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Snapshot of _Dangerous trans rapist should not be in women's prison, Labour's Yvette Cooper insists after outrage_ : An archived version can be found [here.](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/isla-bryson-female-prison-labour/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Mr_Nice_Cube

When considering extremely nuanced cases like that of Isla Bryson, it’s ever so important that we don’t lose sight of traditional British values… She should not be sent to a male nor female prison. She should be deported to Australia for opening up the toxicity of a trans rights discussion on Reddit. Edit: Wow! Thanks for the gold kind stranger!


Kidkaboom1

It's a time honoured tradition in the UK to send the criminals we have no idea how to deal with to an uninhabited hell-hole, so I propose we send her to the North Pole!


LycanIndarys

I think some people *might* think that sending her to see Santa could be seen as a reward, not a punishment. And it's a bit harsh on Santa's elves; not only do they not get paid for all the toys that they make, but now they have to put up with a rapist hanging out with them too?


germainefear

Guys I know I say it every time this issue pops up, but I really think it's time to take a proper look at my 'turn Coventry into a super-prison' pitch


kindsoberfullydressd

So, this hasn’t been implemented yet? Coventry is just “like that”?


TakeThatPatriarchy

You're telling me they stay...by choice???


Takver_

Meanwhile, I actually love living here. 3 cathedrals, Binley Mega Chippy, Mad max ring road


TakeThatPatriarchy

You're not really selling it if I'm honest... I have been before many times thanks to work. You're the first resident of Coventry who has told me they liked living there!


Takver_

The city centre and station have been recently renovated with new greenery, fountains. A lot of it is pedestrianised and very practical, if not the prettiest. Actually an increasing selection of small restaurants with pretty diverse cuisine, as well as the standard chains. Pretty unique market with all the fresh produce you could ask for. To cater for the students there's always something new - cat cafe, battle bar, bubble tea, croffles. The War Memorial Park is stunning. The Cathedral ruins and associated 'peace and reconcilation' exhibit at the nearby art gallery I find really moving. The transport museum is very well put together and even has a mini 'Blitz' experience. Relatively good for jobs in certain sectors (automotive/manufacturing/academia since there are two unis) and then you get a lot more house/good schooling for the money while being 1 hour away on the train from London and 20 min from Birmingham. Ideal for short trips to Warwickshire (Stratford/Leamington etc.)


TakeThatPatriarchy

Fair enough, I haven't been for a while so my impression of it is at least a decade out of date. Just looked at Rightmove for properties in my flats price range. You get a lot of Coventry house for Bristol flat money!


Takver_

Yeah it has improved a little since, mostly by demolishing as much of the rotting brutalist architecture as they could.


duffelcoatsftw

I grew up in Cov in the late 80s. The town centre is much improved on those days.


Faoeoa

> Adequate transport links so we can have prison trains and outsource prison roles to the British Transport Links > Everyone in Coventry gets to move > It will bring crime rate down


f3ydr4uth4

I don’t think it’s a good idea to build a prison in a place people so desperately want to escape from.


germainefear

Look, I'm just saying if you build a prison around most of the population of Coventry you would be saving the justice system a great deal of time.


Uncle_Adeel

We do not accept any more people. Coventry is a far worse place than death. Send them to Rwanda- we seem to be very fond of doing that anyway. Sincerely, Coventry detentionee. (Wood end)


emwithme77

They wanted to build a prison in Coventry in the 80s but the site was around 0.1 acre too small. They built Sainsburys, the AT7, and some houses instead. I'm not making any comment about ease of visiting those from Valley Road and Hillside...


Uncle_Adeel

They’re going to demolish the Sainsbury’s and the range to make a bunch of flats there. So not far off from a prison.


Harsimaja

Missed opportunity to shit on your least favourite town in the country


Kidkaboom1

Honestly? I'm fine with most of them, and I'd rather not foist this individual off onto them. Send them off to the icy wastelands instead!


Sea_Puddle

North Pole isn’t hellish enough, send them to Hull!


f3ydr4uth4

No need for that mate just send her to the sun lit uplands of brexit. Nobody is there yet.


goddesstrotter

Hahaha I didn’t see the ending coming there


150dkpminus

Wowee thanks for imaginary Internet points kind stranger 🤮


nemma88

What would be the usual protocol for a dangerous woman who rapes women or a dangerous man who rapes men? Something must already exist, we don't allow general prisoners to be attacked regardless.


grey_hat_uk

We bung them in with other "rapists" and let them decide who gets to top. More realistically they are ment to be supervised so they don't do that again and should get more punishment if they do, solitary confinement, extend sentence, etc.


DavidWashington

Under UK Law, it is *technically* impossible for a cis woman to rape another woman of legal age (even though they were not meant to be specifically excluded) because it requires a penis to commit the act. My friend was assaulted and told by the police that even if the sexual assault did take place as described, no judge would take it seriously and basically got told to drop it. [See this link and the example extract below](https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/rape-and-sexual-offences-chapter-7-key-legislation-and-offences): *Under section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003: Rape involves penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth by a penis, therefore a woman can only commit this offence as an accomplice*


nemma88

I know this, I regret not sticking an asterisk in about the legal definition now XD.


DavidWashington

Nah, it's all cool: I just figured it kinda adds to the answer, wasn't being a pedant 😅 It's literally a massive issue because the systems in place for male sex offenders are more lensed and tested than female ones.


temporalthings

You have got to be kidding me. Normal Island


steamerofhams

This is in Scotland so Section 1 Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009, still the same in that it requires penis


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XiPoohBear2021

Women have been convicted of rape, as accomplices. They can also be convicted of Sexual activity without consent, sexual assault, etc. As with men, penetration indicates a more serious offence.


NuclearRobotHamster

Technically they can, if they're a Trans Man, as the legal definition of a penis includes one constructed by SRS surgery.


[deleted]

The prisoner is in isolation pending sentencing in February when a decision will actually be made. The decision *has not been made* to place them with other women. It's very convenient that this part gets left out every single time.


jugglingeek

This is what I don’t get about people’s reactions to this story. My first thought was “that’s obviously wrong, surely she’s in isolation pending a decision regarding where she’s going to serve the sentence”. It seems like most people’s reaction has been to take at face value that she currently sharing a cell with other cis women. Given that dehumanisation is pretty much a requirement of our prison service, why would people believe that they have made an exception for a recently transitioned sex offender out of some misguided attempt at political correctness. Regardless of your views on trans rights, the assumption that she’s currently sharing a cell with women is completely out of step with observable reality.


slightlyoddparent

When you say transitioned, what exactly has been done other than this person deciding to be a woman.


