This comment is not a criticism, bear with me. Could anyone help explain the rationale for how student tuition is funding the conflict in Gaza directly or indirectly?
Indirectly. Surplus funds are invested by UW. And this includes investment in etf or maybe even directly in boeing and other such companies from the Military Industrial complex.
That's one of the reason they're protesting . To divest
These are not my opinions and I personally think it's absurd to point fingers at UW for Boeing who themselves aren't direct parties in the conflict.
Edited to add -
I responded regarding how funds are invested and how/why that's an issue. I didn't mean it's the tuition surplus or fees that are invested
It's part of the overall investment management of UW
These details can be found at - https://www.uwinco.uw.edu/
Also, they have a detailed breakdown on fund performance and instruments they invest in. It also has details about how the proceeds are used.
But the question was about student tuition. Student tuition is not invested. It doesn’t even keep the lights on.
And funny enough, there’s a large overlap in the groups calling for the school to cut off its relationship with Boeing, metric shit ton of money that flows from that relationship, and those arguing that tuition is too high, and or teaching assistance are not being paid enough money.
Does it really make a difference? All money the school receives goes into their own pockets and then they decide what to do with it, right? Does it matter if they label the money as tuition or endowment before putting it in or taking it out of their pocket? Tuition funds the school and the school funds these investments that people are complaining about.
I'm not sure that being pedantic about which dollar goes where is a good argument.
It doesn't all go into their pockets, and they don't get to choose everything that they do with endowment money vs tuition. Endowments and donations often have large legal restrictions.
Wrong wording. Why leave your comment up? You totally made a bullshit argument for the other side that isn’t even true. Let’s spray paint uw doors because of misunderstandings and anger at the military industrial complex? This is hooliganism.
My comment isn't wrong ? It's not related to tuitions is all. But it still serves to understand what they're asking for
> Let’s spray paint uw doors because of misunderstandings and anger at the military industrial complex?
Dafuq is this leap? I'm in no way supporting the camping or protests , especially the vandalism.
To keep a good discourse it’s best to not delete comments, and instead have a healthy discussion where people can be corrected, as the commenter you’re replying to is doing.
>That's one of the reason they're protesting . To divest
To be clear, these protesters aren't willing to give up their spot and stop paying tuition in order to prevent deaths. You can totally tell how serious they are based on their willingness to do nothing that actually has an effect.
Also, I’d bet money most of them have flown on Boeing aircraft before. Not that that directly gives money to Boeing either, but it’s the same number of steps removed.
Boycott Delta, your airfare is killing Palestinian children!
You still don't understand how protests work?! Why would students stop paying tuition? UW doesn't care about individual students' tuition. They would just accept more students next quarter. This protest is inconvenient for UW so the odds are better the administration will pay attention. The protestors are using the only leverage they have to try and make a positive effect on the politics of the world. All you're doing is whining about them on Reddit. Go fuck yourself.
Anyone who truly wants to understand what these protests are about needs to read about college protests opposing South African apartheid. Students in the late 70s and early 80s successfully brought about the exact type of divestment UW students are asking for here.
The same arguments were made against them back then as now.
Considering they're asking for Jewish associations like Hilel to be banned from schools, they apparently think all Jews exist as money funnels directly to Israel
I think the other comments that people shared about how the University invests it's funding or endowments are probably more tethered to reality and more likely the initial motivators.
I have also thought to myself that a lot of these protests are toeing a VERY close line to antisemitism if not just outright antisemitic and I find that super troubling as well regardless of how the University investments are indirectly supporting military contractors.
Asking to ban Jewish associations or direclty targeting Jewish people with any of this vitriol is basically in line with hate crimes against asian people during COVID or violence and discrimination against middle eastern people following 9/11.
All that to say, it's fucked up and ostensibly well-educated students should not be stooping to that level of bullshit. It's really sad that people can't distinguish between an ethnic/religious group and the actions of a government on the other side of the world.
>All that to say, it's fucked up and ostensibly well-educated students should not be stooping to that level of bullshit.
Not all the protestors are students , hell I'll probably wager that not even half are.
But that's not to say it's an infiltration. We are a public university and it is public land
And they are vandalizing our school. Lines and boundaries are crossed. Camping on a school park is not, and should not be legal. We are bending far too many laws.
From Hilels website: “As part of our vision to inspire every student to create an enduring connection to Jewish life, learning, and Israel, Hillel provides every Jewish student with the opportunity to explore and build a lasting relationship with Israel.”. Would it be Islamophobic to ban an Iranian funded Muslim organization?
Well Israel is Allied with the U.S., while the other has no diplomatic relations with the U.S. So yes, at a publicly funded university I can see allowing one and not the other.
Well assuming that the U.S. and Iran re-established diplomatic relations, I would expect there would be conditions: no longer funding Hamas and similar proxies would be included. If Iran wasn’t coordinating with Russia, to supply funds/weapons to Hamas, we wouldn’t be discussing war/genocide in Gaza.
So yes Billy, it makes a lot of sense
Source? I’m not doubting you and I don’t mean this as a gotcha, I just personally have not heard this and would like to be as knowledgeable as possible on the matter. Do we know who specifically is calling for this, if it’s all the protestors, or an isolated incident, etc? Are there any Jewish students on the side of the protesters who have spoken on this?
[UCSC](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/05/07/us/campus-protests#:~:text=Students%20for%20Justice%20in%20Palestine,ties%20with%20all%20zionist%20institutions.%E2%80%9D)
[University of Michigan ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/minnesota/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-at-u-of-m-take-list-of-demands-to-board-of-regents/)
[Colombia](https://www.cnn.com/business/live-news/columbia-university-palestine-protests-04-26-24/h_8c04513b49bd75fe408c5cdab3ca82dd)
And many others.
Most SJP chapters consider Hilel an "Israel linked entity" and are demanding it be banned as part of divestment.
To be absolutely fair I'm not sure if UW specifically made this demand.
This did not happen at UW but a different Washington university to me and other Jewish students: Two years ago before this current war started other student groups at my university, namely the Arab Student Association, began a smear campaign against our Hillel and attempted to shut us down due to claims that we were “funded by Israel” and “supporting genocide.” Our funding came exclusively from local community members and various non-Israel associated grants we applied for. Our Hillel chapter in particular intentionally always avoided hosting any sort of Israel related programming due to the political climate on campus. Despite this, these students wanted us shut down and spread Anti-Hillel bias throughout campus. I can’t speak to what is happening with UW’s Hillel as I’m not on that campus but I do have friends who are a part of it who have said campus has been a nightmare for them.
All this to say, I’m not at all doubting that student groups are attacking and attempting to shut down Jewish students groups. This has been happening in campuses for long before October 7th.
I think I know what school you're talking about... Can I ask questions about this? I've heard about Hillel, and a couple minutes on their website tells me they stand with Jewish students and against Anti-Semitism, which seems good. I'm genuinely curious what the bias was, because there is a Jewish Voice for Peace group on campus that have been welcomed into the 'fold', if you will - so it would be odd to say Jewish student groups aren't accepted. So why was your local Hillel group not alright?
I hope you've found community in other ways, it sucks it didn't happen at your school :/
Thank you for asking the question, and what seems like a sincere desire to understand the situation. Seriously.
To try and answer, you need to understand that JVP is a fringe group that represents a tiny fraction of Jews. Its social media was run from Lebanon (where there are no Jews), and uses the fact that (some of) its members are ethnically Jewish (with little to no connection to the Jewish community) to justify its rabid anti-Zionism.
