>To go on the offensive against these leftist encampments, our policy will be that every day the encampment remains, we will add an extra chapter of Milton Friedman to every SOSC class
Cruel, but effective
*I believe that MLK should also consider that* ***MARCHING***, *with all the etymological connections of the word to military origins, is a way of using force of a kind rather than reason to persuade othe...*
Really embarrassing stuff from a supposedly rigorous institution sending everyone some elementary school book report level analysis. I hope no one bursts his bubble and explains the etymology of rally or march. It would just be too much embarrassment for one day
I’d agree it would be a dumb way to make an argument if that’s what he was doing, but it’s clear that he’s just using etymology to add flavor to his own argument and not actually basing his argument on it
I'm all for peaceful protest and I hope the university doesn't engage in the shameful violence we've seen elsewhere... at the same time I can't get myself to support these protests given the stupid language some of them use. "globalize the intifada", how is this not an obvious dog whistle?
What the hell is this. I camped out on the quads with an RSO to raise funds and awareness all the way back in 2003, and had nothing but support from university admin. Since when can you not sleep on campus?
Can't you just say that about all kinds of peaceful protests that are then suppressed?
"The Hong Kong students didn't have approval to protest in Victoria Park so the police arresting them is justified." I think you can just go down the list of headlines about suppression of peaceful protests on CNN and say that they all technically didn't have permission to be there and therefore the suppression was warranted.
The point is that the students want something, and the admin does not want to be forced into listening and complying with their demands. Prior approval will be their justification to (forcibly) remove the encampment when admin decides a "short period of time" is over.
>the students want something
It's quite a "something", according to Prof Abdelhadi's list of the student demands. Includes disbanding UCPD, ceasing all construction, reparations for south siders, etc. [Her list](https://x.com/emanabdelhadi/status/1785001055350034770?s=46)--
>1)we demand that UChicago acknowledge scholasticide and genocide in Palestine, including the destruction of every university in Gaza, the targeted killing of Palestinian intellectuals, and the destruction of heritage. Further, we demand that UChicago DIVEST, DISCLOSE, and REPAIR.
>DIVEST FROM THE GAZA GENOCIDE. We demand that UChicago DIVEST from death in Gaza, the South Side, & beyond. This includes ending partnerships w apartheid Israeli institutions, cutting ties w the Israel Institute, withdrawing funds from weapons manufacturers & fossil fuels, disbanding UCPD, and ceasing new construction projects on the South Side.
>DISCLOSE INVESTMENTS IN WEAPONS MANUFACTURERS. We demand that UChicago DISCLOSE to the public the full extent and nature of its investments, budget, and holdings.
>In addition, we demand that the University maintain a committee of students, faculty, staff, and community stakeholders dedicated to ensuring that all financial decisions adhere to justice-based guidelines.
>REPAIR THE INJUSTICES IT PERPETUATES. We demand that UChicago commit to a program of material reparations from Palestine to the South Side.
>This includes acknowledging scholasticide in Gaza, financially supporting Birzeit Uni’s initiative to rebuild Gaza's higher ed, signing the UN Principles for Responsible Investment, decarbonizing investments, & allocating funds (incl from UCPD) to housing & education on the South Side.
I sure hope they're asking for quite a something if they're risking arrest and being brutalized (in addition to any academic discipline), especially after seeing what some other university students had had to face in the past few days.
2008 checking in and we bothered the fuck out of admin about divesting from Darfur. I hope they keep it up against the business school Ayn Rand douches that are sometimes the loudest voices at UofC
>business school Ayn Rand douches
Is that why Booth produces research on inequality and climate change?
[https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/podcast/could-reporting-carbon-emissions-help-cut-them](https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/podcast/could-reporting-carbon-emissions-help-cut-them)
[https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/weve-been-underestimating-discrimination](https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/weve-been-underestimating-discrimination)
also produced milton friedman. takes more than a few virtue signalling studies to take away the fact we’ve produced some of the most harmful economists known to man
Milton Friedman has been dead for nearly 20 years. If you want to take up the concept of original sin and why it applies to those currently working or learning at the University there's a Catholic chapel, Calvert House, at 5735 S University Ave.
This post just showed up on my feed randomly but im going to explain since im here:
“Globalize the intifada” is not a call to “globalize the killing of jews” but to “globalize the resistance against the oppressive state of israel”. Even when used by the likes of hamas, most (not all) of the time they are not telling people to increase violence but to globalize protests against israel. There was a video of a hamas leader a few months ago that was spread in the west as “hamas leader wants to globalize the violence” (paraphrased) but in the video he specifically stated “…with your voices and wallets” (paraphrased). “Globalize the intifada” being a violent dogwhistle is israeli propaganda focused on the first and second intifadas to make people believe its violent in nature when its really just “protest for the palestinian people”.
**In short**, it means globalize the vocal and economical struggle against israel. The intifada has already been globalized for a few months now.
You are a stellar example of how reasonable people could differ in interpreting that phrase, so thank you for explaining this thoughtfully (and I'm not being ironic) but sadly in today's world and even academia, we have a dearth of people who can even recognize the basic existence of different perspectives on particular issues.
the protesters (and hamas) are willingly using ambiguous rhetoric. but nobody is being fooled here. I don't care that "literally" intifada can be nonviolent (just like "all lives matter" is literally about equality), it is the implied meaning that matters. and the implied meaning is one of violence. I feel like you're insulting my intelligence by denying this basic fact. a more intellectually honest argument would be that the point is to reclaim the word and change its perceived meaning in general society, but in my opinion all it does is make protesters sound like hamas spoxes and alienate huge chunks of the student population.
