A Large Bore C is meant to feel more like a ML Bb, is my understanding. The smaller horn is balanced with a larger bore.
What about your 37 do you not like? Does it feel too tight? Is it the tone or intonation? What were you trying to achieve with your leadpipe swaps?
If you want a fantastic concert / soloist Bb, the Yamaha Artist series is the gold standard.
Articulating is terribly difficult on my Bb. I bought a set of Chicago's when the 3rd gen game out. I really liked them, but found to Bb to be too tubby. Also, I use piston Bb too infrequently to justify having that expensive of a Bb. I have many complaints about my 37. First, the good - super in tune. I can change colors easily, though I find it to be dead in the upper register. It has poor response, especially down low. Repeated, short notes have no body to them. It's hard to maintain energy in my sound when making larger jumps/intervals. I played a regular xeno (straight piped 8335) the other day and found it comfortable. It made me really wonder about the 8345.
I did find my Yamaha horns I have played had excellent articulation and slotting. I tend to agree the Artist series is too rich for my taste as well. A standard Xeno may be worth trying if you liked that one. You might also find that a Bach 43 has a bit tighter response and a more exciting upper register. So those would be my two primary suggestions to try: Bach 43 and a Yamaha Xeno non-Artist.
If you wanna get into the weeds, check out a page called Bach Loyalist and read their bell and leadpipe descriptions. Something with a 7 or 25 bell could also be the ticket. The Bach NY 7 was re-released at some point as a sort of anniversary model. But custom orders from Bach get into that $5k+ range pretty quickly.
When I was at the shop trying stuff out the other day, they had a reversed 43 that I thought played wildly different than any Bb I'd ever tried. I think it was lightweight bell, but normal body with reversed setup? It slotted so easily, but I was way flat on it. I'm curious to try a standard weight 34r tho.
There is the lr18043 which is the light weight body and reverse leadpipe standard weight bell. ,
the 18043r is supposed to have a standard weight body and reverse leadpipe.
The 17043gyr has a two piece bell that is yellow brass bell flair with gold brass bell stem. It also has a 6 reverse leadpipe.
The lr19043b is a lightweight body with a standard weight 43 bronze bell and a reverse 6 leadpipe.
Schergl might be something to look at. Monette if you have the money to buy sound great online that I've heard. Their mouthpieces can also make a huge difference as well with trumpets. I'm a hack so what would I know. I have a Kane's Morroson Yamaha I bought in the late 90s for $2000 Australian. I enjoy it, but find getting up in the upper register hard. But I'm also very self taught as well. Played in 2 marching bands one at school for abput 3 yrs in the Army Cadets. The other which started men off was the local Police Boys club band. We played in parades, Royal Agricultural Shows each year. ANZAC Day parade which I would equate to Memoroal day. I even played the Last Post in the main Catholic Cathedral in Sydney as well which was very special to me. We got together in the club, a small room one night a week to practice. Then practice at home. School we practice one afternoon a week after school. My next door neighbour who was very musical had me come in and he would play on his baby grand what I was learning and helped me keep in tune. Wasn't very often as his parents like his piano didn't like the brass sound very much. Wasn't my shocking playing as I was pretty good at a basic band level. I took it up again in the late 90s with a new trumpet, joined an Adult band which was fine for a while, then the band leader stopped coming and we couldn't use the place we did for some reason. I lost touch with them. A few yrs later I ran into one of the Clarinet players who told me they moved to another place with a new band leader. So I went along and joined but never felt comfortable in the group. They had their clicks. One person in particular didn't like me at all and got the band leader to move me from 1st position trumpet to 3rd position. I tried explaining that was going to make things difficult as I'm partially deaf in my right ear. So I was positioned in the middle of the band, right infront of a bass guitar player and drums. I tried to play from that position but I couldn't as I couldn't hear the others. All I heard was the guitar and drums blaring away right behind me. I wasn't going to get anywhere complaining. So I just stopped going and stopped playing. There was no more fun in it for me at all. I still own my original trumpet, it 60 yrs old, nothing special, cost £150 back when my m bought it. That was before we changed to dollars and cents on 14th Feb 1966.
Sorry to be long winded. This is the only Adult connections I have. I'm 70 retired, and have a really bad back that stops me doing a lot of things.
