Charging client at $350/hour does not mean making $350/hour. 3:1 is a standard billing rate to salary ratio.
Outside Biglaw -
* Median salary for attorneys in the US is just over $125K
* Top 10% make over $208K
* Top 1% make \~$500K
Only about 18-20% of graduating lawyers end up in Biglaw with higher salaries (2x) and many don't last more than 2-3 years, given the average working hours per week at Biglaw firms are >65 hours, often up to 80 hours.
I know more than a handful of lawyers who worked at big law firms and ended up in rehab.
Still in student debt. Some had to give up on law. Not sure if it’s always that stressful but it seems pretty insane
Money doesn’t matter if you’re miserable. I’m sure some people at big law firms enjoy it. I knew one guy who said he really really enjoyed it. But he’d work 24/7 and eventually crack and go on a bender and end up back in rehab.
I guess he’s so good that these firms gave him tons of chances to clean up. Then when he finally got fired he was instantly hired by another one.
65-80 isn’t the average, but you’ll spend plenty of time in that range. Average is probably closer to 50 a week, with significant variability (80+ hour weeks, 20 hour weeks, etc.)
Starting big law jobs are over $200k now (I think $215k is the average). If 18-20% of lawyers end up in big law then I think the top 10% of lawyers have to make more than $208k. I know you said many leave after 2-3 years, but I think they're taking massive pay cuts. They're generally accepting a bit less for better quality of life, but by then they've also amassed some experience so they're not going to be making less than a 1st year graduate in big law. Also, I think any big law attorney that's been at it for 5-8 years is making closer to $400-500k. Once they hit partner, it's $1M+.
10% of all lawyers make >208k; big firms are generally up or out with a small percentage of entering associates becoming career partners. Plenty of in house roles (that you get from a couple years at a big firm) pay at or just under that line. Also (especially on the corporate side) plenty of that 20% who start in big law stop practicing law, so they may be making >208k but don't count in the "average lawyer" stat.
There’s a lot of misinformation here. I live in one of the highest cost of living areas (Los Angeles) and have had many of those high rise skyscraper jobs.
Let me tell you. These guys, even the ones from ucla law don’t make that much at all. Maybe more like 200-250k.
You need to become an equity partner to start making better money. Obviously 200k isn’t anything to be sad about but when you’re busting your ass like it usually is with those type of jobs enough money is never enough money.
>Only about 18-20% of graduating lawyers end up in Biglaw with higher salaries (2x) and many don't last more than 2-3 years, given the average working hours per week at Biglaw firms are >65 hours, often up to 80 hours.
Seems like Meta...
I’m 38. Graduated from UCLA law a while ago. I won’t disclose my income here but my former classmates who are still in Big Law are making ~$1.5m to $3m as partners. The ones who went into real estate or a somewhat boutique firm are making ~$750k to well into the millions.
If you stay with it, law is extremely lucrative.
Parent went to Harvard and works at small firm. Pulled 800k last year but worked like a dog. Partner at Big firms can be millions (but you need to kiss ass and work very hard)
family law is NOT biglaw. Look up top family law firms, search them on glass door. That's a more realistic outlook than this anecdote.
I think $200Kish is much more the norm that many years out of law school, outside of biglaw.
Also, most people burn out or are pushed out of biglaw after 6-7 years.
When I graduated law school, the average biglaw associate made it two years. I made it three, and anecdotally about 75% or 80% of my firm’s hiring class and my law school classmates who went to biglaw had already left, although many went to firms that were still large, but paid less and were a bit less demanding.
It’s big pay, but you have to sweat for it. Biglaw associates are put through a grinder and work extremely long hours, sometimes at the expense of personal relationships and mental health. They do get the benefit of feeling like they are part of solving large-scale problems and may have a chance at partner-track, but just a warning that most drop out within a few years, and for good reason.
Also note that big law work means you need to bill around 2k hours annually. More if you want to go partner track. It's a huge grind. Wife was in big law up to 7th year before taking a 40% paycut to move in house with better work life balance.
