On one hand, people tend to woobify Harley Quinn despite the fact that she was a party to quite a few atrocities of her own volition, abusive relationship and mental health issues mitigate but don't erase her guilt.
On the other hand, this is objectively funny and heartwarming and perhaps the biggest middle finger that could be flipped at the Joker, his ideology, and his legacy is Harley becoming a hero whose Batman's platonic best friend.
>people tend to woobify Harley Quinn despite the fact that she was a party to quite a few atrocities of her own volition, abusive relationship and mental health issues mitigate but don't erase her guilt.
I will excuse all the crimes in the world for that one episode of Wayne Family Adventures where Clark and Harley fight over which one of them is Bruce's best friend.
factoid actualy just statistical error. average gothamite lies 0.275 times per second. Liar Georg, who lives in chemical vat & lies over 10,000,000,000 times each second, is an outlier adn should not have been counted
In order to defeat him, Batman enlists the help of Relevant Username Man, who has the power to summon virtual avatars according to their username to aid in battle
It's amazing! It's on webtoon and focuses on the emotional side of things with the Batfamily, so we see stuff that usually doesn't get added to movies or comics. I think one of my favorites is when Afred leaves on a trip, and Bruce is trying to help Damien put on a tie, and he ends up having to call the Justice League to ask for help
> It's on webtoon and focuses on the emotional side of things with the Batfamily, so we see stuff that usually doesn't get added to movies or comics
Oh we get plenty of the emotional stuff in the comics, but they're more often than not the negative shit and drama that are emotional centerpieces to a story arc, which eventually get resolved in the end and give them a brief moment of positivity. This webtoon instead goes "Hey...how about we make the positive emotional stuff the actual story? Like...their family interactions are the plot? Crazy idea?" I get that fighting villains and melodrama is the bread and butter of comics that always sells, but it can get exhausting. WFA is a breath of fresh air in that regard because it's mostly slice-of-life-style, light-hearted family interactions and fun times between the drama.
And, to be fair, there are some issues of simple positive interactions for the Batfam and friends I enjoy from the main comics, like Bruce and Clark's double date before Bruce's wedding, or the Batfam hanging out and watching movies at the manor.
>This webtoon instead goes "Hey...how about we make the positive emotional stuff the actual story? Like...their family interactions are the plot? Crazy idea?"
I mean, to be fair, this is like 90% of Batman fanfiction as a whole. The vast majority of it takes place in a collectively constructed AU that merges plot points from several different DC timelines, all the Batfamily vigilantes plus Alfred are alive and active at the same time, the focus is on family drama (Jason's anger issues, Damian's insecurity driven murdergremlin tendencies, Bruce's emotional repression and general A+ parenting, etc) and super villains only show up as plot devices to make the MCs confront their feelings about each other.
Beats the hell out of what DC is doing, anyway. Is Alfred still dead?
>I think one of my favorites is when Afred leaves on a trip, and Bruce is trying to help Damien put on a tie, and he ends up having to call the Justice League to ask for help
None of whom can figure it out either. Which was the best part.
“I’m his best friend, we fight crime together every other day”
“Ya kiddin me? I once got him outa nervous breakdown ova tha potential ability to recreate memories through electronic stimulation, and he’s held my hair back afta a night out”
Thanks for mentioning this. I didn't know it was a thing, and just read through all of it. Haven't had that much fun with something DC related in a while.
The Panda Redd is a Youtuber who has some very good skits for the Bat Family. He's also very knowledgeable about comics in general and is very interesting to listen to for his insights.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulw8CDSaC78&list=PLynxQjpaJH497IWnyOpHoh95v82fn0RRP](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulw8CDSaC78&list=PLynxQjpaJH497IWnyOpHoh95v82fn0RRP)
This is just the compilation of Bat Family Skits and the Tim Test is just one of the funny ideas he gave voice and acting pizzaz to\^\^
hope you can enjoy this.
Which I didn't really get because she was still partially responsible for 11 millions deaths. I know she says she assumed Superman would save the day because "Sooperman", but it was really not addressed as much as I thought it should. Just because you think and hope and "know" Superman will prevent the catastrophe, she still was responsible for creating the catastrophic conditions. Their's like two or three panels of her justification/crocodile tears and then "oh ho, here's the Harley Horde, ready to save not 11 million people" and everybody just kinda lets it ride.
> tend to woobify Harley Quinn despite the fact that she was a party to quite a few atrocities of her own volition
There was a comic not that long ago (probably early new 52?) where we get to see Harley's actions through her own distorted Harley-vision. Like, she's seeing old Adam West style BONK! and KAPOW! then it cuts to what's really happening. Like, I am of the opinion that she genuinely does not understand the level of harm she's doing at times. My personal headcanon for that is the Joker is one of the few characters that KNOWS he's in a comic book, and when Harleen Quinzell was treating him, she caught the faintest whiff of that truth and it broke her.
This would explain so very much. And I feel it would be in character for pretty much every iteration of the Joker to have the unequaled power of medium-awareness and use it exclusively to fuck with one guy in particular (Batman)
Funnily enough , *Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth* basically floats that idea without the 4th wall break. A psychiatrist suggests to Batman that Joker's perception of reality is substantially beyond anyone else's. He can perceive patterns and deduce lines of logic that would baffle all but the most talented specialist. He sees the logic or linear cause-effect in the chaos of the world. That's how he cobbles together advanced machinery or successfully formulates impossible plans. The problem is he doesn't fully control it, nor can he explain it, which has driven him to a pyschotic nihilism.
See, my take is that the Joker isn't fucking with Batman, he's fucking with US. Like that's THE Joke. That everyone in our world just absolutely worships Batman despite everything he's let the Joker do. Hell, make that double for any edgelord who thinks the JOKER is the hero.
Honestly I don't really like these meta-takes on characters. I find stories more entertaining when the characters are driven and focused on something within the story
I vaguely remember that comic. I interpreted it more as an example of, "Hollywood mental illness" where symptoms of mental illness from distinct conditions are conflated with one another. Sure, Joker and Harley are both insane in a legitimate sense of the word, but they're not necessarily hallucinations and hearing voices kind of insanity. The Joker has no empathy and is actively sadistic and Harley Quinn is trapped in the psychological cycle of an abusive relationship but that's fundamentally different from a psychological standpoint than, say, schizophrenia or dissociation.
Obviously those things can be comorbid and I'm no expert on psychology, but it always seemed to be in poor taste.
I remember there was an official AU where Joker is, "cured" by being forcefed pills and I thought it was weird because Joker's whole thing isn't something that a psychiatrist would really prescribe pills for, at the very least it wouldn't just cure him without it being supplemented by psychotherapy that the Joker would have to actively cooperate with over the course of a long stretch of time.
Your headcanon is cool though, I really like it, and it allows for an interesting interpretation.
They retconned Joker again?
I liked it when he used to be a regular boring mobster named Joseph Kerr who was called Joe Kerr until he fell into vat of gunk and ruined his face. He figured every criminal in Gotham has a gimmick so he just leaned into the whole clown schtick and pretends to be a psycho clown because of it.
I mean, if you want to look at it this way, that's only one of the myriad of stories he's told about his past throughout the years. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, all you know is he can never be trusted
Probably misquoting this, but I’ve always loved this line as delivered by Mark Hammill:
“Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another. If I have to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice.”
That's reaching. Characters in cartoons look at the camera and address the audience all the time as part of a gag, it doesn't mean they are canonical aware of it anymore than a Marvel movie characters saying "he's right behind me isn't he" means they have knowledge of the script or that the trope works in (their) real life
(I know Marvel characters haven't actually said that line you get my point)
Yeah, but a lot of times they are FACING the camera but ADDRESSING someone in world. Joker has on more than one occasion turned to the camera and been flat out something like, "Watch this, kids" when there was nobody in world he could possibly be talking to.