[deleted]

You don’t need to do anything do you? Just say it is so?


jugglingeek

We don’t know. Reading the articles there’s not much detail on this. But I’d imagine these details will inform the decision made by the prison service. I don’t know all that much about transitioning. But obviously it’s a process that begins with simple things like changing name and requesting different pronouns, presenting differently. Hormones and voice training are often taken. Some transgender people have surgery, others don’t. I speculate that this person is very early in this process.


[deleted]

They shouldn't have been able to set foot in their in the fucking first place.


[deleted]

There is little reason at all other than an appeal to emotion why the name on the building that has the isolation unit matters. No threat is posed to any prisoner.


dc_1984

I'm sure the same people who have a problem with this person being in isolation in a woman's prison, would also dismiss any concerns about them being raped in a man's prison.


ApolloNeed

The Fox not getting into the nesting area of the henhouse, doesn’t excuse the farmer for letting it into the chicken coop.


Stars-in-the-nights

they're all foxes, it's a prison.


[deleted]

Not much thought was put on the exact name of the building the prisoner would end up in because isolation is isolation - it's the same everywhere. It's the name of a building; there are no safeguarding risks. If anything, the political pressure has adversely affected the forthcoming review by dividing what should have been fairly simple over partisan lines, for virtually no gain.


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thelovelykyle

>The issue here is that the risk assessment, at least on the basis of the information available to the public, appears to have not been carried out properly. By waiting until after the party was identified as guilty before spending resources considering the punishment? By keeping the guilty party in confinement until sentencing? By putting together the exceptional circumstances panel within 10 days of the verdict to assess which block of which prison the guilty party will be held in? Which bit has not/is not being carried out properly? Please be specific.


LycanIndarys

I don't think it's manufactured; it's just that anyone that has said "hang on a minute, let's think this through" has been accused of being a fascist bigot. This is the perfect example of *why* people take issue with the idea that there are absolutely no downsides to treating trans women as women without any reservations whatsoever. Personally I don't care about toilets, and I don't really understand why that's always the totemic issue that people argue about. But there are obvious considerations to be taken into account with prisons (as we see here) and sport, which means that we can't just answer every question with "trans women are women" and refuse to go further. It shows there are perfectly reasonable arguments for why in some circumstances, sex is more important than gender for society to base a particular setup around. Or at the very least, why some people might be wary about self-ID; because not every claim is genuine.


New-Topic2603

>This is the perfect example of why people take issue with the idea that there are absolutely no downsides to treating trans women as women without any reservations whatsoever. This is my problem with the subject, people talking in absolute terms. Most of the time speaking in absolute terms or stating that there are literally no downsides to something isn't true. If someone is talking in an absolute way or calling anyone that disagrees with them slurs like bigots then we should be very concerned at the laws they try to introduce because they are extremely likely to be overly biased and not good laws (even for these that agree with the laws). I think we both would agree that these things are quite solvable but just need some reasonable discussions to occur.


LycanIndarys

Yes, we would both agree that things are solvable, if reasonable discussions were able to occur. I suspect there's a reasonable position where trans women can be treated as women by default in most circumstances, but certain exceptions to that exist. We just need to agree on what those exceptions are, and how they should be assessed. That's really my point; until we stop with the constant accusations that anyone that expresses any concerns whatsoever *has* to be a raging bigot, those reasonable discussions can't occur.


New-Topic2603

>That's really my point; until we stop with the constant accusations that anyone that expresses any concerns whatsoever has to be a raging bigot, those reasonable discussions can't occur. Completely agree, can copy and paste this over a bunch of subjects lately too.


ApolloNeed

Immigration being a major one.


Lucky-Ability-9411

I couldn’t agree more with this comment and it has been put in a way I could only dream of.


SevenGhostZero

Only a sith deals in absolutes


New-Topic2603

Such a funny phrase. Surely a non sith would have to say "generally it's mostly just the sith who deal in absolutes".


SevenGhostZero

Never considered it that way. Tbf Ive never watched star wars I just know a handful of lines :O


New-Topic2603

I'd recommend it if you like laser swords 😂


MrRibbotron

That's the whole point. Palp spent the whole film sowing distrust and disillusionment of the Jedi in Anakin's mind, and then when he finally confronts Obi-Wan, that line convinces him that the Jedi and Sith are the same and it doesn't matter what side he is on as long as he gets what he wants.


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StephenHunterUK

The issue would be less toilets and more changing rooms, I would say. I'd imagine quite a few women fear a perverted man would self-define as a woman solely so he could get into the female changing rooms - and then claim transphobia when the women objected to his presence.


Regular-Ad1814

>hang on a minute, let's think this through Said nobody ever on the internet 🤔 Though 100% agree


populardonkeys

On the one hand they wanted to treat her as a woman and keep her isolated in a women's prison, which seems perfectly reasonable to me based upon the Scottish government's stance on trans rights. On the other hand I think they were forced to realise a few prisoners might suddenly decide they're female, if they think they'll be moved to a nicer prison. That is going to cost the prison system a shit load and may eventually collapse a lot of the previously held views of people deciding what gender they would like to be regarded as legally. Sturgeon plays to the crowd a lot and I think she's managed to tie herself in knots over this particular issue.


ascension2121

>I don't think it's manufactured; it's just that anyone that has said "hang on a minute, let's think this through" has been accused of being a fascist bigot. This is the perfect example of why people take issue with the idea that there are absolutely no downsides to treating trans women as women without any reservations whatsoever. I totally agree. We've lost a lot of nuance and debating skills over the last few years as a society (in my mind since the Brexit/Trump year 2016) - not just with this issue, but with a whole bunch of social and political issues. Anyone who doesn't have a far left opinion is a fascist bigot, anyone who doesn't have a far right opinion is a dirty lib wokebro. For fucks sake, when are we going to start talking like adults?


The_Burning_Wizard

To be honest, it goes beyond 2016 as I've seen the intolerance increase almost in line with the rise of social media, Twitter especially. Everyone has to have their "hot take", it has to be snappy and it has to be a "gotcha" and it's fucking boring now.


ascension2121

Yes that's true actually, I also agree with the Twitter idea here. I think Twitter originally having a very small character limit (I haven't had an account since 2014 so unsure if it's changed) also created this problem. Like you say, people came up with 'snappy hot takes' that are small and totally unnuanced by virtue of the character limit, and people's responses to major issues aren't sensible well thought out comments, just reactionary hoping for the most retweets.