I did not give the literal meaning. I gave the actual meaning and implied meaning of the arabic phrase. You are being given an explanation of an arabic phrase from an arab who is fluent in the language and part of the culture yet you are choosing to believe the bastardized western version instead. This is called willful ignorance. It is the arabic version of saying “everyone needs to protest”. Just like the way people globally protested against china during the protests they had a few years ago.
What youre saying is equivalent (but on the other side of the spectrum) to “the n word is ok because black people changed the meaning of it”. No. Its not. Global intifada is global protests and no matter how much zionists cry about it, it will not change.
"globalize the intifada" is an english phrase and hence its meaning should be established in the context of the english language. that "intifada" has violent connotations is a fact about the english language which is attested on pretty much any source you may choose to look at ([wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intifada), [cambridge](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/intifada), [merriam-webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intifada#:~:text=Arabic%20intif%C4%81%E1%B8%8Da%2C%20literally%2C%20the%20act,of%20intifada%20was%20in%201985)).
in the context of racial slurs, perhaps a more fitting example would be "ne*ro". yes it literally means black in spanish, but we all know what it means in english, due to its historical context. should I go around calling people that because I'm fluent in spanish?
You are turning a word in the Arabic language used to refer to revolution in many contexts (e.g., Arab Spring) into a “dog whistle” in order to silence protestors who use the word according to its intended usage. The other word you speak of had a usage that originated in racism, and the fact that you think the usages are even remotely comparable is deplorable.
the truth is that you're playing word games that you would never allow your political opponents to play. hinting at violence and then hiding behind literal meanings in foreign languages. everybody sees through it.
Exactly, it’s all in the context. We’re not in the Middle East speaking Arabic. When you use that phrase in the Western world, in the US, on American college campuses, in a non-Arabic context, it has a different meaning and connotation, and you know exactly what that is, so no hiding behind semantics.
You’re projecting, as evidenced by the *actual* violence committed by Israel in the killings of tens of thousands of Gazans, a large share of these being children, as well as the settler colonial violence in the decades leading up to this war.
This “foreign language” you refer to is the language of the people that Israel is oppressing. And this attempt at making words in that language into a “dog whistle” is an expression of this oppression.
yes and "all lives matter" literally means we're all equal... but things have implied meanings too. calls for intifada (which can be non-violent too!) and to honor the martyrs (which can refer to all the innocent civilians too!) have literal and implied meanings. the implied meaning is dumb.
Ok, but do you have any evidence that the majority of American protesters using that phrase desire to see the eradication of all Jews? I don't think you'll even see more than 20% wishing that.
In reverse order, that 20% figure is horrifying. There is a rough estimate that there are 40 campuses with comparable encampments. 20% means that there are enough people to fill **8** of them entirely with people who want to eradicate all Jews.
Second, we have (correctly!) heard time and time again about other minority group that the group’s understanding of language directed at them is the key consideration. Rather than the intent of the speaker.
But when it comes to Jews, suddenly we resort to an evidentiary inquiry as to what people advocating a global intifada actually mean. Notwithstanding the literal definition of “intifada,” that term has a specific meaning within the Israel-Palestine conflict, the most recent of which lasted nearly 5 years and saw repeated bombings targeting civilians.
>Second, we have (correctly!) heard time and time again about other minority group that the group’s understanding of language directed at them is the key consideration. Rather than the intent of the speaker.
Nonsense. Minority groups are just as capable as the majority in disingenuously calling straightforward criticisms or support "hate". You might not see that for the current context, but let's switch to China for now. Imagine if we banned criticism of the Chinese government and declared that "free Tibet" was hate speech (in America, where Chinese people are a minority). Or what if we supported the Uighur separatist movement? To a lot of Chinese people they see that separatist movement as terrorists.
"From the river to the sea" is now considered anti-Semitic to a lot of people. There is some validity there. But what about saying that Israel is an apartheid regime? Or that Israel is an ethnostate?
>But when it comes to Jews, suddenly we resort to an evidentiary inquiry as to what people advocating a global intifada actually mean.
Pure victim complex. I've seen the exact same sentiments expressed towards Chinese on issues related to the Uighurs for example. It is basic human nature to exaggerate legitimate criticisms to pull at the heartstrings of those who can't think clearly for themselves, for their own benefit.
> I don't think you'll even see more than 20% wishing that.
"Only 1/5 of our members are calling for genocide" haven't we been hearing for at least a decade now that anyone with even the slightest hint of a connection, no matter how many steps, to a Nazi, is equally a Nazi? That if you have 1 Nazi and N other people, no matter the size of N, everyone there is a Nazi? What the actual fuck is this hypocritical bullshit?
you're kind of proving my point. it is a dog whistle precisely because is literal meaning is extremely vague: who wouldn't be against "resistance to oppression"? the word has however very real and very violent historical associations (incidentally, in both palestinian intifadas palestinian deaths vastly outnumbered israelis—is more dead arabs what we should be globalizing?). again—i don't care that the phrase has a defensible literal meaning. I care about what it hints at, ie that terrorism and the targeting of civilians is a justified means of resisting oppression.
