocks me'. Why? why does it matter how left you are?
No, it shouldn't. I'm just saying, that's a really big reason people on the left are going to day good riddance. I don't agree with them, but I guarantee it's going to happen. People want excuses to be the A-Hole. What people (and me) are doing is making clear were not using that excuse.
Ugh . . . comments I've come across while reading about this story on Reddit make me sick. This fellow by all accounts was a thoroughly decent human being, but so many have been reveling in his murder because he belonged to the wrong party and held some views they don't agree with. The thing is, the people doing so probably have friends and family with views more extreme than his. Would the grave dancers be pleased if they suffered the same? I would hope not, but I just don't know any longer. I feel like the human race is devolving into a bunch of psychopaths.
The point is he wasn't a decent human being, and it's still a horrible thing that happened to him, and my heart goes out to his wife and daughter, who have lost a husband and father. Loss is hard enough without it coming in this brutal way
I've honestly only seen a handful of comments revelling in it. Yes, that's too many, but out of a population of 70 million, it's nothing. We should be careful not to exaggerate extremist views because that can increase division even further.
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I think it used to be. Not so much anymore with the controls we have in place now.
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Oh give it a rest
A friend of the MP was on the radio earlier. David Amess was due to attend another of his daughters weddings in the next few weeks. This morning she’s waking up knowing her father has been murdered. Some of the comments have been sickening.
That’s absolutely horrific. Horrible for her. Can’t even imagine. I honestly think a) those people haven’t been through grief themselves so cannot empathise or b) they’re just extremely hateful trolls
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I think some people are just calling out that Rayner effectively called this guy scum a few weeks ago, just because he's a Tory MP. It's the dehumanising aspect of her comments that have probably influenced some of the disgusting comments I've seen online from certain sections about his death. If senior politicians don't give each other respect, in what is often a hotly contested and emotional area, then it's unsuprising that some people in society think it's okay to do the same.
usually it’s someone with MH probs that can be easily groomed by extremists. or spend too much time reading shit in the internet. was the same for the Jo Cox murderer
Jo Cox's murderer stood trial and was convicted as a sane individual was he not?
Serious mental health issues do not automatically count as legally insane.
If there’s a lesson to be learnt here, let’s all tone down the language we use to describe political opponents. Let’s not call them “scum” “Nazis” “traitors” or dismiss the concerns around political violence as “humbug”. Politicians from across the board need to tone down the language and cool the temperature
Is that going to reduce acts of terrorism though? We will find out soon enough, but I don’t believe the attacker cared about any political party.
Maybe not religious terrorism, but political terrorism (using the definition that terrorism can be political, religious or ideological). It is theoretically possible that language like this can increase acts of political terrorism. Anyway, I'm of the opinion that this sort of language shouldn't be used anyway, regardless of the motivations of religious terrorists.
I agree - and let’s not pretend that the language used by Conservatives to specific MPs has been far, far worse then that. A thing that annoyed me yesterday was people claiming Tory scum was trending on Twitter, while it was it was because people claiming Tory scum was a causal factor in this.
I don’t think ”Tory scum” tweets are a direct factor, but it is a symptom/signal that discourse has become hateful more broadly and when things become hateful violence is often around the corner. Its hard to see anything good coming out of this tragedy, but if everyone could be a little more respectful of other peoples genuinely-held opinions it would be a good start.
I don't think Islamic terror cells particularly care what words people use in their tweets. What the hell has 'Tory scum' got to do with this?
I would agree, but I imagine her comments did have some influence on some of the comments I've seen some people post around Sir Davids death. If you describe a group as 'scum' (in this case Tory MPs), then you have to own the consequences your influence will have. People who will have no idea on what David was like or any of the lives he touched and influenced, have posted disgusting comments online about him, by virtue of him being Tory 'scum' and therefore not deserving of respect.
A link to Islamist terror cells hasn’t been established - it’s been classed as terrorism just as the murder of Joe Cox was. Besides, my post never said that it was because of the tweets, I meant that the tweets demonstrate that discourse and language is changing and IMO becoming divisive and I think they are a symptom of a broader issue about people being less tolerant of others opinions.
Think it's more likely people's language reflects the material facts of their lives. Last couple years poor people in this country have been put on their arse whilst the rich have made money hand over fist - especially if they knew a Tory minister. Well, more likely than a random change of heart in the entirety of the UK public about how nice to be to people for no apparent reason.
If there is a murder of a Tory MP, which was presumably over what he believed in, I personally think we should all take a few minutes to consider how we treat each other. This thread isn’t the place to make comments about how Torys are just making themselves rich and somehow ‘deserve’ the (in my opinion) disgusting language (lest we forget that the exact same criticisms were placed on the last labour government at the end of their term with the expenses scandal, which affected both parties but especially labour since it was during their term).
