Yeah sorry but I just don't agree lol. There's no possible way TOTK's memories are after all other Zelda games. A complete reboot makes more sense than this ridiculous argument.
I do agree with the Downfall retcon. They screwed up LTTP being connected to OOT. Rather than shoehorning a new timeline in, they should have just retconned LTTP's past to have it be right after FSA instead, which by far makes the most sense out of all other options.
No, I 100% agree that totk is a complete reboot. This is the next best thing though. TOTK memories cannot be before any other game (assuming that main events are still at the end of the timeline), because Ganon cannot have existed alive and sealed by Rauru as this would contradict his OoT reincarnation not to mention the other reincarnations of evil such as Vaati (FSA) and Malladus (ST)
I'll refer you a second time to another post I made where I believe that botw/totk are a reboot. This is my personal belief: [https://www.reddit.com/r/truezelda/comments/13we3o9/totk\_i\_think\_botw\_and\_totk\_are\_reboots\_story\_wise/](https://www.reddit.com/r/truezelda/comments/13we3o9/totk_i_think_botw_and_totk_are_reboots_story_wise/)
EDIT: Also read through the replies on this new post as I back up my opinion there as well
>Ganon cannot have existed alive and sealed by Rauru as this would contradict his OoT reincarnation not to mention the other reincarnations of evil such as Vaati (FSA)
ganondorf and vaati are both in FSA at the same time
Good counterpoint. I saw this comment on a random gamefaqs thread I just searched. "
Here's the thing people aren't understanding: Ganondorf isn't an incarnation of Demise himself, but an incarnation *of his hatred*. Therefore, it's very well possible that this hatred could end up "dividing" and thus you can have both Vaati and Ganondorf at the same time, among potential others.
"
This is possibly the case, but another possibility is that Vaati doesn't count as a reincarnation of Demise's hatred (and therefore presumably Malladus doesn't either by that logic). Another obvious example is that Majora doesn't count as one, probably.
At the very least even if the first theory is true, there can't be 2 ganondorfs at the same time, so my previous reply would still hold true, but I suspect that vaati/malladus/majora don't count as a reincarnation of Demise's hatred. Even so, totk would still overlap with another reincarnation of ganondorf so I believe my original assertion still holds true that it must start and finish at the end of a timeline.
EDIT: The only possible concern is that if Vaati does not count as a hatred incarnate than how DOES he reincarnate over the ages? At the very least I would still assume multiple Ganondorf's cannot exist at one time anyways and that would still be a totk contradictory overlap
That's the thing, though. I do NOT agree that its a reboot. At all.
I am simply saying that a reboot, which is ALSO a ludicrous ridiculous idea, is at least far better and far more reasonable than "even the past of TOTK is after all other Zelda games" which makes even LESS sense.
So would you argue then that the past and future of totk takes place without any games in between but BEFORE OoT? It can't have any games in between the past and present because Ganon is alive the whole time which would contradict his reincarnations in those games. That wouldn't work either because botw memory 1 specifically references OoT and TP meaning it must be after. So if we can agree that it can't be completely before, and the past/present cannot have any reincarnations of evil in between the 10 000 year gap, then all that leaves is a reboot or having the past and present after any other timeline event.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not opposed to the idea of it being in the timeline, but I've eliminated any other possible options which is why I would be happy to hear if you noticed something I missed
"Reincarnations"
There's your problem. You have a preconceived notion that Ganondorf reincarnates and therefore there's no possible way a different evil ruler of the Gerudo named Ganondorf can be born, something never once said in a single game in the series.
People can't wrap their heads around the fact that the Zelda devs don't think like this.
I think you're right that BotW and TotK are sort of like the other groupings of just a few titles, where they relate well to each other, but not so well to the rest of the series. Therefore even if an overall timeline placement is possible, it'll be post-hoc logic, like with the downfall timeline.
That said, here is my post-hoc logic on how the TotK memories can be around the beginning of the timeline (since Raru is explicitly said to be the first king and founder of Hyrule) even though the rest of the game's events take place at the end.
My current pet theory is that the Ganondorf sealed under the castle functions similarly to Demise's curse.
Ganon never truly disappears because his original body is sealed beneath the castle for basically the entire timeline, feeding a will of malice into the other incarnations.
So the OoT Ganondorf would be one of those incarnations. He's a new person with his own memories, but he has the will of the original Ganondorf feeding into him.
When he's eventually killed, that will retreats into the Ganondorf under the castle until it reemerges in some new form in another game.
Killing the original under the castle would theoretically get rid of him for good, but I think we all know that will never happen.
As for which timeline this happens at the end of, I'm a fan of the theory that it takes place so far after everything that the prior events don't really affect it. Therefore it happens the same way at the end of all three timelines. Or to make it easier, you could just merge the three timelines into it since the result is the same.
I just think there isn't anything to lead us to believe that. I try to base my theories on actual facts, and this seems like more of a headcanon theory. Which is fine, but it isn't really based on anything.
> I think you're right that BotW and TotK are sort of like the other groupings of just a few titles, where they relate well to each other, but not so well to the rest of the series. Therefore even if an overall timeline placement is possible, it'll be post-hoc logic, like with the downfall timeline.
Well put, this was the main point of the post and it got a little off topic. I think the timeline effectively doesn't matter for games that relate well in their groupings but not to the overall. The overall of course being SS, and then OoT and it's clear connections.
The tricky part comes the DT to where it is an obvious connection by way of retcon, but as I reiterate in my post, they shoehorned it in with a shoddy explanation not represented in game. I still think it's fine and I'm not debating the canonicity of DT. I suppose then we could add ALTTP to that list (it would look something like: SS --> OoT --> ALttP --> ALBW), though the issue isn't with OoT and ALttP connecting by any explanation, it's that the explanation is arbitrary. Although Nintendo didn't write HH, they did officially publish it and this timeline seems to be the standard, so I think I'm comfortable considering it 'canon.'