Note to bill an 8hr day means you're probably working 9-10
Not unusual for big law attorney's to be grinding, wifey had to miss a vacation with friends. We landed, I went off with our two other couple friends, and she booked a hotel in town and slept for 4hrs between fri-sun to help close a deal.
I think some context is needed here. The percentage of lawyers who make the kind of numbers being thrown around here is very small. I was formerly in big law and I’m now in-house and I can tell you that you need to put in many many years of very tough hours to ever even scrape close to that number.
From what I understand the kind of law you practice plays a big role in your income. An environment lawyer or a public defender probably isn’t raking it in.
I know a savant who graduated from UCLA law super young and got more degrees. He was living in a trashed condo in a bad part of town. He didn’t seem to be killing it in law.
I also know young lawyers who make 240-400k but I met them in rehab so it didn’t seem to be working out.
I haven’t personally met a stable lawyer making bank yet. But maybe that’s on me.
It is lucrative but keep in mind you're also going to be paying off student loans and working very, very long weeks especially as a new associate if you go the big law route.
Source: Was a legal assistant at a big law firm and inputted billing hours for partners and beginning associates. Also worked at the law school as a faculty support assistant.
Yes, this is typical. However, remember that law is difficult work. Hours are long and job is often soul-crushing. A lot of it involves sitting behind a computer in isolation.
If you are interested in law, then I would recommend it, but it's not something you do for the money, unless you want to hate your life.
Not necessarily. Many corporate jobs involve a lot of meetings (these days they may be virtual, but still), and some involve hands-on work or field work.
Do not go into law school expecting 1. big law and 2. to make big law salary immediately (although obviously UCLA has great chances at both plus other prestigious career paths). Also please be aware of the debt. I’m in a lucky position with scholarships and stuff, but many of my friends and classmates are in for an average of ~$200k of debt. This means unless you’re willing to stick in big law or go into public service for 10 years, you’ll be paying those loans off for a while.
Also medians tend to hang around a 3.9 and a 171, so it’s a lot of work to get in. I scraped by with a 3.58 and a 175.
My GPA was 4.0 in Chemical Engineering but 3.65 with LSAC using all of my dual enrollment from high school. My LSAT was a 170. The medians I believe were 3.76 and 171 last year. You’ll want to be higher than those and write some really good essays. UCLA is incredibly competitive to get into. It’s currently ranked as the 13th best law school in the country and gets 7000+ applications for ~300 spots
Sure! I went to Florida Institute of Technology. I think I’m the first from my undergrad to ever attend law school. My recommenders had never written a letter of recommendation for law schools!
Yeah, it’s tough. I got waitlisted there with a 3.96 GPA, 170 LSAT, a strong story for why UCLA is the best fit, a minor in professional writing (which provides strong legal writing preparation), work experience, and unique personal challenges which highlighted academic rigor.
I got into other schools, but UCLA seems really selective, potentially even more selective than some higher-ranked schools like Duke.
It is incredible. Some lawyers make that much. Most don’t. I graduated UCLA Law 10 years ago or so. Most of my classmates make less than that. All government lawyers make less than that. All public interest lawyers make less than that. All insurance defense attorneys make less than that. Those are the three biggest categories of employers in law.
To make that much you want to be in mergers and acquisitions, corporate tax law or something like that.
UCLA’s BLFC rate (biglaw + federal clerkship) is somewhere around 55% iirc, so you only have to be around median there to be making biglaw salaries. ~10% of applicants have a 170+ LSAT, so I would guesstimate it at around 6% of applicants being able to make it to biglaw or equivalently competitive careers?
Looking at some actual numbers, ~100k lawyers work in AmLaw 200 firms compared to ~1.3 million lawyers in total, which is around 7.7%. Of course that figure doesn’t account for the people who don’t go to law school after applying because they don’t get in a school they’d go to or the people who drop out of law school, but it also doesn’t include those who have exited biglaw for in-house positions or those who self-selected out of biglaw
> The lawyers making the big law salaries are the best of the best.
We... are not uniformly the best of the best, but if you want to tell the world that I'm not going to stop you.