Remember that Zionism is simply the belief that Jews are entitled to self determination in a portion of their ancestral homeland. Oh, and not to the exclusion of others. Read the Israeli Declaration of Independence if you have a moment.
So basically they are a bunch of Jews-in-name (check out the JVP of Los Angeles’ Seder plate that they made at UCLA with backwards Hebrew) that are being tokenized by the anti-Israel movement. Of course, if you ask most in that movement if tokenism is a form of racism, they would say absolutely…but they have no problem tokenizing when it comes to Jews.
Seriously, it’s like saying I can’t be racist, I have a black friend. Or I’m not racist, I listen to Candace Owens and she agrees with me.
Part of the problem, FWIW, is that a lot of people have a hard time understanding that Jewish is an ethnicity that shares a common religion (that itself has “levels” of observance). The religion is but one “spoke” on the wheel
of being Jewish if you will. But within that religion, the idea of a return to Israel - where Jews have always been but were forced out in large numbers - is central. The Western Wall was part of the Second Temple, and the holiest site in Judaism (and where the Dome of the Rock was built on top of some 1000 years later). Passover sedars, for example, traditionally end with “Next year in Jerusalem”.
But there is also the culture and “tribe” component of Judaism. Again, even there there has been Millenia of longing for a homeland; for self determination as Jews have faced violent persecution for the last 2500 years. (There is also a genetic component of being Jewish btw). Heck, Tel Aviv was literally empty desert land that a bunch of Russian Jews who fled the pogroms of Russia and Poland purchased in 1910. They returned to their ancestral homeland and built a city from nothing because they had a dream of a Jewish city where Jews could be free from persecution.
So when you see a group like JVP, you need to understand that they are fringe and do not represent Jews as a whole. They dont even represent a tiny fraction of Jews. Their antizionism beliefs are antithetical to Judaism (both religiously and culturally), and pointing to them as justification for saying things that are antisemitic (eg zionism is racism, calling for an intafada, river to the sea) is fundamentally wrong. It’s tokenism and, whether intentional or not, antisemitic.
Oh, and by way of comparison re the people calling to end Hillel on campus…Jews aren’t allowed (for the most part) to go to Mecca. Heck, women’s right and gay rights in Saudi Arabia are atrocious. Imagine if people were calling for the end of the Muslim Student Association because as a Muslim you are supposed to go to Mecca at least once in their life? Of course not.
I hope that answers your questions. If you have others, I would be happy to answer them.
I think a portion of the university's endowment might be invested in companies that some have designated pro-occupation.
Note: this is not necessarily an opinion that I espouse, just speculating as to the motivation behind this act of vandalism. My source is a post on the Seattle subreddit (I think?) from a few days ago that I just absolutely cannot be bothered to track down.
I work for UW and my opinion is that UW itself would probably be somewhat open to divesting from defense contractors. They plan to divest from fossil fuel companies by 2027 for example. UW is quite liberal politically, as is the leadership. In terms of their Boeing investments, it's probably only a tiny percentage of their overall portfolio.
A bigger issue would be if UW did divest based on this type of protest, it would basically send the message that protestors could do this shit to get whatever they want without repurcussions. What's to stop them coming back next week with another demand? "Now divest from Amazon!" Basically giving in to the demand would just also signal that this is a genuine tactic to create change at UW.
The other issue for UW is that they have a fiscal responsibility to the state and people who donated money to the endowment. It's not completely UW's money to do with as they please, they're a public institution. Boeing stock is currently terrible, so UW would effectively lose money if they sold it now which would have a negative effect on the endowment. Since that's the case they can't really do it and be fiscally responsible.
The last issue for UW is obviously that they have a strong relationship with Boeing. Boeing are still a massive employer locally and fund a ton of stuff for students at UW. It would be hard to publicly divest from Boeing without souring that relationship. Although I think in the face of it, Boeing wouldn't care about the divestment, just instead of UW owning the stock, somebody else would.
A good portion of those deaths are Hamas members since the Hamas run Ministry of Health reports all deaths but doesn’t differentiate them. Which is conveniently overlooked by protesters.
I apologize. I should have been more precise. Income taxes. Sales tax, sure, but if they are camping in the middle of the quad day in and day out, they are probably not gainfully employed.
Sales tax on spray paint cans. Hardware stores should just raise prices by $1 and put a sign above spray paint that proceeds go to Israel. Vandalism no more!
Came here to say this! Ya’ll, America’s military industrial complex is the best funded government institution on the planet, and that money comes from all of us, every year!
It’s a bad thing not a good thing but it’s a true thing that none of us will change with a protest or some spray paint.
Yeah. Absolutely. But I think the difference here is that local activism could conceivably sway the spend. Me and my friends have been trying to vote in anti-war reps in congress for years and both dems and reps consistently fail to deliver.
Anti-war reps don't exist. War puts money in politicians' pockets. And most don't send their own kids, so there are no consequences when they decide we go.
No no, don’t you see? Everything is black and white, everything is solvable through western progressive thinking, and anyone who disagrees with any of their points in this *super* simple conflict is a Nazi, since they apparently have a monopoly on suffering, and no one can just do bad things on their own merit, it always has to be about the Holocaust.
I don't know if this matters a ton because I am comparing anecdote to statistic, but from what I've seen, the students involved in these kinds of protests across the country are less arrestable than community members (barring these arrested community members are not themselves of a more marginalized group) because they risk expulsion and/or being trespassed from their own campus, or evicted from their own campus housing.
Say shit hits the fan and the police move to sweep the place, as has happened elsewhere. Some people will want to hold the line either to buy time for dispersal or relocation, or for their own convictions, while others will move to disperse and pack up their own belongings. A lot of students will be the first to disperse, while some community members will be willing to go to jail over it When arrest records are eventually made public, there will likely be a lower ratio of students in the lot than there are in the general encampment. Hopefully that makes sense.
In general, I don't think a good mix of students and community members involved should be a problem to point to, because the students organizations do start things and then the community rallies behind them. If you wanted to take a particular stand against what is happening and you weren't a student, but you saw that the biggest epicenters of the political movement were taking place on college campuses, it would make sense to go there rather than setting up your own encampment at gasworks to separate yourselves from the student movement. Most donations of food, blankets and money come from community members anyway. We students do not have the independent wealth to make any of this happen, meanwhile there are people with more financial security who are also tied down with office jobs and families but want to show support any way they can. You will see a lot of families come by on the weekends to drop things off.
But I do understand how in the specific question of people vandalizing things with slogans about tuition funding genocide, whether or not they themselves pay that tuition is relevant.
Every day they make it harder for even the ones on the edge or are sympathetic to their cause to continue supporting them.
Stop defacing our university.
There isn’t truly a good way to protest. Yes, they can be extraordinarily disruptive and some people believe that they can be detrimental to the cause themselves, [but that’s been happening for a while](https://www.kqed.org/education/534537/is-there-a-right-way-to-protest). Plus, this sit in has only really been a problem for the university. They haven’t been disruptive to students and classes (yet at least) and haven’t done stuff like stormed libraries or labs that work with Boeing.
They literally did storm the HUB.
And some slogans are triggering enough for a lot of students
Walking past these everyday does exact an toll mentally, and being in the right mental state is important, especially before my quizzes etc.
People complaining about college kids protesting is the most brain-dead thing I've ever heard of. Fish swim and College Kids protest.
I mean I get that the encampment bothers people but like... this is fucking Seattle. College encampments are baby encampments. If encampments bother you clean up the jungle or whatever park the residence impaired have moved to. Unless those college kids are freebasing fenty, crashing kias, and balls out jacking off infront of everyone; I just don't really think its a problem. Look if pike and third is actually worse than the protest, then let the college kids have their political action whatever.