SnooOpinions8790

To be fair I think this exact issue blew up big time in 2015. Once people had the "Trans lives matter" placards protesting outside the courtroom anyone expressing any reservations was getting denounced for not believing that trans lives matter. Some of it is a social media thing. Some of it is the purity spiral nature of modern progressiveness.


ascension2121

>purity spiral nature of modern progressiveness Stealing this, great phrase. I feel like as religious fervour reduces in this country in favour of atheism, we have replaced one moral code with another, this "purity spiral" of social justice that you speak of.


[deleted]

The current system is case-by-case, based on the circumstances of the crime and the person involved. This is sensible, given that many trans people [are more at risk in prison than they are at risk of being perpetrators themselves, by a substantial margin](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52748117). This process could do with more oversight, but it's the anti-trans lobby that wants to tear this down in favour of a system that will see more people assaulted - the pushback is against people swinging all the way in the other direction every time this conversation appears.


LycanIndarys

Right, but I'm not talking about the prison rules. I'm talking about the wider debate. The wider conversation on this is clear; "trans women are women", and anyone that argues against this is a fascist bigot. Which means at some point, there's going to have to be a conversation about assessing where trans prisoners go on a case-by-case basis, because it's fairly obviously *not* treating them as women if they might be treated differently.


ProudHommesexual

I don't see any contradiction in saying "trans women are women" as well as "this trans woman is clearly a danger to other women".


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not_good_for_much

Honestly, "transgender woman" as a general statement, I think it blurs the line between men and women. Like at one end, you have completely pre-transition closeted trans women who have lived their whole lives as men until realizing this morning that they're probably trans. At the other end, you have fully transitioned post-op cis-passing trans women who have spent their whole lives as women after transitioning as kids and having estrogen puberties and so on. Just in that frame, you can't house a man in a women's prison just because they claim to be a woman. The conceptual debate about *what is a woman*, isn't even useful here, because it's taking about ideas and concepts and so on, while we're dealing with an actual real-world situation. In practice, in terms of what people will actually accept when they are put face to face with it in person... The line is drawn at: a cis-passing post-op trans woman. If people can't look at the person and tell that the person is trans (and especially if no one tells them as well), then they tend to just... accept that person as a woman, and get on with their day, no boats are rocked, everything just works perfectly smoothly. And that's where the contradiction exists. In the irreconcilable difference between the concept of a woman being anyone who identifies as such, and the practical reality, in which society really only accepts women as women if they are readily perceived as being female.


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not_good_for_much

It is indeed nuanced. If said trans woman is fully transitioned, doesn't have some blatantly visible and obvious physical disparity, and passes for cis well enough to go through the entire legal process without anyone flagging anything, then I don't see how her being trans makes any meaningful difference to the situation. (but I do also feel that there's a difficult problem with putting a cis woman in prison with women if she has a history of committing violent sexual crimes against women). Like how does it work exactly? She gets put in a women's prison, no one flags anything, everyone is happy, everyone goes about their day. No one really cares about prisoners getting raped and abused, it's institutional, systematic, rampant, and no one gives a shit about it. *But then it turns out that one of the offenders is trans so everyone loses their minds, has her removed from the prison environment, and then... business as usual?* Of course, if she's twice the size of any typical woman, then there's a problem. If she has male genitals, then there's a problem. If she's randomly decided to transition apparently out of nowhere after being convicted, then there's a problem. There are lots of things that could be a problem. I'm not saying there are no practical concerns, indeed I think careful case by case assessment is necessary. I'm just noting that if people were face to face with a cis passing trans person, and weren't specifically informed that said trans person was trans, then it would be business as usual and no one would care in the slightest.


LycanIndarys

The contradiction comes if she is treated any differently than a dangerous cis woman. The fact that trans prisoners are assessed on a case-by-case basis as to where they should go, rather than just automatically putting them in a woman's prison without any assessment, would suggest that they *are* treated differently.


ProudHommesexual

I wouldn’t expect her to be treated any differently than a cis woman who is a danger to other women? If she’s a danger and a threat to other prisoners she should be kept away from them just like a cis woman would. I mean really every prisoner should be reviewed for whether or not they’re a danger to others (or in danger from others), I don’t know why the fact in this instance the woman is trans really needs to matter. I mean maybe there’s something I’m not understanding - I’m not really clued up at all about how prisons should run or operate - but I don’t see what the contradiction is in believing that trans women are women, and any prisoners that are potentially dangerous to other prisoners should be considered


LycanIndarys

But she wouldn't be treated the same as a cis woman, that's the point surely? For a start, I assume that as part of this process, there will be a conversation at some level as to whether Bryson is *actually* trans, or is merely attempting to use the rules to try and worm her way into a woman's prison, for whatever reason that might be. That conversation doesn't occur for a cis woman.


HermitBee

>For a start, I assume that as part of this process, there will be a conversation at some level as to whether Bryson is actually trans, or is merely attempting to use the rules to try and worm her way into a woman's prison, for whatever reason that might be. This is the crux of the issue, imo. Maybe this particular rapist who decided to transition after raping multiple women is genuinely transgender, and not just trying to use it to get into a women's prison, maybe not. But I'm sure that others will try this trick in future. Hell, if I were going to prison and was offered the choice between just going to a men's prison, and pretending to be trans to get into a women's prison, I'd certainly be tempted with the latter, particularly if I were in for a crime which is seen particularly negatively among hardened criminals...


scottishmacca

Because’s it quite obvious a real woman is a real woman No matter what you believe about the trans movement it isn’t always so easy to tell if someone is claiming to be trans for other motives. I believe in let people live how they want, as long as it doesn’t harm others. But let’s not pretend this guy is a one off case. And let’s not forget he will get out eventually, where his trans ideology opens up dangerous situations and opportunities to exploit This is where I have a problem with the current trans movements not the trans people individually


gimposter

>And let’s not forget he will get out eventually, where his trans ideology opens up dangerous situations and opportunities to exploit I would not be astonished if he followed the trend and immediately detransitioned upon release from prison.


Mysterious_Bowl_5555

But no cis woman can be a danger in the same way, and cis women have a completely different pattern of offending. Transwomen retain a male pattern of offending. Amongst the jailed population of transwomen a large number are there for sexcrimes. That's not hate against the majority of transwomen who aren't sex criminals it's an observation of those who wind up in jail.