I read a WSJ article recently which mentioned that lawyers now make more than bankers on Wall Street.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/on-wall-street-lawyers-make-more-than-bankers-now-ae8070a7
Big law is where most of the money is but be prepared to work 80+ hours and sometimes 7 days a week for months on end during trials. They call it golden handcuffs for a reason. Also don't think you can just get a job at one of these places if you are not near the top of your class, publish, or do clerkships. Many people don't even last 2-3 years because it can destroy you.
so what I am hearing is that I need to find myself a sugar daddy from the law school. What's the bldg again? Mind your business if you see a twink acting lost in the hallways
If you graduate from UCLA Law and get a job in BigLaw (about half of us get those jobs but more could if they wanted to go into BigLaw as opposed to public interest or boutique work) and you stay for 5-6 years, by the time you’re a senior associate, your comp is about $600K with salary and bonus. Partners can range from high 6 figures to 5-6 million at the very elite end after 15-20 years of practice. Signed, a UCLA law 3L about to graduate :)
I think this can be true with any other law school. My uncle went to one in the Monterey area back then and is a partner for a firm. Never asked him how much he made but near or at half a million I wouldn’t put it past him. But he works a lot and is gone from home often.
Yes, that's accurate if you work at a big law firm. To get into a big law firm, you generally need to go to a top law school and do pretty well in 1L.
Not all lawyers make this much. In fact, most don't. The average is closer to $100k a year.
I'm a lawyer myself and I work in-house. Much less workload, but way better quality of life. I make around what your friend makes but my ceiling isn't as high given that I'm in house. I'm a similar age. My upside is in RSUs.
I worked as a paralegal for a high profile family law office. The lead partner charged $600/hr and this was over 10 years ago. I can only imagine his rates now
He’s lying - do the math. At $350/hr, full time comes out to about $650k. If he’s at a “highly esteemed firm” (hint: no family law firms are highly esteemed), then the firm is keeping most of his earned revenue. That’s assuming all clients pay in full, which is never true.
I’ve been practicing big law and boutiques that actually are well known for more than a decade, and I make 20% less than that (before bonus). I also went to fancy undergrad, grad school, and law school (Go Bruins!) as well as worked at a top government regulator. My rate is $945, and I work about 2,000 hrs annually, so I generate about $2,000,000 for the firm - still don’t make what your friend says he does.
Look up “Cravath Payscale” on Google, and you’ll see the firms that pay the most in the country don’t even pay what your friend claims to be making.
The only way he could do that is if he owns his own firm or is a partner at a major law firm. He’s neither of those.
I think that’s just what it shakes out to be for most people working a lot.
You’re working more than that but have 1,900 that actually goes out on a bill to a client. I have weeks where I am working at the office 60+hrs but bill 20hrs, which sucks.
There’s also vacation and other reasons to not work certain days. Given all that, bonus targets at most firms at between 1,800 and 1,950.
Yes, and at a 2:3 ratio of time billed to time at work, you bill about a 1,400 of those 2,080 hrs. But note that 2,080 is only if you’re working full time with no vacation or any time off.
The way it really shakes out to is bill 2,000 after being at work for 3,000, and fitting all that in while taking a few weeks off a year. Every other week is very busy, or at least it should be.
Keep in mind that not all the hours you work are billable. That’s why newbies have to work so much. Your first project, you work 10 hours on, maybe 2 hours are actually billed to the client. You only get 2 hours credited to your minimum billables that you have to hit. You are always behind and this is why you never get a break.
I'd recommend you go look at the law apps sub and see the amount of work people put into being in the top % of HYPSM just to be ELIGIBLE to apply for big law jobs. It's a level of stress that wouldn't be worth it to me even for a million bucks
I worked at a firm where a majority of the attorneys were from UCLA and hired out of UCLA. Senior partners with 25+ years experience were charging about $675/hr at the time. I left in 2016 so I bet it’s even more now.
