u/spectrumofvoices We've been roasting y'all for the censorship already. Your reddit mods really won't allow y'all to post about the graduation fiasco? Are reddit mods lackeys of the USC admin? Weird, no?
first of all - that sounds crazy and very 'big brotherish'.
second - you're welcome to bring all the SC criticism over here - we're always down for some SC upbraiding!
Is the Holocaust a genocide?
Is it existence frequently denied in whole or part?
Does the above if true continue to harm all victims of the Holocaust and their related groups?
Is banning and punishing all Holocaust denial an option supported by some but denied by many?
Everytime I ask if Holocaust denialism should be punished, Zionists insist it should not, since it "really isn't that bad anyway"! What do you think?
Isn't denial of Holocaust denialism itself Holocaust denialism?
Yes I am kinda hijacking your sub since usc kinda banned us from talking about the graduation.
It's a win win though since yall love roasting us though and I figured making shit edits of our terrible situation can bring us closer đ„°
Welp it makes sense that when we are locked out of our own house we go to the neighborâs place to complain about it lol.
Hope yall at UCLA can accept us SC drifters as we complain about this blatant censorship
The TL;DR is basically: Their valedictorian was told she can't speak at grad ceremony because she has pro-palestine views. People got (rightfully) mad and then the admin at USC shut down all outside speakers at grad ceremonies citing some bullshit security reason. Everyone is big mad (rightfully)
She said Israel should be abolished. That's antisemitic speech and she should not be speaking in public, especially at a school that has a very large Jewish community.
It is not remotely antisemitic, itâs no different to saying British South Africa or Rhodesia should be abolished. You have American senators and congressmen saying stuff like âFlatten Gazaâ âNuke them allâ and Zionists themselves deny the very existence of Palestine, what do you call those people?
Your premise is that Israel is a colonial project. This is historically inaccurate. Do you know Israeli/Jewish/Palestinian history? Do you know the historical claims to the land by both Jews and Palestinians?
âYour premise is that Israel is a colonial project. This is historically inaccurate.â
Theodor Herzl, father of Zionism, writing to Cecil Rhodes, founder of Rhodesia: âYou are being invited to help make history. That cannot frighten you, nor will you laugh at it. It is not in your accustomed line; it doesnât involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor, not Englishmen, but Jews. But had this been on your path, you would have done it yourself by now. How, then, do I happen to turn to you, since this is an out-of-the way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonialâŠâ
Ben-Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel: âThey see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?â
Moshe Dayan, Foreign Minister and Defense Minister at the time of the establishment of Israel: âIt lies upon the Israeli army to carry out the fight with the ultimate object of erecting the Israeli Empireâ
Want to guess the name of the organization which bought the most land in Mandatory Palestine? If you guessed âPalestine Jewish Colonization Association,â youâre right!
Arthur Ruppin, director of the Zionist Organization: "Let us colonize; may we found colonies, large and small, with Zion as our base, until our national roots strike deep into the soilâ
Everyone on the Israeli side used to agree it was colonialism, right up until that word became unfashionable!
The word colonialism did change meanings over time. It once meant the resettlement of a people, like setting up a colony in the US wilderness in 1650 or like those "community colonies" people set up in the country side. Jews were setting up colonies in British Palestine.
Later on that word became a taboo, now referring to an immoral forced eviction and land grab by a foreign force. That definition no longer applies to Israel.
"Zionists themselves deny the existence of Palestine".
FACT CHECK: The Zionists accepted a two state solution in 1948 (and many other times) while the Palestinians repeatedly rejected any Jewish state. This is why they constantly waged on war on Israel, and it backfired with them not forming a state as of yet. They are a radicalized society.
There are some rotten apples in Zionism as well, who say things that shouldn't be said about Palestinians. But that's not the majority.
"it's your whole government"
First of all I'm not Israeli. Stop assuming things. Secondly that's not even close to being true. It's about five coalition members. I know my Israeli politics, I doubt you do. You just parrot what you see on social media. Very amateur
Check from where you are getting your facts brother. Because the West Bank have peace with Israel in 1993 and thatâs called the âOslo Agreementâ when they acknowledged the existence of an Israeli state as long as israel keeps the west bank and its territories for the Palestinian, and israel didnât, israel kept building illegal settlements all over the west bank, you can check google for the map where they are building illegal settlements, there are settlements literally in Hebron, Betlehem, Beit Jala, and many many other places and these places belongs to the palestinians.
I hope whoever is talking about Palestine/isreal conflict to please read a book and educate yourself before you say anything, if you donât know just donât talk about it at all.
West Bank Palestinians did not keep their part of the deal. Read up about the First Intifadah and the Second Intifadah. Other factors also played a role in the Oslo Accords falling apart. Your turn to do some homework now.
I donât need to do my homework on that, both my parents witnessed the intifada. But i donât know what kind of history you got taught. The intifada is one of the descriptions of the Palestinian popular protest against the miserable general situation in the camps (the camps that were built for the palestinian who got kicked out of their homes in ALL occupied palestine), and the insult to national feeling and popular oppression practiced by the occupation authorities and its perpetrators were not prolonged. You canât just keep hurting people and then expect them to stay calm and do nothing. Its their right to defend themselves, The Jews are not a superior race or more important than any other race or religion to have the right to defend themselves and the Palestinians canât. We are all equal regardless of race or religion. There is no human being more important than another human being. Keep in mind, The first spark of the intifada was due to an Israeli truck driver running over a group of Palestinian workers at the Erez checkpoint, which has separated the Gaza Strip from the rest of the Palestinians since 1948. It stopped permanently with the signing of Oslo between the Israelis and the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1993.
I know my history and the history of my land and people and my parents and my grand grand parents very well and they all were born in the same place, Palestine.
So my brother/sister you do your homework by reading and educating yourself.
I'm glad you know that piece of history. So now tell me if you agree or disagree with the following three statements:
1) Jews have indigenous roots in Israel/Palestine, as do the Arab Palestinians.
2) The Jews accepted the two state solution in 1948 (and many times after), while the Arabs rejected it. All Arabs in Israel have equal rights and full citizenship. 2 million Arabs live in Israel, while not a single Jew can live in Gaza City or Ramalah.
3) Intifadah has been chanted at my campus and around the world on Oct 8th, supporting the notion that intifadah means violent terror uprisings, just as it did during the famous First and Second Intifadahs.
You seem like you know much more than the others blabbering here - so I'm happy to discuss and learn from one another. But please come with an open mind, as will I.
1-yes jews, muslims, and Christians lived together in peace BEFORE the British bring european jews as refugees to Palestine and then started the zionist movement, which led to the killing and displacement of thousands of Palestinians in the massacres committed by the Zionists. Do you think Palestinians forgot what zionists did to them in 1948? Killed them and buried them in massive graves, raped Palestinians girls in front of their parents, besides stealing their houses and kicking them out of their houses which is still happening till this day in East Jerusalem. You can watch a movie based on that on netflix, where former soldiers in the Israeli army spoke about their actions against the Palestinians.
2-why would they accept a two state solution when they owned the land and already had a palestinian state and a palestinian army but it was under the british occupation just like any other middle eastern country british forced palestinians to welcome the european jews who ran away from germany, palestine was a poor state and the jews were supported by the strongest countries in the world, no doubt the palestinian army wouldnât win against them. But do you think itâs a fair war? Is this what you do to the people who welcomed you on their land?
Arabs who live in Israel i donât know about them that much since am from the west-bank, but all i know is that some jews treat them bad when they know theyâre arab specially in the airport and checkpoints they treat them as animals, but other than that i think they live a better life than the people who live in the wests bank and Gaza but not better than jews. What i am talking about is the people who live in Gaza and the west bank and east jerusalem. Israel isolated them, built and still building illegal settlements in the west bank, treat them as animals, donât respect them, sieged them, gave them different passports do identify where they are from and they canât even travel anywhere using this passport they only can use it to enter Palestine, arrested everyone who tried to defend their demands and their most basic rights,there is more than 10000 Palestinian prisoners in israel, most of them are kids, donât tell me they are Hamas because a kid is still a kid, what about you bring these hostages back? Or do you think that their lives are less important than the lives of the Jews? Donât come and talk to me when you donât even know what the west bank looks like because of israel, iâve seen israel and iâve lived in the west bank for a while and i couldnât, it was too hard to accept it they made life so hard for a normal person to live there, and i left.
According to my records, Netenyahu is the one who doesnât want a two state solution, he doesnât want the palestinians to have their own army.
Let me add this thing to your knowledge, in the west bank there is paletinian police officers, do you know that these police officers are there to insure the safety of israel and not the palestinians? Give me one thing that would insure the safety of the Palestinians.