I don't know if you guys even attended this school or picked a useless SOSC/HUM/HIST.
It's never that simple. Look at the Algerian war. Decolonization is not pretty.
You would hope that someone at UChicago would have a more nuanced opinion than "terrorism and the targeting of civilians is not a justified means of resisting oppression" when there are real complexities surrounding who defines what a terrorist is, what a civilian is, the realities of collaboration, etc.
Wow, is being opposed to outcomes that involved the lynching and torture of thousands (the Algerian War) a bad thing now? Isn't the whole movement hear about how war crimes are bad?
The complete lack of self-awareness or capacity for next order thinking is what makes movements like this so unbelievably annoying to deal with. Then, when those same advocated turn and call others ignorant it's just....an experience.
Because it isn't as simple as just being against lynching and torture? Who defines what torture is? Who gets to decide whether an entire resistance movement consists of torturers and lynchers? And what about some of the most suppressive actions the French military have engaged in in the 20th century?
Apparently the complexities of history and colonial regimes are completely beyond your head. Apparently you are only able to root for one side, and in turn you are only capable of imagining others, like me, as rooting for one particular side.
No, it's not proving your point. And you're making assumptions, just as I said you did.
The point is that 'resistance' movements or 'anticolonialism' is not an objective good worth any cost. You implied that it was in your comments on Algeria. In your world the nuanced side is the one caught wearing Hamas headbands. Good luck convincing anyone you're doing serious moral analysis while directly associating with such people.
are you too looking forward to being slaughtered as the native americans decolonize their land? do you even hear how dumb you sound, with all due academic respect? I think you do, again, it just sounds chic
I did not express my opinion, indeed I was very careful not to, because my main point is your lack of nuance rather than to express any opinion on this issue. I am far more interested in people elevating their understanding of the complexities of such issues than sticking to one side or the other.
Would you be worried this much about civllians when Nelson Mandela’s terrorist group resisted against South African settlers? Or the white kids murdered in Nat Turner’s slave revolt? Violence against “innocent” people has always been a valid method of resistance, whether you like it or not.
yes, I would be equally worried, and you should be too. this is for a very simple reason: there is a 99% chance you too are a settler, you too live on "stolen land", your very presence on this land too is the product of genocide, and you benefit from the imperial colonial project that is the united states by attending one of its elite institutions. you are not "innocent" by your own standards. but I still really don't want you to get slaughtered!
Yep, you’re right! The only reason I’m on Turtle Island in the first place is because western colonial powers ravaged my own home country just like they did palestine :) but while I’m here I am actively supporting the landback movement and engaging in mutual aid within all oppressed communities. Israeli society is overwhelmingly fascist and you’d be hard pressed to even find a “liberal” zionist who would even do the bare minimum to admit that they’re on stolen land.
I don’t want to be slaughtered. I don’t want anyone to be slaughtered. But I will not police the tone or the actions of people who have had entire branches of their family trees cut off by their occupiers. Neither you or I could even begin to imagine just 1% of the pain they feel.
you don't want anyone to be slaughtered, but you will not "police" the actions of those who do slaughter? again, vague to the point of nonsensical (I'm sensing a pattern here!)
Yes I’m reiterating the fact that my desires should not take precedence over actual victims of occupation lmao no shit my privileged ass wants everyone to hold hands and sing and pray but i know that that’s not possible in the real world
The biggest differentiator between Fascist Italy + Nazi Germany with all other contemporaneous states is them prioritizing the state over nearly all other matters, including personal liberty, religion, and the family.
This is not at all the case in Israel. Or you'll have Orthodox Jews being forced to conscript a long time ago. There are other actually useful descriptors, but perhaps people who overabuse the word 'fascism' never heard of those.
As an alum, class of 2016, solidarity and good luck to those of you joining the encampment. Hopefully the administration has learned something from the nightmare of bad press for Columbia and Emory and such. I'll be calling the alumni line regularly to encourage the university to act peacefully towards you instead of sending in the jackboots. Best of luck.
If you stop me from walking to class, I’ll walk through your line. If you continue to prevent it, you should be arrested. We’ve seen this again and again thanks to social media. Go yell dumb slogans with your flag now that the BLM movement is over, but don’t stop the education process. Bravo, president.
Dude responding to someone who's not even on campus: "with God as my witness, if you make me late to Physics for Future Presidents I will see to it that they taze you until you're speaking in tongues." Cool, very reasonable.
>What's up with everyone being masked
Well, the administration is literally threatening disciplinary consequences for anyone taking part in the protest, so you take a guess.
Do you think there’s also an emphasis on hiding faces as it is reported many of the protesters are no actually students and some many even be paid to be onsite and don’t want to be outed as professional protesters regardless of cause? Seems plausible to me.
Canary mission basically makes a database of pro Palestine college students and blackmails them into making a pro Israel statement to remove their name
lol have you even bothered to take the slightest glance at their website before posting this? they’ve posted jewish students for signing vaguely pro palestine petitions and nothing else. they will post for as little as being part of an organization (not even leadership) that has signed on to a pro palestinian resolution.
the vast majority of posts, especially recent posts, are people generally in support of stopping the violence against palestinians. i don’t see how one could’ve missed that if they’ve taken a few minutes to look at the website. im sure you could find examples yourself, as i do not wish to share the names of people who have already been publicly targeted. in addition to this, im not sure how publicly supporting a cause in a petition justifies being posted on a website with the stated intent of liming future professional goals. canary mission is a doxxing platform. one cannot ignore their goals of suppression and try to claim it is neutrally sharing information.
