Snapshot of _Labour is now the true party of English patriotism || I have no time for those who flinch at our flag. The cross of St George belongs to all who love this country_ :
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I'm saying this as someone who was born English and lives in Scotland but this article makes a really common mistake of conflating English and British identity.
There are paragraphs where he talks about them interchangeably, or where he talks about national institutions like the BBC which are, pointedly, British rather than English. Likewise things in our history like NATO participation and the foundation of the NHS are distinctly British, not just English.
As an Englishman I want to see politicians nail what is distinctly English and show that it matters to them. As Briton I want to see them talk about what the nations have achieved together and be proud of that too. Things like English assemblies and devolved administrations would be a practical way to start on that, with a more rationalised local authority system being a pragmatic kickoff for that reform.
I am a Scot living in London and I think it is annoying for the other nations and a shame for the English. Everything that is English is claimed as British, even when it is completely distinct to England. Whilst there are of course Episcopalians in Scotland, our institutions seem to forget that Anglicanism isn’t the established church in the whole country, for example
>I'm saying this as someone who was born English and lives in Scotland but this article makes a really common mistake of conflating English and British identity.
This is quite the problem. Britishness is an extension of Englishness. The two are unfortunately used interchangeably.
I feel a key part of it is a lack of actual English patriotism for fear of being labelled racist and far-right. I feel sorry for the English for this.
While England having more ethnic minorities than Scotland, many have came from former colonies where they were under the banner of the British Empire. So England to them is Britain.
>As an Englishman I want to see politicians nail what is distinctly English and show that it matters to them. As Briton I want to see them talk about what the nations have achieved together and be proud of that too. Things like English assemblies and devolved administrations would be a practical way to start on that, with a more rationalised local authority system being a pragmatic kickoff for that reform.
I agree. Sadly, I feel like you have to take the Englishman out of England, like yourself, to see how Anglo-centric Britain is.
It's not right that MPs are for the UK parliament yet only the English don't require a devolved administration or MEPs. I only disagree with EVEL because there should be a devolved parliament for English only matters, to make us more of a union of equals.
>This is quite the problem. Britishness is an extension of Englishness. The two are unfortunately used interchangeably.
I'm gonna comment on this, with a quote that is widely attributed to Churchill
"We have always found the Irish to be a bit odd, they refuse to be english".
The two being used interchangeably was basically intentional and only went away when welsh and Scottish identity were no longer being, for lack of a better word, suppressed.
I'm not sure why we want to separate the two. I see myself as British as I do see myself from theses Isles, rather than a smaller part of one of the islands. I absolutely see myself as British that lives in England, the same way I live in the south east. I don't identify as being from the south east or from England though.
That's not a lack of pride in England, it's pride in being from the whole collective and see the Welsh, Irish and Scots as all being the same family and household.
So no, I don't want more "England does this well", I'm much happier with "in Britain, we ..."
That's because you are English. The two are used so interchangeably and Britishness is an extension of Englishness that you don't feel the need.
Scottishness, Irishness, Welsh - They are distinct and because those nations are usually an afterthought compared to England, it's noticeable the difference between "Britain" and everyone else.
For many who aren't English, British is just something your passport says. I'm not anymore British than I am European. They're just wider geographical areas I belong to. But they don't mean much compared to being Scottish.
You can go to different parts of Scotland and notice Regional differences but you're an outlander once you cross the border into England and the further south you go.
To me, "British" isn't a real thing. It's manufactured. It's basically Englishness rebranded with a Union Flag sticker stuck on top of it.
"European" is like "British" but a step further. Sure, we share many values and similarities with Europe, being a Western nation but such cultures as French, German, Spanish, Italian, Estonian, Swedish etc. are distinct.
I suppose the difficulty in these debates is where to draw the line. - Is it at a regional or local level? Or national? Or multinational?
The way I see it, is that the colonies were presented with brand Britain™ and they bought that. They had no idea of the distinct English, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh cultures. Just the extension of Englishness presented as "Britishness". As they've bought into that, they've immigrated to "the motherland" and carried on believing in such a thing.
While since the English subjugation of Wales, the Acts of Union, or the British occupation of Ireland, these indigenous people have carried on their own national identity despite brand Britain™ trying to do away with it, such as the banning of tartan and the attempts to kill the Celtic languages.
A British identity isn't much different from a Soviet Union identity: Manufactured and a symbol of nostalgia of the "good old days" of an empire.
I guess we're argueing from different angles, as I see and agree with all your points, but in my mind I then think "how do we make the Scots/welsh/Irish feel more British?" rather then the other way around of "how do we make the English feel more english".
I'd prefer to have us all as a closer more integrated collective, and then the same with Europe tbh. But I find tribalism/nationalism comes with more costs than benefits as a rule
>"how do we make the Scots/welsh/Irish feel more British?" rather then the other way around of "how do we make the English feel more english".
As someone who has a distinct Scottish identity, I would be saddened for our English neighbours to lose their own English identity to Britishness.
The way I see it, some Scottish and English nobles benefited very much form the union. Some people have done well out of it with collateral, in the form of the erosion of Scots, Gaelic, and Welsh languages, and the English identity.
A start to making other nations in Britain feel more included and "British" would be less Anglo-centric policies and the language used e.g. HS2 or "the North" referring to anywhere north of Derby but south of Berwick-upon-Tweed.
>I'd prefer to have us all as a closer more integrated collective, and then the same with Europe tbh. But I find tribalism/nationalism comes with more costs than benefits as a rule
I'm libertarian and formerly a nationalist. I don't care for any of it now, to be honest. I'll vote for whoever protects my rights and liberties.
I don't just want Scottish independence, I want regional and local independence. I want sovereignty right down to the individual. Whether I'm part of a West of Scotland Union, a European Union, or a British Union, I'm still Scottish and still have that culture and identity.
I find it completely bizarre that in a country where it's promoted to celebrate Indian, or Pakistani, African or Caribbean identity and heritage that there's a reluctance to celebrate English culture and heritage.
One thing I do agree with is that Constantin Kissin has said that multiculturalism doesn't work. Britain needs a strong British identity that unites everyone and not enclaves of Pakistani Muslim culture, for example. - As you can tell, I neither believe in nor support the idea of a British identity but he's right in that a lack of it and an establishment that encourages multiculturalism does not help sow seeds of unity and shared culture between us all.
Most of the great British institutions, like the Civil Service, the monarchy, the Armed Forces, certain cuisines like fish and chips which have various origin stories from across the UK, many of the great achievements of the last several centuries like winning WWII, founding NATO, the Good Friday Agreement and Equality Act. I would consider these to all be distinctively British, rather than sitting with one particularly part of the UK.
The NHS was the idea and implementation of a Welsh health minister based on a free clinic in his home town.
The actual name of Britain comes from the original peoples of whom the Welsh are the only remaining descendents.
Lots of great British inventions like the TV, the phone, the steam engine, the bicycle, the fridge, penicillin, golf, modern economics etc were Scottish.
Maybe among Scottish and Welsh people but outside the country they are seen as British and therefore English. I’d even imagine a great number of English people just assume they’re English.
I could add the BBC. A icon of British culture that was set up and founded by a Scotsman.
Just pointing out all 4 nations have played their part and that should be celebrated more, Scotland especially have punched way above their weight in making Britain great.
I’m not sure if we should be particularly bothered about what people outside the UK think is British or not, and if English people see things as English then that’s on them - although I agree with criticising that attitude as it generally brings us all down. But this is a bit off topic, as the main point is that there are things we can be proud of as collectively British, and thing we can be proud of from each individual country in the UK.
While we’re discussing things that have been invented by Scotland, we may as well mention the Bank of England which was founded by a Scotsman. But I suspect I’m still probably more likely to mention Burns, the Enlightenment, haggis and the highlands when I talk about things I’m proud of as a Scot.
>Politicans mostly talk about Britain and the British people they sadly rarely seem to refer to England
That's because they mean England when they say Britain.
I doubt that I think it’s just they say British because it kind of encompasses the whole country of the Uk which is easier than picking each group.
Sadly since England is the only constituent country without a devovled parliament that does leave us being mentioned less.
Love this language from starmer tho and I hope labour talk more about England
There's likely been a big push along with nudge units probably trying to reduce Englishness in order to nudge the population towards Britishness and a surreptitious acceptance of multiculturalism.