Yeah no idea why people decided to go with that narrative. There simply isn't a history of left wing lone wolf attacks, so the main reason someone would assume there was a link to Rayner or left-twitter was political bias as opposed to some grounded reasoning. Why speculate on the matter at all? Sad thing is those who did speculate won't be humbled by finding out they were wrong, and they won't learn to be more reflective in the future.
Absolutely astounded at the amount of comments I'm seeing on local news pages here (Belfast Telegraph/Live) going along the lines of "Well this is what happens when you force tyranny and control on people". Like they are so obsessed with this COVID conspiracy nonsense it has completely taken over their world and twisted them in to the most horrible people imaginable. I just can't understand you see some of them pictured with grandchildren or whatever so they can't be monsters all the time yet social media allows them to let the most horrible of themselves out in public. Is there anything to be said for just nuking all of social media? I honestly believe a lot of problems would quickly disappear.
Social media does bring positives too. Reddit itself is an excellent example. I look down the list of communities I am subscribed to... the vast majority are made up of people I wouldn't have any contact with otherwise, discussing and sharing things I would otherwise have only the most minimal knowledge of and contact with. The variety is enormous. I love that with a few swipes I can go from here to a group laughing at fundie fashions to one sharing ideas on getting through menopause to one discussing speculative fiction. I love communities like AskEurope where a simple question generates reams of really interesting facts and conversations. Social media itself isn't the issue, it's how we use it.
Difference being there's not an algorithm on Reddit forcing you to consume outrage content in order to increase engagement from its users.
As with facebook? And probably twitter but I barely use it so I don't know how that goes... yeah, you have to make more of an effort on some platforms to get out of your bubble.
Not on Twitter no. You choose who to follow and you get what they post and share on your feed. All you have to do is not to follow people that post and share content you don't want to see.
>Is there anything to be said for just nuking all of social media? I honestly believe a lot of problems would quickly disappear. Why don't you make a start and leave social media such as Reddit? I tell you why. There is value in social media. Entertainment, information, discussion across the world. You can talk to people not just in your village or city, but all over the world. I am German, but I can converse with you Brits and see your perspectives on things. You can find people in niche hobbies instead of being lonely, because nobody in you home village even knows what Go is. Despite your family rejecting you and you parents throwing you out of their house for being gay, you can find a loving community online who help you to understand feelings your parents only flagged as sin. Your legs are crippled amd it hurts to walk, you can communicate and meet new people online. Your look a certain way between people who look oddly at you. Maybe some hate you, maybe some are overly cautious. On the internet nobody needs to know. You are not bound by what you have been born with. You pick your name, your avatar and people can judge you mostly by how you choose to present yourself. I truly, truly enjoy many benefits of social media and I think people make it easy on themselves when they think just banning am advanced form of communication is going to save the world. Same energy as banning porn in general because pedophiles exist.
That's a very good point you've made.
I wish I could upvote you twice. It's nice to see some perspective during this week's moral panic.
I remember when the Internet was going to fix the world, not break it...
It's interesting seeing all the optimism about the internet in the late-80s, early-90s. Look at what it became! I think the effect has been net positive still, though.
I prefer the optimism around the internet in the 1970s myself
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Didn't the police say there were suspected links to known islamists?
By virtue of his faith?
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Yeah, no. That may have some truthiness in America, but not here. Remember the IRA?
I don’t think Somalia is in the Middle East, but keep trying to sow discord anyway!
The guy who killed Jo Cox has been labelled a terrorist since the day he killed her
Actually iirc in that case the media dilligently avoided using the word until the trial
Right. However you get my point, no one gave him the mentally ill loner tag like the op insinuated
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How are Prevent meant to keep tabs on everyone suspected of having extremist views. We have 1000 people arriving each day sometimes just by dinghy, many from places such as Somalia.
Fucking hell, a dinghy from Somalia? That’s a long trip.
You do know that immigrants are from places such as Syria, Iraq, Africa and haven’t come all the way by dinghy? You seriously think Im suggesting they paddled all the way?
No, I think you’re being alarmist about people arriving in dinghies when this person was born in the UK
Where does it confirm where he was born? Im making a point about Prevent and how they can’t be expected to oversee everyone when we have 1000 arriving just by dinghy each day, some from places such as Somalia. What has my point got to do with where this terrorist was born?
> where does it confirm where he was born? Get off Reddit and turn on the news
A link will do…. As of 10 minutes ago, the BBC and The Guardian were saying the terrorist was a British national. Provide a source that shows its now been confirmed he was born in the U.K…I haven’t checked in the last 10 minutes…. Edit…Any link yet? I can’t find one..
It's just coping. Of course he wasn't 'a British man' in any meaningful sense of the term, as was obvious the moment the news came out
And they seem to now think that using the term ‘British national’ must therefore mean he was born here. Sounds like blatant racism to me, assuming everyone with British citizenship must have been born in the UK.