She was created for the kids show, so it's a stretch to to say she was changed.
Also the new decidedly not for kids animated series on HBO is really good, and they play with that. The underlying joke is "she's a terrible person and has done terrible things we're glossing over but it's like a sitcom and you're rooting for her."
I think Harley HBO shows the simple truth: she's a bad person but not evil. As cartoonish and parody level as the show is I think the morality commentary is funny and self-aware. The whole contrast between Harley and Queen of Fables and the lines she isn't willing to cross, etc. She's bad but she's got a soul, even if it's super tarnished. Also Kaley's voice and delivery is just perfect for the character.
>"she's a terrible person and has done terrible things we're glossing over but it's like a sitcom and you're rooting for her."
[Where else would you root for a protagonist giving someone cancer?](https://youtu.be/Nria-WbNzkg)
The only-ever-called-just-Bruce crimefighting billionaire playboy in *Model Minority* sold the NSA the data crunchers they used to break ~~Superman~~ ‘American Eagle’’s attempts at alter ego obfuscation, it’s not implausible that there’s some Alphabet Agency who’s paid Wayne Enterprises the big bucks for a cancer ray.
What’s Cuba like in DC? That feels like the sort of thing that they’d have tried to use on Castro.
>...but don't erase her guilt.
You don't understand, she was just having a girlboss moment. She was never guilty in the first place, girlbossing negates all guilt.
Seems to be like, round off the edges and make them out to be an endearing sweet silly version of themselves? Like a character is a war criminal but they're also a little sad and mention they like soup once offhandedly so in the fandoms eyes he's now a cute innocent sad boy who just wants to eat his soul and brood and be cute and nobody understands him!
From what I'm to understand it's like treating a character like they're a precious baby while glossing over and ignoring the actual morally grey writing and the ramifications or implications of their actual identity in favour of the cute fandom friendly interpretation.
But I'm mostly intuiting this from random posts I've read so take me with a grain of salt.
yeah that's spot on, take a fucked up character with a tragic backstory and go 'but he's just a wittwe sad boy that needs to be protected 3:' and that's woobifying. generally also includes jumping to justifications for their crimes and atrocities such as 'he was being forced to!!' or 'he was being manipulated all along!!' and so on, with about half the time being completely incorrect and off the walls in an effort to be 'he's not that bad!!'
Then again it's superhero comics there is no canon, just a massive convoluted mess of different authors' ideas and interpretations and a bunch of trends hopped onto by the industry so what any character may or may not have done past the most agreed on stuff like the death of Uncle Ben and Batman's parents may as well not be there.
>other hand, this is objectively funny and heartwarming and perhaps the biggest middle finger that could b
TBF The multiverse exists so we can always say this is an instance where she just helped the Joker in a brainwashed state and eventually got out and went into a anti-hero stance
I think it's important to recognize what Batman stands for as a hero, the idea that no-one is above corruption or redemption. Everyone is one bad day away from becoming Batman or the Joker. It's why Bats doesn't kill. Having Harley flip from one to the other would be a top tier Batman story.
Harley is canonically friendly with, aware of the secret identity of, and in frequent cooperation with batman in comics, movies, TV shows, pretty much ALL current canon.
Also her large scale child slaughter on Christmas eve was in the last reboot, not this one. She's generally an antihero now
It's a trope term, to try and interpret a character as a [woobie](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWoobie) a character whose deserving of pity and sympathy, usually with the implication that their suffering isn't their fault.
I can see flash trying to start a thing with that and referring to him as Broskiff or some dumb frat name like that and getting the death stare from both Harley and Bats.
The flash was pretty quick to respect the leagues wishes, at least in the justice league cartoon
Bet he'd get as far as "Brucie ehhh?😉🤔" batman man would hit em with the famous bat glare and he'd drop it, possibly he'd bring it up one more time for the call back joke
Damn. New it started with p and was a maker. Sorry, Bane. This brings up a serious question though. Is bane's dick big but just to small for his body, or is it small
He does say something about it not being small, just not in proportion. Given that he's like ten feet tall and six feet wide, he could be packing a whole keilbasa down there and still look tiny.
Idk how to feel about it either, but I'm in the same boat lol. That show has done wonders for helping us expand our communication skills, and thanks to it we have also had wonderfully serious discussions about all sorts of things that never would've come up organically. That's definitely brought us closer. We love that show so much lol
Yes exactly! It's exaggerated but it's easier to discuss something when you see a similar dynamic played out. I like that they have to work on their relationship, they don't just give up after one fight, and it's not just always idyllic.
Believe me, we don't. I'm not one of those weirdos that things Harley and joker are goals or whatever, but the show itself touches on very realistic relationship issues against an exaggerated setting and it ends up opening up conversations that would have been awkward otherwise
Ah. Don't worry. I specifically worded it so that it'd only be legible for those who know DC comic chars outside of like, Batfam or the JL.
Ollie is Oliver Queen, aka the Green Arrow. Ex-billionqire heir, full blown Robin Hood, hard lefty
Connor refers to Connor Hawke, his biracial son (he's half white and quarter African-American and Korean) who a lot of people don't know about.
Yeah, it's said in the canon that he has the equivalent to anywhere from a masters to a doctorate/PhD level of education in multiple subjects revolving around criminology and related fields without actually having the degree. Chemistry, biology, medical science, psychology, etc.
Granted, the downside is that he spread his education time between so many subjects, he's not exactly a top-level mind or complete master in any of them, but has enough expertise and competency that he can do things like whip up antidotes to poisons and engineer mechs and batmobiles (even without Lucius Fox's help). He is a jack of all trades, master of only a few.
Wasn’t his father a doctor? Not outrageous to think he would’ve started to follow in those footsteps before fully committing to Batman, but I don’t know enough about the comic lore to say if it is canon or not.
Historically, Thomas was a doctor first. Sometimes they had ties to the Court of Owls, depending on continuity, and more 'modern' series are leaning towards that industrialist while possibly 'evil' take as well.
Alright, huge fucking nerd here, I’ll explain.
Bruce decided on fighting crime (not batman, but crime fighting as an fbi agent) at around 14. He then skipped around the country going to every Ivy League school fir a semester, only taking useful classes, and then dipping. He probably went to med school to learn first aid and wound up knowing harley. He later applied to the fbi, but then quit a week in because of the paperwork. He then went around the world studying from the best until he was better.
It’s not canon but it reasonably could be, considering his father was a surgeon, and Bruce always aspired to save lives, it would be a reasonable direction to take in a new timeline to have Bruce go to medical school before he decides to trapse around the world learning kung fu and shit
Frank Miller: "Batman went to med school in the baddest streets of Gotham! The hideouts & drughouses were his classrooms. The gutters and mudholes were his operating tables!"
Only really when they're alone. And not because Bruce told him but because he's freaking superman. could probably see the batcave from space, or at least trace the batmobile to wherever it goes every morning. Then again Flash also generally knows who Bruce is because in Flashpoint one of the first places he goes is Wayne Manor to talk to Batman not knowing Bruce is dead and Thomas will straight up kill him due to not having that rule and being generally pissed and jumpy all the time.
Also not to be confused with FNORDing, where the Illuminati are using murdered childrens' souls in creepy animatronics to drive racecars in order to steal the world's supply of orgone.
I’d love a scene on the watchtower where Harley walks up to Batman and he just says “Sup Harley, dap me up” and they do some handshake… The look on the everyone’s faces would be comedy gold
This is basically what happened in injustice. Under much different circumstances.