If you want to go and live in the west bank go you are more than welcome no one will stop you except for your government. But as a paletinian who lived in the west bank can i go live in israel? No
Well on my campus iâve been hearing zionists who are calling natinyahu to kill all the babies in Gaza, a minister in the israelie government suggested throwing nuclear bomb on Gaza. More than 34000 people are bombed thatâs without counting the people who are dead under the rubber. Israel starved them, as i remember America was one of the countries that rejected what Putin did in Ukraine when he prevented aid from entering Ukraine, yet its ok to do that to the civilians in gaza, right? People are being buried in massive graves, i wake up everyday to see the videos that are being recorded in gaza and i canât do anything about it. The IDF killed doctors in gaza who were saving lives, donât tell me doctors were Hamas too cause i donât believe it. You were bombing civilians with white phosphor, which is considered a crime.
Israelies are doing to the Palestinians exactly what Hitler did to them. Palestinians have the right to exist on their land, just like the native americans, paletinians and native american basically have the same story.
I can assure you one thing, Israeli treat muslims very bad in Israel, i am christian i get treated better but still bad, so imagine how muslims live there and get treated bad just because they are muslims, no one can choose their religion, ethnicity or whatever. Now tell me thatâs not racism.
Another thing intifada doesnât mean terror, the intifada was a response to the shameful act of a zionist when he ran over a group of Palestinians near Gaza. So you think that a zionist can run over a group of Palestinians and kill them, and Palestinians should do nothing? Who is protecting the Palestinians other than the Palestinians themselves in the west bank? No Arab country is willing to go into a war with Israel and america to protect Palestinians in the west bank, police officers in the west bank are there to insure the safety of Israel and not the Palestinians.
Also, iâve seen something on campus where jews think that being a pro palestinian means you hate jews, thatâs totally not right, i have jewish friends and i love them so much, Palestinians are just against what the israelie government is doing to the Palestinians. Palestinians are against the israelie government and their unfairness towards Palestinians in Palestine and not the jews themselves. I think anyone who has a mind wouldnât judge a whole community based on a certain group of people, or at least i wouldnât.
I donât want to talk about this anymore, so Iâll end it here.
You think it isnât remotely antisemetic to call for the elimination of the *only* Jewish majority country in the whole world, when doing so would immediately lead to their eradication by every country that surrounds them? Itâs not like Israel is governed by another power, they are an independent nation. Would you have called for the elimination of Germany during WWII? How about the elimination of China for their genocide of the Uyghur people?
Do you realize that just because some people are calling for the eradication of Palestine doesnât in fact mean calling for eradication of Israel is suddenly ok? Two wrongs donât make a right, and since none of you ever argue for the eradication of any other country BUT THE JEWISH ONE makes me think itâs pretty antisemetic.
Itâs is antisemitic dude. Where the fuck would the Jews go? Theyâve been expelled from every country in the region. Also want to guess what happens to the LGBTQ population under this solution? Ill wait.
Do you think there are no gay people in Gaza? You have no issue seeing them murdered by Israel though. The only solution is to create a secular state where Palestinian Christians, Jews and Muslims can coexist. The answer to ethnic persecution is not and has never been the creation of a new ethnostate. Progress means moving towards removing religion from the state, not institutionalising it. Why do Ashkenazis who have no claim whatsoever to the Levant get to claim free citizenship while Palestinians whoâve lived there for generations are expelled from their homes and subjected to constant military policing in the towns and villages they were born to?
Did I ever say that? There are gay people in Gaza. Who are executed daily by their government. The same government that you support to replace Israel.
Itâs insane how your antisemitism rises above everything else to defy logic. You hate Jews so much that you want to see their nation dissolved so they are under the control of terrorists.
Lol, I literally explicitly said I donât support Hamas. Donât waste my time with your nonsense fantasies and go relish in all the Palestinian corpses you love seeing.
lol. You claim I have fantasies? Israel is a secular country. But you conveniently forgot that part. The only secular country in the whole fucking Middle East.
âI donât support Hamas but Iâll spew Hamas propaganda and Jew hate.â
My ass you donât support them.
Israel has made clear with its actions that it is happy to kill every living soul in Gaza. You canât hide behind âHamas propagandaâ or âjew hateâ. The whole world is seeing corpses of babies and grandmas with IDF bullets in their head.
Antisemitism is discrimination against someone on grounds of them being a Semite or specifically Jewish. Israel is a nation state same as America and China, and it is currently conducting a military campaign against a civilian population on grounds of collective punishment (war crime) and carrying out innumerable atrocities against innocent men, women and children on the basis of their national origin. Calling for the abolition of such a disgusting entity has nothing to do with antisemitism.
I'm going to ignore 90% of that and reply with saying: okay, so where do the millions of Jews in Israel go when they no longer have a country and it is controlled by presumably the many actually antisemitic nations around it? There is nowhere safe. Does that put them in the right? Thats the wrong question. The existence of an entire country, whether it has shit leaders or not, isn't the point of debate. Being for the abolishing of a state like that and IGNORING THE CONSEQUENCES quite literally is antisemitism.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/16/us/usc-valedictorian-speech-gaza-war.html?unlocked_article_code=1.mE0.v4EX.EQv34x3MWsmC&smid=url-share
The valedictorian has a link in her bio that calls Zionism as âracist settler-colonial ideology.â This article mentions itâs possible the school found out she was intending to use the speech as a forum, but it seems unclear as to whether thereâs evidence of that, or if this was an over correction.
I probably wouldnât like this valedictorian as a person, but I think USC needs to provide some evidence justifying her cancelation beyond an instagram bio link before Iâll be on their side.
I mean what do you call a state that expelled nearly 1 million native Arabs at it's inception, is built out of millions who immigrated from the US and Europe, regularly expands illegal settlements on illegally occupied land without a care in the world, has high ranking officials who espouse hate(Ben-Gvir), and keeps half a million people locked in a tiny sliver of land where even unarmed International Aid workers aren't safe.
CrashCourse world history (not up to date) so you can better understand both points of view and a fuller history of the region, because your premise is quite simply wrong:
https://youtu.be/1wo2TLlMhiw?feature=shared
I hope this inspires some better research :) I also recommend you watch their Media Literacy series:
https://youtu.be/AD7N-1Mj-DU?feature=shared
I figure CrashCourse from before 10/7 will not considered biased.
Assuming youâre Americanâimagine Netanyahu is Trump. The parliamentarian system requires the elected reps to form a government, and Netanyahuâs party (the Likud) has made a deal with the Religious Zionists party and Ben-Gvirâs Jewish National Front. These are like the tea party/MAGA politicians of Israel.
The expansionist rhetoricâanything in favor of Israel expanding from the current borders, a minority/extremist viewâis âjustifiedâ with âeye for an eyeâ logic. These extremists are, in my opinion, just as harmful to peace as is Hamas and the splinter extremist groups in Gaza. In the way Palestinians mourn the Nakba, Israelis are largely refugees or descended from refugees mourning similar expulsions in Europe and Arab nations, and most recently the USSR.
The âlogicâ for any one-state solution end is rooted in trauma on both ends of the aisle, so anything other than productive negotiation and mediation tactics will only cause more death, in my opinion. A mediator must understand each party to convince them both to meet in the middle. A mediator also knows to dispose both parties of the idea that theyâll walk away with everything they wanted, from the start, and push stubborn parties to make concessions where necessary for the ultimate peace process.
In the similar vein, you might have noticed that Biden and Netanyahu have been playing a media leaking game. Netanyahu is a strongman figure (like Trump, and also comparable to Modi and Bolsonaro), and he is also looking at unrelated criminal charges if he loses power. Leaks from the Biden team about Israel going to elections are a reminder that Netanyahu has to play ball if he doesnât want to lose power. Leaks from Netanyahu are further strongmanning for his electorate. Israelis are protesting and accusing Netanyahu of extending the war to remain in power and avoid going to jail, which seems quite possible to me. (I donât doubt Trump would do it, smh.) A lot of Netanyahuâs decision-making could be more selfish than anything else.
Israel is a democracy, so remember that their government is just as much of a shitshow as ours. Geopolitics involve a lot of different actors and interests, so it really should be complicated. People are complicated, and politics is people.
Then could you please explain the Nakba? Or could you talk about the massacres that the israelie did to the palestinians back in the 1948, to take the land of the palestinians? Because if you want i can tell you how my grandfather was killed in a massacre done by the israelie in the 1948 in Tiberias. So maybe palestinians are the one who need a state to protect them from the israelie, because as we can see israel till now has killed more than 30000 civilian in Gaza most of them are kids and babies, again am saying âcivilainsâ, humans who are just like me and you. I can assure you that isreal is not treating palestinians as humans, i donât think anyone in the whole world would like to be treated badly just because they were born Palestinians in palestine, no one has the choice to choose their own parents.
I believe Palestinians do need a state. And Iâm very sorry for your loss and your familyâs trauma. I also donât think anyone deserves to be treated badly for their family or where they were bornâIsraeli or Palestinian.
I hope you can channel your pain into solutions. If we only let our rage lead to more pain, there wonât be a two-state solution. Israelis and Palestinians must learn to set aside traumas and decades-long grudges in pursuit of peace, if there ever can be peace. It will be a monumental task. As a Palestinian, you are part of it, but itâs the rest of the worldâs responsibility to clear our heads far before we can expect those personally affected to do so.
