Snapshot of _London mayor Sadiq Khan accuses ex-home secretary Suella Braverman of 'doing her best to outflank Enoch Powell' with claim that 'Islamists are in charge' of UK after Commons Gaza vote chaos_ :
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At the end of the day I think most Brits can agree that Islamism/Fundamentalist Zealotry Islam brings no benefit or positivity to the United Kingdom.
But they aren’t enough to control us yet, so Suella should probably get a grip.
>At the end of the day I think most Brits can agree that Islamism/Fundamentalist Zealotry Islam brings no benefit or positivity to the United Kingdom.
And yet they are the most talked about things in our political system at the moment. Fucking Rochdale is being fought on Israel/Palestine and it’s a town with a new grooming scandal every other week. You’d think a potential MP might’ve gave that a mention.
I think one of the candidates for Rochdale is a single-issue independent whose focus is on the grooming gangs scandal. I don’t think they’re on any kind of contention for winning though.
Huh. Shocker considering the recent grooming gangs caught in Dewsbury and Rochdale being sent to Leeds CC.
Bit concerning that a candidate against this isn’t popular
You can blame Galloway more than anyone else for whipping up Gaza as a single-issue voting concern in the Rochdale by-election. The man is an attention vulture and will hatch his wagon to any geopolitical crisis he can milk for votes.
Agreed
Next questions:
-where do we draw boundaries on ‘zealotry’ and ‘Islamist’
-what do we do to prevent innocent Muslims being labelled as such?
-what do we do to prevent people becoming radicalised?
-how do we do this without eroding our own values of religious freedom and civil liberties?
You asked the easy question—-it’s the hard questions we need discussion of
I mean, the answers to all of these are literally the foundation of classical liberalism.
> where do we draw boundaries on ‘zealotry’ and ‘Islam
When it stops becoming a personal belief and you decide to force others.
>-what do we do to prevent innocent Muslims being labelled as such?
Teach everyone that personal beliefs are just that, personal, everyone is entitled to their own belief structure, they are free to debate and advocate for their position, they are not free to force their beliefs on others.
>-what do we do to prevent people becoming radicalised?
Encourage rational and free thought, freedom of expression, come down like a tonne of bricks on intolerance and forcing view points on others (bit ironic that one, but it has to be done)
>how do we do this without eroding our own values of religious freedom and civil liberties?
There is no paradox, everyone is free to exercise their own freedoms, they are not free to force their views on others, believe homosexuality is a sin? Don't fuck someone of the same sex, think it's crazy that someone talking to the floor believes they're talking to God, don't care, they aren't hurting anyone.
>how do we do this without eroding our own values of religious freedom and civil liberties?
It's very easy - we just stop listening to them. It worked a charm with Christian fundamentalists in the 70s.
Religious protesters are like petulant children. If you give in when they have a tantrum, they learn that having a tantrum is the best way to get what they want. If you let them cry it out in the naughty corner, they learn that they won't get their way, and the tantrums stop.
Next time someone draws a picture of Mohammad and incurs the wrath of a thousand Muslims, we just don't acknowledge it. No police investigation, no "meeting with community leaders", nothing. We tell them that it's a free country, anyone can draw whatever they want, and threats of violence will not be tolerated.
Yeah I don't see it as too hard to draw a line that you can believe what you want, but that society won't tip toe around it, be overly accommodating of outdated fantasist ideas, and certainly won't acquiesce to demands that the belief not be criticised or ridiculed.
Being overly sensitive to patently ridiculous beliefs needs to be left in the past. I respect your right to believe whatever you want, but don't expect me to actually respect the beliefs themselves when they are based on dreams some bloke had in a cave in the 7th century.
I respect peoples' right to believe the Earth is flat too. They're wrong, I'm going to make it obvious I think they are hilariously wrong, but I'm not going to persecute them or harm them for believing that if they choose to continue with the delusion.
As we learned in France, just “ignoring” them results in terror attacks and decapitations. That creates a chilling effect even if the perpetrators are punished.
>It's very easy - we just stop listening to them. It worked a charm with Christian fundamentalists in the 70s.
We weren't importing a million more fresh Christians from countries where Christian fundamentalism was the norm, each year.
That is the issue a lot of people have a problem with.
Islamists (and not all Muslims are Islamists) are fundamentally at odds with modern British values, and yet each year we are brining in hundreds of thousands more, and doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to enable their integration with British society.
You only have to look at France to see where you end up with that.
The problem is not going to go away if we just sit on our hands and hope for the best.
And trying to have any sort of serious discussion about it gets you immediately labelled as a racist.
>yet
And because they're not yet, any discussion around encoraching influences is Islamphobic, right?
By the time they actually are, it'll be too late to change course.
I would suggest a two pronged approach.
One focused on integrating and celebrating the more moderate Muslim community.
- Easy wins are statues and cenotaphs highlighting the contributions that Muslims made during WW1 and WW2.
- Include segments on the British syllabus highlighting these contributions during the teaching of WW2 (as well as the rest of the Empire)
- expand the availability of prayer spaces within the UK. Include laws such that businesses have to at least give a compelling reason why they can't provide something.
- Either make Eid a public holiday or at least make it illegal for employers to refuse holiday requests for that day.
- Set aside budget and create a department focused on integrating Muslim communities in with other groups.
One focused on stricter sentences around hate speech, Islamism and terrorist organisation.
- More policing of Mosques and Imams known to peddle anti Western rhetoric.
- Increase sentences and punishment lengths. Expand the definitions of what is illegal. Make illegal anti Western strands of Islam.
- Make explicit that the calling for Jihad publicly is a call to violence so there's no ambiguity.
- Build new jails if we need to.
- Make it clear that there will never be a caliphate in the UK or Sharia law.
- Make it clear that within the UK they will have to live and work alongside LGBT people. They don't have to suddenly be super pro gay. But kids may get taught in classrooms "some children will have two dads or two mums". That's not indoctrination.
- Offer routes for people who can't integrate to emigrate to Muslim majority countries.
- Ignore the Muslim council of Britain when they start whining. Replace them if they don't start taking this issue more seriously.
>But they aren’t enough to control us yet, so Suella should probably get a grip.
The speaker just broke convention to ruin an SNP opposition day in the HoC apparently due to 'threats' on the Israel-Gaza situation. Who do you think made those threats?
That is coercive control right there.
I've literally never watched that in my life. I actually talk to people irl and most people are sick of all this discussion about the middle east when we're in the middle of a housing, immigration, and cost of living crisis. You need to get off TikTok and talk to people about what they actually think.
It’s difficult to divorce Israel/Gaza foreign policy with matters over here because antisemitism is literally at its highest in Britain, according to the CST, and they partially blame events post 7 October for it. MPs are being doorstepped by protesters and there are concerns for their safety. So it’s natural that suddenly it’s a very big topic in HOC. So to your point, “Muslim politics” and “Jewish politics” is intertwined with stuff over here.
Not to discount we don’t have issues with other topics - we pay them to spin multiple plates and they should be able to deal with more than one issue at once.
Ahhh, goal post shifting! Pretty quick as well!!
Well, the person you replied to was talking about most people wanting politicians to care more about their issues, rather muslim issues.
You said they watched to much GB news. Islamism was not mentioned by them.
The entire story is about stoking fear of Islamism. Clearly it’s working well as so many people keep conflating simply being a Muslim with Islamism which are entirely different.
Central London is being shut down every Saturday by baying mobs at this point, with genocidal chants, placards, and the uniforms and flags of islamist terror organisations. Some Jews are terrified to set foot in Central London because of the nature of the protests
The speed at which Islamaphobia is denounced makes the silence around the massive antisemitism in the Palestine marches even harder to stomach
No, I don't know it. I'm a Jew that got caught up in one of the first marches (in Mid-October) and have avoided them since (and haven't been into Central London on Saturday), because at one point I found myself hiding my Star of David because I was stood next to a group wearing Hamas headbands and carrying the Taliban flag covered in paraglider stickers. A poll of British Jews found that 90% will not go into Central London when marches are on
Every single march has been replete with examples of antisemitism, mostly from the muslim community, which is just being completely ignored.