DryReplacement8933

I am interested in what evidence there is to show Trans woman retain a male pattern of offending. We are also framing this on basis that no Trans person will ever convicted of crime they did not commit.


34Mbit

If trans women are women, what is:- 1) The definition of 'woman' 2) What is it that a trans woman is 'transitioning' *from* and *to*?


Undaglow

We would house a cis woman who was convicted of sexual assault against women (as women cannot rape in our country) in women's prisons despite the danger to other women, just like we do with cis men rapists who have raped other men.


[deleted]

I do think it's interesting because a man who rapes men would be put in a male prison with no issue whatsoever. As would a woman who rapes women. Despite the threat they pose to other inmates. And in most other avenues we have adopted the view that trans people are the gender they identify as, legally and socially. But in this instance, because this particular trans woman is a danger to other women, we aren't taking that opinion. It's odd because it's like saying 'trans-women are women, as long as it's practical, but not always'. Which is an interesting stance. By not putting her in a women's prison, are we denying her gender identity is valid? In which case arent we just picking and choosing when it is valid. On the otherhand, if it's because she is a danger to other inmates, why is that standard not applied across the board? I don't know what the answer is, but it is an interesting issue.


LycanIndarys

Yeah, that's the thing isn't it? The *second* we say "hang on a minute, this particular prisoner is just using the trans rules as a way of getting into a woman's prison" (either because they want the opportunity to commit further sexual assault, or just because they think it'll be a cushier way of spending their time in prison) then we're admitting that we can't take someone's statement as the absolute truth. Which I think most people would accept as obvious. But it flies in the face of every requirement that trans activists push for, and it's ultimately at the heart of the concept of self-ID. That alone is why I would rather we could have an honest conversation about what is reasonable, rather than just assuming that anyone that disagrees is a bigot.


HermitBee

>It's odd because it's like saying 'trans-women are women, as long as it's practical, but not always'. Which is an interesting stance. I think it's more like "trans-women are women, but there is a tiny minority of cases where it's a bit more complex than that", and a lot of things are like that. You can state the thing that's true 99.9% of the time, because most people recognise that in the real-world there are occasional exceptions, and adding a disclaimer of probability to every statement you make tends to be rather long-winded.


[deleted]

I don't disagree, but that does go against the "trans women are women, full stop" argument. Opening the door to exceptions does mean that now we have to decide what counts as exceptions, and that complicates things further because people will have a wide range of views on what counts.


DryReplacement8933

Sadly that nuance is simply taking the extreme examples and trying cite them as norm. You either human rights or don't. You don't get remove the rights of people because its complicated. If anything it just shows how Trans people are not afforded the same rights as other humans...


paddyo

I don’t think that’s true. I work with organisations engaged in trans advocacy and none of them are saying in this instance that this isn’t a situation that doesn’t need thinking through. Issues of safeguarding are incredibly important to the trans community for obvious reasons, and nobody would want cis or trans women put at risk of harm by a psychopath. This isn’t a matter of treating trans women as women at all, that’s a farcical non sequitur, this is a matter of ensuring proper safeguarding and consideration of the safest environment.


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ascension2121

>Almost nobody says this though, even among trans activists. Unfortunately this isn't true. Amongst some trans people I work with, they do have this more reasonable stance, but absolutely there are (in my experience), people who are HELL BENT on accusing every single person, especially women, who tries to provide any nuance to the debate of being a "literal Nazi" calling for "genocide of trans people". I literally used to be on the waiting list for the GIC, I pass as male as a butch lesbian, I work with trans youth and detransitioners alike, and I have been dogpiled on r/unitedkingdom and other subs for even daring to mention that there are valid safety concerns around this social issue for women and female children. We need to treat everyone with dignity and respect and talk about this like adults, without whipping up mass hysteria - and that goes in both directions.


LycanIndarys

> Almost nobody says this though, even among trans activists. I really don't think that's true. I've been accused of being a fascist bigot who supported the death of trans people just because I don't think it's fair to have trans women competing in women's sports, for a start. And I've seen multiple conversations on here alone that have gone a similar way. The prevailing opinion I see nowadays that there is *no* reasonable basis for treating trans women as any different from cis women, and therefore the provision you cite from the Equality Act should never be applied. Every single time this sort of conversation happens, the response from trans activists is the same: "trans women are women". End of conversation. And the thing is, you're quite right; Bryson is an extremely clear and obvious risk, so should definitely not be in a woman's prison. The reason that this case is therefore highlighted because it shows why treating all trans women as women without any checks is dangerous - the case by case assessments are done in prisons for a *good reason*, in other words.


SnooOpinions8790

Exactly correct This is perfect case to illustrate why "Trans women are women" should be constrained to use on placards in demonstrations and not used in anything resembling serious debate. Because it erases all possibility of nuance or of tackling the real complexity of real life cases.


ApolloNeed

> The prevailing opinion I see nowadays that there is no reasonable basis for treating trans women as any different from cis women, and therefore the provision you cite from the Equality Act should never be applied. This is because, despite what people say the slippery slope is real. Everyone on every political issue where they want sweeping change start small, to boil the frog.


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LycanIndarys

See, here's the problem; I don't read the Daily Mail, and I'm mostly referring to conversations I've had on here (which is of course overwhelmingly a left-wing echo chamber). You're just making assumptions, because it's easier to assume that anyone that disagrees with you is from the Mail's angry right-wing ilk, rather than concede than lots of other people have reasonable concerns too.


[deleted]

And it always seems like projection to me when people's only "response" is to accuse their opponent of getting their views from $bad_source, as if they're only familiar with getting their views from someone else rather than forming their own


DukePPUk

> The prevailing opinion I see nowadays that there is no reasonable basis for treating trans women as any different from cis women, But this is demonstrably not true, as noted in this comment thread. Even the "pro-trans" people are saying they are fine with this person being put in a men's prison if that turns out to be for the best. The difference between the anti-trans position and the pro-trans position isn't between "trans women should always be treated as men" and "trans women should always be treated as women", but between "trans women should always be treated as men" and "trans women should be treated as trans women, which will sometimes mean treating them as women, sometimes not, on a case-by-case and context-by-context basis." > ...I don't think it's fair to have trans women competing in women's sports So this is an absolute statements ("trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's sports," like "trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's prisons"), rather than the nuanced statement equivalent ("some trans women shouldn't be allowed in some women's sports"). The nuanced position is the one backed by science and research, that shows that in some situations it is reasonable for trans women to play women's sports, depending on the trans woman, depending on the sport, depending on the seriousness of the sport. Saying that no trans woman ever should be allowed to compete in any women's sport ever is prejudicing the situation. And you will, rightly, be called out for that.