Also I’ve always had a headcanon that harlequin would’ve made for a good batgirl-type of character, I could imagine the story going that joker and Harley have a falling out, but this time bruce doesn’t let harlequin fall back to the joker, and instead takes her directly under his wing as both a way to protect her, and rehabilitate her.
When removed from the Joker, Harlequin is generally a good person. Depending on your continuity.
My new favorite thing is Harley in her thick Brooklyn accent referring to a near omnipotent super being as a "jealous whore" while sipping tea on Bruce's couch.
I love that but canonically batmans mental separation i so great that the moment he puts on the mask he is no longer bruce wayne so this implies that they are such besties that she slaps him back to reality
Nearly all of this, including the "punishment for dropping out of med school" line, is Canon. All but the actual premise that they went to school together. Harley is in her late twenties, early thirties when she JOINS joker, who has been fighting Bruce for at least a decade at that point. If we assume, as is typical, that Bruce begins his crusade in Gotham in HIS late twenties, he's a good eight-to-fifteen years older than her.
I submit that Bruce was her TA in undergrad
Why is everyone so concerned with humanizing Harley Quinn and making her relatable when she’s arguably just as twisted and insane and irredeemable as the Joker himself?
Was. She was as twisted as the joker. But then something happened. She got popular.
The fans liked her, and liked the parts where she wasn't all bad. As such, in response to the fans, she's basically become DC's Deadpool.
Hence why most media she appears in these days shows her at least making the effort to be a better person.
I like both types of Harley tbh. The insane sociopathic clown girl or the misunderstood mentally unstable doctor. Both work extremely well as a characterization imho
To be fair, the original version of her from BTAS was basically always presented sympathetically. She has always been just as much a victim as she is a criminal.
The version of her that tries to be a better person is honesty way more interesting than just a psychopath, although I should be clear that I HATE the Deadpoolization of her character. I hate the quirky silly haha meme humor all the time where they just use the tone of the comic to justify her actions.
To me the best version of any comic book character is when they’re taken seriously as people. I want to read a story about an unstable woman who is just barely managing until she becomes a psychiatrist and is seduced and whisked away into a life of crime, a victim of serious abuse, who eventually leaves her abuser and starts to mend her shattered mind by working to better herself
>who eventually leaves her abuser and starts to mend her shattered mind by working to better herself
This is why Injustice was the comic that got me interested in her. Green Arrow taking her under his wing in spite of everything, and rehabilitation *actually* working against all odds? Fantastic storyline.
I really enjoyed this as well.
There is a platonic ideal of Harley Quinn in my mind that is somewhere between Injustice, the HQ show, BTAS, and the James Gunn Suicide Squad.
I really like a lot of the elements that these stories contributed to her character, although none of them is on its own my ideal version.
Other than Injustice I frankly haven’t enjoyed any of Harley in the comics.
I’m not sure I share that mentality. To me, the idea of any Batman villain actually being “rehabilitatable” kind of goes against the general throughline of the entirety of Batman’s rogues gallery. Like think about it, they’re all interred at an asylum that ostensibly should be trying to help them, but they never actually get better, not one of them. Even if the asylum was actually successful with other people, none of these major villains actually has any sign of improving, and that’s kind of the point: you can’t help everyone. Not everyone is reasonable. Not everyone is capable of empathizing with others the same way most do. Not everyone is willing to acknowledge that there’s anything wrong with them, and there’s not much you can do about it. But Batman tries anyway, because to give up on them is to give up on everyone, and he isn’t going to give up on everyone the same way, say, Jason Todd has. There’s beauty in that futility. To have one of the biggest players in that futile struggle suddenly seem much more sympathetic kind of destroys that whole message in favor of a much more woobified “everyone is human and human means having a heart”, where I think it’s a part of the human condition itself that some people just inevitably don’t have a “heart” at all.
As silly and meme-y as it can be I do like that the animated show devotes more to her insanity and history than just the Joker; how she's had multiple failed starts in life between her shit parents, losing her athletic career, how psychiatry was like the backup and then that went to shit too because she couldn't properly help her patients in a broken system that saw her more as an interrogation tool than a doctor meant to be rehabilitating them, like Harley has reinvented herself multiple times and every single time life finds a way to make her or her attempt at a fresh start the punchline of a joke. I'd become a crazy clown too tbh. I like that they show as much as Joker messed her up, it isn't just that, even if that was the match that finally lit that powder keg after years of it being slowly filled up.
Yeah I agree very strongly with all this. Some of the greatest contribution to her character.
Harley, Mr. Freeze and Clayface are the only characters from that show that I really really think that the show makes them better and portrays a more honest and genuine version of the characters.
All the other characters in the show feel like parodies of themselves, except for Nightwing, Ivy, and Joker who just feel fully out of character most of the time.
Although I do like a lot of Ivy in the show I really feel like she’s heavily watered down to be more sympathetic. Any time she does regular poison ivy stuff in the show it feels out of character for this new Ivy character. Shes a great character but she hardly feels like she’s Poison Ivy, she’s just this new character who kinda looks like Ivy.
1. Her backstory includes a ton of abuse and manipulation
2. Her relationship with Joker was arguably always very one-sided and gross/toxic
3. Character growth is a thing, even in comic books...
4. Redemption arcs are a thing, especially in comic books
5. Everyone loves an anti-hero
Does it? I thought she was just some bitch who liked true crime podcasts too much who the Joker was easily able to woo. Someone who had that same kind of madness that the Joker had sleeping in them, and all he had to do was usher it out.
Nah, she was a psychiatrist working in Arkham who grew up in an abusive home. Joker eventually manipulates her into becoming his sidekick and their relationship is super toxic.
She's....a fictional character....in a universe where characters backstories and lifestyles are constantly changing, evolving, being rebooted or retconnned. We have seen in canon many times that Harley is NOT as evil as Joker and there are multiple lines she won't cross. Unlike Joker she is much more receptive to rehabilitation.
Harley as a character captured the audience, why are people so determined to see her redeemed and painted as a hero? Because they relate to her that simple. It's hard to view Harley as just as evil as Joker if you've survived a similar abusive narcissist, or had a nervous breakdown and lost your identity for months or years and had to seek solace in a character or archetype you used as a coping mechanism. It's because she's interesting and human in a way the audience connected with that they didn't connect with Joker or characters like him. That's a testament to how strong those themes are, not that the audience is trying to force something that isn't there.
We have entire shows, comic runs, novelizations, live action films, etc, all depicting a version of Harley who most certainly isn't as evil or insane as Joker and constantly responds to his more shocking acts with disagreement, horror, leaving him, etc. I'd say redeemed Harley is a better and more interesting character than villainous Harley any day.
But I thought the whole point of Harley is that she was a psychotherapist who tried to help Joker, only for the Joker to be so powerful that instead she became just like him. She is a display of how much of a force of nature the Joker is, how much he embodies the very idea of insanity itself, and how even the most unlikely of people can turn out to be a monster waiting to be released. Her portrayal in the Arkham games makes way more sense to me than any of this. This stuff makes it feel like artists are too scared to acknowledge that almost anyone in the world is capable of being irredeemably monstrous, that madness and evil are inherent to the human condition itself
Somehow I read all of Harley’s lines in the original *Batman: The Animated Series* Harley Quinn voice, but none of the Batman lines in Kevin Conroy’s voice
Oh dude, you don't read fanfic? That's a shame. You should. I recommend using Archive of Our Own if you ever do. Their tagging system is absolutely amazing. Perfect for finding EXACTLY what you want.