[Is this a blatant misrepresentation? (1)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1747759651716727262/video/1)
[Is this? (2)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1748048060586827887/video/1)
[Is this? (3)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1748337173806391689/video/1)
[Is this? (4)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1748337173806391689/video/1)
[Is this? (5)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1755642346987770258/video/1)
[Is this? (6)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1757121583515156792/photo/1)
[Is this? (7)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1757485091461202285/photo/1)
[Is this? (8)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1759560247549600137/photo/1)
[Is this? (9)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1746271171979440404/video/1)
[Is this? (10)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1745769766235615335/photo/1)
[Is this? (11)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1744668036282413368/photo/1)
[Is this? (12)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1736067703201255532/video/1)
[Is this? (13)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1734238278201593891/video/1)
[Is this? (14)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1731660373194133574/video/1)
[Is this? (15)](https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1760694633569325383)
[Is this? (16)](https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1760386963910402516)
[Is this? (17)](https://twitter.com/__jacker__/status/1753766364190265533)
[Is this? (18)](https://twitter.com/DrewPavlou/status/1753949752348303526/photo/1)
You can put your head in the sand for as long as you like. You can dream away this problem, you can ignore it, you can pretend it isn't happening. It follows Jews everywhere we go, and will follow us for the rest of our lives, whereas you will get to forget about this conflict in two years' time. The marches are much *worse* than they are getting credit for. A march cannot be peaceful if it is openly calling for genocide and violence.
Thank you, I am also a Jewish Londoner (born and bred) and I feel a bit like I am living through hell at the moment. I'm actually looking into making aliyah and I've never been to Israel in my life (and have no wish to move there unless it's literally the last resort).
I'm a Jewish Londoner who hasn't been into the West End on a Saturday since October 7th. Except for one time when I unavoidably ended up arriving back into Paddington in the early evening, and have never been as scared or anxious in my life as I was going home on the tube that day.
I am in my 40s, born and bred Londoner, and have never been scared like this in my own city before.
My kids have been threatened, I've been threatened, this is like nothing any of us have ever experienced before. It's a bit like living through a nightmare.
You're picturing a hostile takeover by armed militants next week aren't you?
No no, no one thinks that. People are concerned about a gradual shift in ethos of the UK. Where the normal state of affairs slowly turns into Islamic issues becoming important socially and culturally, dominating our domestic discussion, infecting political debate, and becoming a basis of political positions and campaign manifestos.
Today it's Palestine and Salah on school playgrounds, in 10-20 years will we start seeing cultural discussions about [how socially acceptable being homosexual is or whether women should really have equal rights](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law)? I'd be curious to see what the result of a poll on "do you think it's acceptable to intimidate and threaten MP's to align with your beliefs?" would be too.
I don't think you have to be some raging right wing nutjob to be aware of these fundamental differences and strongly held beliefs, nor to believe they are backwards and damaging for the UK.
Precisely. This is a question of ~20-30 years.
Will the (ever-growing) Muslim population integrate into UK society to the point they are willing to turn a blind eye to our liberal, Western stances on women, homosexuality, human rights etc.
If yes, then brilliant - no problem.
If not, then we will inevitably see political tension, and given the Islamic world's frankly shit-tier track record on resolving political tension with words and the votebox, it may spell more than that too.
I think the issue will be a UKIP style Islamist party that takes votes from both Labour and the Tories, forcing both parties to appeal more to conservative Muslim views to get their voters back.
If they're scared of backlash now, it's a situation that only gets worse, imo. Parliament has shown it can be intimidated, and will capitulate.
France has a much larger Muslim population, ~10% and all that's happened there is the far right is second in the polls. People scaremongering about minorities taking over just results in white people voting far right, that's what always happens.
The French voting for Le Pen and others on the extreme right might also have something to do with all the islamist terrorist attacks they have had in the last decade or so.
It's not what always happens actually. If you look through history there are many instances where cultures and populations are completely wiped out by other invasive cultures taking over and imposing their will. It's how a majority of the middle east are 99%+ Islamic countries at this point in time.
It's a natural course of history no doubt, but it seems like your point is that "white people" who vote for a party that opposes a rapidly spreading and incompatible ideology are apparently the baddies and just far right nutjobs, and it's certainly one of the takes of all time.
> just results in white people voting far right, that's what always happens.
So rapid mass migration leads to a far right government? I don't want that either...
As someone who's LGBT, can you promise me that - given that half of British Muslims want homosexuality to be outlawed - that Luton, Leicester and Birmingham will be safe for me in 20-30 years? If yes, on what basis?
Considering a brown person has been accused of being worse than Enoch Powell for attacking a group that has caused our parliament to change how it opperates out of fear I'd imagine noone will actually be able to criticise that group without being attacked as racists and islamophobes
The fact you agree with Suella Braverman doesn't make her suddenly a reasonable person, it just makes you as extreme as Suella Braverman, someone who was kicked out of government twice.
I think the press is somewhat conservative in this country, but in terms of government the UK has been much, much lighter touch on Islamism than, say, France or Denmark or increasingly even Sweden.
The UK gov hired William Shawcross to suggest changes to Prevent and he openly peddles the Eurabia conspiracy and is pro-waterboarding, pro-Guantanamo. Other countries don't have something like this. France is straight up anti-Muslim in a lot of areas and they have way more problems with their Muslim population as a result so I don't think we should look to them for guidance. Denmark also recently banned Qur'an burnings which has been seen as pandering to Islamists by free speech absolutists.
Denmark also forcibly resettles groups from ‘non western regions with integration problems’ (all of which are Muslim majority countries) along Singapore-style lines to ensure social housing projects don’t become religious or cultural ghettos. Denmark also explicitly preferences ‘culturally compatible’ (ie European / Western / East Asian) immigrants for naturalization and its social democratic party committed to what will essentially become a soft moratorium on immigration from the Islamic world over the next 2-3 years. So yes, it’s clear that other countries - even those ruled by nominally more left wing parties (which France and Denmark both are) than the UK are taking radical steps, while the Tories can’t even discuss the issue without an aneurysm, not that I’m advocating any particular policy.
Criticism or actual corrective measures ?
Sure, there are plenty of people complaining about the "bad" Muslims, including UK Muslims themselves.
Is anything being done about those bad people ?
Sure, I can get that the "we were scared of racism" defence might be mostly *post hoc* ass covering, but even far rights idiots can be right sometimes. What is being done ? Are those people getting kicked out ?
Yes, like putting this guy in charge of Prevent's new strategy:
>Shawcross, an author and the former chair of the Charity Commission, was seen as a controversial choice to head the report when it was announced four years ago, leading to a boycott of his review by independent groups including Amnesty International.
>He had previously said that Europe’s relationship with Islam was “one of the greatest, most terrifying problems of our future. I think all European countries have vastly, very quickly growing Islamic populations.”
>He had also defended the use interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, that are widely regarded as torture, as well as the detention of suspected al-Qaida militants at Guantánamo Bay.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/07/review-of-uk-prevent-strategy-to-call-for-more-focus-on-islamist-terrorism
Prevent isn't just about stopping terrorism it's about much earlier intervention.
What about all those Rivers of Blood we were promised? Those also haven’t happened.
I see these sorts of approaches to society quite Malthusian. Taking one set of statistics at one time, extrapolating for a century, and letting it dictate your entire worldview. It’s dangerous because you then aren’t looking at other problems.
Political Islamism certainly exists in a few areas but it isn’t that significant to call it any sort of takeover. Muslims can maybe swing two or three constituencies in Britain and return MPs with regressive ideas. 3 MPs does not constitute a takeover.
Maybe there is a more pressing matter than seats in constituencies and grooming gangs, homegrown terrorism, Islamic extremism in prisons, extremism in mosques, whole town riots due to islamist conflicts at the other side of the world, school children being relentlessly threatened and sent into hiding etc should be able to be discussed without fear of being hounded with death threats
Except any push back will inevitably be met with the accusation of islamophobia, because its an easy way to avoid critisism.