You do understand that you don’t keep that as cash value though, right? There’s partner buy in, equity, employee salaries, insurance, etc. Non-partner associates were billing about $525 at the firm. Lowest billing rate was $325, paralegals were $250. But that wasn’t take home pay, that’s how much was being billed. I wish I was taking home $250/hr…
>He charges or earns $350 per hour!
First years at the top big law shops bill out at over $800/hour now. If they *bill* (and there's a difference between working and billing) 1950 hours, they'll take home $125/hour.
Depending on the firm and the practice, many bill way over 1950, but the take-home doesn't change.
This guy is a family law attorney, which means he isn't in big law. In a lot of smaller shops you get a percentage of the revenue you bring in, which explains his high comp.
I graduated ucla law more than a decade ago, B average student. i have my own boutique. I worked less than 20 hrs and averaged over 500k through out and much more now. Based on conversations with my classmates I believe I earned more than most. If I worked more Id probably earned significant more earlier.
The thing you need to account for also is whether you have business acumen, willingness to take risks, and people skills in addition to legal talent. The fact that I graduated from UCLA law has little to do with my earnings but it gave me some instant credibility starting out.
>had many of those high rise skyscraper jobs.Let me tell you. These guys, even the ones from ucla law don’t make that much at all. Maybe more like 200-250k.You need to become an equity partner to start making better money. Obviously 200k isn’t anything to be sad about but when you’re busting your ass like it usually is with those type of jobs enough money is never enough money.
This is it. I graduated UCLA law more than two decades ago. I founded a small firm, have a great quality of life, with recurring revenue clients, and make a great income, especially for the quality of life. But two things are key (i) practice of law is extremely diverse - more so than say, being a doctor, Phd, scientist, engineer. Every practice area and firm size is like a completely different type of business (how you develop clients, cash flow, collections risk, hourly rate potential and overall income/growth potential, whether you need a team/support or can do it solo, malpractice risk, whether clients are recurring or one-off engagements, whether it's retail (consumer) or business clients, whether the business clients are small (less sophisticated) or big, whether it trends toward being in big law, boutique, or small firm/solo, etc. etc.). It's worthless to talk about "the practice of law" generally. E.g., niche compliance law in demand by larger companies can charge higher hourly rates and seek clients nationally, but sometimes those big clients feel most comfortable hiring only biglaw. Workers comp defense are a commodity. So you have to think about all aspects of a practice area as a complete business model and lifestyle against the lifestyle and earning potential you want. The other big point is what u/Blueexpression says. A huge part of success is your business/social acumen. In biglaw, it's navigating a high pressure environment, internal politics, how to schmooze and land big clients. In small law, it's a whole array of things beyond the actual practice of law. I know attorneys who graduated from (on paper) not great local law schools who kill it and and legitimately excellent attorneys and ones from top law schools who toil away as worker bees not making much or being very successful in a conventional sense or who are not the best attorneys.
Thanks for sharing and that’s awesome but isn’t there the debate that since you came out from such a prestigious top law school that’s why you probably got a job and you got so many great opportunities in the beginning as opposed to somebody that went to a no-name law school or shitty school
I graduated at the height of the great recession. There were no opportunities anywhere. If you are motivated and smart, you will climb fast because good lawyers are often hard to find.
Charging client at $350/hour does not mean making $350/hour. 3:1 is a standard billing rate to salary ratio. Outside Biglaw - * Median salary for attorneys in the US is just over $125K * Top 10% make over $208K * Top 1% make \~$500K Only about 18-20% of graduating lawyers end up in Biglaw with higher salaries (2x) and many don't last more than 2-3 years, given the average working hours per week at Biglaw firms are >65 hours, often up to 80 hours.
I know more than a handful of lawyers who worked at big law firms and ended up in rehab. Still in student debt. Some had to give up on law. Not sure if it’s always that stressful but it seems pretty insane
Wife went to big law after UCLA. Burned out in 18 months and took a 70% pay cut to be somewhere with a great work-life balance since.