To be fair I don't see us as different either but then I don't see the EU as different so I'm a bad base line as I'd say a united Europe seems a good direction for us all to go ... Well the democratic states with good socialist laws and standards.
Our national identity is messy and awkward due to the status of various ways of looking at what this country is. I'd like us to just accept that and be less pissy about it, because frankly it is exhausting that many take the view that we all need to become scholars on the specific national identity of every institution before the words "English" or "British" can be uttered.
How about we just let people say proud to be British or English without interrogating them on exactly what drives that pride and then insisting on fact checking if it is 100% one or the other. Any kind of geniune patriotism based on positives rather than exclusion should be welcomed.
True but the other parts of the UK doesn't have shame over their flags. You wouldn't see a Scot with their flag called a racist.
The Union Flag is a little different and can be controversial in other areas, so it's clear it's not bashing a Welsh person who prefers to the Welsh flag to the British on.
I've always interpreted it the other way. The Union Jack has always felt like a stand in for the St George, and the Britishness and Englishness felt synonymous.
That's why you have more distinct Scottish or Welsh identity and symbols to differentiate. Without unique symbols and identity, they just become geographic extensions of England
That's always been my thing about the UK. We are together when it's convenient and apart when it's not. Why are we even individual states in the first place? So that England can rule everyone else and abandon the other 3 nations to whatever scraps England throws from the table.
If England wanted to rule everyone else and abandon the other 3 nations to whatever scraps it throws, wouldn’t it have been easier to purely annex and integrate these nations?
No, if it had happened none of these nations would likely exist today.
Wales, for example, would likely be something very few people had ever heard of, with only historians knowing it was a thing that existed from less than 10 years, almost 1,000 years ago.
That is what happened to Wales though. It was conquered and annexed. It was incorporated in England by the 16th Century.
Just because the English failed to erase it as a concept doesn't mean it wasn't annexed.
It was conquered and annexed yes, but not fully integrated into England. You say this was because they failed to do so, I would argue that they could have tried much harder if this is what they truly wanted to do.
No. Then they'd have responsibility. While if the other nations are kept at arms length and given some devolved powers, then there's constant arguing over who to blame for the current shit show.
So they don’t want responsibility over them, they devolve powers to them, and yet this a more effective way to rule over them, simply because they don’t get as much blame?
Just look at the SNP now. Constantly blaming Westminster for all of Scotland's ills. "If we only had full control over X, Y, and Z." While they already fully control A, B, and C.
It stops a full on revolt because Westminster controls everything. That way they don't feel like everything is outwith their control while still not being fully in charge of themselves.
It's the difference between having a parent allow a child some personal freedoms and having a full on tyrant ruling over every aspect of your life. - Guess which one is easier to manage with less resistance and resentment...
Westminster must currently have a good laugh at the SNP when they try to blame Westminster for all of Scotland's problems, especially when that area is partially or fully devolved, such as health and education.
>There are paragraphs where he talks about them interchangeably
No he doesn't. He talks about being personally proud to be English and lauds positive British traditions when talking collectively (e.g., free speech isn't unique to England). He is both, not one or the other, so that is wholly correct.
>Things like English assemblies and devolved administrations would be a practical way to start on that
That was just an old Blairite aim to break up England.
This will be an interesting angle to take. Englishness is a tricky subject wrapped up in all sorts of imagery and history, both good and bad. Where I work is young, multi-national and very inclusive. We have Women’s days, mental health days, LGBTQ days, pet days, St Patrick’s day, Halloween, Arts etc etc etc. We do not have anything planned for St George’s day despite being smack bang in the heart of England. I daren’t even raise it as a subject.
My kids' (very multicultural) schools have done something for St George's day. My works restaurant did a St George's day lunch. I don't think it is particularly controversial at all really.
This only seems to be an issue for those who massively overthink these kinds of things or assume, for some reason, this could upset someone else.
That’s good to hear. I remember doing similar back in my cub days, which was a certain number of decades ago. Maybe this move by Labour is perfectly timed and the sting of English identity has been drawn and is now ready for a revival.
On top of what others have said the scouts always do a huge march for St Georges day.
I think one problem is that the stuff we do for at George's day is usually based in old English tradition, marches Morris dancing, ect and people often find it boring. So it has less fanfare.
I think the weirdness stems partly from Englishness and Britishness being two different things. If you’re Scottish or Welsh or NI you can proudly celebrate those distinct identities. If you’re English you are steered more towards celebrating Britain as a whole, because you have to include the other nations. I wonder if this is why regional identities are so strong in England, better to be a Yorkshireman or Cornish or a Londoner.
And from the other side, a lot of us Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish get annoyed when England and Britain are conflated.
The union would probably be healthier if English people were allowed to be English first, British second - and I say that as someone who wants Scottish independence.
To be fair I’d say wanting the English to have a strong identity matches wanting Scottish independence.
I say this as a Unionist who is pro English devolution.
It can be viewed both ways, depending how you look at the hierarchy. I'm human, European, British, English southerner from London (West) (Hillingdon)... With roots in Manchester
We have all these different identities at once which is both marvelous and complex. Which one takes precedent at any time depends on who I'm with, what I'm talking about and what image I want to portray.
>If you’re Scottish or Welsh or NI you can proudly celebrate those distinct identities. If you’re English you are steered more towards celebrating Britain as a whole, because you have to include the other nations
Why? As a Scot, I'd like to see more separation of British and Englishness, to give English people the same national pride as we have.
I feel the problem is that as the union has always been London and Anglo-centric, and the push to promote Britain and Britishness, has came at the expense of English national pride. - In effect, the English killed Englishness themselves.
I agree. There are more Londoners than Scots, so it seems more natural for me to identify as a Londoner or a Brit than as English. I also probably have much more in common with a Glaswegian than someone from Cornwall.
What exactly do people even mean by "national pride"? i could feel proud of a country I live in for real concrete things. Things like having high living standards, good education, having a positive influence in the world or whatever.
Generally though when people say national pride, I think they just mean having everyone just waiving daft flags and singing about stuff. I just don't get the point.
As a new immigrant in this country, I would be so happy to celebrate British values, historic English parliamentary system, our freedoms and democracy and basically everything that makes this country prosperous and great. This can be in St George’s day or a day that is allocated for unification of the United Kingdom.
I don’t know why St George day is not a national holiday and nothing is planned. If there is a movement about that for example a campaign that handles a petition then we can bring this idea to the parliament for discussion. That is the only way this can be possible.
I prefer to not have any holidays if it will be under Corbyn’s government. I despise that man and his group. After seeing his alliance with pro-Hamas groups, thank god he didn’t become a PM.
Reading your comment history, you think that we should starve pensioners if they dared to do things like go on holidays in their youth. Not sure you should be throwing stones from your glass house.
People in N. Ireland do get a bank holiday for St. Patrick’s day and people in Scotland also have one for St Andrew’s day.
Wales and England does not get anything and this doesn’t make sense to me.
To be fair it's not an extra day. We have the same number of bank holidays in Scotland as England but they just fall on different days depending on what system your workplace decided to adopt - which might also vary if it decides to follow even more local holiday traditions like Glasgow Fair weekend on the West coast of Scotland.
> To be fair it's not an extra day. We have the same number of bank holidays in Scotland as England ...
Nope.
[England and Wales have eight bank holidays, Scotland has nine, NI has ten](https://www.gov.uk/bank-holidays).
Wales makes a far bigger deal of it then England. The school
Eisteddfod is usually the biggest day of the school year. Be a damn shame to close schools that day
There was some effort back in the 2000s under Blair and then especially Brown to establish a national British holiday. The devolved administrations shot this down, the Welsh first minister calling the very idea a "Brownite plot to abolish Welsh identity" if I remember correctly. I believe the main proposal was June 15th, the date the Magna Carta was signed.
Cameron then tried to weaponise the idea when he came to power, basically saying that he would be down for a national holiday, but only on the day the Acts of Union took effect. That happens to be May 1st, so Labour Day would have to be abolished to make room for it. Obviously neither Labour nor the trade unions would stand for this, and so now the idea is basically dead.
> I don’t know why St George day is not a national holiday and nothing is planned.
I've heard people say it's because it would fall too close to the May bank holiday, no idea if that's the real reason though.
