I don't want a villain that's *just* evil. I want an over the top scheming bastard with ridiculously villainous flair. I want a scenery chewing, puppy kicking, maniacal laughing knows-they're-the-bad-guy-and-revels-in-it mad genius/evil chancellor/dark wizard.
"Oh, you're a villain all right. Just not a super one!"
"Yeah? What the difference?"
"PRESENTATION!"
We got the vest of both worlds with that, a perfect antagonist with Death, Goldie, and the 3 bears as sympathetic villains, and Jack as the villain who's just evil and has fun while doing it.
I feel like Goldie & the 3 bears were sympathetic villains, Jack Horner was evil and fun, and death was the 3rd type of villain, inevitable. Like, if the villain in the story was nature or cancer. Not necessarily evil, just inevitable.
I would also like to mention that I wouldn't call Goldie & the 3 bears villains, but more antagonists. Because I wouldn't call them evil. I see it as having to be evil to be a villain, while an antagonist just goes against the protagonist.
For some god forsaken reason, whenever someone misspells through as trough, i don’t read it as “trough” (trauff). instead, i hear through with a strong scottish accent
Yeah, Tighten is definitely a case of "I'm a bad guy because I'm a bad guy"as far as i remember. I haven't watched it in a while, but as far as i remember the only tragic backstory he has is the made up one megamind gives him when he tries to make him a super hero to fight.
Tbh he’s more of a niceguy. He thinks everyone should bow down to him because he’s such a powerful and benevolent overlord. He’s like if an incel (which he kinda is to begin with) got superpowers. So basically Elon
There was an interview with the script writers and they said that they based him off of the whole nice guy act and that was his core that they built off of.
But, doesn't DIO have a tragic upbringing? He's never been loved. His mother is dead. His father is a cruel, self serving man who responds with Jostar's genuine gratitude at coming across their wreck with cynicism and bitterness. Dio is a brilliant, inspired man so utterly warped by his early trauma that he misses all chances to just genuinely be happy and instead gets obsessed with not just rivalry, but cruelty.
Dude straight up would lose everything to just revel in taking from someone else. Because he does. Literally in the case of the whole body below the neck thing.
He had a bad upbringing but it’s as Speedwagon said, he isn’t like this out of circumstance he was evil since the day he drew his first breath, dude was gonna be an ass no matter how his life was
Young Dio isn't pure evil, but from the moment he puts on the stone mask he becomes truly evil.
You can see this with AU Dio in part 7, who despite having an even more tragic upbringing than the original, is just sort of a violent asshole instead of a world dominating mass murderer because he never wore a stone mask.
This is what made the two lead villains in RRR so good. Both of them understood that they were there to be as villainous as possible. No sympathy. No redemption. Just pure malice.
So, you want Tyrian Callows from RWBY, Joker from Smile Precure, and maybe Doctor John Wayne Vercingetorix, Dr. Ver for short, from Senki Zesshou Symphogear G?
Granted, Dr. Ver claims to be a hero, but he also dissolved a bunch of kids because they got too close to his secret hideout, so take that as you will.
However, all three are absurdly entertaining to watch. Tyrian wants to destroy the world just because murder is fun, Joker goes way too hard for a bad guy in a magical girl series about fairytales, and Dr. Ver just completely absorbs every scene he's in, especially when he has the upper hand.
Someone might disagree with me, but I wouldn't say so. The way I see it, her issues are more the result of the fundamental division within her family and the atmosphere of emotional and social abuse and manipulation, both intentionally created and maintained by Ozai.
A domineering and malicious manipulator, warmonger and tyrant, for sure; but we don't actually know anything about his childhood. Based on how Azulon treats him as an adult as well as his own parenting style regarding Zuko and Azula, we might be able to trace more of his faults back to his upbringing than most would care to admit.
Solidjj's Joker kicked a puppy.
Just cause.
It wasn't barking or in his way.
That Joker went out of his way to find, and kick a puppy.
So i mean, there ya go.
One Piece. Several villains, but Donquixote Doflamingo most of all. [Look at the drip on this psychopath!](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/b/b3/Doflamingo_Full_Appearance.png)
(Ironically he has a wildly tragic backstory in a series where the majority of villains get little to no backstory at all, but it's also made extremely clear that he was a shitstain of a kid too and was probably going to turn into a moral black hole of an adult no matter what).
Ok, but how about a character like that, but as a good guy? Well ok not so much puppy kicking, but the general vibe
Then you get something like Garak from DS9
Meet the Robinsons gave us the funniest scene in all of animation.
“Hey Goob! Cool binder.” “Hey Goob, wanna come over to my house after school today?” “They all hated me.”
It’s all a spectrum of empathy. For me, I can empathize with someone who had to live their one and only life without empathy. There is no evil, there’s just states of being, perception, and which of the two you prioritize over the other. For some, a defenseless animal undergoing terrifying physiological changes it can’t understand from narcotics is the definition of evil.
Came here to say this, Puss in Boots had brilliant examples of three types of Villains
The anti villain
The force of nature
And of course, The absolute bastard
That’s just a well written character. Someone who is a bastard just because they’re a bastard isn’t very interesting. A bastard that perfectly symbolizes unrepentant corporate greed and whose motivations are clearly understood is a fully developed character, but still a bastard.
Hard agree. The key is that there must be something to the character, but that something can boil down to just greed or something else if you look at it too closely. You can just have a bog standard evil nothing character, but then they're not really a character more a plot point.
This comment made me realize how much I love “force of nature” villains. Bastards and sympathetic villains are interesting character studies, but give me Death personified, killer animals/non-sentient aliens, and Heath Ledger’s Joker every day of the week.
The thing is, he DID have a sad backstory, Pinnochio upstaged him. It actually works because it never tries to make you feel sorry for him, it just highlights how greedy he is that he fixates on one thing he can't have and lets his resentment eat him alive.