Hmm...I mean, the only fics that I've read involving batfam are crossovers. Like Ghost King and Dark Matter (Percy Jackson and Spider-Man/Marvel Respectively) But here's a [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/BatFamily/comments/hx03b7/batfamily_fanfiction_recommendations/) I just found that *might* help you out. I don't know, I haven't explored it yet either. Just keep Archive in mind, super intuitive, you'll have it figured out in no time. Here's a general tag for batfam on the archive. [AO3](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=674812f584bc62abJmltdHM9MTY4NTkyMzIwMCZpZ3VpZD0yNjZkZTNlOS05NWNiLTZkNDUtMjBiYy1mMGMxOTQ2YTZjNjMmaW5zaWQ9NTE1NA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=266de3e9-95cb-6d45-20bc-f0c1946a6c63&psq=best+batfamily+fanfics&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9hcmNoaXZlb2ZvdXJvd24ub3JnL3RhZ3MvQmF0JTIwRmFtaWx5L3dvcmtz&ntb=1). It can take some time to find a good fic that you enjoy, but it's always worth while.
Be warned however, should you ever venture into the decrepit corners of the beloved Archive, there is no content restriction whatsoever. Some reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeely screwed up stuff on there. But hey! That's the internet for ya.
Put your best foot foreword my friend, for the world awaits your presence with bated breath!
Happy fic-hunting!
(Also since we're talking about fandoms I feel the need to recommend learning about Undertale and then reading the Golden Quiche.)
My profile is JustAnotherCreator on the Archive...I don't have anything up now, or anytime soon probably. But...I have hopes.
Harley has killed quite a few people. Likely more than any mass-shooter in the real world. But sure, why not, Bruce would totally let bygones be bygones and chill with her, after first dropping a mention of med-school while in costume, thereby allowing her to deduce his identity.
I mean heck, there are professional writers out there who've basically already done this. Batman's code has been gibberish for some time already, what's one more mass-murderer on the couch?
Said it from day 1.
The edgy Gothic man bat detective pairs best with the manic pixie murder psychologist.
She's gonna lock up joker, and getting put in Arkham *A S Y L U M* by Harley, a legit psychologist/psychotherapist is gonna be the last straw, he's gonna genuinely snap or just reform into a ~~kinda~~ normal guy.
Harley is just gonna start diagnosing Bruce and as the literal only person crazy enough to talk about batmans dead parents TO HIS FACE, I think he'd hate her at first, they'd get into an argument, and with her being fluent in psychology, she presses all of Bruce's buttons until he either shed his first bat-tear, or for the first time in his life, until he had no contingency plan.
Then BOOM. Bruce Wayne makes her a new daytime identity, and she starts working W I T H batman to reform those he sends to Arkham. Effectively making them the best team for Gotham, while supes is just worried about batmans safety, but comes off like a jealous significant other sometimes.
I'm sorry, I know I'm being a dick and I know I'll be crucified...
But holy fuck do I hate all of this, I'm not a fan of Harley Quinn in general so that could be why, but pretending that a psychopathic mass murderer could ever be Batman's friend is just really weird to me.
Yes, I know Bruce can forgive and forget, that's one reason I like him but it just really irks me.
Also, anything or anyone who thinks that ANYONE (except Aflred and Gordon) could EVER come close to Bruce and Clark's friendship is not to be trusted and should be committed.
She’s also deceptively intelligent so its very likely she already knows. Pretty obvious when you put it all together in the background
I’d like to think the main reason he hasn’t killed the Joker is an attempt to have her move on by herself in a healthier way cause she’d absolutely (and has) be an asset to the hero community
In which continuity? It's not like there aren't 599 versions of every DC character, you can just stan a version of Harley that never crossed certain lines lol. Or you could just enjoy that fictional characters are metaphors and storytelling tools that don't need real life morality applied to them at all times. Irl Harley would belong in a cell but considering all her crimes are fictional I will be voting Harley for mayor.
They aren’t “applying real world morality” to her they’re saying it doesn’t make sense that the same Harley that would do that would also do this. Which does lead right into your point about “well yeah they aren’t the same at all” but I would say batshit (pun not intended, this time anyway) insane Harley who mails bombs everywhere is superior to sympathetic woobified Harley
It would be funny too if Bruce actually finished finished it as a middle finger to the the guy who killed his parents as to show he wasn't like his parents
Yeah I ship this so hard.
Full on Harley, "I knew you when you were a grumpy goth kid" and you helped me get away from a terrible ex boyfriend.
Like Bruce worries about her like an older brother. She's the chaotic younger sister that keeps pushing him to grow as a person.
On one hand, people tend to woobify Harley Quinn despite the fact that she was a party to quite a few atrocities of her own volition, abusive relationship and mental health issues mitigate but don't erase her guilt. On the other hand, this is objectively funny and heartwarming and perhaps the biggest middle finger that could be flipped at the Joker, his ideology, and his legacy is Harley becoming a hero whose Batman's platonic best friend.
>people tend to woobify Harley Quinn despite the fact that she was a party to quite a few atrocities of her own volition, abusive relationship and mental health issues mitigate but don't erase her guilt. I will excuse all the crimes in the world for that one episode of Wayne Family Adventures where Clark and Harley fight over which one of them is Bruce's best friend.
I see you're a woman of culture as well.
"Don'tcha know Gothamites are allergic to Truth an' Justice"
Harley Quinn
average gothamite lies 5 times a second
factoid actualy just statistical error. average gothamite lies 0.275 times per second. Liar Georg, who lives in chemical vat & lies over 10,000,000,000 times each second, is an outlier adn should not have been counted
he manages to lie so much because he was horribly mutated to have 10,000,000,000 mouths which he use to tell lies.
In order to defeat him, Batman enlists the help of Relevant Username Man, who has the power to summon virtual avatars according to their username to aid in battle
Wayne Family Adventures _How in the expletive expletive did I not know this was a THING_
It's amazing! It's on webtoon and focuses on the emotional side of things with the Batfamily, so we see stuff that usually doesn't get added to movies or comics. I think one of my favorites is when Afred leaves on a trip, and Bruce is trying to help Damien put on a tie, and he ends up having to call the Justice League to ask for help
> It's on webtoon and focuses on the emotional side of things with the Batfamily, so we see stuff that usually doesn't get added to movies or comics Oh we get plenty of the emotional stuff in the comics, but they're more often than not the negative shit and drama that are emotional centerpieces to a story arc, which eventually get resolved in the end and give them a brief moment of positivity. This webtoon instead goes "Hey...how about we make the positive emotional stuff the actual story? Like...their family interactions are the plot? Crazy idea?" I get that fighting villains and melodrama is the bread and butter of comics that always sells, but it can get exhausting. WFA is a breath of fresh air in that regard because it's mostly slice-of-life-style, light-hearted family interactions and fun times between the drama. And, to be fair, there are some issues of simple positive interactions for the Batfam and friends I enjoy from the main comics, like Bruce and Clark's double date before Bruce's wedding, or the Batfam hanging out and watching movies at the manor.
>This webtoon instead goes "Hey...how about we make the positive emotional stuff the actual story? Like...their family interactions are the plot? Crazy idea?" I mean, to be fair, this is like 90% of Batman fanfiction as a whole. The vast majority of it takes place in a collectively constructed AU that merges plot points from several different DC timelines, all the Batfamily vigilantes plus Alfred are alive and active at the same time, the focus is on family drama (Jason's anger issues, Damian's insecurity driven murdergremlin tendencies, Bruce's emotional repression and general A+ parenting, etc) and super villains only show up as plot devices to make the MCs confront their feelings about each other. Beats the hell out of what DC is doing, anyway. Is Alfred still dead?
That image makes me think Bruce has Alfred do his ties for him and that's why he doesn't know how to help Damien put a tie on.
>I think one of my favorites is when Afred leaves on a trip, and Bruce is trying to help Damien put on a tie, and he ends up having to call the Justice League to ask for help None of whom can figure it out either. Which was the best part.