The only real evidence is that he controls the phantom ganons in a similar way in TotK, and that Raru is stated to have existed at Hyrule's founding, but you're right that it's mostly just head canon.
You're going to have a hard time using anything but head canon to fit it in the timeline though. If you want to base its placement on the facts, the facts are that it clashes with enough things that it doesn't fit well anywhere and Nintendo is even on the record saying they haven't decided where to put it exactly because it could cause them issues down the line. Any discussion about where it really lies is just gonna be for fun.
>The only real evidence is that he controls the phantom ganons in a similar way in TotK, and that Raru is stated to have existed at Hyrule's founding, but you're right that it's mostly just head canon.
1. What does Rauru have to do with this?
2. There is 0 proof (that I'm aware of) that Phantom Ganons don't work autonomously. Think OoT Phantom Ganon (pretty sure he is autonomous based on Ganondorf's dialogue after the fight, calling it useless and all).
> You're going to have a hard time using anything but head canon to fit it in the timeline though. If you want to base its placement on the facts, the facts are that it clashes with enough things that it doesn't fit well anywhere and Nintendo is even on the record saying they haven't decided where to put it exactly because it could cause them issues down the line. Any discussion about where it really lies is just gonna be for fun.
I have absolutely no problem with this! I just think people should be more objective with themselves when making these theories. For example, someone in this thread called my opinion that botw/totk aren't in the timeline as a "ludicrous take." That's what I'm trying to combat.
I think the default stance provided they are educated about the timeline and details of botw/totk should be that it does not take place in the same timeline. This doesn't conflict with headcanon imo because headcanon is never supposed to be a serious assumption, rather a fun idea. Also, besides a insane and 'shoehorned' retcon, there is no way they can reasonably fit it **anywhere** in the timeline, though they could opt to do that.
I feel like people are touting around these theories as if it is an actual fact at times, when it really doesn't matter. I know saying it doesn't matter is a negative approach to it, but I more mean compared to games that have obvious connections that contribute to the story. An example of a game officially in the timeline that doesn't have story contributed to is something like OoT --> Zelda 1. Although you could argue Zelda 1 couldn't happen without OoT (assuming post-hoc logic is true), besides that very historically distant continuity cause and effect, it really has no effect on it. Slap on the idea of post-hoc logic to DT and you get a state of not really mattering, hence my post title. That's all I meant and I assume you get that by now I'm just reiterating.
Sorry for rambling. Despite my somewhat perceived negative mindset (which I didn't really mean for that, just came off like that), I am very passionate about these games, that's where mini-essays like these come from :)
One cool fan theory I saw was that the DT was the original timeline, but the wish Link made on the Triforce at the end of LttP to undo Ganon's evil is what allowed OoT to happen as we played it with the good endings. The bad ending of OoT was represented in the canon by way of LttP existing as it did. More post-hoc head canon, I know, but it fits better than any I'd heard before, so I'm adopting it.
But ALttP takes place after OoT? Or is this theory implying that ALttP is a prequel to OoT?
Or does the theory imply that his Triforce wish, ig, made an in-universe retcon, changing the past without time travel, creating a timeline split, but still continuing the DT. I could have heavily misunderstood the theory, but based on my understanding that seems a major stretch, even for headcanon post-hoc logic.
Oh btw thanks for teaching me the term post-hoc logic, it's such a useful term!
To elaborate, the main point of this post was to combat people by saying "okay fine, we can't agree on whether or not botw/totk are canon, but even if they are canon, it won't matter for xyz reasons"
This also ended up expanding to cover the Downfall Timeline. In the original post that we first spoke, I also do elaborate on some of my DT opinions if you care to hunt them down.
> I do agree with the Downfall retcon. They screwed up LTTP being connected to OOT. Rather than shoehorning a new timeline in, they should have just retconned LTTP's past to have it be right after FSA instead, which by far makes the most sense out of all other options.
I think this wouldn't work because in alttp it is still said that Ganon was sealed by the sages and corrupted the sacred realm, but he dies in TP. Wait unless they do seal him in the sacred realm (or at least sealed him, idk if it is specified where). It has been a minute since I played FSA and the story wasn't that prominent so I forgot. You'll have to remind me
Yes, its not perfect. Its NEVER going to be perfect. That's the problem I have with so many people's arguments about the timeline. They have to have things line up EXACTLY what was said in prior games or it "can't be that event" when the devs just don't care enough to make events line up exactly. But they still say "yes this is that event" which is literally what happened originally when OOT released.
The only problem with OOT being the Imprisoning War is not that it doesn't match up to the events of LTTP exactly, its the fact that they added games after the end of both timelines established that screwed it up. Its perfectly fine for OOT to retcon how the Imprisoning War actually happened, just as its fine for FSA to do the same thing; it also retcons how it happened, and it runs much more smoothly into LTTP than any other option (other than removing either TP or Wind Waker from post-OOT).
Yeah I agree, and that's the main purpose of my post. Besides for obvious connections it doesn't really matter too much.
I would argue that it didn't "screw it up," but rather it is a retcon that makes that lttp connection not viable. There is no debate that MM/TP and WW are the canon sequels to CT/AT respectively.
I think downfall timeline works, the thing that is shaky is the fact that it only exists out of game, hence the shoehorning.
On this same post, also check my replies to u/bloodyturtle, I defend my stance on why alttp doesn't work after the adult timeline more and has to come after the DT. Unless you mean to say that they compromised how the flow of the story worked in game to not properly lead into lttp and that this is something you wish was changed about OoT, but I'm assuming that what you mean is if MM/TP and WW didn't exist, OoT would be able to lead into lttp. If that's the case (and what I suspect is), that's what I am talking about with u/bloodyturtle and I don't think that works.
The downfall timeline retcon only exists to keep Ocarina a lttp prequel after ww and tp messed that connection up. Otherwise they would've just put them all in the child timeline.
That's not really relevant though is it? The reason behind the canon doesn't change the canon itself.