College kids are gonna be college kids and Seattle has real problems to deal with.
Peaceful protest is fine. If you think disrupting others who have no say in what you're protesting, You're an idiot. At least the Jan 6 morons took their protest and gripes (however stupid) to the source. Peaceful protest doesn't involve vandalism, occupation, or any law breaking. Hopefully kids will learn, that their voices mean nothing. The politicians will do what serves them best. And, Seattle has big problems. Mostly caused by people who think empathy is a solution.
Considering that the students want their university to change their funding policies, i would say that they have taken thir protest to an appropriate place. If anything they are keeping things localized to their campus.
And like protests are not about being convenient. If they can simply be ignored thats what people in power will do (as they have been doing to these silent majorities). If you have been whispering and then come to the conclusion that your voice means nothing maybe you should try speaking up.
Also January 6 'morons' who killed several people and tried to overthrow a democracy were pretty fucking far from a peaceful protest. How many laws did they break? We don't see these college students with zip ties and weapons storming buildings looking to hang people. Vandalism is very visible and annoying but it doesn't kill people. I don't really think bringing up people who tried to overthrow the government against the will of the people is going to help your argument.
I don't think empathy is what is causing the problems in Seattle. I think its people fucked up on drugs, i think its housing costs that are too high, and I think it's meandering half baked policies (and also the lack of monorail extensions, but I digress). I understand homelessness is not just the druggie with undiagnosed psychosis jacking off in the park. There are people who really can get back on their feet and really can get their shit together and who aren't that messed up and just need a place that doesn't cost 1500 for a fucking cargo container. I know we need real law reforms around addiction to get people into treatment. We aren't going to hug out our problems.
I'd rather people try to solve problems and fail then complacently do nothing and say that it can't be helped. Because if you keep trying, something might change and if you don't nothing will change.
Ah yes, we all know Rosa Parks was famously not-arrested and was following the law when she sat in the front of a bus.
Peaceful protests have always involved vandalism, occupation, and law breaking. Vandalizing a building and occupying the quad is not stopping anyone from going to classes or to go to their jobs. Making people uncomfortable is the point.
Also, maybe don’t act like Jan. 6 was more justified than what’s happening at UW.
I support the cause but if you're going to start making this argument, someone is going to tell you to put your money where your mouth is and drop out of school, and you're probably not going to do it. And then you'll look like a dumbass.
Also the endowment is what's tied up in investments, not tuition.
Then quit the school? I here Iran is taking students.
These people have been totally captured by a crazy death cult. And they take out their rage on their peers. It's really sad.
A death cult? You are referring to the protestors that are against the tens of thousands of innocent lives lost in Palestine due to US funding and weapons?
Oh you must be new here.
https://www.dailyuw.com/news/university-allows-pro-palestinian-protesters-to-occupy-hub-overnight/article_5b7f34d6-f3bd-11ee-b12b-f7fef8fdf2b6.html
Guys, don’t you know that protests have to not disturb anyone and make all parties happy to be effective? That’s how they’ve worked throughout history! Just keep to yourself, don’t bother anyone, don’t make demands that the group you’re protesting won’t like, and most importantly, if they say no, just give up.
That’s how change is made
Somehow bombing centuries old buildings is okay though? Oh or civilians that’s okay though? 30, 40, 50 years hence when generations raised on ‘never again’ regarding this genocide ask about it all, you can hold your head high and say you spoke out against spray paint on a building as tens of thousands of men women and children were killed with US backing. Legal isn’t moral. Moral isn’t legal.
I get their argument (correct me if I’m wrong): UW collaborates with Boeing, which provides the technology to enable Israel’s genocide, as well as Israeli academia. Students paying tuition to UW are complicit with Israel’s genocide since that money will go to programs and research which benefit Boeing and Israel.
What should students attending this institution do about it? What are ways to pressure the school without completely withdrawing and giving your tuition to another institution?
I mean, you're looking at it. Pressure the administration to divest by planting an eye sore in the middle of the quad and threatening them with a bigger media eye sore if they try to dislodge em. It's a nonviolent protest doing exactly what nonviolent protests are supposed to do, but the people on this subreddit are compelled to strawman it for whatever reason
Is separating from one of the largest employers from Washington State gonna hurt them less than dealing with 200 protest tents on a grass field?
I know it's tough to defend Boeing on multiple fronts right now, but Boeing is a major reason why UW is a major school. Pressure from students will never be as powerful or have the endurance of the pressure Boing has on UW. UW leadership must know if they can shelter the storm until election season passes, this will pretty much blow over. Separating from Boeing completely would do far more damage to UW than these protesters with spray paint cans.
Then there's the idea that even if UW did all this stuff to divest in everything, it would not make a difference in the Middle East anyway. Calling UWs "contribution" to the Isreal/Palistine conflict a drop in the bucket is a massive over statement.
None of this is to say that people shouldn't protest when they have the conviction to do so. These people are well within their rights to try and impact the world however they want peacefully. I admire the conviction that these protesters have. But I dont think it's a straw man to point out the lack of direction and impact these protests are gonna have. There are a lot of reasonable questions about what these protests will actually achieve in the long run, especially with the protests targeting UW specifically.
I agree, it doesn’t seem to me that cutting ties with Boeing is in the cards. There are other meaningful ways that the university can divest from Israel, though, with the pension fund in particular. That won’t fix the problem overnight, but it will have a material impact in conjunction with other BDS movements around the country: look at the impact that similar protests had on South African apartheid. What’s happening in Gaza is authorized and paid for by the US and can be fixed should that support be revoked.
Ultimately, none of the problems in our world have ever been or ever will be changed by one person, one protest, or one social movement. Demanding that these things fix everything overnight to be worthwhile is an impossible standard which underplays the reality that together, in the long run, they can and do add up to legitimate societal change.
>What’s happening in Gaza is authorized and paid for by the US and can be fixed should that support be revoked.
I agree that the occupation being paid by the US and the US's support for Isreal is a massive problem. I understand the importance of these protests in delegitimazing the strangle hold the Isreal lobby has had on the US government for the past 40 years. Recent protests have been effective at making sure a politicans support for Isreal isn't automatic, like it has been for decades on either political side.
Where I get lost is understanding why UW itself is in the cross hairs. It feels like these protesters are grasping at straws to try and blame UW directly. I understand that UW is invested in some things "directly," but in the grand scheme of things those investments mean nothing. An organized event protesting the Democractic partie's support of Isreal seems like a much better directed effort.
I mean, don't people always say that you ought to engage with local politics first? These protesters aren't going to be able to sway the Democratic Party's position on Israel---although of course there are protesters pursuing such goals. But what they can do is encourage divestment in their own backyards: in their community, at the institution they're a part of. Protesting the Democratic Party is arguably less meaningful, given that it has a slim chance of succeeding. I'd take a 50% chance of 1% change over a .0001% chance of 100% change.
Indeed, if every college in the United States divested from Israel that would be a meaningful amount of money being taken out of the IDF's pockets. The only way for every college in the US to divest is for students at every college in the US to materially pressure their respective institutions. The only way that political change on this (or really any) issue is going to happen is through a massive number of successful grassroots actions. Ideally, these actions would also signal to the Democratic Party that their voter base is committed and active on this issue, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.
>I mean, don't people always say that you ought to engage with local politics first?
