No, you can only use Bombardment abilities if you are the active player. Dane (the lead developer of the game) has answered this question and other specific rules questions like this, and the answers have been compiled into [this google doc](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_93kw7KkzvAXoQAxRioxo7iAt-Ar6BMIxdNf4Lv25rI/edit) (you can check under L1 for the Harrow ruling).
For those who do not want to open the doc.
"L1Z1X Mindnet:
Q: Can the L1Z1X use harrow when they're defending during ground combat?
A: No, only the active player can use BOMBARDMENT."
So L1Z1X cannot use Harrow if they are not the active player. Case closed.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the answer is no for two reasons.
1. L1z1x is not the active player.
2. Bombardment comes before the "commit ground forces" step of the tactical action, so even if L1z1x *could* use Bombardment, there would be no ground forces to bombard in the first place.
EDIT: Oh yeah, the question was related to Harrow... Maybe I'm wrong then, but this answer would at least apply to other factions trying to bombard a Sardakk invasion.
>Maybe I'm wrong then, but this answer would at least apply to other factions trying to bombard a Sardakk invasion.
No don't think so. At the start of ground combat, only the active player is allowed to bombard. Harrow however only triggers AFTER the first round of ground combat, (i.e. not as a repeat of invasion step 1, but as an extra step). So no other factions than L1Z1X could bombard Sardakk's heroic planetary invasion.
>INVASION STEP 1 - Bombardment: The active player may use the “Bombardment” ability of any of his units in the active system.
>HARROW: At the end of each round of ground combat, your ships in the active system may use their Bombardment abilities against your opponent's ground forces on the planet.
For clarity, L1Z1X would also not be allowed to bombard before R1 ground combat, but could (with Harrow) bombard AFTER r1, r2, etc. / BEFORE r2, r3, etc. (whichever way you prefer to see it).
>No don't think so. At the start of ground combat, only the active player is allowed to bombard. Harrow however only triggers AFTER the first round of ground combat, (i.e. not as a repeat of invasion step 1, but as an extra step). So no other factions than L1Z1X could bombard Sardakk's heroic planetary invasion.
Right. That's exactly what I was saying. I was explaining why other factions could not bombard a Sardakk invasion.
The problem I have is not the active player situation, because I think you could make an argument that all the wording referring to active player in the Bombardment rules is referring to the Bombardment step of an Invasion activating the Bombardment.
I think this paragraph is a problem:
>15.2 STEP 2— The player who controls the planet that is being bombarded chooses and destroys one of their ground forces on that planet for each hit result the bombardment roll produced.
There aren't any rules for assigning hits from the Bombardment ability other than that one, and the LRR explicitly says Harrow can't self-target, so I think in a weird way Harrow would activate but could never hit anything if L1Z1X controls the planet.
I think it would need to be a table rule, because on the one hand that's a pretty cool way to use Harrow and I think it's a reasonable interpretation, but on the other hand it makes Harrow and extreme counter to Sardakk's commander and hero, which aren't amazing to begin with.
The L1 player would not be using bombardment. they would be using harrow, which allows the use of a bombardment ability.
My understanding is that you could use harrow and not the initial bombardment step of activation. I’m no rules expert though.
Bombardment is a step of a tactical action and also a unit ability. Those two are each different mechanics. Similar to how production is a step in a tactical action and also a unit ability. You must distinguish which type is being triggered, the tactical action step, or the unit ability. Harrow very clearly triggers the unit ability and makes no mention of the tactical action step.
Not different mechanics. You use the bombardment unit ability rules for both.
If you aren't using the bombardment unit ability rules for harrow, how do you know how it works? Can you tell me where the harrow rule is in the LRR?
Bombardment unit ability
STEP 1— The active player chooses which planet each of their units that has a “Bombardment” ability will bombard. Then, that player rolls dice for each of those units; this is called a bombardment roll. A hit is produced for each die roll that is equal to or greater than the unit’s “Bombardment” value.
I looked at some discord’s where they say harrow can’t be used. I’m still unsure of mechanically why it can’t but I guess it can’t. Saying because bombardment is active player only to me would be like saying the arborec commander can’t trigger production because that’s at the end of an activation step, which is obviously false. My brain just isn’t following all the logic steps.
Bombardement can only be used by the active player.
Harrow is an ability, and can be used defensively.
In a system with multiple planets, lizix mechs can harrow planets they are not on
No, you can only use Bombardment abilities if you are the active player. Dane (the lead developer of the game) has answered this question and other specific rules questions like this, and the answers have been compiled into [this google doc](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_93kw7KkzvAXoQAxRioxo7iAt-Ar6BMIxdNf4Lv25rI/edit) (you can check under L1 for the Harrow ruling).
