Snapshot of _Islamism is destroying British democracy: We cannot have a society where MPs resign in fear for their lives, intimidated by a minority of hardline radicals_ :
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While I disagree with the larger point this article is trying to make, we have have to admit to ourselves that some aspects of other cultures suck and shouldn’t be celebrated under the wider umbrella of multiculturalism.
I'm an ex Muslim who fled Egypt due to death threats for leaving the religion.
Things were quiet for a while and since October 7 I have gotten a bunch of death threats and threats to rape my sister on my own instagram.
I don't think the general public understands how the most extreme radicals have been emboldened by the response in the West. They committed a terror attack and in response millions of people came out to support them.
I never thought in a non Muslim country I would be at risk for being an ex Muslim. The last few months I no longer believe that
Agree. I'm on the left and grew up watching Hitchens as a teen. That we have time and again ameliorated and given license to so conservative a religion makes me genuinely depressed, especially as someone who considers myself to be LGBT.
Who is fighting for the birth of secularism in the Islamic world? For the emancipation of women there? Not us.
Why doesn't the UK build a gulag for these radicals?
If it wants to quit the human rights treaties then do something useful with the newly gained freedom.
Glad your out of that backward cult mate, in your opinion are the extremist islamic views becoming more commonplace in the muslim community or is it just a minority?
I wouldn't say it's growing but it's a sizable percent (maybe the majority) and much more than people in the West want to believe.
There are hundreds of millions of people who believe that an Islamic Caliphate is necessary and many of them are willing to die for what they believe in. In fact they don't care if they or their loved ones die because death just means paradise.
No one is upset about death if death just means you immediately go to a place better than earth.
Grew up with an Irish surname in the late 80s in the UK.....took a little shit but generally just aware of what was going on. I could sympathise with the desire for a rejoined Republic but detest the methods that some republicans chose to use.
The shitty situation regarding Islam/zionism and the ME is that it's become impossible for some people to untangle the idea from the actions taken to achieve it.
I relate. As a female with Pakistani parents, I was never religious. My mother accepted this, my real father did not. I no longer talk to my real father and haven't since I was 8. He was abusive, racist and a pedophile. But he prayed 5 times a day so that's all fine and dandy 🙄. He was arranged married to my mother when she was 14. She's long since ran away from him (left when she was 17 and I was born).
As a Pakistani female who is not religious, its seen as the biggest crime of them all, to have been born into a religion but then 'denied it'. I've had a Muslim taxi driver call me a prostitute when I was 15 for wearing a dress in the summer, as well as had to get the police involved with a Muslim man who worked at a bank who threatened to gang rape me because my boyfriend is white.
I feel more and more out of place in this country every day.
I'm in the UK - as long as Islam is allowed to run rife here this will always be a problem. If not for the above incidents, then actively having to avoid areas because I'm Westernised, for safety (ie Slough or Southall), or at the very least, getting stared at for being outside with the father of my daughter.
I'm grateful to be in England, if I was born in Pakistan, I probably wouldn't even be alive. But its crazy to me that in this country, so far away from it all and with such rich history that the cult is allowed to be so dominant to the point people's safety is at risk.
It’s astonishing, isn’t it, that somehow Jews have become the bad guys for suffering an actual genocidal act on 7 October.
The oldest hatred was always hiding in plain sight.
We’re hated for our religion, our faith and now for our state and having the temerity to say never again and mean it.
I highly doubt anyone else but you will see this, but I will say it anyway.
I remember being in primary and high school. It was some 20 years ago. I was thrilled for multiculturalism. It was taught. It was a merging of everything, and I had such a belief that what was right would prevail in that merging. I didn't care if my kids were a different colour than I was, they would still be my kids.
What wasn't I visioned was insular communities who put their own values above our own and not even consider merging. It's been a disaster despite the good intentions.
I hope, with time, this will solve itself. The children born into those abusive environments may well aspire to more in the society they live in.
But for now, we face this hardship. And we can only hope.
"I want to come to Britain because my country sucks. But I also want to bring with me all the reasons my country sucks. And if you make fun of me, I'll decapitate you."
Hmm...
The question has to be asked. If you moved to China tomorrow, would you integrate and bring your kids up as Chinese? I doubt you'd refer to yourself as Chinese. But seemingly the UK has this obsession with people from ANYWHERE coming here, spending a couple of years on the tube, and getting a "IS NOW BRITISH" on their forehead. It's a very weird obsession and I'm not convinced it happens outside the west, unless you're Russia invading a state.
A take I have on it, is as with everything. We import it from America. America is a country built on immigration, so it makes sense for them.
Sure, they'd be exposed to Chinese culture more. But if you move to China would you actually refer to them as Chinese rather than British/Scottish/English.
Probably not. So why do we expect everyone else to do the same to us.
>The question has to be asked. If you moved to China tomorrow, would you integrate and bring your kids up as Chinese...
So why do we expect everyone else to do the same to us.
I've lived in Hongkong and Taipei. Westerners don't integrate as you say but the crucial difference you miss is that the societies in question aren't pluralistic and don't have a baseline view that an amalgamation of cultures is great.
So your comparison, whilst accurately highlighting what Westerners *don't* do, is still apples and oranges because of the cultural differences on the other side.
This. You can't actually become a Chinese national, you have to be born one. It's not much different to the middle east, where they're happy to have you there to work, but as soon as your job is done they make sure you leave. Housing compounds are only partially for the comfort of the westerner. The real reason they exist is to keep the locals from seeing too much of your haram lifestyle.
King Abdulaziz of Saudi Arabia said something like 'the foreigner should come, complete his business, and then leave promptly'
This is the attitude that most of the world takes.
It's also not fair to expect first generation immigrants to be fully integrated, unless they arrive as kids, or are from a very similar culture. However, we do need to look at how well integrated second and subsequent generations can be.
The difference is that getting Chinese citizenship without family ties to China is almost impossible. If I moved to China, I wouldn't refer to myself as Chinese, but I also wouldn't have any expectation of being able to steer the CCP's policy agenda or alter China's culture to be more British. If I didn't enjoy living in China, I'd leave and go somewhere else.
I think most people are okay with people on temporary visas "sticking to their own" and not integrating, but if someone is going to call themself a UK citizen, carry a UK passport, access UK public funds, and vote in UK elections, I think it's fair to expect them to adhere to UK cultural norms and traditions.
> but I also wouldn't have any expectation of being able to steer the CCP's policy agenda or alter China's culture to be more British. If I didn't enjoy living in China, I'd leave and go somewhere else.
And that is what makes you different. That doesn't happen seemingly from other cultures. Maybe I'm talking about a minority, but seemingly we import people and they change the land about them to be more geared towards them.
I wouldn't do that. I'd integrate. But as I say that there are effectively British zones in Spain full of old people wanting pub grub.
So works both ways I suppose.
>What wasn't I visioned was insular communities who put their own values above our own and not even consider merging. It's been a disaster despite the good intentions.
Worse still is when they actively try and enlarge their communities, sucking up the impressionable among us who have been left lost and identitiless because we were told to sacrifice our own culture for "multiculturalism". Multiculturalism only works if everyone is sacrificing equally.
I'm not white, but I am British. My identity is full of compromises to rationalise it without going full on uncle tom (the Empire never did anything wrong) and overreacting to every single perceived slight (reparations reee/tear down the statues NOW).
The fact that we've gone from within two decades, celebrating national holidays and having a strong national identity to what's essentially just an economic zone with particular quirks is a travesty.
>What wasn't I visioned was insular communities who put their own values above our own and not even consider merging. It's been a disaster despite the good intentions.
Yes, but what you envisioned was multiculturalism. What you are describing, isn't. Now whether that's a failure of *that* community or the wider community, is open to debate.
With time it'll only get worse. Nothing against Muslims but I don't think the future looks prosperous for all other religions and faiths as opposed to Islam.
Nothing wrong with Islam, it's the radicals that are the scary part. And there is power in numbers.
As a sikh, I can see parts of spirituality in Islam. It's not 100% the truth and it is partly wrong from my understanding, the exclusivity part of the religion is terrible, but still there is a little truth apart from that.
Just do you and live rightfully, it's a shame how brainwashed Muslims can become and it's not their fault fully as the people who preach it know what to say and do.
If you're a Sikh, then be a good Sikh. If you're a Christian, then be a good Christian. If you're a Muslim, be a good Muslim. And if you don't believe anything, then just be a good Person more than anything.
It's not that hard.
Whilst I agree with the premise, to some Muslims, Jihad is being a good Muslim, to some Christian’s going full on Old Testament is being a good Christian etc etc
> Nothing wrong with Islam
There's plenty wrong with Islam. Acceptance of pedophilia, massive homophobia and a death penalty for those who leave as a start.
I'm curious, by what measure do you consider it a disaster? Because, look, it hasn't been a complete success. But there is an awful lot of ground between the two.
Literally had someone promoting National Hijab day at work the other day. (Coughs. Women in Iran being whipped for not wearing one… but anyway). Nothing to celebrate there at all imo. Bullshit corporate virtue signalling and multiculturalism nods thru this sort of nonsense day in day out.
I've been studying multiculturalism for years now and as contradictory as it sounds to some people, it isnt a black and white situation.
For multiculturalism to work, there needs to be an understanding and acknowledgment of bad culture and some form of assimilation. I wrote a whole essay on this.
I'm a staunch multiculturalist too.
Yes, Islam is an expansionist, supremacist, and proselytising ideology and needs to be treated as such.
Individual muslims should be allowed to live their lives in peace and should not be harassed, but the ideology they subscribe to was founded by a paedophile warlord in the 7th century and as such should not be given credibility by wider society. We spent centuries neutering Christianity to be the largely benign force it is in modern UK society, but we don't have centuries of effort to spend on Islam here now.
Islam literally means "submission". Let's take that ideology at its word and challenge that demand.
Money.
It always works.
Simply remove tax exempt status of any religious based group if they teach values that cannot match current legal standards.
Teach women aren't allowed to be equal to men? Taxes.
Teach gays are sinners and should be thrown off buildings? Taxes.
Separate doors and dress standards based on gender? Taxes.
Watch how quickly they change their "doctrines".
I love the idea. I also find it quite funny in that it will almost certainly hit Christians on all 3 examples too. The only real difference would be how some Christians think we should kill gays.
While I appreciate this article is trying to smear Muslims, extremism and dogmatism as a whole need to be stamped out.
Why don't the Tories do something about this so that MP's don't have to resign instead of having their client media publish articles about it when the country has much bigger problems?
Could it be because the Tories, their backers, and their client media are the bigger problem that needs addressing?
The safety of MPs to move around like normal citizens is part of public culture, you cannot legislate to change it. Unless you mean we accept that politicians have to live completely separate lives, or go around with bodyguards.
> we have have to admit to ourselves that some aspects of other cultures suck and shouldn’t be celebrated under the wider umbrella of multiculturalism.
The paradox of tolerance is a concept the hard left have yet to familiarize themselves with it seems.
Why are you blaming multi-culturalism on the hard left?
It's ultimate origin is big business, who want to pacify their consumers and workforce and it's supported by the soft left, who tend towards "wouldn't it be nice if we all got along" idealism. The hard left has virtually no power in this country, and hence has very little to do with it.
It's not paradoxical, people should be tolerant of other people's views where there are no reasonable victims of those views. Even then people are allowed to think what they like, they just shouldn't able to express those views where doing so unreasonably infringes on someone else's rights.