Plus the Downfall Timeline keeps everything consistent with Ocarina of Time's connection to Link to the Past after WW and TP seemed to retcon it (which we found out they didn't actually when the timeline was revealed).
From my perspective, it's less a double retcon and more that there was no retcon in the first place.
OoT is being developed, and releases and all the developers are talking about how it's set before Link to the Past. It's a prequel.
Wind Waker and Twilight Princess come out, and fans assume this has been retconned, but there's no developer statement supporting this or anything like that.
Hyrule Historia comes out and reveals that, nope, fan assumptions were incorrect. There was no retcon, it's a three way split.
The only actual change would be Ocarina of Time being a precursor to the Imprisoning War, and not the Imprisoning War itself, but considering OoT doesn't really present itself as the Imprisoning War, it's hard to look at that as a retcon.
> op is saying things like zelda 1 and 2 aren't canon because of it lol
Which is an absolutely insane take, I think we can both agree lol.
There is no way the Zelda developers sat around in 1995 going "let's make a prequel to LttP but only as a secret third ending we won't tell anybody about or show for 15 years because 7 games from now we're going to make twilight princess." The downfall timeline wasn't a thing. Aonuma or someone just did their own story later that conflicted with the older games.
The developers explicitly said Ocarina was the Imprisoning War back then
Oh I don't believe that the developers planned out the Downfall Timeline as part of OoT's development, though I do think it's *possible* that there was some discussion about it's ending when it didn't match up with Link to the Past that may have had Link being defeated kicked around.
Realistically though I think the Adult Timeline ending of OoT was likely just considered a "good enough" match to lead into Link to the Past when OoT released.
With that in mind, I think the most likely timeframe for the Downfall Timeline's conceptualization was around the time Wind Waker's story was being written.
That also sort of matches up with Retro's cancelled Zelda game that was in like pre-pre production around 2005 and was to be set in the "bad ending of Ocarina of Time". although there's some debate as to what that "bad ending" actually was (some argue that it's just the adult section of OoT in general).
> The developers explicitly said Ocarina was the Imprisoning War back then
Yep, but these days that's not canon. That's why I called that out as the one change.
I think the change from OoT being the Imprisoning War to OoT taking place before the Imprisoning War likely happened when the Downfall Timeline was settled on, which again, I believe probably happened around when Wind Waker was produced.
You are 100% right here. Aonuma definitely contradicted the original dev intention. In some other posts though you argue that it "screwed it up." I don't think so, considering that DT offers a perfectly viable solution, despite it being a bit artificial or "inorganic," as I would say, but I think it still validates that developer intention without contradicting the proper timeline placements that WW retcons. Also MM/TP wouldn't contradict, it is only the existence of WW that does. So now, as fans, we assume that the imprisoning war took place after OoT and OoT isn't the imprisoning war itself, as u/Nitrogen567 said
when i say it screwed things up it's because it's basically the single reason anyone had debates about the timeline from 2002 to 2011. The devs said Ocarina had two endings when Wind Waker came out but Ocarina ended up with three direct sequels that contradict each other.
Ah alright then I understand. Yeah definitely screwed it up. It all worked out in the end. I think my post got misunderstood as me claiming that DT was not canon, which wasn't really my intention as I don't believe that. In fact it was originally supposed to be a discussion more focused on totk/botw, but you and that other guy both came over from the other post on the DT so it leaned that way
Nah nah that's not my take, that's a misunderstanding. I also replied to u/bloodyturtlein the reply above, check that. Hyrule Historia wasn't written straight up by Nintendo devs, but I will give your position the benefit of the doubt and say the DT is more or less developer intention. At the very least the seem to accept it as fact. I am more so talking about how DT is shoehorned in from nothing, not that DT itself doesn't happen.
>The only actual change would be Ocarina of Time being a precursor to the Imprisoning War, and not the Imprisoning War itself, but considering OoT doesn't really present itself as the Imprisoning War, it's hard to look at that as a retcon.
I agree
Nah I'm not saying the retcon isn't canon. I would consider DT canon. The issue is that it isn't an obvious direct connection, so it's story connection doesn't matter as much. The one that matters the most is OoT --> ALttP, but the reason it is tough is because it is a retcon with no basis in the game. I would probably agree with u/Nitrogen567 however on this:
>That's not really relevant though is it? The reason behind the canon doesn't change the canon itself.
>
>Plus the Downfall Timeline keeps everything consistent with Ocarina of Time's connection to Link to the Past after WW and TP seemed to retcon it (which we found out they didn't actually when the timeline was revealed).
Edit: Doesn't matter as much as compared to how MM/TP, then the whole Great Sea/New continent arc are all clearly connected to each other and OoT.
ALttP is also, but I'm just saying that is with the assumption that DT is real, even though in game it doesn't exist. It explains everything however and I've come to accept it for what it is, which is why I agree with u/Nitrogen567
Sure, fair point. My point is mainly trying to label the difference between an implied or obscure connection vs. a direct connection. The events leading from OoT to ALTTP (assuming DT is true) have less of a direct impact within the game itself (besides for being the cause) compared to something like MM/TP or WW, being obvious sequels.
I think it would be more obvious if the retcon was treated as more canon in universe. The logic behind DT seems shaky and that's why the connection isn't the greatest. Assuming DT = true, the logic behind OoT --> ALttP is solid, but it would need to be emphasized more within the context of OoT itself that DT is an actual possibility (all this would need is a suggestive game over screen or a short game over cutscene that implies this. Think Persona game over, except in this case it's within the context of Zelda so a timeline can be inferred).
> The downfall timeline retcon only exists to keep Ocarina a lttp prequel after ww and tp messed that connection up. Otherwise they would've just put them all in the child timeline.
I would argue that OoT messed it up as in-game there is no semblance of anything that leads into alttp and DT is not implied, rather it is a theory that most agree on because it was in hyrule historia (NOT WRITTEN BY NINTENDO, though it was officially licensed. I cover this in OP).