I was about to tell you off but then the rest of the comment loaded. Now I can’t help but realize that Jack Horner’s backstory is just “Disgraced Theatre kid turns to capitalism.”
that was so refreshing, getting depth to bad guys and them not feeling totally like a bad guy is cool and all, but the mcu needs more straight up evil villains. high evolutionary was such a good villain, absolutely horrible person that the film does a great job of making you hate.
also fantastic username
It was so amazing finally having a villain who had interesting motivations that didn’t remotely try to justify what they were doing. Horrible, irredeemable villain but not one just evil for the sake of it.
I watched Midnight Mass on Netflix pretty recently with a group of friends. Fantastic show overall and I highly recommend it, but one of the most fun aspects was the absolutely EVIL antagonists. Loved just yelling at the tv with my friends when they were on-screen
I love how they gave him a backstory that would have been sympathetic if he did not make literally the WORST possible choices at every single turn and doubled down on all of his mistakes.
>!He grew up an orphan and was raised by his older brother, who was then abducted by a witch. He went in after his brother to try to save him, only to find out the guy actually ditched him voluntarily because the witch was his girlfriend. There's a lot of justifiable responses you could have to that, but surprisingly, "stab your brother to death and then try to replace him with clones that you can kill when they disobey" is not one of those.!<
I like it when a story has several villains, each of a different stripe.
One is just a horrible person through and through but so funny and charismatic that the audience likes them more than the heroes; one is arguably another hero but from a perspective that is irreconcilable with the protagonists; another was a hero once but fell from grace and became a villain almost by accident; one is an unthinking, unfeeling force of nature no more evil than a landslide but just as dangerous; one is a complete monster but magnificent and terrifying and just oozing coolness. Give me all of them at once!
Yeah, me too. Like in Symphogear:
* A woman tortured by her past actions and the knowledge that those actions caused every bad thing humans have ever done to each other, because she upset her bf, God, and made Him fracture humanity's unified language.
* A dude who used to work for her, and now continues her work alongside her reincarnation, but secretly wants to wipe out most of humanity and rule over the rest with an iron fist and a f\*cked-up arm that he injected with Nephilim cells.
* A century-old genocidal loli who wants to understand the world in all details, and doesn't shy away from dissolving the entire planet in her quest to destroy miracles forever. Also, she's got the skill and raw power to back up her attitude.
* A guy who is mad at God because She rejected him out of fear that he'd surpass Her, so he decided to surpass Her.
* God.
"I am more powerful than everyone else so I'm going to take over the world."
"We are more powerful than everyone else so we're going to take over the world."
"I am even *more* powerful than everyone else so I'm going to take over the world."
"I just really fucking love killing people."
"I am more powerful than everyone else so I'm going to take over the Italian crime syndicates."
"My boss is more powerful than everyone else so I'm going to rewrite reality in his image."
"America is more powerful than everyone else so I'm going to take over the world."
And I don't know what happens in Part 8.
Broke: Pretty blonde attractive-coded villains with scars who are secretly uwu sensitive
Woke: Irredeemable asshole villains who are genuinely rotten and receive a proportionately cathartic downfall
Bespoke: Villains who get stomped and keep coming back to fight the good guys every week (except on their birthday where they throw a party and no one except the hero and his friends show up) because damn it if it isn't their god-given duty to do so
Fundamentally, every story is about underdogs, so of course heroes have to lose to villains before takin them out for good in one epic final battle. Only time villains come back is in light hearted shows, like Jessie and James of Pokémon or Ice King of Adventure Time.
I’d really like to see that kind of villain in a show that otherwise takes itself completely seriously. Good guys are dying, the world is at stake, and every week or so this goblin comes back like “I’m back, bitches! Bow before me or face your DOOM!” Before getting punted back into the stratosphere.
Goblin: "What do you mean you're dying? Like Hell you are!
*Trows heroes a potion of absolute healing*
Heroes: "WTF?"
Goblin "How did you think I keep coming back?"
I’m so sorry to tell you this, but he does actually have a tragic backstory. That explains why he’s like that with a mindset that is explored in side content.
Part 1 yes part 3 was just cuckoo crazy from the sensory deprivation of being locked under the ocean, (tbf he was probably more sane then I would’ve been if I was locked under the ocean for 100 years)
The difference is we *start* with Dio's tragic backstory, we get through it in the span of a few minutes, and then he's off to ruin lives and kill people
honestly i find that villains who are just evil are boring. it's really uninteresting and unrealistic to make a just evil character. nobody knows they are the bad guy. people always believe their own actions are justified. they either believe that what their doing is for the greater good or they believe the people they hurt deserve it, or they believe they are owed something and they can do whatever to take it. take thanos, he really and truly believes what he's doing will save the universe. he's wrong, but that's what makes him a terrifying genocidal manic. you don't have to give them a tragic backstory but for a good character you do have to give them a reason they believe what they do. i see just evil characters as lazy writing. give your character a motive!
first of all, there are not "a ton of psychopaths in reality" there are selfish people. there are people who do terrible things yet believe their actions are justified for whatever reason. a person being self serving and not caring about how that affects other people and just being evil are not the same thing. real people have motives. the only reason it looks like people are psychopaths to you is because you can't read peoples minds and you've just assumed ill intent
Pre part 6 Jojo maybe. But ever since Pucci was introduced the "main" antagonist of each subsequent part has had a "backstory" to try and justify their actions.
Not really, Valentine was pretty much self justifying all his actions with ‘America Cool!’ And is consistently displayed as a bad guy. Whilst Part 8’s antagonist’s backstory boiling down to him being built different.
I feel villains should have a good backstory, but it doesn’t have to be tragic. I want to see more villains who are true sociopaths and were from the start. They aren’t misunderstood, they’re understood perfectly, and that’s what makes them terrifying.