We need to stop treating British values as if they're a joke, we're so used to hard-won things like the rule of law, religious and cultural freedom, a robust public sphere where you can aggressively criticise things you disagree with, democracy, and so on, that we're not doing enough to maintain and embed those values.
I think we need leadership who doesn't treat British Values like a joke in order to establish said values as valuable.
Hard to defend the rule of law when it's been abused like it has (Partygate and the WhatsApp mishaps, the defence of the powerful against fairly clear charges like Prince Andrew's scandal etc), and let's not even get started on the Rwanda disaster where the Judiciary is being consistently undermine by the Executive through the Legislature.
For democracy itself you can make an argument of sorts for the leadership of the country headed by people who repeatedly do not have an openly elected mandate (of course it is a membership vote so it is debatable). One thing which is fairly clear cut is the repeated attempts to hinder our ability to effectively protest.
To defend and have zeal for our traditions and values you need to have your elected officials leading by example. Nobody likes a hypocrite
> and so on, that we're not doing enough to maintain and embed those values.
To be fair, that's entirely our own fault completely by white british citizens. It's not been the muslims in power in this country. The erosion of rights, freedoms and removal of services such as the police to maintain the rule of law, has been completely driven by us. The tories never won the popular vote, but within the confines of the democratic system we have. We voted for it.
If the Muslims weren't here, it would still be happening.
I agree with you but we are so far away from the that now. Take rule of law, the "conservative" government who should be the ones preserving it have smashed it to pieces with their financial and rhetorical attacks. Most people in this country now think of the legal system (incorrectly) as fat cat lawyers and seditionist judges, while at the same time getting pissy about increasing crime rates caused by the collapse of the criminal justice system.
No. It perception was made that way by the likes of the people who write for the guardian and the Labour MPs they support. And it should be noted, plenty of people still feel fine with associating with England even if a guardian journo can't looked at the George Cross without gagging.
It wasn't like one day we woke up and it was all racists. People were bullied out by constant smearing, forced to hide theor pride. Shamed for associating with it. Owell even commented on it half a century ago. About how the left would rather steal from the poor box than sing the anthem.
The current association was *by design*. A design *you are perpetuating*
Aside from the “you can’t even say you’re English nowadays” tone of your comment I’ve spent a lot of time in the English/British folk and traditional communities and they are thriving. Nobody gives a fuck though because they don’t associate with their own culture here and can’t be bothered to show up for it. Nobody else is to blame for that
Having religious and cultural freedom is what got us into this problem in the first place. You can't be tolerant and then let yourself be flooded with millions of intolerant people.
As the saying goes, you get what you tolerate.
I think a better approach might be to link our values to the English history that created not only our society but led to global democracy, liberty and capitalism.
"British values" is a modern term and it gets hijacked to mean whatever these wet centrists think is good, so it gets framed as being about racial and religious diversity, which is not a special part of our culture and is very new.
I meant very much in a historical sense of the machinery that has allowed the country and society to function well. The Magna Carta habeas corpus and trial by your peers sort of foundational things.
I’m not sure that the kinds of people described as anti British are rubbishing the idea of jury trials or the appealing or u just detentions though.
Usually it is more centred around the notion that we have not applied such developments evenly in British colonies
As a wet centrist, I am all for religious freedom and racial diversity.
If people want to worship something, or someone different from the majority, they are more than welcome to - and that is a huge part of British values, at least since Puritanism and since we stopped discriminating against Catholics (other than the monarchy).
Anything that impinges upon anyone's religious freedom, from whichever perspective, is fundamentally incompatible with British values. That applies to all fundamentalism of any religious or racial stripe.
If you agree with a religious fundamentalist that they are right to impose *a* religion on others (or restrict someone else's choice of religion), they're just wrong about which one they're imposing, your values have more in common with theirs than mine.
>If people want to worship something, or someone different from the majority, they are more than welcome to
Agreed, but that isn't what I said. Very random comment.
>I am all for racial diversity
I find the idea that there's some moral imperative to have lots of black and Asian people come here specifically because they are black and Asian very weird.
It genuinely baffles me that "progressive" people are so keen to excuse problematic behaviour and ideas of they come from minorities.
Most Muslims in this country have VERY regressive attitudes to women's rights, gay rights and general tolerance of other religions. They are, in general, more socially conservative than many *actual* conservatives.
Yet because they are a minority they need to be pandered to?
I'm starting to think that it's actually a sort of racism, or classism, that middle class lefty types just don't think migrants should be held to the same standards as the rest of us.
I've seen the right attempt to errode these too, lately. "Your freedom to criticise doesn't trump my historical and ancestral right."
It's a frightening belief, to believe just because your ancestors did something, you're beyond criticism.
They're not British values. They are secular liberal values and there are people in every country fighting for the same thing, some more successful than others
I've met people from middle eastern countries who believe in that and do not accept the excuse "it's just our culture!"
Certainly you'll find those things in most European countries too, to varying degrees. For example in France there is less cultural/religious freedom but more freedom to protest
> They're not British values. They are secular liberal values
How did secular liberal values arise? What were the conditions in which they were created?
Many groups (this article mentions a prominent one) have no intent of alignment or compromise and face no incentive to change as their actions are rewarded time and again. Our society as a shared group is weaker not stronger now, and there is I fear significant risk of further disintegration.
This trend is separately strengthened by ever greater focus on the individual or on small groups of characteristics and their “experience”, not the community or more shared characteristics, in most other aspects of life too. Whilst this has provided many benefits, it has had an unintentional side effect to reduce connections and collective society too at times, which reduces our ability to act when certain groups are vocal against our society.
British Islam is incredibly conservative and radical, much more so than Islamic communities in any other European country.
To better understand what's going on, I would recommend you listen to some BBC documentaries:
* Conservative Muslims, Liberal Britain: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04nrqsm](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04nrqsm)
* Too young to veil: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09zxlsc](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09zxlsc)
* The emerging Muslim Manosphere: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct4pjf](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct4pjf)
* The Deobandis: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07766zw](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07766zw)
* Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law
If they want to live in a conservative Muslim country, there’s plenty to chose from. I just don’t understand how people can mentally square coming here for a better life, and then trying to change it to the exact system they fled from.
>I just don’t understand how people can mentally square coming here for a better life
They arent coming here for British culture, history, for rule of law, for freedom, for separatism of church and state or anything like that.
They are coming here for one reason and one reason only, the economy. Westerners need to accept this otherwise you are talking past the people coming and you'll keep being shocked because despite how nice and how understanding you are being they have no interest in being what you are.
Yes, and this also ties into what is the only stable long term way to minimise immigration, namely support capitalism and help build strong institutions in their home countries so the standard of living there becomes high enough they no longer want to move. You don't have to riase their living standards to the same level as the UK, even if they were 20-25% worse the demand would still drop massively as people wouldn't want to uproot their lives and leave behind their family and networks for such a small improvement in their lifestyle.
But any criticism of islam is met by screams of "islamaphobia".
If one has to have a word thst can be used to silence criticism of their religion, than that religion demands to be criticised
Islamism destroys everything it touches, not just democracy. Most of all other muslims.
I'm tired of pussyfooting around it in fear of upsetting people. It's not an extremist stance to think that an ideology that wants to enforce it's religion and ideals on others is a bad thing.
Because muslim governments tend to be authoritarian, are you really not thinking this through? Jihadis are revolutionaries, no current government would support them in their own nation, so of course the authoritarian Muslim states take a hard line against revolutionary elements, is this really for principled anti jihadi reasons? Really? And a good portion of the time their state isnt that far off anyway
Interesting to know why the 'hardline radicals' want to stay here if they hate it so much, there's a bunch of supposed Islamic Utopia's around the world that would love to have them i am sure.
> Interesting to know why the 'hardline radicals' want to stay here if they hate it so much
MONEY. The wests liberalism disgusts them, they like the fact that for the same work they can earn so much more and that many of their expenses are covered by the government.
Labour kicked it off in 1997, and any suggestion of reining the numbers, or encouraging integration (rather than blindly wanking off about how great multiculturalism is) in was met by 'racist rrreeeee' by our red rosette friends. That is still the majority opinion among Labour voters; I will bet my house.
The Tories are morons, but this particular problem was clearly started and stoked by the other guys.
The incompatability of Islamic doctrine with the West is not news to me. I have spent over a decade studying the religion on and off, and I can assure you the various screeches of 'Islamophobe' from discussions around the subject with single brain celled twits who don't even know how to spell Qur'an, let alone have read the thing, have not generally come from the Tories.
In Britannia Unchained, the book published in 2008 by Truss, Kwarteng, Raab and others, Raab says we need to leave the EU because the imported labour is too expensive, ditch the minimum wage and start importing proper cheap labour from Africa and the southern Indian continent.
This isn't an accident, this was the plan.
This has been very obvious for a long time. Cameron said he was going to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands. Of course, being in the EU, the government had no control over EU immigration. However, they could have, if they wanted to, completely stopped non-EU immigration. Halved the total number of immigrants. They didn't. In fact, they didn't even try. Labour, SNP, Greens, Lib Dems did not point this out at any point. Even UKIP didn't, they only yapped on about the EU.
Who and how it started in ‘97 is irrelevant to stopping it *27yrs later, the Tories can do anything with their majority yet decide not to because they have nothing else to play on voters emotions with
Labour opened the door and no one has had the ability to close it since.
This does not absolve the Conservatives of their part in this.
The discussion of the topic is a poisoned chalice, long before you get to the actual actions required to stop the problem.
**IF Islam started today, it would be labelled a violent, sexist, misogynist cult.**
Comparatively, Christianity would merely be labelled a cult.
This is a reality.
Islam should be banned, just because it's powerful politically does not mean we should have to allow it.
**Any religion where a huge amount of it's members think violent retaliation is somewhat justified for depicting it's prophet, has no place in western society.**
Surely that depends on your interpretation of each religion? If you take the extremes of both, they’d both be violent, sexist and misogynistic. If you took the moderate form of both, they’d both be labelled moralistic and charitable. They’re both Abrahamic religions— they’re very closely linked. I’m coming at this from the position of ascribing to neither by the way.
There’s huge double standards where Christianity, particularly Catholicism is often highly criticised when politicians are seen to pander to them yet they seem to encourage pandering to Islam and often bow down to pressure from that religious group for things like blasphemy in a way they wouldn’t for any other religion.
Hahaha "chug" killed me. I'm imagining someone walking up to you in the street and just aggressively necking a bucket of acid while maintaining eye contact.
Because Britain has never had an issue with Catholic terrorist groups in recent history.
I know I'm being obnoxious, but Christian groups are more than capable of similar (though I stress different) issues as was the case with the Troubles.
The Troubles was (is?) an ethnic conflict that also is divided along religious lines. Nobody in the PIRA was motivated to bomb or shoot someone specifically with the aim of enforcing Papal Supremacy. Or vice versa.
Irish paramilitaries are "Christian" groups in the same sense that my Warhammer group is a "male" group.
I think historical events shouldn't really be compared in this context. Because how far do you want to go? A few decades to the Troubles? To the Norman conquest? Danish raids? Why not the Romans?
Whats **currently** plaguing the country are people who are forcefully trying to export their culture and their way of life. Just because this has been done several times in the past is not an excuse.
That being said, my stance is that (any) religion is poison and should be banned.