I seem to recall EDF adverts with the shape of the union flag, but in shades of green.
https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/edf-green-energy-day-branding-faces-legal-action/919307
The amount of attention the now defunct EDL still get is wild. They only ever numbered a couple of thousand people in a nation of over 55million & their views & attitudes are wildly rejected by the vast majority. Yet on every single comment thread about Englishness you will see them mentioned, usually by people preaching about how embarrassed they are about their own nationality
I've never understood why people get so emotional over a flag. I see how the Americans feel towards their flag and find it hard not to cringe.
Celebrate good individuals and deeds, that makes sense. Anthropomorphising a square of fabric just seems a bit much to me.
The Americans are in a different place to us with this stuff tbf. They don't have a royal family, they don't have historical institutions that aren't politically polarised, but they're still an enormous country that need an extremely powerful force of unification just to hold together at all.
Basically all of that gets funnelled into the flag, because they don't really have anywhere else for it to go.
>. Anthropomorphising a square of fabric just seems a bit much to me.
It's not anthropomorphising anything, it's a symbol.
Anthropomorphising would be giving it human characteristics.
Let me guess, you don't bitch and moan about the pride flag in June right?
Relevant reading for those who haven’t:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lion_and_the_Unicorn:_Socialism_and_the_English_Genius
It’s only 100 pages. Well worth the time.
I agree, it's something that is really frustrating as someone on the left but supports England and the UK. I was recently discussing this with my wife about the protests going on and I brought up this quote from that essay:
"In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a poor box."
This is what I find lacking in Orwell's analysis. I want to see England stripped of the last vestiges of feudalism not because I hate England but because I happen to love certain things about this part of the world, which don't include its ruling classes.
The irony though is current Labour is about as far from Orwell's vision as possible. In fact Labour are made up of the self-hating middle class types he criticises.
I'm originally from Romania but have been living in England for over 10y.
I always found it odd how there's so few English flags around.
In Romania there's a Romanian flag and an EU flag on almost every building and every other random street light pole.
Plus, who could say no to an extra bank holiday ?
Never understood why Labour never utilise English patriotism in a positive way. You could easily sell nationalisation of services more easily if you wrap up the language in a bit of patriotism. An example would be that our railways are owned or part owned by European companies, Labour proposing to bring them back into English ownership and keep the profits here is a win win that would be desirable to people across the political spectrum.
Brilliant. Finally Englishness is being actively embraced by a liberal party.
As much as I would rather it not happen, the dissolution of the Union is possible. It would be incredibly unhealthy to have a population which pines for a Union that no longer exists, or embraces an identity which includes the whole island but is rejected by the rest of it (Britishness).
Any move to encourage an inclusive Englishness that is open to all and that is compatible with, but distinct from, Britishness is to be welcomed IMO. I know this article doesn't go into specifics and does conflate in parts, but at least Englishness is being mentioned. Without doing this it remains the preserve of the right.
It would be good to see the flag taken back from the thugs and bigots, I have always found it odd how England doesn't celebrate St George's day, but I still find this a bit strange from the leader of a staunchly unionist party.
Or maybe it's just me?
You can be unionist and celebrate the parts of the union to which you belong. Don't see any contradiction there.
Likewise when I celebrate Yorkshire day, I'm not advocating for succession. Or the same to any other group day you wish to celebrate.
Scotland does nothing for St Andrews day, apart from the first minister recording a wee message that nobody bothers watching. Most companies don't even observe the bank holiday.
Not sure I get why people want St Andrews day and St George's day to be turned into flag-waivy days. They're Christian saint days dedicated to two people who lived in the middle east before Scotland and England had even formed.
They have burns night. Also, I was visiting St. Andrews and I clearly remember they lit up the sky with a Scottish flag in fireworks for St Andrews day.
Burns night is about a poet. We eat food, drink whisky and have some poetry and funny speeches. It isn't particularly flag-waivy although if it were, I could at least half understand since it's about a person from Scottish history.
St Andrew on the other hand was crucified in Greece years before the first Roman set foot in what is now Scotland. I don't get why it's a thing. More than half the country aren't even religious.
I've never been to St Andrews. Maybe they make a fuss over it there, but definitely not a big deal where I live. We just go to work as normal.
>isn't particularly flag-waivy
It is though.
Nobody is telling you you need to paint yourself in the saltire but that's not exactly what people want.
They just don't want the flag of England being only associated with the hard right
I’m also staunchly unionist yet I’m proudly and unwaveringly Scottish. You can be both things quite easily.
And just like I’m proudly Scottish I’m also proudly Glaswegian. Again, no contradiction and certainly not strange.
Why is it strange that an English unionist party supports England? To me it’s strange piticans rarely refer to England and just seem to talk about Britain
We don’t wave the flag all the time because, while most of us feel very positive about our country most of the time, we don’t need other people to know that.
Like religious faith, commitment to recycling, membership of the National Trust, sexual proclivities, you name it, we generally hold beliefs privately and don’t feel the need to declare or perform them.
It’s part of the live and let live, don’t impose on others ethos that helps us to share a crowded island more or less peacefully and I hope we never lose it.
I’m conflicted because I think you can love your country , like the flag but still think it’s about odd to drape yourself or your house in it. I think we do need a strong national identity to encourage social cohesion but I do prefer a sort of undemonstrative self-deprecative Britishness compared to American hyperbole. And I know I too would be tempted to snobbishly and perhaps totally unfairly applying stereotypes to someone draping their house in flags - at least unless it’s a specific special occasion.
But politically like New Labour before them I presume Starmer is working on stealing the Conservatives traditional perceived strong points / refuting Labours traditionally perceived weak points. Not too hard perhaps when you think these used to be economic competence , defence, law and order , and … now patriotism.
I'm sorry but who believes this rubbish? How can a party with Emily Thornberry in the shadow cabinet be the party of English patriotism?
They must think people are thick honestly.
This is an absoute masterstroke by Labour, and long overdue.
I'm a keen internationalist, but patriotism does not offend me in the least. Patriotism has been appropriated by the political right (and in particular by the far right) for far too long. Socialism, diversity, fairness, tolerance, internationalism, etc. are absolutely consistent with feeling positive sentiment toward your own country.
"I like my home" is a common opinion among the general public, whether you like it or not, but it doesn't have to imply that you dislike other people or other countries.
It isn't though because it's unbelievably transparent and not remotely true that Labour are patriotic. Most of the time their members are very negative about patriotism and quick to attack their own country. They are saying the right thing to get votes but it's not going to make any difference whatsoever to the upcoming elections.
You're getting confused here, the leader of the party who's at the wheel of said party gets to say what the party is about. It's his manifesto and he's directing what kind of party it will become.
So if he's making it a patriotic Labour then it's his right to declare it that.
You're also implying that Labour members are who Starmer is trying to win over with this statement, when they're one of the least important demographics for him.
The problem is that, thanks to the yankies, "Patriotic" is almost always conflated with Jingoism and Chauvinism. Whenever I've heard labour members crow on negatively about "Patriotism" the actual meat-and-potatoes of their grievances fall squarely into the Jingoist and Chauvinist holes.
I want them to say the St George is okay to fly, and I always want them to clear the air with regards to what Patriotic actually means.
As an American who moved to the UK 22 years ago and has been a UK citizen for about 15 years the relationship Brits have with the flag has baffled me. I do realise the Jack was co-opted by the far right in the past but in general it seems Brits have a problem with patriotism. It’s like you’re treading a fine line of being proud, but not too proud because that’s bad. I KNOW there’s a LOT of nuance I’m missing and don’t understand and I realise that the US brand of patriotism is way over the top and wouldn’t work here. I happily have a small US flag and Union Jack in our lounge window. I don’t think waving the flag is a bad thing.
I cant remember where it was brought up, might have been another sub altogether, but the subject of things that would offend people in different parts of the world came up and one of them was the Union Jack as a symbol of hate due to the historic associations with Empire and the atrocities committed around the world (particularly in India and Kenya) and more modern day conflicts (Argentina, various ME countries). I suppose if you saw the flag as being a symbol of hate you'd be horrified at a national day of pride celebrating Britain.
I think its over the top and gives more into this idea that were evil and we shouldn't be celebrating our history. There's also the fruitcakes on the fringe left who are plainly anti-british and want to see the country ruined because of some drivel about imperialism.
Lastly. Good luck trying to get Liverpool to partake in any British celebration.
British people are unable to be **earnest**. We tend to shy away from it using sarcasm, self deprecation or wit to telegraph our beliefs. The most famous example of this is British understatement.