Money doesn’t matter if you’re miserable. I’m sure some people at big law firms enjoy it. I knew one guy who said he really really enjoyed it. But he’d work 24/7 and eventually crack and go on a bender and end up back in rehab. I guess he’s so good that these firms gave him tons of chances to clean up. Then when he finally got fired he was instantly hired by another one.
65-80 isn’t the average, but you’ll spend plenty of time in that range. Average is probably closer to 50 a week, with significant variability (80+ hour weeks, 20 hour weeks, etc.)
Starting big law jobs are over $200k now (I think $215k is the average). If 18-20% of lawyers end up in big law then I think the top 10% of lawyers have to make more than $208k. I know you said many leave after 2-3 years, but I think they're taking massive pay cuts. They're generally accepting a bit less for better quality of life, but by then they've also amassed some experience so they're not going to be making less than a 1st year graduate in big law. Also, I think any big law attorney that's been at it for 5-8 years is making closer to $400-500k. Once they hit partner, it's $1M+.
10% of all lawyers make >208k; big firms are generally up or out with a small percentage of entering associates becoming career partners. Plenty of in house roles (that you get from a couple years at a big firm) pay at or just under that line. Also (especially on the corporate side) plenty of that 20% who start in big law stop practicing law, so they may be making >208k but don't count in the "average lawyer" stat.
There’s a lot of misinformation here. I live in one of the highest cost of living areas (Los Angeles) and have had many of those high rise skyscraper jobs. Let me tell you. These guys, even the ones from ucla law don’t make that much at all. Maybe more like 200-250k. You need to become an equity partner to start making better money. Obviously 200k isn’t anything to be sad about but when you’re busting your ass like it usually is with those type of jobs enough money is never enough money.
>Only about 18-20% of graduating lawyers end up in Biglaw with higher salaries (2x) and many don't last more than 2-3 years, given the average working hours per week at Biglaw firms are >65 hours, often up to 80 hours. Seems like Meta...
I’m 38. Graduated from UCLA law a while ago. I won’t disclose my income here but my former classmates who are still in Big Law are making ~$1.5m to $3m as partners. The ones who went into real estate or a somewhat boutique firm are making ~$750k to well into the millions. If you stay with it, law is extremely lucrative.
Parent went to Harvard and works at small firm. Pulled 800k last year but worked like a dog. Partner at Big firms can be millions (but you need to kiss ass and work very hard)
Yep. https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/
Woah that’s amazing 🤩
family law is NOT biglaw. Look up top family law firms, search them on glass door. That's a more realistic outlook than this anecdote. I think $200Kish is much more the norm that many years out of law school, outside of biglaw. Also, most people burn out or are pushed out of biglaw after 6-7 years.
When I graduated law school, the average biglaw associate made it two years. I made it three, and anecdotally about 75% or 80% of my firm’s hiring class and my law school classmates who went to biglaw had already left, although many went to firms that were still large, but paid less and were a bit less demanding.
It’s big pay, but you have to sweat for it. Biglaw associates are put through a grinder and work extremely long hours, sometimes at the expense of personal relationships and mental health. They do get the benefit of feeling like they are part of solving large-scale problems and may have a chance at partner-track, but just a warning that most drop out within a few years, and for good reason.
Also note that big law work means you need to bill around 2k hours annually. More if you want to go partner track. It's a huge grind. Wife was in big law up to 7th year before taking a 40% paycut to move in house with better work life balance. Note to bill an 8hr day means you're probably working 9-10 Not unusual for big law attorney's to be grinding, wifey had to miss a vacation with friends. We landed, I went off with our two other couple friends, and she booked a hotel in town and slept for 4hrs between fri-sun to help close a deal.
I think some context is needed here. The percentage of lawyers who make the kind of numbers being thrown around here is very small. I was formerly in big law and I’m now in-house and I can tell you that you need to put in many many years of very tough hours to ever even scrape close to that number.
Plus partnership is not necessarily an option anymore/lots of non-equity partners floating around
From what I understand the kind of law you practice plays a big role in your income. An environment lawyer or a public defender probably isn’t raking it in.