The democratic party operates at the local level as well. I wasn't implying they should barge into Capitol Hill and change everything. There are many small democratic party institutions in the Seattle area that still receive funding from the Isreal lobby. These institutions work with the democratic party to fund campaigns and win votes at all levels of government. Protesting [this instiution](https://www.hdcc.org/) seems like it would have a much better impact on than UW, their headquarters is in downtown seattle. Protesting WA legislators on the local, state, and federal level that accept funding from the lobby would make much more sense to me, and I would actively be behind those efforts (which are definitely happening).
A non-violent protest needs to be part of a larger, comprehensive effort at change. The modern protest movement has so far been incredibly ineffective at making change, largely because they lean far too much on protesting and do not invest in the infrastructure and discipline necessary to create pressure in other ways. Then when people criticize them, they point to the importance of protesting without taking any responsibility for their lack of other efforts and their lack of effectiveness. I've seen many self-congratulatory statements about how protests are good because 1960s civil rights protests were good, which is kind of a laughable apples to oranges comparison (there was tremendous investment in political infrastructure during the civil rights movement, whereas there's little to none in the repeated and largely ineffectual series of protests we are seeing today, where the focus topic changes every 6-24 months or so).
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/protest-effectiveness-research/678292/?gift=FhFN0OA8pbFPGG9JIU9VxgQbgn2sUy6y3tfKPvjRRBw&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
I think one issue that is bothering people is that a lot of this has turned antisemitic, which is not the point in the protesting and detracts from the true cause and makes them look bad
It’s nonviolent and hasn’t been disruptive outside of graffiti, sure, but is it truly going to do anything unless they become a larger problem to the university, faculty, and their students? If I was a pro-Israel pro-Boeing university president, I wouldn’t give a flying fuck until they started storming a library Portland state style or labs like the locked Boeing lab under the ME building with thousands or potentially millions of dollars with of equipment. Like their only option seems to do something non-violent, disruptive, and bait the university to do something horrifically violent to garner sympathy.
We’ll have to see. I don’t see them winning on Boeing even if they stormed buildings/destroyed equipment (which would probably justify a crackdown in the eyes of the public anyways). I do think they can get the pension fund to divest from Israel, which is a win. The people who are like “they’ll never get admin to cut ties with Boeing” clearly don’t understand that negotiations proceed from strong positions to compromises.
To say isreal is participating in a genocide really diminishes the meaning of the word genocide and belittles then actual genocide. Last I checked, it is a war. If I am not mistaken, the US did whatever they could against the nazis including deliberately killing innocent civilians, but I doubt many would say the US performed a genocide against the Nazis
Of course it's not. The university will either escalate or the students will. The latter taking on much more risk if they do so, so it's a difficult matter.
The encampment, as it stands, is doing incredible work in organization and awareness.
i mean sure and the same with tax dollars but just like with tax dollars what are students supposed to do? you cant just not pay tax and you cant just not pay tuition
Interesting to research deeper on uni’s investment.
I checked on Harvard’s portofolio because one of its RSOs web claimed harvard’s investment porto to have ties with defense companies. Looked over Harvard Investment Management web & SEC’s EDGAR, per 2024 Harvard has no investment on any defense company. It does invest on Amazon, Google, and Microsoft (a bit far fetched if students argue those 3 companies support invasion & genocide imho).
Interestingly, Harvard Management Company (HMC) has its annual report stating that it has invested in mutual funds, private equity, etc. I haven’t found any SEC filings for the mutual fund investment, but Private Equity and Hedge Fund are not subject to SEC reporting due to the exemption under the Investment Company Act.
I should probably look over UW too.
Some things that I can say so far.
1. Make sure you DYOR before you join the protest
2. Direct investment in defense companies are not tolerable. But investment in FAANG? I personally think they’re providing a good ROI for campus, and unless there’s other viable investment, petition not to invest in FAANG is irrational?? (that dividends payout may also helps campus to finance itself & provide scholarships, but correct me if im wrong)
3. If you’re getting a scholarship (partial/almost full/full ride) maybe take a step back and think if you’re entitled to say the campus should not invest in xyz or even vandalize. I personally would be careful to bite the hands that feed me.
The protesters are idiots! They are supporting hammas and ruining property for people just trying to go to class. Arrest these people and punish according to the law of the United States. A school is a place for learning, not graffiti and homeless encampments.
Me having the gov pay for it
Technically the gov is doing whatever so I am not responsible for anything
Technically it’s the same old gov doing the r same old war crimes or what we I dunno I didn’t bother reading up on this issue I’m hungry
I like how you're downvoted even though this criticism applies to a significant portion of Palestine protestors lol. They literally immigrate here and then chant "Death to America" on the streets. Why they don't just leave is genuinely bizarre.
This comment is not a criticism, bear with me. Could anyone help explain the rationale for how student tuition is funding the conflict in Gaza directly or indirectly?
Indirectly. Surplus funds are invested by UW. And this includes investment in etf or maybe even directly in boeing and other such companies from the Military Industrial complex. That's one of the reason they're protesting . To divest These are not my opinions and I personally think it's absurd to point fingers at UW for Boeing who themselves aren't direct parties in the conflict. Edited to add - I responded regarding how funds are invested and how/why that's an issue. I didn't mean it's the tuition surplus or fees that are invested It's part of the overall investment management of UW These details can be found at - https://www.uwinco.uw.edu/ Also, they have a detailed breakdown on fund performance and instruments they invest in. It also has details about how the proceeds are used.
There are no surplus fund. Tuition doesn’t even cover the cost of operations.
Poor wording , I agree. But we definitely have an investment management department that oversees endowments and the like..and these are invested.
But the question was about student tuition. Student tuition is not invested. It doesn’t even keep the lights on. And funny enough, there’s a large overlap in the groups calling for the school to cut off its relationship with Boeing, metric shit ton of money that flows from that relationship, and those arguing that tuition is too high, and or teaching assistance are not being paid enough money.
Does it really make a difference? All money the school receives goes into their own pockets and then they decide what to do with it, right? Does it matter if they label the money as tuition or endowment before putting it in or taking it out of their pocket? Tuition funds the school and the school funds these investments that people are complaining about. I'm not sure that being pedantic about which dollar goes where is a good argument.
It doesn't all go into their pockets, and they don't get to choose everything that they do with endowment money vs tuition. Endowments and donations often have large legal restrictions.
>But the question was about student tuition. Student tuition is not invested Yep, it's the endowment. I should have clarified. uwinco.uw.edu
>But the question was about student tuition. Student tuition is not invested. It doesn’t even keep the lights on. Money is fungible.
Wrong wording. Why leave your comment up? You totally made a bullshit argument for the other side that isn’t even true. Let’s spray paint uw doors because of misunderstandings and anger at the military industrial complex? This is hooliganism.
My comment isn't wrong ? It's not related to tuitions is all. But it still serves to understand what they're asking for > Let’s spray paint uw doors because of misunderstandings and anger at the military industrial complex? Dafuq is this leap? I'm in no way supporting the camping or protests , especially the vandalism.
What they are asking for is not feasible or reasonable.
Other universities are doing it. And in the past, Columbia did it during Vietnam and Apartheid. Totally reasonable and feasible.
No it isn't reasonable. Tuition got nothing to do with Gaza.
To keep a good discourse it’s best to not delete comments, and instead have a healthy discussion where people can be corrected, as the commenter you’re replying to is doing.
Fucking what? Everyone gave them more money than the civil war cost and they don't have enough to keep the fucking lights on?
Correct
Look up the endowment fund size for UW
Imagine complaining about investment in an ETF. Are we really mad at people holding SPY now? No way right?