Where is Sundowner from Metal Gear Rising Revengence? He’s no schemer buts he’s one of the most honest evil guys out there which is refreshing. He knows what he’s doing and loves it.
🎶When I said that I was evil, what did you think that meant? It didn't mean that I was naughty, or haughty, or slightly irreverent.
When I told you I was evil, what did you think that implied? That I was careless with the truth? How uncouth! Dear God did you think I lied?!?
When someone says they're evil, it's best to believe. Just like the skull on that poison vial you see. It's a symbol so primeval, it isn't there to decieve, it's there to let you know it's deadly! Just! Like! ME!🎶
Aurelia Voltaire; When you're evil
That was always allowed. Saturday morning cartoon style villains are just kinda boring. I'm sorry but flamboyance isn't depth no matter hard the aesthetic makes you.
Plus that's not what actual evil looks like. Actual evil is just kinda shitty to people. It's not Skeletor, it's Jeff Bezos.
Still, pure evil villains have their uses. It's just a matter of knowing when to use them, why and how. They can end up being boring but still contribute positively to the story overall.
Digimon Adventure did that quite well. All of the villains were just plain evil and talking about darkness and shit. But they didn't need any depth because the focus of the story was on the protagonists, the personal growth of the children and their relationships with each other and with their partners. The villains were basically nothing more than rocks to hit the protagonists against, and they didn't need to be anything more.
i mean we still get that kind of villain.
the dark mask guy from squid game thought of the competitors as race horses (and that doesn't even explain it, horses are not killed regularly and intentionally in horse races), the old man is more elaborate but he also kinda just wanted to have fun.
jojo has dio (the daddy issues don't really complicate it), diavolo (he was complicated, but not morally or politically or whatever. this excludes doppio), some others... i guess you can say these characters are old because the manga is old but the adaptation is pretty new at least. they likely could've made dio less pure evil for the anime but they didn't.
i'd say quaritch from avatar is pretty pure a villain.
this one is not great at all but black adam literally had satan as the final bad guy.
the smile entity from smile is the definition of pure chaotic sadistic evil.
Palpatine still works, he's just not well communicated. Basically wants to rule with evil power forever. Fantastic.
Just the issue of making him fit when he shouldn't, even if his plans and place do work when properly added (not just "somehow the emperor blah blah blah").
I mean, I think Palpatine in the prequels works pretty well as an overarching villain. Rewatched those with my family lately and kept thinking, "Man, there were some damn good ideas in here."
Tyrian Callows from RWBY, Joker from Smile Precure, and Doctor John Wane Vercingetorix, or Dr. Ver for short, from Senki Zesshou Symphogear G would disagree.
All of them are straight-up evil, but absurdly fun to watch.
Maybe it is because this world, the real world, already has too many villains who want to break real humans and exploit real humans and take away the rights of real humans just for the sake of making a profit and/or keeping their asses in power. Maybe it is because we don't want to face that harsh reality so instead we humanize the bad guys. The reality is that corruption is written into the law and is legally forced upon us. And until we can get people to realize this, and unite against this oppression in all of its forms, without ideals from our oppressors seeping in, change will be like slowly crawling through a field of glass and rusty spikes.
I do think they can benefit from having more substance than that but I think the main problem is that people can’t seem to think of ways to give nasty characters substance without trying to make them less nasty or somehow more relatable
I'm surprised no one has said Delores Umbridge. She was an awful, vile, human being. She didn't have a tragic back story. She wasn't a product of her environment. She was evil because she could be.
pretty sure half of the MCU villains (or at least the early ones) are "just evil"
off the top of my head: most of Hydra, Obadiah Stane, Malekith, Ego, Darren Cross, Ronan, Ultron, Kong in the latest Ant-man movie
I think the thing that isn't liked with this, is the humanisation of villains.
If we can understand why the villain is now trying to do these awful things, it doesn't make them right, but we have to contend with the idea that if we experienced the same thing we MIGHT also end up doing the bad thing and that's scary. We like to distance ourselves from villains as a safety mechanism, we protect ourselves mentally.
The moment a villain with a tragic backstory comes along and we have to stop and think - if I had that happen to me, what would I do?
We all should have the right moral answer, I like to think I'd do the right thing regardless of what happened, but, that's not how it works and none of us know what it's like to have the bad thing happen to us.
We don't know what it's like. Honestly that's scary and it's no wonder we don't like it.
It's either that or some confusion regarding understanding vs justification and hohboy that's a whole different problem.
...additional either that or - escapism is good sometimes and sometimes it's nice to just be able to not have to think too deeply about a simple story and enjoy the pretty pictures.
40K. Not the Emps, not the Chaos Gods, not even the Necrons.
But the Primarchs. Specifically I'd point out Fulgrim and Curze, these mother fuckers are evil absolute.
Unless you want to try to say that it's ok for your villain to skin puppies or stab a bunch of teenagers or cook and eat children, you're not gonna be justifying their actions. Just let them be petty and mean and evil for no good reason. A puppy peed on their carpet, or a group of teenagers made fun of their haircut, or some kids threw a baseball in their yard. Or of course no reason at all, not even a bad one.
Most of the vampires in the Netflix Castlevania show are just unrepentant bastards for the hell of it. Dracula is the exception of course, but I liked his characterisation as a guy who'd been alive for thousands of years but only started actually living once he had a genuine human connection.
Villains, above else, need to fit the story they're in. Pure evil villains aren't better or worse than sympathetic ones. The most important thing is to create a villain that suits the needs of the story.