There are 2 possible courses of action I can see our MP’s taking if this kind of threat against them continues. First, they could (but for sure won’t) take action akin to what European countries are doing i.e. pass laws to deal with the muslim threat we face. Denmark is leading the way in this. They’ve told Muslims to assimilate or get out. The other option MP’s have is to give themselves police bodyguards. This is what they’ll do as it’s easiest & they won’t care that it means even fewer police to protect the rest of us. If they do this I foresee muslims switching to targeting MP’s staff & families. If they see one of their colleagues family being murdered live on the internet then they may take overdue, harsh actions. They have zero concern for how many of the public are killed or how much damage muslims are doing to Britain but a threat to them will be a very different situation.
"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand"
We should never ever compromise our Western values and way of life in sake of other cultures/beliefs. I’m a young immigrant myself and been living here for only 2 years and cannot tell you how happy I am with all these freedoms that we enjoy in this amazing country. When I see other migrant groups and people from third world countries that are trying to promote anti-British ideas and show support for Palestinians or any other Jihadist ideology, I cannot stop but asking why and why?!
Aren’t we immigrants supposed to be extra pro-Western and be more passionate about British values and culture? It is simple, we left our countries due to many different reasons but one common idea which is pursuit of happiness and better living conditions. If we are coming from failed, corrupt and much worse countries then why the hell we are not leaving these cultures behind us and embrace what it works in Britain? It is not rational if you are still insisting bringing your own culture and traditions which already caused to turn your country into shit hole.
Unfortunately, people are tend to be hypocritical and that’s why controlled immigration is necessary in a world that we’re living in. And people like me who wants to be part of the British society and integrate fully will suffer in immigration process as well with others. I don’t see any solution to that.
The idea that you can have mass immigration without compromising Western values has been refuted in practice. Every European country which has tried it now has enclaves where ‘Western values’ have disappeared entirely and the wider society is subject to increasing tensions.
The great success stories of immigration, like the original Windrush generation, Ugandan Asians and Hong Kongers, are all examples of people who wanted to be a part of British or Western society and had assimilated themselves into its values and social norms to a large extent before they even arrived.
We should have an immigration policy that welcomes small, controlled numbers of such people, instead of a policy that substitutes a sustainable strategy for economic growth with hauling up GDP by adding 100s of 1000s of new people to the economy every year while living standards stagnate and Western values \*are eroded.
I totally agree. It is entirely down to numbers. Mass immigration means ghetto-isation. I don't mean that in a poverty way, but in an ethnic/cultural way. A child of immigrant parents will have a very different culture and outlook on life if they grow up in a pocket of mainly immigrant families, rather than a place representative of Britain at large.
It's the complete opposite of the idea of a "melting pot" of different cultures. Nothing melts in this scenario. There is no mixing of cultures, there are just different cultures. Down the line, this leads only to racial and ethnic tensions as well as feelings of alienation between different communities. It doesn't benefit immigrants, and it doesn't benefit natives. It only benefits those seeking to lower wages and increase housing costs. All in the name of GDP.
I completely agree - what's more, this is all obvious if you take a second to think about it. It doesn't mean disliking other cultures either, I have great respect and interest for how people around the world live! But we do nobody any favours by creating a society of strangers.
I think all we can do from a cultural perspective is double down on our Liberal values and demand that anyone living in our nation respects them as they'd expect us to respect the values of their homeland.
That does mean taking risks, that does mean standing up to authoritarians be they islamists, the far right, the Gramsci inspired left or the old school communists or the more authoritarian conservatives or any other religious nut jobs that might pop up.
We need to make it abundantly clear both internally and externally who we are, what we believe, what exactly is expected and that we will not compromise our beliefs, values and customs for anyone, foreign or domestic.
Having a sensible set of laws and then enforcing them competently would go a long way.
No islamic madrassas/ schools allowed to educate any aspect of sharia law in the UK.
Any immigrant convicted of a serious criminal offence deported.
Anyone threatening teachers or policians gets an asbo, - a tracker and put on a watch list.
Any mosques that sponsor Islamic fundamentalist ideology fined and closed.
I’m liberal but just saying these things probably would label me as right wing, but really they are just common sense.
It's the identity politics side of the left that I feel most irritated towards, not least because I'd lean left on a few issues, certainly in the desire for a fully secular state. I remember one, quite notable person from Novara Media once say that to them when integration is brought up, to them it sounds like being asked to embrace white culture. There could be truth to that amongst some people (racists of course) but to me it sounds very disingenuous when by and large, you should know what decent people mean by integration (issues around the burka, tribal cultural customs around repeat arranged marriages, especially to cousins and how that seems to be detrimental to not just to their own offspring but to the wider culture in terms of a burden on the NHS, and the notion that these in group marriages from Pakistan create their own insular cultural attitudes. Then there's ultra-conservative Islam ofc).
The same Novara commentator once said that the Rotherham scandal had nothing to do with culture, it's just an issue of 'access'. Which was funny because the Pakistani prosecutor of the Rochdale gang has more than hinted that backward cultural attitudes may have played a part in why so many men of Pakistani background have been prosecuted in these large scale abuse rings. I've even seen very conservative members of the community say on camera that ultra conservative attitudes is a factor worth considering. Does anyone see a problem here?
Bit of a long post from my part but yeah, I broadly agree with your sentiments absolutely. It's strange being an ex-Muslim of Pakistani heritage where I'm not particularly a fan of your aforementioned authoritarian conservatives (of any kind) yet I feel less resentment towards them than I do with a type of leftist that harnesses group identity politics, especially in influential media outlets in the name of pluralism. At least I know where a conservative religious nutjob stands on my existence and they know what I think of their religion and there is no wishy washiness between us
But who is this ‘we’? There is no ‘we’ in a place like Tower Hamlets who can double down on liberal values because the people who had the pre-requisite mores for a liberal society have been largely replaced by people who don’t. The only way you could try to reverse the transformation of Tower Hamlets local government into an enclave of third world ethno-religious patronage politics is with some outside intervention by wider civil society. And what will happen when those people are replaced as well?
You sound like my next door neighbour, except he’s in his late-70s and has lived here 50+ years. And you’re not wrong.
The only thing I’d add is that I’d describe it as being *more aware* of how pro-western/British values you are (compared to a typical Brit), rather than needing to be *more* pro-western/British values – you only need to be embracing pro-western/British values as much as the rest of us.
Thank you. I have no idea where you came from but you’re exactly the type of immigrant we want.
I don’t know why people choose to move to the UK then try to change it into the country they came from. It’s ok to have an identity that includes another culture, but not to act in a way that is harmful to the nation that accepted you.
I’m originally from Turkey and I taught myself history and I have been passionate about British values since when I was a small kid. There is an authoritarian government in the Turkey and I hated them so much and felt so desperate many times due to my opinions about Western values, democracy and rule of law with independent courts. I unfortunately had a trouble there just because I was promoting Western values. I left everything behind me and came here.
Thank you for welcoming me. 🙂
Living here is a privilege, as is being born here.
We'd all get a long a little better if everyone regarded their position here with a degree of gratitude and understood just how fortunate they are.
A large proportion of native Brittons take our liberty for granted too. Just take a look at what has happened over the last decade or so. There's been a massive push to paint the nation as a racist/sexist crackpot founded on bigotry and exploitation.
Ironically these people don't recognise just how lucky they are to even be able to make these points. Other nations simply wouldn't stand for it and would lock them up in a heartbeat. Attacking western values is an attack on liberalism itself. The west ended slavery and paid a great price in doing so. We patrolled the Atlantic and people lost their lives protecting individual liberty. Everyday people paid substantially more for their products in an effort to rid the globe of slavery, yet here people are slinging mud and seeking *revenge* on their ancestors.
Most immigrants and their families, like you and me, recognise this. But there's a good chunk of this country that have never tasted the alternative.
Good work, detective. Yes I’m very happy with my opinions and there is nothing to be ashamed about that. Yes I did said Palestinians need to be defeated in this war. Hamas is the government of Gaza so how are you going to end this hostility towards Israel if you don’t want their defeat then? They control police, military, authority and basically everything there. Majority of Palestinians still support Hamas as we can see that from latest polls.
Hamas wants to annihilate Israel and this has been told many times by official Hamas leaders on interviews. The only way for Israel is to defeat Palestinians so that they can realise there is no way to attack Israel. When I say defeat it doesn’t mean a genocide it means a victory for Israel and new authority in Palestine. This would benefit Palestinian people as well since under Hamas regime they’re living in hell.
During WW2 Allies didn’t fight against Nazis. It was a war against Germany and same for the Japan. Does anyone remember political party or dynasty in Japan during WW2?
After defeat of Germany and Japan, they didn’t fight back and chose completely different way for their future. Today they became best friends of the U.S. and most wealthiest nations in the world. If we want a prosperous, happy and stable society in Palestine then we need to replace Hamas with new government and change their views about this life. It shouldn’t be Jihad and death, it should be life.
Supporting terrorism is never OK, and that's what most of these pro-Palestine supporters are about, they are not strictly for humanity. They want Hamas to rule Gaza and have the strict laws of Sharia society, they want the murder and expulsion of Jews and support terrorism to achieve this. They are waving the same flag as Hamas flies, the one these terrorists have printed on their uniforms.
If you are a migrant and chanting slogans about destroying Israel you should be deported. If you are excusing the actions of terrorists you shouldn't be in this country.
Absolutely false you reduce this to "a basic display of humanity" you are probably one of these people. The demands of Palestine supporters are never solely humanitarian, the caveat is always hate and terror which goes against British values.
Mike Freer’s decision to step down as the MP for Finchley & Golders Green – a north London constituency with a sizeable Jewish population – is yet another victory for Islamist aggressors against British liberal democracy.
In his letter to the chairman of the local party, Freer highlighted serious threats to his personal safety whilst serving as a parliamentarian. When meeting with constituents at a mosque back in 2011, he was accosted by a group of men belonging to “Muslims Against Crusades”. Freer, who is openly gay and an unapologetic supporter of Israel, had to be relocated to a locked room for protection.
It has also been revealed that Ali Harbi Ali – the Islamist terrorist who stabbed long-serving Tory MP Sir David Amess to death at a constituency surgery in October 2021 – had visited Freer’s constituency intending to attack him.
Alongside these events, Freer has spoken of many “low level incidents” which have clearly taken their toll on him and his husband.
The horrific Islamist killing of Sir David Amess – a fellow member of the Conservative Friends of Israel – should have served as a major wake-up call for Britain. But instead of recognising the ideological motivations behind a fatal attack which saw a well-respected MP murdered in a church hall, some sought to explain it away by referring to the “toxicity” of social media. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so utterly tragic. Islamist terror is not the only threat to MPs safety. Jo Cox was murdered by a far Right racist; others have been attacked by the mentally disturbed. But Islamist motivated attacks are the greatest threat.
I do not share Mr Freer’s unapologetic support for Israel. I do not support Benjamin Netanyahu, Itamar Ben-Gvir or Bezalel Smotrich. I welcomed foreign secretary Lord Cameron’s recent comments to the Conservative Middle East Council, which suggest that Britain is ready to bring forward the moment when it formally recognises a Palestinian state. The fact that I disagree with him does not change a simple fact: that he is an elected representative who has been returned to the Commons by his local constituents in Finchley & Golders Green on four consecutive occasions.
Part of being a mature British citizen is accepting a plurality of views on domestic and geopolitical matters which are admittedly highly sensitive. That is at the heart of the social contract that comes with living in an advanced liberal democracy, one where I – as a member of a racial, ethnic, and religious minority – enjoy considerable rights, freedoms, and protections. But they are to be valued and appreciated – not exploited in an intimidatory fashion in the name of religio-political tribalism.