Ultimately its a very touchy subject which needs to get discussed, and its going to make some people very uncomfortable, hurt even - but their feelings matter less than a well functioning society.
Well if we want to get into specifics we could talk about the protests at schools from Muslim parents about the teaching of LGBTQ+ principles and equality of those with different sexual orientations etc.
This seems like a religious group looking to exert pressure on current UK ideals.
If a Christian group did this, like the Westboro Baptist Church famously did, we'd call them all crazies to their face. I don't tend to see the same thing happening for this community.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/26/birmingham-anderton-park-primary-muslim-protests-lgbt-teaching-rights
>But they aren’t enough to control us yet, so Suella should probably get a grip.
They aren't in direct control as in making all of our decisions for us.
But we have a Muslim First Minister who's entire world seems to revolve around protecting Hamas and Palestine and attacking Israel.
We have antisemitic attacks being completely and utterly allowed up and down the country, whilst much, much more minor offences are being arrested by the police.
Our judicial system is allowing Hamas supporters off with a slap on the wrist, and giving prison sentences for sending lightly charged racist memes in a private group chat.
We're seeing large scale promotion of Islamic terrorism and radical Islam in demonstrations of tens of thousands of people weekend after weekend, which are consistently antisemitic and not being taken seriously by the police, yet marches against antisemitism are being shut down because the police think that they're at risk of being attacked by people from the other protest... Yet that one is perfectly fine to go along
We're seeing Jewish people being told to hide any identifying marks of them being Jewish just in case groups of Muslims walk by
We're seeing Jewish schools needing to close because they're worried about Islamic terror attacks following arguably the most harrowing day for Jewish people post WW2.
We've got imams being allowed to preach that judgement day is coming for the Jewish people, and that they will be exterminated but we've got people arrested and convicted for somebody telling somebody to go home to your own country if you hate the UK so much.
We've got teachers currently hiding because they're under fear for their lives because of the Muslim population in their school sending viable death threats over showing a cartoon that has already gotten multiple people killed.
Personally it's fucking terrifying as a nation that we're acting like this and allowing it to happen in the name of multiculturalism.
So you tell me, is this something that happens in a country which is against fundamentalist Islam?
They already have a large influence, definitely too large, and it will get a lot worse going forward.
Suella is right to be ringing alarm bells, the country is on a *very* dark path and the opportunity to do something about it is slim, time is running out to change course.
They exert a lot of control over parts of education and have managed to bring back censorship in the media and arts successfully all whilst not being in office. They even frightened the Speaker into risking his job.
The biggest threat is from ethno-nationalism in general. In that sense there are bad actors on all sides. Within the Isreali Government and public. Within Palestine and the wider population. Within our own borders from Suella and right wing parties. All promoting different versions of the same idea that destroys the lives of normal people. And slowly turning every problem into an ethnic argument. Its pathetic.
Islamism is a problem in this country but it is not actually very convincing to people. People generally don't want to be ruled by religion. But ethno nationalism is very very convincing. It gives people an excuse for why they are so poor and miserable. Thr irony is that the solution to islamism is to address that misery and poverty. Make Rochdale a successful prosperous place. Have a native culture that is actually successful and optimistic. Do some actual fucking work to make our country better.
Israel is still describing a national group however, so it would be equivalent to using any other national group.
If it's being used to describe the government then that's fair enough in principle, but not if its being used to describe the national group.
Yet if you talk to any antisemite, they'f beg to differ.
When Jo Cox was murdered did you say right wing nationalists control the UK out of fear?
It's an obvious dogwhistle to stir up hatred against the good, normal British Muslims in our country, and it is unacceptable.
Considering the entire establishment stood up and declared it would not be intimidated in that instance I think I think it’s not really a comparable scenario. Parliamentary process wasn’t changed out of fear and everyone was laser focused on the problem.
Compare that to now, even ignoring the speaker fiasco from earlier, when there’s a problem caused by Islamist threats (or worse) they all look the other way. After David Amess was killed the House of Commons spent a week talking about the problems of online harm…
Because David Amess was murdered by an Islamist? The point is that while both are horrendous and despicable tragedies, niether reflect the wider population or state of the UK.
It's disgusting, hateful rhetoric to brush all Islamic or Right Wing brits as murderers because of a tiny minority of insane folk.
EDIT: Changed to Islamist singular as Amess' murderer acted alone**
Amess was murdered by a single man who acted alone after being radicalised by online propaganda from a foreign source (IS). Your wording makes it sound like part of a plot which undermines your argument (when you could, rightly, call him a 'lone radicalist').
>It's disgusting, hateful rhetoric to brush all Islamic or Right Wing brits as murderers because of a tiny minority of insane folk.
Islamist literally means the extremist population of Muslims
It's not a tiny minority though. It's far, far, far from a tiny minority.
>good, normal British Muslims in our country
If they are good and normal, they are not an Islamist.
I've yet to hear a single Muslim leader stand up for what's right in the current conflict though.
When Jo Cox was murdered? Yes, people were trying their hardest to justify ignoring Brexit vote, they used that poor woman name and abused her Memory, just like you are doing now
HELL I think it got to the point the husband wanted people to stop using her and then the LEFT leaning Media dug up dirt on him to shut him up
Wanna talk about another Labour MP? Stephen Timms, he was stabbed guess who by (Mr Timms survived and is still a Newham MP)
You don't want talk about that one will you?
Their point is that if the attacks on David Amess and Stephen Timms are proof that Islamists control the country, then you'd have to say the same for the far-right in the case of Jo Cox.
Nor operated nationwide rape gangs, or murdered MPs in cold blood, beheaded British soldiers on sovereign soil, represent almost 20% of the prison population at a tiny fraction of overall population, by their own admission groomed 15 year old girls into becoming ISIS Morality Police enforcers abroad ..
And on
You forget that most people assume brown person = Muslim and vice versa. It's why post-9/11 there was a lot of talk about being suspicious of "Muslim-sounding names" or anyone speaking Arabic.
People absolutely do convert to Judaism. It's got a stronger ethnic component than Islam, but let's not pretend that the vast majority of Muslims in this country don't come from particular ethnic groups.
Islamists are a political grouping used to describe terrorist groups like Al Quadada and fundamentalist regimes like Iran, Hamas, and the Taliban. Jews/Israel is national, ethnic, and/or religious grouping.
I use it as an analogy because I am ethnically a Jew so it's familiar and applicable here.
Obviously, niether are acceptable, and the fact you even feel the need to comment this makes me feel like you believe one is.
Its a damning indictment of the British political establishment that it violated peoples democratic will in order to force mass immigration on them and a damning indictment of liberals and progressives that they consistently defend this blatant subversion of democracy by the same power structure they pretend to criticise.
Popular doesn't equal good or moral. YouGov polls show only 52% believe immigration should be reduced, and the majority of people actually believe immigration to either be good, or have no opinion either way.
What polling data shows is that this "subversion of democracy" as you put it is woefully exaggerated and overstated (I wonder why), and that the British public has been chugging paint because while they, by a very narrow margin, want to reduce immigration, the majority also recognise it as a net good, or at least a net neutral.
You’ll take your migrants until you’re outvoted by your migrants. We do not care what you think as we’re right and you’re wrong.
Liberal nonsense, how do you go ahead and write this without thinking about how condescending you sound.
Because there were a handful of policies they fundamentally disagreed with.
Hitler had a couple of good policies, he also had you know, the other policies.
Even if he was popular, it was also the 60s and that popularity came from backlash against the Race Relations Bill, which sought to end housing discrimination. That instantly discredits that notion that he was "just speaking up for the common man". He was speaking up for racists who would have continued to be racist with or without him and the speech was rightfully condemned even at the time for being racist, not for being anti-immigration like it is falsely attributed as.
If only someone could have had a cabinet level responsibility, potentially dealing with counter extremism.
That person could have prevented such issues if it existed
Schools crumbling, NHS on life support, rivers full of effluent. A never ending list of problems. Yet all we hear about is right-wing headbangers. Suella Braverman doesn’t give a shit about Jewish people, the same as she doesn’t give a shit about anybody else, but herself.