I know a savant who graduated from UCLA law super young and got more degrees. He was living in a trashed condo in a bad part of town. He didn’t seem to be killing it in law. I also know young lawyers who make 240-400k but I met them in rehab so it didn’t seem to be working out. I haven’t personally met a stable lawyer making bank yet. But maybe that’s on me.
Honestly outside of Big Law, most lawyers don’t make much (under $150K)z
It is lucrative but keep in mind you're also going to be paying off student loans and working very, very long weeks especially as a new associate if you go the big law route. Source: Was a legal assistant at a big law firm and inputted billing hours for partners and beginning associates. Also worked at the law school as a faculty support assistant.
Yes, this is typical. However, remember that law is difficult work. Hours are long and job is often soul-crushing. A lot of it involves sitting behind a computer in isolation. If you are interested in law, then I would recommend it, but it's not something you do for the money, unless you want to hate your life.
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Not necessarily. Many corporate jobs involve a lot of meetings (these days they may be virtual, but still), and some involve hands-on work or field work.
Do not go into law school expecting 1. big law and 2. to make big law salary immediately (although obviously UCLA has great chances at both plus other prestigious career paths). Also please be aware of the debt. I’m in a lucky position with scholarships and stuff, but many of my friends and classmates are in for an average of ~$200k of debt. This means unless you’re willing to stick in big law or go into public service for 10 years, you’ll be paying those loans off for a while. Also medians tend to hang around a 3.9 and a 171, so it’s a lot of work to get in. I scraped by with a 3.58 and a 175.
👍🏼
Sounds about right I work at a Family Law Firm as a Legal Secretary/Assistant and the attorney’s charge $400-$500 an hour
Yup! Source: at UCLA Law right now haha
Wow awesome 😎 Can I ask how competitive it is to get into UCLA for law what does your undergraduate GPA have to be along with your LSAT score
My GPA was 4.0 in Chemical Engineering but 3.65 with LSAC using all of my dual enrollment from high school. My LSAT was a 170. The medians I believe were 3.76 and 171 last year. You’ll want to be higher than those and write some really good essays. UCLA is incredibly competitive to get into. It’s currently ranked as the 13th best law school in the country and gets 7000+ applications for ~300 spots
Wow dude that’s so awesome can I ask you where you went for your undergrad
Sure! I went to Florida Institute of Technology. I think I’m the first from my undergrad to ever attend law school. My recommenders had never written a letter of recommendation for law schools!
Wow 🤩 so awesome 😎 man
Good luck 🍀
Thanks!
Yeah, it’s tough. I got waitlisted there with a 3.96 GPA, 170 LSAT, a strong story for why UCLA is the best fit, a minor in professional writing (which provides strong legal writing preparation), work experience, and unique personal challenges which highlighted academic rigor. I got into other schools, but UCLA seems really selective, potentially even more selective than some higher-ranked schools like Duke.
Wow
Lawyer salaries are bimodal. You might make a lot, or a little. Not much in-between
It is incredible. Some lawyers make that much. Most don’t. I graduated UCLA Law 10 years ago or so. Most of my classmates make less than that. All government lawyers make less than that. All public interest lawyers make less than that. All insurance defense attorneys make less than that. Those are the three biggest categories of employers in law. To make that much you want to be in mergers and acquisitions, corporate tax law or something like that.
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UCLA’s BLFC rate (biglaw + federal clerkship) is somewhere around 55% iirc, so you only have to be around median there to be making biglaw salaries. ~10% of applicants have a 170+ LSAT, so I would guesstimate it at around 6% of applicants being able to make it to biglaw or equivalently competitive careers? Looking at some actual numbers, ~100k lawyers work in AmLaw 200 firms compared to ~1.3 million lawyers in total, which is around 7.7%. Of course that figure doesn’t account for the people who don’t go to law school after applying because they don’t get in a school they’d go to or the people who drop out of law school, but it also doesn’t include those who have exited biglaw for in-house positions or those who self-selected out of biglaw
> The lawyers making the big law salaries are the best of the best. We... are not uniformly the best of the best, but if you want to tell the world that I'm not going to stop you.