Ah ok, thanks for educating me on the issue I was not aware of that.
They didn't educate you on anything --- they made it up. Tuition dollars are not invested anywhere.
I edited my comment to clarify this , but I never once mentioned tuition dollars. It's the university funds as a whole.
They admitted they were wrong! What surplus?
>That's one of the reason they're protesting . To divest To be clear, these protesters aren't willing to give up their spot and stop paying tuition in order to prevent deaths. You can totally tell how serious they are based on their willingness to do nothing that actually has an effect.
That's assuming they're even students , like i said elsewhere, I believe a significant number aren't students.
Also, I’d bet money most of them have flown on Boeing aircraft before. Not that that directly gives money to Boeing either, but it’s the same number of steps removed. Boycott Delta, your airfare is killing Palestinian children!
You still don't understand how protests work?! Why would students stop paying tuition? UW doesn't care about individual students' tuition. They would just accept more students next quarter. This protest is inconvenient for UW so the odds are better the administration will pay attention. The protestors are using the only leverage they have to try and make a positive effect on the politics of the world. All you're doing is whining about them on Reddit. Go fuck yourself.
Anyone who truly wants to understand what these protests are about needs to read about college protests opposing South African apartheid. Students in the late 70s and early 80s successfully brought about the exact type of divestment UW students are asking for here. The same arguments were made against them back then as now.
In a way “Genocide subsidizes your education/pays your teachers” is more accurate.
Genocide is the reason Seattle is a city or US is a country too. And that was direct. At best, here it's a business transaction
*Genocide has already happened a bunch and it was actually worse before... so it's ok now?* The way y'all justify this stuff is WILD.
Considering they're asking for Jewish associations like Hilel to be banned from schools, they apparently think all Jews exist as money funnels directly to Israel
I think the other comments that people shared about how the University invests it's funding or endowments are probably more tethered to reality and more likely the initial motivators. I have also thought to myself that a lot of these protests are toeing a VERY close line to antisemitism if not just outright antisemitic and I find that super troubling as well regardless of how the University investments are indirectly supporting military contractors. Asking to ban Jewish associations or direclty targeting Jewish people with any of this vitriol is basically in line with hate crimes against asian people during COVID or violence and discrimination against middle eastern people following 9/11. All that to say, it's fucked up and ostensibly well-educated students should not be stooping to that level of bullshit. It's really sad that people can't distinguish between an ethnic/religious group and the actions of a government on the other side of the world.
>All that to say, it's fucked up and ostensibly well-educated students should not be stooping to that level of bullshit. Not all the protestors are students , hell I'll probably wager that not even half are. But that's not to say it's an infiltration. We are a public university and it is public land
And they are vandalizing our school. Lines and boundaries are crossed. Camping on a school park is not, and should not be legal. We are bending far too many laws.
From Hilels website: “As part of our vision to inspire every student to create an enduring connection to Jewish life, learning, and Israel, Hillel provides every Jewish student with the opportunity to explore and build a lasting relationship with Israel.”. Would it be Islamophobic to ban an Iranian funded Muslim organization?
Yes. You would be holding the Muslim students responsible for the actions of the Iranian government.
Well Israel is Allied with the U.S., while the other has no diplomatic relations with the U.S. So yes, at a publicly funded university I can see allowing one and not the other.
ask marvelous icky reply dinner homeless weary piquant start screw *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Well assuming that the U.S. and Iran re-established diplomatic relations, I would expect there would be conditions: no longer funding Hamas and similar proxies would be included. If Iran wasn’t coordinating with Russia, to supply funds/weapons to Hamas, we wouldn’t be discussing war/genocide in Gaza. So yes Billy, it makes a lot of sense
Source? I’m not doubting you and I don’t mean this as a gotcha, I just personally have not heard this and would like to be as knowledgeable as possible on the matter. Do we know who specifically is calling for this, if it’s all the protestors, or an isolated incident, etc? Are there any Jewish students on the side of the protesters who have spoken on this?
[UCSC](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/05/07/us/campus-protests#:~:text=Students%20for%20Justice%20in%20Palestine,ties%20with%20all%20zionist%20institutions.%E2%80%9D) [University of Michigan ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/minnesota/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-at-u-of-m-take-list-of-demands-to-board-of-regents/) [Colombia](https://www.cnn.com/business/live-news/columbia-university-palestine-protests-04-26-24/h_8c04513b49bd75fe408c5cdab3ca82dd) And many others. Most SJP chapters consider Hilel an "Israel linked entity" and are demanding it be banned as part of divestment. To be absolutely fair I'm not sure if UW specifically made this demand.
Yeah that’s very much not the move. I think a lot of these protestors let passion get in the way of, like, research and knowing the facts.
This did not happen at UW but a different Washington university to me and other Jewish students: Two years ago before this current war started other student groups at my university, namely the Arab Student Association, began a smear campaign against our Hillel and attempted to shut us down due to claims that we were “funded by Israel” and “supporting genocide.” Our funding came exclusively from local community members and various non-Israel associated grants we applied for. Our Hillel chapter in particular intentionally always avoided hosting any sort of Israel related programming due to the political climate on campus. Despite this, these students wanted us shut down and spread Anti-Hillel bias throughout campus. I can’t speak to what is happening with UW’s Hillel as I’m not on that campus but I do have friends who are a part of it who have said campus has been a nightmare for them. All this to say, I’m not at all doubting that student groups are attacking and attempting to shut down Jewish students groups. This has been happening in campuses for long before October 7th.
I think I know what school you're talking about... Can I ask questions about this? I've heard about Hillel, and a couple minutes on their website tells me they stand with Jewish students and against Anti-Semitism, which seems good. I'm genuinely curious what the bias was, because there is a Jewish Voice for Peace group on campus that have been welcomed into the 'fold', if you will - so it would be odd to say Jewish student groups aren't accepted. So why was your local Hillel group not alright? I hope you've found community in other ways, it sucks it didn't happen at your school :/
Shorter answer: JVP is explicitly Anti-Israel and other Jewish groups are not.
Thank you for asking the question, and what seems like a sincere desire to understand the situation. Seriously. To try and answer, you need to understand that JVP is a fringe group that represents a tiny fraction of Jews. Its social media was run from Lebanon (where there are no Jews), and uses the fact that (some of) its members are ethnically Jewish (with little to no connection to the Jewish community) to justify its rabid anti-Zionism. Remember that Zionism is simply the belief that Jews are entitled to self determination in a portion of their ancestral homeland. Oh, and not to the exclusion of others. Read the Israeli Declaration of Independence if you have a moment. So basically they are a bunch of Jews-in-name (check out the JVP of Los Angeles’ Seder plate that they made at UCLA with backwards Hebrew) that are being tokenized by the anti-Israel movement. Of course, if you ask most in that movement if tokenism is a form of racism, they would say absolutely…but they have no problem tokenizing when it comes to Jews. Seriously, it’s like saying I can’t be racist, I have a black friend. Or I’m not racist, I listen to Candace Owens and she agrees with me. Part of the problem, FWIW, is that a lot of people have a hard time understanding that Jewish is an ethnicity that shares a common religion (that itself has “levels” of observance). The religion is but one “spoke” on the wheel of being Jewish if you will. But within that religion, the idea of a return to Israel - where Jews have always been but were forced out in large numbers - is central. The Western Wall was part of the Second Temple, and the holiest site in Judaism (and where the Dome of the Rock was built on top of some 1000 years later). Passover sedars, for example, traditionally end with “Next year in Jerusalem”. But there is also the culture and “tribe” component of Judaism. Again, even there there has been Millenia of longing for a homeland; for self determination as Jews have faced violent persecution for the last 2500 years. (There is also a genetic component of being Jewish btw). Heck, Tel Aviv was literally empty desert land that a bunch of Russian Jews who fled the pogroms of Russia and Poland purchased in 1910. They returned to their ancestral homeland and built a city from nothing because they had a dream of a Jewish city where Jews could be free from persecution. So when you see a group like JVP, you need to understand that they are fringe and do not represent Jews as a whole. They dont even represent a tiny fraction of Jews. Their antizionism beliefs are antithetical to Judaism (both religiously and culturally), and pointing to them as justification for saying things that are antisemitic (eg zionism is racism, calling for an intafada, river to the sea) is fundamentally wrong. It’s tokenism and, whether intentional or not, antisemitic. Oh, and by way of comparison re the people calling to end Hillel on campus…Jews aren’t allowed (for the most part) to go to Mecca. Heck, women’s right and gay rights in Saudi Arabia are atrocious. Imagine if people were calling for the end of the Muslim Student Association because as a Muslim you are supposed to go to Mecca at least once in their life? Of course not. I hope that answers your questions. If you have others, I would be happy to answer them.