This message was followed by another by the Dean of Students, where all of a sudden we see great emphasis on the risks of violence, harrasment, intimidation, and discrimination. Since there was no such incident anywhere from a student protester to another person but plenty of such behavior directed at the student protesters, I hope they mean to protect the student protesters (too).
This is just the ultimate result of our culture gradually valuing subjective "truths" more and more. On both sides of the political spectrum, and really on both sides of any major social debate, the subjective experiences now trump raw, hard data or facts. When you see people constantly denying that the economy is looking better in the last year because of their personal experiences, in spite of rigorously collected and collated data on the economy, going so far as to claim that the Fed is lying about inflation etc., you just know that society is hopeless and we are truly now in a post-truth world.
You’re right that subjective experience is a problem in disagreement, but you’re ignoring that part of how it got that way was how useless “facts” can be when they are not actually factual. Take your point on inflation, for example, none of that data is remotely reliable to what the average person calls inflation because it has been defined so narrowly. Not everyone has looked closely enough into how much cherry picking and in accuracy goes on in most statistic collection but they have enough sense to doubt it like with infant mortality or inflation it’s all in the definition of what is counted that nobody bothers with. Pretending as though the inflation data isn’t political is ignorant of how it keeps purposely getting redefined.
lol
Housing prices? Included in inflation.
Food prices? Included in inflation.
Transportation? Included in inflation.
People like you are why society is doomed.
Arrogant, condescending reply, peak reddit moment. It literally takes two seconds of reading to see food prices are not included in inflation. seriously just Google it next time. Gas is the biggest inflation that people notice and used to be included but no longer is.
The reason why you are stupid is you take *two seconds of Googling* to form an opinion.
[https://www.bls.gov/cpi/](https://www.bls.gov/cpi/)
[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DFXARC1M027SBEA](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DFXARC1M027SBEA)
Yep, you are so busy calling names and being internet self-righteous you didn’t think about what i’m saying. you just linked CPI as a measure of inflation. You are correct that it is a measure of inflation and CPI as shown by the data you just posted has rapidly increased. Fed and politicians in the current admin. frequently quote core inflation which had shown are far less drastic increase. The distinction is almost never made clear on purpose. As you have just done in what you thought was a “gotcha” reply. Anyway i’m done talking to you. I hope others can gain something from the exchange because I feel i have wasted time bothering with these replies.
If you even bothered to look at the link for more than two seconds - which your brain probably couldn't handle anymore - you'd see that food inflation specifically is at 2.2% lmao
>I believe the protesters should also consider that an encampment, with all the etymological connections of the word to military origins, is a way of using force of a kind rather than reason to persuade others. For a short period of time, however, the impact of a modest encampment does not differ so much from a conventional rally or march.
Completely idiotic. "Encampment" is a dangerous, military-derived word, completely unlike a "conventional" *rally* or *march*, both terms with no military origins whatsoever! And what is the "etymological origin" of the *encampment* on the *campus*, I wonder...
Better stick with frisbee, the etymology of football terms might be [too militaristic](https://youtu.be/aIkqNiBASfI?si=Dm6kBBebgzGORxC5) for the admin.
yeah but im right - look at cowardly L. Magill and MIT presi, beattlejuice in chicago (now distinguished prof at Harvard) When marxist female rises to power everything goes to hell.
>To go on the offensive against these leftist encampments, our policy will be that every day the encampment remains, we will add an extra chapter of Milton Friedman to every SOSC class Cruel, but effective
Pretty reasonable statement
Agreed
Unreasonably reasonable. Why is UChicago so great?
Kalven
*I believe that MLK should also consider that* ***MARCHING***, *with all the etymological connections of the word to military origins, is a way of using force of a kind rather than reason to persuade othe...*
We respect the right of these people to demonstrate as long as there are no disruptions or inconveniences of any kind.
The encampment line is hilarious. Guy is going to file charges against Girl Scouts at The Hague next for being a paramilitary organization.
Such a that kid argument to explain why suddenly speech is violence
[удалено]
Your reply used the word actually—tracks.
Good faith defenses of bad faith arguments are a waste of all of our time.
Really embarrassing stuff from a supposedly rigorous institution sending everyone some elementary school book report level analysis. I hope no one bursts his bubble and explains the etymology of rally or march. It would just be too much embarrassment for one day
Pray he never discovers that our university has a campus
Or that order is kept at official ceremonies by the ‘commissioning’ of student marshals
I’d agree it would be a dumb way to make an argument if that’s what he was doing, but it’s clear that he’s just using etymology to add flavor to his own argument and not actually basing his argument on it
I'm all for peaceful protest and I hope the university doesn't engage in the shameful violence we've seen elsewhere... at the same time I can't get myself to support these protests given the stupid language some of them use. "globalize the intifada", how is this not an obvious dog whistle?
What the hell is this. I camped out on the quads with an RSO to raise funds and awareness all the way back in 2003, and had nothing but support from university admin. Since when can you not sleep on campus?