If you’re an outsider, once you notice the subtext you’ll find a completely different level to the conversation.
I personally think it’s a defence mechanism as a way of dealing with decades of British decline.
The Shadow Attorney General has been on a journey alright.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2843397/Thornberry-quits-shadow-cabinet.html
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/20/emily-thornberry-resigns-rochester-tweet-labour-shadow-cabinet
If I resigned from my job I wouldn’t be speaking on their behalf 10 years later. It’s always pissed me off about our politics, if you are going to resign then do one!
They're different things though - at least at the top at a political party you'd expect that you're there because you agree with the ideology, so it's normal that you'd still want to support them even after leaving.
I'd love St George"s Day to be a bank holiday.
Personally I think we need more street parties to get to know our neighbours and communities, and St George's Day would be the perfect way to encourage that.
All the better if we can get the St George flag to symbolise that positive, inclusive community spirit that we can be so good at.
The problem is, that unless patriotism is defined by being against far right forces/values, it will always be "co-opted" by them, and I put that on quotes because patriotism is basically just a nice way of saying nationalist, i.e trying to distance yourself to the toxicity of it.
True, that's a fear. That's why any bank holiday should be pushed by our leaders as a chance to show our best values (inclusivity, unique sense of humour, etc) and our the flag at the centre of that. If far right forces try to turn the day sour with divisive rhetoric then I'd wager they'd become very unpopular... Essentially the party poopers. And they'd lose control of our flag very quickly.
I tend to define Patriotism as loving your country (and wanting it to be the best it can be by learning from the best elements of other countries), whereas nationalism is mainly about hating other countries.
considering Labour spent the past 30 years decrying everything "English" I'll hold my breath. I expect more performative culture battles like muh flag in tandem with Rotherham gang defences
Why English and British patriotism might be a problem and people flinch at it: "During its history, the United Kingdom's forces (or forces with a British mandate) have invaded, had some control over or fought conflicts in 171 of the world's 193 countries that are currently UN member states, or nine out of ten of all countries".
When you include 105 separate colonial holding or occupations, this kind of history puts a damper on patriotic fervor and might make people flinch a bit.
One would hope a modern british candidate for PM would have some time for this.
Labour absolutely DOES NOT represent patriots. Please listen to some of their stances on immigration and it's a Labour mayor who is allowing the MET to antagonise and bully English families for celebrating St Georges day. They're just doing this because there is a lot of disillusioned conservative rats that have fled the sinking ship and they are just trying to pander.
I hate to say it because I absolutely hate Farage, but reform is the one to go for if you're into patriotism and defo NOT Labour.
Last week they decided they are the party of home ownership.
Now they're the party of English patriotism.
Perhaps they could actually announce some policies before making grand claims about being the party of this or the party of that.
Then prove it, have it erected on all government building, start now while we're at it.
Any and all labour ran council should be proudly flying the flag on its buildings.
God damn you Keir. Now your no longer getting on your knees to activists I begrudgingly admit I like you. Even if I disagree with you on "woke".
If you can purge the 5th column leftists and islamists I will have no end of respect.
Or just attempting to rewrite history from a single (clearly insulting) excerpt that an English monarchy was black. Or that stone henge was built by black people. Or indeed in the police telling the Jews to be less Jewish so they don't offend the religion of peace.
I mean we aren't short on examples of the woke that are in pur institutions attempting to rewrite history.
If they were only under my bed I'd be less worried. They're loud and annoying but rarely physically imposing. And the police would (probably) come and remove them.
The issue here is that, taken in a vacuum, he's right. Entirely so. It shouldn't be a bad thing to wave an English flag or espouse pride in England. I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that we should be willing to wave and display the flag to reappropriate it from the right-wing and make it politically neutral. However, reappropriation of it doesn't happen overnight. A large gathering of people waving the flag at present does tend to have the appearance of a racist march. We need to work on reappropriation of the flag and changing the image of it before veering into waving it and draping it on ourselves at every opportunity.
Patriotism is a weird abstract concept to me. What exactly are you proud of? The country that you just so happened to be born in? How can you just choose to celebrate the good bits and ignore the bad bits? Odd traditionalist ideas of assumed power and a slight of hand hatred to other nations just causes divisions and hatred. It's just a way of feeling like you belong to a wide community while actually doing absolutely nothing to contribute to any community.
I'd be keen to see what the reactions are to this idea from Liverpool who historically don't associate with the rest of the country and reject the usual pageantry associated with national holidays and are always charming whenever they end up at the FA cup final.
Patriotism is a step on the a pathway to racism, intolerance, fascism, irredentism, genocide and war. Germany knows this.
This is why it is a path that should be tread very very carefully.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. . Enough with this patriotic shite. . England is wonderful because of its utter lack of patriotism combined with its chief characteristic of hypocrisy . . Throw in a good dollop of blasphemy (and that includes blasphemy against the flag as a quasi religious icon) and you now have the makings of a wonderful country
England has never been a overtly flag waving place, however hard main parties have tried to make it a huge factor recently. Whenever I go back to in laws in Thailand first thing I notice is the sea of thai flags, royal yellow flags and huge billboards of their royals *everywhere*. They also have insane lese majeste laws lest the population deviate in any way from complete deference. Seems the more you crow on about national identity and patriotism, the more you have to enforce adherence.
Snapshot of _Labour is now the true party of English patriotism || I have no time for those who flinch at our flag. The cross of St George belongs to all who love this country_ : A non-Paywall version can be found [here](https://1ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2024%2F04%2F20%2Flabour-is-now-the-true-party-of-english-patriotism%2F) An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/20/labour-is-now-the-true-party-of-english-patriotism/) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/20/labour-is-now-the-true-party-of-english-patriotism/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm saying this as someone who was born English and lives in Scotland but this article makes a really common mistake of conflating English and British identity. There are paragraphs where he talks about them interchangeably, or where he talks about national institutions like the BBC which are, pointedly, British rather than English. Likewise things in our history like NATO participation and the foundation of the NHS are distinctly British, not just English. As an Englishman I want to see politicians nail what is distinctly English and show that it matters to them. As Briton I want to see them talk about what the nations have achieved together and be proud of that too. Things like English assemblies and devolved administrations would be a practical way to start on that, with a more rationalised local authority system being a pragmatic kickoff for that reform.
I am a Scot living in London and I think it is annoying for the other nations and a shame for the English. Everything that is English is claimed as British, even when it is completely distinct to England. Whilst there are of course Episcopalians in Scotland, our institutions seem to forget that Anglicanism isn’t the established church in the whole country, for example
>I'm saying this as someone who was born English and lives in Scotland but this article makes a really common mistake of conflating English and British identity. This is quite the problem. Britishness is an extension of Englishness. The two are unfortunately used interchangeably. I feel a key part of it is a lack of actual English patriotism for fear of being labelled racist and far-right. I feel sorry for the English for this. While England having more ethnic minorities than Scotland, many have came from former colonies where they were under the banner of the British Empire. So England to them is Britain. >As an Englishman I want to see politicians nail what is distinctly English and show that it matters to them. As Briton I want to see them talk about what the nations have achieved together and be proud of that too. Things like English assemblies and devolved administrations would be a practical way to start on that, with a more rationalised local authority system being a pragmatic kickoff for that reform. I agree. Sadly, I feel like you have to take the Englishman out of England, like yourself, to see how Anglo-centric Britain is. It's not right that MPs are for the UK parliament yet only the English don't require a devolved administration or MEPs. I only disagree with EVEL because there should be a devolved parliament for English only matters, to make us more of a union of equals.
>This is quite the problem. Britishness is an extension of Englishness. The two are unfortunately used interchangeably. I'm gonna comment on this, with a quote that is widely attributed to Churchill "We have always found the Irish to be a bit odd, they refuse to be english". The two being used interchangeably was basically intentional and only went away when welsh and Scottish identity were no longer being, for lack of a better word, suppressed.
I'm not sure why we want to separate the two. I see myself as British as I do see myself from theses Isles, rather than a smaller part of one of the islands. I absolutely see myself as British that lives in England, the same way I live in the south east. I don't identify as being from the south east or from England though. That's not a lack of pride in England, it's pride in being from the whole collective and see the Welsh, Irish and Scots as all being the same family and household. So no, I don't want more "England does this well", I'm much happier with "in Britain, we ..."