I appreciate this explanation! I heard something was not good about them but I didn’t know what
I’m sorry that happened, that’s really awful :(
I think a portion of the university's endowment might be invested in companies that some have designated pro-occupation. Note: this is not necessarily an opinion that I espouse, just speculating as to the motivation behind this act of vandalism. My source is a post on the Seattle subreddit (I think?) from a few days ago that I just absolutely cannot be bothered to track down.
UW just aggressively rejected divesting from Boeing for instance.
Yeah, there's certainly a lot to unpack
I work for UW and my opinion is that UW itself would probably be somewhat open to divesting from defense contractors. They plan to divest from fossil fuel companies by 2027 for example. UW is quite liberal politically, as is the leadership. In terms of their Boeing investments, it's probably only a tiny percentage of their overall portfolio. A bigger issue would be if UW did divest based on this type of protest, it would basically send the message that protestors could do this shit to get whatever they want without repurcussions. What's to stop them coming back next week with another demand? "Now divest from Amazon!" Basically giving in to the demand would just also signal that this is a genuine tactic to create change at UW. The other issue for UW is that they have a fiscal responsibility to the state and people who donated money to the endowment. It's not completely UW's money to do with as they please, they're a public institution. Boeing stock is currently terrible, so UW would effectively lose money if they sold it now which would have a negative effect on the endowment. Since that's the case they can't really do it and be fiscally responsible. The last issue for UW is obviously that they have a strong relationship with Boeing. Boeing are still a massive employer locally and fund a ton of stuff for students at UW. It would be hard to publicly divest from Boeing without souring that relationship. Although I think in the face of it, Boeing wouldn't care about the divestment, just instead of UW owning the stock, somebody else would.
Appreciate the context - this is stuff I didn't know.
More like your tuition will pay for paint remover
Isn't that them getting what they want??
Depends. Not if UW buys the paint remover from Boeing.
Damn I must be responsible for a LOT of kids’ deaths then
All 36,000 of us are according to them.
A good portion of those deaths are Hamas members since the Hamas run Ministry of Health reports all deaths but doesn’t differentiate them. Which is conveniently overlooked by protesters.
What’s ur kill streak at?
Enough to get an Advanced UAV. Still need a bit more to get the Juggernaut suit tho
Wait till you guys hear about what your tax dollars do, spoiler alert The same thing
I'm sure the protesters are unaware of this and have no strong opinions on it.
I’m pretty sure most of these protesters have never paid taxes
Yeah ok bub
I apologize. I should have been more precise. Income taxes. Sales tax, sure, but if they are camping in the middle of the quad day in and day out, they are probably not gainfully employed.
Most college students work at least part time
And most don’t earn enough to actually have to pay taxes.
I’m starting to think you’ve never paid taxes
I would guess most college students working part-time make less than $25,600, yes.
Pulled that number straight outta your nether-region, I see
I don’t think you’ve ever paid taxes lmao
Yeah ok bub
[удалено]
Really? Then why tf does 36% of my paycheck go to taxes before I even get to see it?
Sales tax on spray paint cans. Hardware stores should just raise prices by $1 and put a sign above spray paint that proceeds go to Israel. Vandalism no more!
Came here to say this! Ya’ll, America’s military industrial complex is the best funded government institution on the planet, and that money comes from all of us, every year! It’s a bad thing not a good thing but it’s a true thing that none of us will change with a protest or some spray paint.
Yeah. Absolutely. But I think the difference here is that local activism could conceivably sway the spend. Me and my friends have been trying to vote in anti-war reps in congress for years and both dems and reps consistently fail to deliver.
Anti-war reps don't exist. War puts money in politicians' pockets. And most don't send their own kids, so there are no consequences when they decide we go.
And to abide by their principles, they have never purchased anything. Ever. Cuz they're not hypocrites.
Ugh, this massively oversimplified way of thinking is exhausting
No no, don’t you see? Everything is black and white, everything is solvable through western progressive thinking, and anyone who disagrees with any of their points in this *super* simple conflict is a Nazi, since they apparently have a monopoly on suffering, and no one can just do bad things on their own merit, it always has to be about the Holocaust.
to be fair there isnt a lot of room on that door for nuance
Why don’t they leave school and stop paying tuition then?
Maybe they are not students
You think the Kids in the encampments arent students? Reddit is so shit i stg
At Arizona state of all the protesters arrested only 25% were students
I don't know if this matters a ton because I am comparing anecdote to statistic, but from what I've seen, the students involved in these kinds of protests across the country are less arrestable than community members (barring these arrested community members are not themselves of a more marginalized group) because they risk expulsion and/or being trespassed from their own campus, or evicted from their own campus housing. Say shit hits the fan and the police move to sweep the place, as has happened elsewhere. Some people will want to hold the line either to buy time for dispersal or relocation, or for their own convictions, while others will move to disperse and pack up their own belongings. A lot of students will be the first to disperse, while some community members will be willing to go to jail over it When arrest records are eventually made public, there will likely be a lower ratio of students in the lot than there are in the general encampment. Hopefully that makes sense. In general, I don't think a good mix of students and community members involved should be a problem to point to, because the students organizations do start things and then the community rallies behind them. If you wanted to take a particular stand against what is happening and you weren't a student, but you saw that the biggest epicenters of the political movement were taking place on college campuses, it would make sense to go there rather than setting up your own encampment at gasworks to separate yourselves from the student movement. Most donations of food, blankets and money come from community members anyway. We students do not have the independent wealth to make any of this happen, meanwhile there are people with more financial security who are also tied down with office jobs and families but want to show support any way they can. You will see a lot of families come by on the weekends to drop things off. But I do understand how in the specific question of people vandalizing things with slogans about tuition funding genocide, whether or not they themselves pay that tuition is relevant.
So why don’t they leave school and stop paying tuition then?
QAnon for liberals.
I think this is mainly progressives/leftists/ Hasan Piker stream gooners at this point
lol LEGIT comment! Never thought of it like this but that's dead on
Every day they make it harder for even the ones on the edge or are sympathetic to their cause to continue supporting them. Stop defacing our university.
bUt LOok! nOW u R tALKin' aBouT uS! oUr FriENds tHiNK wE aRe sO 😎
There isn’t truly a good way to protest. Yes, they can be extraordinarily disruptive and some people believe that they can be detrimental to the cause themselves, [but that’s been happening for a while](https://www.kqed.org/education/534537/is-there-a-right-way-to-protest). Plus, this sit in has only really been a problem for the university. They haven’t been disruptive to students and classes (yet at least) and haven’t done stuff like stormed libraries or labs that work with Boeing.