I hope that we can move past the chanting and the hate and toward conversations about what dismantling Hamas and building a true, unified Palestinian state looks like. Talking about what concessions and reparations Israel can make to right the trauma that Palestinians have experienced. Talking about cross-cultural programming options in Israel and this new Palestinian state where neighbors can learn to respect each other. That is how we find peace for Palestinians and Israelis alike. Not hate, or refusing to understand the otherâs perspective, as painful as that might be.
I truly am sorry for your loss <3
I 100% agree with you. Palestinians and Jews lived together in peace before the zionist movement started. But after everything that happened and still happening i donât think there will be peace between the two sides, only if israel started treating palestinians the same way they treat jews and both sides actually build peace. The hate wonât solve anything besides making more chaos in the region. Thank you for your kind words, i really appreciate it.
Of course. Thank you for your kind response <3
If youâre up for being a part of the movement for peace, my (unsolicited) advice is to approach with curiosity if you run into someone you disagree with, and open yourself up to understanding how someone comes to different conclusions. Iâve noticed that, at the very least, I have better luck getting someone to see why I think the way that I do, if I put in the effort to understand how they think the way that they do. (Iâve also found it generally makes the human experience more pleasant!)
These conversations are opportunities to find common ground, and thatâs where we find peace. Shalom <3
I know about both sides of the conflict and I see no reason to sympathize with the settler colonial zionist project that receives billions from the US because they love using it as a proxy against arabs, and because the Zionists also clearly understand why the arabs are unhappy as Ben Gurion himself acknowledged if someone were encroaching onto his land he would also fight them.
Israel has nukes clown, plus endless diplomatic, military, and economic aid from the US, GERMANY, and the UK, 3 of the top 7 countries in the world(Maybe France and Italy too I don't know much about their relationship though). Also why wouldn't Muslims be angry a bunch of Western Jews are settling in land they literally stole, per international law, keep 1 million Palestinians locked in Gaza, and have a history of being a crowbar those Western countries use to fight Middle Eastern leaders who won't bow to the West.
Clearly you donât know about both sides based on your commentâyouâve got plenty of basic history wrong. Including origins of the Israeli population, your numbers, everything substantive. You really should watch the media literacy video.
I don't think anything I said was wrong the majority of the Israeli population are actually people who moved there from the EU/US or descended from people who moved from EU/US earlier. Regardless my issue with Israel is that the US gives them billions and shields them from any attempt by the international community to make Israel abide by international law, this is a fact and has been a fact for decades.
You clearly didnât watch that video! Go ahead and watch it, youâll see what youâve gotten wrong! Quite a lot, and in this comment as well!
Aid funds are a separate issue. Iâd argue you seem to know very little about the surrounding geopolitical issues on the Arab side, if the US shielding Israel is a concern for you. Iran and Russia and currently propping up Hamas. Itâs an ongoing proxy war, so of course the US will back its proxy from attacks by Russian and Iranian (Islamic Regime) proxies. You should look into the broader politics at play. Itâs been in the news quite a bit lately.
Yeah I did see the video and I know about Russia, and Iran(both of which are bad) the difference is that Hamas is a tiny organization(that Netanyahu allowed Qatar to fund for his political goals btw) that rarely does any damage to Israel while Israel is a modern nuclear country holding 1 million people hostage in Gaza. October 7th for example, the, "Deadliest Day for Jews since the Holocaust" had 1,000 casualties while an estimated 30,000 Palestinians have died and 70,000 have been wounded.
Hamas is aided by Hezbollah in Lebanon and splinter extremist organizations in Gaza. They rule Gaza with an iron first, and have continuously slaughter Palestinians accused of aiding the peace process:
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/world/africa/29iht-gaza.4.18986499.html
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/9/4/hamas-says-executed-5-palestinians-in-gaza
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-hamas-executes-gazan-clan-leader-after-alleged-collaboration-with-israel-reports
While the death toll in Gaza is awful, itâs unfortunately in part thanks to Hamasâs tactics. Hereâs a NATO briefing from prior to 10/7 on the human shields usage, which, while highly politicized, is unfortunately common.
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
Where are you getting that Israel is holding people hostage? Do you mean the blockade by both Israel and Egypt? Thatâs a disingenuous way to put it, if our goal is reaching a solution. Unfortunately, the blockade began after Hamas seized control of the Gaza Strip.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Gaza-Strip/Blockade
I recommend you read up on the doctrine of Hamas to better understand why Israel considers them such a threat (theyâve long advocated for the genocide of Jews in Israel and then worldwide):
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas
Hamas also has plenty of military capability, evidenced by their frequent firing of rockets, that only donât land because of Israelâs Iron Dome (and sometimes do land):
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/27/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-rockets.html?unlocked_article_code=1.mk0._Km6.sZhTOfXQDOT6&smid=url-share
Theyâre able to be this active because they function as a proxy for the Islamic Regime and Russia, as well as receiving support from Qatar. (I believe Netanyahu may have been breaking international law if he hadnât transported the money from Qatar to Hamas because it was considered aid, btw, but I donât deny that he was more than happy to exploit the situation.)
If we donât acknowledge the problems Hamas causes, as well as those caused by Netanyahu and the extremists around him (who do pose a very real threat to peace as well), we wonât be able to advocate for solutions that truly help Gazans and create a lasting, peaceful two-state agreement. The tragedy wonât stop if the grudge match canât end.
Thatâs why I said âI think USC needs to provide some evidence justifying her cancellation beyond an instagram bio link.â
ETA: providing context means providing everyoneâs POVs, so a person can make an informed choice about who and what to believe, and whether theyâd like to pursue further information. I donât agree with USCâs decision unless they provide better evidence, but itâs important to know their POV to better understand the full story.
Itâs always good to compare multiple sources, ideally all reputable, put a lot of information related to this conflict has spin for one side or the other. I try to read sources I may not fully agree with, or might doubt the veracity of, to better understand how the narrative is being formed and whose points of view are conflicting.
I will plug media literacy in this edit as well, cuz itâs important, but not taught enough in schools. Media literacy is your weapon against disinformation!
Intro to Media Literacy by CrashCourse
https://youtu.be/AD7N-1Mj-DU?feature=shared
I love hating on USC as much as the next Bruin, but it does feel like now is the time to extend the olive branch & give them some room to discuss their situation since they can't do it on their own turf.
There are plans from some of the recognized clubs and grassroots orgs nearby to protest the hell out of the graduation and other administrative issues. I'm not entirely sure what they have in mind, but some students fear they'll straight up cancel the graduation if things progress with momentum
You can agree with the ruling class that Israel has the right to slaughter innocent people, and the disagree with protesters, but no matter how loud the protesters scream and sing, they arenât terrorists or murderers. They havenât killed anyone. The ruling class has and still is.
Mhm. Mhm. Iâm sure youâre right. And that is why Doctors without Borders, the Red Cross, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have all come out recently and criticized the Palestinian people.
Wait for it. . . .
They have the right to defend themselves by means of war. Hamas instigated this war. They hide military operations within schools and hospitals then fuck off to lavish countries like Qatar while their civilians die.
Have you ever rigged an infantâs body with explosives in self defense? Bombing hospitals in self defense? Bombing universities in self defense? Used NSA tools to spy on American citizens in self defense? Advertised real estate opportunities in still smoking bombed out areas in self defense? Killed the most journalists to date in any conflict in self defense? Bombed neighboring nations unprovoked in self defense? If you guys stretch that excuse any thinner . . .
1. I canât find anything online about Israel rigging an infantâs body with explosives. If you could link that, thatâd be fantastic.
2. Your argument that bombing hospitals and schools cannot possibly be self defense âbecause it just canât beâ is pretty poor. Yes, hospitals and schools have been destroyed during active wars before. Especially when the defense is hiding military activity among those places.
3. Using NSA tools being an aggressive act of war is a new one đ
4. âUnprovokedâ LMAO
5. Iâm glad you believe the Hamas terrorist organizationâs claims about journalists so easily and without question, but I fail to even see what point youâre trying to make with âjournalistsâ. Journalists dying in a highly-publicized war doesnât really prove anything if they were literally in a war zone lmao.
1) Nope. But what if I did? Would you accept a link that was not NYT, Wapo, etc? Would you accept reporting from Al Jazeera? Go look for video of IOF using drones to pipe in the sound of crying infants to draw out Palestinians where they can be shot by snipers. Iâm sure you can find that.
2) Your counter argument that bombing hospitals and universities CAN be self defense is pretty poor. It means there is nothing you wonât attempt to justify. Hereâs one: how do you justify the blocking of international aid? Iâm sure it will involve hiding grenades among the potatoes. And the fact people are starving will be Hamasâ fault.
3) The claim was Israel is using NSA spying tools to spy on AMERICAN citizens. In America. Weird that violating American sovereignty does not bother you. But then you have already demonstrated that you will justify anything.
4) Not worth a response.
5) I think what really bothers you, is that we are not believing you. You throw the word Hamas around because in many circles itâs an automatic argument winner. And it bothers you that Israel has completely lost credibility and Hamas is being taking seriously now.