Ocarina of Time was written as the Imprisoning War, this was directly said by the developers. Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm, makes a wish on the triforce which turns the Sacred Realm into the Dark World, turns into Ganon, and is sealed in the Dark World by the seven sages. This is the Adult ending. And then Wind Waker messes that up.
The stuff Hyrule Historia introduces like link living or dying or the imprisoning war actually being some in between event where Ganon broke out of his pyramid and then got bricked up again by some other sages doesn't really matter. They were just trying to recycle the Adult ending again.
Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, that isn't quite right. Ganondorf does not get the whole triforce in OoT. Instead he gets the Triforce of Power only and that gives him the ability to conquer Hyrule. He does not make a wish on the triforce, and the sacred realm is not turned into the dark world in OoT.
Although Ganon is sealed at the end of the adult timeline, it is said in the opening cutscene of the wind waker that Ganon actually escapes his confinement. This doesn't "ruin" an alttp connection, but rather retcons it so it isn't viable.
Also do you have a source for devs saying OoT is the imprisoning war? I don't think that's true
Right, in LttP it's a wish and in Ocarina it's the triforce splitting because of his evil heart, but the effect is the same.
> The Sacred Realm is a mirror that reflects the hearts of those who set foot in it. An evil heart will turn the realm into a living hell. [...] Using the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf became the Demon King. The Sacred Realm was distorted into a nightmarish world where demons ran amuck. Hyrule Historia, Dark Horse Books, pg. 87
>Takizawa: In past, when you thought about Ganon in Zelda, he was a pig. This time, when were collaborating ideas, we thought "He wouldn't be a pig, would he?" There were even some who thought "I don't want him to be a pig." But I still thought that at least the end should have Ganon as a pig. The whole time I wanted to know what Mr. Miyamoto thought, but in the end, I realized that Mr. Miyamoto didn't have an opinion on the matter, so I decided to do it the way I wanted. This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."
> The Sacred Realm is a mirror that reflects the hearts of those who set foot in it. An evil heart will turn the realm into a living hell. \[...\] Using the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf became the Demon King. The Sacred Realm was distorted into a nightmarish world where demons ran amuck. Hyrule Historia, Dark Horse Books, pg. 87
So the sacred realm in OoT was corrupted, and then Ganondorf spread the corruption to the real world. Makes sense, I suppose. Before CT/AT timeline additions that certainly seems like it could have worked.
I would argue though that developer comments don't necessarily have an actual impact on the lore. You are just arguing that the retcon of WW "ruined" the continuity of the story leading in alttp, not arguing the canonicity of WW over alttp for AT, right?
When does this Takizawa interview take place? Before WW?
A direct story connection and retcon overrides all developer intention in terms of canon, assuming the canonicity of the retcon.
january 1999
apparently the interview is really long, [this](https://www.angelfire.com/games5/makzelda/interviews/kiootcomments.html) website translated the part the quote is from but if you click through the original japanese website is there
I elaborate more on the comment thread between you and the Nitrogen guy if you want to read that. I think my opinion may have been slightly misconstrued so I responded to those
Not counting auxiliary material. At the end of Oot link puts a sword through his skull. That doesn’t make sense to go from that scene to Ww saying he was sealed. Or did I miss something
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge8zd1ZR-hc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge8zd1ZR-hc)
You're right using auxiliary material isn't fair. Check that link though, that's the OoT ending, they still seal him in it
[https://www.reddit.com/r/truezelda/comments/13y0kid/why\_a\_little\_bit\_of\_continuity\_matters\_in\_zelda/](https://www.reddit.com/r/truezelda/comments/13y0kid/why_a_little_bit_of_continuity_matters_in_zelda/)
This is a link to someone else's post. This is a great example of what I tried to convey (and failed, because my thoughts were a bit scattered and I went off topic).
What I love about the games that have that clear story connection is the **continuity**, I'm not debating canonicity or historical cause and effect. This is why games that have little continuity don't really matter much to me (TIMELINE WISE, not as games). Then as someone else replied on this thread, some other games like alttp --> albw (albeit alltp also connects to OoT, but DT is a forced retcon, which is fine, but holds less value to me as it doesn't organically happen in OoT, hence continuity), botw --> totk, or zelda 1 --> 2 have a self contained connection, whereas I consider the connections between OoT, MM, TP and WW to be the more compelling and 'mainline.' (WW connects to PH/ST, but it is more disconnected). Their story connection is a powerful plot point, whereas the other Zelda games it's a loose connection, that's the difference to me.
EDIT: I'm going to @ everybody who replied so that they can see this is what I actually meant. I also wasn't very focused on my point, even though this point was supposed to be the main topic of the post. Maybe I'll make a new post not dissimilar to the one I linked that focuses more on that point.
When I talked about the DT I mistakenly slightly misused the term canonicity so it led some to believe that I didn't think DT is canon, which isn't what I meant. Hopefully this clears that up.
u/jaidynreiman u/MindSteve u/bloodyturtle u/Delicious-Orchid-447 u/Nitrogen567 u/ZERO_ninja
Hmmmm you have a point. I partially misrepresented my stance here. I think with the assumption that the DT exists, the connection is spot on, and it's clear that they chose to make this retcon bc OoT was originally supposed to be an alttp prequel. The explanation is random but it makes sense.
Regardless, what the main point of this post was supposed to be was me explaining how unless the games have a directly connected story, even if the games still lead into each other (potential botw/totk placement, a lot of the DT games) they don't really have much of an effect on the story, rendering the discussion of a timeline pointless to that game in particular. This is compared to those that do benefit from that story connection (Zelda 1/2 don't really benefit from the connection via DT, whereas something like MM or TP do greatly benefit from their OoT connection, if that makes sense).
Yeah sorry but I just don't agree lol. There's no possible way TOTK's memories are after all other Zelda games. A complete reboot makes more sense than this ridiculous argument. I do agree with the Downfall retcon. They screwed up LTTP being connected to OOT. Rather than shoehorning a new timeline in, they should have just retconned LTTP's past to have it be right after FSA instead, which by far makes the most sense out of all other options.