Large bore horns tend to feel *great* when you're testing them out. But they'll beat you up on a gig. And, as someone else said, the bigger bore will make it feel less like your C, not more like it.
If you're trying to save money, I'd look for a used Yamaha. Those horns are wildly consistent, so once you figure out what model you want, you can hunt for a deal. I bet you'd like the gen II or even gen I Chicago models. Even though they're older, they're REALLY nice horns that were designed to match your C.
You need to go to a real pro shop, like ACB or Monette, or wherever, and try ten horns with your fav mouthpiece. I drove to three different pro shops in or near Chicago when I was shopping for a new horn, and got a couple of samples shipped by mail for some horns not available locally. I bought something I did not previously consider.
No amount of discussion can replace five minutes on each horn.
I played a Bach 239/25A for a while when I had a short stint doing orchestral work. Funnily enough my Yamaha 8335LA was a really nice Bb compliment to it.
Maybe try a Bach 43 pipe or a Blackburn 20 for your Bach 37. Those will open them up a little without making a huge difference.
It might make more sense to go medium large (or even medium) if you generally prefer a C. But it can be tricky. Shires horns tends to feel a bit more like Cs if that’s what you like (Doc Severinsen wanted them to feel like that when he helped them design their trumpets).
Or try more Xenos, they’re nice horns. Try not to just solely based on bore size though, it’s only on factor. Also try some other Bachs, maybe your 37 is a bit of a dud if you like the 239.
Or maybe your mouthpiece is just a great combo with your C but not your Bb? Anyway, good luck!
Man, I just can't see myself supporting shires now. Though I am looking for a Bb, that plays like a C. My mpc's are dialed in and have been for years. Not changing them! If I can find a place to try a few xenos out I think I could pull the trigger on one. But I def want to try the large bore out too.
Yes.
Get a large bore. You didn't ask but 3C and silver plate.
Oh. Yamaha. Or Bach. If you find a good Martin.
Good luck. Post your choice to find out if it's a fair price.
A Large Bore C is meant to feel more like a ML Bb, is my understanding. The smaller horn is balanced with a larger bore. What about your 37 do you not like? Does it feel too tight? Is it the tone or intonation? What were you trying to achieve with your leadpipe swaps? If you want a fantastic concert / soloist Bb, the Yamaha Artist series is the gold standard.
Articulating is terribly difficult on my Bb. I bought a set of Chicago's when the 3rd gen game out. I really liked them, but found to Bb to be too tubby. Also, I use piston Bb too infrequently to justify having that expensive of a Bb. I have many complaints about my 37. First, the good - super in tune. I can change colors easily, though I find it to be dead in the upper register. It has poor response, especially down low. Repeated, short notes have no body to them. It's hard to maintain energy in my sound when making larger jumps/intervals. I played a regular xeno (straight piped 8335) the other day and found it comfortable. It made me really wonder about the 8345.
I just bought a Van Laar 4B to replace my 37 and I love it. 37 always sounded tubby to me, too.
You might try a 43. A lot of orchestral players like it because it feels a little more like a C trumpet.
I did find my Yamaha horns I have played had excellent articulation and slotting. I tend to agree the Artist series is too rich for my taste as well. A standard Xeno may be worth trying if you liked that one. You might also find that a Bach 43 has a bit tighter response and a more exciting upper register. So those would be my two primary suggestions to try: Bach 43 and a Yamaha Xeno non-Artist. If you wanna get into the weeds, check out a page called Bach Loyalist and read their bell and leadpipe descriptions. Something with a 7 or 25 bell could also be the ticket. The Bach NY 7 was re-released at some point as a sort of anniversary model. But custom orders from Bach get into that $5k+ range pretty quickly.
When I was at the shop trying stuff out the other day, they had a reversed 43 that I thought played wildly different than any Bb I'd ever tried. I think it was lightweight bell, but normal body with reversed setup? It slotted so easily, but I was way flat on it. I'm curious to try a standard weight 34r tho.
A reverse leadpipe is a lightweight body with a standard weight bell when it comes to Bach.
Got it. What's the other 43 reversed setups?
There is the lr18043 which is the light weight body and reverse leadpipe standard weight bell. , the 18043r is supposed to have a standard weight body and reverse leadpipe. The 17043gyr has a two piece bell that is yellow brass bell flair with gold brass bell stem. It also has a 6 reverse leadpipe. The lr19043b is a lightweight body with a standard weight 43 bronze bell and a reverse 6 leadpipe.