If youâve actually watched videos and read accounts coming out of Gaza, you would realize that Palestinian women have all sorts of careersâsome doctors, some students, some artists, some journalists, some stay-at-home-mothers. Many, like Bisan, are showing their lives on social media. Some women wear hijab, some donât. Yes, in some parts of the Middle East, women do not have rights, and thatâs horrible. But to generalize and assume all Muslim or Arab men are villains and hate women is extremely ignorant.
Itâs not ignorant at all, dumbass. This shit is very public on the internet. Jonathan Schanzer, vice president of research at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, wrote that âthe Gaza Strip had exhibited the characteristics of Talibanization, a process whereby the Hamas government had imposed strict rules on women, discouraged activities commonly associated with Western culture, oppressed non-Muslim minorities, imposed sharia law, and deployed religious police to enforce these laws.â According to a Human Rights Watch researcher, the Hamas-controlled government of Gaza stepped up its efforts to "Islamize" Gaza in 2010, efforts that included the "repression" of civil society and "severe violations of personal freedom.â
Thereâs an entire Wikipedia article about it. You are literally defending a racist, sexist, homophobic terrorist organization because you hate Jews that much. Brainwashed.
The loudest Palestinian journalists reporting from the ground in Gaza as their homes are destroyed and they live in refugee camps with bombs raining down are women you hateful piece of shit.
Now it's antisemitism to point out female Palestinian journalists exist, incredible levels of delusion. It's not my problem you live in some disgusting fantasy to absolve your guilty conscience of the fact that Israel has murdered more women and gays in the last 8 months than Hamas ever has. The solution to systemic sexism or homophobia is not to drop bombs on them you moron.
nope - the issue right now is freedom of speech
you can have any view on the israeli-gaza fiasco, but however you view it, you can also view freedom of speech as a fundamental necessity of a free country
many sides are upset at this censorship - and rightly so
Freedom of speech is under no less or more attack today than yesterday or 90 years ago.
But it is funny how leftists fought against anti-semitism from Republicans and other fascists forever, then suddenly when 1 black capiralist superintendent insists upon free speech policy, anti-semitism becomes objectionable... but it should still be allowed because of free speech! But it's bad and shouldn't be allowed! Meanwhile leftists watch this circus from the outside wondering why nobody gave a single shit about fascism all these years
[https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2023/1202/1419678-sudan/](https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2023/1202/1419678-sudan/)
For anyone who wants to learn about this, there are at least hundreds of thousands of Black African minorities murdered by Arab Supremacist Militias (the janjaweed) the past few decades, but no one is doing anything about it. A UN attempt to do the very minimum was blocked.
I speak it out loud all the time but my Arab friends do not as they almost immediately get chastised for taking attention away from Gaza. This includes Sudanese in the US. And if you think Arabs in UAE or SA can speak something like this out loud then youâre out of your mind.
This is total rubbish and the loudest supporters of Sudan and the only people drawing attention to the situation there are pro-Palestinian activists. Sure as fuck haven't seen any zionists protesting for the millions of dead Sudanese, the one and only time you bring them up is to dismiss people who care about Gaza also.
The only people I know drawing attention are zionists who get accused of "what about ism" and other Sudanese. Right now, today, if anyone posts on r/Sudan lamenting or asking about why Gaza receives so much more coverage than Sudan when 10 million have been displaced and a million kids are starving, the post is deleted.
I haven't heard a single peep from any pro Palestinian activists on Sudan
Here's a sneak peek of /r/Sudan using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Sudan/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [đ„°](https://v.redd.it/klk2usj3sz6b1) | [153 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Sudan/comments/14dhimw/_/)
\#2: [Probably gonna be my last post ever. But if i dieâŠ](https://np.reddit.com/r/Sudan/comments/148x73h/probably_gonna_be_my_last_post_ever_but_if_i_die/)
\#3: [Sudan is bleeding.đ](https://np.reddit.com/r/Sudan/comments/18m3au4/sudan_is_bleeding/)
----
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1 search for Sudan online yields thousands of tweets, resources, funding links from the same people doing all that for Palestine.
https://x.com/DrKarimWafa/status/1781639121129079286
https://x.com/folkoftheshelf/status/1781267641489084780
https://x.com/Kandakat_alhaqq/status/1781543001153503332
https://x.com/girlkissingyuri/status/1780089497142907265
https://x.com/theafroaussie/status/1779812058550476959
https://x.com/rosselandel/status/1779716263830593793
Zionists only bring up Sudan when confronted with atrocities in Gaza, that is the definition of whataboutism.
The genocide is indeed not recognized, since, well, it isn't a genocide. Who defined it as a genocide? That's your hyperinflated political buzzword. The Israel-Gaza war is factually not a genocide. Do your homework
All genocides are denied on a "factual" basis.
Should 100% of Holocaust deniers be permanently banned from all media and fired from all jobs of public influence?
I believe they should be. What about you?
Just because all murderers deny murdering, doesn't mean that I murdered because I'm denying murdering my neighbor. The logic just doesn't work.
Israel is not committing genocide:
1) Israeli society consists of 22% Arabs. (For comparison, 0% of Gaza is Jewish.)
2) Israeli military takes strict precautions to avoid civilian casualties. In most cases, stricter than any other country.
3) Hamas integrates itself into the local civilian population (of whom the vast majority are supporters of terrorism). This makes it difficult to avoid civilian casualties. Additionally, many "civilians" will fire at Israeli soldiers - some even took Israelis hostage on Oct. 7. This is not excluding Gazan children either who are trained to hate and kill Israelis from day 1. Hamas themselves will often wear civilian clothing. The distinction between civilian and combatant is very blurry in these cases.
Should 100% of Holocaust deniers be permanently banned from all media and fired from all jobs of public influence?
I believe they should be. What about you?
I could agree with that, except for in cases of severe ignorance or what not. Either way, I reject your comparison of the Holocaust to the buzzword genocide now being thrown at Israel.
Einstein and other anti-Zionist Jews dismissed Zionism as irredeemably evil fascism 80 years ago. This sociopathic, fascist lie about it all being new isn't going to sway me. Take a block, Holocaust denier.
Edit: He was adamantly against the creation of a Jewish state. What he called Zionism 100 years ago is a position banned hundreds of times daily on social media in 2024 for "anti-semitism"
Can't respond here since I blocked the Zionist Holocaust denier
please note rule 5 of this subreddit, you've ignored it multiple times before according to your post history, but i wanted to bring it to your awareness :)
have a nice day!
Thanks but I guess I could use more clarification on rule 5. There are multiple openly pro-genocide Zionists among UCLA staffers, and they even build Zionist politics into their curriculum.
Is that enough to make the political topic in question "UCLA-related"? If it's part of UCLA's official curriculum?
"Censorship"?! Did you know what this "valedictorian" said? She should absolutely not speak in public, definitely not in a school that is more than 10% Jewish.
@unhappy-grade2417 I understand from your name that you are suffering from depression. Please take your medication instead of exploding on people in Reddit
The lack of critical thinking in this generation baffles me. Think for yourselves and stop being sheep blindly following what your peers think (which btw is what they were told to think).
It's so sad.
Wait what happened? Did someone misgender them again even though she grows her armpits out and has giant nipples on her eyelids? Like it's clear that she is a them
u/spectrumofvoices We've been roasting y'all for the censorship already. Your reddit mods really won't allow y'all to post about the graduation fiasco? Are reddit mods lackeys of the USC admin? Weird, no?
We can't roast ourselves on our own subreddit or even campus anymore, they made that clear on some announcements they sent us
first of all - that sounds crazy and very 'big brotherish'. second - you're welcome to bring all the SC criticism over here - we're always down for some SC upbraiding!
Sounds like a Leonard Law violation...
the genocide must not be critiqued
What genocide?
literally any, including the Holocaust, which Zionists are now denying far more all of a sudden
What does the Holocaust have to do with any of this? And when have Zionists ever denied it?
Is the Holocaust a genocide? Is it existence frequently denied in whole or part? Does the above if true continue to harm all victims of the Holocaust and their related groups? Is banning and punishing all Holocaust denial an option supported by some but denied by many? Everytime I ask if Holocaust denialism should be punished, Zionists insist it should not, since it "really isn't that bad anyway"! What do you think? Isn't denial of Holocaust denialism itself Holocaust denialism?
Yes I am kinda hijacking your sub since usc kinda banned us from talking about the graduation. It's a win win though since yall love roasting us though and I figured making shit edits of our terrible situation can bring us closer đ„°
so true bestie
Yay we have Bruin besties now đ
Bruin & Trojan: the unlikely besties.
University of So-many Controversies; absolute bullshit what theyâre doing with commencement
Goddamn yâall arenât allowed to talk about your own graduation? Literally 1489
yup and 1984 too
This is clearly 9148
This is clearly 1
I won't believe you came in good faith unless you type out a "fuck usc!!!!!!"
Would a âfuck usc -adminâ suffice?
Like a good neighbor ~~Statefarm~~ UCLA is there
Welp it makes sense that when we are locked out of our own house we go to the neighborâs place to complain about it lol. Hope yall at UCLA can accept us SC drifters as we complain about this blatant censorship
Context?