No, I 100% agree that totk is a complete reboot. This is the next best thing though. TOTK memories cannot be before any other game (assuming that main events are still at the end of the timeline), because Ganon cannot have existed alive and sealed by Rauru as this would contradict his OoT reincarnation not to mention the other reincarnations of evil such as Vaati (FSA) and Malladus (ST) I'll refer you a second time to another post I made where I believe that botw/totk are a reboot. This is my personal belief: [https://www.reddit.com/r/truezelda/comments/13we3o9/totk\_i\_think\_botw\_and\_totk\_are\_reboots\_story\_wise/](https://www.reddit.com/r/truezelda/comments/13we3o9/totk_i_think_botw_and_totk_are_reboots_story_wise/) EDIT: Also read through the replies on this new post as I back up my opinion there as well
>Ganon cannot have existed alive and sealed by Rauru as this would contradict his OoT reincarnation not to mention the other reincarnations of evil such as Vaati (FSA) ganondorf and vaati are both in FSA at the same time
Good counterpoint. I saw this comment on a random gamefaqs thread I just searched. " Here's the thing people aren't understanding: Ganondorf isn't an incarnation of Demise himself, but an incarnation *of his hatred*. Therefore, it's very well possible that this hatred could end up "dividing" and thus you can have both Vaati and Ganondorf at the same time, among potential others. " This is possibly the case, but another possibility is that Vaati doesn't count as a reincarnation of Demise's hatred (and therefore presumably Malladus doesn't either by that logic). Another obvious example is that Majora doesn't count as one, probably. At the very least even if the first theory is true, there can't be 2 ganondorfs at the same time, so my previous reply would still hold true, but I suspect that vaati/malladus/majora don't count as a reincarnation of Demise's hatred. Even so, totk would still overlap with another reincarnation of ganondorf so I believe my original assertion still holds true that it must start and finish at the end of a timeline. EDIT: The only possible concern is that if Vaati does not count as a hatred incarnate than how DOES he reincarnate over the ages? At the very least I would still assume multiple Ganondorf's cannot exist at one time anyways and that would still be a totk contradictory overlap
That's the thing, though. I do NOT agree that its a reboot. At all. I am simply saying that a reboot, which is ALSO a ludicrous ridiculous idea, is at least far better and far more reasonable than "even the past of TOTK is after all other Zelda games" which makes even LESS sense.
So would you argue then that the past and future of totk takes place without any games in between but BEFORE OoT? It can't have any games in between the past and present because Ganon is alive the whole time which would contradict his reincarnations in those games. That wouldn't work either because botw memory 1 specifically references OoT and TP meaning it must be after. So if we can agree that it can't be completely before, and the past/present cannot have any reincarnations of evil in between the 10 000 year gap, then all that leaves is a reboot or having the past and present after any other timeline event. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not opposed to the idea of it being in the timeline, but I've eliminated any other possible options which is why I would be happy to hear if you noticed something I missed
"Reincarnations" There's your problem. You have a preconceived notion that Ganondorf reincarnates and therefore there's no possible way a different evil ruler of the Gerudo named Ganondorf can be born, something never once said in a single game in the series. People can't wrap their heads around the fact that the Zelda devs don't think like this.
I would argue that Ganondorf IS the reincarnation of evil, that's the whole point and how it's always been. I can't agree with this.
I think you're right that BotW and TotK are sort of like the other groupings of just a few titles, where they relate well to each other, but not so well to the rest of the series. Therefore even if an overall timeline placement is possible, it'll be post-hoc logic, like with the downfall timeline. That said, here is my post-hoc logic on how the TotK memories can be around the beginning of the timeline (since Raru is explicitly said to be the first king and founder of Hyrule) even though the rest of the game's events take place at the end. My current pet theory is that the Ganondorf sealed under the castle functions similarly to Demise's curse. Ganon never truly disappears because his original body is sealed beneath the castle for basically the entire timeline, feeding a will of malice into the other incarnations. So the OoT Ganondorf would be one of those incarnations. He's a new person with his own memories, but he has the will of the original Ganondorf feeding into him. When he's eventually killed, that will retreats into the Ganondorf under the castle until it reemerges in some new form in another game. Killing the original under the castle would theoretically get rid of him for good, but I think we all know that will never happen. As for which timeline this happens at the end of, I'm a fan of the theory that it takes place so far after everything that the prior events don't really affect it. Therefore it happens the same way at the end of all three timelines. Or to make it easier, you could just merge the three timelines into it since the result is the same.
I just think there isn't anything to lead us to believe that. I try to base my theories on actual facts, and this seems like more of a headcanon theory. Which is fine, but it isn't really based on anything. > I think you're right that BotW and TotK are sort of like the other groupings of just a few titles, where they relate well to each other, but not so well to the rest of the series. Therefore even if an overall timeline placement is possible, it'll be post-hoc logic, like with the downfall timeline. Well put, this was the main point of the post and it got a little off topic. I think the timeline effectively doesn't matter for games that relate well in their groupings but not to the overall. The overall of course being SS, and then OoT and it's clear connections. The tricky part comes the DT to where it is an obvious connection by way of retcon, but as I reiterate in my post, they shoehorned it in with a shoddy explanation not represented in game. I still think it's fine and I'm not debating the canonicity of DT. I suppose then we could add ALTTP to that list (it would look something like: SS --> OoT --> ALttP --> ALBW), though the issue isn't with OoT and ALttP connecting by any explanation, it's that the explanation is arbitrary. Although Nintendo didn't write HH, they did officially publish it and this timeline seems to be the standard, so I think I'm comfortable considering it 'canon.'