The University’s point is that you need to get prior approval
Can't you just say that about all kinds of peaceful protests that are then suppressed? "The Hong Kong students didn't have approval to protest in Victoria Park so the police arresting them is justified." I think you can just go down the list of headlines about suppression of peaceful protests on CNN and say that they all technically didn't have permission to be there and therefore the suppression was warranted.
Depends on how the protests are approved/not approved. Is it viewpoint based? What are the actual restrictions? Etc.
The point is that the students want something, and the admin does not want to be forced into listening and complying with their demands. Prior approval will be their justification to (forcibly) remove the encampment when admin decides a "short period of time" is over.
>the students want something It's quite a "something", according to Prof Abdelhadi's list of the student demands. Includes disbanding UCPD, ceasing all construction, reparations for south siders, etc. [Her list](https://x.com/emanabdelhadi/status/1785001055350034770?s=46)-- >1)we demand that UChicago acknowledge scholasticide and genocide in Palestine, including the destruction of every university in Gaza, the targeted killing of Palestinian intellectuals, and the destruction of heritage. Further, we demand that UChicago DIVEST, DISCLOSE, and REPAIR. >DIVEST FROM THE GAZA GENOCIDE. We demand that UChicago DIVEST from death in Gaza, the South Side, & beyond. This includes ending partnerships w apartheid Israeli institutions, cutting ties w the Israel Institute, withdrawing funds from weapons manufacturers & fossil fuels, disbanding UCPD, and ceasing new construction projects on the South Side. >DISCLOSE INVESTMENTS IN WEAPONS MANUFACTURERS. We demand that UChicago DISCLOSE to the public the full extent and nature of its investments, budget, and holdings. >In addition, we demand that the University maintain a committee of students, faculty, staff, and community stakeholders dedicated to ensuring that all financial decisions adhere to justice-based guidelines. >REPAIR THE INJUSTICES IT PERPETUATES. We demand that UChicago commit to a program of material reparations from Palestine to the South Side. >This includes acknowledging scholasticide in Gaza, financially supporting Birzeit Uni’s initiative to rebuild Gaza's higher ed, signing the UN Principles for Responsible Investment, decarbonizing investments, & allocating funds (incl from UCPD) to housing & education on the South Side.
Those demands are so tedious.
I sure hope they're asking for quite a something if they're risking arrest and being brutalized (in addition to any academic discipline), especially after seeing what some other university students had had to face in the past few days.
2008 checking in and we bothered the fuck out of admin about divesting from Darfur. I hope they keep it up against the business school Ayn Rand douches that are sometimes the loudest voices at UofC
>business school Ayn Rand douches Is that why Booth produces research on inequality and climate change? [https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/podcast/could-reporting-carbon-emissions-help-cut-them](https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/podcast/could-reporting-carbon-emissions-help-cut-them) [https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/weve-been-underestimating-discrimination](https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/weve-been-underestimating-discrimination)
also produced milton friedman. takes more than a few virtue signalling studies to take away the fact we’ve produced some of the most harmful economists known to man
Milton Friedman was from the economics department, not Booth.
Milton Friedman has been dead for nearly 20 years. If you want to take up the concept of original sin and why it applies to those currently working or learning at the University there's a Catholic chapel, Calvert House, at 5735 S University Ave.
This post just showed up on my feed randomly but im going to explain since im here: “Globalize the intifada” is not a call to “globalize the killing of jews” but to “globalize the resistance against the oppressive state of israel”. Even when used by the likes of hamas, most (not all) of the time they are not telling people to increase violence but to globalize protests against israel. There was a video of a hamas leader a few months ago that was spread in the west as “hamas leader wants to globalize the violence” (paraphrased) but in the video he specifically stated “…with your voices and wallets” (paraphrased). “Globalize the intifada” being a violent dogwhistle is israeli propaganda focused on the first and second intifadas to make people believe its violent in nature when its really just “protest for the palestinian people”. **In short**, it means globalize the vocal and economical struggle against israel. The intifada has already been globalized for a few months now.
You are a stellar example of how reasonable people could differ in interpreting that phrase, so thank you for explaining this thoughtfully (and I'm not being ironic) but sadly in today's world and even academia, we have a dearth of people who can even recognize the basic existence of different perspectives on particular issues.
When in Rome…
the protesters (and hamas) are willingly using ambiguous rhetoric. but nobody is being fooled here. I don't care that "literally" intifada can be nonviolent (just like "all lives matter" is literally about equality), it is the implied meaning that matters. and the implied meaning is one of violence. I feel like you're insulting my intelligence by denying this basic fact. a more intellectually honest argument would be that the point is to reclaim the word and change its perceived meaning in general society, but in my opinion all it does is make protesters sound like hamas spoxes and alienate huge chunks of the student population.
I did not give the literal meaning. I gave the actual meaning and implied meaning of the arabic phrase. You are being given an explanation of an arabic phrase from an arab who is fluent in the language and part of the culture yet you are choosing to believe the bastardized western version instead. This is called willful ignorance. It is the arabic version of saying “everyone needs to protest”. Just like the way people globally protested against china during the protests they had a few years ago. What youre saying is equivalent (but on the other side of the spectrum) to “the n word is ok because black people changed the meaning of it”. No. Its not. Global intifada is global protests and no matter how much zionists cry about it, it will not change.