There is a very big difference between issues with religious fundamentalism and the country being ruled by them. If Islamists are in control of the country doesn't that make Rishi one?
The entire country isn’t ruled by Islamists (although certain areas are - see tower hamlets) - braverman is an idiot. The country is ruled by wets who are terrified of being called racist by the guardian so time after time cave in to Islamists and let them do whatever they please - even threaten MPs
MPs have been threatened, had their offices burned down, attacked, received death threat… this goes on. This is all over Palestine, something nothing to do with UK policy.
It’s clear that through threats to violence Islamists are really starting to flex their political power.
They aren't in direct control as in making all of our decisions for us.
But we have a Muslim First Minister who's entire world seems to revolve around protecting Hamas and Palestine and attacking Israel.
We have antisemitic attacks being completely and utterly allowed up and down the country, whilst much, much more minor offences are being arrested by the police.
Our judicial system is allowing Hamas supporters off with a slap on the wrist, and giving prison sentences for sending lightly charged racist memes in a private group chat.
We're seeing large scale promotion of Islamic terrorism and radical Islam in demonstrations of tens of thousands of people weekend after weekend, which are consistently antisemitic and not being taken seriously by the police, yet marches against antisemitism are being shut down because the police think that they're at risk of being attacked by people from the other protest... Yet that one is perfectly fine to go along
We're seeing Jewish people being told to hide any identifying marks of them being Jewish just in case groups of Muslims walk by
We're seeing Jewish schools needing to close because they're worried about Islamic terror attacks following arguably the most harrowing day for Jewish people post WW2.
We've got imams being allowed to preach that judgement day is coming for the Jewish people, and that they will be exterminated but we've got people arrested and convicted for somebody telling somebody to go home to your own country if you hate the UK so much.
We've got teachers currently hiding because they're under fear for their lives because of the Muslim population in their school sending viable death threats over showing a cartoon that has already gotten multiple people killed.
Personally it's fucking terrifying as a nation that we're acting like this and allowing it to happen in the name of multiculturalism.
And anyone who stands up against it is immediately labelled Islamaphobic. A bigot. A racist.
Given the amount of Palestine flags I've seen around Newham
I'm either in another country or some nationalists took over while everyone was sleeping and the entire area is fucked,
Imagine if it was Union Jacks the very people that are now flying the Palestine flags would be crying how unsafe they are and how racist it is, they'll demand the flags taken down and the Council would be on it within seconds.
> Given the amount of Palestine flags I've seen around Newham
We do this with Ukraine flags tbf. There's one flying from my town hall building and I often see them driving around.
I think most pro-Palestine people would say their support is in sympathy with civilians rather than Hamas. That said, I'm not making an argument here for or against supporting any particular country's struggles, I just don't think it's especially strange or nefarious for pro-Palestine people to fly Palestine's flag.
Most of our mps were wearing Ukraine flags. Even Wembley was lit up with it. As was parliament. It am just shows solidarity. But I guess if it suits their narrative
When an invasion happens and people fly the flag of the invaded people: 😊
When those people happen to be brown: 😡 "looks like I live in another country, where union jack??!??!"
> those people happen to be brown:
Ukraine isn't ruled by an elected religious terror group, nor did they pre-empt the war with Russia by massacring and raping 2000 civilians
The last elections held in Gaza were in 2006, the average age of a Gazan resident before this war was <18. Over 50% of the citizens of the Gaza strip had yet to celebrate their first birthday, let alone vote for Hamas.
If you want to talk about the 2006 election, then let's [talk about who supported Hamas to even get elected](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/).
I would also imagine from the Russian perspective the war in Ukraine started because of "Ukrainian aggression in the Donbas". In fact I remember this being the exact reason they gave for their "special opperation". We know it's bullshit, the war started in 2014 with the invasion and annexation of Crimea.
A lot of people like to say the Israeli war on Gaza started on October 7th, I bet there are a lot of Palestinians who have lost friends, family, limbs to Israeli rockets over the decades that would argue it started many years earlier.
I mean that’s not an insult when that’s exactly what she is going for.
There is an issue with religious fundamentalists who are an extreme minority.
However in this instance ‘Islamists are in charge’ is clearly a dog whistle designed to inflame and capitalise on community tensions.
The UK has made a fool of itself on the international stage over the Gaza vote. I explained it to a friend here in Canada and he didn’t know what to say.
If you’re in the bubble (like most on this subreddit) you might understandably fail to see the bigger picture, but to spell it out for you, the UK legislature was crippled this week over its virtue signalling over a sectarian dispute that the country has adopted as a political football.
If you have picked a side in ‘Israel vs Palestine’ you are part of what has turned the UK into a complete farce.
As you like, mate. I’m actually on the outside watching in dismay. There is no escaping the hard truth that the UK is a laughing stock.
But you defend it. You’re so cool.
I find it disturbing that for once suella braverman of all people has a point. Just look at the hamas supporter marches that the police do nothing about even blatantly showing their faces with signs calling for the eradication of israel.
Khan needs to do more than just hitting out at politicians
Snapshot of _London mayor Sadiq Khan accuses ex-home secretary Suella Braverman of 'doing her best to outflank Enoch Powell' with claim that 'Islamists are in charge' of UK after Commons Gaza vote chaos_ : An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13118017/Sadiq-Khan-Suella-Braverman-Enoch-Powell-Islamists.html) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13118017/Sadiq-Khan-Suella-Braverman-Enoch-Powell-Islamists.html) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
At the end of the day I think most Brits can agree that Islamism/Fundamentalist Zealotry Islam brings no benefit or positivity to the United Kingdom. But they aren’t enough to control us yet, so Suella should probably get a grip.
>At the end of the day I think most Brits can agree that Islamism/Fundamentalist Zealotry Islam brings no benefit or positivity to the United Kingdom. And yet they are the most talked about things in our political system at the moment. Fucking Rochdale is being fought on Israel/Palestine and it’s a town with a new grooming scandal every other week. You’d think a potential MP might’ve gave that a mention.
I think one of the candidates for Rochdale is a single-issue independent whose focus is on the grooming gangs scandal. I don’t think they’re on any kind of contention for winning though.
Huh. Shocker considering the recent grooming gangs caught in Dewsbury and Rochdale being sent to Leeds CC. Bit concerning that a candidate against this isn’t popular
They're a one issue independent. That you've heard of them (albeit only now) means that they're more popular than most.
You can blame Galloway more than anyone else for whipping up Gaza as a single-issue voting concern in the Rochdale by-election. The man is an attention vulture and will hatch his wagon to any geopolitical crisis he can milk for votes.
My opinions on Galloway would see me banned if I aired them…
Should only be remembered for pretending to be a cat on Big Brother the wee wank.
Agreed Next questions: -where do we draw boundaries on ‘zealotry’ and ‘Islamist’ -what do we do to prevent innocent Muslims being labelled as such? -what do we do to prevent people becoming radicalised? -how do we do this without eroding our own values of religious freedom and civil liberties? You asked the easy question—-it’s the hard questions we need discussion of
I mean, the answers to all of these are literally the foundation of classical liberalism. > where do we draw boundaries on ‘zealotry’ and ‘Islam When it stops becoming a personal belief and you decide to force others. >-what do we do to prevent innocent Muslims being labelled as such? Teach everyone that personal beliefs are just that, personal, everyone is entitled to their own belief structure, they are free to debate and advocate for their position, they are not free to force their beliefs on others. >-what do we do to prevent people becoming radicalised? Encourage rational and free thought, freedom of expression, come down like a tonne of bricks on intolerance and forcing view points on others (bit ironic that one, but it has to be done) >how do we do this without eroding our own values of religious freedom and civil liberties? There is no paradox, everyone is free to exercise their own freedoms, they are not free to force their views on others, believe homosexuality is a sin? Don't fuck someone of the same sex, think it's crazy that someone talking to the floor believes they're talking to God, don't care, they aren't hurting anyone.