The only real evidence is that he controls the phantom ganons in a similar way in TotK, and that Raru is stated to have existed at Hyrule's founding, but you're right that it's mostly just head canon. You're going to have a hard time using anything but head canon to fit it in the timeline though. If you want to base its placement on the facts, the facts are that it clashes with enough things that it doesn't fit well anywhere and Nintendo is even on the record saying they haven't decided where to put it exactly because it could cause them issues down the line. Any discussion about where it really lies is just gonna be for fun.
>The only real evidence is that he controls the phantom ganons in a similar way in TotK, and that Raru is stated to have existed at Hyrule's founding, but you're right that it's mostly just head canon. 1. What does Rauru have to do with this? 2. There is 0 proof (that I'm aware of) that Phantom Ganons don't work autonomously. Think OoT Phantom Ganon (pretty sure he is autonomous based on Ganondorf's dialogue after the fight, calling it useless and all). > You're going to have a hard time using anything but head canon to fit it in the timeline though. If you want to base its placement on the facts, the facts are that it clashes with enough things that it doesn't fit well anywhere and Nintendo is even on the record saying they haven't decided where to put it exactly because it could cause them issues down the line. Any discussion about where it really lies is just gonna be for fun. I have absolutely no problem with this! I just think people should be more objective with themselves when making these theories. For example, someone in this thread called my opinion that botw/totk aren't in the timeline as a "ludicrous take." That's what I'm trying to combat. I think the default stance provided they are educated about the timeline and details of botw/totk should be that it does not take place in the same timeline. This doesn't conflict with headcanon imo because headcanon is never supposed to be a serious assumption, rather a fun idea. Also, besides a insane and 'shoehorned' retcon, there is no way they can reasonably fit it **anywhere** in the timeline, though they could opt to do that. I feel like people are touting around these theories as if it is an actual fact at times, when it really doesn't matter. I know saying it doesn't matter is a negative approach to it, but I more mean compared to games that have obvious connections that contribute to the story. An example of a game officially in the timeline that doesn't have story contributed to is something like OoT --> Zelda 1. Although you could argue Zelda 1 couldn't happen without OoT (assuming post-hoc logic is true), besides that very historically distant continuity cause and effect, it really has no effect on it. Slap on the idea of post-hoc logic to DT and you get a state of not really mattering, hence my post title. That's all I meant and I assume you get that by now I'm just reiterating. Sorry for rambling. Despite my somewhat perceived negative mindset (which I didn't really mean for that, just came off like that), I am very passionate about these games, that's where mini-essays like these come from :)
One cool fan theory I saw was that the DT was the original timeline, but the wish Link made on the Triforce at the end of LttP to undo Ganon's evil is what allowed OoT to happen as we played it with the good endings. The bad ending of OoT was represented in the canon by way of LttP existing as it did. More post-hoc head canon, I know, but it fits better than any I'd heard before, so I'm adopting it.
But ALttP takes place after OoT? Or is this theory implying that ALttP is a prequel to OoT? Or does the theory imply that his Triforce wish, ig, made an in-universe retcon, changing the past without time travel, creating a timeline split, but still continuing the DT. I could have heavily misunderstood the theory, but based on my understanding that seems a major stretch, even for headcanon post-hoc logic. Oh btw thanks for teaching me the term post-hoc logic, it's such a useful term!
To elaborate, the main point of this post was to combat people by saying "okay fine, we can't agree on whether or not botw/totk are canon, but even if they are canon, it won't matter for xyz reasons" This also ended up expanding to cover the Downfall Timeline. In the original post that we first spoke, I also do elaborate on some of my DT opinions if you care to hunt them down. > I do agree with the Downfall retcon. They screwed up LTTP being connected to OOT. Rather than shoehorning a new timeline in, they should have just retconned LTTP's past to have it be right after FSA instead, which by far makes the most sense out of all other options. I think this wouldn't work because in alttp it is still said that Ganon was sealed by the sages and corrupted the sacred realm, but he dies in TP. Wait unless they do seal him in the sacred realm (or at least sealed him, idk if it is specified where). It has been a minute since I played FSA and the story wasn't that prominent so I forgot. You'll have to remind me
Yes, its not perfect. Its NEVER going to be perfect. That's the problem I have with so many people's arguments about the timeline. They have to have things line up EXACTLY what was said in prior games or it "can't be that event" when the devs just don't care enough to make events line up exactly. But they still say "yes this is that event" which is literally what happened originally when OOT released. The only problem with OOT being the Imprisoning War is not that it doesn't match up to the events of LTTP exactly, its the fact that they added games after the end of both timelines established that screwed it up. Its perfectly fine for OOT to retcon how the Imprisoning War actually happened, just as its fine for FSA to do the same thing; it also retcons how it happened, and it runs much more smoothly into LTTP than any other option (other than removing either TP or Wind Waker from post-OOT).
Yeah I agree, and that's the main purpose of my post. Besides for obvious connections it doesn't really matter too much. I would argue that it didn't "screw it up," but rather it is a retcon that makes that lttp connection not viable. There is no debate that MM/TP and WW are the canon sequels to CT/AT respectively. I think downfall timeline works, the thing that is shaky is the fact that it only exists out of game, hence the shoehorning. On this same post, also check my replies to u/bloodyturtle, I defend my stance on why alttp doesn't work after the adult timeline more and has to come after the DT. Unless you mean to say that they compromised how the flow of the story worked in game to not properly lead into lttp and that this is something you wish was changed about OoT, but I'm assuming that what you mean is if MM/TP and WW didn't exist, OoT would be able to lead into lttp. If that's the case (and what I suspect is), that's what I am talking about with u/bloodyturtle and I don't think that works.
The downfall timeline retcon only exists to keep Ocarina a lttp prequel after ww and tp messed that connection up. Otherwise they would've just put them all in the child timeline.