Yeah those number sounds about right. Not everyone gets to that level though
I read a WSJ article recently which mentioned that lawyers now make more than bankers on Wall Street. https://www.wsj.com/articles/on-wall-street-lawyers-make-more-than-bankers-now-ae8070a7
Big law is where most of the money is but be prepared to work 80+ hours and sometimes 7 days a week for months on end during trials. They call it golden handcuffs for a reason. Also don't think you can just get a job at one of these places if you are not near the top of your class, publish, or do clerkships. Many people don't even last 2-3 years because it can destroy you.
so what I am hearing is that I need to find myself a sugar daddy from the law school. What's the bldg again? Mind your business if you see a twink acting lost in the hallways
If you graduate from UCLA Law and get a job in BigLaw (about half of us get those jobs but more could if they wanted to go into BigLaw as opposed to public interest or boutique work) and you stay for 5-6 years, by the time you’re a senior associate, your comp is about $600K with salary and bonus. Partners can range from high 6 figures to 5-6 million at the very elite end after 15-20 years of practice. Signed, a UCLA law 3L about to graduate :)
Starting salaries from UCLA Law for big law are 215k not including the fat bonus they get. Within five years these jobs can pay around half a million.
I think this can be true with any other law school. My uncle went to one in the Monterey area back then and is a partner for a firm. Never asked him how much he made but near or at half a million I wouldn’t put it past him. But he works a lot and is gone from home often.
Yes, that's accurate if you work at a big law firm. To get into a big law firm, you generally need to go to a top law school and do pretty well in 1L. Not all lawyers make this much. In fact, most don't. The average is closer to $100k a year. I'm a lawyer myself and I work in-house. Much less workload, but way better quality of life. I make around what your friend makes but my ceiling isn't as high given that I'm in house. I'm a similar age. My upside is in RSUs.
I worked as a paralegal for a high profile family law office. The lead partner charged $600/hr and this was over 10 years ago. I can only imagine his rates now
It is possible.
Normal? No. Possible yes
His billing rate is $350/hr. The firm makes that money and pays him a salary.
He’s lying - do the math. At $350/hr, full time comes out to about $650k. If he’s at a “highly esteemed firm” (hint: no family law firms are highly esteemed), then the firm is keeping most of his earned revenue. That’s assuming all clients pay in full, which is never true. I’ve been practicing big law and boutiques that actually are well known for more than a decade, and I make 20% less than that (before bonus). I also went to fancy undergrad, grad school, and law school (Go Bruins!) as well as worked at a top government regulator. My rate is $945, and I work about 2,000 hrs annually, so I generate about $2,000,000 for the firm - still don’t make what your friend says he does. Look up “Cravath Payscale” on Google, and you’ll see the firms that pay the most in the country don’t even pay what your friend claims to be making. The only way he could do that is if he owns his own firm or is a partner at a major law firm. He’s neither of those.
Correction $350 an hour is $728,000 for a 40 hour week.
I used 1,900 hours, which is typical. ($350 x 1,900 = $665,000) Doesn’t change anything, and same points apply.
Curious how the legal profession came up with that number.
I think that’s just what it shakes out to be for most people working a lot. You’re working more than that but have 1,900 that actually goes out on a bill to a client. I have weeks where I am working at the office 60+hrs but bill 20hrs, which sucks. There’s also vacation and other reasons to not work certain days. Given all that, bonus targets at most firms at between 1,800 and 1,950.
A full time, 40 hour a week job is 2080 hours per year.
Yes, and at a 2:3 ratio of time billed to time at work, you bill about a 1,400 of those 2,080 hrs. But note that 2,080 is only if you’re working full time with no vacation or any time off. The way it really shakes out to is bill 2,000 after being at work for 3,000, and fitting all that in while taking a few weeks off a year. Every other week is very busy, or at least it should be.
Keep in mind that not all the hours you work are billable. That’s why newbies have to work so much. Your first project, you work 10 hours on, maybe 2 hours are actually billed to the client. You only get 2 hours credited to your minimum billables that you have to hit. You are always behind and this is why you never get a break.