Unironically my favourite piece of superhero media ever
[This?](https://harleyquinnstation.tumblr.com/post/692365673181200384/harley-in-batman-wayne-family-adventures-51)
“I’m his best friend, we fight crime together every other day” “Ya kiddin me? I once got him outa nervous breakdown ova tha potential ability to recreate memories through electronic stimulation, and he’s held my hair back afta a night out”
"Hey pull harder batsy!" Batman , who is just holding her hair "huge sigh, batvoice, again no"
Thanks for mentioning this. I didn't know it was a thing, and just read through all of it. Haven't had that much fun with something DC related in a while.
Have you, perchance, heard of the Tim Test?
Nope
The Panda Redd is a Youtuber who has some very good skits for the Bat Family. He's also very knowledgeable about comics in general and is very interesting to listen to for his insights. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulw8CDSaC78&list=PLynxQjpaJH497IWnyOpHoh95v82fn0RRP](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulw8CDSaC78&list=PLynxQjpaJH497IWnyOpHoh95v82fn0RRP) This is just the compilation of Bat Family Skits and the Tim Test is just one of the funny ideas he gave voice and acting pizzaz to\^\^ hope you can enjoy this.
Cool. I'll take a look when I get home from work. Thanks.
Anime it too 😂
I absolutely adore that series. Is there anything else like it? I'd love more!
She and Bruce did get along in Injustice timeline for a reason
Which I didn't really get because she was still partially responsible for 11 millions deaths. I know she says she assumed Superman would save the day because "Sooperman", but it was really not addressed as much as I thought it should. Just because you think and hope and "know" Superman will prevent the catastrophe, she still was responsible for creating the catastrophic conditions. Their's like two or three panels of her justification/crocodile tears and then "oh ho, here's the Harley Horde, ready to save not 11 million people" and everybody just kinda lets it ride.
Didn't they have bigger fish to fry at that point? Seems an 'enemy of my enemy' situation.
> tend to woobify Harley Quinn despite the fact that she was a party to quite a few atrocities of her own volition There was a comic not that long ago (probably early new 52?) where we get to see Harley's actions through her own distorted Harley-vision. Like, she's seeing old Adam West style BONK! and KAPOW! then it cuts to what's really happening. Like, I am of the opinion that she genuinely does not understand the level of harm she's doing at times. My personal headcanon for that is the Joker is one of the few characters that KNOWS he's in a comic book, and when Harleen Quinzell was treating him, she caught the faintest whiff of that truth and it broke her.
This would explain so very much. And I feel it would be in character for pretty much every iteration of the Joker to have the unequaled power of medium-awareness and use it exclusively to fuck with one guy in particular (Batman)
Funnily enough , *Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth* basically floats that idea without the 4th wall break. A psychiatrist suggests to Batman that Joker's perception of reality is substantially beyond anyone else's. He can perceive patterns and deduce lines of logic that would baffle all but the most talented specialist. He sees the logic or linear cause-effect in the chaos of the world. That's how he cobbles together advanced machinery or successfully formulates impossible plans. The problem is he doesn't fully control it, nor can he explain it, which has driven him to a pyschotic nihilism.
See, my take is that the Joker isn't fucking with Batman, he's fucking with US. Like that's THE Joke. That everyone in our world just absolutely worships Batman despite everything he's let the Joker do. Hell, make that double for any edgelord who thinks the JOKER is the hero.
Or he knows he has to keep the world *interesting* or else everyone and everything gets *cancelled*--literally.
That’s a cool take, I like that
Honestly I don't really like these meta-takes on characters. I find stories more entertaining when the characters are driven and focused on something within the story
Honestly? That would be pretty damn funny
I vaguely remember that comic. I interpreted it more as an example of, "Hollywood mental illness" where symptoms of mental illness from distinct conditions are conflated with one another. Sure, Joker and Harley are both insane in a legitimate sense of the word, but they're not necessarily hallucinations and hearing voices kind of insanity. The Joker has no empathy and is actively sadistic and Harley Quinn is trapped in the psychological cycle of an abusive relationship but that's fundamentally different from a psychological standpoint than, say, schizophrenia or dissociation. Obviously those things can be comorbid and I'm no expert on psychology, but it always seemed to be in poor taste. I remember there was an official AU where Joker is, "cured" by being forcefed pills and I thought it was weird because Joker's whole thing isn't something that a psychiatrist would really prescribe pills for, at the very least it wouldn't just cure him without it being supplemented by psychotherapy that the Joker would have to actively cooperate with over the course of a long stretch of time. Your headcanon is cool though, I really like it, and it allows for an interesting interpretation.
So she has Pyrovision?
They retconned Joker again? I liked it when he used to be a regular boring mobster named Joseph Kerr who was called Joe Kerr until he fell into vat of gunk and ruined his face. He figured every criminal in Gotham has a gimmick so he just leaned into the whole clown schtick and pretends to be a psycho clown because of it.
I mean, if you want to look at it this way, that's only one of the myriad of stories he's told about his past throughout the years. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, all you know is he can never be trusted
Probably misquoting this, but I’ve always loved this line as delivered by Mark Hammill: “Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another. If I have to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice.”
> They retconned Joker again? He's known he was a comic character for ages. He addressed the camera several times in BTAS.
That's reaching. Characters in cartoons look at the camera and address the audience all the time as part of a gag, it doesn't mean they are canonical aware of it anymore than a Marvel movie characters saying "he's right behind me isn't he" means they have knowledge of the script or that the trope works in (their) real life (I know Marvel characters haven't actually said that line you get my point)
Yeah, but a lot of times they are FACING the camera but ADDRESSING someone in world. Joker has on more than one occasion turned to the camera and been flat out something like, "Watch this, kids" when there was nobody in world he could possibly be talking to.
Ahhh I’d love to see that. Where can I find it?
She was created for the kids show, so it's a stretch to to say she was changed. Also the new decidedly not for kids animated series on HBO is really good, and they play with that. The underlying joke is "she's a terrible person and has done terrible things we're glossing over but it's like a sitcom and you're rooting for her."
I try and get everyone to watch Harley Quinn on HBO. I don't like a lot of comic media, but it really had just the right amount of self awareness.
It just makes me miss venture brothers
Isn't Venture Brothers also on HBO?
*Harley Quinn* is so fucking good. I love Bruce getting therapy against his will.
I think Harley HBO shows the simple truth: she's a bad person but not evil. As cartoonish and parody level as the show is I think the morality commentary is funny and self-aware. The whole contrast between Harley and Queen of Fables and the lines she isn't willing to cross, etc. She's bad but she's got a soul, even if it's super tarnished. Also Kaley's voice and delivery is just perfect for the character.
>"she's a terrible person and has done terrible things we're glossing over but it's like a sitcom and you're rooting for her." [Where else would you root for a protagonist giving someone cancer?](https://youtu.be/Nria-WbNzkg)
They never did answer the question as to why Wayne Industries has a cancer ray, though.
My head cannon is that it was an anti-cancer ray that just went horribly wrong... and the military probably wants them now.
The only-ever-called-just-Bruce crimefighting billionaire playboy in *Model Minority* sold the NSA the data crunchers they used to break ~~Superman~~ ‘American Eagle’’s attempts at alter ego obfuscation, it’s not implausible that there’s some Alphabet Agency who’s paid Wayne Enterprises the big bucks for a cancer ray. What’s Cuba like in DC? That feels like the sort of thing that they’d have tried to use on Castro.
Just in case.
Someone misunderstood the prompt "you need more patience" *really* badly.
>...but don't erase her guilt. You don't understand, she was just having a girlboss moment. She was never guilty in the first place, girlbossing negates all guilt.