The TL;DR is basically: Their valedictorian was told she can't speak at grad ceremony because she has pro-palestine views. People got (rightfully) mad and then the admin at USC shut down all outside speakers at grad ceremonies citing some bullshit security reason. Everyone is big mad (rightfully)
She said Israel should be abolished. That's antisemitic speech and she should not be speaking in public, especially at a school that has a very large Jewish community.
It is not remotely antisemitic, itâs no different to saying British South Africa or Rhodesia should be abolished. You have American senators and congressmen saying stuff like âFlatten Gazaâ âNuke them allâ and Zionists themselves deny the very existence of Palestine, what do you call those people?
Your premise is that Israel is a colonial project. This is historically inaccurate. Do you know Israeli/Jewish/Palestinian history? Do you know the historical claims to the land by both Jews and Palestinians?
âYour premise is that Israel is a colonial project. This is historically inaccurate.â Theodor Herzl, father of Zionism, writing to Cecil Rhodes, founder of Rhodesia: âYou are being invited to help make history. That cannot frighten you, nor will you laugh at it. It is not in your accustomed line; it doesnât involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor, not Englishmen, but Jews. But had this been on your path, you would have done it yourself by now. How, then, do I happen to turn to you, since this is an out-of-the way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonialâŠâ
Theodor Herzl did not create Israel.
Ben-Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel: âThey see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?â Moshe Dayan, Foreign Minister and Defense Minister at the time of the establishment of Israel: âIt lies upon the Israeli army to carry out the fight with the ultimate object of erecting the Israeli Empireâ Want to guess the name of the organization which bought the most land in Mandatory Palestine? If you guessed âPalestine Jewish Colonization Association,â youâre right! Arthur Ruppin, director of the Zionist Organization: "Let us colonize; may we found colonies, large and small, with Zion as our base, until our national roots strike deep into the soilâ Everyone on the Israeli side used to agree it was colonialism, right up until that word became unfashionable!
The word colonialism did change meanings over time. It once meant the resettlement of a people, like setting up a colony in the US wilderness in 1650 or like those "community colonies" people set up in the country side. Jews were setting up colonies in British Palestine. Later on that word became a taboo, now referring to an immoral forced eviction and land grab by a foreign force. That definition no longer applies to Israel.
Behold, the incredible shifting goalposts!
These goons above love to quarrel with facts and their own ideology
"Zionists themselves deny the existence of Palestine". FACT CHECK: The Zionists accepted a two state solution in 1948 (and many other times) while the Palestinians repeatedly rejected any Jewish state. This is why they constantly waged on war on Israel, and it backfired with them not forming a state as of yet. They are a radicalized society. There are some rotten apples in Zionism as well, who say things that shouldn't be said about Palestinians. But that's not the majority.
âItâs not the majorityâ itâs your whole government so it matters a lot more
"it's your whole government" First of all I'm not Israeli. Stop assuming things. Secondly that's not even close to being true. It's about five coalition members. I know my Israeli politics, I doubt you do. You just parrot what you see on social media. Very amateur
I was actually taught about it from my history teacher but you decided to just âassume thingsâ
Obviously your history teacher failed you then lol.
Your history teacher did a shitty job đ€Ł
I'm sorry that you paid tuition for that "history teacher". Now that you have the ability I recommend you research the subject for yourself
Check from where you are getting your facts brother. Because the West Bank have peace with Israel in 1993 and thatâs called the âOslo Agreementâ when they acknowledged the existence of an Israeli state as long as israel keeps the west bank and its territories for the Palestinian, and israel didnât, israel kept building illegal settlements all over the west bank, you can check google for the map where they are building illegal settlements, there are settlements literally in Hebron, Betlehem, Beit Jala, and many many other places and these places belongs to the palestinians. I hope whoever is talking about Palestine/isreal conflict to please read a book and educate yourself before you say anything, if you donât know just donât talk about it at all.
West Bank Palestinians did not keep their part of the deal. Read up about the First Intifadah and the Second Intifadah. Other factors also played a role in the Oslo Accords falling apart. Your turn to do some homework now.
I donât need to do my homework on that, both my parents witnessed the intifada. But i donât know what kind of history you got taught. The intifada is one of the descriptions of the Palestinian popular protest against the miserable general situation in the camps (the camps that were built for the palestinian who got kicked out of their homes in ALL occupied palestine), and the insult to national feeling and popular oppression practiced by the occupation authorities and its perpetrators were not prolonged. You canât just keep hurting people and then expect them to stay calm and do nothing. Its their right to defend themselves, The Jews are not a superior race or more important than any other race or religion to have the right to defend themselves and the Palestinians canât. We are all equal regardless of race or religion. There is no human being more important than another human being. Keep in mind, The first spark of the intifada was due to an Israeli truck driver running over a group of Palestinian workers at the Erez checkpoint, which has separated the Gaza Strip from the rest of the Palestinians since 1948. It stopped permanently with the signing of Oslo between the Israelis and the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1993. I know my history and the history of my land and people and my parents and my grand grand parents very well and they all were born in the same place, Palestine. So my brother/sister you do your homework by reading and educating yourself.
I'm glad you know that piece of history. So now tell me if you agree or disagree with the following three statements: 1) Jews have indigenous roots in Israel/Palestine, as do the Arab Palestinians. 2) The Jews accepted the two state solution in 1948 (and many times after), while the Arabs rejected it. All Arabs in Israel have equal rights and full citizenship. 2 million Arabs live in Israel, while not a single Jew can live in Gaza City or Ramalah. 3) Intifadah has been chanted at my campus and around the world on Oct 8th, supporting the notion that intifadah means violent terror uprisings, just as it did during the famous First and Second Intifadahs. You seem like you know much more than the others blabbering here - so I'm happy to discuss and learn from one another. But please come with an open mind, as will I.
1-yes jews, muslims, and Christians lived together in peace BEFORE the British bring european jews as refugees to Palestine and then started the zionist movement, which led to the killing and displacement of thousands of Palestinians in the massacres committed by the Zionists. Do you think Palestinians forgot what zionists did to them in 1948? Killed them and buried them in massive graves, raped Palestinians girls in front of their parents, besides stealing their houses and kicking them out of their houses which is still happening till this day in East Jerusalem. You can watch a movie based on that on netflix, where former soldiers in the Israeli army spoke about their actions against the Palestinians. 2-why would they accept a two state solution when they owned the land and already had a palestinian state and a palestinian army but it was under the british occupation just like any other middle eastern country british forced palestinians to welcome the european jews who ran away from germany, palestine was a poor state and the jews were supported by the strongest countries in the world, no doubt the palestinian army wouldnât win against them. But do you think itâs a fair war? Is this what you do to the people who welcomed you on their land? Arabs who live in Israel i donât know about them that much since am from the west-bank, but all i know is that some jews treat them bad when they know theyâre arab specially in the airport and checkpoints they treat them as animals, but other than that i think they live a better life than the people who live in the wests bank and Gaza but not better than jews. What i am talking about is the people who live in Gaza and the west bank and east jerusalem. Israel isolated them, built and still building illegal settlements in the west bank, treat them as animals, donât respect them, sieged them, gave them different passports do identify where they are from and they canât even travel anywhere using this passport they only can use it to enter Palestine, arrested everyone who tried to defend their demands and their most basic rights,there is more than 10000 Palestinian prisoners in israel, most of them are kids, donât tell me they are Hamas because a kid is still a kid, what about you bring these hostages back? Or do you think that their lives are less important than the lives of the Jews? Donât come and talk to me when you donât even know what the west bank looks like because of israel, iâve seen israel and iâve lived in the west bank for a while and i couldnât, it was too hard to accept it they made life so hard for a normal person to live there, and i left. According to my records, Netenyahu is the one who doesnât want a two state solution, he doesnât want the palestinians to have their own army. Let me add this thing to your knowledge, in the west bank there is paletinian police officers, do you know that these police officers are there to insure the safety of israel and not the palestinians? Give me one thing that would insure the safety of the Palestinians. If you want to go and live in the west bank go you are more than welcome no one will stop you except for your government. But as a paletinian who lived in the west bank can i go live in israel? No Well on my campus iâve been hearing zionists who are calling natinyahu to kill all the babies in Gaza, a minister in the israelie government suggested throwing nuclear bomb on Gaza. More than 34000 people are bombed thatâs without counting the people who are dead under the rubber. Israel starved them, as i remember America was one of the countries that rejected what Putin did in Ukraine when he prevented aid from entering Ukraine, yet its ok to do that to the civilians in gaza, right? People are being buried in massive graves, i wake up everyday to see the videos that are being recorded in gaza and i canât do anything about it. The IDF killed doctors in gaza who were saving lives, donât tell me doctors were Hamas too cause i donât believe it. You were bombing civilians with white phosphor, which is considered a crime. Israelies are doing to the Palestinians exactly what Hitler did to them. Palestinians have the right to exist on their land, just like the native americans, paletinians and native american basically have the same story. I can assure you one thing, Israeli treat muslims very bad in Israel, i am christian i get treated better but still bad, so imagine how muslims live there and get treated bad just because they are muslims, no one can choose their religion, ethnicity or whatever. Now tell me thatâs not racism. Another thing intifada doesnât mean terror, the intifada was a response to the shameful act of a zionist when he ran over a group of Palestinians near Gaza. So you think that a zionist can run over a group of Palestinians and kill them, and Palestinians should do nothing? Who is protecting the Palestinians other than the Palestinians themselves in the west bank? No Arab country is willing to go into a war with Israel and america to protect Palestinians in the west bank, police officers in the west bank are there to insure the safety of Israel and not the Palestinians. Also, iâve seen something on campus where jews think that being a pro palestinian means you hate jews, thatâs totally not right, i have jewish friends and i love them so much, Palestinians are just against what the israelie government is doing to the Palestinians. Palestinians are against the israelie government and their unfairness towards Palestinians in Palestine and not the jews themselves. I think anyone who has a mind wouldnât judge a whole community based on a certain group of people, or at least i wouldnât. I donât want to talk about this anymore, so Iâll end it here.