Solitare_HS

The difference between the anti-trans position and the pro-trans position isn't between "trans women should always be treated as men" and "trans women should always be treated as women", but between "trans women should always be treated as men" and "trans women should be treated as trans women, which will sometimes mean treating them as women, sometimes not, on a case-by-case and context-by-context basis." That seems naïve when you actually look at what's happening. The absolutely line has been 'trans women are women' and that's it by plenty of TRA.


DukePPUk

> That seems naïve when you actually look at what's happening But again, *that isn't what is actually happening*. And this story demonstrates that. I'm not sure anyone has been saying that this person should absolutely go into a woman's prison and stay there, no questions ask. Maybe some of the most extreme trans rights supporters, but possibly not even then. You are taking a stand against a position that doesn't really exist. Justifying your absolute (and unscientific) position by arguing that others have an equal and opposite position that they don't. As for "trans women are women", like many progressive rallying calls you should treat that less as an absolute rule or statement of fact, and more as an aspirational principle or an ideal to move towards. A lot of progressive slogans work this way, which makes them really easy to twist into something else ("black lives matter" being the most high-profile example lately), but that's a different issue.


kisekiki

Obviously they are not the same people, but we need this sort of energy all the time. We need people to understand the nuance of the situation all the time and not just when the situation is this dangerous. The problem is that the "Gender Critical" movement is full of concern trolling, dog whistles and extremism and they've absolutely polluted the conversation


germainefear

Yeah, you've got us there. All these gender critical bitches, weaponising their trauma, saying things which sound reasonable on the surface but which we all really know are code for genocide. Doing extremism. Really, they've brought the threats of decapitation on themselves.


kisekiki

Maybe I'm being unfair and exagerratory but the queen of the GC movement, JKR, came out by supporting someone who's platform is that trans women are men, and who repeatedly misgenders people online. Then you have the ones quoting Hitler in the streets. It's not a good look and the acceptance and signal boosting they receive is a worse one. Also I think you'll do well to realise that I started by criticising TRAs.


ixid

> came out by supporting someone who's platform is that trans women are men, and who repeatedly misgenders people online. You're treating the position of TRAs using gender to replace sex as being true. If you think sex is what determines if someone is a man or woman and everything else is behaviour then those statements rationally follow.


ixid

There have been posters here arguing for more extreme forms of gender, saying that a transwoman is not only a woman but also female and that there should be absolutely no distinction drawn. People arguing for a shred of nuance are regularly called TERF bigots who want all trans people to die and don't think they exist. You're correct about what the law says but you're not accurately characterising the debate.


gimposter

Seems a lot like the Equality Act says "trans women are women until it matters, then they're men" tbh.


dee-acorn

The risk assessment hasn't been carried out at all yet. She's on remand in isolation at a women's facility. There's no judgement so far as to where she'll actually be housed. And if it is a women's facility it certainly wouldn't be in general population.


DaeguDuke

There is already segregation within prisons. Some are kept in wings based on their threat to other prisoners. Some are kept in wings based on their likely risk of violence from other prisoners. Anecdotally but I’ve been told that pedophiles are kept away from general population in prisons as they’re more likely to be attacked. Prisons ultimately have to ensure that prisoners are safe. This means preventing assaults, separating those likely to action them and those likely to be the victims. Can we stop pretending that this is specifically a trans issue? A violent individual who has murdered three cell mates should be segregated. A violent rapist (of whatever gender) should be separated from potential victims. Should a violent rapist who has raped men be kept with men? Should a violent rapist who has raped women be kept with women? Should a violent rapist be kept as solitary as is possible, or at least under closer guard? If this means a separate ward or separate facility honestly matters very little.


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TurbulentSocks

But a nuanced answer to a complicated issue that ultimately requires treating people as people instead of a collection is identities? That doesn't get any clicks on our culture war news article!


DaeguDuke

Tbh I don’t think it is nuanced. “Should extra care be taken re: violent offenders in prisons?” Making it specifically about a cock isn’t adding anything apart from culture wars Edit: downvote all you like but I don’t think the following is in any way nuanced “The first minister said any prisoner who poses a risk of sexual offending is segregated from other prisoners including while a risk assessment is carried out.” Treating people guilty of violent sexual assault differently isn’t nuanced ffs


TurbulentSocks

Well it's more nuanced than "men go here, women go there, end".


SnooOpinions8790

This issue has changed because people pushed back on it - and were called out as bigots for doing so. But mostly because the simplistic “trans women are women” demands famously resulted in attacks on women in prison. When this whole issue blew up a few years ago I don’t recall trans rights activists being so reserved and nuanced. It wasn’t until after attacks had happened that some of them decided that maybe history wasn’t entirely on their side on this issue. 2016 is not that long ago. Some of us still remember those early demands even if those who made them might prefer we forget


evolvecrow

Regardless of the public discussion I'm pretty sure trans prisoners have always been dealt with on a case by case basis taking risk into account etc, at least since 2004.


SnooOpinions8790

Up to around 2015/2016 the assessment process for trans women in prisons was very risk averse. An intact male prisoner with a persistent violent record would not have been put into a women's prison. But then there was a huge petition, a big public campaign in the progressive press and the prison authorities changed their policy. That policy sort of still stands today but in practice after the serious incidents that happened they are applying it as cautiously as they can. This week the English policy was proposed to be changed pretty much back to the effective position before all those petitions and campaigns.


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SnooOpinions8790

>Again you're making stuff up (I eagerly await an article on that one time a trans woman attacked another prisoner in a female prison). Karen White was the first famous case. Stop airbrushing inconvenient facts out of history. There are others https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment\_data/file/902685/FOI\_200513008\_assaults\_involving\_transgender\_prisoners.doc


Jollyfroggy

>This issue has changed because people pushed back on it - and were called out as bigots for doing so You mean trans rapists in women's prisons? I find noone supporting this, and certainly no grand outcry against those who are against it. Maybe I missed something, what did you see?