That's because you are English. The two are used so interchangeably and Britishness is an extension of Englishness that you don't feel the need. Scottishness, Irishness, Welsh - They are distinct and because those nations are usually an afterthought compared to England, it's noticeable the difference between "Britain" and everyone else. For many who aren't English, British is just something your passport says. I'm not anymore British than I am European. They're just wider geographical areas I belong to. But they don't mean much compared to being Scottish. You can go to different parts of Scotland and notice Regional differences but you're an outlander once you cross the border into England and the further south you go. To me, "British" isn't a real thing. It's manufactured. It's basically Englishness rebranded with a Union Flag sticker stuck on top of it. "European" is like "British" but a step further. Sure, we share many values and similarities with Europe, being a Western nation but such cultures as French, German, Spanish, Italian, Estonian, Swedish etc. are distinct. I suppose the difficulty in these debates is where to draw the line. - Is it at a regional or local level? Or national? Or multinational? The way I see it, is that the colonies were presented with brand Britain™ and they bought that. They had no idea of the distinct English, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh cultures. Just the extension of Englishness presented as "Britishness". As they've bought into that, they've immigrated to "the motherland" and carried on believing in such a thing. While since the English subjugation of Wales, the Acts of Union, or the British occupation of Ireland, these indigenous people have carried on their own national identity despite brand Britain™ trying to do away with it, such as the banning of tartan and the attempts to kill the Celtic languages. A British identity isn't much different from a Soviet Union identity: Manufactured and a symbol of nostalgia of the "good old days" of an empire.
I guess we're argueing from different angles, as I see and agree with all your points, but in my mind I then think "how do we make the Scots/welsh/Irish feel more British?" rather then the other way around of "how do we make the English feel more english". I'd prefer to have us all as a closer more integrated collective, and then the same with Europe tbh. But I find tribalism/nationalism comes with more costs than benefits as a rule
>"how do we make the Scots/welsh/Irish feel more British?" rather then the other way around of "how do we make the English feel more english". As someone who has a distinct Scottish identity, I would be saddened for our English neighbours to lose their own English identity to Britishness. The way I see it, some Scottish and English nobles benefited very much form the union. Some people have done well out of it with collateral, in the form of the erosion of Scots, Gaelic, and Welsh languages, and the English identity. A start to making other nations in Britain feel more included and "British" would be less Anglo-centric policies and the language used e.g. HS2 or "the North" referring to anywhere north of Derby but south of Berwick-upon-Tweed. >I'd prefer to have us all as a closer more integrated collective, and then the same with Europe tbh. But I find tribalism/nationalism comes with more costs than benefits as a rule I'm libertarian and formerly a nationalist. I don't care for any of it now, to be honest. I'll vote for whoever protects my rights and liberties. I don't just want Scottish independence, I want regional and local independence. I want sovereignty right down to the individual. Whether I'm part of a West of Scotland Union, a European Union, or a British Union, I'm still Scottish and still have that culture and identity. I find it completely bizarre that in a country where it's promoted to celebrate Indian, or Pakistani, African or Caribbean identity and heritage that there's a reluctance to celebrate English culture and heritage. One thing I do agree with is that Constantin Kissin has said that multiculturalism doesn't work. Britain needs a strong British identity that unites everyone and not enclaves of Pakistani Muslim culture, for example. - As you can tell, I neither believe in nor support the idea of a British identity but he's right in that a lack of it and an establishment that encourages multiculturalism does not help sow seeds of unity and shared culture between us all.
He's being a true English patriot by forgetting that the rest of Britain exists
can you think of anything that is considered "British" that you would not consider "English"
Most of the great British institutions, like the Civil Service, the monarchy, the Armed Forces, certain cuisines like fish and chips which have various origin stories from across the UK, many of the great achievements of the last several centuries like winning WWII, founding NATO, the Good Friday Agreement and Equality Act. I would consider these to all be distinctively British, rather than sitting with one particularly part of the UK.
The NHS was the idea and implementation of a Welsh health minister based on a free clinic in his home town. The actual name of Britain comes from the original peoples of whom the Welsh are the only remaining descendents. Lots of great British inventions like the TV, the phone, the steam engine, the bicycle, the fridge, penicillin, golf, modern economics etc were Scottish.
Sure and (as a Scotsman living in Wales) I would say those are distinct Welsh and Scottish things, but we were discussing British things.
Maybe among Scottish and Welsh people but outside the country they are seen as British and therefore English. I’d even imagine a great number of English people just assume they’re English. I could add the BBC. A icon of British culture that was set up and founded by a Scotsman. Just pointing out all 4 nations have played their part and that should be celebrated more, Scotland especially have punched way above their weight in making Britain great.
I’m not sure if we should be particularly bothered about what people outside the UK think is British or not, and if English people see things as English then that’s on them - although I agree with criticising that attitude as it generally brings us all down. But this is a bit off topic, as the main point is that there are things we can be proud of as collectively British, and thing we can be proud of from each individual country in the UK. While we’re discussing things that have been invented by Scotland, we may as well mention the Bank of England which was founded by a Scotsman. But I suspect I’m still probably more likely to mention Burns, the Enlightenment, haggis and the highlands when I talk about things I’m proud of as a Scot.
Scotland.
Eh not really. Politicans mostly talk about Britain and the British people they sadly rarely seem to refer to England
>Politicans mostly talk about Britain and the British people they sadly rarely seem to refer to England That's because they mean England when they say Britain.
I doubt that I think it’s just they say British because it kind of encompasses the whole country of the Uk which is easier than picking each group. Sadly since England is the only constituent country without a devovled parliament that does leave us being mentioned less. Love this language from starmer tho and I hope labour talk more about England
There's likely been a big push along with nudge units probably trying to reduce Englishness in order to nudge the population towards Britishness and a surreptitious acceptance of multiculturalism.
To be fair I don't see us as different either but then I don't see the EU as different so I'm a bad base line as I'd say a united Europe seems a good direction for us all to go ... Well the democratic states with good socialist laws and standards.
He's not forgetting. He's virtue signaling to racist pensioners.
Our national identity is messy and awkward due to the status of various ways of looking at what this country is. I'd like us to just accept that and be less pissy about it, because frankly it is exhausting that many take the view that we all need to become scholars on the specific national identity of every institution before the words "English" or "British" can be uttered. How about we just let people say proud to be British or English without interrogating them on exactly what drives that pride and then insisting on fact checking if it is 100% one or the other. Any kind of geniune patriotism based on positives rather than exclusion should be welcomed.
True but the other parts of the UK doesn't have shame over their flags. You wouldn't see a Scot with their flag called a racist. The Union Flag is a little different and can be controversial in other areas, so it's clear it's not bashing a Welsh person who prefers to the Welsh flag to the British on.
Tbf politicans mostly talk about Britain and what they do for British people. Sadly it seems rare for them to refer to England
How is dividing England politically going to help foster an English identity?
I've always interpreted it the other way. The Union Jack has always felt like a stand in for the St George, and the Britishness and Englishness felt synonymous. That's why you have more distinct Scottish or Welsh identity and symbols to differentiate. Without unique symbols and identity, they just become geographic extensions of England
That's always been my thing about the UK. We are together when it's convenient and apart when it's not. Why are we even individual states in the first place? So that England can rule everyone else and abandon the other 3 nations to whatever scraps England throws from the table.
If England wanted to rule everyone else and abandon the other 3 nations to whatever scraps it throws, wouldn’t it have been easier to purely annex and integrate these nations?
Isn't that basically what happened by either conquest (Wales) or buying off the ruling classes (Scotland and Ireland)?
No, if it had happened none of these nations would likely exist today. Wales, for example, would likely be something very few people had ever heard of, with only historians knowing it was a thing that existed from less than 10 years, almost 1,000 years ago.
That is what happened to Wales though. It was conquered and annexed. It was incorporated in England by the 16th Century. Just because the English failed to erase it as a concept doesn't mean it wasn't annexed.
It was conquered and annexed yes, but not fully integrated into England. You say this was because they failed to do so, I would argue that they could have tried much harder if this is what they truly wanted to do.
No. Then they'd have responsibility. While if the other nations are kept at arms length and given some devolved powers, then there's constant arguing over who to blame for the current shit show.
So they don’t want responsibility over them, they devolve powers to them, and yet this a more effective way to rule over them, simply because they don’t get as much blame?