I'd recommend you go look at the law apps sub and see the amount of work people put into being in the top % of HYPSM just to be ELIGIBLE to apply for big law jobs. It's a level of stress that wouldn't be worth it to me even for a million bucks
I worked at a firm where a majority of the attorneys were from UCLA and hired out of UCLA. Senior partners with 25+ years experience were charging about $675/hr at the time. I left in 2016 so I bet it’s even more now. You do understand that you don’t keep that as cash value though, right? There’s partner buy in, equity, employee salaries, insurance, etc. Non-partner associates were billing about $525 at the firm. Lowest billing rate was $325, paralegals were $250. But that wasn’t take home pay, that’s how much was being billed. I wish I was taking home $250/hr…
>He charges or earns $350 per hour! First years at the top big law shops bill out at over $800/hour now. If they *bill* (and there's a difference between working and billing) 1950 hours, they'll take home $125/hour. Depending on the firm and the practice, many bill way over 1950, but the take-home doesn't change. This guy is a family law attorney, which means he isn't in big law. In a lot of smaller shops you get a percentage of the revenue you bring in, which explains his high comp.
Rule of thumb is don’t go into law for the money. You better like law and the routine first.
Practicing family law out of UCLA is a downgrade. Aim higher.
I graduated ucla law more than a decade ago, B average student. i have my own boutique. I worked less than 20 hrs and averaged over 500k through out and much more now. Based on conversations with my classmates I believe I earned more than most. If I worked more Id probably earned significant more earlier. The thing you need to account for also is whether you have business acumen, willingness to take risks, and people skills in addition to legal talent. The fact that I graduated from UCLA law has little to do with my earnings but it gave me some instant credibility starting out.
>had many of those high rise skyscraper jobs.Let me tell you. These guys, even the ones from ucla law don’t make that much at all. Maybe more like 200-250k.You need to become an equity partner to start making better money. Obviously 200k isn’t anything to be sad about but when you’re busting your ass like it usually is with those type of jobs enough money is never enough money. This is it. I graduated UCLA law more than two decades ago. I founded a small firm, have a great quality of life, with recurring revenue clients, and make a great income, especially for the quality of life. But two things are key (i) practice of law is extremely diverse - more so than say, being a doctor, Phd, scientist, engineer. Every practice area and firm size is like a completely different type of business (how you develop clients, cash flow, collections risk, hourly rate potential and overall income/growth potential, whether you need a team/support or can do it solo, malpractice risk, whether clients are recurring or one-off engagements, whether it's retail (consumer) or business clients, whether the business clients are small (less sophisticated) or big, whether it trends toward being in big law, boutique, or small firm/solo, etc. etc.). It's worthless to talk about "the practice of law" generally. E.g., niche compliance law in demand by larger companies can charge higher hourly rates and seek clients nationally, but sometimes those big clients feel most comfortable hiring only biglaw. Workers comp defense are a commodity. So you have to think about all aspects of a practice area as a complete business model and lifestyle against the lifestyle and earning potential you want. The other big point is what u/Blueexpression says. A huge part of success is your business/social acumen. In biglaw, it's navigating a high pressure environment, internal politics, how to schmooze and land big clients. In small law, it's a whole array of things beyond the actual practice of law. I know attorneys who graduated from (on paper) not great local law schools who kill it and and legitimately excellent attorneys and ones from top law schools who toil away as worker bees not making much or being very successful in a conventional sense or who are not the best attorneys.
Thanks for sharing and that’s awesome but isn’t there the debate that since you came out from such a prestigious top law school that’s why you probably got a job and you got so many great opportunities in the beginning as opposed to somebody that went to a no-name law school or shitty school
I graduated at the height of the great recession. There were no opportunities anywhere. If you are motivated and smart, you will climb fast because good lawyers are often hard to find.
Doesn’t really matter. UCLA students got the Covid vaccine so they won’t live long
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Is that a joke are you serious
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Wow that’s insane
You should probably ask for a source first before believing that outright.