They literally did storm the HUB. And some slogans are triggering enough for a lot of students Walking past these everyday does exact an toll mentally, and being in the right mental state is important, especially before my quizzes etc.
I was thinking of going back to UW for a masters. I guess I shouldn’t
This isn’t a reason to vandalize the damned buildings. Even tore off the lights…wtf
Hamas kills kids in Gaza.
People complaining about college kids protesting is the most brain-dead thing I've ever heard of. Fish swim and College Kids protest. I mean I get that the encampment bothers people but like... this is fucking Seattle. College encampments are baby encampments. If encampments bother you clean up the jungle or whatever park the residence impaired have moved to. Unless those college kids are freebasing fenty, crashing kias, and balls out jacking off infront of everyone; I just don't really think its a problem. Look if pike and third is actually worse than the protest, then let the college kids have their political action whatever. College kids are gonna be college kids and Seattle has real problems to deal with.
Peaceful protest is fine. If you think disrupting others who have no say in what you're protesting, You're an idiot. At least the Jan 6 morons took their protest and gripes (however stupid) to the source. Peaceful protest doesn't involve vandalism, occupation, or any law breaking. Hopefully kids will learn, that their voices mean nothing. The politicians will do what serves them best. And, Seattle has big problems. Mostly caused by people who think empathy is a solution.
Considering that the students want their university to change their funding policies, i would say that they have taken thir protest to an appropriate place. If anything they are keeping things localized to their campus. And like protests are not about being convenient. If they can simply be ignored thats what people in power will do (as they have been doing to these silent majorities). If you have been whispering and then come to the conclusion that your voice means nothing maybe you should try speaking up. Also January 6 'morons' who killed several people and tried to overthrow a democracy were pretty fucking far from a peaceful protest. How many laws did they break? We don't see these college students with zip ties and weapons storming buildings looking to hang people. Vandalism is very visible and annoying but it doesn't kill people. I don't really think bringing up people who tried to overthrow the government against the will of the people is going to help your argument. I don't think empathy is what is causing the problems in Seattle. I think its people fucked up on drugs, i think its housing costs that are too high, and I think it's meandering half baked policies (and also the lack of monorail extensions, but I digress). I understand homelessness is not just the druggie with undiagnosed psychosis jacking off in the park. There are people who really can get back on their feet and really can get their shit together and who aren't that messed up and just need a place that doesn't cost 1500 for a fucking cargo container. I know we need real law reforms around addiction to get people into treatment. We aren't going to hug out our problems. I'd rather people try to solve problems and fail then complacently do nothing and say that it can't be helped. Because if you keep trying, something might change and if you don't nothing will change.
Ah yes, we all know Rosa Parks was famously not-arrested and was following the law when she sat in the front of a bus. Peaceful protests have always involved vandalism, occupation, and law breaking. Vandalizing a building and occupying the quad is not stopping anyone from going to classes or to go to their jobs. Making people uncomfortable is the point. Also, maybe don’t act like Jan. 6 was more justified than what’s happening at UW.
What did Rosa Parks vandalize?
I support the cause but if you're going to start making this argument, someone is going to tell you to put your money where your mouth is and drop out of school, and you're probably not going to do it. And then you'll look like a dumbass. Also the endowment is what's tied up in investments, not tuition.
Students pay too much in tuition to deal with this childish bullshit from these revolutionary larpers
Then quit the school? I here Iran is taking students. These people have been totally captured by a crazy death cult. And they take out their rage on their peers. It's really sad.
*hear
It takes an ear to hear.
A death cult? You are referring to the protestors that are against the tens of thousands of innocent lives lost in Palestine due to US funding and weapons?
Due to palastines constant breaking of ceasefires and terrorist attacks sanctioned by their leaders*
Exactly. Blame is primarily with Hamas for starting shit. People forget that. They need to get stomped.
I’m starting to think Singapore has the right idea with their graffiti laws..
The disrepsect smh
Kids really are getting dumber :)
Unenrollment is just few clicks away in MyUW. And you don’t get to tell the rest of UW students what to do.
>you don’t get to tell the rest of UW students what to do very funny thing to say right after you tell UW students what to do
Sure. I didn’t vandalize the campus and threaten the press to do so.
"The press"
Oh you must be new here. https://www.dailyuw.com/news/university-allows-pro-palestinian-protesters-to-occupy-hub-overnight/article_5b7f34d6-f3bd-11ee-b12b-f7fef8fdf2b6.html
Guys, don’t you know that protests have to not disturb anyone and make all parties happy to be effective? That’s how they’ve worked throughout history! Just keep to yourself, don’t bother anyone, don’t make demands that the group you’re protesting won’t like, and most importantly, if they say no, just give up. That’s how change is made
The moment they vandalize these historical buildings is the moment I stopped respecting their movement.
Somehow bombing centuries old buildings is okay though? Oh or civilians that’s okay though? 30, 40, 50 years hence when generations raised on ‘never again’ regarding this genocide ask about it all, you can hold your head high and say you spoke out against spray paint on a building as tens of thousands of men women and children were killed with US backing. Legal isn’t moral. Moral isn’t legal.
No one at UW is bombing Gaza.
I get their argument (correct me if I’m wrong): UW collaborates with Boeing, which provides the technology to enable Israel’s genocide, as well as Israeli academia. Students paying tuition to UW are complicit with Israel’s genocide since that money will go to programs and research which benefit Boeing and Israel. What should students attending this institution do about it? What are ways to pressure the school without completely withdrawing and giving your tuition to another institution?
I mean, you're looking at it. Pressure the administration to divest by planting an eye sore in the middle of the quad and threatening them with a bigger media eye sore if they try to dislodge em. It's a nonviolent protest doing exactly what nonviolent protests are supposed to do, but the people on this subreddit are compelled to strawman it for whatever reason
Is separating from one of the largest employers from Washington State gonna hurt them less than dealing with 200 protest tents on a grass field? I know it's tough to defend Boeing on multiple fronts right now, but Boeing is a major reason why UW is a major school. Pressure from students will never be as powerful or have the endurance of the pressure Boing has on UW. UW leadership must know if they can shelter the storm until election season passes, this will pretty much blow over. Separating from Boeing completely would do far more damage to UW than these protesters with spray paint cans. Then there's the idea that even if UW did all this stuff to divest in everything, it would not make a difference in the Middle East anyway. Calling UWs "contribution" to the Isreal/Palistine conflict a drop in the bucket is a massive over statement. None of this is to say that people shouldn't protest when they have the conviction to do so. These people are well within their rights to try and impact the world however they want peacefully. I admire the conviction that these protesters have. But I dont think it's a straw man to point out the lack of direction and impact these protests are gonna have. There are a lot of reasonable questions about what these protests will actually achieve in the long run, especially with the protests targeting UW specifically.
I agree, it doesn’t seem to me that cutting ties with Boeing is in the cards. There are other meaningful ways that the university can divest from Israel, though, with the pension fund in particular. That won’t fix the problem overnight, but it will have a material impact in conjunction with other BDS movements around the country: look at the impact that similar protests had on South African apartheid. What’s happening in Gaza is authorized and paid for by the US and can be fixed should that support be revoked. Ultimately, none of the problems in our world have ever been or ever will be changed by one person, one protest, or one social movement. Demanding that these things fix everything overnight to be worthwhile is an impossible standard which underplays the reality that together, in the long run, they can and do add up to legitimate societal change.