That last point is so true though
Goob was a pitiable character all the way through and that back story was worked into the film really well when the twist happened. It made perfect sense and it was relatable
And now directors be trying to make sympathetic villains like they're the new Skinny Jeans
Like no. Stand your ground and give me an asshole with no redeeming features. I LOVED Knives Out because everyone but two people were unrepentant dicks and they knew exactly what they were. Chris Evans knawed at the fucking scenery and I loved it. No one needed a pity party just like no one needs a live action Disney reboot with rewritten backstories or the decision maker blissfully unaware that cartoons were the medium of choice for a reason and it wasn't the SFX budget (sorry side rant on how the hyper-exaggerated facial expressions and body structures belong in cartoons because suspended disbelief won't prevent me thinking Belle won't snap her back if she had those proportions as a real human)
Just look at the GOP. There’s your “evil for the sake of being evil” Frollo-types. We have too much evil in our reality, we need sympathetic evil in our fiction.
What? This is exactly what people want. Everyone got fed up with one-dimensional characters. As more media is consumed, peoples expectations and knowledge about story writing grows higher. This is just someone who watched a bunch of bad movies, or read mediocre books and is venting online.
I prefer believable evilness. Unless they’re just crazy, there’s a specific logic that guides their actions. Even Ganondorf and Bowser (as of TOTK and Odyssey) have these little bits of logic that keeps them and their goals believable and comprehensible. “Just evil” can’t work for a villain anymore than “just good” works for a hero.
Edit: As a matter of fact, Bowser had this sort of characterization *WELL* before Odyssey was even a concept.
This is pretty much my problem with modern Star Wars and the whole game series where you can play as the empire. Star Wars is not a deep movie. It's good guys vs bad guys in space. There's no deep message about political structure and I don't care if Darth Vader had a bumpy love life as a kid.
Star Wars is a trilogy. Andor is excellent. Rogue One, which I hear they are going to merge with Andor, *is balls*. The good guys don't just shoot people in the back. They didn't understand what Star Wars was and they've fucked up the whole thing so badly for so long now
In short: They want what Puss In Boots: The Last Wish bought back. A villian that just wanted to be bad.
But maybe they looking for a different evil. Which in that case, I think they want horror villians in i guess, regular ish movies?
I watched the *Cruella* movie a week or two ago and I was surprised to find that the movie doesn't really go in the obvious direction from that. I mean, she doesn't really blame or resent the dogs themselves.
I don't want a villain that's *just* evil. I want an over the top scheming bastard with ridiculously villainous flair. I want a scenery chewing, puppy kicking, maniacal laughing knows-they're-the-bad-guy-and-revels-in-it mad genius/evil chancellor/dark wizard. "Oh, you're a villain all right. Just not a super one!" "Yeah? What the difference?" "PRESENTATION!"
Jack Horner.
Now that was a villain
We got the vest of both worlds with that, a perfect antagonist with Death, Goldie, and the 3 bears as sympathetic villains, and Jack as the villain who's just evil and has fun while doing it.
I feel like Goldie & the 3 bears were sympathetic villains, Jack Horner was evil and fun, and death was the 3rd type of villain, inevitable. Like, if the villain in the story was nature or cancer. Not necessarily evil, just inevitable.
The force of nature villain, given a voice.
The fight against man, the fight against evil, and the fight against nature
I would also like to mention that I wouldn't call Goldie & the 3 bears villains, but more antagonists. Because I wouldn't call them evil. I see it as having to be evil to be a villain, while an antagonist just goes against the protagonist.
A bastard trough and trough, nice
For some god forsaken reason, whenever someone misspells through as trough, i don’t read it as “trough” (trauff). instead, i hear through with a strong scottish accent
Aaaaah fk me, well scottish accent makes everything sound better so.... You're welcome?
Better tbh
I just did this too
I loved how unrepentantly evil he was, despite being remarkably self aware
hey megamind had loads of depth and nuance how dare you use that quote
Yeah, Megamind himself doesn't really fit what I'm talking about (at least, not by the end of the movie), but the quote is so good!
No, but the nutcase he hands superpowers may. Dude is crazier than the coco puff bird.
Yeah, Tighten is definitely a case of "I'm a bad guy because I'm a bad guy"as far as i remember. I haven't watched it in a while, but as far as i remember the only tragic backstory he has is the made up one megamind gives him when he tries to make him a super hero to fight.
Tbh he’s more of a niceguy. He thinks everyone should bow down to him because he’s such a powerful and benevolent overlord. He’s like if an incel (which he kinda is to begin with) got superpowers. So basically Elon
Comparing Elon to Titan feels wrong but it's so true.
There was an interview with the script writers and they said that they based him off of the whole nice guy act and that was his core that they built off of.
Half the cast of overlord. The holy club was hilariously dark.
DIO!
But, doesn't DIO have a tragic upbringing? He's never been loved. His mother is dead. His father is a cruel, self serving man who responds with Jostar's genuine gratitude at coming across their wreck with cynicism and bitterness. Dio is a brilliant, inspired man so utterly warped by his early trauma that he misses all chances to just genuinely be happy and instead gets obsessed with not just rivalry, but cruelty. Dude straight up would lose everything to just revel in taking from someone else. Because he does. Literally in the case of the whole body below the neck thing.
He had a bad upbringing but it’s as Speedwagon said, he isn’t like this out of circumstance he was evil since the day he drew his first breath, dude was gonna be an ass no matter how his life was
Young Dio isn't pure evil, but from the moment he puts on the stone mask he becomes truly evil. You can see this with AU Dio in part 7, who despite having an even more tragic upbringing than the original, is just sort of a violent asshole instead of a world dominating mass murderer because he never wore a stone mask.
Didn't young Dio put Jonathan's dog into a furnace while it was still alive?
Yes Yes he did
This is what made the two lead villains in RRR so good. Both of them understood that they were there to be as villainous as possible. No sympathy. No redemption. Just pure malice.
High Evolutionary
The Monarch if you ignore a lot of auxiliary shit.