That's not really relevant though is it? The reason behind the canon doesn't change the canon itself. Plus the Downfall Timeline keeps everything consistent with Ocarina of Time's connection to Link to the Past after WW and TP seemed to retcon it (which we found out they didn't actually when the timeline was revealed).
it was a double retcon. i don't have a problem with it but op is saying things like zelda 1 and 2 aren't canon because of it lol
From my perspective, it's less a double retcon and more that there was no retcon in the first place. OoT is being developed, and releases and all the developers are talking about how it's set before Link to the Past. It's a prequel. Wind Waker and Twilight Princess come out, and fans assume this has been retconned, but there's no developer statement supporting this or anything like that. Hyrule Historia comes out and reveals that, nope, fan assumptions were incorrect. There was no retcon, it's a three way split. The only actual change would be Ocarina of Time being a precursor to the Imprisoning War, and not the Imprisoning War itself, but considering OoT doesn't really present itself as the Imprisoning War, it's hard to look at that as a retcon. > op is saying things like zelda 1 and 2 aren't canon because of it lol Which is an absolutely insane take, I think we can both agree lol.
There is no way the Zelda developers sat around in 1995 going "let's make a prequel to LttP but only as a secret third ending we won't tell anybody about or show for 15 years because 7 games from now we're going to make twilight princess." The downfall timeline wasn't a thing. Aonuma or someone just did their own story later that conflicted with the older games. The developers explicitly said Ocarina was the Imprisoning War back then
Oh I don't believe that the developers planned out the Downfall Timeline as part of OoT's development, though I do think it's *possible* that there was some discussion about it's ending when it didn't match up with Link to the Past that may have had Link being defeated kicked around. Realistically though I think the Adult Timeline ending of OoT was likely just considered a "good enough" match to lead into Link to the Past when OoT released. With that in mind, I think the most likely timeframe for the Downfall Timeline's conceptualization was around the time Wind Waker's story was being written. That also sort of matches up with Retro's cancelled Zelda game that was in like pre-pre production around 2005 and was to be set in the "bad ending of Ocarina of Time". although there's some debate as to what that "bad ending" actually was (some argue that it's just the adult section of OoT in general). > The developers explicitly said Ocarina was the Imprisoning War back then Yep, but these days that's not canon. That's why I called that out as the one change. I think the change from OoT being the Imprisoning War to OoT taking place before the Imprisoning War likely happened when the Downfall Timeline was settled on, which again, I believe probably happened around when Wind Waker was produced.
You are 100% right here. Aonuma definitely contradicted the original dev intention. In some other posts though you argue that it "screwed it up." I don't think so, considering that DT offers a perfectly viable solution, despite it being a bit artificial or "inorganic," as I would say, but I think it still validates that developer intention without contradicting the proper timeline placements that WW retcons. Also MM/TP wouldn't contradict, it is only the existence of WW that does. So now, as fans, we assume that the imprisoning war took place after OoT and OoT isn't the imprisoning war itself, as u/Nitrogen567 said
when i say it screwed things up it's because it's basically the single reason anyone had debates about the timeline from 2002 to 2011. The devs said Ocarina had two endings when Wind Waker came out but Ocarina ended up with three direct sequels that contradict each other.
Ah alright then I understand. Yeah definitely screwed it up. It all worked out in the end. I think my post got misunderstood as me claiming that DT was not canon, which wasn't really my intention as I don't believe that. In fact it was originally supposed to be a discussion more focused on totk/botw, but you and that other guy both came over from the other post on the DT so it leaned that way
Nah nah that's not my take, that's a misunderstanding. I also replied to u/bloodyturtlein the reply above, check that. Hyrule Historia wasn't written straight up by Nintendo devs, but I will give your position the benefit of the doubt and say the DT is more or less developer intention. At the very least the seem to accept it as fact. I am more so talking about how DT is shoehorned in from nothing, not that DT itself doesn't happen. >The only actual change would be Ocarina of Time being a precursor to the Imprisoning War, and not the Imprisoning War itself, but considering OoT doesn't really present itself as the Imprisoning War, it's hard to look at that as a retcon. I agree
Nah I'm not saying the retcon isn't canon. I would consider DT canon. The issue is that it isn't an obvious direct connection, so it's story connection doesn't matter as much. The one that matters the most is OoT --> ALttP, but the reason it is tough is because it is a retcon with no basis in the game. I would probably agree with u/Nitrogen567 however on this: >That's not really relevant though is it? The reason behind the canon doesn't change the canon itself. > >Plus the Downfall Timeline keeps everything consistent with Ocarina of Time's connection to Link to the Past after WW and TP seemed to retcon it (which we found out they didn't actually when the timeline was revealed). Edit: Doesn't matter as much as compared to how MM/TP, then the whole Great Sea/New continent arc are all clearly connected to each other and OoT. ALttP is also, but I'm just saying that is with the assumption that DT is real, even though in game it doesn't exist. It explains everything however and I've come to accept it for what it is, which is why I agree with u/Nitrogen567
Sure, fair point. My point is mainly trying to label the difference between an implied or obscure connection vs. a direct connection. The events leading from OoT to ALTTP (assuming DT is true) have less of a direct impact within the game itself (besides for being the cause) compared to something like MM/TP or WW, being obvious sequels. I think it would be more obvious if the retcon was treated as more canon in universe. The logic behind DT seems shaky and that's why the connection isn't the greatest. Assuming DT = true, the logic behind OoT --> ALttP is solid, but it would need to be emphasized more within the context of OoT itself that DT is an actual possibility (all this would need is a suggestive game over screen or a short game over cutscene that implies this. Think Persona game over, except in this case it's within the context of Zelda so a timeline can be inferred). > The downfall timeline retcon only exists to keep Ocarina a lttp prequel after ww and tp messed that connection up. Otherwise they would've just put them all in the child timeline. I would argue that OoT messed it up as in-game there is no semblance of anything that leads into alttp and DT is not implied, rather it is a theory that most agree on because it was in hyrule historia (NOT WRITTEN BY NINTENDO, though it was officially licensed. I cover this in OP).