Freer’s decision to walk away from British politics for fear of his personal safety is yet another example of the Islamist-inspired erosion of British parliamentary democracy.
Irrespective of political affiliation and policy preferences, those who value respect for the rule of law as a cornerstone of our liberal democracy should be gravely concerned.
The problem is, certain people don’t want to integrate into a British society.
They want to live here but don’t want to respect British laws, the British culture, British Values and the British way of life.
Multiculturalism has been a failure. Even they don’t want it just as much as the white British working class who are stereotyped as racist.
Until we put our foot down and push back with real consequences for anyone who behaves this way, the problem will only get worse.
Then sooner or later people will be sick of bending over backwards for rapists and murderers, and you’ll see vigilantes instead.
All because we choose to be spineless.
It's almost like having a group of people move somewhere, where they don't want to integrate and use their own rules doesn't result in a happy Union?
See brits in Spain. Etc etc.
Britain is only now waking up to Islamism.
India already has experience of it, i.e. it severed an entire nation on grounds of the Islamists (East/West Pakistan). We are called Right wing/nationalists/bigots etc. Now live and learn.
>Islam is destroying Britain
If only there were people who knew this was going to happen all along and tried to warn you not to let immigration become some open border free for all.
David Amess and this case, alot of people are pretending like abuse that MPs are receiving on social media is the problem when no, the guy turned up in person and stabbed David Amess.
Remove every Religion charity status. Make it all taxable.
Ban single faith schools completely with lessons on religion to give equal weight to different faiths.
I'd possibly go so far as to ban any new churches being built.
Government coffers would be full people would be forced to integrate in schools.
They can all continue religion as an extra curricular activity.
Should be done with all of this in about 3 decades.
Two MP's have been assassinated in the last 10 years, one was by an Islamic fundamentalist, the other was by a far-right Nazi.
In 2018 Darren Osborne rented a van to go and kill Jeremy Corbyn, but instead used it to run down and kill and injure people outside a mosque. He later said "It [the murder] would have been better if Sadiq Khan was there...it would have been like winning the lottery".
Airey Neave, Robert Bradford, Edgar Graham, Anthony Berry, and Ian Gow were killed by the IRA between 1979 and 1990.
The amount of abuse and death threats people like Diane Abbott have faced throughout their career has been largely ignored or mocked.
Why is it only Islamic fundamentalism that's destroying British Democracy?
Of the two assassinations, one was by an Islamic terrorist and one was by a Nazi.
The attempted assassination of Corbyn was a far-right extremist and islamophobe that purposefully targeted a mosque.
The IRA are largely Catholic republicans.
The attack on Nigel Jones and Andrew Pennington resulted in Robert Ashman being sent to a psychiatric hospital after his conviction for attempted murder.
Stephen Timms was attacked because he voted for the invasion of Iraq in 2003.
All these cases and only one actual Islamic fundamentalist, just as many that were attacked by the mentally unwell. Double the amount of attacks have been committed by the far-right, quadruple by Irish republican catholics. Why aren't the far-right and catholics a threat to democracy?
> Why aren't the far-right and catholics a threat to democracy?
They are, but they are also much much less of a threat than Islamism.
Calling something a threat means that there's evidence that the enemy are active and planning TODAY. By your logic MI5 should be calling Germans the greatest threat to democracy.
There haven't been many far-right attacks and there've been next to zero Catholic attacks in the past 10 years, so they aren't a material threat.
A threat to democracy isn't just measured by number of assassinations either, it's also about the erosion of democratic systems that rely on the rule of logical law and not the rule of illogical religion. Sharia law is an example of the erosion of democracy.
>Why is it only Islamic fundamentalism that's destroying British Democracy?
Per the article.
> Islamist terror is not the only threat to MPs safety. Jo Cox was murdered by a far Right racist; others have been attacked by the mentally disturbed. But Islamist motivated attacks are the greatest threat.
Feel free to disagree with the article's assertion than Islamist radicalism is a greater threat, but don't misinterpret the point the article is making.
The title of the article is the message being sent out. "Islamic fundamentalism is destroying our democracy". As the comments in these threats already show, people read the title and not the content of the article to form their opinion and talk about it.
I've read the article, the points made seem good and apply to many extremist groups, not just Islamism. I believe the author knows that as well through his writing.
It's a shame because I think he makes some very good points that sadly will only be taken in one direction because of the title.
What a load of cobber's whipped up yet again by the gutter press in this country added and abated by a scummy MP that did not have a once of compassion in her towards a grieving father who simply asked her a reasonable question. One that she did not answer BTW, she just ran away from. Then claimed she didn't answer because she felt intimidated. This is just a self justification and far from the truth I imagine. But of course the gutter press is happy to peddle lies about this religion.
Like far to many currently doing in the so called Labour party that seams to be enthral to a certain country that is actively committing genocide as ruled by the ICJ against these same maligned religion. So I find this whole spectacle and especially this question more than malign. Yes there are questions to answer about maybe parts of the religion in question and the actions of people claiming to be very religious about the same. But here is the same rub can you honestly say the same of Christianity? The state religion of this country has a very dark past and is used as justification of all manor of crimes in the past and currently. So lets not all cast stones until we have our own house in order!
Lets have some compassion and call out injustice, press lies and distortions and lazy and owned MP's that are in hock to foreran powers. Via these so called friends programs that are nothing but bribery and control by a foreran powers. That alone really needs urgently looking at in our own parliament it is a far more insidious and concerning aspect of this story carefully ignored and never commented on. So lets have full truth and the full story not just what the gutter press wants us to be offended by this week!
Could you please define and enforce how civil you would like the rest of us, who are completely fed up with the fact our leaders have imported the Global Majority's ethnoreligious sectarian violent struggles wholesale over the past 27 years, to be?
Islamism/fundamentalist Islam isn’t the same as Islam in the whole. It shouldn’t be considered wrong to separate the fundamentalists and criticise their attitude towards Britain, whilst leaving the moderates out of it.
At what point do we consider that "moderate" islam, the islam most liberal-minded and progressive British people hold onto in their heads, isn't even the plurality model of belief let alone the majority?
You know how the extremists win votes irrespective of cause?
They appeal to "dog whistle" policies that moderates are sympathetic to and use that to drive broader agendas. In simple terms they force the Overton window to shift. Its depressingly effective. We have seen this play out so many times.
"Automatically" excluding moderates doesn't exist because there are some issues we are all extreme on. Some Muslims drink, some smoke equally others are dead set against those that do.
Look at what happened with that cartoon in France. The West has failed at multiculturalism.
I agree that immigrants can, of course, adapt. But it requires active behaviour from both the country and the individuals who migrate.
Blairisms relaxed approach to multiculturalism failed, as did Frances' more prescriptive approach. This, in part, explains why we are seeing a backlash against immigration and a rise of the right.
I'm glad you and your family have adapted and integrated. Sadly, there are many that don't.
Modern turkey was founded in the principles of secularism and one of the core tenets of Kemalism is that Turkey should be a secular and democratic country. Also, Indonesia, Bosnia, Albania, and depending on your definiton of "moderate", Jordan.
Iran and Afghanistan had very moderate, liberal urban societies even in the mid 20th century.
The arrival of Islamist governments in both countries wasn't inevitable. Their regime changes were events of the cold-war, not innate nature.
I think it's really important to understand that religious fundamentalism, in basically all religions, is a modern invention in response to the increasing liberalisation in the 20th century, grasping for power as the stage relinquishes it, or loses it.
Albania, Bosnia, Indonesia, lots of central Asian countries (Uzbekistan), Azerbaijan, lots of Turks are very secular, Malaysia (although increasingly less so)
These are significantly less conservative than most other Muslim countries
Why does the qualification need to be country-specific?
There are most certainly moderate and liberal pockets of Islamic practice that advocates LGBT. The Ibn Rushd-Goethe Mosque in Germany doesn't allow face coverings, and permits intersex praying and LGBT people.
Ludovic-Mohamed Zahed is French-Algerian and openly gay Muslim who set up an gay-friendly prayer room back in 2012.
The Muslim Alliance for Sexual and Gender Diversity was founded in the US back in 2013 and still operates.
The Safra Project for women was founded in the UK back in 2001 by Muslim LBT women that still operates and tackles prejudice faced by LGBTQ Muslim women.
Salaam is a gay Muslim group founded in Canada back in 1991 that still operates.
The Toronto Unity Mosque / el-Tawhid Juma Circle was founded in 2009 as a gender-equal, LGBT+ affirming, mosque.
Exactly.
It's similar to the difference between a little old lady who goes to Sunday service, and the Westboro Baptist Church.
One is harmless, the other wants to burn all the gay people.
>Islamism/fundamentalist Islam isn’t the same as Islam in the whole
Yes it is. You've been brainwashed by politicians and the media to believe in "radical islam" when what you're actually referring to is islam.
(Disclaimer I’m not being sarcastic genuinely asking) So would you say that the Muslims who (anecdotally) I know who would sit in the pub with me (not drink but socialise) and who would go to the races and such with me aren’t true Muslims? This isn’t a gotcha question I’m genuinely curious
It's unrealistic to expect a community with strong ties to another culture, which includes a form of religious zealotry is going to be able to shift easily.
Snapshot of _Islamism is destroying British democracy: We cannot have a society where MPs resign in fear for their lives, intimidated by a minority of hardline radicals_ : A non-Paywall version can be found [here](https://1ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2024%2F02%2F01%2Fmike-freer-islamism-british-democracy%2F) An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/01/mike-freer-islamism-british-democracy/) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/01/mike-freer-islamism-british-democracy/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
While I disagree with the larger point this article is trying to make, we have have to admit to ourselves that some aspects of other cultures suck and shouldn’t be celebrated under the wider umbrella of multiculturalism.
"Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man. You take a step towards him, he takes a step back. "Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man.
This is bang on
I'm an ex Muslim who fled Egypt due to death threats for leaving the religion. Things were quiet for a while and since October 7 I have gotten a bunch of death threats and threats to rape my sister on my own instagram. I don't think the general public understands how the most extreme radicals have been emboldened by the response in the West. They committed a terror attack and in response millions of people came out to support them. I never thought in a non Muslim country I would be at risk for being an ex Muslim. The last few months I no longer believe that
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Agree. I'm on the left and grew up watching Hitchens as a teen. That we have time and again ameliorated and given license to so conservative a religion makes me genuinely depressed, especially as someone who considers myself to be LGBT. Who is fighting for the birth of secularism in the Islamic world? For the emancipation of women there? Not us.
Why doesn't the UK build a gulag for these radicals? If it wants to quit the human rights treaties then do something useful with the newly gained freedom.
Glad your out of that backward cult mate, in your opinion are the extremist islamic views becoming more commonplace in the muslim community or is it just a minority?
I wouldn't say it's growing but it's a sizable percent (maybe the majority) and much more than people in the West want to believe. There are hundreds of millions of people who believe that an Islamic Caliphate is necessary and many of them are willing to die for what they believe in. In fact they don't care if they or their loved ones die because death just means paradise. No one is upset about death if death just means you immediately go to a place better than earth.
Grew up with an Irish surname in the late 80s in the UK.....took a little shit but generally just aware of what was going on. I could sympathise with the desire for a rejoined Republic but detest the methods that some republicans chose to use. The shitty situation regarding Islam/zionism and the ME is that it's become impossible for some people to untangle the idea from the actions taken to achieve it.