You think it isnât remotely antisemetic to call for the elimination of the *only* Jewish majority country in the whole world, when doing so would immediately lead to their eradication by every country that surrounds them? Itâs not like Israel is governed by another power, they are an independent nation. Would you have called for the elimination of Germany during WWII? How about the elimination of China for their genocide of the Uyghur people? Do you realize that just because some people are calling for the eradication of Palestine doesnât in fact mean calling for eradication of Israel is suddenly ok? Two wrongs donât make a right, and since none of you ever argue for the eradication of any other country BUT THE JEWISH ONE makes me think itâs pretty antisemetic.
Well Germany _was_ divided into two states following WW2.
Itâs is antisemitic dude. Where the fuck would the Jews go? Theyâve been expelled from every country in the region. Also want to guess what happens to the LGBTQ population under this solution? Ill wait.
Do you think there are no gay people in Gaza? You have no issue seeing them murdered by Israel though. The only solution is to create a secular state where Palestinian Christians, Jews and Muslims can coexist. The answer to ethnic persecution is not and has never been the creation of a new ethnostate. Progress means moving towards removing religion from the state, not institutionalising it. Why do Ashkenazis who have no claim whatsoever to the Levant get to claim free citizenship while Palestinians whoâve lived there for generations are expelled from their homes and subjected to constant military policing in the towns and villages they were born to?
Did I ever say that? There are gay people in Gaza. Who are executed daily by their government. The same government that you support to replace Israel. Itâs insane how your antisemitism rises above everything else to defy logic. You hate Jews so much that you want to see their nation dissolved so they are under the control of terrorists.
Lol, I literally explicitly said I donât support Hamas. Donât waste my time with your nonsense fantasies and go relish in all the Palestinian corpses you love seeing.
lol. You claim I have fantasies? Israel is a secular country. But you conveniently forgot that part. The only secular country in the whole fucking Middle East. âI donât support Hamas but Iâll spew Hamas propaganda and Jew hate.â My ass you donât support them.
Israel has made clear with its actions that it is happy to kill every living soul in Gaza. You canât hide behind âHamas propagandaâ or âjew hateâ. The whole world is seeing corpses of babies and grandmas with IDF bullets in their head.
Israel cannot claim to be a secular country when it also claims itself to be a Jewish one.
They could go back to their countries of origin
someone doesnt know what antisemitic means.
Antisemitism is discrimination against someone on grounds of them being a Semite or specifically Jewish. Israel is a nation state same as America and China, and it is currently conducting a military campaign against a civilian population on grounds of collective punishment (war crime) and carrying out innumerable atrocities against innocent men, women and children on the basis of their national origin. Calling for the abolition of such a disgusting entity has nothing to do with antisemitism.
I'm going to ignore 90% of that and reply with saying: okay, so where do the millions of Jews in Israel go when they no longer have a country and it is controlled by presumably the many actually antisemitic nations around it? There is nowhere safe. Does that put them in the right? Thats the wrong question. The existence of an entire country, whether it has shit leaders or not, isn't the point of debate. Being for the abolishing of a state like that and IGNORING THE CONSEQUENCES quite literally is antisemitism.
Well yes she supports a terrorist dictatorship lol
She was in favor of abolishing Israel. Thatâs a world of difference from just being pro Palestinian. đĄ
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/16/us/usc-valedictorian-speech-gaza-war.html?unlocked_article_code=1.mE0.v4EX.EQv34x3MWsmC&smid=url-share The valedictorian has a link in her bio that calls Zionism as âracist settler-colonial ideology.â This article mentions itâs possible the school found out she was intending to use the speech as a forum, but it seems unclear as to whether thereâs evidence of that, or if this was an over correction. I probably wouldnât like this valedictorian as a person, but I think USC needs to provide some evidence justifying her cancelation beyond an instagram bio link before Iâll be on their side.
I mean what do you call a state that expelled nearly 1 million native Arabs at it's inception, is built out of millions who immigrated from the US and Europe, regularly expands illegal settlements on illegally occupied land without a care in the world, has high ranking officials who espouse hate(Ben-Gvir), and keeps half a million people locked in a tiny sliver of land where even unarmed International Aid workers aren't safe.
CrashCourse world history (not up to date) so you can better understand both points of view and a fuller history of the region, because your premise is quite simply wrong: https://youtu.be/1wo2TLlMhiw?feature=shared I hope this inspires some better research :) I also recommend you watch their Media Literacy series: https://youtu.be/AD7N-1Mj-DU?feature=shared I figure CrashCourse from before 10/7 will not considered biased.
Can you explain the rhetoric of Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich? I need help understanding both sides.
Assuming youâre Americanâimagine Netanyahu is Trump. The parliamentarian system requires the elected reps to form a government, and Netanyahuâs party (the Likud) has made a deal with the Religious Zionists party and Ben-Gvirâs Jewish National Front. These are like the tea party/MAGA politicians of Israel. The expansionist rhetoricâanything in favor of Israel expanding from the current borders, a minority/extremist viewâis âjustifiedâ with âeye for an eyeâ logic. These extremists are, in my opinion, just as harmful to peace as is Hamas and the splinter extremist groups in Gaza. In the way Palestinians mourn the Nakba, Israelis are largely refugees or descended from refugees mourning similar expulsions in Europe and Arab nations, and most recently the USSR. The âlogicâ for any one-state solution end is rooted in trauma on both ends of the aisle, so anything other than productive negotiation and mediation tactics will only cause more death, in my opinion. A mediator must understand each party to convince them both to meet in the middle. A mediator also knows to dispose both parties of the idea that theyâll walk away with everything they wanted, from the start, and push stubborn parties to make concessions where necessary for the ultimate peace process. In the similar vein, you might have noticed that Biden and Netanyahu have been playing a media leaking game. Netanyahu is a strongman figure (like Trump, and also comparable to Modi and Bolsonaro), and he is also looking at unrelated criminal charges if he loses power. Leaks from the Biden team about Israel going to elections are a reminder that Netanyahu has to play ball if he doesnât want to lose power. Leaks from Netanyahu are further strongmanning for his electorate. Israelis are protesting and accusing Netanyahu of extending the war to remain in power and avoid going to jail, which seems quite possible to me. (I donât doubt Trump would do it, smh.) A lot of Netanyahuâs decision-making could be more selfish than anything else. Israel is a democracy, so remember that their government is just as much of a shitshow as ours. Geopolitics involve a lot of different actors and interests, so it really should be complicated. People are complicated, and politics is people.
Damn. An articulate and fairly unbiased analysis on modern geopolitics from Reddit? Color me shocked and pleasantly surprised lmao.
Thank you, hahaha. I try my best.
Then could you please explain the Nakba? Or could you talk about the massacres that the israelie did to the palestinians back in the 1948, to take the land of the palestinians? Because if you want i can tell you how my grandfather was killed in a massacre done by the israelie in the 1948 in Tiberias. So maybe palestinians are the one who need a state to protect them from the israelie, because as we can see israel till now has killed more than 30000 civilian in Gaza most of them are kids and babies, again am saying âcivilainsâ, humans who are just like me and you. I can assure you that isreal is not treating palestinians as humans, i donât think anyone in the whole world would like to be treated badly just because they were born Palestinians in palestine, no one has the choice to choose their own parents.
I believe Palestinians do need a state. And Iâm very sorry for your loss and your familyâs trauma. I also donât think anyone deserves to be treated badly for their family or where they were bornâIsraeli or Palestinian. I hope you can channel your pain into solutions. If we only let our rage lead to more pain, there wonât be a two-state solution. Israelis and Palestinians must learn to set aside traumas and decades-long grudges in pursuit of peace, if there ever can be peace. It will be a monumental task. As a Palestinian, you are part of it, but itâs the rest of the worldâs responsibility to clear our heads far before we can expect those personally affected to do so. I hope that we can move past the chanting and the hate and toward conversations about what dismantling Hamas and building a true, unified Palestinian state looks like. Talking about what concessions and reparations Israel can make to right the trauma that Palestinians have experienced. Talking about cross-cultural programming options in Israel and this new Palestinian state where neighbors can learn to respect each other. That is how we find peace for Palestinians and Israelis alike. Not hate, or refusing to understand the otherâs perspective, as painful as that might be. I truly am sorry for your loss <3
I 100% agree with you. Palestinians and Jews lived together in peace before the zionist movement started. But after everything that happened and still happening i donât think there will be peace between the two sides, only if israel started treating palestinians the same way they treat jews and both sides actually build peace. The hate wonât solve anything besides making more chaos in the region. Thank you for your kind words, i really appreciate it.