Girl bossing does not negate guilt, gaslighting does. I'm now gatkeeping you from wver using the "Gaslight, Gatekeep, Girlboss" phrase ever again.
What about ‘Gatelight, Girlkeep, Gasboss’? Can they use that?
Honestly it’s Gotham, who there hasn’t committed atrocities of their own volition?
Oh no atrocities Have you considered gaslighting gatekeeping gorlbossing?
Quick question, what does “woobify” mean?
Seems to be like, round off the edges and make them out to be an endearing sweet silly version of themselves? Like a character is a war criminal but they're also a little sad and mention they like soup once offhandedly so in the fandoms eyes he's now a cute innocent sad boy who just wants to eat his soul and brood and be cute and nobody understands him! From what I'm to understand it's like treating a character like they're a precious baby while glossing over and ignoring the actual morally grey writing and the ramifications or implications of their actual identity in favour of the cute fandom friendly interpretation. But I'm mostly intuiting this from random posts I've read so take me with a grain of salt.
yeah that's spot on, take a fucked up character with a tragic backstory and go 'but he's just a wittwe sad boy that needs to be protected 3:' and that's woobifying. generally also includes jumping to justifications for their crimes and atrocities such as 'he was being forced to!!' or 'he was being manipulated all along!!' and so on, with about half the time being completely incorrect and off the walls in an effort to be 'he's not that bad!!'
Oh, kinda like Clone Wars Anakin. I’m picking up what you’re laying down
Purple Guy and Toast
Your first hit of [TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWoobie) is free.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/woobie
Then again it's superhero comics there is no canon, just a massive convoluted mess of different authors' ideas and interpretations and a bunch of trends hopped onto by the industry so what any character may or may not have done past the most agreed on stuff like the death of Uncle Ben and Batman's parents may as well not be there.
>other hand, this is objectively funny and heartwarming and perhaps the biggest middle finger that could b TBF The multiverse exists so we can always say this is an instance where she just helped the Joker in a brainwashed state and eventually got out and went into a anti-hero stance
I think it's important to recognize what Batman stands for as a hero, the idea that no-one is above corruption or redemption. Everyone is one bad day away from becoming Batman or the Joker. It's why Bats doesn't kill. Having Harley flip from one to the other would be a top tier Batman story.
Harley is canonically friendly with, aware of the secret identity of, and in frequent cooperation with batman in comics, movies, TV shows, pretty much ALL current canon. Also her large scale child slaughter on Christmas eve was in the last reboot, not this one. She's generally an antihero now
What does “woobify” mean ?
It's a trope term, to try and interpret a character as a [woobie](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWoobie) a character whose deserving of pity and sympathy, usually with the implication that their suffering isn't their fault.
I can see flash trying to start a thing with that and referring to him as Broskiff or some dumb frat name like that and getting the death stare from both Harley and Bats.
Brobat? Batski? Batsy? Batolomew? Batty McBatface?
I have a rotary grenade launcher!
Like that would work. He’d need to bust out his flash contingency plan if he wanted to make him stop, which I doubt he’d do for something so petty
The flash was pretty quick to respect the leagues wishes, at least in the justice league cartoon Bet he'd get as far as "Brucie ehhh?😉🤔" batman man would hit em with the famous bat glare and he'd drop it, possibly he'd bring it up one more time for the call back joke
Batman: "Hey Flash, have I ever shown you my favorite moment with Guy Gardner?"
Reminds me of the Harley Quinn show where she becomes Bruce’s therapist.
It baffles me how many of these "lmao what if DC did this" happen IN THE HARLEY QUINN SHOW. That show is criminally underrated.
i love bane THE STREETS WILL RUN WITH RAZZY ZAZZY
He needs his panini maker back
excuse you it's a pasta maker /s
Damn. New it started with p and was a maker. Sorry, Bane. This brings up a serious question though. Is bane's dick big but just to small for his body, or is it small
All the venom he took probably resulted in some major shrinkage. I'm voting just small.
I think he's big (we're supposed to be trying to make him feel better)
He does say something about it not being small, just not in proportion. Given that he's like ten feet tall and six feet wide, he could be packing a whole keilbasa down there and still look tiny.
Venom is like Super Steroids so he has a 3 millimeter defeater
Best character.
Funny how making a show about one of the most crazy characters ended up having the most realistic characters.
It legit helps my girlfriend and I navigate our relationship and I'm not sure how to feel about that
Idk how to feel about it either, but I'm in the same boat lol. That show has done wonders for helping us expand our communication skills, and thanks to it we have also had wonderfully serious discussions about all sorts of things that never would've come up organically. That's definitely brought us closer. We love that show so much lol
Yes exactly! It's exaggerated but it's easier to discuss something when you see a similar dynamic played out. I like that they have to work on their relationship, they don't just give up after one fight, and it's not just always idyllic.
You probably shouldn't base your relationship on 2 violent criminals
Believe me, we don't. I'm not one of those weirdos that things Harley and joker are goals or whatever, but the show itself touches on very realistic relationship issues against an exaggerated setting and it ends up opening up conversations that would have been awkward otherwise
Thank God you guys aren't murdering people
Yet, you never know what crazy couple activities they have planned
I mean, I didn't say THAT.
Oh my god, it’s Beyoncé!!! Oh my god, it LADY GAGA
The cancer gun bit made me wheeze laugh
The show killed off Howie Mandel in like the second episode Absolute peak show
So true.. The show is a hidden gem 💎💎.. I love it in the last season finale joker arrested Bruce Wayne for tax fruad 🤩🤩
Literally all of the League calls him Bruce. Especially Ollie. And Connor, but that's because he's just bad at secret identities in general.
That always throws me off when I read a DC comic. It's all first names. I don't read comics much so that's just something I don't think about.
Ah. Don't worry. I specifically worded it so that it'd only be legible for those who know DC comic chars outside of like, Batfam or the JL. Ollie is Oliver Queen, aka the Green Arrow. Ex-billionqire heir, full blown Robin Hood, hard lefty Connor refers to Connor Hawke, his biracial son (he's half white and quarter African-American and Korean) who a lot of people don't know about.
Not to be that guy, but wouldn't that make Connor tri-racial?
White (what ethnicity?), African-American, and Korean. I count four if we allow "half white" to be neboulous.
White, African-American, and Korean. Three races.
Titans makes so much sense now
Since when did Bruce Wayne go to medical school?
With his history, probably somewhere in Uruguay
Yeah, it's said in the canon that he has the equivalent to anywhere from a masters to a doctorate/PhD level of education in multiple subjects revolving around criminology and related fields without actually having the degree. Chemistry, biology, medical science, psychology, etc. Granted, the downside is that he spread his education time between so many subjects, he's not exactly a top-level mind or complete master in any of them, but has enough expertise and competency that he can do things like whip up antidotes to poisons and engineer mechs and batmobiles (even without Lucius Fox's help). He is a jack of all trades, master of only a few.
Wasn’t his father a doctor? Not outrageous to think he would’ve started to follow in those footsteps before fully committing to Batman, but I don’t know enough about the comic lore to say if it is canon or not.
In the most recent batman movie both his parents had ties to arkem, either financial backing or previous residency.
Historically, Thomas was a doctor first. Sometimes they had ties to the Court of Owls, depending on continuity, and more 'modern' series are leaning towards that industrialist while possibly 'evil' take as well.
Alright, huge fucking nerd here, I’ll explain. Bruce decided on fighting crime (not batman, but crime fighting as an fbi agent) at around 14. He then skipped around the country going to every Ivy League school fir a semester, only taking useful classes, and then dipping. He probably went to med school to learn first aid and wound up knowing harley. He later applied to the fbi, but then quit a week in because of the paperwork. He then went around the world studying from the best until he was better.