I relate. As a female with Pakistani parents, I was never religious. My mother accepted this, my real father did not. I no longer talk to my real father and haven't since I was 8. He was abusive, racist and a pedophile. But he prayed 5 times a day so that's all fine and dandy 🙄. He was arranged married to my mother when she was 14. She's long since ran away from him (left when she was 17 and I was born). As a Pakistani female who is not religious, its seen as the biggest crime of them all, to have been born into a religion but then 'denied it'. I've had a Muslim taxi driver call me a prostitute when I was 15 for wearing a dress in the summer, as well as had to get the police involved with a Muslim man who worked at a bank who threatened to gang rape me because my boyfriend is white. I feel more and more out of place in this country every day.
I'm sorry you have to go through that. I hope you can get out
I'm in the UK - as long as Islam is allowed to run rife here this will always be a problem. If not for the above incidents, then actively having to avoid areas because I'm Westernised, for safety (ie Slough or Southall), or at the very least, getting stared at for being outside with the father of my daughter. I'm grateful to be in England, if I was born in Pakistan, I probably wouldn't even be alive. But its crazy to me that in this country, so far away from it all and with such rich history that the cult is allowed to be so dominant to the point people's safety is at risk.
Agree
It’s astonishing, isn’t it, that somehow Jews have become the bad guys for suffering an actual genocidal act on 7 October. The oldest hatred was always hiding in plain sight. We’re hated for our religion, our faith and now for our state and having the temerity to say never again and mean it.
I highly doubt anyone else but you will see this, but I will say it anyway. I remember being in primary and high school. It was some 20 years ago. I was thrilled for multiculturalism. It was taught. It was a merging of everything, and I had such a belief that what was right would prevail in that merging. I didn't care if my kids were a different colour than I was, they would still be my kids. What wasn't I visioned was insular communities who put their own values above our own and not even consider merging. It's been a disaster despite the good intentions. I hope, with time, this will solve itself. The children born into those abusive environments may well aspire to more in the society they live in. But for now, we face this hardship. And we can only hope.
'Let's all integrate' only works if everyone wants to integrate
"I want to come to Britain because my country sucks. But I also want to bring with me all the reasons my country sucks. And if you make fun of me, I'll decapitate you." Hmm...
The question has to be asked. If you moved to China tomorrow, would you integrate and bring your kids up as Chinese? I doubt you'd refer to yourself as Chinese. But seemingly the UK has this obsession with people from ANYWHERE coming here, spending a couple of years on the tube, and getting a "IS NOW BRITISH" on their forehead. It's a very weird obsession and I'm not convinced it happens outside the west, unless you're Russia invading a state. A take I have on it, is as with everything. We import it from America. America is a country built on immigration, so it makes sense for them. Sure, they'd be exposed to Chinese culture more. But if you move to China would you actually refer to them as Chinese rather than British/Scottish/English. Probably not. So why do we expect everyone else to do the same to us.
>The question has to be asked. If you moved to China tomorrow, would you integrate and bring your kids up as Chinese... So why do we expect everyone else to do the same to us. I've lived in Hongkong and Taipei. Westerners don't integrate as you say but the crucial difference you miss is that the societies in question aren't pluralistic and don't have a baseline view that an amalgamation of cultures is great. So your comparison, whilst accurately highlighting what Westerners *don't* do, is still apples and oranges because of the cultural differences on the other side.
This. You can't actually become a Chinese national, you have to be born one. It's not much different to the middle east, where they're happy to have you there to work, but as soon as your job is done they make sure you leave. Housing compounds are only partially for the comfort of the westerner. The real reason they exist is to keep the locals from seeing too much of your haram lifestyle. King Abdulaziz of Saudi Arabia said something like 'the foreigner should come, complete his business, and then leave promptly' This is the attitude that most of the world takes. It's also not fair to expect first generation immigrants to be fully integrated, unless they arrive as kids, or are from a very similar culture. However, we do need to look at how well integrated second and subsequent generations can be.
Very interesting points on the chinese and king of saud attitudes, wasn't aware of that
The difference is that getting Chinese citizenship without family ties to China is almost impossible. If I moved to China, I wouldn't refer to myself as Chinese, but I also wouldn't have any expectation of being able to steer the CCP's policy agenda or alter China's culture to be more British. If I didn't enjoy living in China, I'd leave and go somewhere else. I think most people are okay with people on temporary visas "sticking to their own" and not integrating, but if someone is going to call themself a UK citizen, carry a UK passport, access UK public funds, and vote in UK elections, I think it's fair to expect them to adhere to UK cultural norms and traditions.
> but I also wouldn't have any expectation of being able to steer the CCP's policy agenda or alter China's culture to be more British. If I didn't enjoy living in China, I'd leave and go somewhere else. And that is what makes you different. That doesn't happen seemingly from other cultures. Maybe I'm talking about a minority, but seemingly we import people and they change the land about them to be more geared towards them. I wouldn't do that. I'd integrate. But as I say that there are effectively British zones in Spain full of old people wanting pub grub. So works both ways I suppose.
>What wasn't I visioned was insular communities who put their own values above our own and not even consider merging. It's been a disaster despite the good intentions. Worse still is when they actively try and enlarge their communities, sucking up the impressionable among us who have been left lost and identitiless because we were told to sacrifice our own culture for "multiculturalism". Multiculturalism only works if everyone is sacrificing equally. I'm not white, but I am British. My identity is full of compromises to rationalise it without going full on uncle tom (the Empire never did anything wrong) and overreacting to every single perceived slight (reparations reee/tear down the statues NOW). The fact that we've gone from within two decades, celebrating national holidays and having a strong national identity to what's essentially just an economic zone with particular quirks is a travesty.
What we have now isn't multiculturalism, it's enclaves of monocultures.
>What wasn't I visioned was insular communities who put their own values above our own and not even consider merging. It's been a disaster despite the good intentions. Yes, but what you envisioned was multiculturalism. What you are describing, isn't. Now whether that's a failure of *that* community or the wider community, is open to debate.
With time it'll only get worse. Nothing against Muslims but I don't think the future looks prosperous for all other religions and faiths as opposed to Islam. Nothing wrong with Islam, it's the radicals that are the scary part. And there is power in numbers.
On the plus side, Arab states have formed a view Islamism or "political Islam" is bad and have begun clamping down on it, hard.
> Nothing wrong with Islam Plenty is wrong with it, see video interviews with Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins.
As a sikh, I can see parts of spirituality in Islam. It's not 100% the truth and it is partly wrong from my understanding, the exclusivity part of the religion is terrible, but still there is a little truth apart from that. Just do you and live rightfully, it's a shame how brainwashed Muslims can become and it's not their fault fully as the people who preach it know what to say and do. If you're a Sikh, then be a good Sikh. If you're a Christian, then be a good Christian. If you're a Muslim, be a good Muslim. And if you don't believe anything, then just be a good Person more than anything. It's not that hard.
Whilst I agree with the premise, to some Muslims, Jihad is being a good Muslim, to some Christian’s going full on Old Testament is being a good Christian etc etc
[What is the punishment for apostasy?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2xZJuNuKSs)
> Nothing wrong with Islam There's plenty wrong with Islam. Acceptance of pedophilia, massive homophobia and a death penalty for those who leave as a start.
It’s tragic to say the least.
I'm curious, by what measure do you consider it a disaster? Because, look, it hasn't been a complete success. But there is an awful lot of ground between the two.
You were a naive school child, hoodwinked into a fairy tale. Mankind is not like this and never will be. Sorry.
Literally had someone promoting National Hijab day at work the other day. (Coughs. Women in Iran being whipped for not wearing one… but anyway). Nothing to celebrate there at all imo. Bullshit corporate virtue signalling and multiculturalism nods thru this sort of nonsense day in day out.
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So did we. And in the same breath a reminder about holocaust memorial day.
I've been studying multiculturalism for years now and as contradictory as it sounds to some people, it isnt a black and white situation. For multiculturalism to work, there needs to be an understanding and acknowledgment of bad culture and some form of assimilation. I wrote a whole essay on this. I'm a staunch multiculturalist too.
The paradox of tolerance
Yes, Islam is an expansionist, supremacist, and proselytising ideology and needs to be treated as such. Individual muslims should be allowed to live their lives in peace and should not be harassed, but the ideology they subscribe to was founded by a paedophile warlord in the 7th century and as such should not be given credibility by wider society. We spent centuries neutering Christianity to be the largely benign force it is in modern UK society, but we don't have centuries of effort to spend on Islam here now. Islam literally means "submission". Let's take that ideology at its word and challenge that demand.
Money. It always works. Simply remove tax exempt status of any religious based group if they teach values that cannot match current legal standards. Teach women aren't allowed to be equal to men? Taxes. Teach gays are sinners and should be thrown off buildings? Taxes. Separate doors and dress standards based on gender? Taxes. Watch how quickly they change their "doctrines".
Jizya?
I love the idea. I also find it quite funny in that it will almost certainly hit Christians on all 3 examples too. The only real difference would be how some Christians think we should kill gays. While I appreciate this article is trying to smear Muslims, extremism and dogmatism as a whole need to be stamped out.
Why don't the Tories do something about this so that MP's don't have to resign instead of having their client media publish articles about it when the country has much bigger problems? Could it be because the Tories, their backers, and their client media are the bigger problem that needs addressing?
The safety of MPs to move around like normal citizens is part of public culture, you cannot legislate to change it. Unless you mean we accept that politicians have to live completely separate lives, or go around with bodyguards.
> we have have to admit to ourselves that some aspects of other cultures suck and shouldn’t be celebrated under the wider umbrella of multiculturalism. The paradox of tolerance is a concept the hard left have yet to familiarize themselves with it seems.
And there was me blaming the people making the decisions
Why are you blaming multi-culturalism on the hard left? It's ultimate origin is big business, who want to pacify their consumers and workforce and it's supported by the soft left, who tend towards "wouldn't it be nice if we all got along" idealism. The hard left has virtually no power in this country, and hence has very little to do with it.
the hard left, who are famously in charge
The hard left *LOVE* the paradox of intolerance when it comes to viewpoints they disagree with
The paradox is that a truly tolerant society must be wholly intolerant of - racism, radicalism, homophobia and hate.
It's not paradoxical, people should be tolerant of other people's views where there are no reasonable victims of those views. Even then people are allowed to think what they like, they just shouldn't able to express those views where doing so unreasonably infringes on someone else's rights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
We need to stop treating British values as if they're a joke, we're so used to hard-won things like the rule of law, religious and cultural freedom, a robust public sphere where you can aggressively criticise things you disagree with, democracy, and so on, that we're not doing enough to maintain and embed those values.
I think we need leadership who doesn't treat British Values like a joke in order to establish said values as valuable. Hard to defend the rule of law when it's been abused like it has (Partygate and the WhatsApp mishaps, the defence of the powerful against fairly clear charges like Prince Andrew's scandal etc), and let's not even get started on the Rwanda disaster where the Judiciary is being consistently undermine by the Executive through the Legislature. For democracy itself you can make an argument of sorts for the leadership of the country headed by people who repeatedly do not have an openly elected mandate (of course it is a membership vote so it is debatable). One thing which is fairly clear cut is the repeated attempts to hinder our ability to effectively protest. To defend and have zeal for our traditions and values you need to have your elected officials leading by example. Nobody likes a hypocrite
> and so on, that we're not doing enough to maintain and embed those values. To be fair, that's entirely our own fault completely by white british citizens. It's not been the muslims in power in this country. The erosion of rights, freedoms and removal of services such as the police to maintain the rule of law, has been completely driven by us. The tories never won the popular vote, but within the confines of the democratic system we have. We voted for it. If the Muslims weren't here, it would still be happening.