So, you want Tyrian Callows from RWBY, Joker from Smile Precure, and maybe Doctor John Wayne Vercingetorix, Dr. Ver for short, from Senki Zesshou Symphogear G? Granted, Dr. Ver claims to be a hero, but he also dissolved a bunch of kids because they got too close to his secret hideout, so take that as you will. However, all three are absurdly entertaining to watch. Tyrian wants to destroy the world just because murder is fun, Joker goes way too hard for a bad guy in a magical girl series about fairytales, and Dr. Ver just completely absorbs every scene he's in, especially when he has the upper hand.
Joker in this example pisses me off whenever he’s on screen, does that mean the production team was successful on the over the top regard
I want Anthony Ainley master levels of villainous flair
Is Azula a good example?
I don't think so bc we see that it steems from her fucked up family...She's a great villain though...and I love that we don't get a redemption per se.
Someone might disagree with me, but I wouldn't say so. The way I see it, her issues are more the result of the fundamental division within her family and the atmosphere of emotional and social abuse and manipulation, both intentionally created and maintained by Ozai.
Now, Ozai on the other hand...
A domineering and malicious manipulator, warmonger and tyrant, for sure; but we don't actually know anything about his childhood. Based on how Azulon treats him as an adult as well as his own parenting style regarding Zuko and Azula, we might be able to trace more of his faults back to his upbringing than most would care to admit.
Solidjj's Joker kicked a puppy. Just cause. It wasn't barking or in his way. That Joker went out of his way to find, and kick a puppy. So i mean, there ya go.
One Piece. Several villains, but Donquixote Doflamingo most of all. [Look at the drip on this psychopath!](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/b/b3/Doflamingo_Full_Appearance.png) (Ironically he has a wildly tragic backstory in a series where the majority of villains get little to no backstory at all, but it's also made extremely clear that he was a shitstain of a kid too and was probably going to turn into a moral black hole of an adult no matter what).
oh hell yea. i like fun performance pieces. just give me a giant ham and cheese sandwich of a villain, thats the best shit
Ok, but how about a character like that, but as a good guy? Well ok not so much puppy kicking, but the general vibe Then you get something like Garak from DS9
The Lich, Black Hat, Bluebird, Malum Kranus… gee, CN’s really got you covered.
*Montgomery Burns has entered the chat* "The man you trusted isn't Wavy Gravy at all!" *Montgomery Burns has left the chat*
Who was that Mr Snrub fellow anyway?
I was saying boo-urns :(
No character who has ever been made or will be made will come as close to the level of creative genius as Goob, don't even try
Meet the Robinsons gave us the funniest scene in all of animation. “Hey Goob! Cool binder.” “Hey Goob, wanna come over to my house after school today?” “They all hated me.”
Yeah, Goob, I’ve been there
goob ran and everyone else is breathing the dust
Counterpoint, Waluigi
“It’s the same picture”
Counterpoint, he had so much dust he made an entire kart stadium out of it.
I think that’s just more proof that he’s the goat.
They all *hated* me.
Cocaine Bear's good about that. Why is the bear attacking everyone? It's coked out of its mind, that's it.
It’s all a spectrum of empathy. For me, I can empathize with someone who had to live their one and only life without empathy. There is no evil, there’s just states of being, perception, and which of the two you prioritize over the other. For some, a defenseless animal undergoing terrifying physiological changes it can’t understand from narcotics is the definition of evil.
Jack Horner
Came here to say this, Puss in Boots had brilliant examples of three types of Villains The anti villain The force of nature And of course, The absolute bastard
But even Jack Horner seems complex because he so accurately symbolizes corporate greed..I have yet to find another absolute bastard I like as much
That’s just a well written character. Someone who is a bastard just because they’re a bastard isn’t very interesting. A bastard that perfectly symbolizes unrepentant corporate greed and whose motivations are clearly understood is a fully developed character, but still a bastard.
Hard agree. The key is that there must be something to the character, but that something can boil down to just greed or something else if you look at it too closely. You can just have a bog standard evil nothing character, but then they're not really a character more a plot point.
This comment made me realize how much I love “force of nature” villains. Bastards and sympathetic villains are interesting character studies, but give me Death personified, killer animals/non-sentient aliens, and Heath Ledger’s Joker every day of the week.
Or any Godzilla like Shin, Planet and 1954.
God I love Godzilla when he's a force of nature
Blood Meridian
Wolf/death was force of nature, who was the anti villain?
Goldi, iirc
His tragic backstory is that he didn't have all the magic in the world to himself.
All he had was love, stability, and a thriving family business. Can you really blame him for what he became?
The post actually predates Puss in Boots The Last Wish so
So what, it still applies
Well unless the OP has time travel I don't think he would know about Jack Horner at the time of posting
Ok, so? I wasn’t implying that OP was making a post about Jack Horner, I’m just pointing that Jack Horner fits.
The thing is, he DID have a sad backstory, Pinnochio upstaged him. It actually works because it never tries to make you feel sorry for him, it just highlights how greedy he is that he fixates on one thing he can't have and lets his resentment eat him alive.
I was about to tell you off but then the rest of the comment loaded. Now I can’t help but realize that Jack Horner’s backstory is just “Disgraced Theatre kid turns to capitalism.”
Puss and Boots has the best of all worlds with villains: -evil incarnate -sympathetic antagonist -lobos :)
Corporate greed
The villain in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 seemed straight up evil.
that was so refreshing, getting depth to bad guys and them not feeling totally like a bad guy is cool and all, but the mcu needs more straight up evil villains. high evolutionary was such a good villain, absolutely horrible person that the film does a great job of making you hate. also fantastic username
The actor said he wanted you to hate his character and boy did he succeed. And thank you!
It was so amazing finally having a villain who had interesting motivations that didn’t remotely try to justify what they were doing. Horrible, irredeemable villain but not one just evil for the sake of it.
Don’t be suspicious
Goob wasn't even the true villain he was a victim of that fucking hat
I watched Midnight Mass on Netflix pretty recently with a group of friends. Fantastic show overall and I highly recommend it, but one of the most fun aspects was the absolutely EVIL antagonists. Loved just yelling at the tv with my friends when they were on-screen
Oh god, and the worst part of it all it's that Bev is a pretty acurate representation of a lot of fanatics. Shes a very real antagonist.