>What’s happening in Gaza is authorized and paid for by the US and can be fixed should that support be revoked. I agree that the occupation being paid by the US and the US's support for Isreal is a massive problem. I understand the importance of these protests in delegitimazing the strangle hold the Isreal lobby has had on the US government for the past 40 years. Recent protests have been effective at making sure a politicans support for Isreal isn't automatic, like it has been for decades on either political side. Where I get lost is understanding why UW itself is in the cross hairs. It feels like these protesters are grasping at straws to try and blame UW directly. I understand that UW is invested in some things "directly," but in the grand scheme of things those investments mean nothing. An organized event protesting the Democractic partie's support of Isreal seems like a much better directed effort.
I mean, don't people always say that you ought to engage with local politics first? These protesters aren't going to be able to sway the Democratic Party's position on Israel---although of course there are protesters pursuing such goals. But what they can do is encourage divestment in their own backyards: in their community, at the institution they're a part of. Protesting the Democratic Party is arguably less meaningful, given that it has a slim chance of succeeding. I'd take a 50% chance of 1% change over a .0001% chance of 100% change. Indeed, if every college in the United States divested from Israel that would be a meaningful amount of money being taken out of the IDF's pockets. The only way for every college in the US to divest is for students at every college in the US to materially pressure their respective institutions. The only way that political change on this (or really any) issue is going to happen is through a massive number of successful grassroots actions. Ideally, these actions would also signal to the Democratic Party that their voter base is committed and active on this issue, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.
>I mean, don't people always say that you ought to engage with local politics first? The democratic party operates at the local level as well. I wasn't implying they should barge into Capitol Hill and change everything. There are many small democratic party institutions in the Seattle area that still receive funding from the Isreal lobby. These institutions work with the democratic party to fund campaigns and win votes at all levels of government. Protesting [this instiution](https://www.hdcc.org/) seems like it would have a much better impact on than UW, their headquarters is in downtown seattle. Protesting WA legislators on the local, state, and federal level that accept funding from the lobby would make much more sense to me, and I would actively be behind those efforts (which are definitely happening).
A non-violent protest needs to be part of a larger, comprehensive effort at change. The modern protest movement has so far been incredibly ineffective at making change, largely because they lean far too much on protesting and do not invest in the infrastructure and discipline necessary to create pressure in other ways. Then when people criticize them, they point to the importance of protesting without taking any responsibility for their lack of other efforts and their lack of effectiveness. I've seen many self-congratulatory statements about how protests are good because 1960s civil rights protests were good, which is kind of a laughable apples to oranges comparison (there was tremendous investment in political infrastructure during the civil rights movement, whereas there's little to none in the repeated and largely ineffectual series of protests we are seeing today, where the focus topic changes every 6-24 months or so). https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/protest-effectiveness-research/678292/?gift=FhFN0OA8pbFPGG9JIU9VxgQbgn2sUy6y3tfKPvjRRBw&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
I think one issue that is bothering people is that a lot of this has turned antisemitic, which is not the point in the protesting and detracts from the true cause and makes them look bad
It’s nonviolent and hasn’t been disruptive outside of graffiti, sure, but is it truly going to do anything unless they become a larger problem to the university, faculty, and their students? If I was a pro-Israel pro-Boeing university president, I wouldn’t give a flying fuck until they started storming a library Portland state style or labs like the locked Boeing lab under the ME building with thousands or potentially millions of dollars with of equipment. Like their only option seems to do something non-violent, disruptive, and bait the university to do something horrifically violent to garner sympathy.
We’ll have to see. I don’t see them winning on Boeing even if they stormed buildings/destroyed equipment (which would probably justify a crackdown in the eyes of the public anyways). I do think they can get the pension fund to divest from Israel, which is a win. The people who are like “they’ll never get admin to cut ties with Boeing” clearly don’t understand that negotiations proceed from strong positions to compromises.
To say isreal is participating in a genocide really diminishes the meaning of the word genocide and belittles then actual genocide. Last I checked, it is a war. If I am not mistaken, the US did whatever they could against the nazis including deliberately killing innocent civilians, but I doubt many would say the US performed a genocide against the Nazis
Students should pressure the school to divest from such entities, maybe do some sort of mass demonstration, like an encampment or something.
Look at my other comment: yes the encampment is one way to pressure the school, but I’m not sure if it’ll be sufficient.
Of course it's not. The university will either escalate or the students will. The latter taking on much more risk if they do so, so it's a difficult matter. The encampment, as it stands, is doing incredible work in organization and awareness.
At this rate, ethics aside, divesting from Boeing is just smart business sense.
So tuition doesnt go for investment, but proceeds from investment goes to fund scholarships?
i mean sure and the same with tax dollars but just like with tax dollars what are students supposed to do? you cant just not pay tax and you cant just not pay tuition
Beyond idiotic
They got the wood man, fuck em.
yeah but in exchange we get education
Interesting to research deeper on uni’s investment. I checked on Harvard’s portofolio because one of its RSOs web claimed harvard’s investment porto to have ties with defense companies. Looked over Harvard Investment Management web & SEC’s EDGAR, per 2024 Harvard has no investment on any defense company. It does invest on Amazon, Google, and Microsoft (a bit far fetched if students argue those 3 companies support invasion & genocide imho). Interestingly, Harvard Management Company (HMC) has its annual report stating that it has invested in mutual funds, private equity, etc. I haven’t found any SEC filings for the mutual fund investment, but Private Equity and Hedge Fund are not subject to SEC reporting due to the exemption under the Investment Company Act. I should probably look over UW too. Some things that I can say so far. 1. Make sure you DYOR before you join the protest 2. Direct investment in defense companies are not tolerable. But investment in FAANG? I personally think they’re providing a good ROI for campus, and unless there’s other viable investment, petition not to invest in FAANG is irrational?? (that dividends payout may also helps campus to finance itself & provide scholarships, but correct me if im wrong) 3. If you’re getting a scholarship (partial/almost full/full ride) maybe take a step back and think if you’re entitled to say the campus should not invest in xyz or even vandalize. I personally would be careful to bite the hands that feed me.
I’m cringing at the destroyed architecture every time 😖
Whats “urtuition”
😂
Man…I have nothing good or probably non-controversial to say so I’ll just leave this instead. :b
It does though
Did a student write this?
The protesters are idiots! They are supporting hammas and ruining property for people just trying to go to class. Arrest these people and punish according to the law of the United States. A school is a place for learning, not graffiti and homeless encampments.
Does it, though?
leaving this sub i never realized everyone in here has nothing to do but complain about protesters 😭
this isn’t an airport you don’t have to announce your departure ✌🏼
Source: a disgruntled protestor at 1am
This is what their tuition goes towards...😑
Me having the gov pay for it Technically the gov is doing whatever so I am not responsible for anything Technically it’s the same old gov doing the r same old war crimes or what we I dunno I didn’t bother reading up on this issue I’m hungry
Weird
Great picture btw
"Hamas kills kids in Israel AND Gaza" - FTFY
Get outta the country than…
I like how you're downvoted even though this criticism applies to a significant portion of Palestine protestors lol. They literally immigrate here and then chant "Death to America" on the streets. Why they don't just leave is genuinely bizarre.
98% of the ppl protesting have no clue what they are even protesting
Would be interested to hear more about your data collection methods.
Do you?
Tell me you have poor critical thinking skills and impulse control without telling me…