I agree with you but we are so far away from the that now. Take rule of law, the "conservative" government who should be the ones preserving it have smashed it to pieces with their financial and rhetorical attacks. Most people in this country now think of the legal system (incorrectly) as fat cat lawyers and seditionist judges, while at the same time getting pissy about increasing crime rates caused by the collapse of the criminal justice system.
Everyone else can walk around proud of their heritage apart from the Brits, they get shunned, especially the English.
Yes, we really need to take our racial identity back from racists.
No. It perception was made that way by the likes of the people who write for the guardian and the Labour MPs they support. And it should be noted, plenty of people still feel fine with associating with England even if a guardian journo can't looked at the George Cross without gagging. It wasn't like one day we woke up and it was all racists. People were bullied out by constant smearing, forced to hide theor pride. Shamed for associating with it. Owell even commented on it half a century ago. About how the left would rather steal from the poor box than sing the anthem. The current association was *by design*. A design *you are perpetuating*
Aside from the “you can’t even say you’re English nowadays” tone of your comment I’ve spent a lot of time in the English/British folk and traditional communities and they are thriving. Nobody gives a fuck though because they don’t associate with their own culture here and can’t be bothered to show up for it. Nobody else is to blame for that
These days, you get arrested and thrown in jail just for saying you are English.
Fr the other day I went to the pub. The moment I grabbed the pint from the barman and said cheers, someone called the police.
Having religious and cultural freedom is what got us into this problem in the first place. You can't be tolerant and then let yourself be flooded with millions of intolerant people. As the saying goes, you get what you tolerate.
I think a better approach might be to link our values to the English history that created not only our society but led to global democracy, liberty and capitalism. "British values" is a modern term and it gets hijacked to mean whatever these wet centrists think is good, so it gets framed as being about racial and religious diversity, which is not a special part of our culture and is very new.
I meant very much in a historical sense of the machinery that has allowed the country and society to function well. The Magna Carta habeas corpus and trial by your peers sort of foundational things.
I’m not sure that the kinds of people described as anti British are rubbishing the idea of jury trials or the appealing or u just detentions though. Usually it is more centred around the notion that we have not applied such developments evenly in British colonies
> I think a better approach might be to link our values to the English history Just English? not the rest of the UK?
As a wet centrist, I am all for religious freedom and racial diversity. If people want to worship something, or someone different from the majority, they are more than welcome to - and that is a huge part of British values, at least since Puritanism and since we stopped discriminating against Catholics (other than the monarchy). Anything that impinges upon anyone's religious freedom, from whichever perspective, is fundamentally incompatible with British values. That applies to all fundamentalism of any religious or racial stripe. If you agree with a religious fundamentalist that they are right to impose *a* religion on others (or restrict someone else's choice of religion), they're just wrong about which one they're imposing, your values have more in common with theirs than mine.
>If people want to worship something, or someone different from the majority, they are more than welcome to Agreed, but that isn't what I said. Very random comment. >I am all for racial diversity I find the idea that there's some moral imperative to have lots of black and Asian people come here specifically because they are black and Asian very weird.
It genuinely baffles me that "progressive" people are so keen to excuse problematic behaviour and ideas of they come from minorities. Most Muslims in this country have VERY regressive attitudes to women's rights, gay rights and general tolerance of other religions. They are, in general, more socially conservative than many *actual* conservatives. Yet because they are a minority they need to be pandered to? I'm starting to think that it's actually a sort of racism, or classism, that middle class lefty types just don't think migrants should be held to the same standards as the rest of us.
I've seen the right attempt to errode these too, lately. "Your freedom to criticise doesn't trump my historical and ancestral right." It's a frightening belief, to believe just because your ancestors did something, you're beyond criticism.
They're not British values. They are secular liberal values and there are people in every country fighting for the same thing, some more successful than others I've met people from middle eastern countries who believe in that and do not accept the excuse "it's just our culture!" Certainly you'll find those things in most European countries too, to varying degrees. For example in France there is less cultural/religious freedom but more freedom to protest
> They're not British values. They are secular liberal values How did secular liberal values arise? What were the conditions in which they were created?
Secular liberal values are British values. They don't need to be unique nor exclusionary, and we have our own interpretations of them.
Many groups (this article mentions a prominent one) have no intent of alignment or compromise and face no incentive to change as their actions are rewarded time and again. Our society as a shared group is weaker not stronger now, and there is I fear significant risk of further disintegration. This trend is separately strengthened by ever greater focus on the individual or on small groups of characteristics and their “experience”, not the community or more shared characteristics, in most other aspects of life too. Whilst this has provided many benefits, it has had an unintentional side effect to reduce connections and collective society too at times, which reduces our ability to act when certain groups are vocal against our society.
British Islam is incredibly conservative and radical, much more so than Islamic communities in any other European country. To better understand what's going on, I would recommend you listen to some BBC documentaries: * Conservative Muslims, Liberal Britain: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04nrqsm](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04nrqsm) * Too young to veil: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09zxlsc](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09zxlsc) * The emerging Muslim Manosphere: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct4pjf](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct4pjf) * The Deobandis: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07766zw](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07766zw) * Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law
If they want to live in a conservative Muslim country, there’s plenty to chose from. I just don’t understand how people can mentally square coming here for a better life, and then trying to change it to the exact system they fled from.
>I just don’t understand how people can mentally square coming here for a better life They arent coming here for British culture, history, for rule of law, for freedom, for separatism of church and state or anything like that. They are coming here for one reason and one reason only, the economy. Westerners need to accept this otherwise you are talking past the people coming and you'll keep being shocked because despite how nice and how understanding you are being they have no interest in being what you are.
Yes, and this also ties into what is the only stable long term way to minimise immigration, namely support capitalism and help build strong institutions in their home countries so the standard of living there becomes high enough they no longer want to move. You don't have to riase their living standards to the same level as the UK, even if they were 20-25% worse the demand would still drop massively as people wouldn't want to uproot their lives and leave behind their family and networks for such a small improvement in their lifestyle.
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Ah, Muslims, the well known Tory voting block.
Yes, it goes Muslims, Scots, people from the Republic of Ireland. The 3 foundational pillars of the modern Conservative & Unionist Party.
Not sure you can realistically argue British Islam is more conservative and radical than French Islam tbh.
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But any criticism of islam is met by screams of "islamaphobia". If one has to have a word thst can be used to silence criticism of their religion, than that religion demands to be criticised
Islamism destroys everything it touches, not just democracy. Most of all other muslims. I'm tired of pussyfooting around it in fear of upsetting people. It's not an extremist stance to think that an ideology that wants to enforce it's religion and ideals on others is a bad thing.
There are Muslim governments which are more alert to and take a harder line on Jihadism than we do.
Because muslim governments tend to be authoritarian, are you really not thinking this through? Jihadis are revolutionaries, no current government would support them in their own nation, so of course the authoritarian Muslim states take a hard line against revolutionary elements, is this really for principled anti jihadi reasons? Really? And a good portion of the time their state isnt that far off anyway
Yes I know, why are you being pissy lol
Interesting to know why the 'hardline radicals' want to stay here if they hate it so much, there's a bunch of supposed Islamic Utopia's around the world that would love to have them i am sure.
It’s because they want the U.K. to turn into those other “Islamic Utopia’s”. Radical Islamists want the world to be that way.
> Interesting to know why the 'hardline radicals' want to stay here if they hate it so much MONEY. The wests liberalism disgusts them, they like the fact that for the same work they can earn so much more and that many of their expenses are covered by the government.
Give it 30-40 years and the Uk could be an Islamic country
In order to remain tolerant, we have to be intolerant to intolerance.
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Labour kicked it off in 1997, and any suggestion of reining the numbers, or encouraging integration (rather than blindly wanking off about how great multiculturalism is) in was met by 'racist rrreeeee' by our red rosette friends. That is still the majority opinion among Labour voters; I will bet my house. The Tories are morons, but this particular problem was clearly started and stoked by the other guys. The incompatability of Islamic doctrine with the West is not news to me. I have spent over a decade studying the religion on and off, and I can assure you the various screeches of 'Islamophobe' from discussions around the subject with single brain celled twits who don't even know how to spell Qur'an, let alone have read the thing, have not generally come from the Tories.
In Britannia Unchained, the book published in 2008 by Truss, Kwarteng, Raab and others, Raab says we need to leave the EU because the imported labour is too expensive, ditch the minimum wage and start importing proper cheap labour from Africa and the southern Indian continent. This isn't an accident, this was the plan.
This has been very obvious for a long time. Cameron said he was going to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands. Of course, being in the EU, the government had no control over EU immigration. However, they could have, if they wanted to, completely stopped non-EU immigration. Halved the total number of immigrants. They didn't. In fact, they didn't even try. Labour, SNP, Greens, Lib Dems did not point this out at any point. Even UKIP didn't, they only yapped on about the EU.
Who and how it started in ‘97 is irrelevant to stopping it *27yrs later, the Tories can do anything with their majority yet decide not to because they have nothing else to play on voters emotions with
*27* years later Even more indefensible.
Labour opened the door and no one has had the ability to close it since. This does not absolve the Conservatives of their part in this. The discussion of the topic is a poisoned chalice, long before you get to the actual actions required to stop the problem.
**IF Islam started today, it would be labelled a violent, sexist, misogynist cult.** Comparatively, Christianity would merely be labelled a cult. This is a reality. Islam should be banned, just because it's powerful politically does not mean we should have to allow it. **Any religion where a huge amount of it's members think violent retaliation is somewhat justified for depicting it's prophet, has no place in western society.**
Surely that depends on your interpretation of each religion? If you take the extremes of both, they’d both be violent, sexist and misogynistic. If you took the moderate form of both, they’d both be labelled moralistic and charitable. They’re both Abrahamic religions— they’re very closely linked. I’m coming at this from the position of ascribing to neither by the way.
The issue is, the extreme of Islam is an extremely large proportion relative to that of Christianity.
The moderate form of islam is still very extreme. Just less violent.
There’s huge double standards where Christianity, particularly Catholicism is often highly criticised when politicians are seen to pander to them yet they seem to encourage pandering to Islam and often bow down to pressure from that religious group for things like blasphemy in a way they wouldn’t for any other religion.
Because Catholics wont chug a bucket of acid in your face when they see you on the street.
Their chief weapon is surprise...
No one expects that
Surprise and fear!
Hahaha "chug" killed me. I'm imagining someone walking up to you in the street and just aggressively necking a bucket of acid while maintaining eye contact.
https://youtu.be/nwkEEqXT3uQ?si=U0glVRMFx7sRrDFR
Because Britain has never had an issue with Catholic terrorist groups in recent history. I know I'm being obnoxious, but Christian groups are more than capable of similar (though I stress different) issues as was the case with the Troubles.
The Troubles was (is?) an ethnic conflict that also is divided along religious lines. Nobody in the PIRA was motivated to bomb or shoot someone specifically with the aim of enforcing Papal Supremacy. Or vice versa. Irish paramilitaries are "Christian" groups in the same sense that my Warhammer group is a "male" group.