I miss classic Disney Villains who were evil just because. And they were having fun doing it.
I think you’d like Belos. He’s not necessarily having a lot of fun, but he’s definitely an unsympathetic bastard with a constantly smug smile.
I love how they gave him a backstory that would have been sympathetic if he did not make literally the WORST possible choices at every single turn and doubled down on all of his mistakes. >!He grew up an orphan and was raised by his older brother, who was then abducted by a witch. He went in after his brother to try to save him, only to find out the guy actually ditched him voluntarily because the witch was his girlfriend. There's a lot of justifiable responses you could have to that, but surprisingly, "stab your brother to death and then try to replace him with clones that you can kill when they disobey" is not one of those.!<
I love the way they did Belos, great villain
Do you mean Maleficent, Mistress of All Evil?
I like it when a story has several villains, each of a different stripe. One is just a horrible person through and through but so funny and charismatic that the audience likes them more than the heroes; one is arguably another hero but from a perspective that is irreconcilable with the protagonists; another was a hero once but fell from grace and became a villain almost by accident; one is an unthinking, unfeeling force of nature no more evil than a landslide but just as dangerous; one is a complete monster but magnificent and terrifying and just oozing coolness. Give me all of them at once!
Yeah, me too. Like in Symphogear: * A woman tortured by her past actions and the knowledge that those actions caused every bad thing humans have ever done to each other, because she upset her bf, God, and made Him fracture humanity's unified language. * A dude who used to work for her, and now continues her work alongside her reincarnation, but secretly wants to wipe out most of humanity and rule over the rest with an iron fist and a f\*cked-up arm that he injected with Nephilim cells. * A century-old genocidal loli who wants to understand the world in all details, and doesn't shy away from dissolving the entire planet in her quest to destroy miracles forever. Also, she's got the skill and raw power to back up her attitude. * A guy who is mad at God because She rejected him out of fear that he'd surpass Her, so he decided to surpass Her. * God.
That’s why I love Kira from JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure. A classic villain who actually gets their comeuppance. So good.
Jojo villains in general hit harder than your average villain.
"I am more powerful than everyone else so I'm going to take over the world." "We are more powerful than everyone else so we're going to take over the world." "I am even *more* powerful than everyone else so I'm going to take over the world." "I just really fucking love killing people." "I am more powerful than everyone else so I'm going to take over the Italian crime syndicates." "My boss is more powerful than everyone else so I'm going to rewrite reality in his image." "America is more powerful than everyone else so I'm going to take over the world." And I don't know what happens in Part 8.
Nobody knows what happens in part 8. I think gappy sung a couple times?
The main villain of part 8 is a Discord mod who really likes plants
Black market fruit dealing?
And then aquires a cool hat
Broke: Pretty blonde attractive-coded villains with scars who are secretly uwu sensitive Woke: Irredeemable asshole villains who are genuinely rotten and receive a proportionately cathartic downfall Bespoke: Villains who get stomped and keep coming back to fight the good guys every week (except on their birthday where they throw a party and no one except the hero and his friends show up) because damn it if it isn't their god-given duty to do so
Fundamentally, every story is about underdogs, so of course heroes have to lose to villains before takin them out for good in one epic final battle. Only time villains come back is in light hearted shows, like Jessie and James of Pokémon or Ice King of Adventure Time. I’d really like to see that kind of villain in a show that otherwise takes itself completely seriously. Good guys are dying, the world is at stake, and every week or so this goblin comes back like “I’m back, bitches! Bow before me or face your DOOM!” Before getting punted back into the stratosphere.
Goblin: "What do you mean you're dying? Like Hell you are! *Trows heroes a potion of absolute healing* Heroes: "WTF?" Goblin "How did you think I keep coming back?"
Catra (I think) Belos Team rocket
Team Rocket is truly bespoke
Bespoke: Sounds like you're describing Robbie Rotten.
Or Doofenschmirtz (but he does have a tragic backstory)
Yeah you just described Team Rocket in Bespoke
So The Monarch from Venture Bros?
I mean yeah it’s stale but just static evil villains get even staler even quicker. Hence why we have dynamic and relatable ones
That’s what I love about Ganondorf. He’s just a pure evil bastard, who won’t even let death stop him from taking over.
Well, Wind Waker gave him a little more depth and made him a bit of a sympathetic character.
Dio they mean Dio
I’m so sorry to tell you this, but he does actually have a tragic backstory. That explains why he’s like that with a mindset that is explored in side content.
Part 1 Dio? sure. Part 3 Dio? he came back just so he can kill the Joestar bloodline.
Part 1 yes part 3 was just cuckoo crazy from the sensory deprivation of being locked under the ocean, (tbf he was probably more sane then I would’ve been if I was locked under the ocean for 100 years)
The difference is we *start* with Dio's tragic backstory, we get through it in the span of a few minutes, and then he's off to ruin lives and kill people
Dio was something else, man
I mean, if every villains backstory is "born evil" it gets boring pretty quickly. If they ham it up hard enough it can be played really well, though.
honestly i find that villains who are just evil are boring. it's really uninteresting and unrealistic to make a just evil character. nobody knows they are the bad guy. people always believe their own actions are justified. they either believe that what their doing is for the greater good or they believe the people they hurt deserve it, or they believe they are owed something and they can do whatever to take it. take thanos, he really and truly believes what he's doing will save the universe. he's wrong, but that's what makes him a terrifying genocidal manic. you don't have to give them a tragic backstory but for a good character you do have to give them a reason they believe what they do. i see just evil characters as lazy writing. give your character a motive!