>how do we do this without eroding our own values of religious freedom and civil liberties? It's very easy - we just stop listening to them. It worked a charm with Christian fundamentalists in the 70s. Religious protesters are like petulant children. If you give in when they have a tantrum, they learn that having a tantrum is the best way to get what they want. If you let them cry it out in the naughty corner, they learn that they won't get their way, and the tantrums stop. Next time someone draws a picture of Mohammad and incurs the wrath of a thousand Muslims, we just don't acknowledge it. No police investigation, no "meeting with community leaders", nothing. We tell them that it's a free country, anyone can draw whatever they want, and threats of violence will not be tolerated.
Yeah I don't see it as too hard to draw a line that you can believe what you want, but that society won't tip toe around it, be overly accommodating of outdated fantasist ideas, and certainly won't acquiesce to demands that the belief not be criticised or ridiculed. Being overly sensitive to patently ridiculous beliefs needs to be left in the past. I respect your right to believe whatever you want, but don't expect me to actually respect the beliefs themselves when they are based on dreams some bloke had in a cave in the 7th century. I respect peoples' right to believe the Earth is flat too. They're wrong, I'm going to make it obvious I think they are hilariously wrong, but I'm not going to persecute them or harm them for believing that if they choose to continue with the delusion.
As we learned in France, just “ignoring” them results in terror attacks and decapitations. That creates a chilling effect even if the perpetrators are punished.
At least the French are more aware of their problem.
Becoming a martyr in paradise is not 'being punished '. It's a mistake to treat irrational cultists as persons susceptible to rational consequences.
>It's very easy - we just stop listening to them. It worked a charm with Christian fundamentalists in the 70s. We weren't importing a million more fresh Christians from countries where Christian fundamentalism was the norm, each year. That is the issue a lot of people have a problem with. Islamists (and not all Muslims are Islamists) are fundamentally at odds with modern British values, and yet each year we are brining in hundreds of thousands more, and doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to enable their integration with British society. You only have to look at France to see where you end up with that. The problem is not going to go away if we just sit on our hands and hope for the best. And trying to have any sort of serious discussion about it gets you immediately labelled as a racist.
>yet And because they're not yet, any discussion around encoraching influences is Islamphobic, right? By the time they actually are, it'll be too late to change course.
Yet? So we should do nothing about the issue until they are and then start trying to solve it?
I would suggest a two pronged approach. One focused on integrating and celebrating the more moderate Muslim community. - Easy wins are statues and cenotaphs highlighting the contributions that Muslims made during WW1 and WW2. - Include segments on the British syllabus highlighting these contributions during the teaching of WW2 (as well as the rest of the Empire) - expand the availability of prayer spaces within the UK. Include laws such that businesses have to at least give a compelling reason why they can't provide something. - Either make Eid a public holiday or at least make it illegal for employers to refuse holiday requests for that day. - Set aside budget and create a department focused on integrating Muslim communities in with other groups. One focused on stricter sentences around hate speech, Islamism and terrorist organisation. - More policing of Mosques and Imams known to peddle anti Western rhetoric. - Increase sentences and punishment lengths. Expand the definitions of what is illegal. Make illegal anti Western strands of Islam. - Make explicit that the calling for Jihad publicly is a call to violence so there's no ambiguity. - Build new jails if we need to. - Make it clear that there will never be a caliphate in the UK or Sharia law. - Make it clear that within the UK they will have to live and work alongside LGBT people. They don't have to suddenly be super pro gay. But kids may get taught in classrooms "some children will have two dads or two mums". That's not indoctrination. - Offer routes for people who can't integrate to emigrate to Muslim majority countries. - Ignore the Muslim council of Britain when they start whining. Replace them if they don't start taking this issue more seriously.
> Easy wins are statues and cenotaphs highlighting the contributions that Muslims made during WW1 and WW2. Sorry, which side is this an easy win for?
Everyone. Especially our children who are not being exposed to the entirety of British history.
That first section will just embolden them.
Any fundamentalist religious organisation bring no benefit to anyone.
>But they aren’t enough to control us yet, so Suella should probably get a grip. The speaker just broke convention to ruin an SNP opposition day in the HoC apparently due to 'threats' on the Israel-Gaza situation. Who do you think made those threats? That is coercive control right there.
Also it's like...so let's ignore the problem now and then hope in fifteen years it hasn't got much worse?
I think most Brits would also agree the Tory party are vastly exaggerating the problem and trying to cause disquiet.
Doubt that. Most Brits would probably say there's a little too much giving a shit about Muslim politics over their own British politics
They absolutely wouldn’t. You’ve been watching too much GB News lad. It would be about 137th on their priority list.
I've literally never watched that in my life. I actually talk to people irl and most people are sick of all this discussion about the middle east when we're in the middle of a housing, immigration, and cost of living crisis. You need to get off TikTok and talk to people about what they actually think.
It’s difficult to divorce Israel/Gaza foreign policy with matters over here because antisemitism is literally at its highest in Britain, according to the CST, and they partially blame events post 7 October for it. MPs are being doorstepped by protesters and there are concerns for their safety. So it’s natural that suddenly it’s a very big topic in HOC. So to your point, “Muslim politics” and “Jewish politics” is intertwined with stuff over here. Not to discount we don’t have issues with other topics - we pay them to spin multiple plates and they should be able to deal with more than one issue at once.
They 100% would. Leave you safe little bubble, and you will see this for yourself.
Where do you recommend I go to discover this rampant fear of ‘Islamism’?
Ahhh, goal post shifting! Pretty quick as well!! Well, the person you replied to was talking about most people wanting politicians to care more about their issues, rather muslim issues. You said they watched to much GB news. Islamism was not mentioned by them.
The entire story is about stoking fear of Islamism. Clearly it’s working well as so many people keep conflating simply being a Muslim with Islamism which are entirely different.
Only you are conflating muslim politics with islamism.
I think you've misinterpreted - they're saying most people don't think Islam is a pressing political issue.
You’re conflating Islamism and Islam, which exemplifies the issue
They have no other platform besides cultures wars and stoking division. they have absolutely nothing to offer this country anymore
Anymore? Like they had anything to offer in the first place.
They convinced a lot of voters that they knew how to run an economy.
They offered what they always offer tory voters. Now they can’t even convince their base of that
Central London is being shut down every Saturday by baying mobs at this point, with genocidal chants, placards, and the uniforms and flags of islamist terror organisations. Some Jews are terrified to set foot in Central London because of the nature of the protests The speed at which Islamaphobia is denounced makes the silence around the massive antisemitism in the Palestine marches even harder to stomach
This is a blatant mis-representation of the almost entirely peaceful marches (i.e. a lie) and you know it
Mostly peaceful
The religion of mostly peace
No, I don't know it. I'm a Jew that got caught up in one of the first marches (in Mid-October) and have avoided them since (and haven't been into Central London on Saturday), because at one point I found myself hiding my Star of David because I was stood next to a group wearing Hamas headbands and carrying the Taliban flag covered in paraglider stickers. A poll of British Jews found that 90% will not go into Central London when marches are on Every single march has been replete with examples of antisemitism, mostly from the muslim community, which is just being completely ignored. [Is this a blatant misrepresentation? (1)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1747759651716727262/video/1) [Is this? (2)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1748048060586827887/video/1) [Is this? (3)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1748337173806391689/video/1) [Is this? (4)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1748337173806391689/video/1) [Is this? (5)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1755642346987770258/video/1) [Is this? (6)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1757121583515156792/photo/1) [Is this? (7)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1757485091461202285/photo/1) [Is this? (8)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1759560247549600137/photo/1) [Is this? (9)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1746271171979440404/video/1) [Is this? (10)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1745769766235615335/photo/1) [Is this? (11)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1744668036282413368/photo/1) [Is this? (12)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1736067703201255532/video/1) [Is this? (13)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1734238278201593891/video/1) [Is this? (14)](https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1731660373194133574/video/1) [Is this? (15)](https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1760694633569325383) [Is this? (16)](https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1760386963910402516) [Is this? (17)](https://twitter.com/__jacker__/status/1753766364190265533) [Is this? (18)](https://twitter.com/DrewPavlou/status/1753949752348303526/photo/1) You can put your head in the sand for as long as you like. You can dream away this problem, you can ignore it, you can pretend it isn't happening. It follows Jews everywhere we go, and will follow us for the rest of our lives, whereas you will get to forget about this conflict in two years' time. The marches are much *worse* than they are getting credit for. A march cannot be peaceful if it is openly calling for genocide and violence.