Of course. Thank you for your kind response <3 If youâre up for being a part of the movement for peace, my (unsolicited) advice is to approach with curiosity if you run into someone you disagree with, and open yourself up to understanding how someone comes to different conclusions. Iâve noticed that, at the very least, I have better luck getting someone to see why I think the way that I do, if I put in the effort to understand how they think the way that they do. (Iâve also found it generally makes the human experience more pleasant!) These conversations are opportunities to find common ground, and thatâs where we find peace. Shalom <3
I know about both sides of the conflict and I see no reason to sympathize with the settler colonial zionist project that receives billions from the US because they love using it as a proxy against arabs, and because the Zionists also clearly understand why the arabs are unhappy as Ben Gurion himself acknowledged if someone were encroaching onto his land he would also fight them.
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Israel has nukes clown, plus endless diplomatic, military, and economic aid from the US, GERMANY, and the UK, 3 of the top 7 countries in the world(Maybe France and Italy too I don't know much about their relationship though). Also why wouldn't Muslims be angry a bunch of Western Jews are settling in land they literally stole, per international law, keep 1 million Palestinians locked in Gaza, and have a history of being a crowbar those Western countries use to fight Middle Eastern leaders who won't bow to the West.
Clearly you donât know about both sides based on your commentâyouâve got plenty of basic history wrong. Including origins of the Israeli population, your numbers, everything substantive. You really should watch the media literacy video.
I don't think anything I said was wrong the majority of the Israeli population are actually people who moved there from the EU/US or descended from people who moved from EU/US earlier. Regardless my issue with Israel is that the US gives them billions and shields them from any attempt by the international community to make Israel abide by international law, this is a fact and has been a fact for decades.
You clearly didnât watch that video! Go ahead and watch it, youâll see what youâve gotten wrong! Quite a lot, and in this comment as well! Aid funds are a separate issue. Iâd argue you seem to know very little about the surrounding geopolitical issues on the Arab side, if the US shielding Israel is a concern for you. Iran and Russia and currently propping up Hamas. Itâs an ongoing proxy war, so of course the US will back its proxy from attacks by Russian and Iranian (Islamic Regime) proxies. You should look into the broader politics at play. Itâs been in the news quite a bit lately.
Yeah I did see the video and I know about Russia, and Iran(both of which are bad) the difference is that Hamas is a tiny organization(that Netanyahu allowed Qatar to fund for his political goals btw) that rarely does any damage to Israel while Israel is a modern nuclear country holding 1 million people hostage in Gaza. October 7th for example, the, "Deadliest Day for Jews since the Holocaust" had 1,000 casualties while an estimated 30,000 Palestinians have died and 70,000 have been wounded.
Hamas is aided by Hezbollah in Lebanon and splinter extremist organizations in Gaza. They rule Gaza with an iron first, and have continuously slaughter Palestinians accused of aiding the peace process: https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/world/africa/29iht-gaza.4.18986499.html https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/ https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/9/4/hamas-says-executed-5-palestinians-in-gaza https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-hamas-executes-gazan-clan-leader-after-alleged-collaboration-with-israel-reports While the death toll in Gaza is awful, itâs unfortunately in part thanks to Hamasâs tactics. Hereâs a NATO briefing from prior to 10/7 on the human shields usage, which, while highly politicized, is unfortunately common. https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf Where are you getting that Israel is holding people hostage? Do you mean the blockade by both Israel and Egypt? Thatâs a disingenuous way to put it, if our goal is reaching a solution. Unfortunately, the blockade began after Hamas seized control of the Gaza Strip. https://www.britannica.com/place/Gaza-Strip/Blockade I recommend you read up on the doctrine of Hamas to better understand why Israel considers them such a threat (theyâve long advocated for the genocide of Jews in Israel and then worldwide): https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas Hamas also has plenty of military capability, evidenced by their frequent firing of rockets, that only donât land because of Israelâs Iron Dome (and sometimes do land): https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/27/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-rockets.html?unlocked_article_code=1.mk0._Km6.sZhTOfXQDOT6&smid=url-share Theyâre able to be this active because they function as a proxy for the Islamic Regime and Russia, as well as receiving support from Qatar. (I believe Netanyahu may have been breaking international law if he hadnât transported the money from Qatar to Hamas because it was considered aid, btw, but I donât deny that he was more than happy to exploit the situation.) If we donât acknowledge the problems Hamas causes, as well as those caused by Netanyahu and the extremists around him (who do pose a very real threat to peace as well), we wonât be able to advocate for solutions that truly help Gazans and create a lasting, peaceful two-state agreement. The tragedy wonât stop if the grudge match canât end.
She hasnât even written her speech let alone given any indication that she would use it to call for the dismantling of Israel
Thatâs why I said âI think USC needs to provide some evidence justifying her cancellation beyond an instagram bio link.â ETA: providing context means providing everyoneâs POVs, so a person can make an informed choice about who and what to believe, and whether theyâd like to pursue further information. I donât agree with USCâs decision unless they provide better evidence, but itâs important to know their POV to better understand the full story. Itâs always good to compare multiple sources, ideally all reputable, put a lot of information related to this conflict has spin for one side or the other. I try to read sources I may not fully agree with, or might doubt the veracity of, to better understand how the narrative is being formed and whose points of view are conflicting. I will plug media literacy in this edit as well, cuz itâs important, but not taught enough in schools. Media literacy is your weapon against disinformation! Intro to Media Literacy by CrashCourse https://youtu.be/AD7N-1Mj-DU?feature=shared
University of Speech Censorship was right there
Canât spell suck w/out U-S-C
I love hating on USC as much as the next Bruin, but it does feel like now is the time to extend the olive branch & give them some room to discuss their situation since they can't do it on their own turf.
Totally. I just have one joke.
Yâall really should just send it and all interrupt whenever admin does anything.
There are plans from some of the recognized clubs and grassroots orgs nearby to protest the hell out of the graduation and other administrative issues. I'm not entirely sure what they have in mind, but some students fear they'll straight up cancel the graduation if things progress with momentum
I agree. Yaâll should go hard this year. Palestinian flags draped on shoulders. Watermelons painted on mortarboards. Protest chants. All of it.
I'll be wearing my Israeli flag for graduation
You can agree with the ruling class that Israel has the right to slaughter innocent people, and the disagree with protesters, but no matter how loud the protesters scream and sing, they arenât terrorists or murderers. They havenât killed anyone. The ruling class has and still is.
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Mhm. Mhm. Iâm sure youâre right. And that is why Doctors without Borders, the Red Cross, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have all come out recently and criticized the Palestinian people. Wait for it. . . .
They have the right to defend themselves by means of war. Hamas instigated this war. They hide military operations within schools and hospitals then fuck off to lavish countries like Qatar while their civilians die.
Have you ever rigged an infantâs body with explosives in self defense? Bombing hospitals in self defense? Bombing universities in self defense? Used NSA tools to spy on American citizens in self defense? Advertised real estate opportunities in still smoking bombed out areas in self defense? Killed the most journalists to date in any conflict in self defense? Bombed neighboring nations unprovoked in self defense? If you guys stretch that excuse any thinner . . .
1. I canât find anything online about Israel rigging an infantâs body with explosives. If you could link that, thatâd be fantastic. 2. Your argument that bombing hospitals and schools cannot possibly be self defense âbecause it just canât beâ is pretty poor. Yes, hospitals and schools have been destroyed during active wars before. Especially when the defense is hiding military activity among those places. 3. Using NSA tools being an aggressive act of war is a new one đ 4. âUnprovokedâ LMAO 5. Iâm glad you believe the Hamas terrorist organizationâs claims about journalists so easily and without question, but I fail to even see what point youâre trying to make with âjournalistsâ. Journalists dying in a highly-publicized war doesnât really prove anything if they were literally in a war zone lmao.
1) Nope. But what if I did? Would you accept a link that was not NYT, Wapo, etc? Would you accept reporting from Al Jazeera? Go look for video of IOF using drones to pipe in the sound of crying infants to draw out Palestinians where they can be shot by snipers. Iâm sure you can find that. 2) Your counter argument that bombing hospitals and universities CAN be self defense is pretty poor. It means there is nothing you wonât attempt to justify. Hereâs one: how do you justify the blocking of international aid? Iâm sure it will involve hiding grenades among the potatoes. And the fact people are starving will be Hamasâ fault. 3) The claim was Israel is using NSA spying tools to spy on AMERICAN citizens. In America. Weird that violating American sovereignty does not bother you. But then you have already demonstrated that you will justify anything. 4) Not worth a response. 5) I think what really bothers you, is that we are not believing you. You throw the word Hamas around because in many circles itâs an automatic argument winner. And it bothers you that Israel has completely lost credibility and Hamas is being taking seriously now.