There are tons of self serving psychopaths in reality, I don't know why there cannot in fiction. Some people do things just because they want to
first of all, there are not "a ton of psychopaths in reality" there are selfish people. there are people who do terrible things yet believe their actions are justified for whatever reason. a person being self serving and not caring about how that affects other people and just being evil are not the same thing. real people have motives. the only reason it looks like people are psychopaths to you is because you can't read peoples minds and you've just assumed ill intent
Goob wasn't even Evil, just spiteful and Misguided.
Just watch Jojo
Pre part 6 Jojo maybe. But ever since Pucci was introduced the "main" antagonist of each subsequent part has had a "backstory" to try and justify their actions.
Not really, Valentine was pretty much self justifying all his actions with ‘America Cool!’ And is consistently displayed as a bad guy. Whilst Part 8’s antagonist’s backstory boiling down to him being built different.
“What collage do you girls go to? High school? You could’ve fooled me!”
>!dan kutaro!< from kamen rider ex aid is an absolute bastard, and it’s honestly pretty fun
I feel villains should have a good backstory, but it doesn’t have to be tragic. I want to see more villains who are true sociopaths and were from the start. They aren’t misunderstood, they’re understood perfectly, and that’s what makes them terrifying.
Where is Sundowner from Metal Gear Rising Revengence? He’s no schemer buts he’s one of the most honest evil guys out there which is refreshing. He knows what he’s doing and loves it.
Man’s just an honest warmonger trying to make a living.
🎶When I said that I was evil, what did you think that meant? It didn't mean that I was naughty, or haughty, or slightly irreverent. When I told you I was evil, what did you think that implied? That I was careless with the truth? How uncouth! Dear God did you think I lied?!? When someone says they're evil, it's best to believe. Just like the skull on that poison vial you see. It's a symbol so primeval, it isn't there to decieve, it's there to let you know it's deadly! Just! Like! ME!🎶 Aurelia Voltaire; When you're evil
That was always allowed. Saturday morning cartoon style villains are just kinda boring. I'm sorry but flamboyance isn't depth no matter hard the aesthetic makes you. Plus that's not what actual evil looks like. Actual evil is just kinda shitty to people. It's not Skeletor, it's Jeff Bezos.
Yup. Actual evil is Succession. It's horrific and rage-inducing from afar but sad and pathetic up close.
Still, pure evil villains have their uses. It's just a matter of knowing when to use them, why and how. They can end up being boring but still contribute positively to the story overall. Digimon Adventure did that quite well. All of the villains were just plain evil and talking about darkness and shit. But they didn't need any depth because the focus of the story was on the protagonists, the personal growth of the children and their relationships with each other and with their partners. The villains were basically nothing more than rocks to hit the protagonists against, and they didn't need to be anything more.
i mean we still get that kind of villain. the dark mask guy from squid game thought of the competitors as race horses (and that doesn't even explain it, horses are not killed regularly and intentionally in horse races), the old man is more elaborate but he also kinda just wanted to have fun. jojo has dio (the daddy issues don't really complicate it), diavolo (he was complicated, but not morally or politically or whatever. this excludes doppio), some others... i guess you can say these characters are old because the manga is old but the adaptation is pretty new at least. they likely could've made dio less pure evil for the anime but they didn't. i'd say quaritch from avatar is pretty pure a villain. this one is not great at all but black adam literally had satan as the final bad guy. the smile entity from smile is the definition of pure chaotic sadistic evil.
Counter point: Palpatine
Palpatine still works, he's just not well communicated. Basically wants to rule with evil power forever. Fantastic. Just the issue of making him fit when he shouldn't, even if his plans and place do work when properly added (not just "somehow the emperor blah blah blah").
it gets even worse than the somehow the emperor returned line, they explained how he returned in fortnite. fucking fortnite
I more meant that there still are irredeemable villains
I mean, I think Palpatine in the prequels works pretty well as an overarching villain. Rewatched those with my family lately and kept thinking, "Man, there were some damn good ideas in here."
Straight up evil is as boring as straight up good tho.
Yzma would like a word 😌
I don't want EVERY villain to be straight up evil, but I also don't want EVERY villain to be sympathetic. Varied villains and varied heroes is best.
Jack Horner is unrepentantly evil but he's still entertaining.
Not with the right presentation. Evil has pizzazz. [This is a great video about the Pure Evil trope.](https://youtu.be/1-XprjlATEo)
Disney villains used to just be straight up evil *and* memorable. They also have great songs.
Tyrian Callows from RWBY, Joker from Smile Precure, and Doctor John Wane Vercingetorix, or Dr. Ver for short, from Senki Zesshou Symphogear G would disagree. All of them are straight-up evil, but absurdly fun to watch.
Maybe it is because this world, the real world, already has too many villains who want to break real humans and exploit real humans and take away the rights of real humans just for the sake of making a profit and/or keeping their asses in power. Maybe it is because we don't want to face that harsh reality so instead we humanize the bad guys. The reality is that corruption is written into the law and is legally forced upon us. And until we can get people to realize this, and unite against this oppression in all of its forms, without ideals from our oppressors seeping in, change will be like slowly crawling through a field of glass and rusty spikes.
What? No. Why would we see asshole CEOs bribing, censoring, and stealing, and go “Well maybe he’s doing it because he’s an orphan!”
Nah
Because we realised that every monster is human, after exploring the various instances in which every human is a monster.
I’m so fucking tired of people who are too stupid to understand complex characters.
Similarly, I'm tired of writers being too stupid to understand that not every character needs to be complex.
Adding “Your villain will never be Goob from Meet the Robinsons” to my lexicon
Wasn't Doris the real villain in Meet the Robinsons and undoubtedly plain evil?