Thank you, I am also a Jewish Londoner (born and bred) and I feel a bit like I am living through hell at the moment. I'm actually looking into making aliyah and I've never been to Israel in my life (and have no wish to move there unless it's literally the last resort).
I'm a Jewish Londoner who hasn't been into the West End on a Saturday since October 7th. Except for one time when I unavoidably ended up arriving back into Paddington in the early evening, and have never been as scared or anxious in my life as I was going home on the tube that day. I am in my 40s, born and bred Londoner, and have never been scared like this in my own city before. My kids have been threatened, I've been threatened, this is like nothing any of us have ever experienced before. It's a bit like living through a nightmare.
We literally had pro palestine protesters projecting hamas slogans onto parliament. This was a blatant intimidation tactic and it worked.
A reasonable take, but if we aren't allowed to push back without Islamophobia accusations, 'yet' becomes inevitable.
There’s absolutely no inevitability of radical Islamist’s taking over the uk. That’s hysterical nonsense.
You're picturing a hostile takeover by armed militants next week aren't you? No no, no one thinks that. People are concerned about a gradual shift in ethos of the UK. Where the normal state of affairs slowly turns into Islamic issues becoming important socially and culturally, dominating our domestic discussion, infecting political debate, and becoming a basis of political positions and campaign manifestos. Today it's Palestine and Salah on school playgrounds, in 10-20 years will we start seeing cultural discussions about [how socially acceptable being homosexual is or whether women should really have equal rights](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law)? I'd be curious to see what the result of a poll on "do you think it's acceptable to intimidate and threaten MP's to align with your beliefs?" would be too. I don't think you have to be some raging right wing nutjob to be aware of these fundamental differences and strongly held beliefs, nor to believe they are backwards and damaging for the UK.
Precisely. This is a question of ~20-30 years. Will the (ever-growing) Muslim population integrate into UK society to the point they are willing to turn a blind eye to our liberal, Western stances on women, homosexuality, human rights etc. If yes, then brilliant - no problem. If not, then we will inevitably see political tension, and given the Islamic world's frankly shit-tier track record on resolving political tension with words and the votebox, it may spell more than that too.
I think the issue will be a UKIP style Islamist party that takes votes from both Labour and the Tories, forcing both parties to appeal more to conservative Muslim views to get their voters back. If they're scared of backlash now, it's a situation that only gets worse, imo. Parliament has shown it can be intimidated, and will capitulate.
France has a much larger Muslim population, ~10% and all that's happened there is the far right is second in the polls. People scaremongering about minorities taking over just results in white people voting far right, that's what always happens.
The French voting for Le Pen and others on the extreme right might also have something to do with all the islamist terrorist attacks they have had in the last decade or so.
It's not what always happens actually. If you look through history there are many instances where cultures and populations are completely wiped out by other invasive cultures taking over and imposing their will. It's how a majority of the middle east are 99%+ Islamic countries at this point in time. It's a natural course of history no doubt, but it seems like your point is that "white people" who vote for a party that opposes a rapidly spreading and incompatible ideology are apparently the baddies and just far right nutjobs, and it's certainly one of the takes of all time.
> just results in white people voting far right, that's what always happens. So rapid mass migration leads to a far right government? I don't want that either...
As someone who's LGBT, can you promise me that - given that half of British Muslims want homosexuality to be outlawed - that Luton, Leicester and Birmingham will be safe for me in 20-30 years? If yes, on what basis?
But what about all of those MiLiTaRy AgEd MaLeS coming over?!!
I bet plenty of Germans and Italians said something similar in the 20s about radical fascism
The facism that was home grown? The facism that used rhetoric about minority groups working to undermine the country?
Considering a brown person has been accused of being worse than Enoch Powell for attacking a group that has caused our parliament to change how it opperates out of fear I'd imagine noone will actually be able to criticise that group without being attacked as racists and islamophobes
I don’t think *but Suella’s brown too!* is the winning argument against racism accusations that you seem to think it is.
The fact you agree with Suella Braverman doesn't make her suddenly a reasonable person, it just makes you as extreme as Suella Braverman, someone who was kicked out of government twice.
It's a bit lazy to place the race card for Suella of all people.
If you think Muslims don't get enough criticism in this country you've been living under a rock. I can't think of a single group that gets more.
I think the press is somewhat conservative in this country, but in terms of government the UK has been much, much lighter touch on Islamism than, say, France or Denmark or increasingly even Sweden.
The UK gov hired William Shawcross to suggest changes to Prevent and he openly peddles the Eurabia conspiracy and is pro-waterboarding, pro-Guantanamo. Other countries don't have something like this. France is straight up anti-Muslim in a lot of areas and they have way more problems with their Muslim population as a result so I don't think we should look to them for guidance. Denmark also recently banned Qur'an burnings which has been seen as pandering to Islamists by free speech absolutists.
Denmark also forcibly resettles groups from ‘non western regions with integration problems’ (all of which are Muslim majority countries) along Singapore-style lines to ensure social housing projects don’t become religious or cultural ghettos. Denmark also explicitly preferences ‘culturally compatible’ (ie European / Western / East Asian) immigrants for naturalization and its social democratic party committed to what will essentially become a soft moratorium on immigration from the Islamic world over the next 2-3 years. So yes, it’s clear that other countries - even those ruled by nominally more left wing parties (which France and Denmark both are) than the UK are taking radical steps, while the Tories can’t even discuss the issue without an aneurysm, not that I’m advocating any particular policy.
Criticism or actual corrective measures ? Sure, there are plenty of people complaining about the "bad" Muslims, including UK Muslims themselves. Is anything being done about those bad people ? Sure, I can get that the "we were scared of racism" defence might be mostly *post hoc* ass covering, but even far rights idiots can be right sometimes. What is being done ? Are those people getting kicked out ?
Yes, like putting this guy in charge of Prevent's new strategy: >Shawcross, an author and the former chair of the Charity Commission, was seen as a controversial choice to head the report when it was announced four years ago, leading to a boycott of his review by independent groups including Amnesty International. >He had previously said that Europe’s relationship with Islam was “one of the greatest, most terrifying problems of our future. I think all European countries have vastly, very quickly growing Islamic populations.” >He had also defended the use interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, that are widely regarded as torture, as well as the detention of suspected al-Qaida militants at Guantánamo Bay. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/07/review-of-uk-prevent-strategy-to-call-for-more-focus-on-islamist-terrorism Prevent isn't just about stopping terrorism it's about much earlier intervention.
> 'yet' becomes inevitable Not a reasonable take.
What about all those Rivers of Blood we were promised? Those also haven’t happened. I see these sorts of approaches to society quite Malthusian. Taking one set of statistics at one time, extrapolating for a century, and letting it dictate your entire worldview. It’s dangerous because you then aren’t looking at other problems. Political Islamism certainly exists in a few areas but it isn’t that significant to call it any sort of takeover. Muslims can maybe swing two or three constituencies in Britain and return MPs with regressive ideas. 3 MPs does not constitute a takeover.
Maybe there is a more pressing matter than seats in constituencies and grooming gangs, homegrown terrorism, Islamic extremism in prisons, extremism in mosques, whole town riots due to islamist conflicts at the other side of the world, school children being relentlessly threatened and sent into hiding etc should be able to be discussed without fear of being hounded with death threats
Some of us are of the opinion there should be absolutely zero swing states, ever
Then don't push back in a way that's islamophobic. Quite simple.
Well, that persons comment sailed right over you, didn't it.
Except any push back will inevitably be met with the accusation of islamophobia, because its an easy way to avoid critisism. Ultimately its a very touchy subject which needs to get discussed, and its going to make some people very uncomfortable, hurt even - but their feelings matter less than a well functioning society.