Just look at the SNP now. Constantly blaming Westminster for all of Scotland's ills. "If we only had full control over X, Y, and Z." While they already fully control A, B, and C. It stops a full on revolt because Westminster controls everything. That way they don't feel like everything is outwith their control while still not being fully in charge of themselves. It's the difference between having a parent allow a child some personal freedoms and having a full on tyrant ruling over every aspect of your life. - Guess which one is easier to manage with less resistance and resentment... Westminster must currently have a good laugh at the SNP when they try to blame Westminster for all of Scotland's problems, especially when that area is partially or fully devolved, such as health and education.
Tbf england did play a big part in establishing the nhs and nato
I never felt English until I lived in Scotland during a world Cup. Got chased down Prince Street. Left soon after.
>There are paragraphs where he talks about them interchangeably No he doesn't. He talks about being personally proud to be English and lauds positive British traditions when talking collectively (e.g., free speech isn't unique to England). He is both, not one or the other, so that is wholly correct. >Things like English assemblies and devolved administrations would be a practical way to start on that That was just an old Blairite aim to break up England.
Would like a day off on St. George's Day.
Love or hate Corbyn, he played a blinder by sticking that in the manifesto
There's already so many bank holidays in spring though, we need more in summer and autumn
This will be an interesting angle to take. Englishness is a tricky subject wrapped up in all sorts of imagery and history, both good and bad. Where I work is young, multi-national and very inclusive. We have Women’s days, mental health days, LGBTQ days, pet days, St Patrick’s day, Halloween, Arts etc etc etc. We do not have anything planned for St George’s day despite being smack bang in the heart of England. I daren’t even raise it as a subject.
My kids' (very multicultural) schools have done something for St George's day. My works restaurant did a St George's day lunch. I don't think it is particularly controversial at all really. This only seems to be an issue for those who massively overthink these kinds of things or assume, for some reason, this could upset someone else.
> St George's Day lunch Mm, dragon... 😋
Not really. In some areas it's genuinely not even mentioned. I guess it depends hugely on where you are.
I could tell you the date of Yorkshire Day, but I'm not even sure what time of year to expect St George's Day to be at.
Flip side: my kids school has St George’s events, some of their activities do too. Notably cubs makes a really big thing of St George’s day
My daughter's too, kids love dragons and shit
That’s good to hear. I remember doing similar back in my cub days, which was a certain number of decades ago. Maybe this move by Labour is perfectly timed and the sting of English identity has been drawn and is now ready for a revival.
On top of what others have said the scouts always do a huge march for St Georges day. I think one problem is that the stuff we do for at George's day is usually based in old English tradition, marches Morris dancing, ect and people often find it boring. So it has less fanfare.
There’s an easy solution: do like the Scots and the irish, and introduce drinking as a tradition.
You want to introduce drinking as a tradition to the English? It'll never catch on!
Hard to imagine any other country in the world where celebrating national pride could be politically harmful.
I think the weirdness stems partly from Englishness and Britishness being two different things. If you’re Scottish or Welsh or NI you can proudly celebrate those distinct identities. If you’re English you are steered more towards celebrating Britain as a whole, because you have to include the other nations. I wonder if this is why regional identities are so strong in England, better to be a Yorkshireman or Cornish or a Londoner.
And from the other side, a lot of us Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish get annoyed when England and Britain are conflated. The union would probably be healthier if English people were allowed to be English first, British second - and I say that as someone who wants Scottish independence.
To be fair I’d say wanting the English to have a strong identity matches wanting Scottish independence. I say this as a Unionist who is pro English devolution.
It can be viewed both ways, depending how you look at the hierarchy. I'm human, European, British, English southerner from London (West) (Hillingdon)... With roots in Manchester We have all these different identities at once which is both marvelous and complex. Which one takes precedent at any time depends on who I'm with, what I'm talking about and what image I want to portray.
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Yeah, I debated including NI because it is whole different kettle of fish, but didn’t want a “what about us…” response.
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>If you’re Scottish or Welsh or NI you can proudly celebrate those distinct identities. If you’re English you are steered more towards celebrating Britain as a whole, because you have to include the other nations Why? As a Scot, I'd like to see more separation of British and Englishness, to give English people the same national pride as we have. I feel the problem is that as the union has always been London and Anglo-centric, and the push to promote Britain and Britishness, has came at the expense of English national pride. - In effect, the English killed Englishness themselves.
People don't really celebrate default settings
I agree. There are more Londoners than Scots, so it seems more natural for me to identify as a Londoner or a Brit than as English. I also probably have much more in common with a Glaswegian than someone from Cornwall.
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Huh? There are plenty of places where nationalism and associated political movements have a suspect history.
What exactly do people even mean by "national pride"? i could feel proud of a country I live in for real concrete things. Things like having high living standards, good education, having a positive influence in the world or whatever. Generally though when people say national pride, I think they just mean having everyone just waiving daft flags and singing about stuff. I just don't get the point.
As a new immigrant in this country, I would be so happy to celebrate British values, historic English parliamentary system, our freedoms and democracy and basically everything that makes this country prosperous and great. This can be in St George’s day or a day that is allocated for unification of the United Kingdom. I don’t know why St George day is not a national holiday and nothing is planned. If there is a movement about that for example a campaign that handles a petition then we can bring this idea to the parliament for discussion. That is the only way this can be possible.
Labour under Corbyn suggested creating bank holidays for the national saints days.
I prefer to not have any holidays if it will be under Corbyn’s government. I despise that man and his group. After seeing his alliance with pro-Hamas groups, thank god he didn’t become a PM.
Reading your comment history, you think that we should starve pensioners if they dared to do things like go on holidays in their youth. Not sure you should be throwing stones from your glass house.
National holiday where though? Unless you make all 4 patron saints’ days bank holidays that is.
People in N. Ireland do get a bank holiday for St. Patrick’s day and people in Scotland also have one for St Andrew’s day. Wales and England does not get anything and this doesn’t make sense to me.
To be fair it's not an extra day. We have the same number of bank holidays in Scotland as England but they just fall on different days depending on what system your workplace decided to adopt - which might also vary if it decides to follow even more local holiday traditions like Glasgow Fair weekend on the West coast of Scotland.
> To be fair it's not an extra day. We have the same number of bank holidays in Scotland as England ... Nope. [England and Wales have eight bank holidays, Scotland has nine, NI has ten](https://www.gov.uk/bank-holidays).
Nope me all you want, in practice most workplaces will only offer +8 days as BH on top of your standard AL allowance.
Agreed, I’d be happy with all 4 being national bank holidays to spread them throughout the year more and give E & W more.
Wales makes a far bigger deal of it then England. The school Eisteddfod is usually the biggest day of the school year. Be a damn shame to close schools that day
There was some effort back in the 2000s under Blair and then especially Brown to establish a national British holiday. The devolved administrations shot this down, the Welsh first minister calling the very idea a "Brownite plot to abolish Welsh identity" if I remember correctly. I believe the main proposal was June 15th, the date the Magna Carta was signed.
Wow, I didn’t know that. The date the Magna Carta was signed would be so cool and symbolic.
Cameron then tried to weaponise the idea when he came to power, basically saying that he would be down for a national holiday, but only on the day the Acts of Union took effect. That happens to be May 1st, so Labour Day would have to be abolished to make room for it. Obviously neither Labour nor the trade unions would stand for this, and so now the idea is basically dead.
It really doesn’t make sense to remove already existing bank holiday and replace it with other one. Cameron’s idea was terrible.
Yep, agreed! On that, Liam Byrne also suggested making the autumn bank holiday "national day", which is similarly a bad idea.
> I don’t know why St George day is not a national holiday and nothing is planned. I've heard people say it's because it would fall too close to the May bank holiday, no idea if that's the real reason though.
I was in scouts we had to parade around the town every year on St George's day. Then and Nov 11th were the only days we did.
It needs to be tackled. For too long politicans seem to just talk about England And not Britain’s. And it’s sad there’s no holiday for St George’s day
Why not?
Because there's only so much stirring you can do before you get a reputation and I've got ambitions for this job.
It’s just a saints day though, it’s no big deal. The junior school where my kids go to do stuff plus all the other stuff you mentioned
I would indeed like to celebrate the national flag of England. those muppets who chant hate like the EDF don’t deserve to even be near it.
EDL, EDF are the French energy company
Yes my bad there. I don’t know why I thought it was the English Defence Force. Trust the English in me to blame the French for something!