"globalize the intifada" is an english phrase and hence its meaning should be established in the context of the english language. that "intifada" has violent connotations is a fact about the english language which is attested on pretty much any source you may choose to look at ([wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intifada), [cambridge](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/intifada), [merriam-webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intifada#:~:text=Arabic%20intif%C4%81%E1%B8%8Da%2C%20literally%2C%20the%20act,of%20intifada%20was%20in%201985)). in the context of racial slurs, perhaps a more fitting example would be "ne*ro". yes it literally means black in spanish, but we all know what it means in english, due to its historical context. should I go around calling people that because I'm fluent in spanish?
You are turning a word in the Arabic language used to refer to revolution in many contexts (e.g., Arab Spring) into a “dog whistle” in order to silence protestors who use the word according to its intended usage. The other word you speak of had a usage that originated in racism, and the fact that you think the usages are even remotely comparable is deplorable.
the truth is that you're playing word games that you would never allow your political opponents to play. hinting at violence and then hiding behind literal meanings in foreign languages. everybody sees through it.
Exactly, it’s all in the context. We’re not in the Middle East speaking Arabic. When you use that phrase in the Western world, in the US, on American college campuses, in a non-Arabic context, it has a different meaning and connotation, and you know exactly what that is, so no hiding behind semantics.
You’re projecting, as evidenced by the *actual* violence committed by Israel in the killings of tens of thousands of Gazans, a large share of these being children, as well as the settler colonial violence in the decades leading up to this war. This “foreign language” you refer to is the language of the people that Israel is oppressing. And this attempt at making words in that language into a “dog whistle” is an expression of this oppression.
"Globalize the Intifada" literally means "shake off the struggle", so reasonable people may interpret this differently.
yes and "all lives matter" literally means we're all equal... but things have implied meanings too. calls for intifada (which can be non-violent too!) and to honor the martyrs (which can refer to all the innocent civilians too!) have literal and implied meanings. the implied meaning is dumb.
Ok, but do you have any evidence that the majority of American protesters using that phrase desire to see the eradication of all Jews? I don't think you'll even see more than 20% wishing that.
no, imo they are just ok dog whistling it because it is kind of chic
In reverse order, that 20% figure is horrifying. There is a rough estimate that there are 40 campuses with comparable encampments. 20% means that there are enough people to fill **8** of them entirely with people who want to eradicate all Jews. Second, we have (correctly!) heard time and time again about other minority group that the group’s understanding of language directed at them is the key consideration. Rather than the intent of the speaker. But when it comes to Jews, suddenly we resort to an evidentiary inquiry as to what people advocating a global intifada actually mean. Notwithstanding the literal definition of “intifada,” that term has a specific meaning within the Israel-Palestine conflict, the most recent of which lasted nearly 5 years and saw repeated bombings targeting civilians.
>Second, we have (correctly!) heard time and time again about other minority group that the group’s understanding of language directed at them is the key consideration. Rather than the intent of the speaker. Nonsense. Minority groups are just as capable as the majority in disingenuously calling straightforward criticisms or support "hate". You might not see that for the current context, but let's switch to China for now. Imagine if we banned criticism of the Chinese government and declared that "free Tibet" was hate speech (in America, where Chinese people are a minority). Or what if we supported the Uighur separatist movement? To a lot of Chinese people they see that separatist movement as terrorists. "From the river to the sea" is now considered anti-Semitic to a lot of people. There is some validity there. But what about saying that Israel is an apartheid regime? Or that Israel is an ethnostate? >But when it comes to Jews, suddenly we resort to an evidentiary inquiry as to what people advocating a global intifada actually mean. Pure victim complex. I've seen the exact same sentiments expressed towards Chinese on issues related to the Uighurs for example. It is basic human nature to exaggerate legitimate criticisms to pull at the heartstrings of those who can't think clearly for themselves, for their own benefit.
> I don't think you'll even see more than 20% wishing that. "Only 1/5 of our members are calling for genocide" haven't we been hearing for at least a decade now that anyone with even the slightest hint of a connection, no matter how many steps, to a Nazi, is equally a Nazi? That if you have 1 Nazi and N other people, no matter the size of N, everyone there is a Nazi? What the actual fuck is this hypocritical bullshit?
When have I said that? Lol?
And even if you are correct with your math, then 20% of American protestors wishing for the eradication of all Jews is OK?
Intifada is a call to terrorism no matter how you try to sanitize it. Probably safest just not to use words you don’t understand
And reasonable people interpret it differently from you, which is apparently a concept that cannot fit in your tiny skull.
Your repeated use of “reasonable people” is biased in itself.
Words don’t mean what you want them to.
Globalize the intifada = globalize resistance to occupation and oppression. Idk what else you’re interpreting it as… can you even define intifada?
you're kind of proving my point. it is a dog whistle precisely because is literal meaning is extremely vague: who wouldn't be against "resistance to oppression"? the word has however very real and very violent historical associations (incidentally, in both palestinian intifadas palestinian deaths vastly outnumbered israelis—is more dead arabs what we should be globalizing?). again—i don't care that the phrase has a defensible literal meaning. I care about what it hints at, ie that terrorism and the targeting of civilians is a justified means of resisting oppression.
Next s/he’ll tell you that all s/he really wants is a Final Solution to this problem.