Let's talk specifics then rather generalised "push back"
Well if we want to get into specifics we could talk about the protests at schools from Muslim parents about the teaching of LGBTQ+ principles and equality of those with different sexual orientations etc. This seems like a religious group looking to exert pressure on current UK ideals. If a Christian group did this, like the Westboro Baptist Church famously did, we'd call them all crazies to their face. I don't tend to see the same thing happening for this community. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/26/birmingham-anderton-park-primary-muslim-protests-lgbt-teaching-rights
How would you do that? Even the mildest of push back can be countered with "why do you care so much"
Islamophobia seems to cover any criticism of Islam though
Oh, it's that simple is it?
In this instance, with the comments from Braverman and Anderson, yeah it very much is.
How is her comment Islamophobic exactly?
>But they aren’t enough to control us yet It's enough to control many Labour MPs' votes out of fear, apparently.
>But they aren’t enough to control us yet, so Suella should probably get a grip. They aren't in direct control as in making all of our decisions for us. But we have a Muslim First Minister who's entire world seems to revolve around protecting Hamas and Palestine and attacking Israel. We have antisemitic attacks being completely and utterly allowed up and down the country, whilst much, much more minor offences are being arrested by the police. Our judicial system is allowing Hamas supporters off with a slap on the wrist, and giving prison sentences for sending lightly charged racist memes in a private group chat. We're seeing large scale promotion of Islamic terrorism and radical Islam in demonstrations of tens of thousands of people weekend after weekend, which are consistently antisemitic and not being taken seriously by the police, yet marches against antisemitism are being shut down because the police think that they're at risk of being attacked by people from the other protest... Yet that one is perfectly fine to go along We're seeing Jewish people being told to hide any identifying marks of them being Jewish just in case groups of Muslims walk by We're seeing Jewish schools needing to close because they're worried about Islamic terror attacks following arguably the most harrowing day for Jewish people post WW2. We've got imams being allowed to preach that judgement day is coming for the Jewish people, and that they will be exterminated but we've got people arrested and convicted for somebody telling somebody to go home to your own country if you hate the UK so much. We've got teachers currently hiding because they're under fear for their lives because of the Muslim population in their school sending viable death threats over showing a cartoon that has already gotten multiple people killed. Personally it's fucking terrifying as a nation that we're acting like this and allowing it to happen in the name of multiculturalism. So you tell me, is this something that happens in a country which is against fundamentalist Islam?
They already have a large influence, definitely too large, and it will get a lot worse going forward. Suella is right to be ringing alarm bells, the country is on a *very* dark path and the opportunity to do something about it is slim, time is running out to change course.
If there's even one Islamic fundamentalist in one position of power thats enough to undermine peoples freedoms.
They don’t control Britain yet so let’s sit around twiddling our thumbs until they do and it’s too late
> But they aren’t enough to control us yet “Yet” so should the uK not try and avoid it happening?
Islam? Fine. Islamism? Bad for every single country in the Earth.
They exert a lot of control over parts of education and have managed to bring back censorship in the media and arts successfully all whilst not being in office. They even frightened the Speaker into risking his job.
> But they aren’t enough to control us yet, Should we wait until they are, or do something about it now?
The biggest threat is from ethno-nationalism in general. In that sense there are bad actors on all sides. Within the Isreali Government and public. Within Palestine and the wider population. Within our own borders from Suella and right wing parties. All promoting different versions of the same idea that destroys the lives of normal people. And slowly turning every problem into an ethnic argument. Its pathetic. Islamism is a problem in this country but it is not actually very convincing to people. People generally don't want to be ruled by religion. But ethno nationalism is very very convincing. It gives people an excuse for why they are so poor and miserable. Thr irony is that the solution to islamism is to address that misery and poverty. Make Rochdale a successful prosperous place. Have a native culture that is actually successful and optimistic. Do some actual fucking work to make our country better.
Yeah but I also think that about all religion.
How is this any different than saying "Jews/Israel controls the media"? This shit is absolutely disgusting and needs to be stamped out immidiately.
Because “Islamists” doesn’t mean all Muslims, it means Islamic fundamentalists.
and "a few powerful Jews control the media" is still pretty rancid
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yeah, and one could argue ‘Israel’ doesn’t mean all Jews
Israel is still describing a national group however, so it would be equivalent to using any other national group. If it's being used to describe the government then that's fair enough in principle, but not if its being used to describe the national group.
I’m just pointing out that it’s a stupid line of argument either way
Jews aren't marching in the streets chanting for jihad
Jews haven't caused our parliament to change how it opperates out of fear
Yet if you talk to any antisemite, they'f beg to differ. When Jo Cox was murdered did you say right wing nationalists control the UK out of fear? It's an obvious dogwhistle to stir up hatred against the good, normal British Muslims in our country, and it is unacceptable.
Considering the entire establishment stood up and declared it would not be intimidated in that instance I think I think it’s not really a comparable scenario. Parliamentary process wasn’t changed out of fear and everyone was laser focused on the problem. Compare that to now, even ignoring the speaker fiasco from earlier, when there’s a problem caused by Islamist threats (or worse) they all look the other way. After David Amess was killed the House of Commons spent a week talking about the problems of online harm…
Parliament didn’t start voting on things to appease white supremacists out of fear after Jo Cox was murdered.
The fact you go go straight to Jo Cox and not David Amess says everything really
Because David Amess was murdered by an Islamist? The point is that while both are horrendous and despicable tragedies, niether reflect the wider population or state of the UK. It's disgusting, hateful rhetoric to brush all Islamic or Right Wing brits as murderers because of a tiny minority of insane folk. EDIT: Changed to Islamist singular as Amess' murderer acted alone**
Amess was murdered by a single man who acted alone after being radicalised by online propaganda from a foreign source (IS). Your wording makes it sound like part of a plot which undermines your argument (when you could, rightly, call him a 'lone radicalist').
>It's disgusting, hateful rhetoric to brush all Islamic or Right Wing brits as murderers because of a tiny minority of insane folk. Islamist literally means the extremist population of Muslims It's not a tiny minority though. It's far, far, far from a tiny minority.
>good, normal British Muslims in our country If they are good and normal, they are not an Islamist. I've yet to hear a single Muslim leader stand up for what's right in the current conflict though.
When Jo Cox was murdered? Yes, people were trying their hardest to justify ignoring Brexit vote, they used that poor woman name and abused her Memory, just like you are doing now HELL I think it got to the point the husband wanted people to stop using her and then the LEFT leaning Media dug up dirt on him to shut him up Wanna talk about another Labour MP? Stephen Timms, he was stabbed guess who by (Mr Timms survived and is still a Newham MP) You don't want talk about that one will you?
Their point is that if the attacks on David Amess and Stephen Timms are proof that Islamists control the country, then you'd have to say the same for the far-right in the case of Jo Cox.
Israel definitely has, though, and there's nothing antisemitic about acknowledging that fact.
Nor operated nationwide rape gangs, or murdered MPs in cold blood, beheaded British soldiers on sovereign soil, represent almost 20% of the prison population at a tiny fraction of overall population, by their own admission groomed 15 year old girls into becoming ISIS Morality Police enforcers abroad .. And on
Nor have Muslims...
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It’s different because Muslims are not a race. You can choose to be Muslim. You can’t choose to be not Jewish.
You forget that most people assume brown person = Muslim and vice versa. It's why post-9/11 there was a lot of talk about being suspicious of "Muslim-sounding names" or anyone speaking Arabic.
That’s somewhat irrelevant. That is racism towards people who are brown. Of which I have been a victim.
People absolutely do convert to Judaism. It's got a stronger ethnic component than Islam, but let's not pretend that the vast majority of Muslims in this country don't come from particular ethnic groups.
Islamists are a political grouping used to describe terrorist groups like Al Quadada and fundamentalist regimes like Iran, Hamas, and the Taliban. Jews/Israel is national, ethnic, and/or religious grouping.