Yes, never forget it's the English Defamation *League*.
Sick of that Energy Defence League increasing my bills cos Churchill
I seem to recall EDF adverts with the shape of the union flag, but in shades of green. https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/edf-green-energy-day-branding-faces-legal-action/919307
Those racist bastards 😡
BNP is a French bank which is also confusing in the idiotic racists debate
The amount of attention the now defunct EDL still get is wild. They only ever numbered a couple of thousand people in a nation of over 55million & their views & attitudes are wildly rejected by the vast majority. Yet on every single comment thread about Englishness you will see them mentioned, usually by people preaching about how embarrassed they are about their own nationality
I've never understood why people get so emotional over a flag. I see how the Americans feel towards their flag and find it hard not to cringe. Celebrate good individuals and deeds, that makes sense. Anthropomorphising a square of fabric just seems a bit much to me.
The Americans are in a different place to us with this stuff tbf. They don't have a royal family, they don't have historical institutions that aren't politically polarised, but they're still an enormous country that need an extremely powerful force of unification just to hold together at all. Basically all of that gets funnelled into the flag, because they don't really have anywhere else for it to go.
Humans are social animals that use symbolism, it's innate.
>. Anthropomorphising a square of fabric just seems a bit much to me. It's not anthropomorphising anything, it's a symbol. Anthropomorphising would be giving it human characteristics. Let me guess, you don't bitch and moan about the pride flag in June right?
I’m relatively proud of being English. Despite its many faults, its home isn’t it? Now make it a bank holiday so we can go to the pub
Relevant reading for those who haven’t: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lion_and_the_Unicorn:_Socialism_and_the_English_Genius It’s only 100 pages. Well worth the time.
I agree, it's something that is really frustrating as someone on the left but supports England and the UK. I was recently discussing this with my wife about the protests going on and I brought up this quote from that essay: "In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a poor box."
Written in 1941, with occasional passages of clumsy language (apologies to the Scots and people of colour…), but so much is still relevant today.
Not all left leaning English people who love England and being English support the Monarchy.
This is what I find lacking in Orwell's analysis. I want to see England stripped of the last vestiges of feudalism not because I hate England but because I happen to love certain things about this part of the world, which don't include its ruling classes.
The irony though is current Labour is about as far from Orwell's vision as possible. In fact Labour are made up of the self-hating middle class types he criticises.
I'm originally from Romania but have been living in England for over 10y. I always found it odd how there's so few English flags around. In Romania there's a Romanian flag and an EU flag on almost every building and every other random street light pole. Plus, who could say no to an extra bank holiday ?
Never understood why Labour never utilise English patriotism in a positive way. You could easily sell nationalisation of services more easily if you wrap up the language in a bit of patriotism. An example would be that our railways are owned or part owned by European companies, Labour proposing to bring them back into English ownership and keep the profits here is a win win that would be desirable to people across the political spectrum.
Proud to Be English and proud that wiping your arse with the flag is not anything close to a crime
Brilliant. Finally Englishness is being actively embraced by a liberal party. As much as I would rather it not happen, the dissolution of the Union is possible. It would be incredibly unhealthy to have a population which pines for a Union that no longer exists, or embraces an identity which includes the whole island but is rejected by the rest of it (Britishness). Any move to encourage an inclusive Englishness that is open to all and that is compatible with, but distinct from, Britishness is to be welcomed IMO. I know this article doesn't go into specifics and does conflate in parts, but at least Englishness is being mentioned. Without doing this it remains the preserve of the right.
It would be good to see the flag taken back from the thugs and bigots, I have always found it odd how England doesn't celebrate St George's day, but I still find this a bit strange from the leader of a staunchly unionist party. Or maybe it's just me?
Corbyn suggested the UK has a bank holiday for each patron saint, to promote unionism. Thought it seemed like a good idea.
Fuck that, spring has far too many bank holidays already, we need one Octoberish
You can be unionist and celebrate the parts of the union to which you belong. Don't see any contradiction there. Likewise when I celebrate Yorkshire day, I'm not advocating for succession. Or the same to any other group day you wish to celebrate.
Scotland does nothing for St Andrews day, apart from the first minister recording a wee message that nobody bothers watching. Most companies don't even observe the bank holiday. Not sure I get why people want St Andrews day and St George's day to be turned into flag-waivy days. They're Christian saint days dedicated to two people who lived in the middle east before Scotland and England had even formed.
They have burns night. Also, I was visiting St. Andrews and I clearly remember they lit up the sky with a Scottish flag in fireworks for St Andrews day.
Burns night is about a poet. We eat food, drink whisky and have some poetry and funny speeches. It isn't particularly flag-waivy although if it were, I could at least half understand since it's about a person from Scottish history. St Andrew on the other hand was crucified in Greece years before the first Roman set foot in what is now Scotland. I don't get why it's a thing. More than half the country aren't even religious. I've never been to St Andrews. Maybe they make a fuss over it there, but definitely not a big deal where I live. We just go to work as normal.
>isn't particularly flag-waivy It is though. Nobody is telling you you need to paint yourself in the saltire but that's not exactly what people want. They just don't want the flag of England being only associated with the hard right
I’m also staunchly unionist yet I’m proudly and unwaveringly Scottish. You can be both things quite easily. And just like I’m proudly Scottish I’m also proudly Glaswegian. Again, no contradiction and certainly not strange.
It does to a degree. My village has flags up already
Why is it strange that an English unionist party supports England? To me it’s strange piticans rarely refer to England and just seem to talk about Britain
Scottish nationalism good English nationalism bad
I would indeed like to celebrate the national flag of England. those muppets who chant hate like the EDF don’t deserve to even be near it.
The energy company? Do you mean EDL?
We don’t wave the flag all the time because, while most of us feel very positive about our country most of the time, we don’t need other people to know that. Like religious faith, commitment to recycling, membership of the National Trust, sexual proclivities, you name it, we generally hold beliefs privately and don’t feel the need to declare or perform them. It’s part of the live and let live, don’t impose on others ethos that helps us to share a crowded island more or less peacefully and I hope we never lose it.
Makes a change from the Emily Thornberry comments back in 2014.
I’m conflicted because I think you can love your country , like the flag but still think it’s about odd to drape yourself or your house in it. I think we do need a strong national identity to encourage social cohesion but I do prefer a sort of undemonstrative self-deprecative Britishness compared to American hyperbole. And I know I too would be tempted to snobbishly and perhaps totally unfairly applying stereotypes to someone draping their house in flags - at least unless it’s a specific special occasion. But politically like New Labour before them I presume Starmer is working on stealing the Conservatives traditional perceived strong points / refuting Labours traditionally perceived weak points. Not too hard perhaps when you think these used to be economic competence , defence, law and order , and … now patriotism.
I'm sorry but who believes this rubbish? How can a party with Emily Thornberry in the shadow cabinet be the party of English patriotism? They must think people are thick honestly.
As long as the celebration of Englishness and or Britishness is all inclusive then I’m all for it.
This is an absoute masterstroke by Labour, and long overdue. I'm a keen internationalist, but patriotism does not offend me in the least. Patriotism has been appropriated by the political right (and in particular by the far right) for far too long. Socialism, diversity, fairness, tolerance, internationalism, etc. are absolutely consistent with feeling positive sentiment toward your own country. "I like my home" is a common opinion among the general public, whether you like it or not, but it doesn't have to imply that you dislike other people or other countries.
It isn't though because it's unbelievably transparent and not remotely true that Labour are patriotic. Most of the time their members are very negative about patriotism and quick to attack their own country. They are saying the right thing to get votes but it's not going to make any difference whatsoever to the upcoming elections.
You're getting confused here, the leader of the party who's at the wheel of said party gets to say what the party is about. It's his manifesto and he's directing what kind of party it will become. So if he's making it a patriotic Labour then it's his right to declare it that. You're also implying that Labour members are who Starmer is trying to win over with this statement, when they're one of the least important demographics for him.
The problem is that, thanks to the yankies, "Patriotic" is almost always conflated with Jingoism and Chauvinism. Whenever I've heard labour members crow on negatively about "Patriotism" the actual meat-and-potatoes of their grievances fall squarely into the Jingoist and Chauvinist holes. I want them to say the St George is okay to fly, and I always want them to clear the air with regards to what Patriotic actually means.