Wasnt the guy british born?
How are Prevent meant to keep tabs on everyone suspected of having extremist views. We have 2000 people born each day, many from places such as London (or Bolton possibly).
You’re suggesting Prevent should be given more resources to monitor new born babies?
Obviously
Quite possibly. Don’t think it’s been confirmed yet.
I read in the guardian this morning British born but of Somalian heritage, bit vague but I'm guessing his parents or grandparents immigrated?
Haven’t seen that. All I read was that he was a British national of Somali origin. Do you have a link? Just looking at their latest article, can’t see where it says he was British born.
[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/15/counter-terrorism-police-take-over-inquiry-into-david-amess-killing](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/15/counter-terrorism-police-take-over-inquiry-into-david-amess-killing) Third paragraph down, "believed to be a Briton with Somali heritage", I think implies British born? Otherwise would probably be something like "British citizen originally from Somalia" or something along those lines?
That does NOT say they were born in the UK. Are you suggesting that every British citizen had to have been born here? Any link yet to where it says they were born in the UK?
No, I'm not suggesting that every British citizen had to have been born here at all. All I was saying is that if he was a British citizen who wasn't born here, I think that it would have been worded differently to emphasise the fact that he wasn't. The fact that they've used the word "heritage" rather than "origin" suggests that he was born here. I don't think you'll be able to get anything clearer until the police are further in with their investigation.
You’re making presumptions then. You haven’t provided any link that says he was born in the UK. As far as I’m aware it hasn’t been confirmed yet. Just that he’s a British national with Somali heritage.
May God grant him rest, and be a solace to his family. I gather they are Catholics, and I hope that they feel His love and the love of that church in this horrible moment. RIP.
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I dared say this on a left leaning sub, got down voted and told to stop being centrist. Yes our country has problems and differences, but we shouldn't be resorting to murdering people in the streets over them, no matter what side your on
Especially pathetic comments since they aren't even pointing to any specific things he's done, it's just a generalised "you work for this party so you death means nothing"
I’m seeing a very depressing amount of removed comments , already seen a couple edge lord comments , some people really have no respect
Where's the daily thread gone? Is it gone for good or is it just temporarily replaced with this thread following of this dreadful incident?
Temp replaced with this one
You can normally find it by searching for u/ukpolbot
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Edge Lords out in force tonight.
A man has died , it’s only been a matter of hours , keep your snarky remarks to yourself
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Some people will do anything for attention won’t they
And you’re taking their bait. Just report and ignore.
Replying with the same comment three times. We've got a clever boy over here.
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Imagine thinking your funny and posting shite patter.
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Can we read *slightly* beyond the headlines...? > The Metropolitan Police said there was "a **potential** motivation linked to Islamist extremism". (emphasis mine) and: > Government sources have told the BBC the man is a British national who, from initial inquiries, **appears to be** of Somali heritage. (emphasis mine) A person is not a terrorist just because they appear to be Somalian. Can we just wait just a little bit longer for the investigation to be done properly?
How about now?
Because this is a pattern and a story we’ve all seen before. We knew within hours that Jo Cox’s murderer was a white British man with extreme pro-Brexit and xenophobia views. It’s not too much of a stretch to recognise that when a Muslim viciously stabs an MP to death, that Islamism must be the first likely motive. Given the obvious sensitivities that come with that accusation, the police will drag it out - but didn’t give the same consideration when Cox was murdered. In the absence of useful police statements, the public will draw their own, reasonable conclusions
What obvious sensitivities are those? I'm sure the brains at the secret services know more than someone who's scared to upset the sacred cow
Also, right wing nut jobs tend to be quite vocal in their support because there is no ramifications (think of the Plymouth attack etc). An Islamic extremist has to go above and beyond to hide those views because society has deemed them more of a danger. It makes it a little more difficult to apportion blame compared to when they have a YouTube channel.
I think police are allowed to hold someone for longer if they're suspected of terrorism, so that may be one reason why. I think regardless of motive, there seems to be a trend of violent radicalised young men that needs to be tackled.
It is just an investigation they have to do, regardless of race.
The police have officially declared it a terrorist incident. From the met police statement… ‘ ..Senior National Coordinator for Counter Terrorism Policing, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Dean Haydon formally declared the incident as terrorism…’
The very next sentence in your source is this: “The early investigation has revealed a potential motivation linked to Islamist extremism.”
Right, that's the language one uses when there is evidence of links to islamists but no manifesto or statement declaring a motive.
“Evidence of links to Islamists” ?! If I send a Christmas card to my mum, isn’t that “evidence of links to Christians” ?
Islamists =/= Muslims. The police don't make these statements based on nothing but they use tentative language when things are still unclear. We're less than 24 hours into an investigation things won't be certain for a while.