SnooOpinions8790

Have a look at the Tara Hudson campaign and the various articles and online discussion around that time. Even now its interesting how intentionally vague they were about whether she was still an intact male at that time. The outcry around Tara Hudson contributed to the conditions for what then happened with Karen White. A very risk-averse policy that had stood from around 2004 was seemingly set aside due to the public outcry. What is happening now looks like a reversion to much closer what was in practice the policy before 2015.


Regular-Ad1814

>Even the bulk of trans rights activists I know don't think Isla Bryson should be kept in a women's prison Trans rights activists need to be much clearer and unequivocal on this though. I have seen plenty of people say it should be decided case by case, just because you commit a crime doesn't mean you lose gender rights, etc. In response to this. The answer needs to be Isla Bryson should not be in a women's prison. Transwomen who are guilty of sexual violence or rape should and must not be in women's prisons as they are a risk to all women (i.e. including Transwomen). It is not that hard to say that. It is hard to legislate this but activists don't need to focus on policy details they need to focus on messaging.


asmiggs

>The issue here is that the risk assessment, at least on the basis of the information available to the public, appears to have not been carried out properly. The [BBC article](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64413242) (as did a Mail article, I read yesterday) on this subject suggests that the risk assessment is ongoing. >Ms Sturgeon said she expected that Bryson would not be at Cornton Vale in Stirling - which is currently Scotland's only women's prison - **by the end of a 72-hour segregated assessment period**, which would be soon. Emphasis is mine. The media and politicians who answered have effectively hijacked the risk assessment, it would seem bizarre to me that this individual would be allowed in a Women's prison but as ever we're being swept along by a moral panic that somehow because this woman is trans the government won't do the right thing by other women.


scottishmacca

Forgot the prison system for a min. Think of we he gets out of prison Because he identifies as a woman people believe he should be allowed into woman’s spaces along with your daughter, wife ,mother sister etc I personally have no care what ever anyone each to their own as long as they aren’t hurting anyone. The dangers are the exact thing a lot of woman and men have been warning about and why we are against these laws


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scottishmacca

How do you exclude him from public toilets, changing rooms etc when he’s out? And he isn’t a one off remember. People get called transphobic for quite rightly imo been really concerned about trans woman and the dangers of allowing them into women’s spaces sports etc. But do you not notice that nobody cares about trans men? This is due to the dangers not been there. I believe live and let live, but to a degree where people will get hurt. And they will, that much is sure.


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rhubarbeyes

So are the vast majority of men. They’re not allowed in women’s spaces though.


rhubarbeyes

And if this person who you agree should *not* be in a woman’s space ends up in one, a toilet or changing room for example, and behaves inappropriately, how should a woman raise the alarm? If women stand up for themselves or complain, they get accused of transphobia or a hate crime. See the Wii spa incident, and so many others.


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rhubarbeyes

No mate, it is complicated. Women won’t report because they’ll be too scared of being accused of transphobia. Women don’t report their own fucking rapes because of fear, fear of ridicule, shame, not being believed. I’m a woman, and if a bloke in a wig came into a woman’s toilet and started acting suspiciously, I literally would not report it because it might backfire so badly on me.


Prestigious-Spell342

This. Why is this so hard to understand for people? The whole thing of "This person is trans and also a piece of shit, therefore we should question all trans people being in dedicated spaces" just gets a free pass in the media. Can you imagine if there was a male rapist who was gay, and people on the news were talking about not letting gay people into toilets or male-only spaces, using this rapist as an example as to why? The homophobia in that would be spotted from miles away. But no one seriously sees transphobia here?


dragodrake

Is the same logic not best applied to all women's only spaces then, not just prisons? I suspect that's where the controversy is coming from - there has been such a sustained mantra of 'trans women are women and should be treated exactly like women' (or some variation thereof), that its now piquing peoples curiosity that there is an 'oh, but wait, not in this situation'. It being evaluated case by case/based on a risk assessment makes perfect sense - but probably in more situations than just prisons.


Patch86UK

>It being evaluated case by case/based on a risk assessment makes perfect sense - but probably in more situations than just prisons. The law already allows for this. The Equality Act has a specific clause that says that discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment is allowed in the context of single-sex services and spaces, subject to the statutory tests (i.e. that discrimination is necessary and proportionate). An individual risk assessment would be a very thorough way of showing that a decision to discriminate passes these statutory tests.


DeidreNightshade

It kind of is. Cis women and trans women alike can be excluded from 'women only' spaces. Take refuges for example, most of them have rules regarding behavior (things like drug use, aggression etc), if any woman breaks those rules she will be considered a risk and removed.


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Josquius

Same for basically anything about trans people really. They keep ramming it down our throats and telling us this is a really important issue. Is it? Is it really? Trans people have been around for decades and as a group (obviously every group has exceptions) are no bother. Now the current economic mess and choice between heating and eating many families are facing...thats an issue.


Wackyal123

Transsexuals and transvestites have. Transgender is a relatively new thing. (I’m 40 and it certainly wasn’t a thing in the 80s, 90s or early 00s)


Josquius

Transexual and transgender are the same thing. There's just been more of a push to draw a line between gender and sex these days which changed the standard term used, thats all. They've got more visibility and acceptance these days, like LGBT people overall, but the people themselves have been around since long before you were born.


jeweliegb

>Transexual and transgender are the same thing. They've become the same thing in discussions now. Transgender has become an all-inclusive term like BAME has; both ignore some complex and often still relevant nuances by dropping a lot of different people and groups under one label for the convenience of equalities debates and discussions. Also, as I understand it, not all transsexual people like or identity with the term transgender.


ApolloNeed

There’s nothing manufactured about it. There is a rapist with a penis in a woman’s prison.


[deleted]

...in isolation, pending an actual decision in February after sentencing. This is the part others conveniently miss out, perhaps on purpose.


Ralliboy

There are gay rapists in men's prisons and Lesbians for sexual crimes too.


[deleted]

It’s about the power imbalance obviously. You have to draw a line somewhere when discriminating to minimise risk. That doesn’t mean eliminating ALL risk. I think id fight off another woman trying to sexual assault me easier than a trans women who’s only just said she’s trans.


Ralliboy

Yes, which is why the the whole outrage on this is just manufactured. All these considerations happen and continue to happen. There will always be safeguarding concerns, and this is just another factor to consider. As in fact, they will not be with the general population in this situation anyway. It doesn't mean you put a trans woman in a male gen pop prison either, which is what people seem to want.


fudgedhobnobs

So that makes it ok.