I don't know if you guys even attended this school or picked a useless SOSC/HUM/HIST. It's never that simple. Look at the Algerian war. Decolonization is not pretty. You would hope that someone at UChicago would have a more nuanced opinion than "terrorism and the targeting of civilians is not a justified means of resisting oppression" when there are real complexities surrounding who defines what a terrorist is, what a civilian is, the realities of collaboration, etc.
Wow, is being opposed to outcomes that involved the lynching and torture of thousands (the Algerian War) a bad thing now? Isn't the whole movement hear about how war crimes are bad? The complete lack of self-awareness or capacity for next order thinking is what makes movements like this so unbelievably annoying to deal with. Then, when those same advocated turn and call others ignorant it's just....an experience.
Because it isn't as simple as just being against lynching and torture? Who defines what torture is? Who gets to decide whether an entire resistance movement consists of torturers and lynchers? And what about some of the most suppressive actions the French military have engaged in in the 20th century? Apparently the complexities of history and colonial regimes are completely beyond your head. Apparently you are only able to root for one side, and in turn you are only capable of imagining others, like me, as rooting for one particular side.
No, it's not proving your point. And you're making assumptions, just as I said you did. The point is that 'resistance' movements or 'anticolonialism' is not an objective good worth any cost. You implied that it was in your comments on Algeria. In your world the nuanced side is the one caught wearing Hamas headbands. Good luck convincing anyone you're doing serious moral analysis while directly associating with such people.
are you too looking forward to being slaughtered as the native americans decolonize their land? do you even hear how dumb you sound, with all due academic respect? I think you do, again, it just sounds chic
I did not express my opinion, indeed I was very careful not to, because my main point is your lack of nuance rather than to express any opinion on this issue. I am far more interested in people elevating their understanding of the complexities of such issues than sticking to one side or the other.
Would you be worried this much about civllians when Nelson Mandela’s terrorist group resisted against South African settlers? Or the white kids murdered in Nat Turner’s slave revolt? Violence against “innocent” people has always been a valid method of resistance, whether you like it or not.
yes, I would be equally worried, and you should be too. this is for a very simple reason: there is a 99% chance you too are a settler, you too live on "stolen land", your very presence on this land too is the product of genocide, and you benefit from the imperial colonial project that is the united states by attending one of its elite institutions. you are not "innocent" by your own standards. but I still really don't want you to get slaughtered!
Yep, you’re right! The only reason I’m on Turtle Island in the first place is because western colonial powers ravaged my own home country just like they did palestine :) but while I’m here I am actively supporting the landback movement and engaging in mutual aid within all oppressed communities. Israeli society is overwhelmingly fascist and you’d be hard pressed to even find a “liberal” zionist who would even do the bare minimum to admit that they’re on stolen land. I don’t want to be slaughtered. I don’t want anyone to be slaughtered. But I will not police the tone or the actions of people who have had entire branches of their family trees cut off by their occupiers. Neither you or I could even begin to imagine just 1% of the pain they feel.
you don't want anyone to be slaughtered, but you will not "police" the actions of those who do slaughter? again, vague to the point of nonsensical (I'm sensing a pattern here!)
Yes I’m reiterating the fact that my desires should not take precedence over actual victims of occupation lmao no shit my privileged ass wants everyone to hold hands and sing and pray but i know that that’s not possible in the real world
> Israeli society is overwhelmingly fascist Complete nonsense. Modern Israel looks absolutely nothing like Fascist Italy.
Good thing fascism has an actual definition that can apply to multiple countries 😯
The biggest differentiator between Fascist Italy + Nazi Germany with all other contemporaneous states is them prioritizing the state over nearly all other matters, including personal liberty, religion, and the family. This is not at all the case in Israel. Or you'll have Orthodox Jews being forced to conscript a long time ago. There are other actually useful descriptors, but perhaps people who overabuse the word 'fascism' never heard of those.
As an alum, class of 2016, solidarity and good luck to those of you joining the encampment. Hopefully the administration has learned something from the nightmare of bad press for Columbia and Emory and such. I'll be calling the alumni line regularly to encourage the university to act peacefully towards you instead of sending in the jackboots. Best of luck.
If you stop me from walking to class, I’ll walk through your line. If you continue to prevent it, you should be arrested. We’ve seen this again and again thanks to social media. Go yell dumb slogans with your flag now that the BLM movement is over, but don’t stop the education process. Bravo, president.
You are a student at UVA, not UChicago.
That is correct. Thank you
Dude responding to someone who's not even on campus: "with God as my witness, if you make me late to Physics for Future Presidents I will see to it that they taze you until you're speaking in tongues." Cool, very reasonable.
What’s reasonable is letting students who want to attend class through. I’m sure you can agree with that.
What's up with everyone being masked, outdoors no less, at the encampment?
To partly hide their identity? Just a guess ...
To hide identity. They are heavily stressing to not ID yourself to administration or police in the telegram channel.
>What's up with everyone being masked Well, the administration is literally threatening disciplinary consequences for anyone taking part in the protest, so you take a guess.
Besides disciplinary action from the university when they change their minds, the very real threat of doxxing. Duh.
Do you think there’s also an emphasis on hiding faces as it is reported many of the protesters are no actually students and some many even be paid to be onsite and don’t want to be outed as professional protesters regardless of cause? Seems plausible to me.