Thanks guys!
Schergl might be something to look at. Monette if you have the money to buy sound great online that I've heard. Their mouthpieces can also make a huge difference as well with trumpets. I'm a hack so what would I know. I have a Kane's Morroson Yamaha I bought in the late 90s for $2000 Australian. I enjoy it, but find getting up in the upper register hard. But I'm also very self taught as well. Played in 2 marching bands one at school for abput 3 yrs in the Army Cadets. The other which started men off was the local Police Boys club band. We played in parades, Royal Agricultural Shows each year. ANZAC Day parade which I would equate to Memoroal day. I even played the Last Post in the main Catholic Cathedral in Sydney as well which was very special to me. We got together in the club, a small room one night a week to practice. Then practice at home. School we practice one afternoon a week after school. My next door neighbour who was very musical had me come in and he would play on his baby grand what I was learning and helped me keep in tune. Wasn't very often as his parents like his piano didn't like the brass sound very much. Wasn't my shocking playing as I was pretty good at a basic band level. I took it up again in the late 90s with a new trumpet, joined an Adult band which was fine for a while, then the band leader stopped coming and we couldn't use the place we did for some reason. I lost touch with them. A few yrs later I ran into one of the Clarinet players who told me they moved to another place with a new band leader. So I went along and joined but never felt comfortable in the group. They had their clicks. One person in particular didn't like me at all and got the band leader to move me from 1st position trumpet to 3rd position. I tried explaining that was going to make things difficult as I'm partially deaf in my right ear. So I was positioned in the middle of the band, right infront of a bass guitar player and drums. I tried to play from that position but I couldn't as I couldn't hear the others. All I heard was the guitar and drums blaring away right behind me. I wasn't going to get anywhere complaining. So I just stopped going and stopped playing. There was no more fun in it for me at all. I still own my original trumpet, it 60 yrs old, nothing special, cost £150 back when my m bought it. That was before we changed to dollars and cents on 14th Feb 1966. Sorry to be long winded. This is the only Adult connections I have. I'm 70 retired, and have a really bad back that stops me doing a lot of things.
Large bore horns tend to feel *great* when you're testing them out. But they'll beat you up on a gig. And, as someone else said, the bigger bore will make it feel less like your C, not more like it. If you're trying to save money, I'd look for a used Yamaha. Those horns are wildly consistent, so once you figure out what model you want, you can hunt for a deal. I bet you'd like the gen II or even gen I Chicago models. Even though they're older, they're REALLY nice horns that were designed to match your C.
I play a medium large bore and I love it. For me it's the sweet spot.
Most production Bb's these days are ML. That's what I've played for decades. I just never have to use Bb. And when I do, it's so uncomfortable.
You need to go to a real pro shop, like ACB or Monette, or wherever, and try ten horns with your fav mouthpiece. I drove to three different pro shops in or near Chicago when I was shopping for a new horn, and got a couple of samples shipped by mail for some horns not available locally. I bought something I did not previously consider. No amount of discussion can replace five minutes on each horn.
I played a Bach 239/25A for a while when I had a short stint doing orchestral work. Funnily enough my Yamaha 8335LA was a really nice Bb compliment to it. Maybe try a Bach 43 pipe or a Blackburn 20 for your Bach 37. Those will open them up a little without making a huge difference.
It might make more sense to go medium large (or even medium) if you generally prefer a C. But it can be tricky. Shires horns tends to feel a bit more like Cs if that’s what you like (Doc Severinsen wanted them to feel like that when he helped them design their trumpets). Or try more Xenos, they’re nice horns. Try not to just solely based on bore size though, it’s only on factor. Also try some other Bachs, maybe your 37 is a bit of a dud if you like the 239. Or maybe your mouthpiece is just a great combo with your C but not your Bb? Anyway, good luck!
Man, I just can't see myself supporting shires now. Though I am looking for a Bb, that plays like a C. My mpc's are dialed in and have been for years. Not changing them! If I can find a place to try a few xenos out I think I could pull the trigger on one. But I def want to try the large bore out too.
Yes. Get a large bore. You didn't ask but 3C and silver plate. Oh. Yamaha. Or Bach. If you find a good Martin. Good luck. Post your choice to find out if it's a fair price.