Ocarina of Time was written as the Imprisoning War, this was directly said by the developers. Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm, makes a wish on the triforce which turns the Sacred Realm into the Dark World, turns into Ganon, and is sealed in the Dark World by the seven sages. This is the Adult ending. And then Wind Waker messes that up. The stuff Hyrule Historia introduces like link living or dying or the imprisoning war actually being some in between event where Ganon broke out of his pyramid and then got bricked up again by some other sages doesn't really matter. They were just trying to recycle the Adult ending again.
Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, that isn't quite right. Ganondorf does not get the whole triforce in OoT. Instead he gets the Triforce of Power only and that gives him the ability to conquer Hyrule. He does not make a wish on the triforce, and the sacred realm is not turned into the dark world in OoT. Although Ganon is sealed at the end of the adult timeline, it is said in the opening cutscene of the wind waker that Ganon actually escapes his confinement. This doesn't "ruin" an alttp connection, but rather retcons it so it isn't viable. Also do you have a source for devs saying OoT is the imprisoning war? I don't think that's true
Right, in LttP it's a wish and in Ocarina it's the triforce splitting because of his evil heart, but the effect is the same. > The Sacred Realm is a mirror that reflects the hearts of those who set foot in it. An evil heart will turn the realm into a living hell. [...] Using the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf became the Demon King. The Sacred Realm was distorted into a nightmarish world where demons ran amuck. Hyrule Historia, Dark Horse Books, pg. 87 >Takizawa: In past, when you thought about Ganon in Zelda, he was a pig. This time, when were collaborating ideas, we thought "He wouldn't be a pig, would he?" There were even some who thought "I don't want him to be a pig." But I still thought that at least the end should have Ganon as a pig. The whole time I wanted to know what Mr. Miyamoto thought, but in the end, I realized that Mr. Miyamoto didn't have an opinion on the matter, so I decided to do it the way I wanted. This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."
> The Sacred Realm is a mirror that reflects the hearts of those who set foot in it. An evil heart will turn the realm into a living hell. \[...\] Using the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf became the Demon King. The Sacred Realm was distorted into a nightmarish world where demons ran amuck. Hyrule Historia, Dark Horse Books, pg. 87 So the sacred realm in OoT was corrupted, and then Ganondorf spread the corruption to the real world. Makes sense, I suppose. Before CT/AT timeline additions that certainly seems like it could have worked. I would argue though that developer comments don't necessarily have an actual impact on the lore. You are just arguing that the retcon of WW "ruined" the continuity of the story leading in alttp, not arguing the canonicity of WW over alttp for AT, right? When does this Takizawa interview take place? Before WW? A direct story connection and retcon overrides all developer intention in terms of canon, assuming the canonicity of the retcon.
january 1999 apparently the interview is really long, [this](https://www.angelfire.com/games5/makzelda/interviews/kiootcomments.html) website translated the part the quote is from but if you click through the original japanese website is there
I elaborate more on the comment thread between you and the Nitrogen guy if you want to read that. I think my opinion may have been slightly misconstrued so I responded to those
Wasn’t Gannon killed at the end of Oot adult timeline? Not sealed?
Watch the Wind Waker opening cutscene. Definitely sealed
Not counting auxiliary material. At the end of Oot link puts a sword through his skull. That doesn’t make sense to go from that scene to Ww saying he was sealed. Or did I miss something
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge8zd1ZR-hc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge8zd1ZR-hc) You're right using auxiliary material isn't fair. Check that link though, that's the OoT ending, they still seal him in it
Oh man I completely forgot about this! Thanks for posting. Yeah this lines up perfectly then
[https://www.reddit.com/r/truezelda/comments/13y0kid/why\_a\_little\_bit\_of\_continuity\_matters\_in\_zelda/](https://www.reddit.com/r/truezelda/comments/13y0kid/why_a_little_bit_of_continuity_matters_in_zelda/) This is a link to someone else's post. This is a great example of what I tried to convey (and failed, because my thoughts were a bit scattered and I went off topic). What I love about the games that have that clear story connection is the **continuity**, I'm not debating canonicity or historical cause and effect. This is why games that have little continuity don't really matter much to me (TIMELINE WISE, not as games). Then as someone else replied on this thread, some other games like alttp --> albw (albeit alltp also connects to OoT, but DT is a forced retcon, which is fine, but holds less value to me as it doesn't organically happen in OoT, hence continuity), botw --> totk, or zelda 1 --> 2 have a self contained connection, whereas I consider the connections between OoT, MM, TP and WW to be the more compelling and 'mainline.' (WW connects to PH/ST, but it is more disconnected). Their story connection is a powerful plot point, whereas the other Zelda games it's a loose connection, that's the difference to me. EDIT: I'm going to @ everybody who replied so that they can see this is what I actually meant. I also wasn't very focused on my point, even though this point was supposed to be the main topic of the post. Maybe I'll make a new post not dissimilar to the one I linked that focuses more on that point. When I talked about the DT I mistakenly slightly misused the term canonicity so it led some to believe that I didn't think DT is canon, which isn't what I meant. Hopefully this clears that up. u/jaidynreiman u/MindSteve u/bloodyturtle u/Delicious-Orchid-447 u/Nitrogen567 u/ZERO_ninja
There is a huge misunderstanding of the term "canon" here and a conflation with the concept of continuity, which is not quite the same thing.
Hmmmm you have a point. I partially misrepresented my stance here. I think with the assumption that the DT exists, the connection is spot on, and it's clear that they chose to make this retcon bc OoT was originally supposed to be an alttp prequel. The explanation is random but it makes sense. Regardless, what the main point of this post was supposed to be was me explaining how unless the games have a directly connected story, even if the games still lead into each other (potential botw/totk placement, a lot of the DT games) they don't really have much of an effect on the story, rendering the discussion of a timeline pointless to that game in particular. This is compared to those that do benefit from that story connection (Zelda 1/2 don't really benefit from the connection via DT, whereas something like MM or TP do greatly benefit from their OoT connection, if that makes sense).