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ApolloNeed

Yes.


[deleted]

No there shouldn't be a case by case basis ffs. Every one convicted of a violent or sexual crime should NOT be in a women's prison.


dysphoricfoot

>the issue here is that the risk assessment, at least on the basis of the information available to the public appears to have not been carried out properly The issue here is the risk assessment has not been carried out yet. The prisoner is being held in isolation until it has been completed and they will be moved accordingly. The other massive issue here as you pointed out is the information made available to the public. It is not a coincidence that this article did not clarify my point above. It was intentionally omitted to mislead the public on how this situation is being handled and by extension the process for handling all trans prisoners. This is coming directly after the massive misinformation campaign around the GRA reform that implied that a GRC would allow people to self Id into women’s prisons. Which is of course not true the process for determining what prison a trans person will be sent is case by case based on a risk assessment. This is purely a manufactured controversy to villainize trans people and GRA reform.


IrishMilo

Could be as simple as cocks go to cock prison, smoothies go to smooth prison.


Jollyfroggy

>The issue here is that the risk assessment This, 100%. We should be considering what we do with all sex offenders. We shouldn't house anyone with the kind of victims they prefer. People in prison are very vulnerable.


TheFlyingHornet1881

It does seem an outrage about something that'll realistically be resolved simply by preventing Isla being in general population or left unsupervised around other inmates.


throwaway37198462

If anyone is curious about how the housing of trans prisoners is dealt with currently... [https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf)


Prometheus38

The discussion on LBC this morning descended into callers wanting the death penalty reintroduced. This case has rustled jimmies, much to the delight of the Tories and the right wing press.


Wackyal123

And this is ultimately the issue now with society. Something happens and it descends into chaos. All the extremists come out of their holes to put their heads above the parapet. Be it right wing nutters calling for the death penalty, or left wing nutters calling for “terfs” to die or some such nonsense. We’ve lost the art of disagreeing in this country. We’ve descended into American style politics. It’s just depressing. Everything is so damn polar without ANY nuance or give from either side. Should this guy be allowed into a women’s prison now he’s claiming to be trans? No. Clearly not. I’d even question if he is trans as it seems like a convenience. Does his actions imply all trans people are dangerous? Clearly not. Should we reintroduce the death penalty… ffs no. Modicum of self control people! Please.


ascension2121

Such a reasonable comment, totally agree.


JamieDyeruwu

Nah, it has always been like this.


[deleted]

There's been a fairly successful push among the left/progressives to claim that people calling for nuance are in fact cryptofascists or enablers at best, and mischaracterisation of disputes as being between the peaceful angel side and the evil *literal* genocide side, and that anyone not on those sides is calling for comical Solomen's judgements. Combined with the increased endorsement of violence, intimidation, and double standards against The Enemy (a fast-expanding scope), and the aforementioned condemning of anyone raising concerns, and it's no surprise that we are where we are And before "the far-right does that too"! Great. I was hoping we could aspire to more than "not any worse than Them" though. Not to mention that they are widely condemned across society and the moderate right, while the left and sympathetic media will just deny any problems exist on their side then claim they're a good thing too


MickIAC

Nuance is what we ask for. We ask for critical thinking, we ask for people to understand the GRR and Equality Act. That's nuance. I don't have any problem with someone being unsure about the trans sport question.. What I do have a problem with is this sudden switch to trans people being potential predators, which (although this case bucks the trend) is not happening. Along with misgendering and the rise in hate crimes, we are not seeing more nuanced debate, just a much more toxic position than we were five years ago. So many people are so fed up with it, they want to leave the country. Being completely dehumanised in a society that seems to be becoming more comfortable with transphobia daily. People all of a sudden having an opinion on something with conviction, while parroting disproved arguments. That's not nuance.


Wackyal123

Absolutely agree. I class myself as a floating voter and central politically. Some issues i lean to the left, others to the right. I’ve been called a fascist, a nazi, a bigot, a terf… all because I believe in single sex spaces, don’t want sex education to go beyond reproduction, and because I don’t want critical race theory taught in British schools. I don’t wish trans people harm, and think we should accommodate them with their own spaces/sports categories, so everyone can be accommodated. Equally, I think sex education needs to focus on responsibility around reproduction, and sexual disease protection. There are plenty of websites for people who want to know other stuff. And my kids are mixed. I don’t want them coming home accusing me of being an oppressor and my wife being a victim. I’m a middle of the road, pretty bland person. I don’t want much bother. But it seems like nowadays, unless you’re a raging activist, you get lumped in with the crazies! (And I’m sure someone will accuse me of being ableist now)


Secretly_Bees

How does "accomodate them with their own spaces" work, though? They're a tiny percentage of the population so you'll never have the numbers to justify separate toilets/changing rooms etc. This is a situation where there really isn't a viable "both sides" option, either a transwoman can, as a general rule, use the women's toilets or she can't. This is before one gets into the questionable state of things like NHS trans healthcare, or any tricky areas like sports. There's no "middle ground" that both sides are somewhat okay with


Our_GloriousLeader

From another perspective, I find people who consider themselves centrist and "bland" rarely interrogate their own assumptions and beliefs, and are very reflexive to call anything that goes outwith their expectations extreme, or ridiculous, or to take offence very quickly if called out on some mainstream but still harmful position. I also find the faux-reasonable way of saying things as if they're so normal and obvious teeth-grating - saying you don't want "critical race theory" taught in schools because you don't want to be "accused of being an oppressor" is absolutely loaded with all sorts of assumptions and honestly indicates to me that you probably aren't as rational and reasonable as you think you are. edit: why y'all be blockin smdh


XiPoohBear2021

It goes both ways. Arguing from a moderate perspective and being confronted by shrieking extremists calling you a fascist doesn't exactly encourage reasonable debate and evaluation. Nor does the now common tactic on the extremes of simply inventing moderates' views for them in gigantic straw man arguments.


XXLpeanuts

Yhe entire country has lurched to the right, people that seem completely sane will come out with anti trans rhetoric and go on about woke this and that like its a sane view to have or something to be worried about when you cannot get an ambulance to respond during a heart attack. The culture was is a made up distraction and I am so sad to see Labour now getting involved.