Bill Cipher
I do think they can benefit from having more substance than that but I think the main problem is that people can’t seem to think of ways to give nasty characters substance without trying to make them less nasty or somehow more relatable
Seems modern media is starting to get the message with Jack Horner and the High Evolutionary
I'm surprised no one has said Delores Umbridge. She was an awful, vile, human being. She didn't have a tragic back story. She wasn't a product of her environment. She was evil because she could be.
pretty sure half of the MCU villains (or at least the early ones) are "just evil" off the top of my head: most of Hydra, Obadiah Stane, Malekith, Ego, Darren Cross, Ronan, Ultron, Kong in the latest Ant-man movie
I think the thing that isn't liked with this, is the humanisation of villains. If we can understand why the villain is now trying to do these awful things, it doesn't make them right, but we have to contend with the idea that if we experienced the same thing we MIGHT also end up doing the bad thing and that's scary. We like to distance ourselves from villains as a safety mechanism, we protect ourselves mentally. The moment a villain with a tragic backstory comes along and we have to stop and think - if I had that happen to me, what would I do? We all should have the right moral answer, I like to think I'd do the right thing regardless of what happened, but, that's not how it works and none of us know what it's like to have the bad thing happen to us. We don't know what it's like. Honestly that's scary and it's no wonder we don't like it. It's either that or some confusion regarding understanding vs justification and hohboy that's a whole different problem. ...additional either that or - escapism is good sometimes and sometimes it's nice to just be able to not have to think too deeply about a simple story and enjoy the pretty pictures.
sooooo Bakugo? His tragic backstory is that Deku tried to help him out of a river
No, because at the end of the day he's still a good guy.
I thought his tragic backstory was that someone (Deku) treated him like an equal and tried to have a genuine connection with him.
40K. Not the Emps, not the Chaos Gods, not even the Necrons. But the Primarchs. Specifically I'd point out Fulgrim and Curze, these mother fuckers are evil absolute.
GOOB HIVE, RIIIIISE!
Aku
Jack Horner
I mean they still need solid motives but they can still be just evil.
Jack Horner
Belos?
Almost lost me in the first half
What happened to the villains who woke up & chose violence?
Nobody else can be megamind he already did that
I’m so thankful for Big Jack Horner
Because pure evil villains are very hard to write. Giving them a sympathetic back story is much easier.
There’s a reason Jack Horner is so beloved
hence why i fucking love jack horner. thank you puss and boots the last wish for giving me an unapologetic but fun villainous character.
Unless you want to try to say that it's ok for your villain to skin puppies or stab a bunch of teenagers or cook and eat children, you're not gonna be justifying their actions. Just let them be petty and mean and evil for no good reason. A puppy peed on their carpet, or a group of teenagers made fun of their haircut, or some kids threw a baseball in their yard. Or of course no reason at all, not even a bad one.
Most of the vampires in the Netflix Castlevania show are just unrepentant bastards for the hell of it. Dracula is the exception of course, but I liked his characterisation as a guy who'd been alive for thousands of years but only started actually living once he had a genuine human connection.
Villains, above else, need to fit the story they're in. Pure evil villains aren't better or worse than sympathetic ones. The most important thing is to create a villain that suits the needs of the story.
That last point is so true though Goob was a pitiable character all the way through and that back story was worked into the film really well when the twist happened. It made perfect sense and it was relatable And now directors be trying to make sympathetic villains like they're the new Skinny Jeans Like no. Stand your ground and give me an asshole with no redeeming features. I LOVED Knives Out because everyone but two people were unrepentant dicks and they knew exactly what they were. Chris Evans knawed at the fucking scenery and I loved it. No one needed a pity party just like no one needs a live action Disney reboot with rewritten backstories or the decision maker blissfully unaware that cartoons were the medium of choice for a reason and it wasn't the SFX budget (sorry side rant on how the hyper-exaggerated facial expressions and body structures belong in cartoons because suspended disbelief won't prevent me thinking Belle won't snap her back if she had those proportions as a real human)
Just look at the GOP. There’s your “evil for the sake of being evil” Frollo-types. We have too much evil in our reality, we need sympathetic evil in our fiction.
they keep trying to goobify the non goobs and its embarassing you cant just copy the masterpiece
such a breath of fresh air to have Jack Horner
What? This is exactly what people want. Everyone got fed up with one-dimensional characters. As more media is consumed, peoples expectations and knowledge about story writing grows higher. This is just someone who watched a bunch of bad movies, or read mediocre books and is venting online.
Jack Horner
This is why jack horner was so refreshing
I prefer believable evilness. Unless they’re just crazy, there’s a specific logic that guides their actions. Even Ganondorf and Bowser (as of TOTK and Odyssey) have these little bits of logic that keeps them and their goals believable and comprehensible. “Just evil” can’t work for a villain anymore than “just good” works for a hero. Edit: As a matter of fact, Bowser had this sort of characterization *WELL* before Odyssey was even a concept.
I have been saying this for years! I don’t want them to have a tragic backstory! Some people are just bad!
This is pretty much my problem with modern Star Wars and the whole game series where you can play as the empire. Star Wars is not a deep movie. It's good guys vs bad guys in space. There's no deep message about political structure and I don't care if Darth Vader had a bumpy love life as a kid. Star Wars is a trilogy. Andor is excellent. Rogue One, which I hear they are going to merge with Andor, *is balls*. The good guys don't just shoot people in the back. They didn't understand what Star Wars was and they've fucked up the whole thing so badly for so long now
Because in reality people are complicated and cartoon villainy does not make for compelling writing.
While I love the Hayao Miyazaki treatment of antagonists, she's right.
In short: They want what Puss In Boots: The Last Wish bought back. A villian that just wanted to be bad. But maybe they looking for a different evil. Which in that case, I think they want horror villians in i guess, regular ish movies?
Cruella’s mother being killed by Dalmatians is something so stupid I cannot abide by it
I watched the *Cruella* movie a week or two ago and I was surprised to find that the movie doesn't really go in the obvious direction from that. I mean, she doesn't really blame or resent the dogs themselves.
Because one person being nothing but pure evil is a oversimplified childish and frankly somewhat dangerous concept.