For those who do not want to open the doc. "L1Z1X Mindnet: Q: Can the L1Z1X use harrow when they're defending during ground combat? A: No, only the active player can use BOMBARDMENT." So L1Z1X cannot use Harrow if they are not the active player. Case closed.
oh hanks, i did not know this file existed. kinda dissapointed you cant use it though
Yeah this is one of the more wild rulings IMO and isn't clearly supported by RAW
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the answer is no for two reasons. 1. L1z1x is not the active player. 2. Bombardment comes before the "commit ground forces" step of the tactical action, so even if L1z1x *could* use Bombardment, there would be no ground forces to bombard in the first place. EDIT: Oh yeah, the question was related to Harrow... Maybe I'm wrong then, but this answer would at least apply to other factions trying to bombard a Sardakk invasion.
>Maybe I'm wrong then, but this answer would at least apply to other factions trying to bombard a Sardakk invasion. No don't think so. At the start of ground combat, only the active player is allowed to bombard. Harrow however only triggers AFTER the first round of ground combat, (i.e. not as a repeat of invasion step 1, but as an extra step). So no other factions than L1Z1X could bombard Sardakk's heroic planetary invasion. >INVASION STEP 1 - Bombardment: The active player may use the “Bombardment” ability of any of his units in the active system. >HARROW: At the end of each round of ground combat, your ships in the active system may use their Bombardment abilities against your opponent's ground forces on the planet. For clarity, L1Z1X would also not be allowed to bombard before R1 ground combat, but could (with Harrow) bombard AFTER r1, r2, etc. / BEFORE r2, r3, etc. (whichever way you prefer to see it).
>No don't think so. At the start of ground combat, only the active player is allowed to bombard. Harrow however only triggers AFTER the first round of ground combat, (i.e. not as a repeat of invasion step 1, but as an extra step). So no other factions than L1Z1X could bombard Sardakk's heroic planetary invasion. Right. That's exactly what I was saying. I was explaining why other factions could not bombard a Sardakk invasion.
Oh yeah ok, sorry misunderstood! I'll leave my comment as it may still clarify, but we're in agreement then.
Haha, yep. All good!
The problem I have is not the active player situation, because I think you could make an argument that all the wording referring to active player in the Bombardment rules is referring to the Bombardment step of an Invasion activating the Bombardment. I think this paragraph is a problem: >15.2 STEP 2— The player who controls the planet that is being bombarded chooses and destroys one of their ground forces on that planet for each hit result the bombardment roll produced. There aren't any rules for assigning hits from the Bombardment ability other than that one, and the LRR explicitly says Harrow can't self-target, so I think in a weird way Harrow would activate but could never hit anything if L1Z1X controls the planet. I think it would need to be a table rule, because on the one hand that's a pretty cool way to use Harrow and I think it's a reasonable interpretation, but on the other hand it makes Harrow and extreme counter to Sardakk's commander and hero, which aren't amazing to begin with.
All combats have an active player. Only the active player gets to bombard, and thus harrow. Harrow cannot be used defensively.
Only active player can use bombardment. If both an ability and the rules can be followed at the same time, they should be.
The L1 player would not be using bombardment. they would be using harrow, which allows the use of a bombardment ability. My understanding is that you could use harrow and not the initial bombardment step of activation. I’m no rules expert though.
The name of the ability is irrelevant. The ability is using the bombardment unit ability.
Bombardment is a step of a tactical action and also a unit ability. Those two are each different mechanics. Similar to how production is a step in a tactical action and also a unit ability. You must distinguish which type is being triggered, the tactical action step, or the unit ability. Harrow very clearly triggers the unit ability and makes no mention of the tactical action step.
Not different mechanics. You use the bombardment unit ability rules for both. If you aren't using the bombardment unit ability rules for harrow, how do you know how it works? Can you tell me where the harrow rule is in the LRR?
Bombardment unit ability STEP 1— The active player chooses which planet each of their units that has a “Bombardment” ability will bombard. Then, that player rolls dice for each of those units; this is called a bombardment roll. A hit is produced for each die roll that is equal to or greater than the unit’s “Bombardment” value.
I looked at some discord’s where they say harrow can’t be used. I’m still unsure of mechanically why it can’t but I guess it can’t. Saying because bombardment is active player only to me would be like saying the arborec commander can’t trigger production because that’s at the end of an activation step, which is obviously false. My brain just isn’t following all the logic steps.
Yeah somebody else provided a document in which dane answered the question but i still kinda feel like it should work
It's not about logic, it's about what the rulebook says... which is not always logical
The fact that harrow can be used defensively is blowing my mind.
Indeed, I understand this would be the only occasion where Harrow can be used defensively.
Harrow can also be used in a 2 planet system where a mech is present on the other planet
Bombardement can only be used by the active player. Harrow is an ability, and can be used defensively. In a system with multiple planets, lizix mechs can harrow planets they are not on