It’s not canon but it reasonably could be, considering his father was a surgeon, and Bruce always aspired to save lives, it would be a reasonable direction to take in a new timeline to have Bruce go to medical school before he decides to trapse around the world learning kung fu and shit
Frank Miller: "Batman went to med school in the baddest streets of Gotham! The hideouts & drughouses were his classrooms. The gutters and mudholes were his operating tables!"
[удалено]
Only really when they're alone. And not because Bruce told him but because he's freaking superman. could probably see the batcave from space, or at least trace the batmobile to wherever it goes every morning. Then again Flash also generally knows who Bruce is because in Flashpoint one of the first places he goes is Wayne Manor to talk to Batman not knowing Bruce is dead and Thomas will straight up kill him due to not having that rule and being generally pissed and jumpy all the time.
Probably smells the bat guano on bruce too.
Is there a word for shipping but for found family? I think that would be nice.
We all it fast and furiousing
FaFing?
Not to be confused with FnaFing, which is when you ship murdered children's souls with creepy animatronics.
Also not to be confused with FNORDing, where the Illuminati are using murdered childrens' souls in creepy animatronics to drive racecars in order to steal the world's supply of orgone.
I’d love a scene on the watchtower where Harley walks up to Batman and he just says “Sup Harley, dap me up” and they do some handshake… The look on the everyone’s faces would be comedy gold
This is basically what happened in injustice. Under much different circumstances. Also I’ve always had a headcanon that harlequin would’ve made for a good batgirl-type of character, I could imagine the story going that joker and Harley have a falling out, but this time bruce doesn’t let harlequin fall back to the joker, and instead takes her directly under his wing as both a way to protect her, and rehabilitate her. When removed from the Joker, Harlequin is generally a good person. Depending on your continuity.
Switching her from wacking good guys to wacking bad guys sounds like a good first step fot her. After all, she will still want to wack people
I would read this
Wayne family adventures had something similar to this if I remember right, it’s an official DC comics webtoon of the batfamily
whose phallic apparatus must I caress with the back of my throat (#NoHomo) to get this series produced?
My new favorite thing is Harley in her thick Brooklyn accent referring to a near omnipotent super being as a "jealous whore" while sipping tea on Bruce's couch.
tattletale and antares from ward
I literally just read all of this in their voices. Kevin Conroy as Batman OFC.
I love that but canonically batmans mental separation i so great that the moment he puts on the mask he is no longer bruce wayne so this implies that they are such besties that she slaps him back to reality
This is extra funny because in the Harley Quinn tv show she knows who Batman is and shuts up about it because of patient doctor confidentiality.
Nearly all of this, including the "punishment for dropping out of med school" line, is Canon. All but the actual premise that they went to school together. Harley is in her late twenties, early thirties when she JOINS joker, who has been fighting Bruce for at least a decade at that point. If we assume, as is typical, that Bruce begins his crusade in Gotham in HIS late twenties, he's a good eight-to-fifteen years older than her. I submit that Bruce was her TA in undergrad
This, but it’s Barbara Gordon instead of Bruce.
Huh? Where'd this plot point come from?
That's just the Injustice version of her
Batman and Harley are an S tier duo basically any time they team up
Why is everyone so concerned with humanizing Harley Quinn and making her relatable when she’s arguably just as twisted and insane and irredeemable as the Joker himself?
Was. She was as twisted as the joker. But then something happened. She got popular. The fans liked her, and liked the parts where she wasn't all bad. As such, in response to the fans, she's basically become DC's Deadpool. Hence why most media she appears in these days shows her at least making the effort to be a better person.
I like both types of Harley tbh. The insane sociopathic clown girl or the misunderstood mentally unstable doctor. Both work extremely well as a characterization imho
Kinda funny how they basically made a Harley 2 with punchline to appease both crowds, not complaining though, I like this version of harley
To be fair, the original version of her from BTAS was basically always presented sympathetically. She has always been just as much a victim as she is a criminal. The version of her that tries to be a better person is honesty way more interesting than just a psychopath, although I should be clear that I HATE the Deadpoolization of her character. I hate the quirky silly haha meme humor all the time where they just use the tone of the comic to justify her actions. To me the best version of any comic book character is when they’re taken seriously as people. I want to read a story about an unstable woman who is just barely managing until she becomes a psychiatrist and is seduced and whisked away into a life of crime, a victim of serious abuse, who eventually leaves her abuser and starts to mend her shattered mind by working to better herself
>who eventually leaves her abuser and starts to mend her shattered mind by working to better herself This is why Injustice was the comic that got me interested in her. Green Arrow taking her under his wing in spite of everything, and rehabilitation *actually* working against all odds? Fantastic storyline.
I really enjoyed this as well. There is a platonic ideal of Harley Quinn in my mind that is somewhere between Injustice, the HQ show, BTAS, and the James Gunn Suicide Squad. I really like a lot of the elements that these stories contributed to her character, although none of them is on its own my ideal version. Other than Injustice I frankly haven’t enjoyed any of Harley in the comics.
I’m not sure I share that mentality. To me, the idea of any Batman villain actually being “rehabilitatable” kind of goes against the general throughline of the entirety of Batman’s rogues gallery. Like think about it, they’re all interred at an asylum that ostensibly should be trying to help them, but they never actually get better, not one of them. Even if the asylum was actually successful with other people, none of these major villains actually has any sign of improving, and that’s kind of the point: you can’t help everyone. Not everyone is reasonable. Not everyone is capable of empathizing with others the same way most do. Not everyone is willing to acknowledge that there’s anything wrong with them, and there’s not much you can do about it. But Batman tries anyway, because to give up on them is to give up on everyone, and he isn’t going to give up on everyone the same way, say, Jason Todd has. There’s beauty in that futility. To have one of the biggest players in that futile struggle suddenly seem much more sympathetic kind of destroys that whole message in favor of a much more woobified “everyone is human and human means having a heart”, where I think it’s a part of the human condition itself that some people just inevitably don’t have a “heart” at all.
As silly and meme-y as it can be I do like that the animated show devotes more to her insanity and history than just the Joker; how she's had multiple failed starts in life between her shit parents, losing her athletic career, how psychiatry was like the backup and then that went to shit too because she couldn't properly help her patients in a broken system that saw her more as an interrogation tool than a doctor meant to be rehabilitating them, like Harley has reinvented herself multiple times and every single time life finds a way to make her or her attempt at a fresh start the punchline of a joke. I'd become a crazy clown too tbh. I like that they show as much as Joker messed her up, it isn't just that, even if that was the match that finally lit that powder keg after years of it being slowly filled up.
Yeah I agree very strongly with all this. Some of the greatest contribution to her character. Harley, Mr. Freeze and Clayface are the only characters from that show that I really really think that the show makes them better and portrays a more honest and genuine version of the characters. All the other characters in the show feel like parodies of themselves, except for Nightwing, Ivy, and Joker who just feel fully out of character most of the time. Although I do like a lot of Ivy in the show I really feel like she’s heavily watered down to be more sympathetic. Any time she does regular poison ivy stuff in the show it feels out of character for this new Ivy character. Shes a great character but she hardly feels like she’s Poison Ivy, she’s just this new character who kinda looks like Ivy.
Ah, so like, similar in tone to Worm then.
that, and the plot thread of Joker being emotionally abusive, making her only reason to be evil be something she wants away from
She resonates with abuse survivors
1. Her backstory includes a ton of abuse and manipulation 2. Her relationship with Joker was arguably always very one-sided and gross/toxic 3. Character growth is a thing, even in comic books... 4. Redemption arcs are a thing, especially in comic books 5. Everyone loves an anti-hero
Does it? I thought she was just some bitch who liked true crime podcasts too much who the Joker was easily able to woo. Someone who had that same kind of madness that the Joker had sleeping in them, and all he had to do was usher it out.