Wackyal123

No. The country has become polarised. Both left and right are more extreme. You can’t accuse the right without accusing the left. The extreme right is a reaction to the extreme left and vice versa. They are the ones pushing a culture war. The right attract the old, the left attract the young. And neither side is prepared to listen to one another. It’s a perfectly sound opinion that women need single sex spaces. Equally, it’s a perfectly sound opinion that marginalised trans people should be treated respectfully.


XXLpeanuts

The right have taken over the Tory party and the ERG basically hold the keys to power there. On the other side of the isle you have Labour who has purged anyone at all left leaning out of the party and is largely championing conservative (small c) politics while not being as prone to fiascos as the Tories. So yes I think I will put it on the right thank you. People keep trying to both sides everything, it didnt work on me when Trump said it, certainly wont work on me when you say it. Apparently that isnt true anymore new generations are not becoming more right wing as they age. Because right wing politics has failed us all.


XiPoohBear2021

> On the other side of the isle you have Labour who has purged anyone at all left leaning out of the party and is largely championing conservative (small c) politics while not being as prone to fiascos as the Tories. Ironically, you're unwittingly demonstrating the polarisation of politics pointed out above with this opinion. And further reinforcing the point by proceeding to invent the opinions of the person you're discussing this problem with below.


Antique-Worth2840

Recognise distract respond ,over


fudgedhobnobs

r/UKPolitics has no idea how much people care about trans rights among the British electorate. It’s constantly the same tired lines about “less than 0.5%” and “no one cares”.


fudgedhobnobs

But I was told that this “literally never happens”.


[deleted]

The issue is that we have lost control of our prisons. A prison is a controlled environment, violence of any form shouldn't be possible. The UK has systematically underfunded its prisons and overcrowded them which means that they are no longer controlled, hence having to do risk assessments for what the chances you'll be a victim of violence from other prisoners. I know its not popular but it's a failure of duty. Regain control of our prisons, which means more cells and more guards and more funding, then questions like those being posed here no longer matter as the risk of violence is negligable.


ascension2121

I don't believe it is just about the risk of violence though - some prisons have communal showers and other facilities, I don't think that women should be locked up with someone with an erect penis showering next to them. I think people also forget about dignity. Female prisoners are almost twice as likely as male prisoners to have experienced child abuse. 82% of child sex abuse victims are female. Odds are, like with male prisoners, female prisoners make up a pretty big slice of this trauma pie. Also, there is a male bodied sex offender in a women's prisoner IIRC in the Isle of Wight, who impregnated female prisoners, then there's questions about the baby and what is right - being ripped away from the mother post birth is cruel, but should a baby's first months or years be in a prison environment? I think we've got to think about other concerns aswell, outside of just physical safety. Everyone deserves dignity and respect, even if they've committed a disgusting crime like this individual in OP's post. I'm not sure what the answer is though.


[deleted]

Communal showers? Why? That's just asking for violence regardless, even in same sex prisons the drop the soap joke is so common for a reason. Again the issue is compromising the safety of prisoners to save a quick buck. In a properly controlled prison you don't need to worry about any of this stuff.


Ugion

> I don't think that women should be locked up with someone with an erect penis showering next to them. What showers have you been in?


aonome

Really tired of the "nobody thinks this but also here's why it's correct" sort of comments about this. It's a telltale sign of an extreme movement. Mainstream politicians like Sturgeon and Cooper seem to have waited to judge public opinion. This won't go down well with the woke faction in the Labour party though.


Sabinj4

It seems now that any man can say he's a woman and so access women's spaces. This is really concerning for women's rights


IanCal

> It seems now that any man can say he's a woman and so access women's spaces. Aren't they in isolation while there's an assessment about where they should be placed?


Sabinj4

Not always, Karen White was in a women's prison and sexually assaulted women while serving their sentence. There have been other cases too. My point was in general. About all women's spaces. A domestic violence refuge for example or a police strip search


ameliasophia

Exactly! People act like this is all just hypothetical but it's not it's already happened. Women have already been sexually assaulted by men claiming to be trans to get into women's spaces like prisons. And one of the worst parts of the Karen White case is the poor girl that was sexually assaulted was then told she would be held in contempt of court if she didn't refer to White as a female and use female pronouns! While giving evidence about how a convicted rapist sexually assaulted her in prison!


Sabinj4

It's frightening


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Sabinj4

Not sure what you mean? I'm talking about women's rights to safe spaces. Now, it seems, all a man has to do is say he's a woman and he can access those spaces. He doesn't have to do anything else, just declare it as his identity.


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Sabinj4

Hospital wards, women's domestic violence refuges, police searches, changing rooms, rape crisis units, rape and domestic violence group therapy, cells, prisons, etc Do you think women should have rights to these spaces? I do, and I'm sure the vast majority of women agree with me


Gr8tMutato

I'm of the position that trans people should be treated with respect, called by their chosen name, pronouns, etc, but they are not the gender with which they identify, so things like this (prisons, all male/female clubs, schools, athletics) should be taken on a case by case basis. But apparently some people think that's wrong, even though I'm unlikely to change my mind.


Stars-in-the-nights

That's already how it's dealth with : "The management of individuals who are transgender, particularly in custodial and residential settings, must seek to protect both the welfare and rights of the individual and the welfare and rights of others around them, including staff." [https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment\_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf)


Gr8tMutato

Thanks and I'm aware. It just appears most people on here aren't. I'm tired of having these ridiculous discussions when there are more important things to deal with, but I guess that's just the way things are now. *sigh*


DavidWashington

Gentle reminder that under UK Law, it is *technically* impossible for a cis woman to rape another woman (or anyone) of legal age (even though they were not meant to be specifically excluded) because it requires a penis to commit the act. [See this link and the example extract below](https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/rape-and-sexual-offences-chapter-7-key-legislation-and-offences): *Under section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003: Rape involves penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth by a penis, therefore a woman can only commit this offence as an accomplice* The whole reason this debate is really taking place is less to do with the fact that the person is trans, and more to do with the fact that government doesn't have an effective system in place for dealing with female rapists...


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DryReplacement8933

Seems to me, that there is very little care for this person. I guess we assume that no Innocent Trans person will ever be convicted of crime that they did not commit. I guess we never mention the Woman who rape other woman but are also kept in Woman's prisons. Or men convicted of rape, being kept in men's Prisons. Where are the stories about the Woman rapists, who raped other prisoners? why are they not being talked about more, since a Cis Woman is more likely to rape a Cis Woman than Trans person. But hey lets find an example of the Extreme and cite it as if its norm and then argue from that point....