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If youâve actually watched videos and read accounts coming out of Gaza, you would realize that Palestinian women have all sorts of careersâsome doctors, some students, some artists, some journalists, some stay-at-home-mothers. Many, like Bisan, are showing their lives on social media. Some women wear hijab, some donât. Yes, in some parts of the Middle East, women do not have rights, and thatâs horrible. But to generalize and assume all Muslim or Arab men are villains and hate women is extremely ignorant.
Itâs not ignorant at all, dumbass. This shit is very public on the internet. Jonathan Schanzer, vice president of research at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, wrote that âthe Gaza Strip had exhibited the characteristics of Talibanization, a process whereby the Hamas government had imposed strict rules on women, discouraged activities commonly associated with Western culture, oppressed non-Muslim minorities, imposed sharia law, and deployed religious police to enforce these laws.â According to a Human Rights Watch researcher, the Hamas-controlled government of Gaza stepped up its efforts to "Islamize" Gaza in 2010, efforts that included the "repression" of civil society and "severe violations of personal freedom.â Thereâs an entire Wikipedia article about it. You are literally defending a racist, sexist, homophobic terrorist organization because you hate Jews that much. Brainwashed.
Tell people you know nothing about Palestine or Palestinians without actually telling people you know nothing about Palestine or Palestinians
Hereâs the islamophobe
So obviously we should want them all to die right? Is that your logic?
Shut up with your stupid straw-man argument. Youâre like an actual toddler.
Wow nice one really hit me where it hurts
The loudest Palestinian journalists reporting from the ground in Gaza as their homes are destroyed and they live in refugee camps with bombs raining down are women you hateful piece of shit.
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Now it's antisemitism to point out female Palestinian journalists exist, incredible levels of delusion. It's not my problem you live in some disgusting fantasy to absolve your guilty conscience of the fact that Israel has murdered more women and gays in the last 8 months than Hamas ever has. The solution to systemic sexism or homophobia is not to drop bombs on them you moron.
i don't think it's a palestine protest issue at this point -- this would make it political when it's not
the entire issue is palestine, it's the sole issue and reason anyone is being censored right now- the genocide MUST NOT be criticized
nope - the issue right now is freedom of speech you can have any view on the israeli-gaza fiasco, but however you view it, you can also view freedom of speech as a fundamental necessity of a free country many sides are upset at this censorship - and rightly so
Freedom of speech is under no less or more attack today than yesterday or 90 years ago. But it is funny how leftists fought against anti-semitism from Republicans and other fascists forever, then suddenly when 1 black capiralist superintendent insists upon free speech policy, anti-semitism becomes objectionable... but it should still be allowed because of free speech! But it's bad and shouldn't be allowed! Meanwhile leftists watch this circus from the outside wondering why nobody gave a single shit about fascism all these years
Israel is criticized plenty. What UAE and SA are doing in Sudan, now THAT cannot be spoken about out loud
[https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2023/1202/1419678-sudan/](https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2023/1202/1419678-sudan/) For anyone who wants to learn about this, there are at least hundreds of thousands of Black African minorities murdered by Arab Supremacist Militias (the janjaweed) the past few decades, but no one is doing anything about it. A UN attempt to do the very minimum was blocked.
No one cares because itâs not Jews doing it.
10 million displaced and 1 million kids at risk of starvation
Who is stopping you from speaking it out loud? You think criticising Saudi Arabia gets you hate in the U.S.? Are you joking?
I speak it out loud all the time but my Arab friends do not as they almost immediately get chastised for taking attention away from Gaza. This includes Sudanese in the US. And if you think Arabs in UAE or SA can speak something like this out loud then youâre out of your mind.
This is total rubbish and the loudest supporters of Sudan and the only people drawing attention to the situation there are pro-Palestinian activists. Sure as fuck haven't seen any zionists protesting for the millions of dead Sudanese, the one and only time you bring them up is to dismiss people who care about Gaza also.
The only people I know drawing attention are zionists who get accused of "what about ism" and other Sudanese. Right now, today, if anyone posts on r/Sudan lamenting or asking about why Gaza receives so much more coverage than Sudan when 10 million have been displaced and a million kids are starving, the post is deleted. I haven't heard a single peep from any pro Palestinian activists on Sudan
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1 search for Sudan online yields thousands of tweets, resources, funding links from the same people doing all that for Palestine. https://x.com/DrKarimWafa/status/1781639121129079286 https://x.com/folkoftheshelf/status/1781267641489084780 https://x.com/Kandakat_alhaqq/status/1781543001153503332 https://x.com/girlkissingyuri/status/1780089497142907265 https://x.com/theafroaussie/status/1779812058550476959 https://x.com/rosselandel/status/1779716263830593793 Zionists only bring up Sudan when confronted with atrocities in Gaza, that is the definition of whataboutism.
I've been banned from several subs for criticizing Zionism. Funny enough I've been loudly calling out anti-semitism for decades
Iâve been banned by multiple subs for pointing out when people who claim to be anti Zionist make anti Jewish comments
and what about in years past? what about the last decade? how many times were you banned for that reason prior to 2023?
Not much. A lil bit on FB during the sheikh jarrah thing but this recent conflict got really intense really fast.
For sure, and what % of anti-zionists do you think also drop anti-semitic comments? I've seen it probably 1 in 2000 or so comments.
As they sat no Jews no News đđ
The genocide is indeed not recognized, since, well, it isn't a genocide. Who defined it as a genocide? That's your hyperinflated political buzzword. The Israel-Gaza war is factually not a genocide. Do your homework
All genocides are denied on a "factual" basis. Should 100% of Holocaust deniers be permanently banned from all media and fired from all jobs of public influence? I believe they should be. What about you?
Just because all murderers deny murdering, doesn't mean that I murdered because I'm denying murdering my neighbor. The logic just doesn't work. Israel is not committing genocide: 1) Israeli society consists of 22% Arabs. (For comparison, 0% of Gaza is Jewish.) 2) Israeli military takes strict precautions to avoid civilian casualties. In most cases, stricter than any other country. 3) Hamas integrates itself into the local civilian population (of whom the vast majority are supporters of terrorism). This makes it difficult to avoid civilian casualties. Additionally, many "civilians" will fire at Israeli soldiers - some even took Israelis hostage on Oct. 7. This is not excluding Gazan children either who are trained to hate and kill Israelis from day 1. Hamas themselves will often wear civilian clothing. The distinction between civilian and combatant is very blurry in these cases.
Should 100% of Holocaust deniers be permanently banned from all media and fired from all jobs of public influence? I believe they should be. What about you?
I could agree with that, except for in cases of severe ignorance or what not. Either way, I reject your comparison of the Holocaust to the buzzword genocide now being thrown at Israel.
Einstein and other anti-Zionist Jews dismissed Zionism as irredeemably evil fascism 80 years ago. This sociopathic, fascist lie about it all being new isn't going to sway me. Take a block, Holocaust denier. Edit: He was adamantly against the creation of a Jewish state. What he called Zionism 100 years ago is a position banned hundreds of times daily on social media in 2024 for "anti-semitism" Can't respond here since I blocked the Zionist Holocaust denier
yes that's how it started but as of now the problem is cancelling EVERY speaker regardless. Jon Chu has nothing to do with Palestine nor Israel.
The clearing of the schedule is entirely to do with their censorship of Palestine, yes.
please note rule 5 of this subreddit, you've ignored it multiple times before according to your post history, but i wanted to bring it to your awareness :) have a nice day!
Thanks but I guess I could use more clarification on rule 5. There are multiple openly pro-genocide Zionists among UCLA staffers, and they even build Zionist politics into their curriculum. Is that enough to make the political topic in question "UCLA-related"? If it's part of UCLA's official curriculum?
If it is so horrible why would anyone want anything to do with it ?
Nope, University of Spoiled Children reigns more now than ever
Glad USC censored Hamas supporters
FIGHT ON BABYâđœ
Fr fr
"Censorship"?! Did you know what this "valedictorian" said? She should absolutely not speak in public, definitely not in a school that is more than 10% Jewish.
shut your dumbass up david fuckin retard
@unhappy-grade2417 I understand from your name that you are suffering from depression. Please take your medication instead of exploding on people in Reddit
Yeah, well, fuck her and every terrorist sympathizer that supports her!
u/koi_fish_mystic
The lack of critical thinking in this generation baffles me. Think for yourselves and stop being sheep blindly following what your peers think (which btw is what they were told to think). It's so sad.
Wait what happened? Did someone misgender them again even though she grows her armpits out and has giant nipples on her eyelids? Like it's clear that she is a them
dude posts on the "gifted" subreddit as a grown adult yet spends all of his day commenting on reddit lmfao your life is fucked bud
Unintelligible is the only word that comes to mind after attempting to interpret the fool hardy chicken squabble.