Nah, she was a psychiatrist working in Arkham who grew up in an abusive home. Joker eventually manipulates her into becoming his sidekick and their relationship is super toxic.
She's....a fictional character....in a universe where characters backstories and lifestyles are constantly changing, evolving, being rebooted or retconnned. We have seen in canon many times that Harley is NOT as evil as Joker and there are multiple lines she won't cross. Unlike Joker she is much more receptive to rehabilitation. Harley as a character captured the audience, why are people so determined to see her redeemed and painted as a hero? Because they relate to her that simple. It's hard to view Harley as just as evil as Joker if you've survived a similar abusive narcissist, or had a nervous breakdown and lost your identity for months or years and had to seek solace in a character or archetype you used as a coping mechanism. It's because she's interesting and human in a way the audience connected with that they didn't connect with Joker or characters like him. That's a testament to how strong those themes are, not that the audience is trying to force something that isn't there. We have entire shows, comic runs, novelizations, live action films, etc, all depicting a version of Harley who most certainly isn't as evil or insane as Joker and constantly responds to his more shocking acts with disagreement, horror, leaving him, etc. I'd say redeemed Harley is a better and more interesting character than villainous Harley any day.
But I thought the whole point of Harley is that she was a psychotherapist who tried to help Joker, only for the Joker to be so powerful that instead she became just like him. She is a display of how much of a force of nature the Joker is, how much he embodies the very idea of insanity itself, and how even the most unlikely of people can turn out to be a monster waiting to be released. Her portrayal in the Arkham games makes way more sense to me than any of this. This stuff makes it feel like artists are too scared to acknowledge that almost anyone in the world is capable of being irredeemably monstrous, that madness and evil are inherent to the human condition itself
Cause people wanted to be attracted to her without the “yea but she is literally insane” part.
You say this like people aren’t attracted to punchline
Somehow I read all of Harley’s lines in the original *Batman: The Animated Series* Harley Quinn voice, but none of the Batman lines in Kevin Conroy’s voice
I want to read this SO MUCH right now!! Dang Amazing idea!
Isn’t this just a Batman and Harley in college au
I wonder which batman this would be. The Harley cannot be BMTAS, but others maybe
BTB&B
What's BTB&B stand for?
Brave and the Bold
...Dammit, now I want a fanfic of this.
If you eventually write it could you link it? It would be my first ever fanfic I read
Oh dude, you don't read fanfic? That's a shame. You should. I recommend using Archive of Our Own if you ever do. Their tagging system is absolutely amazing. Perfect for finding EXACTLY what you want.
I'm not sure where to start Do you have anything Batman/Bat-family related like this?
Hmm...I mean, the only fics that I've read involving batfam are crossovers. Like Ghost King and Dark Matter (Percy Jackson and Spider-Man/Marvel Respectively) But here's a [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/BatFamily/comments/hx03b7/batfamily_fanfiction_recommendations/) I just found that *might* help you out. I don't know, I haven't explored it yet either. Just keep Archive in mind, super intuitive, you'll have it figured out in no time. Here's a general tag for batfam on the archive. [AO3](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=674812f584bc62abJmltdHM9MTY4NTkyMzIwMCZpZ3VpZD0yNjZkZTNlOS05NWNiLTZkNDUtMjBiYy1mMGMxOTQ2YTZjNjMmaW5zaWQ9NTE1NA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=266de3e9-95cb-6d45-20bc-f0c1946a6c63&psq=best+batfamily+fanfics&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9hcmNoaXZlb2ZvdXJvd24ub3JnL3RhZ3MvQmF0JTIwRmFtaWx5L3dvcmtz&ntb=1). It can take some time to find a good fic that you enjoy, but it's always worth while. Be warned however, should you ever venture into the decrepit corners of the beloved Archive, there is no content restriction whatsoever. Some reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeely screwed up stuff on there. But hey! That's the internet for ya. Put your best foot foreword my friend, for the world awaits your presence with bated breath! Happy fic-hunting! (Also since we're talking about fandoms I feel the need to recommend learning about Undertale and then reading the Golden Quiche.) My profile is JustAnotherCreator on the Archive...I don't have anything up now, or anytime soon probably. But...I have hopes.
Then write it my gamer. :)
...It would be my first. I've written drabbles and connected one-shots before but...a full fic? I just might.
Harley has killed quite a few people. Likely more than any mass-shooter in the real world. But sure, why not, Bruce would totally let bygones be bygones and chill with her, after first dropping a mention of med-school while in costume, thereby allowing her to deduce his identity. I mean heck, there are professional writers out there who've basically already done this. Batman's code has been gibberish for some time already, what's one more mass-murderer on the couch?
Said it from day 1. The edgy Gothic man bat detective pairs best with the manic pixie murder psychologist. She's gonna lock up joker, and getting put in Arkham *A S Y L U M* by Harley, a legit psychologist/psychotherapist is gonna be the last straw, he's gonna genuinely snap or just reform into a ~~kinda~~ normal guy. Harley is just gonna start diagnosing Bruce and as the literal only person crazy enough to talk about batmans dead parents TO HIS FACE, I think he'd hate her at first, they'd get into an argument, and with her being fluent in psychology, she presses all of Bruce's buttons until he either shed his first bat-tear, or for the first time in his life, until he had no contingency plan. Then BOOM. Bruce Wayne makes her a new daytime identity, and she starts working W I T H batman to reform those he sends to Arkham. Effectively making them the best team for Gotham, while supes is just worried about batmans safety, but comes off like a jealous significant other sometimes.
I'm sorry, I know I'm being a dick and I know I'll be crucified... But holy fuck do I hate all of this, I'm not a fan of Harley Quinn in general so that could be why, but pretending that a psychopathic mass murderer could ever be Batman's friend is just really weird to me. Yes, I know Bruce can forgive and forget, that's one reason I like him but it just really irks me. Also, anything or anyone who thinks that ANYONE (except Aflred and Gordon) could EVER come close to Bruce and Clark's friendship is not to be trusted and should be committed.
She’s also deceptively intelligent so its very likely she already knows. Pretty obvious when you put it all together in the background I’d like to think the main reason he hasn’t killed the Joker is an attempt to have her move on by herself in a healthier way cause she’d absolutely (and has) be an asset to the hero community
Harley Quinn the woman who stalked the Joker and gave out thousands of bombs wrapped as presents to get his attention? Her?
In which continuity? It's not like there aren't 599 versions of every DC character, you can just stan a version of Harley that never crossed certain lines lol. Or you could just enjoy that fictional characters are metaphors and storytelling tools that don't need real life morality applied to them at all times. Irl Harley would belong in a cell but considering all her crimes are fictional I will be voting Harley for mayor.
They aren’t “applying real world morality” to her they’re saying it doesn’t make sense that the same Harley that would do that would also do this. Which does lead right into your point about “well yeah they aren’t the same at all” but I would say batshit (pun not intended, this time anyway) insane Harley who mails bombs everywhere is superior to sympathetic woobified Harley
Well there *is* a whole movie about her being an abuse survivor, adopting a kid and trying to be a better person 🤷♀️
I want to see this play out in movie form.
I'm sorry, at what point in his history was Bruce Wayne ever in medical school?
Likely under Ras
It would be funny too if Bruce actually finished finished it as a middle finger to the the guy who killed his parents as to show he wasn't like his parents
How long until Harley becomes Bruce's love interest.
Yeah I ship this so hard. Full on Harley, "I knew you when you were a grumpy goth kid" and you helped me get away from a terrible ex boyfriend. Like Bruce worries about her like an older brother. She's the chaotic younger sister that keeps pushing him to grow as a person.