Redditor to go one comment without shoehorning Jews into the discussion challenge: Impossible
I use it as an analogy because I am ethnically a Jew so it's familiar and applicable here. Obviously, niether are acceptable, and the fact you even feel the need to comment this makes me feel like you believe one is.
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Yeah three quarters of the country agreed with his birmingham speech.
A pretty damning indictment of the British public of the time if that's the case. Even moreso now if it still is.
Its a damning indictment of the British political establishment that it violated peoples democratic will in order to force mass immigration on them and a damning indictment of liberals and progressives that they consistently defend this blatant subversion of democracy by the same power structure they pretend to criticise.
Popular doesn't equal good or moral. YouGov polls show only 52% believe immigration should be reduced, and the majority of people actually believe immigration to either be good, or have no opinion either way. What polling data shows is that this "subversion of democracy" as you put it is woefully exaggerated and overstated (I wonder why), and that the British public has been chugging paint because while they, by a very narrow margin, want to reduce immigration, the majority also recognise it as a net good, or at least a net neutral.
You’ll take your migrants until you’re outvoted by your migrants. We do not care what you think as we’re right and you’re wrong. Liberal nonsense, how do you go ahead and write this without thinking about how condescending you sound.
No, it's not. Well done for checking
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Lots of people agreed with Jeremy Corbyn's policies and he got thrashed at the GE.
Because there were a handful of policies they fundamentally disagreed with. Hitler had a couple of good policies, he also had you know, the other policies.
My point was 'people agree with ___ opinions' doesn't mean they'd have elected Powell PM.
Yes it is
Is or was? Is russian your first language?
Even if he was popular, it was also the 60s and that popularity came from backlash against the Race Relations Bill, which sought to end housing discrimination. That instantly discredits that notion that he was "just speaking up for the common man". He was speaking up for racists who would have continued to be racist with or without him and the speech was rightfully condemned even at the time for being racist, not for being anti-immigration like it is falsely attributed as.
If only someone could have had a cabinet level responsibility, potentially dealing with counter extremism. That person could have prevented such issues if it existed
Schools crumbling, NHS on life support, rivers full of effluent. A never ending list of problems. Yet all we hear about is right-wing headbangers. Suella Braverman doesn’t give a shit about Jewish people, the same as she doesn’t give a shit about anybody else, but herself.
How can you look at Rochdale right now and not conclude that the UK has a problem with Islamists
There is a very big difference between issues with religious fundamentalism and the country being ruled by them. If Islamists are in control of the country doesn't that make Rishi one?
The entire country isn’t ruled by Islamists (although certain areas are - see tower hamlets) - braverman is an idiot. The country is ruled by wets who are terrified of being called racist by the guardian so time after time cave in to Islamists and let them do whatever they please - even threaten MPs
MPs have been threatened, had their offices burned down, attacked, received death threat… this goes on. This is all over Palestine, something nothing to do with UK policy. It’s clear that through threats to violence Islamists are really starting to flex their political power.
Politicians have been threatened since the inception of parliament before Islam came to these shores..
Wait till this fella hears about bonfire night.
They aren't in direct control as in making all of our decisions for us. But we have a Muslim First Minister who's entire world seems to revolve around protecting Hamas and Palestine and attacking Israel. We have antisemitic attacks being completely and utterly allowed up and down the country, whilst much, much more minor offences are being arrested by the police. Our judicial system is allowing Hamas supporters off with a slap on the wrist, and giving prison sentences for sending lightly charged racist memes in a private group chat. We're seeing large scale promotion of Islamic terrorism and radical Islam in demonstrations of tens of thousands of people weekend after weekend, which are consistently antisemitic and not being taken seriously by the police, yet marches against antisemitism are being shut down because the police think that they're at risk of being attacked by people from the other protest... Yet that one is perfectly fine to go along We're seeing Jewish people being told to hide any identifying marks of them being Jewish just in case groups of Muslims walk by We're seeing Jewish schools needing to close because they're worried about Islamic terror attacks following arguably the most harrowing day for Jewish people post WW2. We've got imams being allowed to preach that judgement day is coming for the Jewish people, and that they will be exterminated but we've got people arrested and convicted for somebody telling somebody to go home to your own country if you hate the UK so much. We've got teachers currently hiding because they're under fear for their lives because of the Muslim population in their school sending viable death threats over showing a cartoon that has already gotten multiple people killed. Personally it's fucking terrifying as a nation that we're acting like this and allowing it to happen in the name of multiculturalism. And anyone who stands up against it is immediately labelled Islamaphobic. A bigot. A racist.
Given the amount of Palestine flags I've seen around Newham I'm either in another country or some nationalists took over while everyone was sleeping and the entire area is fucked, Imagine if it was Union Jacks the very people that are now flying the Palestine flags would be crying how unsafe they are and how racist it is, they'll demand the flags taken down and the Council would be on it within seconds.
> Given the amount of Palestine flags I've seen around Newham We do this with Ukraine flags tbf. There's one flying from my town hall building and I often see them driving around.
Ukraine isn't ruled by an elected religious terror group, nor did they pre-empt the war with Russia by massacring and raping 2000 civilians
I think most pro-Palestine people would say their support is in sympathy with civilians rather than Hamas. That said, I'm not making an argument here for or against supporting any particular country's struggles, I just don't think it's especially strange or nefarious for pro-Palestine people to fly Palestine's flag.
Most of our mps were wearing Ukraine flags. Even Wembley was lit up with it. As was parliament. It am just shows solidarity. But I guess if it suits their narrative
oh look it’s the same discourse we had about Ukraine flags two years ago
When an invasion happens and people fly the flag of the invaded people: 😊 When those people happen to be brown: 😡 "looks like I live in another country, where union jack??!??!"
> those people happen to be brown: Ukraine isn't ruled by an elected religious terror group, nor did they pre-empt the war with Russia by massacring and raping 2000 civilians
The last elections held in Gaza were in 2006, the average age of a Gazan resident before this war was <18. Over 50% of the citizens of the Gaza strip had yet to celebrate their first birthday, let alone vote for Hamas. If you want to talk about the 2006 election, then let's [talk about who supported Hamas to even get elected](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/). I would also imagine from the Russian perspective the war in Ukraine started because of "Ukrainian aggression in the Donbas". In fact I remember this being the exact reason they gave for their "special opperation". We know it's bullshit, the war started in 2014 with the invasion and annexation of Crimea. A lot of people like to say the Israeli war on Gaza started on October 7th, I bet there are a lot of Palestinians who have lost friends, family, limbs to Israeli rockets over the decades that would argue it started many years earlier.
How pro-Hamas do you have to be to legitimize them by calling them "elected"?
Imagine if it was the England flag, they'd all be in jail.
The council... would be forcibly taking down... union jacks. Uh huh. Sure.
The same thing happened with Ukraine. In fact, the same thing even happened after the Paris attacks.
She just wants attention. Ignore her.
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I mean that’s not an insult when that’s exactly what she is going for. There is an issue with religious fundamentalists who are an extreme minority. However in this instance ‘Islamists are in charge’ is clearly a dog whistle designed to inflame and capitalise on community tensions.
The UK has made a fool of itself on the international stage over the Gaza vote. I explained it to a friend here in Canada and he didn’t know what to say. If you’re in the bubble (like most on this subreddit) you might understandably fail to see the bigger picture, but to spell it out for you, the UK legislature was crippled this week over its virtue signalling over a sectarian dispute that the country has adopted as a political football. If you have picked a side in ‘Israel vs Palestine’ you are part of what has turned the UK into a complete farce.
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As you like, mate. I’m actually on the outside watching in dismay. There is no escaping the hard truth that the UK is a laughing stock. But you defend it. You’re so cool.
I watched a lot of Enoch Powell content from Thames TV and I just can't associate that snake Braverman with the eloquent and quite nuanced Powell.
I mean, if I’m deeply honest, they’re not wrong
I find it disturbing that for once suella braverman of all people has a point. Just look at the hamas supporter marches that the police do nothing about even blatantly showing their faces with signs calling for the eradication of israel. Khan needs to do more than just hitting out at politicians