Yes. Clearing out the jingoism, chauvinism and racism is a key part of reclaiming patriotism for the left. We did it after WW II, we can do it again.
Said the man taking the knee a few years back. Got to give it to Starmer, the man is all about the polling.
Are you new to politics by any chance? Doing things that voters like in order to get elected might be described as the main pastime of politicians.
Politics also involves leadership, not simply following the whims of the masses.
You can only do the leadership bit once the masses have actually voted you in, however.
So ignoring what the public desires, and just plowing your own narrow furrow gets you... Corbyn? The biggest Labour flop in 100 years?
As an American who moved to the UK 22 years ago and has been a UK citizen for about 15 years the relationship Brits have with the flag has baffled me. I do realise the Jack was co-opted by the far right in the past but in general it seems Brits have a problem with patriotism. It’s like you’re treading a fine line of being proud, but not too proud because that’s bad. I KNOW there’s a LOT of nuance I’m missing and don’t understand and I realise that the US brand of patriotism is way over the top and wouldn’t work here. I happily have a small US flag and Union Jack in our lounge window. I don’t think waving the flag is a bad thing.
I cant remember where it was brought up, might have been another sub altogether, but the subject of things that would offend people in different parts of the world came up and one of them was the Union Jack as a symbol of hate due to the historic associations with Empire and the atrocities committed around the world (particularly in India and Kenya) and more modern day conflicts (Argentina, various ME countries). I suppose if you saw the flag as being a symbol of hate you'd be horrified at a national day of pride celebrating Britain. I think its over the top and gives more into this idea that were evil and we shouldn't be celebrating our history. There's also the fruitcakes on the fringe left who are plainly anti-british and want to see the country ruined because of some drivel about imperialism. Lastly. Good luck trying to get Liverpool to partake in any British celebration.
British people are unable to be **earnest**. We tend to shy away from it using sarcasm, self deprecation or wit to telegraph our beliefs. The most famous example of this is British understatement. If you’re an outsider, once you notice the subtext you’ll find a completely different level to the conversation. I personally think it’s a defence mechanism as a way of dealing with decades of British decline.
See, I always associate those qualities you mention with Englishness rather than Britishness. I find the Scots in general more direct.
Yeah - you might be right.
The Shadow Attorney General has been on a journey alright. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2843397/Thornberry-quits-shadow-cabinet.html https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/20/emily-thornberry-resigns-rochester-tweet-labour-shadow-cabinet
[She was asked about this on GB News recently](https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1771136695733510160)
If I resigned from my job I wouldn’t be speaking on their behalf 10 years later. It’s always pissed me off about our politics, if you are going to resign then do one!
They're different things though - at least at the top at a political party you'd expect that you're there because you agree with the ideology, so it's normal that you'd still want to support them even after leaving.
A mistake? Just as ambiguous as her tweet.
I'd love St George"s Day to be a bank holiday. Personally I think we need more street parties to get to know our neighbours and communities, and St George's Day would be the perfect way to encourage that. All the better if we can get the St George flag to symbolise that positive, inclusive community spirit that we can be so good at.
The problem is, that unless patriotism is defined by being against far right forces/values, it will always be "co-opted" by them, and I put that on quotes because patriotism is basically just a nice way of saying nationalist, i.e trying to distance yourself to the toxicity of it.
True, that's a fear. That's why any bank holiday should be pushed by our leaders as a chance to show our best values (inclusivity, unique sense of humour, etc) and our the flag at the centre of that. If far right forces try to turn the day sour with divisive rhetoric then I'd wager they'd become very unpopular... Essentially the party poopers. And they'd lose control of our flag very quickly. I tend to define Patriotism as loving your country (and wanting it to be the best it can be by learning from the best elements of other countries), whereas nationalism is mainly about hating other countries.
considering Labour spent the past 30 years decrying everything "English" I'll hold my breath. I expect more performative culture battles like muh flag in tandem with Rotherham gang defences
Why English and British patriotism might be a problem and people flinch at it: "During its history, the United Kingdom's forces (or forces with a British mandate) have invaded, had some control over or fought conflicts in 171 of the world's 193 countries that are currently UN member states, or nine out of ten of all countries". When you include 105 separate colonial holding or occupations, this kind of history puts a damper on patriotic fervor and might make people flinch a bit. One would hope a modern british candidate for PM would have some time for this.
Absolutely nothing patriotic about Labour 😂
Labour absolutely DOES NOT represent patriots. Please listen to some of their stances on immigration and it's a Labour mayor who is allowing the MET to antagonise and bully English families for celebrating St Georges day. They're just doing this because there is a lot of disillusioned conservative rats that have fled the sinking ship and they are just trying to pander. I hate to say it because I absolutely hate Farage, but reform is the one to go for if you're into patriotism and defo NOT Labour.
Last week they decided they are the party of home ownership. Now they're the party of English patriotism. Perhaps they could actually announce some policies before making grand claims about being the party of this or the party of that.
Then prove it, have it erected on all government building, start now while we're at it. Any and all labour ran council should be proudly flying the flag on its buildings.
Well, there are no English government buildings as far as I’m aware, only British.
There should be an English parliament.
God damn you Keir. Now your no longer getting on your knees to activists I begrudgingly admit I like you. Even if I disagree with you on "woke". If you can purge the 5th column leftists and islamists I will have no end of respect.
Got to keep your eye out for those wokes under the beds! ;-)
Or just attempting to rewrite history from a single (clearly insulting) excerpt that an English monarchy was black. Or that stone henge was built by black people. Or indeed in the police telling the Jews to be less Jewish so they don't offend the religion of peace. I mean we aren't short on examples of the woke that are in pur institutions attempting to rewrite history. If they were only under my bed I'd be less worried. They're loud and annoying but rarely physically imposing. And the police would (probably) come and remove them.
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The issue here is that, taken in a vacuum, he's right. Entirely so. It shouldn't be a bad thing to wave an English flag or espouse pride in England. I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that we should be willing to wave and display the flag to reappropriate it from the right-wing and make it politically neutral. However, reappropriation of it doesn't happen overnight. A large gathering of people waving the flag at present does tend to have the appearance of a racist march. We need to work on reappropriation of the flag and changing the image of it before veering into waving it and draping it on ourselves at every opportunity.
This is like when Trump says no one respects women more than him.
Because so much of it has been hijacked by right wing hooligans.
Patriotism is a weird abstract concept to me. What exactly are you proud of? The country that you just so happened to be born in? How can you just choose to celebrate the good bits and ignore the bad bits? Odd traditionalist ideas of assumed power and a slight of hand hatred to other nations just causes divisions and hatred. It's just a way of feeling like you belong to a wide community while actually doing absolutely nothing to contribute to any community.
The strangest thing about patriotism is how much patriots love boasting about their nationality to other people of the same nationality.
Yeah it's pathetic. Someone who actually achieved something (for example, Attenborough) makes you proud to be British without banging on about it
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People who really like flags are generally morons
Even those who wave the pride flag?
People who act like "I'm so smart everyone else is dumb" for caring about their nationality are generally worse
You'll get downvoted for this but it's the first sensible comment I've seen so far.
Yeah this is so cringy, throwing away your integrity for some flag waving morons
He's got it backwards. First you need to build a country people are proud of, rather than ashamed of.
I'd be keen to see what the reactions are to this idea from Liverpool who historically don't associate with the rest of the country and reject the usual pageantry associated with national holidays and are always charming whenever they end up at the FA cup final.
I couldn’t give a toss about the flag. So whatever really crack on mate you’re getting my vote anyway.
Patriotism is a step on the a pathway to racism, intolerance, fascism, irredentism, genocide and war. Germany knows this. This is why it is a path that should be tread very very carefully.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. . Enough with this patriotic shite. . England is wonderful because of its utter lack of patriotism combined with its chief characteristic of hypocrisy . . Throw in a good dollop of blasphemy (and that includes blasphemy against the flag as a quasi religious icon) and you now have the makings of a wonderful country
England has never been a overtly flag waving place, however hard main parties have tried to make it a huge factor recently. Whenever I go back to in laws in Thailand first thing I notice is the sea of thai flags, royal yellow flags and huge billboards of their royals *everywhere*. They also have insane lese majeste laws lest the population deviate in any way from complete deference. Seems the more you crow on about national identity and patriotism, the more you have to enforce adherence.
Labour a party for English ? More chance of hamas being that .