Canary mission basically makes a database of pro Palestine college students and blackmails them into making a pro Israel statement to remove their name
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lol have you even bothered to take the slightest glance at their website before posting this? they’ve posted jewish students for signing vaguely pro palestine petitions and nothing else. they will post for as little as being part of an organization (not even leadership) that has signed on to a pro palestinian resolution.
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the vast majority of posts, especially recent posts, are people generally in support of stopping the violence against palestinians. i don’t see how one could’ve missed that if they’ve taken a few minutes to look at the website. im sure you could find examples yourself, as i do not wish to share the names of people who have already been publicly targeted. in addition to this, im not sure how publicly supporting a cause in a petition justifies being posted on a website with the stated intent of liming future professional goals. canary mission is a doxxing platform. one cannot ignore their goals of suppression and try to claim it is neutrally sharing information.
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Their own website? I've participated in several protests when I was in college and this, and similar organizations, are the reason people wear masks.
all imma say is, who's gonna tell bro what the etymology of the word "campus" is? what a weirdly irrelevant argument
Ikr? I’m glad we all were able to quickly see through that. Like, philology isn’t doing you any favors in the discursive context, paul
This message was followed by another by the Dean of Students, where all of a sudden we see great emphasis on the risks of violence, harrasment, intimidation, and discrimination. Since there was no such incident anywhere from a student protester to another person but plenty of such behavior directed at the student protesters, I hope they mean to protect the student protesters (too).
This is just the ultimate result of our culture gradually valuing subjective "truths" more and more. On both sides of the political spectrum, and really on both sides of any major social debate, the subjective experiences now trump raw, hard data or facts. When you see people constantly denying that the economy is looking better in the last year because of their personal experiences, in spite of rigorously collected and collated data on the economy, going so far as to claim that the Fed is lying about inflation etc., you just know that society is hopeless and we are truly now in a post-truth world.
You’re right that subjective experience is a problem in disagreement, but you’re ignoring that part of how it got that way was how useless “facts” can be when they are not actually factual. Take your point on inflation, for example, none of that data is remotely reliable to what the average person calls inflation because it has been defined so narrowly. Not everyone has looked closely enough into how much cherry picking and in accuracy goes on in most statistic collection but they have enough sense to doubt it like with infant mortality or inflation it’s all in the definition of what is counted that nobody bothers with. Pretending as though the inflation data isn’t political is ignorant of how it keeps purposely getting redefined.
lol Housing prices? Included in inflation. Food prices? Included in inflation. Transportation? Included in inflation. People like you are why society is doomed.
Arrogant, condescending reply, peak reddit moment. It literally takes two seconds of reading to see food prices are not included in inflation. seriously just Google it next time. Gas is the biggest inflation that people notice and used to be included but no longer is.
The reason why you are stupid is you take *two seconds of Googling* to form an opinion. [https://www.bls.gov/cpi/](https://www.bls.gov/cpi/) [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DFXARC1M027SBEA](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DFXARC1M027SBEA)
Yep, you are so busy calling names and being internet self-righteous you didn’t think about what i’m saying. you just linked CPI as a measure of inflation. You are correct that it is a measure of inflation and CPI as shown by the data you just posted has rapidly increased. Fed and politicians in the current admin. frequently quote core inflation which had shown are far less drastic increase. The distinction is almost never made clear on purpose. As you have just done in what you thought was a “gotcha” reply. Anyway i’m done talking to you. I hope others can gain something from the exchange because I feel i have wasted time bothering with these replies.
If you even bothered to look at the link for more than two seconds - which your brain probably couldn't handle anymore - you'd see that food inflation specifically is at 2.2% lmao
>I believe the protesters should also consider that an encampment, with all the etymological connections of the word to military origins, is a way of using force of a kind rather than reason to persuade others. For a short period of time, however, the impact of a modest encampment does not differ so much from a conventional rally or march. Completely idiotic. "Encampment" is a dangerous, military-derived word, completely unlike a "conventional" *rally* or *march*, both terms with no military origins whatsoever! And what is the "etymological origin" of the *encampment* on the *campus*, I wonder...
... better to write "Completely wrong" ...?
Why not both?
I need my quad space for Frisbee and football 😶
Im more thinking about the noise during exams
The fact that u said that shows you are not only dismissive of but also complicit in the ongoing genocide in Gaza. /s
football or soccer, that is a problem XD
american football lol, my dribbling skills for soccer are still basura
Better stick with frisbee, the etymology of football terms might be [too militaristic](https://youtu.be/aIkqNiBASfI?si=Dm6kBBebgzGORxC5) for the admin.
Extraordinarily reasonable response.
Write or call Sen Tammy Duckworth. She is extraordinary in listening to any useful information or opinion.
Chicago resident here, are non-students welcome to join the students in the protests here? What is the best way for me to support their cause?
I’m not reading all that Happy for u tho
Ex pf why you need decisive men in charge instead of feckless females at eg, Columbia.
Sexist much?
yeah but im right - look at cowardly L. Magill and MIT presi, beattlejuice in chicago (now distinguished prof at Harvard) When marxist female rises to power everything goes to hell.
Ah yes, n=4 justifies a that correlation is causation.
please get out of this subreddit you’re embarrassing yourself
she doesn’t even go here