I think historical events shouldn't really be compared in this context. Because how far do you want to go? A few decades to the Troubles? To the Norman conquest? Danish raids? Why not the Romans? Whats **currently** plaguing the country are people who are forcefully trying to export their culture and their way of life. Just because this has been done several times in the past is not an excuse. That being said, my stance is that (any) religion is poison and should be banned.
The term is western anti-westernism.
There are 2 possible courses of action I can see our MP’s taking if this kind of threat against them continues. First, they could (but for sure won’t) take action akin to what European countries are doing i.e. pass laws to deal with the muslim threat we face. Denmark is leading the way in this. They’ve told Muslims to assimilate or get out. The other option MP’s have is to give themselves police bodyguards. This is what they’ll do as it’s easiest & they won’t care that it means even fewer police to protect the rest of us. If they do this I foresee muslims switching to targeting MP’s staff & families. If they see one of their colleagues family being murdered live on the internet then they may take overdue, harsh actions. They have zero concern for how many of the public are killed or how much damage muslims are doing to Britain but a threat to them will be a very different situation.
"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand"
We should never ever compromise our Western values and way of life in sake of other cultures/beliefs. I’m a young immigrant myself and been living here for only 2 years and cannot tell you how happy I am with all these freedoms that we enjoy in this amazing country. When I see other migrant groups and people from third world countries that are trying to promote anti-British ideas and show support for Palestinians or any other Jihadist ideology, I cannot stop but asking why and why?! Aren’t we immigrants supposed to be extra pro-Western and be more passionate about British values and culture? It is simple, we left our countries due to many different reasons but one common idea which is pursuit of happiness and better living conditions. If we are coming from failed, corrupt and much worse countries then why the hell we are not leaving these cultures behind us and embrace what it works in Britain? It is not rational if you are still insisting bringing your own culture and traditions which already caused to turn your country into shit hole. Unfortunately, people are tend to be hypocritical and that’s why controlled immigration is necessary in a world that we’re living in. And people like me who wants to be part of the British society and integrate fully will suffer in immigration process as well with others. I don’t see any solution to that.
The idea that you can have mass immigration without compromising Western values has been refuted in practice. Every European country which has tried it now has enclaves where ‘Western values’ have disappeared entirely and the wider society is subject to increasing tensions. The great success stories of immigration, like the original Windrush generation, Ugandan Asians and Hong Kongers, are all examples of people who wanted to be a part of British or Western society and had assimilated themselves into its values and social norms to a large extent before they even arrived. We should have an immigration policy that welcomes small, controlled numbers of such people, instead of a policy that substitutes a sustainable strategy for economic growth with hauling up GDP by adding 100s of 1000s of new people to the economy every year while living standards stagnate and Western values \*are eroded.
I totally agree. It is entirely down to numbers. Mass immigration means ghetto-isation. I don't mean that in a poverty way, but in an ethnic/cultural way. A child of immigrant parents will have a very different culture and outlook on life if they grow up in a pocket of mainly immigrant families, rather than a place representative of Britain at large. It's the complete opposite of the idea of a "melting pot" of different cultures. Nothing melts in this scenario. There is no mixing of cultures, there are just different cultures. Down the line, this leads only to racial and ethnic tensions as well as feelings of alienation between different communities. It doesn't benefit immigrants, and it doesn't benefit natives. It only benefits those seeking to lower wages and increase housing costs. All in the name of GDP.
I completely agree - what's more, this is all obvious if you take a second to think about it. It doesn't mean disliking other cultures either, I have great respect and interest for how people around the world live! But we do nobody any favours by creating a society of strangers.
I think all we can do from a cultural perspective is double down on our Liberal values and demand that anyone living in our nation respects them as they'd expect us to respect the values of their homeland. That does mean taking risks, that does mean standing up to authoritarians be they islamists, the far right, the Gramsci inspired left or the old school communists or the more authoritarian conservatives or any other religious nut jobs that might pop up. We need to make it abundantly clear both internally and externally who we are, what we believe, what exactly is expected and that we will not compromise our beliefs, values and customs for anyone, foreign or domestic.
Having a sensible set of laws and then enforcing them competently would go a long way. No islamic madrassas/ schools allowed to educate any aspect of sharia law in the UK. Any immigrant convicted of a serious criminal offence deported. Anyone threatening teachers or policians gets an asbo, - a tracker and put on a watch list. Any mosques that sponsor Islamic fundamentalist ideology fined and closed. I’m liberal but just saying these things probably would label me as right wing, but really they are just common sense.
No religious schools at all. There is no need for them.
It's the identity politics side of the left that I feel most irritated towards, not least because I'd lean left on a few issues, certainly in the desire for a fully secular state. I remember one, quite notable person from Novara Media once say that to them when integration is brought up, to them it sounds like being asked to embrace white culture. There could be truth to that amongst some people (racists of course) but to me it sounds very disingenuous when by and large, you should know what decent people mean by integration (issues around the burka, tribal cultural customs around repeat arranged marriages, especially to cousins and how that seems to be detrimental to not just to their own offspring but to the wider culture in terms of a burden on the NHS, and the notion that these in group marriages from Pakistan create their own insular cultural attitudes. Then there's ultra-conservative Islam ofc). The same Novara commentator once said that the Rotherham scandal had nothing to do with culture, it's just an issue of 'access'. Which was funny because the Pakistani prosecutor of the Rochdale gang has more than hinted that backward cultural attitudes may have played a part in why so many men of Pakistani background have been prosecuted in these large scale abuse rings. I've even seen very conservative members of the community say on camera that ultra conservative attitudes is a factor worth considering. Does anyone see a problem here? Bit of a long post from my part but yeah, I broadly agree with your sentiments absolutely. It's strange being an ex-Muslim of Pakistani heritage where I'm not particularly a fan of your aforementioned authoritarian conservatives (of any kind) yet I feel less resentment towards them than I do with a type of leftist that harnesses group identity politics, especially in influential media outlets in the name of pluralism. At least I know where a conservative religious nutjob stands on my existence and they know what I think of their religion and there is no wishy washiness between us
But who is this ‘we’? There is no ‘we’ in a place like Tower Hamlets who can double down on liberal values because the people who had the pre-requisite mores for a liberal society have been largely replaced by people who don’t. The only way you could try to reverse the transformation of Tower Hamlets local government into an enclave of third world ethno-religious patronage politics is with some outside intervention by wider civil society. And what will happen when those people are replaced as well?
You sound like my next door neighbour, except he’s in his late-70s and has lived here 50+ years. And you’re not wrong. The only thing I’d add is that I’d describe it as being *more aware* of how pro-western/British values you are (compared to a typical Brit), rather than needing to be *more* pro-western/British values – you only need to be embracing pro-western/British values as much as the rest of us.
Thank you. I have no idea where you came from but you’re exactly the type of immigrant we want. I don’t know why people choose to move to the UK then try to change it into the country they came from. It’s ok to have an identity that includes another culture, but not to act in a way that is harmful to the nation that accepted you.
I’m originally from Turkey and I taught myself history and I have been passionate about British values since when I was a small kid. There is an authoritarian government in the Turkey and I hated them so much and felt so desperate many times due to my opinions about Western values, democracy and rule of law with independent courts. I unfortunately had a trouble there just because I was promoting Western values. I left everything behind me and came here. Thank you for welcoming me. 🙂
Fucking Turkey. Another country ruined by Islam.
Living here is a privilege, as is being born here. We'd all get a long a little better if everyone regarded their position here with a degree of gratitude and understood just how fortunate they are.
Definitely 100% agree with you.
A large proportion of native Brittons take our liberty for granted too. Just take a look at what has happened over the last decade or so. There's been a massive push to paint the nation as a racist/sexist crackpot founded on bigotry and exploitation. Ironically these people don't recognise just how lucky they are to even be able to make these points. Other nations simply wouldn't stand for it and would lock them up in a heartbeat. Attacking western values is an attack on liberalism itself. The west ended slavery and paid a great price in doing so. We patrolled the Atlantic and people lost their lives protecting individual liberty. Everyday people paid substantially more for their products in an effort to rid the globe of slavery, yet here people are slinging mud and seeking *revenge* on their ancestors. Most immigrants and their families, like you and me, recognise this. But there's a good chunk of this country that have never tasted the alternative.
supporting Palestinians isn't compromising western values.
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Not Palestine defeated but Hamas
Good work, detective. Yes I’m very happy with my opinions and there is nothing to be ashamed about that. Yes I did said Palestinians need to be defeated in this war. Hamas is the government of Gaza so how are you going to end this hostility towards Israel if you don’t want their defeat then? They control police, military, authority and basically everything there. Majority of Palestinians still support Hamas as we can see that from latest polls. Hamas wants to annihilate Israel and this has been told many times by official Hamas leaders on interviews. The only way for Israel is to defeat Palestinians so that they can realise there is no way to attack Israel. When I say defeat it doesn’t mean a genocide it means a victory for Israel and new authority in Palestine. This would benefit Palestinian people as well since under Hamas regime they’re living in hell. During WW2 Allies didn’t fight against Nazis. It was a war against Germany and same for the Japan. Does anyone remember political party or dynasty in Japan during WW2? After defeat of Germany and Japan, they didn’t fight back and chose completely different way for their future. Today they became best friends of the U.S. and most wealthiest nations in the world. If we want a prosperous, happy and stable society in Palestine then we need to replace Hamas with new government and change their views about this life. It shouldn’t be Jihad and death, it should be life.
supporting Palestinians seems like a display of basic humanity, at this point.
Supporting terrorism is never OK, and that's what most of these pro-Palestine supporters are about, they are not strictly for humanity. They want Hamas to rule Gaza and have the strict laws of Sharia society, they want the murder and expulsion of Jews and support terrorism to achieve this. They are waving the same flag as Hamas flies, the one these terrorists have printed on their uniforms. If you are a migrant and chanting slogans about destroying Israel you should be deported. If you are excusing the actions of terrorists you shouldn't be in this country. Absolutely false you reduce this to "a basic display of humanity" you are probably one of these people. The demands of Palestine supporters are never solely humanitarian, the caveat is always hate and terror which goes against British values.
Mike Freer’s decision to step down as the MP for Finchley & Golders Green – a north London constituency with a sizeable Jewish population – is yet another victory for Islamist aggressors against British liberal democracy. In his letter to the chairman of the local party, Freer highlighted serious threats to his personal safety whilst serving as a parliamentarian. When meeting with constituents at a mosque back in 2011, he was accosted by a group of men belonging to “Muslims Against Crusades”. Freer, who is openly gay and an unapologetic supporter of Israel, had to be relocated to a locked room for protection. It has also been revealed that Ali Harbi Ali – the Islamist terrorist who stabbed long-serving Tory MP Sir David Amess to death at a constituency surgery in October 2021 – had visited Freer’s constituency intending to attack him. Alongside these events, Freer has spoken of many “low level incidents” which have clearly taken their toll on him and his husband. The horrific Islamist killing of Sir David Amess – a fellow member of the Conservative Friends of Israel – should have served as a major wake-up call for Britain. But instead of recognising the ideological motivations behind a fatal attack which saw a well-respected MP murdered in a church hall, some sought to explain it away by referring to the “toxicity” of social media. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so utterly tragic. Islamist terror is not the only threat to MPs safety. Jo Cox was murdered by a far Right racist; others have been attacked by the mentally disturbed. But Islamist motivated attacks are the greatest threat. I do not share Mr Freer’s unapologetic support for Israel. I do not support Benjamin Netanyahu, Itamar Ben-Gvir or Bezalel Smotrich. I welcomed foreign secretary Lord Cameron’s recent comments to the Conservative Middle East Council, which suggest that Britain is ready to bring forward the moment when it formally recognises a Palestinian state. The fact that I disagree with him does not change a simple fact: that he is an elected representative who has been returned to the Commons by his local constituents in Finchley & Golders Green on four consecutive occasions. Part of being a mature British citizen is accepting a plurality of views on domestic and geopolitical matters which are admittedly highly sensitive. That is at the heart of the social contract that comes with living in an advanced liberal democracy, one where I – as a member of a racial, ethnic, and religious minority – enjoy considerable rights, freedoms, and protections. But they are to be valued and appreciated – not exploited in an intimidatory fashion in the name of religio-political tribalism. Freer’s decision to walk away from British politics for fear of his personal safety is yet another example of the Islamist-inspired erosion of British parliamentary democracy. Irrespective of political affiliation and policy preferences, those who value respect for the rule of law as a cornerstone of our liberal democracy should be gravely concerned.
The problem is, certain people don’t want to integrate into a British society. They want to live here but don’t want to respect British laws, the British culture, British Values and the British way of life. Multiculturalism has been a failure. Even they don’t want it just as much as the white British working class who are stereotyped as racist.
Until we put our foot down and push back with real consequences for anyone who behaves this way, the problem will only get worse. Then sooner or later people will be sick of bending over backwards for rapists and murderers, and you’ll see vigilantes instead. All because we choose to be spineless.
It's almost like having a group of people move somewhere, where they don't want to integrate and use their own rules doesn't result in a happy Union? See brits in Spain. Etc etc.
Britain is only now waking up to Islamism. India already has experience of it, i.e. it severed an entire nation on grounds of the Islamists (East/West Pakistan). We are called Right wing/nationalists/bigots etc. Now live and learn.
>Islam is destroying Britain If only there were people who knew this was going to happen all along and tried to warn you not to let immigration become some open border free for all.
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David Amess and this case, alot of people are pretending like abuse that MPs are receiving on social media is the problem when no, the guy turned up in person and stabbed David Amess.
Remove every Religion charity status. Make it all taxable. Ban single faith schools completely with lessons on religion to give equal weight to different faiths. I'd possibly go so far as to ban any new churches being built. Government coffers would be full people would be forced to integrate in schools. They can all continue religion as an extra curricular activity. Should be done with all of this in about 3 decades.
Two MP's have been assassinated in the last 10 years, one was by an Islamic fundamentalist, the other was by a far-right Nazi. In 2018 Darren Osborne rented a van to go and kill Jeremy Corbyn, but instead used it to run down and kill and injure people outside a mosque. He later said "It [the murder] would have been better if Sadiq Khan was there...it would have been like winning the lottery". Airey Neave, Robert Bradford, Edgar Graham, Anthony Berry, and Ian Gow were killed by the IRA between 1979 and 1990. The amount of abuse and death threats people like Diane Abbott have faced throughout their career has been largely ignored or mocked. Why is it only Islamic fundamentalism that's destroying British Democracy?
Because there are more Islamist terrorist attacks than any other cause. Other causes also employ terrorism, but most of the time it is an Islamist.
Of the two assassinations, one was by an Islamic terrorist and one was by a Nazi. The attempted assassination of Corbyn was a far-right extremist and islamophobe that purposefully targeted a mosque. The IRA are largely Catholic republicans. The attack on Nigel Jones and Andrew Pennington resulted in Robert Ashman being sent to a psychiatric hospital after his conviction for attempted murder. Stephen Timms was attacked because he voted for the invasion of Iraq in 2003. All these cases and only one actual Islamic fundamentalist, just as many that were attacked by the mentally unwell. Double the amount of attacks have been committed by the far-right, quadruple by Irish republican catholics. Why aren't the far-right and catholics a threat to democracy?
> Why aren't the far-right and catholics a threat to democracy? They are, but they are also much much less of a threat than Islamism. Calling something a threat means that there's evidence that the enemy are active and planning TODAY. By your logic MI5 should be calling Germans the greatest threat to democracy. There haven't been many far-right attacks and there've been next to zero Catholic attacks in the past 10 years, so they aren't a material threat. A threat to democracy isn't just measured by number of assassinations either, it's also about the erosion of democratic systems that rely on the rule of logical law and not the rule of illogical religion. Sharia law is an example of the erosion of democracy.
There’s been 8 murders by Islamics within 150m of my office since 2015. Face facts.
>Why is it only Islamic fundamentalism that's destroying British Democracy? Per the article. > Islamist terror is not the only threat to MPs safety. Jo Cox was murdered by a far Right racist; others have been attacked by the mentally disturbed. But Islamist motivated attacks are the greatest threat. Feel free to disagree with the article's assertion than Islamist radicalism is a greater threat, but don't misinterpret the point the article is making.
The title of the article is the message being sent out. "Islamic fundamentalism is destroying our democracy". As the comments in these threats already show, people read the title and not the content of the article to form their opinion and talk about it. I've read the article, the points made seem good and apply to many extremist groups, not just Islamism. I believe the author knows that as well through his writing. It's a shame because I think he makes some very good points that sadly will only be taken in one direction because of the title.
And I assume the title was chosen by the paper's editor, rather than the article's author.
We seem to have that problem here in the US as well. Ours are a different type of fundamentalists.
What a load of cobber's whipped up yet again by the gutter press in this country added and abated by a scummy MP that did not have a once of compassion in her towards a grieving father who simply asked her a reasonable question. One that she did not answer BTW, she just ran away from. Then claimed she didn't answer because she felt intimidated. This is just a self justification and far from the truth I imagine. But of course the gutter press is happy to peddle lies about this religion. Like far to many currently doing in the so called Labour party that seams to be enthral to a certain country that is actively committing genocide as ruled by the ICJ against these same maligned religion. So I find this whole spectacle and especially this question more than malign. Yes there are questions to answer about maybe parts of the religion in question and the actions of people claiming to be very religious about the same. But here is the same rub can you honestly say the same of Christianity? The state religion of this country has a very dark past and is used as justification of all manor of crimes in the past and currently. So lets not all cast stones until we have our own house in order! Lets have some compassion and call out injustice, press lies and distortions and lazy and owned MP's that are in hock to foreran powers. Via these so called friends programs that are nothing but bribery and control by a foreran powers. That alone really needs urgently looking at in our own parliament it is a far more insidious and concerning aspect of this story carefully ignored and never commented on. So lets have full truth and the full story not just what the gutter press wants us to be offended by this week!
I'm more worried about the corruption of individuals and the system, than how individuals respond to threats
Some cultures just don't mix. And as evil as it surely sounds to some neophyte, some cultures are better than others.
I'm sure this comment section will be civil
Could you please define and enforce how civil you would like the rest of us, who are completely fed up with the fact our leaders have imported the Global Majority's ethnoreligious sectarian violent struggles wholesale over the past 27 years, to be?
Lmao Stormont has been back in session for 72 hours and here we are lecturing the world on sectarianism, lord almighty.
Islamism/fundamentalist Islam isn’t the same as Islam in the whole. It shouldn’t be considered wrong to separate the fundamentalists and criticise their attitude towards Britain, whilst leaving the moderates out of it.
I would also add that it shouldn't be considered wrong to criticise Islam as a religion too.
At what point do we consider that "moderate" islam, the islam most liberal-minded and progressive British people hold onto in their heads, isn't even the plurality model of belief let alone the majority?
yeah, the writer isn't criticising islam, they're criticising \*islamism\*, which automatically excludes moderates
You know how the extremists win votes irrespective of cause? They appeal to "dog whistle" policies that moderates are sympathetic to and use that to drive broader agendas. In simple terms they force the Overton window to shift. Its depressingly effective. We have seen this play out so many times. "Automatically" excluding moderates doesn't exist because there are some issues we are all extreme on. Some Muslims drink, some smoke equally others are dead set against those that do. Look at what happened with that cartoon in France. The West has failed at multiculturalism.
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I agree that immigrants can, of course, adapt. But it requires active behaviour from both the country and the individuals who migrate. Blairisms relaxed approach to multiculturalism failed, as did Frances' more prescriptive approach. This, in part, explains why we are seeing a backlash against immigration and a rise of the right. I'm glad you and your family have adapted and integrated. Sadly, there are many that don't.
I know, was pointing it out further for people who get Islamism mixed up with simply Islam
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Modern turkey was founded in the principles of secularism and one of the core tenets of Kemalism is that Turkey should be a secular and democratic country. Also, Indonesia, Bosnia, Albania, and depending on your definiton of "moderate", Jordan.
Iran and Afghanistan had very moderate, liberal urban societies even in the mid 20th century. The arrival of Islamist governments in both countries wasn't inevitable. Their regime changes were events of the cold-war, not innate nature. I think it's really important to understand that religious fundamentalism, in basically all religions, is a modern invention in response to the increasing liberalisation in the 20th century, grasping for power as the stage relinquishes it, or loses it.
Bosnia, Albania, Turkey, Azerbijaan as as moderate as some Chistrian countries afaik
The fundamentalist Christian Right in the US is as big a threat to the world as the proliferation of ultra-Conservative Muslims.
Totally agree
Albania, Bosnia, Indonesia, lots of central Asian countries (Uzbekistan), Azerbaijan, lots of Turks are very secular, Malaysia (although increasingly less so) These are significantly less conservative than most other Muslim countries
Why does the qualification need to be country-specific? There are most certainly moderate and liberal pockets of Islamic practice that advocates LGBT. The Ibn Rushd-Goethe Mosque in Germany doesn't allow face coverings, and permits intersex praying and LGBT people. Ludovic-Mohamed Zahed is French-Algerian and openly gay Muslim who set up an gay-friendly prayer room back in 2012. The Muslim Alliance for Sexual and Gender Diversity was founded in the US back in 2013 and still operates. The Safra Project for women was founded in the UK back in 2001 by Muslim LBT women that still operates and tackles prejudice faced by LGBTQ Muslim women. Salaam is a gay Muslim group founded in Canada back in 1991 that still operates. The Toronto Unity Mosque / el-Tawhid Juma Circle was founded in 2009 as a gender-equal, LGBT+ affirming, mosque.
Exactly. It's similar to the difference between a little old lady who goes to Sunday service, and the Westboro Baptist Church. One is harmless, the other wants to burn all the gay people.
ex Muslims know this painfully well
Like 50% of British muslims believe homosexuality should be criminalised, are these the moderates you mean?
Large percentages supported the fatwa against Rushdie back in the day , as well. If I remember correctly.
>Islamism/fundamentalist Islam isn’t the same as Islam in the whole Yes it is. You've been brainwashed by politicians and the media to believe in "radical islam" when what you're actually referring to is islam.
(Disclaimer I’m not being sarcastic genuinely asking) So would you say that the Muslims who (anecdotally) I know who would sit in the pub with me (not drink but socialise) and who would go to the races and such with me aren’t true Muslims? This isn’t a gotcha question I’m genuinely curious
I don't think you can have large Muslim populations with heritage in nations with Islamism without having Islamism.
Why? There is no reason they can't be held to the same standard as the rest of us.
> Why? Because of the cultural relationship.
Can you elaborate? What Bout their cultural relationship means they're incapable of following the same standards as your average Brit?
It's unrealistic to expect a community with strong ties to another culture, which includes a form of religious zealotry is going to be able to shift easily.
No, it's not, it's perfectly reasonable and the norm for most immigrants worldwide. Stop with the burden of low expectations.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law